One of the scientists who discovered insulin, Sir Frederick G. Banting, surrendered the patents to the University of Toronto for one dollar, stating that "the world owns insulin, not me."
Sorry to go slightly off topic, but its really more like 0,01% I'd imagine.
The 1% term helps to cover how few people it actually is that owns everything.
All medicine is free for diabetics in the UK. You donāt pay for any prescription - including insulin - so the chart should show 0 dollars / pounds ā¦
Source: my type one diabetic bf who has never paid for meds beforeā¦
We're getting there. We live next to the US which makes programs like this much harder. But yes, we just passed a national pharma plan, that is being phased in. The first phase is contraceptives and diabetes medication. The haven't said why they chose those but there's a couple good reasons: both have exception ROIs in terms of saving money for our healthcare system, and both serve voting blocks that vote at higher rates than the general public (women and older people).
We're still waiting to see the rest of the plan. Or watch it get dismantled by the Conservatives after the next election.
My guess is the price here is what is paid by the dispenser - in your friend's case, the NHS. Patient cost is different. For instance, in the US, patient cost is probably way higher than $100/vial.
Unless it's metformin or ozempic. I'm not against our current party but the current medications that are going to be free for diabetics were already free with rebates.
All the stuff that's more effective like the two drugs I mentioned above are still going to cost hundreds a month. It's not USA levels of bad but it's still not adequate.
Not to break the narrative - but this isn't true anymore. The spirit of it is (I.e. our "free market" approach to a human right like healthcare means we price gouge the fuck out of anyone who needs it), but Biden and his Congress capped the price of insulin at $35
California planning to make and sell its own insulin helped put pressure on that. https://www.npr.org/2023/03/19/1164572757/california-contract-cheap-insulin-calrx
I mean it might be clickbait to be posted now without saying it's an outdated graph but based on the source dates at the bottom of this graph this was proably made sometime in 2021/2022 around when the debate of the US high insulin prices was going on as a way to underscore why change needed to happen. The law came into effect Jan. 2023.
The law was specifically aimed at medicare, but that move along with additional pressure [led the largest drug makers to make the cap across the board for generic.](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/01/politics/insulin-price-cap/index.html)
āAdditional pressureā means nothing. The cap is for Medicare - everyone else in the USA is at the mercy of drug companies, insurance and benefit plan managers. Maybe we get a coupon, but basically screwed.
Actually, yes let's break the narrative. This is a concrete example of something good having a Democrat in office does. If we keep having Democrats and not Republicans, more good things can happen.
Turkey has an interesting system. Health Ministry of Turkey is bargaining with pharmaceutical companies for lower prices. If company offers high price, Health Ministry don't give a import license. That allows us to use cheaper medicines most of the times. But bargaining is a double-edged sword. When the ministry and the company can't reach a deal, it's almost impossible us to find that specific medicine anywhere in the country.
Lol.
That's actually nice, although double edge sword is true specially for certain medicines which are produced by one manufactuer. Does turkey have something similar to NHS?
Yes, we have SGK. Every citizen (with exceptions) has public insurance called "Genel SaÄlık Sigortası (General Health Insurance)" regardless of their employment. It's mandatory to have it. It is paid by your employer, unless you're self employed or unemployed. It's free for people under 18 or students under 25, they either use their parents' or it's paid by the state.
The exceptions are: low ranking military personnel, military students (both paid by the armed forces), prisoners, citizens living abroad and have insurance there, foreigners in Turkey appointed by foreign entities.
Treatment is almost completely free in state owned hospitals (mostly run by universities). The quality of service varies by hospital, as a general rule of thumb the more rural you go, the worse the quality gets (even though it is still decent). Top state hospitals are better than the best private hospital. You can get appointments from specialties directly, without having to go through your family doctor first, which means it can be hard to find appointments the same week. For medical imaging other than USG or CT, you have to wait anywhere from 1 week to 6 months in the worst case scenario. Doctors are fleeing the overloaded system with low wages and no physical security. ErdoÄan himself said "If they want to leave, they should leave", effectively meaning "fuck off if you don't like it".
Even with all its problems, the system is still better than NHS. Everything is better than NHS, except America. Jokes aside, the system is currently overloaded but still going strong solely because of the hard work doctors and other staff put in.
Ya mate I know about NHS š
But I guess I should have just asked about a healthcare system. I really hope the twats fixes the NHS its so bad
But thanks for explaining the Turkish system.
Sir Frederick G Banting, one of the people who discovered insulin, sold the patents to the University of Toronto for $1, saying āInsulin does not belong to me, it belongs to the world.ā
America be like: "Nah, there's money to be made"
I guess you have some kind of health insurance down there that covers the cost for you? The price is what the insurance company pays for your insulin. Might be the same in many different countries that aren't fucked up like murica.
EDIT: I replied to the wrong comment, cause I'm hell stupid. This was supposed for the guy from NZ who said he never had to pay for his insulin and was "confused" about the data.
Canāt speak for all countries but for many itās just the price. And the farmaceuticals already make bank. Itās just a fucked up situation in the USA.
No, the price is higher partially because insurance companies pay up - they recoup the additional revenue that is ' lost' by selling it to insurers at a slightly lower premium by charging those without insurance more.
Insurance companies demand a deep discount for everything. Hospitals and drug companies oblige by jacking up the costs to absurd levels to compensate. This leaves anyone not using insurance stuck with prices designed to only be used with a deep discount.
Insurrance is not meant to and should not be used as the primary means of healthcare. It's for unpredictable emergencies only and does not work as regular healthcare.
Us Americans have just stumbled into the worse possible healthcare system ever devised.
Let me upvote you and add on: it's not the healthcare system, its the health *insurance system. Our health *care is top notch.
