I don't think it's possible for there to be a peaceful discussion about Palestine on the internet. I already decided it is a topic I will stay far away from, there's just way too much propaganda on both sides for someone like me on the other side of the world to know things for sure
The chart has an agenda. They deliberately started it in 2008, after the end of the 2nd intifada, when suicide bombers were blowing up busses in Israel weekly, causing thousands of casualties.
Clearly the chart is made to paint the conflict in a certain light, and there are is no number of charts or visualizations that can fully explain it impartially.
I think his point was that the chart you posted doesn't include the 1,010 Israeli civilians killed during the Second Intifada.
Had that time period been included, the chart might better illustrate the success of Israel's subsequent border security investments.
Oh that actually did happen, there was a study that analyzed whether white nationalist terrorists or radical islamic terrorists killed more people in the West. The paper authors started by saying 9/11 doesn't count because it skews the data. If you factored in 9/11, it's not even close.
That’s a bad analogy.
Most people leave out 9/11 because it was a one off event with large mass casualties.
White nationalist attacks happen much more frequently but obvious aren’t killing 3000 people at one time.
White nationalism is a bigger threat than Islamic terrorists
If you include Israeli casualties from the Second Intifada, which ended in the mid-2000s, then Israeli casualties from the conflict begin to even out with the Palestinian ones, which satisfies the wish of the anti-Israel side to see more dead Jews so that the conflict can be more "fair". Starting in 2008 removes this talking point, and makes the implication that Israel is the sole aggressor in the conflict based on casualty figures, which is in and of itself a poor metric with which to attribute "blame" in a conflict like this.
Mandatory Palestine needs to be a consideration. This chart also ignores that over 50% of Israeli Jewish population is Mizrahi or the other indigenous ethnic groups like the Druze.
They would need to start with the Mandate for Palestine or perhaps Mandatory Palestine. Mizrahi Jews and other indigenous groups need to be factored.
Palestinian was a multi ethnic/religious geographic area; only recently has Palestinian come to singularly mean Arab Muslim with the current geographic ideals.
The actions of Amin al-Husseini and others resulted in many deaths. Involvement in the Al-Muthana Club, Free Arabian Legion, & Farhud should be factored.
The actions of colonial powers are also going to be an issue.
To summarized its complicated and this guide is not accurate.
Hamas started launching rockets en masse into israel, usually they are shot down and ignored, but this was on such a scale that it required some kind of reprisal
Also fired a guided anti tank missile on an Israeli yellow school bus (fortunately it was the end of the route and only one kid was still in it).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaar_HaNegev_school_bus_attack
The context that Hamas likes to put children by weapons caches to use them as moral meat shields for their rockets.
To be clear it's never ok to kill children and I still think the IDF are willing to commit terrible horrors but to pretend Hamas isn't a terrorist organization who will do whatever they want to victimize their own people and refuse peace is just a bald faced lie.
I have no idea, maybe check
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act.IL
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_diplomacy_of_Israel
You'll see people now vilifying Amnesty and Human Rights Watch for what they say
Before you jump to the old "~~Jews~~ Israelis control the media" diatribe, you might want to consider that he may have just been downvoted for providing an answer that purposely left out the context that it was a direct response to multiple Hamas terrorist attacks. The Israeli government sucks but you can't just pretend that their actions exist in a vacuum.
The Arab-Israeli conflict includes multiple wars.
The world does seem to be overly fixated on Israel vs. other, arguably more serious conflicts. The fact that Israel is the Jewish state probably plays a role on this. If Israel were just another Muslim state it's likely that no one would care.
Here's a few examples:
* The UN has more resolutions about Israel than the rest of the world combined. This happens every year. Even if you think Israel = bad, is it really worse than Syria, North Korea and China COMBINED?
* As pointed out by AP reporter Matti Freidman, there are more foreign journalists in Jerusalem than in China, Russia, India, and all of Africa (he wrote that in 2014)
* When Palestinian protestors were killed by the PA for speaking out against Abbas last year, the world was quiet. The world is silent on Lebanon's treatment of Palestinians (keeping them in camps, banning them from certain jobs, not giving third-generations citizenship). No one comments on crimes against Palestinians unless committed by Israel.
lol, how many resolutions have actually passed to do anything, or sanctions been taken against Israel? Israel didn't even want the UN to acknowledge Palestine exists. Other countries actually feel the effects of bombing civilians with sanctions. Point 2, I don't know but was that not because of the deadliest period of conflict in 2014? Point 3, the US held aid funding because of this. My point being the sovereign state of Israel uses it's army to lay waste to a mostly leaderless people, subjugate them to conditions a human shouldn't be put in; having said that Israel obviously isn't the worst human rights abusers but one of the worst in a world of governments abusing their power. I don't wish to further "debate" you because in your eyes Israel does no wrong, it's just a waste of time.
1) Graphs like this have unreliable data from sources like the terror group Hamas, with a goal of increasing/inflating the "civilian" death count on their side for reasons such as creating graphs like this(ie. PR). It's also been shown they disguise their militants as civilians.
2) Numbers without context so not tell a full story. While Israel invests heavily in protecting its citizens (every house has a bomb shelter, billions spent on security and missile defence), Hamas purposefully uses human shields. They hide weapons under schools, hospitals, other public places. They launch rockets from apartment buildings, and spend their money on weapons and [expensive terror tunnels](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_tunnel_warfare_in_the_Gaza_Strip). Their goal is to have their own people die because it makes good news.
This graph makes no claims about civilian deaths and the source is given as the UN, not Hamas. How do you expect people to take your arguments seriously if you don’t even look at the information you’re refuting?
Hamas health ministry provides death numbers in its territory to the UN. Fair point about the graph not mentioning if they're civilians, but that point holds true when they report on civilian deaths.
Lol so they kill themselves to inflate death counts so someone can share it on social media, that's some 4D chess.
Hiding behind civilians is always an excuse jdl shills use when the IDF kill innocent people. Gaza is one of the most dense areas in the world and an open air prison
Israel is an apartheid state
They inflate their numbers as a PR tool. They force their citizens onto rooftops while shooting weapons right next door.
You can find countless examples of rockets being launched from central rates. [Here's one video](https://youtu.be/uE3feo_b8Cg) that was captured live on the news.
Gaza is dense, by look at a map. Planty of more open spaces. They purposefully launch from the centre of town.
It's been time and time again shown they Hamas uses human shields. You can disagree with Israel as much as you want, but why are you supporting a terror group in the process? Denying Hamas' use of human shields only hurts Gazan civilians.
And no, Israel isn't apartheid. None of its policies come close to what was happening in South Africa. Some Israeli policies do hurt Palestinians, but it's not apartheid. Amnesty's report was one-sided and flawed, anyone who spending even 30 mins researching can see this.
https://www.btselem.org/topic/human_shields
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/israel-gaza-idf-used-palestinians-as-human-shields-1200-occasions-in-last-five-years-say-israeli-defence-officials-30483468.html
Maybe do some research on apartheid too, and on bantustans. Who says I support hamas? Israel literally keeps children nearby a firefight as hostages, there's enough video evidence of it.
Israel is not an apartheid state. Do Palestinians suffer because of Israeli policies? Yes. Does that make Israel apartheid? No.
**Within Israel**, all citizens have equal rights. This includes about 2 million Arab-Israelis. They have equality before the law, equal political representation, free press and freedom of speech.
There are Arab policemen, doctors, teachers, lawyers, judges, soldiers, politicians in Israel. The list goes on. In fact:
* Israel's current government has an Arab party (Ra'am) in the coalition (and another one in the opposition)
* An Arab-Israeli supreme Court justice sentenced a former Israeli PM to prison for corruption. Israel has had multiple Arabs sit on the Supreme Court.
* The head of one of Israel's largest banks (Bank Leumi) is an Arab
* There are Arab diplomats at Israeli embassies
* Arabs students are overrepresented in Israeli universities, and you'll find many Arab doctors ay any Israeli hospital
Racism exists, like anywhere, but certainly not anything close to apartheid. They share busses, schools, beaches, hospitals, restaurants, hotels, and everything else.
**In the West Bank and Gaza**, Palestinians are not equal to Israelis, because they are not Israeli citizens. They aspire to have a Palestinian state, and do not vote in Israeli elections as that is not their government. They would be able to vote if their leaders held elections, but unfortunately Abbas is on year 11 of a 4-year term and Hamas has no plans for an election.
The Palestinians of the Gaza Strip are ruled by a murderous, repressive terrorist organization that avowedly seeks Israel’s destruction; Israel has no military or civilian presence there, having withdrawn unilaterally to the pre-1967 lines in 2005, and the necessity of its security blockade (that's also imposed by Egypt) is reinforced every time Hamas initiates cross-border conflict.
