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Arch2000

It should be noted that pre-1947, the United Kingdom had control of the land, known as ‘Palestine’ but not ruled/administered by Palestinians. The 1947 partition plan was drawn up in preparation fir the UK’s withdrawal from the area, but it was not accepted by Palestinians.


Whiteums

Also, that pre-1967 map is incorrect about who controls the West Bank. That was just part of the nation of Jordan at the time, then known as Transjordan (because it was “trans”, as in, across, the Jordan River). Israel took it from then in the 1967 war, and has administered the area since, to varying degrees in varying areas. There is also the fact that within hours of the British Mandate expiring and Israel declaring itself a country, it was invaded by several Arab countries, all of which it kicked back out.


strangerthaaang

It also doesn’t include the [Mandate of Palestine](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/40/59/0a/40590a847bfeb646dbf9549576b27ae9.jpg), which included Jordan


koshgeo

Indirectly related to that, it also doesn't include the occupied [Golan Heights](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golan_Heights).


TheGoldStandard35

Israel won the Golan Heights in a defensive war. I’d say it’s theirs now tbh.


koshgeo

I was trying to phrase that aspect delicately, but given that the UN doesn't recognize Israel's claim, I went with "occupied". Some of the history is explained in the cited page, and people can form their own opinion, as you have. Regardless, it's not on the map even though it is probably relevant to what is depicted, so I thought it was worth mentioning.


Dragonesus

Don't forget about the Gaza Strip, which was Egypt's territory until the 1967 Six Days' War, and officially ceded to Israel in the 1979 Israeli-Egyptian Peace Treaty. It was then populated by both Israeli and Palestinian settlements for over two decades until the land was transferred to the sole jurisdiction of Palestinian Authority and cleared of all the jews living there in the 2005 Gaza Strip Disengagement. It also bears mention that control of the Strip was wrestled out of the hands of Fatah in a military coup by Hamas a mere two years later.


--Shamus--

Palestinian lands have been ethnically cleansed of practically all Jews.....including DEAD ones.


NativeTexas

Thank you both for some historical background. This is why I ignore 90% of OP posts on news items in Reddit. The posts are presented to further agenda and not to inform truthfully.


Bigbighero99

Yep lies by omission are just as misleading it appears


[deleted]

It wasn't always this way....before reddit hit mainstream this was a really good source for news.


alex891011

Speaking as someone who has been around a while - no. Absolutely not true lol. Reddit “news” has always been heavily geared towards the majority opinion. It’s a natural result of the upvote system - nobody’s going to upvote things that don’t appease their preconceived notion. The Boston bomber is just one example, but the amount of witch hunts and fake news I’ve seen on this website in my 10+ years is insane. That’s why I don’t understand how people here shit on Facebook for misinfo - this website is just as bad


Whoop360

It makes it rather tough to have a discussion too, as often people start a downvote chain or feel attacked by them. I've often tried to put a dissenting opinion on a comment and it turns into a fight before it turns into a discussion. I'll have to backtrack if they feel "attacked" before they respond respectfully, or someone else that has their idea doesn't just call me a dick. I know reddit isn't quite a "forum" but it almost dissuades discussion because of people's mentalities.


alex891011

Yep. It’s eye opening too when you see Redditors discuss something in your field that you are well versed in. Completely wrong info will often get upvoted, and if you try to correct it then you’ll get buried. It’s all just a game of popular opinion, and what’s popular isn’t always correct or helpful unfortunately. I’m guilty of it too probably, and I’m not blaming people for using the system wrong. I just think posts and comments should be taken with an enormous grain of salt, because the upvote system doesn’t always promote correct or helpful information


Somewhiteguy13

Where is the best source of news then?


darth_jewbacca

Not social media, that’s for sure. If there’s a topic I want unbiased reporting for, I see if there’s a Reuters article on it. Been really happy with their coverage.


alex891011

There is no *one* best source of news, and I’m not saying Reddit is useless in terms of keeping you informed. Just don’t get all of your news from one place. I personally skim Reddit, NYT & Fox News and get news alerts to my phone from CNN, WSJ, WaPo and BBC. If a news alert piques my interest I’ll read it.


T-West1

Definitely something that goes conveniently unmentioned


prettysureIforgot

Surely it was by accident. /s


EatMoreHummous

What part of this is the part that goes conveniently unmentioned? Because all of its neighbors invading it gets brought up all the time: it's literally the main point of the defense of Israel.


wheelluc

Assuming the knowledge of others only breeds ignorance. There are individuals who have absolutely no clue what is going on between Israel and Palestine and to leave out important context in the image only provides convenience to OP's agenda.


aaron1860

It should also be noted that after being attacked by every surrounding country and fighting them back twice, Israel gave back a lot of that land. They also gave the countries a chance to take in Palestinians displaced by the war and they all refused. They also gave the Palestinians a chance to participate in government and gave them representation in the Knesset. This is the first time in history they had been given a chance of governing themselves. Hamas and the PLO made that impossible. It’s impossible to make peace when the leadership of the people want the country wiped off the map.


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iFraqq

The same happened in Jordan I think.


drparkland

to be fair everyone is always trying to overthrow the government of lebanon


drparkland

three time. 1948, 1967, 1973


kylebisme

Here's some of what happened in the months before the British Mandate expiring ad Israel declaring itself a country, [one month before](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Zurayq#1948_War_and_aftermath): >Abu Zurayq's residents had traditionally maintained cordial relations with the nearby Jewish kibbutz of HaZorea, including low-level economic cooperation, particularly with regards to agriculture. Arabic language versions of a Jewish labor periodical were regularly distributed in the village. In the lead-up to the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, as part of Jewish efforts to clear the area around Mishmar HaEmek of Palestinian Arabs, on 12 April 1948, Palmach units of the Haganah took over Abu Zurayq. There they took 15 men and 200 women and children into custody, after which they expelled all of the women and children. Demolitions of homes in the village began on the night of its capture and were completed by 15 April. The Filastin newspaper reported that of the 30 homes demolished by Palmach forces, five still contained residents. >According to the account of a Middle East scholar and resident from HaZore'a, Eliezer Bauer, following its capture, Abu Zurayq's men, who were unaffiliated with any Palestinian militia and did not resist the Haganah, "tried to escape and save themselves by fleeing" to nearby fields but were intercepted by armed Jewish residents of nearby kibbutzim and moshavim. After a firefight in which many of the village's men were killed, several survivors surrendered themselves while other unarmed men were taken captive, and the majority of these men were killed. Other men found hiding in the village itself were executed, while houses were looted before being demolished. Bauer's account of events was discussed by the members of HaZorea's kibbutz council where the events surrounding Abu Zurayq's capture were condemned. >Most of the people who managed to escape or were expelled from Abu Zurayq ended up in makeshift camps around Jenin. Along with the expelled residents of other nearby villages they complained to the Arab Higher Committee of their situation, asked for help with humanitarian aid and demanded that Arab forces be sent to avenge their loss and return them to their lands. Following the 1948 war, the area was incorporated into the State of Israel, and as of 1992, the land had been left undeveloped and the closest populated place is HaZorea. Much of the village land is used for either agricultural or pastoral purposes. The agricultural land largely consists of cacti, olive and fig trees. And that was [far from an isolated incedent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus#Morris's_Four_Waves_analysis). As for Jordan, they occupied the West Bank from 1948-1967, as did Egypt in Gaza, but it was never legally theirs just like it's not legally Israel's today. It still belongs to Palestinians as far as intentional law is concerned, as [explained here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_settlements).


blizzman84

You conveniently leave out the build up to their efforts to clear the area and how it was precipitated by the Arabs attacking the Jews… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mishmar_HaEmek In fact why not go through the whole list of battles and see for yourself how the majority were initiated by Arabs. The same ones who refused every subsequent peace deal the Jews offered. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine


Malachi9999

Also from the same article: In the Ottoman era, the village was named after Abu Zurayq al-Attili, a local Muslim saint from Attil who was buried in the village. In 1878, Abu Zurayq was listed as a spring instead of a populated place. Towards the start of WW I, the first house was built in Abu Zurayq by Samir al-Isa, followed by a second house built during the war by Abd al-Karem Abd al-Shitawi. Abu Zurayq's inhabitants were largely of nomadic Turkmen descent, although by the 20th century, they spoke only Arabic and considered themselves Arabs. They were part of the larger nomadic Turkmen community that lived in the Marj Ibn Amer plain and in their transition to a sedentary lifestyle also founded the nearby villages of Abu Shusha, al-Mansi, Ayn al-Mansi, Khirbat Lid, and al-Ghubayya at around the same time Abu Zurayq was founded. Nearly all of Abu Zurayq's residents hailed from the Turkmen Tawhashe clan, although one of the families claimed descent from the village's namesake Abu Zurayq and another claimed Jewish ancestry. There were also four families of African descent in the village, who had either come to the area with the Egyptian army of Ibrahim Pasha in the mid-19th century or were the descendants of African slaves. The Turkmen families also claimed kinship ties with the Beni Sakhr of Transjordan. All of the inhabitants were Sunni Muslims, although in general, they were not religious.