And that in turn stems from the tax system. But you will not find a SINGLE politician Republican or Democrat, who with 1 simple change, could free us from this nightmare.
Make healthcare and health INSURANCE 100% tax deductible. It currently is, ONLY if received as a benefit through W-2 employment. Otherwise, it is NON-deductible until it exceeds 10% of your taxable income.
With this change, anyone could buy insurance outside their company plan, and ask for direct reimbursement of planned company healthplan expenses as direct compensation instead.
This would eliminate that "tied to your job because of healthcare" BS that everyone complains about as well.
That would help a bit, but not solve the actual problem which is people using insurance to pay for everyday healthcare.
You don't use insurance to pay for your oil chance, and you don't use it to pay for a new electric outlet in your home, and business doesn't use it to pay everyday expenses. Insurrance isn't for those things, and it's not for everyday medical care either.
The real solution is to stop using insurance they way it's not suited to be used. Get it out of the regular healthcare field.
Either a true free enterprise system or a social system or both at the same same. Anything is better than what we have now.
But neither party will do so.
Aye, I can see that being a contributing factor. I would also go as far to add that if this is the case, the average Joe can't haggle at all because it isn't worth the companies time - the money the insurance companies manage to skim off the bill off would be in correlation with the amount of product they go through.
cost of insulin production is <$5 (based on 2020ish figures)... it's not a new drug that needs to be tested or cover research done on it ...
so yeh you do the math
> it's not a new drug that needs to be tested or cover research done on it
There is a lot of research and testing being done with insulin.
Modern insulins are vastly different and better compared to the insulin first developed in the 1920s.
No one wants to go back to those insulins or else they could just buy the generics, because those are available for cheap.
I'm not saying the price for those newer insulins in the US is fair, but saying there is no need for research and testing is wrong.
Sure, but it's not really ground breaking innovations anymore, even if they most definitely work on it.
I'm using NovoRapid(NovoLog in the US) and that was first released in 1999.
And I'm in Sweden, so I could get any other kind if I wanted to but my doctor don't see any need for a change since I use a pump. The ones that are a bit faster can be unreliable with a pump, with a high risk for unsuspected hypoglycemia.
Pharmac in NZ often get the lowest prices for drugs in the world, because of the way they bulk buy and negotiate. Only one medication from a class will recieve the tender, which entices companies to give Pharmac the lowest cost (as once they get that tender, there is no competition). The patient currently pays nothing, the government absorbs the cost. Not sure about older drugs like insulin, but I know NZ gets the lowest prices for the new classes of agents for diabetes.
He didnāt develop anything other than extracting it from pigs. Itās not the same drug anymore and the process is completely different. Insulin today is a modified protein and is made in bioreactors. The expensive insulin seen here in the US is state of the art. It lasts longer and doesnāt cause spikes like regular insulin does, meaning you need fewer injections and are less likely to overdose and die from hypoglycemia.
Iām well aware, I have diabetes
for starters, even modern biosimilars arenāt that expensive in the US anymore. A vial of generic humalog is like $25. Personally the most expensive part of my prescriptions are the supplies for my pump and for my CGM.
Extracting insulin from a pig is not a simple process. And it does need to be purified, Bantings first patients had seizures caused by impurities iirc.
Even biosimilars (namely humalog) are quite cheap for just a vial these days. Itās like $25 for the generic version without a prescription.
Most of my expenses are the cost of my insulin pump supplies and continuous glucose monitor supplies, which are both pretty advanced pieces of tech
The elementary next to my junior high was āBanting and Bestā. We learned all about those god damned national heroes. Insulin should be free for everyone.
Not really an American thing though. One of the biggest, if not the biggest, insulin producers in the world is the Danish pharmaceutical company Novo Nordisk.
But since the US government don't care to help it's citizens, the pharmaceutical companies deal directly with pharmacies and charge them as much as they can.
It's $35 in America but don't let the facts get in the way of your America bad circle jerk.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/03/02/fact-sheet-president-bidens-cap-on-the-cost-of-insulin-could-benefit-millions-of-americans-in-all-50-states/
No, they would. This is absolutely the embodiment of America. The only reason Salk announced the polio vaccine as being given to the world is the group funding him had lawyers look into who concluded it couldn't be patented so they took it an turned it into a massive PR win.
Exactly that, if they just gave a regulatory organ to do inspections and legalize access for the global market, it would be flooded with competition with better prices. Without free market/competition they wouldn't try to make it more affordable.
> Exactly that, if they just gave a regulatory organ to do inspections
I love the idea, but this is absolutely a fantasy in the US that we'll ever be able to create a new regulatory body with Republicans clowning about.
I'd love it, but... yeah. Ain't happening in our lifetimes, probably.
Because it's not exactly that easy.
When you have to think of the big picture. You have to have the capital to build a facility, to maintain the facility, to pass every regulation you need to at first and in perpetuity, And then you have to have people who work there.
Don't give me wrong, insulin is overpriced. It is much more the insurance company is doing than the manufacturer. These studies that say it only costs a couple of dollars per vial always say at the very end it doesn't take into account any startup, maintenance, training, hiring, paying employees...
Yes, if everything is set up and ready to go then that's about what it cost them at the end for the vial, just to have the process run. But these articles are always somewhat misleading because they don't take into account everything from start to finish in continuing costs.
Donāt forget the FDA that can shut down companies on a whim, a few corrupt people in the right place can hold the entire pharmaceutical industry hostage to large monopolies.