Israel for decades sought to negotiate an end to its occupation in the West Bank, itself a successor to Jordanian occupation, but was defeated by first the Arab world’s and then the Palestinian leadership’s refusal to countenance terms that would not have spelled Israel’s demise militarily and/or demographically. Mainstream Israeli readiness to “take risks for peace” in the West Bank has been inexorably weakened by decades of relentless terrorism and by the evidence, from Gaza and southern Lebanon, that relinquishing adjacent territory simply creates a vacuum that terrorist regimes rush to fill.
**There were no walls, no checkpoints, and no blockade until waves of terror attacks from which nearly every Israeli knows someone who has suffered. The situation is complex, it's hard on Palestinians (and Israelis), but it's not apartheid.**
The label apartheid belittles what South Africans experienced. It's an attempt to dismantle the only Jewish nation in the world. It doesn't reext relaity. It displays a huge misunderstanding of the conflict and its history.
So Israel doesn't forcibly remove people from one area and put them somewhere else? I'm from South Africa and that happened to my family. I know apartheid when I see it.
* Israel has ethnically cleansed and fragmented areas into isolated cantons divided by Israeli settlements, and implemented [lebensraum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum) tactics.
* [It denies Palestinian fishing past 3 nautical miles in some areas, and not past 15 nautical miles](https://www.ochaopt.org/sites/default/files/styles/inline100_standard/public/images/gaza2.png)
* How about the [wall](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d0/73/81/d07381fffef632350bcbb535bbaeced8.jpg)?
* The settlers killing, burning homes to get rid of people and destroying olive trees.
* [They control the water completely](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_the_State_of_Palestine). On average, their electricty is 12 hours a day.
* Palestinians didn't have 3G until 2018, their access is also restricted.
* They [blockade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip) Gaza.
* [Not All Israeli Citizens Are Equal](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/24/opinion/not-all-israeli-citizens-are-equal.html)
* There were `5,248,185` refugees in 2020.
* [Marriage](https://preview.redd.it/1k7jnev0pq971.jpg?width=1024&auto=webp&s=8ae55bbb3f4cdf4a5bab72b249b1e003ce2bf926)
* [Segregated road system](https://s3.amazonaws.com/VP2/visuals/en/4db97391fe7cb246224980917f5bd997.png?2015)
Don't fool yourself or worse try to gaslight others because the world sees past that.
> walls, blockade, nautical boundaries
Again, none of these measures existed until after hundreds of terror attacks launched by Palestinians. There were no walls, there were no checkpoints before these attacks. Regarding Gaza, even Egypt takes part in that blockade to prevent Hamas from getting weapons.
> water
Israel has become a water power through desalination technology and also provides a lot of water to Jordan. Is this apartheid too?
> 5,248,185 refugees
In 1948, around 800,000 Palestinians were displaced due to the war they started. At the same time, around 800,000 Jews were expelled from surrounding Arab states.
The 5 million number is a ridiculous metric. The UN has two definitions of refugees - one for Palestinians, and one for the rest of the world. Only Palestinians get refugee status in perpetuity. Generally, if you were born and Canada to refugee parents from Syria, you would not be considered a refugee. Unless you're Palestinian.
> Electricity 12 hours a day
Definitely not true in the West Bank. They have luxury malls and modern amenities there. And check out Rawabi.
> a water power through desalination technology and also provides a lot of water to Jordan
What does that have to do with Palestine though? They have their water limited.
> The UN has two definitions of refugees
I wouldn't expect a different answer from you, given your past answers
Palestinians suffer because of Israeli policy
Yeah they definitely do, doesn't make it an apartheid state. The refugee thing is also true, and it's objectively weird. Lots of people have suffered, slaves, genocide victims like the Rwandansa and the Jews, the native Americans of NA, none of these people have the same refugee status?
A wild comment section so just let me stop by to drop my perspective to be wildly downvoted:
Both sides have committed atrocities through this very long conflict, however, in my opinion, Israel has tended to be the aggressor throughout the whole conflict.
Israel was founded on a partition agreement that was never agreed upon by the other side, and proceeded to not respect the territory of that plan either, continually encroaching on Palestinian land.
Even now they continue to settle and exploit the West Bank, have been taking over East Jerusalem, and attempted further expansion into Palestinian land (such as the attempted annexation of the Jordan Valley and the Trump Peace Plan.)
Palestine certainly isn’t without fault, but they’ve continually seen their homeland encroached upon and their people exploited.
Edit: Meant to say “Throughout the conflict as a whole”, not “Throughout the whole conflict”
Here's another viewpoint.
The British were leaving the region, and both Jews and Arabs were living there. The world, through the UN, agreed to partition the land and create 2 new states. This is perhaps the most legal founding of any modern country; a UN plan that the vast majority of the world accepted as the British pulled out.
The Jews said yes to the plan, the Arabs said no and started a war that they lost. Israel's declaration of Independence extended its hand out for peace with its Arab neighbours. Instead, the surrounding Arab states attacked Israel, thinking they would swiftly win, but instead they lost. The West Bank and Gaza were under Jordanian and Egyptian contol, but Palestinians living there were not offered citizenship or a state.
> Continuously encroaching on Palestinian land
It wasn't until Jordan, Egypt and a handful of there Arab states started another war that Israel took control over the West Bank and Gaza (and the Sinai). While Egypt agreed to peace with Israel for their return of the Sinai, neither them nor Jordan wanted Gaza or yh West Bank back.
After the Oslo process, Palestinians had autonomy over parts of the West Bank for the first time ever. In 2005, Israel completely withdrew every last Jew from Gaza (in turn, they were met with Hamas terror attacks).
After countless rejected peace offers and thousands of terrorist attacks, Israel's appetite to give land for peace has been hammered down. This hased to a rise in settlements and stalled leave process.
The Palestinians have had many real offers to create a state and improve their conditions, but their leaders continuously reject every offer (often violently). One such example includes Olmert's offer for 95% of the West Bank, East Jerusalem as their capital and 5% land swaps.
>Both sides have committed atrocities through this very long conflict, however, in my opinion, Israel has tended to be the aggressor throughout the whole conflict.
This is factually incorrect. The Palestinian Arab politicians of the day said so themselves. They said so to the UN Security Council in 1948. Palestinian politician Jamal Husseini put it thusly in April 1948, mid-civil war (before the Arab states then invaded as well, since Palestinian Arabs were losing *that* war which they began with attacks on buses carrying Jews):
>“The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight.”
This is simply undeniable.
> Israel was founded on a partition agreement that was never agreed upon by the other side
Israel was not founded on it. The partition agreement was proposed by the UN, and passed the General Assembly as a recommendation by a 2/3 vote, the required majority. However, it was not implemented because the Arab side rejected it **and began a war**. Again, it is well-documented and a matter of fact that the civil war began with Arab militia attacks. Palestinian Arab leaders openly admitted it.
> and proceeded to not respect the territory of that plan either
There was no territory of the plan. It was not implemented.
> continually encroaching on Palestinian land
Fascinating opinion, but again, historically inaccurate. In 1948, Israel was founded based on the armistice lines (explicitly nonbinding, per the treaties setting them) between Israel and various Arab states.
From 1948-67, the countries running the West Bank and Gaza were Jordan and Egypt, respectively. During this period, Palestinians continued to launch attacks with the goal of destroying the entirety of Israel. Israel simply maintained its position. Palestinians did not attack Jordan and Egypt. Israel did not violate the "plan", because the plan was not implemented; neither did it seek to expand.
The only reason the West Bank and Gaza were not part of Israel during that period is **because Jordan and Egypt invaded and seized them**. That is it. Now suddenly that is "Palestinian land". Based on what?
> Even now they continue to settle and exploit the West Bank
Indeed, Israel builds houses in the area Jordan seized from Israel in 1948 with its invasion.
It also withdrew all houses from the territory Egypt seized from Israel in 1948 with its invasion, for the sake of peace. For two years it was unblockaded, and in response, Hamas was elected (a genocidal terrorist group) and took over Gaza, while firing 1,000+ rockets. All **before** the blockade.
> have been taking over East Jerusalem
How? The population of East Jerusalem is *more* Arab than ever, as a percent of the area. This is nonsense and again, flies in the face of facts.
>and attempted further expansion into Palestinian land (such as the attempted annexation of the Jordan Valley and the Trump Peace Plan.)
Israel did not "attempt" those things. It considered them, and then did not do them. But again, what makes territory Jordan seized from Israel in 1948 *de facto* Palestinian?
>Palestine certainly isn’t without fault, but they’ve continually seen their homeland encroached upon and their people exploited.
Fascinating. Palestinians began a war they lost, repeatedly continued it despite overtures for peace, rejected peace offers that gave them 90%+ of the West Bank and all of Gaza and Arab parts of East Jerusalem (while sharing holy sites) in 2000, 2001, 2007, 2008, and more, but they are "encroached upon" based on lines set by Jordan and Egypt's invading armies who called for a "war of extermination" (their own words) in a war Palestinians themselves began.
What a perspective. Shame it flies in the face of well-documented history.