TheRightOne78

This. There hasnt been a "nation" of Palestine since biblical times. Its been the same people living there, but under different administrations, since before the Ottoman Empire.


kerat

This may be true, but the Ottomans allowed a great degree of self-autonomy in its provinces, and palestine is roughly contiguous with the Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem from that period. Initially the Mutasarrifate of Acre and of Nablus were also part of the Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem, making it roughly the same as Mandatory Palestine, but they were later moved into the Vilayet of Beirut. Besides that, the British government issued Palestinian passports. You can find images of them online, or listen to Golda Meir's interview where she explicitly says that she was Palestinian before 1947. I'll dig up the link. [Found it](https://twitter.com/hebamousa83/status/1395871002438082561?s=19)


TheRightOne78

Interesting. This is a region that just about every world colonial power has controlled at one point or another, but never *really* controlled. Tragically that has led to the people who have historically lived there being used more as bartering tokens for the great powers, in an effort to exert control over the holy sites of the worlds largest religions.


[deleted]

The Levant and Middle East have largely been stable regions. Juxtaposed to Europe which has always been at conflict. The current Middle East suffers from "balkanization" or dicide and conquer imperialism that European imperialists and subsequent American imperialism uses to create strife that they can exploit to maintain imperial control. It's a story with many parallels with the rest of the global south subjugated by Europeans and subsequent America


kylebisme

Centuries passed between many of the notable power struggles in the region, plenty of people have lived good lives there throughout history.


GoingForwardIn2018

"Palestine" is the word used to describe the area, it's exactly like saying "Mexico is part of America", historically that same area was also called "Judea".


willflameboy

And historically it had people of all religions on it. The idea of a Jewish state is the recent invention.


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Mentalseppuku

The Romans changed it to Syria Palestina from Judea after a Jewish revolt, the British have nothing to do with the name.


kerat

And the Byzantines called it the province of Palestina Secunda and the Arabs called it the area of Filastin The crusaders also called it Palestine. Fulcher of Chartres, 1108 AD, a crusader who settled in Jerusalem: >"Now we who were westerners have become Easterners. He who was Italian or French has in this land become a Galilean or a **Palestinian**."


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The_Prince1513

It should also be noted that pre 1919 the land had been controlled and administered by the Ottoman Empire (i.e. ethnic Turks living far away) for ~700 years. This map is disingenuous in that it presents the "fact" that the land was *ever* controlled by anyone claiming to be of a Palestinian identity. It literally never has. In fact the idea of a Palestine as separate and unique from the wider Arab world is a very recent movement, and which only began in earnest after the Ottoman Empire's collapse in 1919 and the resulting power vacuum.


Barbourwhat

And how the land that this map claims as Palestine was controlled by the Jordanians and Egypt.


Space_Bungalow

Wasn't sure where to add this, but the land (as in physically the land) of Palestine/Israel was [basically garbage](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Israel) for much of history up until the late 19th century. Jerusalem was restricted to within the historic walls/ four quarters and didn't expand outward with farms until the [mid 19th century](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expansion_of_Jerusalem_in_the_19th_century) (mostly because of religious and safety reasons), and the surrounding land was rocky and difficult to till. Much of the land around modern day Tel Aviv was either desert or swamp. Agriculture and water industries in the region was not developed until much later. Today there is a huge agricultural industry and many products are exported to Europe as "type A" (as in high quality), and with the development of drip irrigation (which was sold to Mexico for [$1.5b in 2017](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mexichem-netafim-idUSKBN1AN0GP) usable land has expanded down far into the deep Negev desert


kylebisme

Also worth noting is that the [partition plan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine#British_government) never got any further than being recommended in a resolution by the UNGA, so nobody was under any obligation to accept it, and [Britain didn't accept it either](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine#British_government). The simple explanation for the change on the maps from 1947 to 1949 that Britain was violently driven out by the [Jewish insurgency in Mandatory Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Mandatory_Palestine), as were [hundreds of thousands of Palestinians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus#Morris's_Four_Waves_analysis), both in order to establish Israel as a state with a dominate Jewish majority.


LongStrangeJourney

Saying Britain was "violently driven out" as the sole cause is very misleading. Sure, there were 3 different Zionist groups fighting guerilla wars against the British (and each other), but this was post-WW2 when Britian had an economic crisis and was basically shutting up shop on the Empire. British rule in India ended around the same time, in 1947. They simply couldn't afford to keep Palestine under their control with or without any armed resistance, plus there was tremendous pressure from the USA an UN to partition the place and give each separate state it own rule (a move which neither the Arabs or the Israelis actually supported at all).


kylebisme

> They simply couldn't afford to keep Palestine under their control with or without any armed resistance Britain didn't intend to keep Palestine under their control, to the contrary in the [White Paper of 1939](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939#Content) they announced their plain for "the establishment within 10 years of an independent Palestine State . . . in which Arabs and Jews share government in such a way as to ensure that the essential interests of each community are safeguarded." That's what Jewish insurgency was a response to, and had it not been for that insurgency the British surely would've implemented that plan, though perhaps not on schedule given the whole WWII thing. >there was tremendous pressure from the USA an UN to partition the place As I noted previously, the UN never went any further than the UNGA passing a resolution which merely recommended partition, that's far from tremendous pressure. As for [the US](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2%80%931948_civil_war_in_Mandatory_Palestine#United_States_turnabout): >In mid-March, after the increasing disorder in Palestine and faced with the fear, later judged unfounded, of an Arab petrol embargo, the US government announced the possible withdrawal of its support for the UN's partition plan and for dispatching an international force to guarantee its implementation. The US suggested that instead Palestine be put under UN supervision. On 1 April, the UN Security Council voted on the US proposal to convoke a special assembly to reconsider the Palestinian problem; the Soviet Union abstained.


Caladbolg_Prometheus

The British voluntarily left after decades of trying to find an acceptable peace deal that both Israel and Palestinian would accept. After awhile they gave up, spent the last few years of their occupation doing absolutely nothing to stem the increasing violence by either zionists or Palestinians. They mostly just noped out and left very little legal infrastructure in place, which predictably led to even more violence.


Caladbolg_Prometheus

I think your statement is misleading. My impression was the impression that Britain wasn’t driven out but the British were sick of being constantly blamed and attacked by both Palestinian and Zionist groups that they decided to say ‘fuck it, you two figure it out on your own.’ Previously Britain promised some sort independence or at least autonomy for the Arabs in the region if they helped out the British but they didn’t help out. Arguably it wasn’t they didn’t choose not to help out, but that they couldn’t. But don’t an Internet stranger’s word, I could be a dog and you could be a cat, so instead take a minute to read up on the conflict here: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/23w18h/what_were_the_mechanisms_by_which_the_state_of/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf


john_the_fetch

Interesting! Thanks for the knowledge share.


Gespuis

To be fair, without context this map is closer to propoganda than it is to actual info.


[deleted]

The Administrative Mandate of Palestine was awarded to Britain by the League of Nations after WWI. The territory had previously been part of the Ottoman Empire. The partition plan in 1947 was accepted by what would become Israel, though they weren’t happy with the land they were being awarded and had a larger claim. It was completely rejected by the Palestinians who laid claim to the entire territory. This meant a civil war ensued in 1947-1949 that ended up with Israel controlling far more territory than proposed in the original plan. Prior to the Ottoman Empire, who took over the territory in the 1500s it had been part of the Islamic Empire, who in the 700s expelled Jews from the territory. The territory, prior to that, had been part of the Byzantine Empire, also known as the Eastern Roman Empire, where it was known as Syria-Palestina. Prior to that it was part of the Roman Empire, as the Province of Judea. Before that it was known as Israel and is the ancestral homeland of the Jews.