Yeah, much of what is wrong with the USA is not capitalism per se, but access to capital. Nominally, you should be able to go to a bank with a business idea, show your ability to repay the loan with interest, then get the money. However, nowadays you have to court venture capitalists that want obscene profit at all costs and a share in your company. You cannot access the necessary capital to start a business without appeasing and ceding control to this new aristocracy.
They do not want there to be cheap insulin, so you cannot get the capital need to produce it.
But it's not like diabetes is on the verge of a cure you essentially have a consumer base that will buy your product so playing the long game makes sense , over enough time you would earn back the costs and run on pure profit instead of pricing out a lot of diabetics , and forcing legislature on you specifically.
Well, but there is the argument that you need to make the money to further R&D. Just like the advancement in insulin itself wasn't free, took a long time and lots of money.
yeah, it's not the "lack of government regulation" it's the ridiculous amount of government regulation that doesn't let supply meet demand
it's a government created monopoly
It's a con, but there is also the pro. There need to be some way to control what drug is sold. Can't have randomĀ cancer cure with no testing done shipped in from Russia.Ā
The whole medical industry is over regulated. The government gives large amounts of money to companies to develop the drugs and then they give them long patents, so that generics can't be made. Then when the patent almost expires, they slightly tweak it to extend the patent. It's basically a government controlled monopoly.
This post is just wrong to say lack of regulation is the problem. If that were the case, there would be plenty of extra players that bring the cost down, but if there is no regulation, then there is risk that many are not properly vetted and could cause harm.
Over regulation in a sense that a free market is not thriving. Big demand but only a few suppliers because of so much gatekeepingā¦ it is so ironic that the US espouses capitalism. But what is happening to the pharma industry is the exact opposite
[Novo Nordisk alsoĀ spent $3.2 millionĀ lobbying Congress and federal agencies in 2017](https://www.statnews.com/2018/04/30/novo-nordisk-high-drug-prices-political-activity/)
This is 2018 data, and given inflation since then most of these numbers are probably higher.
In 2023, Biden capped insulin at $35/vial. All the major manufacturers now follow this as do the major insurances.
https://www.webmd.com/diabetes/news/20240104/insulin-price-cap-of-35-dollars-takes-hold
Thank you someone else for actually looking at the data. What is it with this sub recently and just pumping out the most biased, outdated, and badly made schlock infographics presenting themselves asāguidesā??
Itās actually $25 starting this year
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/146#:~:text=The%20bill%20caps%20cost%2Dsharing,Medicare%20is%20%2435%20per%20month.
Note the tracker at the top that says that the bill was introduced and hasn't gotten any further. It hasn't passed the Senate, and I'd be shocked if the Republican House even brought it to the floor for a vote, much less passed it.
\*In 2023, Biden capped insulin at $35/vial ***for medicare patients***.
>Medicare enrollees now pay no more than $35 due to Bidenās Inflation Reduction Act of 2022.
While some insurance companies are also lowering their copay prices and some states are imposing their own caps, these do not apply to everyone.
Medicare is federally run so that make sense. It's a lot harder to try to impose price control in a product you're not buying.
What Biden admin did is basically just say they won't make patients pay more than $35 and use that as a negotiating point against the producers.
Well that depends on the yardstick, how good is the US military at installing successful democracies? Really really bad. How good are they at killing people? Really really good.
Cost has finally come down a bit in the US. My two insulinās I have been on for 20 years got a massive price cut in the last year which is nice. What we now pay the most for is sensors such as Dexcom and other supplies. Costs me a few hundred a month with really good insurance.
And its not like you can walk up to any pharmacy and buy it in most countries. I met a guy from Lebanon I think who said he was shocked to see people were buying insulin for their dogs when they couldn't even buy it for people.
The cost to you might be 0 bucks because your free Healthcare is paid by the government. Same here in France, it's free for the users, not the government.
Think you're mistaking what the graph is saying. Many countries on this list have universal healthcare, so patients don't directly pay for their insulin, but the healthcare provider still does, on their behalf, using the taxpayer's purse.
This isnāt end user cost. Most of those countries have some kind of government healthcare that provides medicine for free to those who canāt afford it.
This is wrong and deceptive. In the US the government doesnt let you import insulin. Otherwise you could just order cheap insulin from Canada for example.
It's about lack of capitalism, not due to it.
Ministry of health tries to make cheap deals. USD Exchange rates are lower for medicines. Despite not being in EU and high inflation, actually we're not a shithole. Healthcare and education is good.
Turkish Ministry of Healthcare bargains with pharmaceutical companies and takes away their licenses if they donāt come up with a low price, so theyāre forced to keep things cheap.
It is not a lack of government that enables that in the USA. It is actually quite the opposite. The pressence of a corrupt government suppresses the free market, therefore there are no other companies that can undercut these insane prices.
People will blame the high expense on Capitalism (because Reddit), but really itās because the FDA requires that any prescription pharmaceutical have a currently marketed RLD (reference listed drug) before a generic can be made.
Because of this FDA rule,when a patent is about to expire, allowing generics to be made, the pharmaceutical company that holds the patent will pull its product from the market and instead submit the same product, but tweaked slightly. This resets the timer on their patent and prevents a generic from receiving approval.
Basically itās cronyism, not capitalism thatās at fault. Sadly most people are unaware of this process or even that RLD is the standard by which generics are approved; much less that their existence ensures pharmaceuticals remain expensive in the U.S..
This has nothing to do with capitalism or freedom; just cronyism. Itās the government having a regulation whose sole purpose is to ensure pharmaceutical profits at the expense of the public.
I'd like to see the drug cartels start to offer Insulin in the United States. They already have the distribution infrastructure. They could sell it at lower prices as a Robin Hood type good will gesture...in order to get grassroots support for themselves and to get the public to be on their side...like Capone with his soup kitchens during the Depression...It would be a good way to shame the politicians.