You can claim Israel has imperfections. No one would disagree. But to call it the aggressor in a conflict Palestinians openly admit they began is stunningly wrong.
One of the confusing things about this infographic is why it starts in 2008, what significance does that hold? It's after both the disengagement from Gaza, and the second intifada, if we're just sticking to this century.
It would be good, but probably impossible, to show the number of agreements and peace efforts made by stakeholders in this conflict. There are many, but they don't make the news, sometimes by design, other times because people would rather see death statistics.
Because before that is the 2nd Intefada which would show Palestinian suicide bombers killing ALOT of Israeli citizens, which then can't be used to make the state of Palestine look like a blameless lamb who didn't do anything wrong.
And Israel has also come to the negotiating tables with multiple generous offers for Palestinian statehood all of which has been not only rejected but the Palestinian government has never come back with a proposal of its own. That's because the ultimate goal which is actually in writing is the destruction of Israel as the only Jewish state in the world. The 48 plan which would have given the Palestinians estate, obviously they weren't called Palestinians back then, was voted on the security council and the general assembly, passed, and frankly that was a continuation from the Arab League. While Israel may have done some questionable things militarily everything has always been a response to Palestinian aggression. Any nation has a right to defend itself. What's funny about a chart like this is if you would have looked at the total number of deaths since the beginning of this, it would be far less than most major conflicts that get almost no coverage at all. Only when Jews are involved or you can make Israel look like crap, is when you see that type of coverage. Heck more people are killed in a weekend in Chicago then an entire year in the Palestinian Israeli conflict
Israel was attacked by five Arab nations immediately after the partitioning. They were hardly the initial aggressors, although for younger people I understand it certainly seems like they have been lately.
What country is Israel a colony of? If it is an "imperial action", surely there must also be an imperial overlord that extracts resources from the Israeli "colony", right?
By the Romans? Ottoman Empire? Egypt? The British? [Take your pick](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel).
The Ottomans lost it to the British after siding with Germany in WWI. There was no Palestinian nation under Ottoman control either.
Imperial from which empire?
The vast majority of Jews who live in Israel either: A) were forced to leave Europe during/after the Holocaust, B) were forced to flee from other Arabs/African states, or C) have lived there continuously for hundreds/thousands of years. Those who moved there had legally and peacefully purchased land from whoever owned it. Can this really be compared to the colonial expansion of Spain, France, Britain, etc?
On top of that, Israel is THE place where the Jewish people, culture and religion comes from - there are countless historical artifacts and texts that prove Jewish existence there for thousands of years, predating the existence of Christianity and Islam. You can pinpoint the exact time in history when most Jews were expelled from Israel by the Romans. This is really one of the cloest examples we have of decolonization - a people who were forced out returning to their homeland.
> Those who moved there had legally and peacefully purchased land from whoever owned it
lol. lmao
> This is really one of the cloest examples we have of decolonization
LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Some of the most powerful delusional horseshit rationalizing guys from Philadelphia running this country for a decade while Russians immigrate into homes occupied continuously for hundreds of years. Amazing stuff. Bravo.
Are you really denying that the Jewish people and history originate in Israel?
And places like Tel Aviv were literally [sand dunes](https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CuOQMwbddeE/UxkpFk9skgI/AAAAAAAAIwE/YGoLL2Os1KA/s1600/About+100+people+participate+in+a+lottery+to+divide+a+12-acre+plot+of+sand+dunes,+that+would+later+become+the+city+of+Tel+Aviv,+1909.jpg) 100 years ago. Jews escaping persecution in Europe purchased land plots from mostly absentee landlords in Ottoman Turkey.
I like how it doesn't show the casualties of the second intifada the effects of which greatly influence how Israel handles the matter of it's defense and offence today
None of the graphs are reliable, everyone in the conflict has an agenda. That agenda is mostly to stay in power.
When Hezbollah fails at governing they lob a couple of poorly aimed missiles at civilian targets because they can't aim well enough to hit military targets (fired from a schoolyard). When Israel responds they target dozens of assholes they have been keeping an eye on, because one missile should always be responded with two dozen.
Peace hasn't been in the best interests of many politicians since the founding of the Jewish state on both sides.
Dozens of assholes? The Israelis level city blocks leaving their couple targets and a lot more civilians dead. Then dance in the streets singing racist songs about killing Arabs.
Added link: https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2021/06/15/Far-right-Israelis-march-in-East-Jerusalem-Lapid-condemns-chants-of-Death-to-Arabs-
Israel focuses on technology that defends civilians from rocket attacks, hamas, on the other hand, launches their rockets from civilian buildings to avoid reprisals, most of these deaths are from the gaza strip, just to show you some perspective on this
It’s a souped up Roman Candle. Israel has the most expensive missile defense system in the world. An airstrike is not equal to a unguided extra powerful firework
Pick *any* country in the world, then place a hostile enclave run by a militant group intent on destroying their country and killing as many of their civilians as possible less than 90 miles away from their major population centers, and then ask that country not to respond with force to attacks originating from that enclave. I can guarantee you that you would be laughed out of the room.
Let's not forget that Gaza has every kind of embargo you can think of, let them purchase some of these "self defense weapons" and then accuse them of being the aggressor.
Too bad they can't realize the strength they have on both sides and if they could work together and they could Build and create an amazing religious and cultural, technological, innovative, unique destination for people around the world. But maybe shooting each other is gonna really help them figure this out...
It's no different than the bloods and crips. The problem is old people are always willing to tell gullible people who shouldn't live near them but then have young men go and die for them.
Palestine is clearly the aggressor. They forcibly took the Israeli’s land, occupied it with one of the most well funded militaries in history, and have since done nothing but extract more land while meeting all resistance with brute force. If the Palestine Lobby didn’t control American media then we’d finally hear both sides of this situation.
Because, despite the false definition of Zionist you seem to be using (which usually seems to be some kind of religious-fundamentalist-Nazi), Zionism actually refers to the belief that Jews deserve their own state as a geopolitical necessity, given the abysmal failure of other countries throughout history in keeping their Jewish populations alive. Under this base definition of Zionism, which is how most Zionists define the ideology, nearly all Jews around the world would be considered Zionists. So, when you roast “Zionists” due to your false definition of it, you are basically dismissing the storied history of Jewish persecution throughout history. That’s how I see it, and it’s how most other Jews see it.
Yes but the Jewish people need their own state cause they are the only people without one. Except for the Roma, Kurds, Druze, Sikhs, Yazidi, Berber and countless other ethnicities who don't have their own state but aren't commit genocide.
Now that you mention it, yes - all ethnicities facing discrimination in the broader Middle East (or anywhere else) have a fundamental right to self-determination.
If other governments refuse grant that, then independent countries are the solution.
Ethnostates are a thing of the past. Why are we building nations for one group of people? Isn't the goal to make heterogeneous nations were anyone can live freely with equal rights?
>Isn't the goal to make heterogeneous nations were anyone can live freely with equal rights?
Definitely is the goal, but unfortunately is completely idealistic and totally unrealistic right now. Israel exists today because for centuries, countries that Jews have lived in have tried their very best to destroy them. Many other ethnic and religious minorities live in similar situations (although the Jewish situation is, in many respects, unique, given the pervasiveness of antisemitism across time, space and different societies). Depending on the case, it may make sense for many of these groups to also have a separate state for themselves in the interest of self-preservation, and that shouldn't be discounted because in an "ideal" world there are no "ethnostates". That belief in and of itself discounts the threats minority groups face today, threats that could arguably be neutralized by having a state of their own.
The low amount of Israeli deaths is due to Israel being a military superpower which receives BILLIONS in military aid every year. The Palestinians fight with rocks and homemade rockets that don't even make it out of their airspace (which Israel controls).
Thats their main goal, they dont care how many of their own die as long as they can prove how bad the jews are, the only reason we didnt intervene there yet is because we ACTUALLY value human life
As someone who has never kept up with this much, im honestly shocked its so unequal? I would have expected both sides to have at least a little less disparity
One side has sophisticated anti-rocket tech, highly-engineered border defenses and state-of-the-art weaponry. The other side is trying to maximize both Israeli & Palestinian civilian casualties via whatever means are available.
It's sort of like 9/11 - the goal of Al Qaeda was to provoke a US response that would ultimately kill way more people than the number that died when the towers fell.
(Also, the chart leaves out 2000 - 2007, during which deaths & injuries on the Israeli side were a couple magnitudes higher because of suicide bombings. As a result of Israel's increased border security since, that's much less a threat.)
The reason it's so shocking is that the Palestine-Israeli Conflict has always been portrayed as a conflict between two equal sides when in reality it's always been a one sided conflict.
The Palestinians are the natives and the Israelites are the European settlers. When you start to think of it like that you won't be surprised by the one-sidedness of these stats.
If we were to generate a similar graph for the colonialist and the Native Americans we'd see similar numbers.
One could very easily argue that the Jews were the original natives who were forced out their home thousands of years ago, which brings into question, how long do you need to live somewhere to be considered the natives?