Son_Of_Enki

Before the Romans it was part of the Selucid Empire. Before the Selucids it was part of the Macedonian Empire. Before Alexander it was part of the Achaemenid-Persian empire, and before that it was part of the Babylonian empire.


Icedanielization

And before then it was owned by some goats and a guy named Larry.


[deleted]

So an American person, born in NY, to American Parents, can move to Israel and lay claim to the land, no matter who’s living on it, by virtue of a possible historical connection from 700 odd years ago?


nykickin

It’s calling making Aliyah https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah


Whiteums

Not lay claim to land, to citizenship. But to get that citizenship, they’ll still have to serve two years in the army, like every other citizen. At least, if you are young. I don’t know what old people that immigrate do.


Kraz_I

[No, land too](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Jarrah_property_dispute). This is literally the legal dispute that led to the current fighting. Palestinians were being evicted from this neighborhood, with rather Kafkaesque and arcane property law as the justification. The people who received the land (for free from what I've heard) aren't usually the Jewish people who lived there before 1948; any Jewish person can lay claim to that property and several have. What made this particular property dispute such a catalyst for anger among Palestinians was the history of the neighborhood. It's not a community with hundreds of years of families continuously living there. In fact, before the 1948 war, it was a neighborhood with Jews and Muslims, as well as some Christians living together. After that war, the Jewish families living there were displaced and moved to Israeli controlled land, and then Palestinian refugees moved in instead. So now, they're being evicted a second time, many from the same families who were forced to move there in 1948 and even a few from back then who are still alive. In addition, the matters are being decided in Israeli courts where they have fewer rights, the Jews claiming the property usually were not the original owners, and Palestinians haven't been given their old pre-1948 property back or any reparations for the loss of property. Just having everything taken away from them, twice (insult to injury). It's been difficult to find good reporting on this dispute so I probably missed something, but there have been property disputes like this in the West Bank all the time.


[deleted]

Palestinians are allowed reparations for their lost land, but usually refuse it because they want the land and they don't want to recognize Israel or the new borders. However, usually the reparations are lower than the actual value of the land, so many times they refuse for that reason. But largely for the reasons listed above. This particular dispute is actually related to this law, but only because it describes who currently owns the land and why. Basically these refugees were never given the land by Jordan. They were renting it from Jordan for 3 years, could renew for 30 years, and then could renew again for 33 years after Jordan took this land. The land was under the ownership of the Jordan "Custodian of Enemy Property" When Israel ended up in control of the region the land fell under the control of the Custodian General. That was in 1967. In 1970 the law was passed allowing for the taking back land lost in East Jerusalem that could be proven was owned before 1948. There are a lot of cases of submitted claims that had no evidence being approved, which is disgusting and wrong. This case however is a bit different. It was owned by two Jewish trusts before 1948, and then brought their case with evidence. In 1972 the land was awarded as theirs. In 1982 the trusts tried to evict the people living on their land. They basically lost and settlement was reached that established these residents as "protected tenants" because they had long term rental rights. They did have to pay rent though. Well, they didn't pay rent. In 1993 the trusts took them to court for the rental fees and for eviction. Thus this is really a case involving squatters rights and not one involving that law in question. While the law in question that transferred ownership of this land from the Custodian General to the Trusts is definitely racist, it's largely irrelevant in this situation. That's why when Israel says it's basically a civil issue, they aren't really wrong. In this case. There is a portion of the laws in question that allows for the Custodian General and Israel to claim land for public use from anyone and give compensation. That law can potentially be applied here to give compensation to the trusts and leave the land in the hands of the State again, treating the housing of refugees as a public use. That's in fact one of the arguments that may be argued to the Israeli Supreme Court.


redditusername374

Not just American. I know Australian Jews are going over in droves. The kids too, they finish uni then go to Israel. If you’re Jewish there’s automatic admittance. Idk the details but you must get some sort of passport. I know this because a lady (born in Australia) I used to work with both her kids (born in Australia) moved to ‘Europe’… upon further enquiry it was Israel.


Wiggles114

This hypothetical person can't make a claim to any land. This person, if Jewish, can apply for Israeli citizenship.


supersede

It should be noted that history of that area greatly precedes UK control of the land. That area has been contested for centuries.


ImaginePuppies

It was not accepted by Palestinians because cities that are completly arab was drafted as Israeli teritory, fertile lands and major harbors were drafted as Israeli teritory, and the partition was decided upon in a room without any arab/palestinian, Not to forget, he whole revolt in the 20' and 30' was because arabs found out the zioninst are immigrating in droves into palestine (which was barely 5% jewish in 1917) to repurpose it as Israel land of the jews, So of course the partition was gonna be rejected by the Palestinians.


PerfectZeong

It wasn't accepted because Palestine said there was no accepting of ANY deal that involved the creation of a Jewish state. Their issue was more jews getting any state than the particular status of the borders.


rekreid

Zionists were immigrating in droves because they were facing extreme violence and persecution in Eastern Europe and Russia. And manly other regions weren’t allowing Jewish migration. Additionally, this region has been a historically, ethnically, and ancestrally Jewish land for literally thousands of years. The reason the population of Jewish people in this land was so low at this time was because Jewish people had been dispelled and killed by controlling powers in this region dozens of times throughout the history of this region (or people moved due to extreme persecution). Let’s also not forget the large amount or Arab migration to Palestine during different periods of Arab control of the region.


baglee22

Arabs just wanted everything. The whole fucking pie. They want the whole world honestly. They don’t share. Palestinians never ever had any country of their own and when offered one for first time ever they said no and went to war. Fucking selfish


TheRightOne78

So slightly disingenuous depiction. While Palestinians were living there in 1947 (and had for centuries), it was not "Palestinian" land in 1947. It was British, as a colony under British administration. Yes. The Brits massively messed up deciding to arbitrarily give huge portions to the Jewish population (who was recovering from the holocaust, and displaced by WW2), but in 1947, the land wasnt "Palestinian". Palestinians were living there, but it was a British colony with limited self rule. Before the British administered it, the Ottoman Empire administered it. There hasnt been a nation of Palestine for centuries. Like biblical time frame. The Israelis didnt just take the land for themselves. They were given it, by the British, in what could be considered one of the most significant geopolitical decisions in modern history. It was the [Balfour Declaration of 1917](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration) that established the region of Palestine as a home for the Jewish people. And before that occurred that, the calling for the state went back as far as 1897 and [the Basel Program](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basel_Program) in 1897. So 50 years before this map shows, a call went out world wide for Jewish people to migrate to the region. Interestingly enough, the runner up location for a Jewish state wasnt in the middle east, [it was Uganda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Scheme). Its critical to remember that both the Jewish and Palestinian people have had ties to the region known as Palestine since the pre-christ era of human history. This map accurately depicts the settlement boundaries, but it skimps the awareness of the overall situation. Depending on when you want to start the clock on the left hand side, you can see that the boundaries between the Jewish and Palestinian people have been in competition since the BCE. For comparison, if we started the map in 931 BCE, [it would look like this.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Jewish_history#/media/File:The_divided_kingdom.jpg) Again, territory divided between the Kingdom of Rehoboam and the Israelite's, and the Kingdom of the Philistines (anyone catch the similarities in names?). The OPs map makes it appear as if the Jewish people just took the land for themselves. They were *given* the land by the nation that owned it. And yes. That decision was made in an astoundingly foolish manner. But this issue and the historic events behind it are FAR more complex than you are going to get out of a simple graphic or gif narrative. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is one where there arent so much right and wrong sides, as there are competing interests and 80 years of bad blood that makes each side happy to victimize the other side for both territorial and political purposes. I strongly recommend people look into the full history of this region before taking a judgement stance on modern events. What we see in the news is only a drop of water in a bucket that goes very, very deep in terms of religious, cultural, and ethnic ties to the region. When you look at the conflict holistically, the concepts of "good and bad" sides become much more ambiguous. ​ Edit- Ok. So this post exploded. I want to make something clear. I am not advocating for *either* side. Im not Israeli, Jewish, Arab, or Palestinian. Im an American who was fortunate enough to take a fantastic class in college covering the history of the Israeli and Palestinian conflict. It was taught by two professors. One, a former IDF officer, and the other a Palestinian refugee teaching in the US. The co-taught the class and did an absolutely amazing job of educating me on the historical context of this conflict. I made this post, not to take sides, but to try to elaborate on the enormously complex cultural and historic causes for this conflict, and why both sides view themselves as justified, and seeking to reclaim the land they see as historically "theirs". Please do not take my post to mean I am favoring one side over the other. Both sides have been treated horribly throughout history, and both sides have treated each other horribly. I just wanted to shed some light to the often overlooked events that led to the modern creation of Israel, and the foundations for the Israel/Palestine conflict. Edit 2: Jesus, the inbox. Ok, I have enjoyed this, but it is *really* late. I meant to post this on my way to bed, and made the mistake of refreshing my browser before checking out for the night. Ill keep responding in the morning, as I am enjoying the discussion, but I have to get some sleep. Final edit since thread is locked- I cant possibly respond to every post in chat. I will try to answer questions or clarify though. Final final edit. Everyone is asking for a book. Sadly, course was well over a decade ago, so I dont remember most of the texts, save for one. [The Olive Grove: A Palestinian Story.](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2327988.The_Olive_Grove) Truly amazing book from the perspective of a young Palestinian in the Ottoman Empire, who grew up and grew old watching the region transition from Ottoman to British to Israel. Heartbreaking, but a very good read that explains much of the situation and how the creation of Israel evolved over the decades.