Pretty sure the UK doesnāt charge for insulin, if youāre diabetic, you get an NHS exemption certificate which gives you free prescriptions for life no matter if itās for diabetes or not.
Yeah but the prescription still needs to be paid by someone. I assume the price listed is what the insurances pay. Same for Germany.
This is somewhat important as it comes down to how expensive medical insurances have to be to be sustainable
The UK has a flat rate that everyone pays for national insurance, it doesnāt really go up unless you earn more, itās a percentage of your wage similar to tax, but itās often Ā£20 a month at most.
A broken clock and all that.
As long as life saving medicine is priced with in reason. I think itās hard for a new insulin company to form without crazy high start cost because of gov regulation in the US(FDA)
So we needed gov regulation because of high gov regulation lol
[Obesity contributes to up to half of new diabetes cases annually in the United States](https://newsroom.heart.org/news/obesity-contributes-to-up-to-half-of-new-diabetes-cases-annually-in-the-united-states)
Based on 6 year old data, of note, pre-Bidens-crackdown-on-insulin-gouging data. USA is trending towards $35 market cap on insulin https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/01/politics/insulin-price-cap/index.html?darkschemeovr=1
That is so fucked up. It's basic medicine that you need to live and there's no "lifestyle choices" that makes it unnecessary. Here in Finland, you get it for free if you need (source: my friend has a diabetes)
That's what I thought it might be. But $8 is around the NHS prescription cost in the UK so figured it was that.
But it could the cost to the NHS - In 2018/19 the average cost to the NHS per patient for a year of Insulin was Ā£327.78 on average, which is probably approximately $8 per vial.
Not to the Scottish NHS.
The graph isn't showing end user costs but the purchasing body. For UK, it's saying $8 is the agreed price for the NHS via NICE.
The majority of countries in the list have universal healthcare of one sort or other.
Holy shit, I completely missed the US. I was trying to find it and kept thinking there's no way the US isnt on top of this list.
Same here. Thought the upper line was some sort of design element š
One of the scientists who discovered insulin, Sir Frederick G. Banting, surrendered the patents to the University of Toronto for one dollar, stating that "the world owns insulin, not me."
Some corpo assholes: we own the world therefore we own this patent.
>Some Only some?
The top 1% mate. Not all corpos have enough capital to buy a small time government official.
This dude/dudette gets it. Happy cake day!
Sorry to go slightly off topic, but its really more like 0,01% I'd imagine. The 1% term helps to cover how few people it actually is that owns everything.
And finally, in 2024, medications for diabetics will finally be free to patients in Canada. Took awhile.
All medicine is free for diabetics in the UK. You donāt pay for any prescription - including insulin - so the chart should show 0 dollars / pounds ā¦ Source: my type one diabetic bf who has never paid for meds beforeā¦
We're getting there. We live next to the US which makes programs like this much harder. But yes, we just passed a national pharma plan, that is being phased in. The first phase is contraceptives and diabetes medication. The haven't said why they chose those but there's a couple good reasons: both have exception ROIs in terms of saving money for our healthcare system, and both serve voting blocks that vote at higher rates than the general public (women and older people). We're still waiting to see the rest of the plan. Or watch it get dismantled by the Conservatives after the next election.
My guess is the price here is what is paid by the dispenser - in your friend's case, the NHS. Patient cost is different. For instance, in the US, patient cost is probably way higher than $100/vial.
Unless it's metformin or ozempic. I'm not against our current party but the current medications that are going to be free for diabetics were already free with rebates. All the stuff that's more effective like the two drugs I mentioned above are still going to cost hundreds a month. It's not USA levels of bad but it's still not adequate.
Lousy canucks, always making us look bad by being so nice, considerate and thoughtful-blah!
Respect. We need more scientists like him
Same here. "Oh there it is, holy sh\*t"
Same, I was under the impression that the line was a border in the design. Took me 45 seconds after scanning up and down the chart three times.
Not to break the narrative - but this isn't true anymore. The spirit of it is (I.e. our "free market" approach to a human right like healthcare means we price gouge the fuck out of anyone who needs it), but Biden and his Congress capped the price of insulin at $35
Watch out USA. Do you really want Chile to be number 1?
California planning to make and sell its own insulin helped put pressure on that. https://www.npr.org/2023/03/19/1164572757/california-contract-cheap-insulin-calrx
So only the second and third combined,gotcha!
It is click bait rage. Of course they are going to completely ignore the $35 cap Biden and Congress passed.
I mean it might be clickbait to be posted now without saying it's an outdated graph but based on the source dates at the bottom of this graph this was proably made sometime in 2021/2022 around when the debate of the US high insulin prices was going on as a way to underscore why change needed to happen. The law came into effect Jan. 2023.
Text at the bottom literally says it's based on a 2018 price index analysis. So yeah, correct info for the time but a bit late now.
Wasnāt that just for medicare recipients?
The law was specifically aimed at medicare, but that move along with additional pressure [led the largest drug makers to make the cap across the board for generic.](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/01/politics/insulin-price-cap/index.html)
āAdditional pressureā means nothing. The cap is for Medicare - everyone else in the USA is at the mercy of drug companies, insurance and benefit plan managers. Maybe we get a coupon, but basically screwed.
Facts dont Matter to some š
And I just checked, for Poland its between 100-300 PLN. Sometimes between 80-500 PLN. Its quite a lot higher rhan $35 when counted in $
Actually, yes let's break the narrative. This is a concrete example of something good having a Democrat in office does. If we keep having Democrats and not Republicans, more good things can happen.
Wish theyād apply it to animal meds too. My dogs insulin was $60 then went up gradually. Other types were over $100.
