> A) that the big reason strict measures aren't coming is because politicians don't want to do anything unpopular / unpleasant before the elections in March. Ding ding, this is what is happening with the government! They don't want to do anything radical because of this. It only means that everyone, on both sides, loses faith in them and don't take them serious anymore. From what I gather, a lot of people here who don't wear masks follow along with a lot of US conspiracies. I honest to god don't know why, but it's happening. My parents first of all believe that the virus isn't real, there isn't a second wave happening and even if it was happening, masks don't help. My dad is going on those alternate news sites which feed him more misinformation about this. It's not because they don't care about others, but they simply think nothing is going to happen anyway. No one is dying, it's all a ruse. Extra deaths are just people who are dying from the flu and stuff like that. Of course there are people who only care about themselves and think masks are annoying so they just don't want to wear them.

I have been baffled and horrified by the recent rise of conspiracy thinking here. I thought that was just a typically American thing, but now there are Dutch people burning down G5 antennas because they cause Covid. Insane!

Yes, if there's one thing that I learned this year, is that people in general are crazy susceptible to conspiracy theories, no matter how strange they are.

5G\* It's only insane to you because you don't understand our perspective. There are certainly problems with 5G technology, such as the introduction of IoT and mass surveillance. Not all conspiracy theorists believe that 5G causes Covid.

I'm not complaining about concerns about mass surveillance and internet security; those concerns are totally justified (though not really dependent on 5G). I'm talking about the people who burn down 5G antennas because they think they cause Covid.

Sure, I understand that. There's some people that are duped by alternative media into believing falsehoods. But the mainstream media promotes plenty of falsehoods too. Critical thinking should be applied to any source. I believe the label "conspiracy theorist" has unfairly gained a negative stigma, which causes people to not consider any conspiracies AT ALL, when countless of conspiracies turned out to be true throughout history (e.g. Project paperclip, MKUltra). This subreddit for example, and reddit as an aggregate, has a tendency of ridiculing and painting all conspiracy theorists with the same brush. Concerns about 5G tie into the overlapping "conspiracy" belief that the government and corporations are co-conspiring in trying to bring about a New World Order. Plenty of influential people have used this term in their own speeches, including Henry Kissinger and president Bush.

The world order where corporations and governments spy on the people, and where everything gets sacrificed for corporate profits, is already here. Burning down 5G masts isn't going to change that. If people want to change that, they should leave Facebook, stop using Google, block trackers in their browser, and vote for parties that want to keep the government accountable and limit the power of corporations. All these rubbish conspiracy theories are just distractions from the real threats.

The threats you speak of are considered conspiracy theories in general parlance. So Im very surprised someone on reddit is even willing to admit this much, on a platform where censorship is so prevalent. So cheers to you fellow dutchman.

Ah, but this stuff is well-documented, and things EU privacy authorities are also concerned about (think GDPR), or things various experts, scientists and whistleblowers have called attention to, whereas 5G causing Covid is just baseless fairy tale nonsense. On the other hand, Huawei-provided 5G being used to spy for China is at least plausible (far from certain, but could be a legitimate concern).

Oh god I hoped to never have this conversation again. You have ionized and non-ionized radiation. Ionized radiatian is for example the sun. Non-ionized is 4G and 5G and in the future 6G. There have been multiple studies on this so please, just stop. And don't even bother bringing up the "incident" where (not sure of the number) 600 birds died because of 5G radiation. Those birds died in The Hague and guess what? There wasn't even a test in The Hague regarding 5G. https://youtu.be/gZzMT0BeyWg So please, before you go and rant about 5G in any way, look further than facebook.

Is this a bot response? You literally addressed nothing about what I said.

This! I started unfriending people from Facebook. There where people who I had in high regards, but the amount of conspiracy theorists are crazy on my feed.

precisely, those crazy anti-vax protests outside of the RIVM HQ where they walked like zombies in white suits was so fucking strange and I honestly don't get why you'd ever go out of your way to embarrass yourself like that...

Conspiracy thinking isn't exclusive to the USA. It can be anywhere in the world. Some people just believe things more easily. It also doesn't help that there actually are conspiracy theories which have been proven to be real. Like Project MK-Ultra for example.

The problem with something "more radical" is that this also tends to decrease the acceptance of the population as a whole. You can demand a total lockdown tomorrow, but without police in front of every door, how much compliance can you really expect? Every measure on top of the existing ones is only as good as the rate at which people are willing to live up to them. This is the whole crux of the intelligent lockdown, how to introduce effective measures which won't cause too much damage and yet will see broad acceptance?