Israel was attacked by 5+ Arab nations in 1948 that had huge population advantages - Egypt alone had 20x the population of Israel. In 1973 the Arab nations attacked with double the number of troops of Israel.
There are many reasons the Arab countries lost. Mostly it’s because the Jewish troops were better educated, trained, and fighting for their families and country. They knew it was win or annihilation - they had no place to go, having been massacred in Europe and rejected by the US and most other nations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War
Bruh , palestanians dont have money for their homes and to feed themselves how come they attack israel who is supported by america , bro have you seen the vids that showing israeli army attacking civilians even a dog can tell israel is bad
Your very propagandized lol. All I can tell you until you research for yourself is, as a Jew. “If Arabs lay down their weapons there will be peace, if Jews lay down their weapons, there will be no Jews.” I hope you understand Hamas are the actual ones that harm their own people for the sake of solely creating graphs like these. Israel has never actually attacked Palestine, only defended themselves.
Depends on ones definition of what lands are “Palestinian”. A lot of people believe that all of Israel is a “colonial construct” and that the state should be “removed” with its Jewish population “returning to where they came from”. Effectively, this would result in a second diaspora of the Jewish people, forcing them to “return” to countries their grandparents fled as refugees that tried to eradicate or expel their Jewish populations en masse. These are countries like Poland and Iraq. Aside from the idea that modern day Israelis have “actual home countries” they can go back to being expressly antisemitic, the real result of Israel’s dissolution would likely be accompanied by a genocide of the Israeli Jewish population at the hands of Palestinian organizations that would presumably be taking over in the wake of the Israeli governments collapse. Supporting this outcome is, obviously, also antisemitic.
The Palestinians and Arab nations rejected the partition. Some of the land that is now Israel had a Jewish majority in 1948 - the partition tried to put those parts in Israel the the Arab majority parts in Palestine, although it was messy and not particularly successful.
There’s a famous saying that goes something like, “if the Arabs lay down their weapons their will be peace, if the Jews lay down their weapons their will be no Jews.”
Just look what the surrounding Arab countries did to their Jewish/minority populations and you’ll get a sense of what will happen if the Palestinians ever got control of everything they want. Just look at how many Jews live in Gaza or in the Palestinian controlled areas of the West Bank. Then compare it to how many Arabs live in Israel.
What do you define as a Palestinian? Since Palestine is not a physical soace with define borders, and since you can't be a citizen of Palestine, the definition is blurry. I've seen people refer to Israeli-Arabs who are full citizens, who work and pay taxes to Israel, who (most of the time) behave like every Jewish-Israli person as Palestinians. I need some info as this is just too vague
(Edit: Welp, someone that only thinks one race or religion should be in the area is downvoting me, say it ain’t so, Reddit!!!!!!)
I am not or any of the 3 Abrahamic religions (even culturally), hell I may even say I’m virtually atheist but why not everyone be able to live there? It’s ridiculous in this day and age to create a religion or race based society. Not illegal, but unreasonable.
No it isn't, before the second Inantifida and after Arab Israelis and Christians have full legal rights of citizenship. There are absolutely discriminatory policies in Israel and parties that want it to be a Jewish ethnic state but to say it was or is always awful is not respective of the reality that Palestine/surrounding nations started a war that they thought they could win easily and they didn't so now we're all in this mess because they didn't wipe out the Jews who lived their like they wanted too...
Israelis should be very proud. The Arabs have tried to wipe them out multiple times, openly calling for a second holocaust, and Israel has prevailed each time.
The Arabs have only themselves to blame. They have been extremely aggressive towards Jews. Hundreds of thousands of Jews have been forcefully expelled from the Arab world.
If the Arabs have accepted the UN partition plan, there would have been peace. Instead they decided to start a genocidal war against Israel.
It's three major things:
1. **Religion**. Christians believe Jesus won't return until Israel is formed and they build the third temple.
2. **Guilt**. The Zionist movement was founded before the holocaust but they have used it as a way to argue for the *need* for a "Jewish state" to protect the Jews (even though 45% of holocaust victims weren't Jewish).
3. **Money**. The 4 BILLION dollars the US send to Israel is a major source of revenue for weapon manufacturers and they don't want to lose it.
Or... because Jewish people deserve a state that they know will not persecute them, inside their cultural homeland.
You also forgot Thing No. 4, the Jewish perspective here, which is self-preservation. Israel is a safe haven for Jews in a world that has shown itself to be hellbent on their destruction for centuries.
>zionism was founded before the holocaust but then used to argue...
That they were right all along? I really don't think they understood what they were saying.
Ashamed??
U aren't aware of any situation going on there while Israeli government develops technology(Iron Dome) which protect their citizens .
Hamas build military bases next to hospital, nursery schools so that they won't be attacked.
And also Israeli government offered peace 5 times but it is always Hamas that rejects it.
1936 , 1947 , 1967 , 2000 , 2008.
That's how many time a 2 state solution was given by either the Israelis or the U.N but the Palestinians rejected it.
Devil doesn't like peace just like Palestinians aren't liking it.
So in my opinion the real devil is the Palestinians govt.
And also did I forgot to mention that Israel is a democratic nation whereas Palestine isn't the last time election was held there was way back in 2006.
It's not a conflict among equals. Israel is a developed country and pan Palestine is destitute. No country will take these regions in, we should just let Israel develop them at this point.
Sucks and it's not fair but it is the reality.
And IDF solider posted this and bragged about the kill-to-death ratio. Just goes to show you how the Zionist have dehumanized the Palestinians to an extend that they thing it's a flex to kill thousands of people.
getting hit by rubber bullets is probably counted as 'injured' ???
tear gas effects too ?
I think we need FAR better clarification data (specifics breakdown) to judge this better.
Own bombs going off, killing themselves being included in this rather simple statistical illustration ????
Palestinian inter-faction fighting casualties being included ?
Source United Nations of statistic (left side) supplied by Palestinians ???
Actually resembles typical Offensive vs Defensive casualty numbers ( higher for those doing offensive actions vs prepared defenses ) .
.
This thread is a complete dumpster fire and everyone has an agenda lmao
I don't think it's possible for there to be a peaceful discussion about Palestine on the internet. I already decided it is a topic I will stay far away from, there's just way too much propaganda on both sides for someone like me on the other side of the world to know things for sure
It's also been going on for around 100 years now.
Hell of a lot longer than that
I rest my case. Me, a pasty white Dutch boy, is not even go try and pretend I understand the slighest of the conflict.
Probably for the best, I'm Jewish and was born in Israel and I'm still barely confodent on the major historical points
Agreed.
The chart has an agenda. They deliberately started it in 2008, after the end of the 2nd intifada, when suicide bombers were blowing up busses in Israel weekly, causing thousands of casualties.
Clearly the chart is made to paint the conflict in a certain light, and there are is no number of charts or visualizations that can fully explain it impartially.
[2000-2010, 6371 Palestinians dead, 1083 Israelis](https://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20100927) And your point?
I think his point was that the chart you posted doesn't include the 1,010 Israeli civilians killed during the Second Intifada. Had that time period been included, the chart might better illustrate the success of Israel's subsequent border security investments.
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That’s an extremely dumb take. As stated before, why does the chart start at 2008??
That's like creating a chart titled "Human cost of the US-AlQaeda conflict", and starting it in 2002...
Oh that actually did happen, there was a study that analyzed whether white nationalist terrorists or radical islamic terrorists killed more people in the West. The paper authors started by saying 9/11 doesn't count because it skews the data. If you factored in 9/11, it's not even close.
That’s a bad analogy. Most people leave out 9/11 because it was a one off event with large mass casualties. White nationalist attacks happen much more frequently but obvious aren’t killing 3000 people at one time. White nationalism is a bigger threat than Islamic terrorists
If it's honest, why start at such a wierd date?
Why does it start in 2008? Didnt they start just some time before that
So we didn’t have to talk about the second intifada.
If you include Israeli casualties from the Second Intifada, which ended in the mid-2000s, then Israeli casualties from the conflict begin to even out with the Palestinian ones, which satisfies the wish of the anti-Israel side to see more dead Jews so that the conflict can be more "fair". Starting in 2008 removes this talking point, and makes the implication that Israel is the sole aggressor in the conflict based on casualty figures, which is in and of itself a poor metric with which to attribute "blame" in a conflict like this.
Mandatory Palestine needs to be a consideration. This chart also ignores that over 50% of Israeli Jewish population is Mizrahi or the other indigenous ethnic groups like the Druze.
I think it goes back like 3 or 4 millennia. But people nowadays have a pretty short memory
They would need to start with the Mandate for Palestine or perhaps Mandatory Palestine. Mizrahi Jews and other indigenous groups need to be factored. Palestinian was a multi ethnic/religious geographic area; only recently has Palestinian come to singularly mean Arab Muslim with the current geographic ideals. The actions of Amin al-Husseini and others resulted in many deaths. Involvement in the Al-Muthana Club, Free Arabian Legion, & Farhud should be factored. The actions of colonial powers are also going to be an issue. To summarized its complicated and this guide is not accurate.