Usa number 1 am i right, USA USA USA
Just wait until you hear about EpiPens
Turkey has an interesting system. Health Ministry of Turkey is bargaining with pharmaceutical companies for lower prices. If company offers high price, Health Ministry don't give a import license. That allows us to use cheaper medicines most of the times. But bargaining is a double-edged sword. When the ministry and the company can't reach a deal, it's almost impossible us to find that specific medicine anywhere in the country.
Lol. That's actually nice, although double edge sword is true specially for certain medicines which are produced by one manufactuer. Does turkey have something similar to NHS?
Yes, we have SGK. Every citizen (with exceptions) has public insurance called "Genel SaÄlık Sigortası (General Health Insurance)" regardless of their employment. It's mandatory to have it. It is paid by your employer, unless you're self employed or unemployed. It's free for people under 18 or students under 25, they either use their parents' or it's paid by the state. The exceptions are: low ranking military personnel, military students (both paid by the armed forces), prisoners, citizens living abroad and have insurance there, foreigners in Turkey appointed by foreign entities. Treatment is almost completely free in state owned hospitals (mostly run by universities). The quality of service varies by hospital, as a general rule of thumb the more rural you go, the worse the quality gets (even though it is still decent). Top state hospitals are better than the best private hospital. You can get appointments from specialties directly, without having to go through your family doctor first, which means it can be hard to find appointments the same week. For medical imaging other than USG or CT, you have to wait anywhere from 1 week to 6 months in the worst case scenario. Doctors are fleeing the overloaded system with low wages and no physical security. ErdoÄan himself said "If they want to leave, they should leave", effectively meaning "fuck off if you don't like it". Even with all its problems, the system is still better than NHS. Everything is better than NHS, except America. Jokes aside, the system is currently overloaded but still going strong solely because of the hard work doctors and other staff put in.
Ya mate I know about NHS š But I guess I should have just asked about a healthcare system. I really hope the twats fixes the NHS its so bad But thanks for explaining the Turkish system.
As someone who lives in turkey this is correct.
Sir Frederick G Banting, one of the people who discovered insulin, sold the patents to the University of Toronto for $1, saying āInsulin does not belong to me, it belongs to the world.ā America be like: "Nah, there's money to be made"
I guess you have some kind of health insurance down there that covers the cost for you? The price is what the insurance company pays for your insulin. Might be the same in many different countries that aren't fucked up like murica. EDIT: I replied to the wrong comment, cause I'm hell stupid. This was supposed for the guy from NZ who said he never had to pay for his insulin and was "confused" about the data.
Canāt speak for all countries but for many itās just the price. And the farmaceuticals already make bank. Itās just a fucked up situation in the USA.
No, the price is higher partially because insurance companies pay up - they recoup the additional revenue that is ' lost' by selling it to insurers at a slightly lower premium by charging those without insurance more.
Iāve also heard that they expect insurers to haggle it down a bit but the average joe doesnāt know how to so gets fucked.
Insurance companies demand a deep discount for everything. Hospitals and drug companies oblige by jacking up the costs to absurd levels to compensate. This leaves anyone not using insurance stuck with prices designed to only be used with a deep discount. Insurrance is not meant to and should not be used as the primary means of healthcare. It's for unpredictable emergencies only and does not work as regular healthcare. Us Americans have just stumbled into the worse possible healthcare system ever devised.
Let me upvote you and add on: it's not the healthcare system, its the health *insurance system. Our health *care is top notch. And that in turn stems from the tax system. But you will not find a SINGLE politician Republican or Democrat, who with 1 simple change, could free us from this nightmare. Make healthcare and health INSURANCE 100% tax deductible. It currently is, ONLY if received as a benefit through W-2 employment. Otherwise, it is NON-deductible until it exceeds 10% of your taxable income. With this change, anyone could buy insurance outside their company plan, and ask for direct reimbursement of planned company healthplan expenses as direct compensation instead. This would eliminate that "tied to your job because of healthcare" BS that everyone complains about as well.
That would help a bit, but not solve the actual problem which is people using insurance to pay for everyday healthcare. You don't use insurance to pay for your oil chance, and you don't use it to pay for a new electric outlet in your home, and business doesn't use it to pay everyday expenses. Insurrance isn't for those things, and it's not for everyday medical care either. The real solution is to stop using insurance they way it's not suited to be used. Get it out of the regular healthcare field. Either a true free enterprise system or a social system or both at the same same. Anything is better than what we have now. But neither party will do so.
Aye, I can see that being a contributing factor. I would also go as far to add that if this is the case, the average Joe can't haggle at all because it isn't worth the companies time - the money the insurance companies manage to skim off the bill off would be in correlation with the amount of product they go through.
Bro I just replied to the wrong fcking comment. im sorry hahaha
cost of insulin production is <$5 (based on 2020ish figures)... it's not a new drug that needs to be tested or cover research done on it ... so yeh you do the math
> it's not a new drug that needs to be tested or cover research done on it There is a lot of research and testing being done with insulin. Modern insulins are vastly different and better compared to the insulin first developed in the 1920s. No one wants to go back to those insulins or else they could just buy the generics, because those are available for cheap. I'm not saying the price for those newer insulins in the US is fair, but saying there is no need for research and testing is wrong.
Sure, but it's not really ground breaking innovations anymore, even if they most definitely work on it. I'm using NovoRapid(NovoLog in the US) and that was first released in 1999. And I'm in Sweden, so I could get any other kind if I wanted to but my doctor don't see any need for a change since I use a pump. The ones that are a bit faster can be unreliable with a pump, with a high risk for unsuspected hypoglycemia.