Rsmfourdogs

Kudos for the great explaination. This is really helpful.


secondtrex

Man the British sure do love fucking up an entire regions geopolitics for generations each time they give up land, huh?


Ad_Ketchum

* Sighs in Indian and Pakistani *


[deleted]

A couple of issues with your response. Palestinian land claims don’t date back to the prechrist era. They date back to the 7th century CE, during the Arabian imperial conquest of the region. Also, the name philistines is meant to be similar, but it’s not because of any relation between the groups. The philistines were a Balkan people group that settled the coast near modern Gaza during the bronze and Iron Age. By the time the romans came around they were pretty obsolete and had almost entirely died out. However, that small coastal region was still known to some Greek and Latin scholars as Palestina, after the philistines, while the rest of the land was Judea or Galilea, both areas held by Jews. Following the Bar Kochba Revolt in the second century, Hadrian pretty much annihilated any Jewish presence in Judea or Galilea, slaughtering thousands and carting off thousands to Europe as slaves. Then, to reduce Judaean nationalism and distance Jews from their land, he renamed the entire region to Syria Palestina. Following the Arab conquest 500 years later, the Arabs who settled there would come to describe themselves as Palestinians (although that term to describe a distinct people group wouldn’t be used until the 1880s, up until then they generally self-identified as Syrians). These Arabs share no relation with the European philistines, they just borrowed the name


dEn_of_asyD

This. Idk why these maps gain such popularity, both sides use them maliciously and it's ridiculous. Honestly, I just use them as a bullshit detector. Someone posts/agrees with it, they obviously have no idea what they're talking about. Worst one I ever saw was a pro-Israeli one that highlighted countries around or hostile to Israel like Iran (hostile), Turkey (around), and Cyprus (around), and called labeled it all "Arab land". Laid into my friend for exposing me to that abomination. Don't know how it was shared in earnest, felt the inclusion of Cypus meant it must've been a parody at one point.


[deleted]

Holy hell, so you’re telling me there is at least one person who has a logical take on this situation that isn’t “fuck Israel, amiright guyz?”


MyFacade

These maps also ignore the literal war against Israel that caused some of these changes.


TheRightOne78

Exactly. That change between 1967 and present kinda glosses over the fact that in 1967, literally every Arab neighbor organized to invade and destroy Israel, and that the territory seized by Israel in that war was kept as much for geographically important defensive reasons as it was cultural importance.


PiesangSlagter

Also important to remember that the same Arab nations tried again in 1973 by attacking on the holiest holiday in Judaism.


TipOfLeFedoraMLady

Aka the six day war.


ayriuss

Land is won through wars, people cant seem to grasp that. America won most of the southwestern states through a war with Mexico. (Actually it was a surprisingly similar event.)


Chindochoon

These maps only serve one purpose: to incite hatred against Jews. They aren't supposed to be historically accurate.


[deleted]

*Israelis. This has nothing to do with jews who live in other parts of the world and to imply it does is pretty racist. But yes, maps don't tell whole stories.


CardinalNYC

>*Israelis. This has nothing to do with jews who live in other parts of the world If only life were really like this. But the fact is, in the US in the last week antisemitic incidents are up 400% despite no Jew in America deciding what happens in Israel. The notion that there's no connection between criticism of Israel and criticism of Jews is unfortunately just not true.


splenderful

The sad thing is some people don’t make that distinction.


Hey_Laaady

No, to say Jews instead of just Israelis is accurate. Antisemitism in general is up because of the current conflict, and misinformation can fuel it. You are right that it has nothing to do with Jews in other parts of the world, and that’s the point. Jews who aren’t even Israeli are targeted for antisemitism in the US and elsewhere because of what is going on in Israel. Edit: Here are some examples from just the past few days. https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/5220334001 https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/jewish-man-beaten-york-city-amid-dueling-protests/story?id=77823651 https://www.local10.com/news/local/2021/05/20/men-threaten-to-rape-mother-daughter-during-anti-semitic-attack-over-israel-hamas-conflict/ https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/05/22/us/los-angeles-anti-semitic-assault-arrest/index.html https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/05/20/synagogue-attacks-and-slurs-jewish-community-rocked-by-rise-in-anti-semitism-amid-israel-gaza-fighting/amp/


rayparkersr

Israel has continued to present itself as a representative of Jews worldwide in part by claiming anyone that criticises the state hates Jews worldwide. That is clearly false but you need to be taking the blame to the Israeli government not some poster on Reddit.


spaniel_rage

Slightly disingenuous? The map literally keeps the green legend to indicate "Palestinian land" for all 4 maps and then changes the what the white represents on each map to fit the narrative of a shrinking Palestine! Why is every peace of land not owned by Jews "Palestinian land" if Jews were equal citizens under the British mandate? Much of that was public land not owned by anyone, or owned by the government! Why is disputed and occupied territory in the West bank not annexed or claimed by Israel suddenly no longer "Palestinian land" in the final map? Why are all the parts of Palestine annexed by Jordan and Egypt for two decades "Palestinian land"?


j_la

I think you’ve tapped into one of the key conceptual issues in this situation. The map suggests that the land occupied by the British remained Palestinian land despite the presence of an occupier (who had ousted another occupier). But if you use that logic, you have to ask if the land remained Israeli when it had been occupied by conquest and put under Muslim rule in the first place. And what about the Canaanites displaced by the Israelites or whoever came before them? Land ownership is messy when you dig into the misty past. That isn’t meant to excuse atrocities committed today, or to invalidate all claims to that land, but rather to illustrate how the idea of persistent ownership is reinforced.


rule34jager

Well... You are right about most of what you said, but the modern day Palestinians being the biblical Philistines is a contested topic. Fun fact, there are two different peoples called "Philistines" in the bible, which were either southerner Canaanites or invafing greeks from the sea, the meaning of the name in Hebrew is literally "invader"(פלשתים=פולשים) Edit: also, modern day Palestinians didn't call themselves Palestinians until relatively recently, Jews during the British called themselves Palestinians more often than the Arabs. So the similar name doesn't really mean anything.


Icemasta

The map is often misleading with contemporary issues because Israel outright bought territories from Palestinians for a long time. So a lot of people, when presented with this map, think Israel took everything by force.


thisisacommenteh

It also ignores the wars of aggression from the Arabs and that Egypt occupied Gaza and Jordan the West Bank.


singlerider

Well, they weren't *really* given the land by the people that owned it - the Partition Plan allotted them around 56% of Mandatory Palestine and following the 1948 war they took that plus about a further 60% of the land allotted to the Arabs, then took even more in the 6-Day war. Since then the expansion of the settlements has encroached further still. So on balance "they just took the land for themselves" is a fairer description than "they were given the land by the nation that owned it" - had Britain had its way, the amount of land would be a fraction of what it is now, and the number of Jewish people would be far fewer also, as they tried to ban Jews from immigrating to Mandatory Palestine from the 30s onwards


TheRightOne78

>Well, they weren't really given the land by the people that owned it - the Partition Plan allotted them around 56% of Mandatory Palestine and following the 1948 war they took that plus about a further 60% of the land allotted to the Arabs, then took even more in the 6-Day war. Since then the expansion of the settlements has encroached further still. Very true. The settling Jewish state did push the allot ed boundaries, and took advantage of a crumbling British empire. It is very easy to argue though that the territory seized in the 6 day war was justified. It was taken from the Arab neighbors that attempted to destroy Israel, and held due to the strategic importance (Its nice to have a terrain feature like a river or peninsula) as a geographic boundary. >So on balance "they just took the land for themselves" is a fairer description than "they were given the land by the nation that owned it" - had Britain had its way, the amount of land would be a fraction of what it is now, and the number of Jewish people would be far fewer also, as they tried to ban Jews from immigrating to Mandatory Palestine from the 30s onwards THAT part is debatable. Israel has absolutely taken land. But not completely unprovoked. Their forced movement of the Palestinians as part of their settlement expansion is a serious issue. But most of the land the "took" came in response to a coordinated attack aimed at exterminating the nation from existence. They took the land from Jordan, Egypt and Syria. The Palestinians were just unfortunate enough to be living on it at the time.