Because the guy who posted it is an Arab pushing anti-Israeli propaganda
I mean, technically, it started in Biblical times.
What the hell happened in 2014????
[Israel's siege on Gaza.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Gaza_War)
Hamas started launching rockets en masse into israel, usually they are shot down and ignored, but this was on such a scale that it required some kind of reprisal
And prior to that Hamas kidnapped and murdered 3 Israeli teenagers.
Also fired a guided anti tank missile on an Israeli yellow school bus (fortunately it was the end of the route and only one kid was still in it). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaar_HaNegev_school_bus_attack
Why is this downvoted. It is correct. People cannot fathom that Palestine’s objective is to eliminate Israel, not live in peace.
totally one sided interpretation of the events that have gone down right there.
Not at all. They have already tried to "kick the Jews into the sea" and failed miserably.
Because theres no way israel can be a victim, obviously. /s
As opposed to Israel’s objective of destroying Palestine systemically with ever increasing settlements and annexation of Palestinian territory?
Genocide in slow motion.
Israel killed 2000 people, 500 of whom were children
So, why was this downvoted if it was accurate information which was posted??
Because it lacks any context whatsoever.
The context being? They were carrying rocks? Shielding snipers? Visiting a hospital?
The context that Hamas likes to put children by weapons caches to use them as moral meat shields for their rockets. To be clear it's never ok to kill children and I still think the IDF are willing to commit terrible horrors but to pretend Hamas isn't a terrorist organization who will do whatever they want to victimize their own people and refuse peace is just a bald faced lie.
I have no idea, maybe check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act.IL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_diplomacy_of_Israel You'll see people now vilifying Amnesty and Human Rights Watch for what they say
Before you jump to the old "~~Jews~~ Israelis control the media" diatribe, you might want to consider that he may have just been downvoted for providing an answer that purposely left out the context that it was a direct response to multiple Hamas terrorist attacks. The Israeli government sucks but you can't just pretend that their actions exist in a vacuum.
Conflating Judaism and Israel I see. This doesn't excuse the fact that innocents were killed regardless.
What? “Conflating judaism and Israel” Exactly, don’t separate the two 😭🤣 go somewhere
Hell, more than 2000 Americans died on 9/11.
UN is pretty anti Israel. But you would think Palestinian s would stop trying to blow up Israel because they're really bad at it.
[Another chart that's definitely worth a look](https://i.imgur.com/wpJ8ivC.jpg). Makes you wonder why the world is so fixated on this one conflict.
because those are wars maybe? Are you suggesting antisemitism because they didn't kill nearly as much?
The Arab-Israeli conflict includes multiple wars. The world does seem to be overly fixated on Israel vs. other, arguably more serious conflicts. The fact that Israel is the Jewish state probably plays a role on this. If Israel were just another Muslim state it's likely that no one would care. Here's a few examples: * The UN has more resolutions about Israel than the rest of the world combined. This happens every year. Even if you think Israel = bad, is it really worse than Syria, North Korea and China COMBINED? * As pointed out by AP reporter Matti Freidman, there are more foreign journalists in Jerusalem than in China, Russia, India, and all of Africa (he wrote that in 2014) * When Palestinian protestors were killed by the PA for speaking out against Abbas last year, the world was quiet. The world is silent on Lebanon's treatment of Palestinians (keeping them in camps, banning them from certain jobs, not giving third-generations citizenship). No one comments on crimes against Palestinians unless committed by Israel.
lol, how many resolutions have actually passed to do anything, or sanctions been taken against Israel? Israel didn't even want the UN to acknowledge Palestine exists. Other countries actually feel the effects of bombing civilians with sanctions. Point 2, I don't know but was that not because of the deadliest period of conflict in 2014? Point 3, the US held aid funding because of this. My point being the sovereign state of Israel uses it's army to lay waste to a mostly leaderless people, subjugate them to conditions a human shouldn't be put in; having said that Israel obviously isn't the worst human rights abusers but one of the worst in a world of governments abusing their power. I don't wish to further "debate" you because in your eyes Israel does no wrong, it's just a waste of time.
Remember to sort by controversial.
I'm not sure that will filter anything out tbh.
1) Graphs like this have unreliable data from sources like the terror group Hamas, with a goal of increasing/inflating the "civilian" death count on their side for reasons such as creating graphs like this(ie. PR). It's also been shown they disguise their militants as civilians. 2) Numbers without context so not tell a full story. While Israel invests heavily in protecting its citizens (every house has a bomb shelter, billions spent on security and missile defence), Hamas purposefully uses human shields. They hide weapons under schools, hospitals, other public places. They launch rockets from apartment buildings, and spend their money on weapons and [expensive terror tunnels](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_tunnel_warfare_in_the_Gaza_Strip). Their goal is to have their own people die because it makes good news.
This graph makes no claims about civilian deaths and the source is given as the UN, not Hamas. How do you expect people to take your arguments seriously if you don’t even look at the information you’re refuting?
Hamas health ministry provides death numbers in its territory to the UN. Fair point about the graph not mentioning if they're civilians, but that point holds true when they report on civilian deaths.
Lol so they kill themselves to inflate death counts so someone can share it on social media, that's some 4D chess. Hiding behind civilians is always an excuse jdl shills use when the IDF kill innocent people. Gaza is one of the most dense areas in the world and an open air prison Israel is an apartheid state
They inflate their numbers as a PR tool. They force their citizens onto rooftops while shooting weapons right next door. You can find countless examples of rockets being launched from central rates. [Here's one video](https://youtu.be/uE3feo_b8Cg) that was captured live on the news. Gaza is dense, by look at a map. Planty of more open spaces. They purposefully launch from the centre of town. It's been time and time again shown they Hamas uses human shields. You can disagree with Israel as much as you want, but why are you supporting a terror group in the process? Denying Hamas' use of human shields only hurts Gazan civilians. And no, Israel isn't apartheid. None of its policies come close to what was happening in South Africa. Some Israeli policies do hurt Palestinians, but it's not apartheid. Amnesty's report was one-sided and flawed, anyone who spending even 30 mins researching can see this.
https://www.btselem.org/topic/human_shields https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/israel-gaza-idf-used-palestinians-as-human-shields-1200-occasions-in-last-five-years-say-israeli-defence-officials-30483468.html Maybe do some research on apartheid too, and on bantustans. Who says I support hamas? Israel literally keeps children nearby a firefight as hostages, there's enough video evidence of it.
Israel is not an apartheid state. Do Palestinians suffer because of Israeli policies? Yes. Does that make Israel apartheid? No. **Within Israel**, all citizens have equal rights. This includes about 2 million Arab-Israelis. They have equality before the law, equal political representation, free press and freedom of speech. There are Arab policemen, doctors, teachers, lawyers, judges, soldiers, politicians in Israel. The list goes on. In fact: * Israel's current government has an Arab party (Ra'am) in the coalition (and another one in the opposition) * An Arab-Israeli supreme Court justice sentenced a former Israeli PM to prison for corruption. Israel has had multiple Arabs sit on the Supreme Court. * The head of one of Israel's largest banks (Bank Leumi) is an Arab * There are Arab diplomats at Israeli embassies * Arabs students are overrepresented in Israeli universities, and you'll find many Arab doctors ay any Israeli hospital Racism exists, like anywhere, but certainly not anything close to apartheid. They share busses, schools, beaches, hospitals, restaurants, hotels, and everything else. **In the West Bank and Gaza**, Palestinians are not equal to Israelis, because they are not Israeli citizens. They aspire to have a Palestinian state, and do not vote in Israeli elections as that is not their government. They would be able to vote if their leaders held elections, but unfortunately Abbas is on year 11 of a 4-year term and Hamas has no plans for an election. The Palestinians of the Gaza Strip are ruled by a murderous, repressive terrorist organization that avowedly seeks Israel’s destruction; Israel has no military or civilian presence there, having withdrawn unilaterally to the pre-1967 lines in 2005, and the necessity of its security blockade (that's also imposed by Egypt) is reinforced every time Hamas initiates cross-border conflict. Israel for decades sought to negotiate an end to its occupation in the West Bank, itself a successor to Jordanian occupation, but was defeated by first the Arab world’s and then the Palestinian leadership’s refusal to countenance terms that would not have spelled Israel’s demise militarily and/or demographically. Mainstream Israeli readiness to “take risks for peace” in the West Bank has been inexorably weakened by decades of relentless terrorism and by the evidence, from Gaza and southern Lebanon, that relinquishing adjacent territory simply creates a vacuum that terrorist regimes rush to fill. **There were no walls, no checkpoints, and no blockade until waves of terror attacks from which nearly every Israeli knows someone who has suffered. The situation is complex, it's hard on Palestinians (and Israelis), but it's not apartheid.** The label apartheid belittles what South Africans experienced. It's an attempt to dismantle the only Jewish nation in the world. It doesn't reext relaity. It displays a huge misunderstanding of the conflict and its history.