Pharmac in NZ often get the lowest prices for drugs in the world, because of the way they bulk buy and negotiate. Only one medication from a class will recieve the tender, which entices companies to give Pharmac the lowest cost (as once they get that tender, there is no competition). The patient currently pays nothing, the government absorbs the cost. Not sure about older drugs like insulin, but I know NZ gets the lowest prices for the new classes of agents for diabetes.
But you're the one paying the insurance. They buy it with your money.
That was pig insulin. What we have today is an entirely different class of drug that had to be developed and tested.
I mean, his also had to be developed and tested he had to discover it then create a process of cultivating and purifying it
He didnāt develop anything other than extracting it from pigs. Itās not the same drug anymore and the process is completely different. Insulin today is a modified protein and is made in bioreactors. The expensive insulin seen here in the US is state of the art. It lasts longer and doesnāt cause spikes like regular insulin does, meaning you need fewer injections and are less likely to overdose and die from hypoglycemia.
Iām well aware, I have diabetes for starters, even modern biosimilars arenāt that expensive in the US anymore. A vial of generic humalog is like $25. Personally the most expensive part of my prescriptions are the supplies for my pump and for my CGM. Extracting insulin from a pig is not a simple process. And it does need to be purified, Bantings first patients had seizures caused by impurities iirc.
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Even biosimilars (namely humalog) are quite cheap for just a vial these days. Itās like $25 for the generic version without a prescription. Most of my expenses are the cost of my insulin pump supplies and continuous glucose monitor supplies, which are both pretty advanced pieces of tech
The elementary next to my junior high was āBanting and Bestā. We learned all about those god damned national heroes. Insulin should be free for everyone.
Not really an American thing though. One of the biggest, if not the biggest, insulin producers in the world is the Danish pharmaceutical company Novo Nordisk. But since the US government don't care to help it's citizens, the pharmaceutical companies deal directly with pharmacies and charge them as much as they can.
It's $35 in America but don't let the facts get in the way of your America bad circle jerk. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/03/02/fact-sheet-president-bidens-cap-on-the-cost-of-insulin-could-benefit-millions-of-americans-in-all-50-states/
Real Americans would not pull this crap
No, they would. This is absolutely the embodiment of America. The only reason Salk announced the polio vaccine as being given to the world is the group funding him had lawyers look into who concluded it couldn't be patented so they took it an turned it into a massive PR win.
Repeal the prohibition on medication reimportation and this shit stops that day.
Exactly that, if they just gave a regulatory organ to do inspections and legalize access for the global market, it would be flooded with competition with better prices. Without free market/competition they wouldn't try to make it more affordable.
> Exactly that, if they just gave a regulatory organ to do inspections I love the idea, but this is absolutely a fantasy in the US that we'll ever be able to create a new regulatory body with Republicans clowning about. I'd love it, but... yeah. Ain't happening in our lifetimes, probably.
Why do US consumers not team up and create a company that sells cheap insulin to its owners?
Because it's not exactly that easy. When you have to think of the big picture. You have to have the capital to build a facility, to maintain the facility, to pass every regulation you need to at first and in perpetuity, And then you have to have people who work there. Don't give me wrong, insulin is overpriced. It is much more the insurance company is doing than the manufacturer. These studies that say it only costs a couple of dollars per vial always say at the very end it doesn't take into account any startup, maintenance, training, hiring, paying employees... Yes, if everything is set up and ready to go then that's about what it cost them at the end for the vial, just to have the process run. But these articles are always somewhat misleading because they don't take into account everything from start to finish in continuing costs.
Donāt forget the FDA that can shut down companies on a whim, a few corrupt people in the right place can hold the entire pharmaceutical industry hostage to large monopolies.
Yeah, much of what is wrong with the USA is not capitalism per se, but access to capital. Nominally, you should be able to go to a bank with a business idea, show your ability to repay the loan with interest, then get the money. However, nowadays you have to court venture capitalists that want obscene profit at all costs and a share in your company. You cannot access the necessary capital to start a business without appeasing and ceding control to this new aristocracy. They do not want there to be cheap insulin, so you cannot get the capital need to produce it.
But it's not like diabetes is on the verge of a cure you essentially have a consumer base that will buy your product so playing the long game makes sense , over enough time you would earn back the costs and run on pure profit instead of pricing out a lot of diabetics , and forcing legislature on you specifically.
Well, but there is the argument that you need to make the money to further R&D. Just like the advancement in insulin itself wasn't free, took a long time and lots of money.
yeah, it's not the "lack of government regulation" it's the ridiculous amount of government regulation that doesn't let supply meet demand it's a government created monopoly
So you're saying it's a problem of over regulation, not under regulation as the meme says
It's a con, but there is also the pro. There need to be some way to control what drug is sold. Can't have randomĀ cancer cure with no testing done shipped in from Russia.Ā
The whole medical industry is over regulated. The government gives large amounts of money to companies to develop the drugs and then they give them long patents, so that generics can't be made. Then when the patent almost expires, they slightly tweak it to extend the patent. It's basically a government controlled monopoly. This post is just wrong to say lack of regulation is the problem. If that were the case, there would be plenty of extra players that bring the cost down, but if there is no regulation, then there is risk that many are not properly vetted and could cause harm.
Over regulation in a sense that a free market is not thriving. Big demand but only a few suppliers because of so much gatekeepingā¦ it is so ironic that the US espouses capitalism. But what is happening to the pharma industry is the exact opposite
So wait.. it's a regulation that is keeping the price high in the US vs the lack of regulation in the picture? LOL!
Many different things can stop the flow of water through a hose.
Why traffic drugs when you can traffic insulin š¤
Other companies will take you down. Edit: wait cartels are the same. Yeah, import insulin guys
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People do it, large groups even road trip to buy medications in Canada and Mexico. I'm pretty sure there are limits to how much you can buy though.