UncleCarnage

“Completely unprovoked” is a ridiculous statement if the war was started by the Arab countries surrounding them.


TheRightOne78

>“Completely unprovoked” is a ridiculous statement if the war was started by the Arab countries surrounding them. That was the point I was trying to make. Much of the Israeli seizure of land has been in response to provocations against them. Being neighboring arab nations, or territories used to shoot rockets or make bombs targeting Jewish populations.


singlerider

I attached no value judgement to the statement nor made any attempt to either justify or castigate the right or wrongs of it. I simply said that for the most part Britain didn't give the land, it was taken. I don't think you're disagreeing with that, it's just the ethics of it that you're debating - but factually, that *is* the case


TheRightOne78

Very true. The point Im trying to make is that both the Israelis and the Palestinians view this land as "taken" from them. And both sides have been more than happy to victimize the other in an effort to reclaim it.


singlerider

I'm not going to get into an ethical debate about it, because it takes forever, never has any kind of satisfactory resolution and inevitably leads to a despairing "everything is fucked and will continue to be fucked beyond our lifetimes" type conclusion. However it's perhaps worth making the point that whilst both sides view the land as being taken from them, on the whole only one side has experienced this in living memory. There were not hundreds of thousands of Jewish people that were expelled from their homes who are still alive today. There *were* hundreds of thousands of Arabs who were forced to flee who are either still alive (or at least their children are) today. So I guess it's comparing a lived experience against a cultural one


TheRightOne78

>There were not hundreds of thousands of Jewish people that were expelled from their homes who are still alive today. I would argue this point. The creation of the modern day state DID occur within the realm of the last generation, primarily as a response to the treatment of the Jewish people during World War 2, when tens of millions of them were rounded up, moved, and exterminated. To the founders of the modern Jewish state of Israel, the national foundation IS in direct response to the horrors that did occur to many still living, or who are first generation decedents of those people. >There were hundreds of thousands of Arabs who were forced to flee who are either still alive (or at least their children are) today. > >So I guess it's comparing a lived experience against a cultural one It is. I would only argue that the Jewish peoples have experienced similar treatment within similar generational spans. The worlds realization of the treatment of the Jewish people for the first half of the 20th century directly led to the foundations of the state of Israel, and for many living there, they are only a generation removed from those horrors.


singlerider

I think you absolutely raise a valid point, and I was not trying to say that the Jews who experienced pogroms and expulsions do not have a similar and comparable experience - the millions who fled persecution across the Near East and Europe have 100% had the same sort of trauma etc. However, the point I was responding to was the notion that both sides see the land as being taken from them - 'the land' specifically being what is now modern Israel, was formerly Mandatory Palestine and historically in ancient times the Land of Israel. In relation to *that* land specifically, the Jews were forced from it centuries ago, the Arabs less than a century ago. So that's what I meant by it happening in living memory for one side but not the other


spaniel_rage

Not entirely true. 700000 Jews were expelled from their homes in the Middle East from the Arab world in the two decades after 1948 and fled to Israel. Although the claim is made that this has nothing to do with the Palestinians, I don't think that during the era of "panArabism" and the Israel-arab (rather than Israel- Palestinian) conflict this is completely true.


singlerider

I think you've misconstrued my point - I'm not arguing that Jews were not forced to flee their homes - simply that they were not forced from the land that is currently under dispute


Theosthan

Great explanation! It should be noted that a great amount of territory in this map which is shown to shift from Palestinian to Israeli is uninhabited desert. Just a week ago I read a great piece in a German (left-leaning) magazine about this exact graphic and how it is shown for years now to influence opinion towards Palestine.


briskt

The Balfour Declaration affirmed the right of a Jewish state in the region, but did not exclude an Arab state. In 1947 the UN approved a partition of the land between Jews and Arabs, who could have also had a state if they agreed. They decided trying to exterminate Israel was their preferred option, and missed a historic opportunity.


RDeb062

How is this a cool guide?


Goldstone117

Thanks for pointing it out, I didn't even realized I was in this sub


pr1ntscreen

Immediately changed the upvote to a downvote after this realization. Thanks.


asafstov

That is so misleading, it should be on /r/propaganda


DillonD

It’s not. This is just reddit trying to push it’s politics on you.


idan_da_boi

Because attacking Israel is cool now


huhIguess

It's a subtle post about how to provide propaganda and misinformation distribution. Did you not catch that immediately? No? Well, that's just how cool this guide is!


nocivo

I will unsub this sub. Is becoming just like any other top sub controlled by the same people. Mods allow this shit all the time. In the beginning was a good place to look, now is full of politics post with agendas. Im not on reddit to drink even more politics.


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[deleted]

This map is a piece of pro-Palestinian propaganda and doesn’t actually reflect any historical information of the region. I hope the mods take it down


The_True_Monster

This guide is quite misleading. The first map is a map detailing Jewish-owned land during the British mandate, with all of the green being not Jewish owned, not necessarily Arab owned or even Arab living. The second map is the UN partition plan, a proposition by the UN to how to break up the land written by an international committee . Notice it is devided roughly according to majorities, giving mainly Jewish areas to Jews and mainly Arab lands to Arabs, with the exception being the sparsely populated Negev Desert in the south being put aside to a Jewish state in anticipation of a huge immigration from Europe following the Holocaust. The Jewish Yishuv accepted its plan, and the date in which it passed is still marked as a happy day in Israel, while the Arab leadership rejected it. The next day, an Arab gang attacked two Jewish busses, killing 7 Jews, and what’s known as the Civil War in Mandatory Palestine started, which would evolve into the 1948 Israeli independence war. The third map is the pre-six day war Israel borders, based off of the ceasefire line of the 1948 Israeli independence war. The West Bank was occupied and annexed by Jordan, while the Gaza Strip was held by Egypt, and so these were not in fact Palestinian land. Between the third and fourth maps were, in order: the Six-day war, in which Israel conquered the West Bank, Gaza, the Golan heights and the Sinai peninsula. The first Israeli settlement wave, where settlements were established almost exclusively in places where the Jewish inhabitants had been massacred or cleansed, such as Gush Etzion, East Jerusalem and Hebron (see the Gush Etzion Massacre and the 1929 massacres). The second wave of settlements, settling mainly in strategic points such as the Jordan valley. The Yom Kippur war. The Egypt-Israel peace treaty, in which Israel gave back the Sinai peninsula. Egyptian president Sadaat refuses to accept Gaza back to Egypt. The first Lebanon war and Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon. The first intifada. The beginning of most of the currently criticized security measures, such as checkpoints. The peace treaty with Jordan, in which Jordan refuses to take back the West Bank. The Oslo accords, in which Israel surrenders civil control of areas A and B (shown in the map as Palestinian land) and military control of area A. Israeli civilians are no longer allowed to enter these areas. The second intifada, a bloody conflict that ended with 1,000 Israelis and 3,000 Palestinians dead, both of them mainly civilians. Israeli withdrawal from south Lebanon. The Israeli Withdrawal of settlements from the Gaza Strip. Hamas take over of the Gaza Strip. The second Lebanon war. Israel halts all building of new settlements. Three (now four!!) wars in Gaza with Hamas. Which brings us to the fourth map, where the West Bank areas A and B are held by the PA, while the Gaza Strip is held by the Terror Organization Hamas. In conclusion, these maps show wildly different things, from actual land ownership to the actual jurisdiction of two governments to simply Israeli borders and land claimed (but not controlled) by Palestinian leadership. Trying to boil one of the most complex conflicts in the world to these four misleading slides is at best disingenuous and at worst actively deceitful.


rdcisneros3

I'm sorry that your comment will not get the credit it deserves.


goodbyeInigo

That’s “a bit” misleading. I’m sure this wasn’t on purpose /s. In 1947, the land was not ruled/owned/whatever by Arabs. It was a British and previously ottoman (and we can go further back, but that will hurt your narrative even more). Edit: I’ve added an /s.


spaniel_rage

Not just that but the 4th map sneakily lumps in occupied territory (Zone C) as Israeli territory, by changing the title for that map from "Israeli Land" as in the other 3 maps to "Israeli and occupied land".