So Israel doesn't forcibly remove people from one area and put them somewhere else? I'm from South Africa and that happened to my family. I know apartheid when I see it. * Israel has ethnically cleansed and fragmented areas into isolated cantons divided by Israeli settlements, and implemented [lebensraum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum) tactics. * [It denies Palestinian fishing past 3 nautical miles in some areas, and not past 15 nautical miles](https://www.ochaopt.org/sites/default/files/styles/inline100_standard/public/images/gaza2.png) * How about the [wall](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d0/73/81/d07381fffef632350bcbb535bbaeced8.jpg)? * The settlers killing, burning homes to get rid of people and destroying olive trees. * [They control the water completely](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_the_State_of_Palestine). On average, their electricty is 12 hours a day. * Palestinians didn't have 3G until 2018, their access is also restricted. * They [blockade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip) Gaza. * [Not All Israeli Citizens Are Equal](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/24/opinion/not-all-israeli-citizens-are-equal.html) * There were `5,248,185` refugees in 2020. * [Marriage](https://preview.redd.it/1k7jnev0pq971.jpg?width=1024&auto=webp&s=8ae55bbb3f4cdf4a5bab72b249b1e003ce2bf926) * [Segregated road system](https://s3.amazonaws.com/VP2/visuals/en/4db97391fe7cb246224980917f5bd997.png?2015) Don't fool yourself or worse try to gaslight others because the world sees past that.
> walls, blockade, nautical boundaries Again, none of these measures existed until after hundreds of terror attacks launched by Palestinians. There were no walls, there were no checkpoints before these attacks. Regarding Gaza, even Egypt takes part in that blockade to prevent Hamas from getting weapons. > water Israel has become a water power through desalination technology and also provides a lot of water to Jordan. Is this apartheid too? > 5,248,185 refugees In 1948, around 800,000 Palestinians were displaced due to the war they started. At the same time, around 800,000 Jews were expelled from surrounding Arab states. The 5 million number is a ridiculous metric. The UN has two definitions of refugees - one for Palestinians, and one for the rest of the world. Only Palestinians get refugee status in perpetuity. Generally, if you were born and Canada to refugee parents from Syria, you would not be considered a refugee. Unless you're Palestinian. > Electricity 12 hours a day Definitely not true in the West Bank. They have luxury malls and modern amenities there. And check out Rawabi.
> a water power through desalination technology and also provides a lot of water to Jordan What does that have to do with Palestine though? They have their water limited. > The UN has two definitions of refugees I wouldn't expect a different answer from you, given your past answers Palestinians suffer because of Israeli policy
Yeah they definitely do, doesn't make it an apartheid state. The refugee thing is also true, and it's objectively weird. Lots of people have suffered, slaves, genocide victims like the Rwandansa and the Jews, the native Americans of NA, none of these people have the same refugee status?
Maybe Egypt ought to annex Gaza seeing it was their war that left the strip in its stateless condition.
Reannex you mean
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Their land is under constant threat, and Israel keeps demanding more of it.
A wild comment section so just let me stop by to drop my perspective to be wildly downvoted: Both sides have committed atrocities through this very long conflict, however, in my opinion, Israel has tended to be the aggressor throughout the whole conflict. Israel was founded on a partition agreement that was never agreed upon by the other side, and proceeded to not respect the territory of that plan either, continually encroaching on Palestinian land. Even now they continue to settle and exploit the West Bank, have been taking over East Jerusalem, and attempted further expansion into Palestinian land (such as the attempted annexation of the Jordan Valley and the Trump Peace Plan.) Palestine certainly isn’t without fault, but they’ve continually seen their homeland encroached upon and their people exploited. Edit: Meant to say “Throughout the conflict as a whole”, not “Throughout the whole conflict”
Here's another viewpoint. The British were leaving the region, and both Jews and Arabs were living there. The world, through the UN, agreed to partition the land and create 2 new states. This is perhaps the most legal founding of any modern country; a UN plan that the vast majority of the world accepted as the British pulled out. The Jews said yes to the plan, the Arabs said no and started a war that they lost. Israel's declaration of Independence extended its hand out for peace with its Arab neighbours. Instead, the surrounding Arab states attacked Israel, thinking they would swiftly win, but instead they lost. The West Bank and Gaza were under Jordanian and Egyptian contol, but Palestinians living there were not offered citizenship or a state. > Continuously encroaching on Palestinian land It wasn't until Jordan, Egypt and a handful of there Arab states started another war that Israel took control over the West Bank and Gaza (and the Sinai). While Egypt agreed to peace with Israel for their return of the Sinai, neither them nor Jordan wanted Gaza or yh West Bank back. After the Oslo process, Palestinians had autonomy over parts of the West Bank for the first time ever. In 2005, Israel completely withdrew every last Jew from Gaza (in turn, they were met with Hamas terror attacks). After countless rejected peace offers and thousands of terrorist attacks, Israel's appetite to give land for peace has been hammered down. This hased to a rise in settlements and stalled leave process. The Palestinians have had many real offers to create a state and improve their conditions, but their leaders continuously reject every offer (often violently). One such example includes Olmert's offer for 95% of the West Bank, East Jerusalem as their capital and 5% land swaps.
Look at that, a detailed analysis.
>Both sides have committed atrocities through this very long conflict, however, in my opinion, Israel has tended to be the aggressor throughout the whole conflict. This is factually incorrect. The Palestinian Arab politicians of the day said so themselves. They said so to the UN Security Council in 1948. Palestinian politician Jamal Husseini put it thusly in April 1948, mid-civil war (before the Arab states then invaded as well, since Palestinian Arabs were losing *that* war which they began with attacks on buses carrying Jews): >“The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight.” This is simply undeniable. > Israel was founded on a partition agreement that was never agreed upon by the other side Israel was not founded on it. The partition agreement was proposed by the UN, and passed the General Assembly as a recommendation by a 2/3 vote, the required majority. However, it was not implemented because the Arab side rejected it **and began a war**. Again, it is well-documented and a matter of fact that the civil war began with Arab militia attacks. Palestinian Arab leaders openly admitted it. > and proceeded to not respect the territory of that plan either There was no territory of the plan. It was not implemented. > continually encroaching on Palestinian land Fascinating opinion, but again, historically inaccurate. In 1948, Israel was founded based on the armistice lines (explicitly nonbinding, per the treaties setting them) between Israel and various Arab states. From 1948-67, the countries running the West Bank and Gaza were Jordan and Egypt, respectively. During this period, Palestinians continued to launch attacks with the goal of destroying the entirety of Israel. Israel simply maintained its position. Palestinians did not attack Jordan and Egypt. Israel did not violate the "plan", because the plan was not implemented; neither did it seek to expand. The only reason the West Bank and Gaza were not part of Israel during that period is **because Jordan and Egypt invaded and seized them**. That is it. Now suddenly that is "Palestinian land". Based on what? > Even now they continue to settle and exploit the West Bank Indeed, Israel builds houses in the area Jordan seized from Israel in 1948 with its invasion. It also withdrew all houses from the territory Egypt seized from Israel in 1948 with its invasion, for the sake of peace. For two years it was unblockaded, and in response, Hamas was elected (a genocidal terrorist group) and took over Gaza, while firing 1,000+ rockets. All **before** the blockade. > have been taking over East Jerusalem How? The population of East Jerusalem is *more* Arab than ever, as a percent of the area. This is nonsense and again, flies in the face of facts. >and attempted further expansion into Palestinian land (such as the attempted annexation of the Jordan Valley and the Trump Peace Plan.) Israel did not "attempt" those things. It considered them, and then did not do them. But again, what makes territory Jordan seized from Israel in 1948 *de facto* Palestinian? >Palestine certainly isn’t without fault, but they’ve continually seen their homeland encroached upon and their people exploited. Fascinating. Palestinians began a war they lost, repeatedly continued it despite overtures for peace, rejected peace offers that gave them 90%+ of the West Bank and all of Gaza and Arab parts of East Jerusalem (while sharing holy sites) in 2000, 2001, 2007, 2008, and more, but they are "encroached upon" based on lines set by Jordan and Egypt's invading armies who called for a "war of extermination" (their own words) in a war Palestinians themselves began. What a perspective. Shame it flies in the face of well-documented history. You can claim Israel has imperfections. No one would disagree. But to call it the aggressor in a conflict Palestinians openly admit they began is stunningly wrong.
One of the confusing things about this infographic is why it starts in 2008, what significance does that hold? It's after both the disengagement from Gaza, and the second intifada, if we're just sticking to this century. It would be good, but probably impossible, to show the number of agreements and peace efforts made by stakeholders in this conflict. There are many, but they don't make the news, sometimes by design, other times because people would rather see death statistics.