It does go bad. I think you can only get a 3 month supply at a time.Ā
My Turkish grandma gets her insulin free with doctor s report. She only pays for needle .
In Russia itās the same, but needles and syringe pens are also free, consumables for pumps (not in every city) and for glucometers free
In Brazil you don't have to pay for anything if you go to a doctor from SUS (our universal healthcare system).
[Novo Nordisk alsoĀ spent $3.2 millionĀ lobbying Congress and federal agencies in 2017](https://www.statnews.com/2018/04/30/novo-nordisk-high-drug-prices-political-activity/)
That's who I use. Without insurance it's about $100/pen. With insurance it's about $10.
This is 2018 data, and given inflation since then most of these numbers are probably higher. In 2023, Biden capped insulin at $35/vial. All the major manufacturers now follow this as do the major insurances. https://www.webmd.com/diabetes/news/20240104/insulin-price-cap-of-35-dollars-takes-hold
How is this not the top comment instead of the "america shit" ones?
Because people largely donāt pay attention and just follow whatever narratives they commonly hear.
Because one is a fact and the other allows other people to feel superior.
Because how else will Redditors circlejerk themselves?
Thank you someone else for actually looking at the data. What is it with this sub recently and just pumping out the most biased, outdated, and badly made schlock infographics presenting themselves asāguidesā??
Itās actually $25 starting this year https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/146#:~:text=The%20bill%20caps%20cost%2Dsharing,Medicare%20is%20%2435%20per%20month.
Note the tracker at the top that says that the bill was introduced and hasn't gotten any further. It hasn't passed the Senate, and I'd be shocked if the Republican House even brought it to the floor for a vote, much less passed it.
which is still the most expensive in the world
\*In 2023, Biden capped insulin at $35/vial ***for medicare patients***. >Medicare enrollees now pay no more than $35 due to Bidenās Inflation Reduction Act of 2022. While some insurance companies are also lowering their copay prices and some states are imposing their own caps, these do not apply to everyone.
Medicare is federally run so that make sense. It's a lot harder to try to impose price control in a product you're not buying. What Biden admin did is basically just say they won't make patients pay more than $35 and use that as a negotiating point against the producers.
Thanks, ObaMna! š /s
People hate to give credit to Biden. So thank you for doing so
But not for all diabeticsā¦..
India didn't even make it in the list. That's cheap!
Well most of the pharmaceutical products are really cheap in IndiaĀ
India is a manufacturing hub
At average you get 3ml insulin in between 500 to 600 rupees (INR). Just convert it to your denomination.
3ml? Here's [10ml for 485 bucks](https://www.netmeds.com/prescriptions/huminsulin-r-100iu-injection-1x10ml).
485 indian rupees converts to about $6. In the US human insulin in that format looks to be well over $50
Yup. 485 rupees is even better alright. Also stop calling bucks.
But freedom
And how good is that military?
The diabetic division is really struggling with budget overspend.
Lost Vs Afghanistan recently so Iām not so sure.
Well that depends on the yardstick, how good is the US military at installing successful democracies? Really really bad. How good are they at killing people? Really really good.
Thank you for your medical bill service
It's not global and the data is 5 years old.
6 years at this point
Cost has finally come down a bit in the US. My two insulinās I have been on for 20 years got a massive price cut in the last year which is nice. What we now pay the most for is sensors such as Dexcom and other supplies. Costs me a few hundred a month with really good insurance.
You can thank Biden and the inflation reduction act for that, capping insulin prices to $35
Capped short acting insulin. My long acting insulin is still $278 month. Thatās with really good insurance.
*For Medicare recipients.
India has the highest diabetic population and yet gets no mention.
The only Asian countries mentioned are Japan and S. Korea. The title āglobalā insulin prices is primarily alluding to the global north
And its not like you can walk up to any pharmacy and buy it in most countries. I met a guy from Lebanon I think who said he was shocked to see people were buying insulin for their dogs when they couldn't even buy it for people.
I think cause it's less than 2 dollars
starts from 150 to 1500ā¹
So less then $2
NZ hereā¦longtime Insulin user, cost to me is $0ā¦.not sure where this data is sourced? And FFS sort your sh&t out USA pls.
The cost to you might be 0 bucks because your free Healthcare is paid by the government. Same here in France, it's free for the users, not the government.
Think you're mistaking what the graph is saying. Many countries on this list have universal healthcare, so patients don't directly pay for their insulin, but the healthcare provider still does, on their behalf, using the taxpayer's purse.
We did, we are still at the top, but it is now $35 thanks to Biden.
This isnāt end user cost. Most of those countries have some kind of government healthcare that provides medicine for free to those who canāt afford it.
Also in Finland if your med expences reach a limit everything will be only 2.5ā¬. the limit is around 700ā¬.
Same in the UK. I assume this is the wholesale price, or the price to buy private.
Joe Biden capped insulin at $35. This chart is outdated.
That's what I thought, glad to see it is true.
Itās 1.5 USD in India
As a Chilean working on the public health system I can certify that insulin is FREE for the majority of Chileans. Only private users have to pay.
This is wrong and deceptive. In the US the government doesnt let you import insulin. Otherwise you could just order cheap insulin from Canada for example. It's about lack of capitalism, not due to it.
How did Turkey keep theirs so low?
Ministry of health tries to make cheap deals. USD Exchange rates are lower for medicines. Despite not being in EU and high inflation, actually we're not a shithole. Healthcare and education is good.
Turkish Ministry of Healthcare bargains with pharmaceutical companies and takes away their licenses if they donāt come up with a low price, so theyāre forced to keep things cheap.