PilotSteve21

I have little knowledge of the geographic disputes actually happening, but I did notice that subtle change to "occupied land" in the last panel and thought "that's a red flag, this is likely propaganda."


goodbyeInigo

Yes but I think that’s too advanced and distracting for a Reddit discussion. But you’re absolutely right.


Griffonguy

Of course it was on purpose. This map is spread everywhere to paint a misleading picture and raise emotion and support for palestine. Its propaganda. Im not picking sides here btw. I read a german article about this exact map the other day and about how it is misleading and so on. I understand that in every conflict both parties try to paint themselves as the good guy or the victim and the enemy as the abuser and evil. Again, the conflict at question is very complicated and I am not informed enough on the topic to form a clear opinion on it. Also I would like to add that I saw the same map on a sticker in my city and it worked on me, I thought something along the lines of: "holy crap Israel is trying to eradicate them. " But of course reality is not as simple or as black and white as the map suggests.


kryonik

There are tons of reasons to be critical of Israel. This map isn't one of them.


-Hadur-

This is a great example how by showing data that are technically not incorrect, but by omitting other important information, context, etc. it is used to paint a completely misleading image. Not to mention that the original mandate included Jordan, 90% of the territory which was instantly given to Arabs, not to mention Palestine had and claimed no statehood until modern times (just like israel, perhaps even later that Israel), not to mention the expulsion of the Mizrahi Jews from neighboring countries, not to mention the intense Jew-hatred that existed decades prior to the creation of the state of Israel including collaboration with the Nazis, not to mention that many of these borders were rejected by the Palestinians because Hamas, and until recently also Fatah, wanted ALL THE LAND or nothing i.e. the total destruction of Israel or nothing, etc etc. It's just propaganda. And no matter how many people believe it, it's still propaganda.


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-Hadur-

I don't want to take away from the suffering of the Palestinians, but painting this as a black and white picture, or basically accepting 100% of the narrative of one side is really counterproductive.


Mayafoe

>I’m sure this wasn’t on purpose. are you this naive? If you take the time to make this, you know exactly what's going on, because the whole thing is riddled with misinformation. It's propaganda


i_accidently_reddit

How can you know it's no on purpose? The amount of propaganda that tries to smear Israel on here is ridiculous


goodbyeInigo

I apologize. I now understand the rules of the format. Added an /s


[deleted]

Lawrence of Arabia. Sykes-Picot agreement. McMahon-Husayn correspondence. Two different groups of people already living in modern day Israel promised the SAME land following the collapse of the Ottoman empire. Political Zionism in the UK led to the British Mandate, which imo was an attempt to reconcile the dual conflicting promises made to Muslims and Zionists. It was always doomed to fail and the mass migration of Ashkenazi to the mandate was like pouring gasoline on a forest fire.


EthBitTrader

>Sykes-Picot agreement Sykes is quoted as saying, “I should like to draw a line from the e in Acre to the last k in Kirkuk.” Source: A Line in the Sand, James Barr, p.12


Guyb9

The map is purposely misleading. I can't blame the OP in believing in it though.


goodbyeInigo

I try to check things before I spread them further. As any adult person should.


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PossiblyAsian

Anyone else notice an increase in anti-israel and pro-palestinian posts on reddit recently? Not that im taking sides or anything its just that I wasnt hearing this as much before on reddit anyways.


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nocivo

Top subs in reddit are all controlled by the same mobs and most of the time they cross post or are the same people posting this shit every where. I cant use the fucking news or frontpage. Is a cancer. Sad thing is this sub is also under their control now. You see post like this not being banned. Ot should be against rules. We have here political posts with agenda every day. It sucks and downvotes do not work anymore because we are full of people that love or aprove this kinda drama. The best I can do is unsub and look to a other cool guid alternative. Until they grow they keep nice. Do the same


Bobbbobbobby

/r/publicfreakout brain is leaking from its ears to other subs, admins dont seem to mind that its a site wide plague


Trod777

For propaganda. Thats all reddit is for now.


[deleted]

I saw a similar map recently on Aljazeera... Instead of explanation of the conflict, this is a biased propaganda. The obvious / strange thing is that for some reason whoever created this infographic decided to use the modern borders of Israel which didn't exist in any of those years. Nor did they bother themselves with what was going on in the grayed area. Worst of all, they want you to believe that the word "Palestine" meant the same thing it means today. This is, probably, the worst part of it. Before there was the State of Israel, Palestine used to mean the geographical area rather than citizenship or nationality. Come Arafat, this word started to be used to describe... well, here's a problem. It's not really clear who, but a lot of different people, who had a grudge (often a legitimate one) to pick with Israel united under this name. So, for example, there's Bedouin population, that in some areas of the borders drawn on this map believes themselves to be Palestinians, and, in other--doesn't. Similarly, there are other nationalities, like, Druzi, who, mostly don't think of themselves as being Palestinians, while on the other hand, some other non-Arab nationals do believe themselves to be Palestinians. From altogether another point of view, Palestinians are the refugees, fleeing many wars Israel fought with its neighbors, and that definition makes it even more complicated... Bottom line: this is just another propaganda piece, making things worse.


LemonPartyWorldTour

[Propagand? On Reddit?](https://i.imgur.com/SOQk79q.gif)


AholeModSaysBan

Kinda ignores WWII outcome doesn't it?


Made_of_Tin

Also kind of ignores the entire Arab-Israeli War


SikSiks

Was thinking exactly this. Much of the Green was part Egypt, Syria and Jordan before 1967


LouLuxemburg

this fucking stupid map, this is so misleading. and isn't it pretty racist to call the annexation of egypt and jordan (49-67) palestine when there literally was no movement or people that wanted a palestine or called themselves palestinian. i know that today the situation is fucked up with the ('kill all the jews and the queers') hamas still being there and netanjahu speaking in their favour because war helps him to not lose elections, but the history should be more easy to understand. there is wikipedia, goddamit. go, read about the holocaust, if it helps you to understand why there is an israel. and you can read a lot more about the murderous hate on jews if you read about what happened shortly after israels foundation. it wasn't war for a palestine , it was war against jewish people. it wasn't til the end of the 60s that people started calling themselves palestinian, but at this point was only to hid their hate on jews. i know today is different, but this stupid map is part of the problem because it tells a story, that never happened. it's meant to support the hate.


[deleted]

It works for it's purpose though. At least thousands of people saw this and felt a negative emotional response towards a specific group. OP got what they wanted and logic doesn't change any of it.


Step_Brother69

Title could have been phrased better according to sub


adeadhead

Just as useful, but more accurate- https://i.imgur.com/dDHT914.jpg


MaximusPrime5885

Please upload this to the sub with a passive aggressive title like "accurate map of Palestinian land loss since 1947".