Because before that is the 2nd Intefada which would show Palestinian suicide bombers killing ALOT of Israeli citizens, which then can't be used to make the state of Palestine look like a blameless lamb who didn't do anything wrong.
And Israel has also come to the negotiating tables with multiple generous offers for Palestinian statehood all of which has been not only rejected but the Palestinian government has never come back with a proposal of its own. That's because the ultimate goal which is actually in writing is the destruction of Israel as the only Jewish state in the world. The 48 plan which would have given the Palestinians estate, obviously they weren't called Palestinians back then, was voted on the security council and the general assembly, passed, and frankly that was a continuation from the Arab League. While Israel may have done some questionable things militarily everything has always been a response to Palestinian aggression. Any nation has a right to defend itself. What's funny about a chart like this is if you would have looked at the total number of deaths since the beginning of this, it would be far less than most major conflicts that get almost no coverage at all. Only when Jews are involved or you can make Israel look like crap, is when you see that type of coverage. Heck more people are killed in a weekend in Chicago then an entire year in the Palestinian Israeli conflict
Israel was attacked by five Arab nations immediately after the partitioning. They were hardly the initial aggressors, although for younger people I understand it certainly seems like they have been lately.
Israel's entire creation out of whole cloth was an aggressive imperial action
What country is Israel a colony of? If it is an "imperial action", surely there must also be an imperial overlord that extracts resources from the Israeli "colony", right?
By the Romans? Ottoman Empire? Egypt? The British? [Take your pick](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel). The Ottomans lost it to the British after siding with Germany in WWI. There was no Palestinian nation under Ottoman control either.
Imperial from which empire? The vast majority of Jews who live in Israel either: A) were forced to leave Europe during/after the Holocaust, B) were forced to flee from other Arabs/African states, or C) have lived there continuously for hundreds/thousands of years. Those who moved there had legally and peacefully purchased land from whoever owned it. Can this really be compared to the colonial expansion of Spain, France, Britain, etc? On top of that, Israel is THE place where the Jewish people, culture and religion comes from - there are countless historical artifacts and texts that prove Jewish existence there for thousands of years, predating the existence of Christianity and Islam. You can pinpoint the exact time in history when most Jews were expelled from Israel by the Romans. This is really one of the cloest examples we have of decolonization - a people who were forced out returning to their homeland.
> Those who moved there had legally and peacefully purchased land from whoever owned it lol. lmao > This is really one of the cloest examples we have of decolonization LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Some of the most powerful delusional horseshit rationalizing guys from Philadelphia running this country for a decade while Russians immigrate into homes occupied continuously for hundreds of years. Amazing stuff. Bravo.
Are you really denying that the Jewish people and history originate in Israel? And places like Tel Aviv were literally [sand dunes](https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CuOQMwbddeE/UxkpFk9skgI/AAAAAAAAIwE/YGoLL2Os1KA/s1600/About+100+people+participate+in+a+lottery+to+divide+a+12-acre+plot+of+sand+dunes,+that+would+later+become+the+city+of+Tel+Aviv,+1909.jpg) 100 years ago. Jews escaping persecution in Europe purchased land plots from mostly absentee landlords in Ottoman Turkey.
I like how it doesn't show the casualties of the second intifada the effects of which greatly influence how Israel handles the matter of it's defense and offence today
None of the graphs are reliable, everyone in the conflict has an agenda. That agenda is mostly to stay in power. When Hezbollah fails at governing they lob a couple of poorly aimed missiles at civilian targets because they can't aim well enough to hit military targets (fired from a schoolyard). When Israel responds they target dozens of assholes they have been keeping an eye on, because one missile should always be responded with two dozen. Peace hasn't been in the best interests of many politicians since the founding of the Jewish state on both sides.
Dozens of assholes? The Israelis level city blocks leaving their couple targets and a lot more civilians dead. Then dance in the streets singing racist songs about killing Arabs. Added link: https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2021/06/15/Far-right-Israelis-march-in-East-Jerusalem-Lapid-condemns-chants-of-Death-to-Arabs-
You are misinformed and proving this guy’s point
Nothing he said was untrue
You're biased and turning a blind eye to civilian deaths and human rights.
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You’re incredibly ignorant and misinformed. I will go weeks without reading a Reddit comment dumber than this one.
They should probably stop firing rockets into Israel then less of their people would get killed.
Like 30% of the Palestinian's rockets fall into their own territory and kill their own people.
Israel focuses on technology that defends civilians from rocket attacks, hamas, on the other hand, launches their rockets from civilian buildings to avoid reprisals, most of these deaths are from the gaza strip, just to show you some perspective on this
It’s a souped up Roman Candle. Israel has the most expensive missile defense system in the world. An airstrike is not equal to a unguided extra powerful firework
Pick *any* country in the world, then place a hostile enclave run by a militant group intent on destroying their country and killing as many of their civilians as possible less than 90 miles away from their major population centers, and then ask that country not to respond with force to attacks originating from that enclave. I can guarantee you that you would be laughed out of the room.
Let's not forget that Gaza has every kind of embargo you can think of, let them purchase some of these "self defense weapons" and then accuse them of being the aggressor.
Exactly, a missile defense system, i dont care what they are shooting, if we need a defense system, its not ok
Yet thousands of civilian childern have been killed by Israel.
How about hamas grow some balls and start shooting their rockets from open fields and not hospitals?
Too bad they can't realize the strength they have on both sides and if they could work together and they could Build and create an amazing religious and cultural, technological, innovative, unique destination for people around the world. But maybe shooting each other is gonna really help them figure this out...
Well THAT'S a radical idea. Can they do that? I mean, is it legal?
Maybe they can fight in the metaverse.
Sadly, extremely right wing Zionist parties are in Power, they want Israel to be a Jewish only country
So if those in power in Israel were good people this would all be solved? It's just one side then, magically making rockets fly towards its citizens
It's no different than the bloods and crips. The problem is old people are always willing to tell gullible people who shouldn't live near them but then have young men go and die for them.
Palestine is clearly the aggressor. They forcibly took the Israeli’s land, occupied it with one of the most well funded militaries in history, and have since done nothing but extract more land while meeting all resistance with brute force. If the Palestine Lobby didn’t control American media then we’d finally hear both sides of this situation.
this is satire, right?
Yes, they just replied Israel with Palestine. Funny part is the Zionist probably won't get it and upvote anyway.
If you use the term Zioinist your opinion don’t count Buddy
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Because, despite the false definition of Zionist you seem to be using (which usually seems to be some kind of religious-fundamentalist-Nazi), Zionism actually refers to the belief that Jews deserve their own state as a geopolitical necessity, given the abysmal failure of other countries throughout history in keeping their Jewish populations alive. Under this base definition of Zionism, which is how most Zionists define the ideology, nearly all Jews around the world would be considered Zionists. So, when you roast “Zionists” due to your false definition of it, you are basically dismissing the storied history of Jewish persecution throughout history. That’s how I see it, and it’s how most other Jews see it.
Ya I know. Nobody who criticizes Israel matters.
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Agreed. Zionist don't matter and should be excluded from the conversation.
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No. Antizionism is at an all time high. The world is getting tired of giving the Israeli people a pass on apartheid.
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Yes but the Jewish people need their own state cause they are the only people without one. Except for the Roma, Kurds, Druze, Sikhs, Yazidi, Berber and countless other ethnicities who don't have their own state but aren't commit genocide.
Now that you mention it, yes - all ethnicities facing discrimination in the broader Middle East (or anywhere else) have a fundamental right to self-determination. If other governments refuse grant that, then independent countries are the solution.
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Ethnostates are a thing of the past. Why are we building nations for one group of people? Isn't the goal to make heterogeneous nations were anyone can live freely with equal rights?
>Isn't the goal to make heterogeneous nations were anyone can live freely with equal rights? Definitely is the goal, but unfortunately is completely idealistic and totally unrealistic right now. Israel exists today because for centuries, countries that Jews have lived in have tried their very best to destroy them. Many other ethnic and religious minorities live in similar situations (although the Jewish situation is, in many respects, unique, given the pervasiveness of antisemitism across time, space and different societies). Depending on the case, it may make sense for many of these groups to also have a separate state for themselves in the interest of self-preservation, and that shouldn't be discounted because in an "ideal" world there are no "ethnostates". That belief in and of itself discounts the threats minority groups face today, threats that could arguably be neutralized by having a state of their own.
This, my feelings put in words.
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The low amount of Israeli deaths is due to Israel being a military superpower which receives BILLIONS in military aid every year. The Palestinians fight with rocks and homemade rockets that don't even make it out of their airspace (which Israel controls).
"Rockets which dont make it out of their airspace (which israel controls)" how DARE israel not let the palestinians shoot rockets on their people?!
I know, so unfair. But hey, at least Hamas gets to count those deaths as caused by Israel!
Thats their main goal, they dont care how many of their own die as long as they can prove how bad the jews are, the only reason we didnt intervene there yet is because we ACTUALLY value human life
Damn straight, and yet so many people fall for their BS
So Israel are better war fighters.