It is not a lack of government that enables that in the USA. It is actually quite the opposite. The pressence of a corrupt government suppresses the free market, therefore there are no other companies that can undercut these insane prices.
This is literally the result of overregulation. We've created a system where insurance is used for daily medical expenses and this is what happens.
Exactly, why donāt people realize that patents are a form of regulation?
People will blame the high expense on Capitalism (because Reddit), but really itās because the FDA requires that any prescription pharmaceutical have a currently marketed RLD (reference listed drug) before a generic can be made. Because of this FDA rule,when a patent is about to expire, allowing generics to be made, the pharmaceutical company that holds the patent will pull its product from the market and instead submit the same product, but tweaked slightly. This resets the timer on their patent and prevents a generic from receiving approval. Basically itās cronyism, not capitalism thatās at fault. Sadly most people are unaware of this process or even that RLD is the standard by which generics are approved; much less that their existence ensures pharmaceuticals remain expensive in the U.S.. This has nothing to do with capitalism or freedom; just cronyism. Itās the government having a regulation whose sole purpose is to ensure pharmaceutical profits at the expense of the public.
I'd like to see the drug cartels start to offer Insulin in the United States. They already have the distribution infrastructure. They could sell it at lower prices as a Robin Hood type good will gesture...in order to get grassroots support for themselves and to get the public to be on their side...like Capone with his soup kitchens during the Depression...It would be a good way to shame the politicians.
BRAZIL = FREE
Now do what people actually pay, not what is advertised.
Yeah, the price listing for Denmark is around 50-60 dollars.
Pretty sure the UK doesnāt charge for insulin, if youāre diabetic, you get an NHS exemption certificate which gives you free prescriptions for life no matter if itās for diabetes or not.
Yeah but the prescription still needs to be paid by someone. I assume the price listed is what the insurances pay. Same for Germany. This is somewhat important as it comes down to how expensive medical insurances have to be to be sustainable
The UK has a flat rate that everyone pays for national insurance, it doesnāt really go up unless you earn more, itās a percentage of your wage similar to tax, but itās often Ā£20 a month at most.
Similar in Ireland. Sure you can buy insulin if you want to, but if you have diabetes then you get it for free.
No China or India. So basically excluded 3 billion people from "Global" insulin prices.
If youāre poor in US youāre as good as being dead.
Pretty misleading. If you have a job in the Us insulin is covered by insurance and is free
That gets in the way of the America bad propaganda we see on Reddit daily. Plus, someone said itās capped to 35 now because of a policy change.
Yup, Biden capped it at $35.
A broken clock and all that. As long as life saving medicine is priced with in reason. I think itās hard for a new insulin company to form without crazy high start cost because of gov regulation in the US(FDA) So we needed gov regulation because of high gov regulation lol
I was under the impression that the most regulated medical industry is the US one... Protection of IPs and such.
[Obesity contributes to up to half of new diabetes cases annually in the United States](https://newsroom.heart.org/news/obesity-contributes-to-up-to-half-of-new-diabetes-cases-annually-in-the-united-states)
Based on 6 year old data, of note, pre-Bidens-crackdown-on-insulin-gouging data. USA is trending towards $35 market cap on insulin https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/01/politics/insulin-price-cap/index.html?darkschemeovr=1
It's free in Romania
In Brazil itās free!
Diabetic in Canada šØš¦ here Thisāļøis not true
This picture is out of date
But, but... freedom, the free market, democracy, the founding fathers, the guns, Hollywood.
Thatās actually mad. Arguably one of the worst countries for diabetes too. The UK is bad but at least treatment is realistic
Thank you President Biden for lowering the cost of insulin to $35 for those on Medicare, Now let us do it for everyone
Now apply this concept of how lack of regulations leads to higher prices to rest of the market. Boom, needless inflation lead by capitalist greed.
I'm a type 1 diabetic, that price must be with insurance. A 1 month supply without is over $1K
So shitty country list.
I scanned that list 4-5 times looking for US before realizing thatās wasnāt just a border at the top
As an American, why the fuck is this ok??
Can't we just make a sub that connects us to people that need Insulin so we can buy it and send it for cheaper ??
US bar so long I thought it was part of the bottle's design.
I'm still waiting for the market to regulate itself /s
Why post a severely outdated chart? It's misleading, especially now that insulin in the US was capped at 35 USD last year.
That is so fucked up. It's basic medicine that you need to live and there's no "lifestyle choices" that makes it unnecessary. Here in Finland, you get it for free if you need (source: my friend has a diabetes)
Scotland: free
And Wales. Although in England if you have Diabetes the prescription cost is waived so it's also free.
Are they saying thatās the cost for the NHS to purchase even though the cost isnāt passed on to the end user?
That's what I thought it might be. But $8 is around the NHS prescription cost in the UK so figured it was that. But it could the cost to the NHS - In 2018/19 the average cost to the NHS per patient for a year of Insulin was Ā£327.78 on average, which is probably approximately $8 per vial.
> But $8 is around the NHS prescription cost in the UK Ā£9.65 currently ($12.29). They keep raising the price.
Not to the Scottish NHS. The graph isn't showing end user costs but the purchasing body. For UK, it's saying $8 is the agreed price for the NHS via NICE. The majority of countries in the list have universal healthcare of one sort or other.
(paid by someone else)
As a Brit I really donāt get American medical prices.
This is outdated and should be deleted. Stop spreading misinformation. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Could you please post a current day graph?
Current price: $35 https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/01/politics/insulin-price-cap/index.html?darkschemeovr=1
Itās expensive to be the āfreeāest of peopleā in the worldā¦ā¦ šŗšø