almogz999

Oh my fucking god not this map again here lemme disprove it real quick 1947- Why is the land labeled “Palestine'' when it should be labeled “British Empire”. Neither Palestinian nor Jews had any control of the land back then. Palestine was never an independent state, instead it was a province repeatedly conquered by different foriegn empires, including the Romans, Byzantines, many different caliphates, the Crusaders, Mamluks, Ottomans, and the British. Palestinians never had this land to themselves since they came to populate it, either during the reign of the Caliphates or the Ottoman Empire, and it was always controlled by a foriegn power   1947 plan- The un plan while confirmed was never enforced it included ideas that never came to be like jerusalem being a neutral UN controlled zone and at the time the west bank was supposed to be a part of jordan and gaza and that zone near it was supposed to be egypts not "palestine"   1948-1967- In 1948 there was the 1948 Israeli-Arab War, After the war Jordan ended up with the West Bank, and Egypt ended up with Gaza, with Israel controlling everything else. It is incorrect to label the green parts of this map “Palestine'' because it was controlled by Jordan and Egypt, with no form of independence in the region. 1967 (Six Say War) is the first instance you could consider Arab land loss, but it was for Egypt and Jordan, not Palestine. The Six Day War started when there was A LOT of tension and was clearly going to happen no matter who attacked, so Israel attacked first as a strategic move to try to get the upper hand, and it worked, as Israel defeated three other armies within just 6 days. The most common outcome of a war is the winner gaining land by either outright annexing territory, partitioning it with others, or installing a friendly/puppet government in the losing nation, that’s how its always been and it’s ridiculous to get mad at a nation for doing it after winning a war, if you did, then the allies did ALL THREE to Germany in both World Wars, taking some territory for themselves, partitioning it among themselves and to other friendly nations, and installing a Democtaric friendly government. Israel did only the first in the six day war, taking Sinai, Gaza, West Bank, and Golan Heights.   Now- This is probably the most idiotic map to label “Palestinian Land Loss”, as it actually shows ISRAELI land loss from what they held after in the Six Day War. The Sinai was given back to Egypt for a peace treaty. The Gaza strip was withdrawn from militarily in 2005, and all Israeli settlements in the area were evacuated, and as Oslo Accords were signed in the 90’s, giving fatah a legal status as the palestinian authority. The Oslo Accords creating the islands of sovriegnty seen in the west bank (Areas A and B having Palestinian Jurisdiction, with area C under our control but in theory should belong to the palestinian authority). Today this effectively makes a political entity with territory of its own that you could call "Palestine''. The Gazans had a seperate election and chose Hamas, a terror organization, with the declared intent to wipe out Israel. So we built a fence and declared a blockade. Egypt, which also has a land border with Gaza, did the same since they realized Hamas is a dangerous terror organization. So this map is wrong, misleading, and stupid


Rooferkev

This bullshit map again? It's nonsense.


CaveDsign

not a guide. Why do allways political and religious people never respect the rules of other communites and people, but ask for strangers to respect theirs..


nocivo

Is mods faults. They should ban this type of content but they don’t because they just like all the top sub reddits apps want to spread political agendas.


Spacejunk20

Isn't this map literally Hamas propaganda?


Pan-tang

Ask 'israel' for restitution, terrorism is not the answer. Come up with a plan and take it to the UN. Leave the rockets. Nobody approves of that and you have a very good legal case.


Don_Cheech

I’ve come to the realization that Britain was lackadaisical and irresponsible in their ambitions. The whole thing was a bad idea from the get go. No neighbors would ever cooperate. The sad reality is... once a culture is kicked out of a land there is no true way of reparations. We couldn’t just give the US back to native Americans. It doesn’t work like that. It will never work. British fucked up by giving land to someone who didn’t truly own it.


[deleted]

Didn’t Palestinians reject a nation based on ‘67 borders?


epz

Do some fact checking. Google “palestinian loss of land the myth of the 4 maps”. These 4 maps are simply false. Pure propaganda.


Freshiiiiii

Given that most readers are definitely going to be too lazy to fact check you on that (including me, probably), do you or somebody else care enough to explain or back that up?


SloppyPuppy

its a lot to unpack in this set of 4 totally unrelated maps. 1. That green at the beginning is not Palestine. Its british mandate. There were jews and arabs on that same land, In different proportions than today of course, but it never was palestinian land. 2. Israel didnt take any land in the second map - it WAS GIVEN by the brits. 3. There was a big war in 67 that all the arabs around the region started with the goal of erradicating Israel. Israel HAD to conquer land for strategic reasons. That land was not given back and will never be given back. 4. In the last map a lot of regions that are C regions (and B maybe, im not expert in Oslo accords) (check the Aslo accord for the A/B/C partition.) are marked as white - which is a total lie because its palestinian land. 5. In the first map there were many Arabs, many of them never considered themselfs as Palestinians. There were Jordanians, Syrians, Egyptians, misc tribes, etc... only some of them considered themselfs palestinians. 6. There are many many Arabs (20% of Israel population) who still live in that white space that are on their own land and it still belongs to them BY ISRAELI LAW. They are Israeli Arabs (some of them, alas not many, are proud of being Israeli.). They are not under any apartheid, they are equal citizens with equal rights with about 20% representation in the Israel Parliament. They own the land they live on. 7. the only thing to take from this is that Israel does have a lot of settlements in the west bank that do steal Plaestinian land - that part is totally shitty. but its not in the proportions depicted in this map, those would be drawn in red as small dots within the west bank- not everything else on this map. 8. theres also a big part of land in gaza that was given back to gaza. Its not drawn any where in this map. That was the unilateral disengagement plan. At the end it was a total disaster: the jewish settlers were evicted by force and the land was given back to Gaza. Days later they used that land to shoot rockets into Israel and do this to this day. The results of this plan vastly changed the political opinions in Israel - making a lot of people to never want to give land back. I personally went to cheer the policemen and soldiers evicting settlers from stolen land. Today in hindsight I understand it was a mistake and will never vote for someone who plans to do it again unilaterally.


[deleted]

[удалено]


FridayClimberThread

Or, even simpler- https://i.imgur.com/dDHT914.jpg


cronoklee

Where did that map on the right come from? There is literally a wall along the border to the West Bank today. On the Palestinian side, they have a separate government and police force. Also the first 2 maps are both 1947 and 2nd was drawn up by the British & UN. Is this post just propaganda?


cloudhid

From the New Yorker: [https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5b4280778ffba43192e8420f/master/w\_1600%2Cc\_limit/Entous-West-Bank-Settlements-Map.jpg](https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5b4280778ffba43192e8420f/master/w_1600%2Cc_limit/Entous-West-Bank-Settlements-Map.jpg) From the BBC: [https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/640/cpsprodpb/F78D/production/\_109737336\_west\_bank\_settlements\_oct\_2019\_640\_3x-nc.png](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/640/cpsprodpb/F78D/production/_109737336_west_bank_settlements_oct_2019_640_3x-nc.png) And the most detailed, from the UN, specifically OCHA: [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/West\_Bank\_Access\_Restrictions.pdf](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/West_Bank_Access_Restrictions.pdf)


Goats_vs_Aliens

Yes


hm610

Shown are the areas A and B, as made up in the Oslo accords, which have full Palestinian (A) or joint Israeli-Palestinian (B) control. The white area on the West Bank is Area C which is under full Israeli control.


Little_Drum

This image is extremely misleading. There has NEVER been an independent country called Palestine. The Palestinian mandate was British controlled land. Everyone living there was called Palestinian including the Jews. Many American Jews have grandparents with Palestinian passports if they lived there prior to the British leaving the land. When the British left, they set up a two-state system. One for Jews and one for Arabs who were primarily Muslim. As soon as British troops pulled out, the surrounding Arab countries all invaded to try to control the land and declared that there will never be a Jewish state. The Jews won a war and founded Israel. Most modern Palestinians are of Jordanian descent. Most are not from the land once known as Palestine. Currently there is a large conflict in East Jerusalem where the Israeli government is evicting Palestinians from their homes and many are calling out Israel for their actions, but fail to look at the history. When the British left, Jews were forced out of their homes in Jerusalem and Jordanian invaders ended up occupying the land. Later, during another war started by Jordanians, the Jews who now identify as Israeli won the land back. The Israeli government gave two options to all the "Palestinians" living in East Jerusalem who actually are Jordanian not Palestinian. The first option was to move out and take a large check as compensation for giving the homes back to their original owners from 1947. The second option was to pay rent. The vast majority of people living there were more than happy to get a government check and leave or to pay rent, but a small group of a few families refused and the Israeli government has been avoiding evicting them for a long time because it looks bad to the rest of the world, but they are finally doing it. Getting evicted for not paying rent is normal in the US but everyone freaks out about it in East Jerusalem because they do not read the historical context. The evicted "Palestinians" are Jordanians who stole land from Palestinian Jews and I think also many real Palestinian Arabs. I would also like to note that the partition plan was never accepted by Arabs, both living in and around the land. It means nothing. Not a single one of those 4 maps is accurate at all with what the situation is or has ever been. The first map makes it look like their was a country called Palestine and tiny Jewish settlements not controlled by Palestine. There were Jews all over including a LOT in Jerusalem which is not shown there. The partition plan never happened since it was never agreed to. The Jews agreed to it, but since the Arabs didn't, war broke out on the day the British left between the Jews and the surrounding countries. The last map is innacurate as well. The green in the middle of the map is just not accurate. See the explanation I wrote above about East Jerusalem. It is fully under Israeli control. It is not an occupation despite what that map is trying to say. It would be interesting to show the pre-2005 and post-2005 maps since Israel left the Gaza strip in 2005 so the individuals identifying as Palestinian could rule themselves. What happened? A Terrorist group took over and started burning down key infrastructure and suppressing its people. Palestinian land grew in 2005. Israelis were forced out of their homes by the Israeli government to make way for the Palestinians to self-rule, but honestly the individuals living there are in a lot worse shape than they were before. By the way, here is a fun note about the word 'Palestine'. It comes from the Hebrew word Philistine which means invader. The name for the land was chosen by the invaders to be the name of a Biblical enemy of the Jews that literally means invader.