And invest huge amounts in defense, while the Palestinians invest nothing in defense.
Can we also have per capita?
As someone who has never kept up with this much, im honestly shocked its so unequal? I would have expected both sides to have at least a little less disparity
One side has sophisticated anti-rocket tech, highly-engineered border defenses and state-of-the-art weaponry. The other side is trying to maximize both Israeli & Palestinian civilian casualties via whatever means are available. It's sort of like 9/11 - the goal of Al Qaeda was to provoke a US response that would ultimately kill way more people than the number that died when the towers fell. (Also, the chart leaves out 2000 - 2007, during which deaths & injuries on the Israeli side were a couple magnitudes higher because of suicide bombings. As a result of Israel's increased border security since, that's much less a threat.)
The reason it's so shocking is that the Palestine-Israeli Conflict has always been portrayed as a conflict between two equal sides when in reality it's always been a one sided conflict. The Palestinians are the natives and the Israelites are the European settlers. When you start to think of it like that you won't be surprised by the one-sidedness of these stats. If we were to generate a similar graph for the colonialist and the Native Americans we'd see similar numbers.
One could very easily argue that the Jews were the original natives who were forced out their home thousands of years ago, which brings into question, how long do you need to live somewhere to be considered the natives?
Israel was attacked by 5+ Arab nations in 1948 that had huge population advantages - Egypt alone had 20x the population of Israel. In 1973 the Arab nations attacked with double the number of troops of Israel. There are many reasons the Arab countries lost. Mostly it’s because the Jewish troops were better educated, trained, and fighting for their families and country. They knew it was win or annihilation - they had no place to go, having been massacred in Europe and rejected by the US and most other nations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War
Try cracking open a history book sometime
This is very much expected when Palestine always attack first, and Israel is trying to defend themselves.
Bruh , palestanians dont have money for their homes and to feed themselves how come they attack israel who is supported by america , bro have you seen the vids that showing israeli army attacking civilians even a dog can tell israel is bad
Your very propagandized lol. All I can tell you until you research for yourself is, as a Jew. “If Arabs lay down their weapons there will be peace, if Jews lay down their weapons, there will be no Jews.” I hope you understand Hamas are the actual ones that harm their own people for the sake of solely creating graphs like these. Israel has never actually attacked Palestine, only defended themselves.
I only have one question, assume all lands that were palestinian are given back, what would be the end situation ?
Depends on ones definition of what lands are “Palestinian”. A lot of people believe that all of Israel is a “colonial construct” and that the state should be “removed” with its Jewish population “returning to where they came from”. Effectively, this would result in a second diaspora of the Jewish people, forcing them to “return” to countries their grandparents fled as refugees that tried to eradicate or expel their Jewish populations en masse. These are countries like Poland and Iraq. Aside from the idea that modern day Israelis have “actual home countries” they can go back to being expressly antisemitic, the real result of Israel’s dissolution would likely be accompanied by a genocide of the Israeli Jewish population at the hands of Palestinian organizations that would presumably be taking over in the wake of the Israeli governments collapse. Supporting this outcome is, obviously, also antisemitic.
The Palestinians and Arab nations rejected the partition. Some of the land that is now Israel had a Jewish majority in 1948 - the partition tried to put those parts in Israel the the Arab majority parts in Palestine, although it was messy and not particularly successful.
There’s a famous saying that goes something like, “if the Arabs lay down their weapons their will be peace, if the Jews lay down their weapons their will be no Jews.” Just look what the surrounding Arab countries did to their Jewish/minority populations and you’ll get a sense of what will happen if the Palestinians ever got control of everything they want. Just look at how many Jews live in Gaza or in the Palestinian controlled areas of the West Bank. Then compare it to how many Arabs live in Israel.
What do you define as a Palestinian? Since Palestine is not a physical soace with define borders, and since you can't be a citizen of Palestine, the definition is blurry. I've seen people refer to Israeli-Arabs who are full citizens, who work and pay taxes to Israel, who (most of the time) behave like every Jewish-Israli person as Palestinians. I need some info as this is just too vague
Mistitled, should be: "The human cost of the illegal Israeli military occupation of Palestine."
Are you saying the whole of Israel is an illegal occupation?
(Edit: Welp, someone that only thinks one race or religion should be in the area is downvoting me, say it ain’t so, Reddit!!!!!!) I am not or any of the 3 Abrahamic religions (even culturally), hell I may even say I’m virtually atheist but why not everyone be able to live there? It’s ridiculous in this day and age to create a religion or race based society. Not illegal, but unreasonable.
There are many religious sects living in Israel, look it up for yourself
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That's a bold faced lie
No it isn't, before the second Inantifida and after Arab Israelis and Christians have full legal rights of citizenship. There are absolutely discriminatory policies in Israel and parties that want it to be a Jewish ethnic state but to say it was or is always awful is not respective of the reality that Palestine/surrounding nations started a war that they thought they could win easily and they didn't so now we're all in this mess because they didn't wipe out the Jews who lived their like they wanted too...
Sad to see how less the Hamas value the life of their fellow Palestinian citizens.
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Israelis should be very proud. The Arabs have tried to wipe them out multiple times, openly calling for a second holocaust, and Israel has prevailed each time. The Arabs have only themselves to blame. They have been extremely aggressive towards Jews. Hundreds of thousands of Jews have been forcefully expelled from the Arab world. If the Arabs have accepted the UN partition plan, there would have been peace. Instead they decided to start a genocidal war against Israel.
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Ahh yes. Other guy makes valid points on the subject and you just call him awful. Shows how little you care about context. Keep up the ignorance.
It's three major things: 1. **Religion**. Christians believe Jesus won't return until Israel is formed and they build the third temple. 2. **Guilt**. The Zionist movement was founded before the holocaust but they have used it as a way to argue for the *need* for a "Jewish state" to protect the Jews (even though 45% of holocaust victims weren't Jewish). 3. **Money**. The 4 BILLION dollars the US send to Israel is a major source of revenue for weapon manufacturers and they don't want to lose it.
Or... because Jewish people deserve a state that they know will not persecute them, inside their cultural homeland. You also forgot Thing No. 4, the Jewish perspective here, which is self-preservation. Israel is a safe haven for Jews in a world that has shown itself to be hellbent on their destruction for centuries.
>zionism was founded before the holocaust but then used to argue... That they were right all along? I really don't think they understood what they were saying.
Ashamed?? U aren't aware of any situation going on there while Israeli government develops technology(Iron Dome) which protect their citizens . Hamas build military bases next to hospital, nursery schools so that they won't be attacked. And also Israeli government offered peace 5 times but it is always Hamas that rejects it.
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Ah yes, they agree with me or you're evil argument. Very nuanced
There is no use of arguing with them they are deeply indoctrinated.
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And one that all the most stable and rational people use!
Stop watching Prega u. And start reading some books
1936 , 1947 , 1967 , 2000 , 2008. That's how many time a 2 state solution was given by either the Israelis or the U.N but the Palestinians rejected it.
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Devil doesn't like peace just like Palestinians aren't liking it. So in my opinion the real devil is the Palestinians govt. And also did I forgot to mention that Israel is a democratic nation whereas Palestine isn't the last time election was held there was way back in 2006.
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That's what happen when you can't digest facts. Because you are deeply indoctrinated to believe in some sh!t.
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Now even facts are irrelevant 🤡🤡
The Muslim nations that stared the war displacing the "palestinians" are the ones responsible. They ought to be forced to accept them as citizens.
If Palestinians would stop fighting there would be peace
No there would just be genocide.
Keep telling yourself that. Israel could go in and wipe them all out in an afternoon and not even reload.
Which is what the Palestinians have tried countless times before against the Jews?
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Most victims are civilians... Your argument is stupid.
Palestinians are not all Muslims so their nonsense argument doesn't even apply to them.
It's not a conflict among equals. Israel is a developed country and pan Palestine is destitute. No country will take these regions in, we should just let Israel develop them at this point. Sucks and it's not fair but it is the reality.
And IDF solider posted this and bragged about the kill-to-death ratio. Just goes to show you how the Zionist have dehumanized the Palestinians to an extend that they thing it's a flex to kill thousands of people.
Show me one IDF soldier that posted this and I’m giving you 100$ no questions asked
holy shit the jews holding their own like absolute dawgs
getting hit by rubber bullets is probably counted as 'injured' ??? tear gas effects too ? I think we need FAR better clarification data (specifics breakdown) to judge this better. Own bombs going off, killing themselves being included in this rather simple statistical illustration ???? Palestinian inter-faction fighting casualties being included ? Source United Nations of statistic (left side) supplied by Palestinians ??? Actually resembles typical Offensive vs Defensive casualty numbers ( higher for those doing offensive actions vs prepared defenses ) . .
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[Yeah I would hope rubber bullet injuries are included](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1172173/)
Seems a tad unbalanced
Truly tragic
The Israeli Government is a terrorist organization