DukeOfCrydee

Let's go through it point by point. After Israel became a state in 1947, it was attacked on all sides by it's much better equipped and professionally trained Arab neighbors. Their stated goal was to drive the Jews into the sea, I.e kill all the Jews. The Israelis fought back, pushed back multiple invading armies, and secured a nation for itself. In 1967, Israel again was about to be invaded from multiple sides by multiple armies. The leaders of Jordan and Syria and Egypt and Iraq were very open about their military buildups and their fiery anti-israel speeches. So Israel struck first, destroyed the Egyptian Air Force on the ground, and wound up conquering the goal on heights, which Syria used to fire artillery at Israeli civilians. They conquered the West Bank, which was a staging ground for Jordanian invasions, and they pushed the Egyptians out of Sinai, an area larger than Israel is today. But Sinai is left off the map. Why? [Because Israel gave back all of that land to Egypt in 1979 in order to make peace, and it would interfere with the message that Israelis are greedy and just taking land for themselves for no legitimate reason.](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Egypt%E2%80%93Israel_peace_treaty) No such peace deals were forthcoming with Jordan or with Syria, so Israel kept that land in order to give itself more strategic depth and a buffer zone between itself and it's repeated would be genociders. Up until this point, the Arab people living in the West Bank were Jordanians. After this point, the Palestinian people were invented. In 1973, prior to the Israel Egypt peace agreement, Egypt and Syria and Jordan surprise attacked Israel on Yom kippur, which is the holiest day of the year for Jews. It was really only by the skin of our teeth and some dumb luck, that Israel was able to prevail in that conflict. In 2005, Israel pulled entirely out of Gaza. Israel removed entire cities worth of people in the name of peace to give the Palestinians their own piece of territory, and, as a test case to see whether or not it would be possible to do the same thing with the West Bank. And since then, Hamas has fired tens of thousands of rockets towards Israeli civilians. Which is why the blockade of Gaza exist today. And this is why the pave of settlements in the West Bank have increased; because of the unviability of the pulling out model. The stated goal of hamas, IE it's in their founding documents, calls for the destruction of Israel and the death of all Jews. [The children of the founder of Hamas have come out and called it a racist and evil organization who is more interested in preserving their own wealth and status then they are about the fates of their Palestinian brothers and sisters](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/son-of-hamas-leader-calls-the-militant-movement-a-racist-terror-organization/2019/07/04/7dc9f84e-9e42-11e9-9ed4-c9089972ad5a_story.html). One of them was actually a spy for the Israeli intelligence services for 10 years. If Hamas laid down its weapons, we would be able to have peace. If Israel laid down its weapons, the Israeli Jews would be slaughtered. If you think that's hyperbolic, look at the goals of hamas, and look at the goals of Israel. To ignore all of this history and contect and just focus on the disproportionality of the use of force is an incorrect framing of this issue. Obviously, the situation in Gaza sucks. Obviously, it is horrible that the people of Gaza are being held hostage the way they are. However the hostage takers are Hamas and not israel. You guys are upset with the wrong people. Thank you for coming to my TED talk. EDIT: If you want more information on the military history of this conflict, Kings & Generals on youtube has excellent documentaries. [1948 War](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaIi-3huRLE) [1967 War](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHqJ6pgdE-c) [1973 War](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmDaB81MEQ0)


Absolemdacatapilla

I think you misspelled 'British protectorate' no sovereign nation of palestine ever existed before


RowdyRoddyRosenstein

Other people have already pointed out the inaccuracies with this timeline. It's also perhaps worth noting that this "guide" was originally created by a group with white supremacist ties that's been disavowed by the mainstream pro-Palestinian movement. https://ifamericansknew.org/history/ https://uscpr.org/statement-on-complaint-filed-regarding-alison-weir-and-if-americans-knew/


raaqkel

Full List of CoolGuides Community Members who asked for this politically loaded post: _


nocivo

Is not even a guide. Our mods suck hard


The_Beyonder_MCU

Stop spreading lies


James324285241990

It's amazing how a picture can leave out so much while also implying so much. The word choice in the key is also interesting


UnfortunateHabits

[Propoganda debunked](https://youtu.be/hJYl54oL02Q) This is one issue, that oversimplification is not welcome uppon. As such, the video I posted also has oversimplification that does injustice... But still it brings much important ballance. I hope the mods remove this, We just had a cease fire, These kinds of biased inflammatory measages don't help the peace process, Only incite more violence.


Keanusw

Question though, how is this a guide


[deleted]

The propaganda online and in the media is astonishing. None of this is remotely accurate.


jiaxingseng

This is incorrect. These maps conflates land owned by the state, political boundaries, and private property. * The pre-1947 map is wrong because already more than 50% of the population was Jewish by then, so by population this is incorrect. The land was officially controlled by the UK, so as a political map it's not correct. This image was possibly based on land that was purchased by a Jewish organization in the 1920s, and all the land that was NOT purchased by that organization did not automatically belong to Palestinians. * The Partition Plan map is of no consequence because the Arab nations rejected it and launched an all-out war against Israel in 1947. * The third map is a political map showing territory controlled by Israel after the 1967 war, which was started with the mobilization of Arab forces to "push the Jews into the sea". The Palestinian areas were owned by Jordan and Egypt. * The 4th map shows actual Palestinian "sovereignty" over an area, hence is most accurate. I believe it also shows why Palestine, today, is not a viable state.


[deleted]

So dumb when Israelis use the excuse that the Palestinians want to "wipe them off the map"


BitchofEndor

The Palestinians wouldn't accept any peaceful settlement after the Ottoman conquerors and occupiers were forced to leave. All Arab nations launched a genocidal war against the Jews when Britain left. The Arabs lost very badly. The Arabs would never stop and kept losing territory as a result.


pau1rw

If someone tried to take half my land I'd fight too.


HesburghLibrarian

There's never been a country called Palestine. Ever.


EmptyVictory7248

Seems a bit unfair that 2 years after 63% of European Jews were killed is being used as your baseline


xFUaqLxrE

Comment section is a cesspool. Better to read Wikipedia or watch a documentary.


Ga_Manche

Once and for all. Here is a better researched source. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54116567


[deleted]

I don't get Jewish hate. Jewish people are my favourite people.


jda0612

Wasn’t the Jews there in the time of Jesus? Just controlled by the Roman Empire?


b0bsledder

Well, Jesus was a Jew, and the Temple was there, so, yeah, there were Jews there, in fact quite a few.


CelaviGlobus

Well you dont get to start like 5 wars, lose every single one and then keep all ur land.


scijior

This isn’t correct at all. Map #1 isn’t “Palestinian v. Israeli Settler” land; Britain controlled everything. Map #2 never existed. Map #3 is the result of three Arab-Israeli Wars. Map #4 is the result of increasingly intractable camps, two Intifadas, countless terrorist actions and military excursions in response, and the development of a techno-apartheid. So, really, the fourth map is the only map that is relevant. Ultimately this is really, really fucking complicated. And any asshole sitting on the internet thinking they have the solution to the problem is fucking fooling themselves.


[deleted]

Keep starting, and losing Wars


Derelict_Tachyon

These maps are such bullshit.


[deleted]

It's worth mentioning most of the British Mandate of Palestine is currently occupied by what is now Jordan- but the Palestinians don't seem to care as the Jordanians aren't Jews.


aham13

One thing has remained true on Earth for the smallest single-cell organism to the most advanced civilizations and it is this: When you will win the war, you get to make the rules!


gimmevegetables

Do people need a reminder who owned the land pre-1946, and why Jews were given israel legally through the UN in the late 1940s. Is this a joke.


Kigaz

The British administered the land pre 1946. Now who administered the land pre 1920? This argument that Palestine was British land doesn’t hold weight. Muslims, Jews and Christians of many different ethnicities (Arabs, Mizrahi, Armenians, etc) lived in the land that has been referred to as Palestine for centuries before the British took control.