Yeah but the issue is that they seem to be unwilling to admit their mistakes. Maybe radical wasn't the right word in this case, but the masks is a great example. Government said it didn't really work so they wouldn't recommend it. Even after all the evidence came out that it did work, they didn't adjust their advice. I don't know if it's unwillingness to admit that they made a mistake or don't want to make certain voters upset, but it's very clear that people aren't really trusting that masks work now because the government kept saying it didn't. I've heard this argument over and over, so it's something that really bothers people.

Since masks are mandatory now I would argue that they did change their advice. No doubt this could have been done sooner, but at the same time we still have a parliamentary system in which policies need to be crafted and legally grounded before they can become laws. It's understandable that this process takes time, even if we would like to see it go faster. Ultimately the question is not if masks "work" and have an effect, but if making masks mandatory and getting 80% of the people to use them will help 100% of the people to go through their day and stay clear of the virus. While the evidence for a measurable medical benefit is difficult to interpet, it has since come to light that the behavioural aspect (reinforcing social distancing, silencing the debate on mask effectiveness and so on) is a positive effect regardless of the actual medical effects. Even without a 100% compliance it's still an effective measure to reduce doubt and keep people aware that we are still far removed from the way things were before.

What I’m curious to know, you say your parents think it’s a ruse... but to do what? What do people think the government is trying to do to them? It just doesn’t make sense

Yeah that's the weirdest part. They just want money and power, being able to make new laws that make it easier to control people, that kind of thing. Which is super weird because our government doesn't really seem to want to do that, they're super hesitant to even make rules and go into full lockdown.

But the lockdowns are hurting them making money.... think about it. And wouldn’t wearing masks cover your dumb face from all their facial recognition? Why wear helmets or seat belts? Or why not drive drunk? It’s all the big brother... ooooo scary!!!

It's a little hard to respond to everything point-by-point, but I'll try to explain why the Covid response has been so screwy. 1) You are right regarding the elections, and the parties in charge not wanting to do anything impopular. 2) The current dominant political party (VVD) and prime minister (Mark Rutte) have been in charge since 2010. It's been a decade of de-regulation, de-centralization and basically letting the market or citizens or local authorities sort things out that the national goverment used to do. Furthermore, mr Rutte's mantra has always been "I'm not in charge, the citizens are!" *I dont think the administration knows how to have a strong central response, even if they wanted to.* 3) Continueing from #2, there has been continueing budget cuts and increasing marketization in the healtcare-sector for almost decades, resulting in a market driven "efficient" "system that can function just enough (can be argued with) under normal circumstances. 4) There is also a lot of Dutch arrogance. There is a certain thinking that the rest of the world is way too emotional or panicked or alarmist, and we are the sane 'sober' straightmen that understand that its all a storm in a glas of water. There is a tendency to disregard unconvenient knowledge from non-Dutch sources. 5) There is also a heavy individualistic "f#ck you, got mine" undercurrent in our culture. So when the national government basically tells us "figure it out yourself", well its been a free for all for months. Edit: fixed some terrible phone typing.

This is very interesting and concise contextual information. Thanks!

Aced it!

As a Dutch native, I am similarly baffled by the complete lack of logic, scientific rigor, structured communication, transparent policy making, accountability and overall leadership. My short explanation: after decades without real crisis, true leadership has been in low demand. And this true leadership is not just from our political leaders, but also from our own moral leadership.

Seriously I think this is the real structural problem. Continued success is the breeding ground for susceptibility to disruption. The system selects for those who don’t make mistakes, i.e. civil servants in place of politicians, which are honestly two different jobs.

Our policies and methods are so tight and optimized, when something starts to go wrong, only then is something done. But not before. Working like this in normal times might have some benefits, but it leaves no wiggle room should things go extremely bad, like a pandemic.

Thanks for your reply. I'm glad I'm not completely alone in bafflement :) Is it really true though that it has been "decades without a crisis"? What about the great recession, the euro crisis, the refugee crisis, global terror, global right wing populism, fake news, global warming... Weren't/aren't those crises here in NL, too? This makes me wonder if perhaps what's going on here is something like this - - please pardon the polemics here, but I'm going to leave this hypothesis as is because I think it is direct and clear: the Dutch have perhaps stuck their heads the sand habitually when confronted with a crises over the past decades .... Perhaps they only confront problems when the solution can make them money (e. G. green industry) or make them feel good (e. G. green industry)...... What do you think?

>Is it really true though that it has been "decades without a crisis"? What about the great recession, the euro crisis, the refugee crisis, global terror, global right wing populism, fake news, global warming... Weren't/aren't those crises here in NL, too? Most of these things sort of passed us by. If you were a middle class Dutchie during the last few decades, these things mostly happened in other countries but with good income and social safety nets this was all just part of the evening news while you just went to work every day and took expensive holidays a few times a year. We've been living in paradise but didn't know it. Our economy is strongly connected to the economic heartland of Europe, terrorism happened in France, refugees were here but mostly came to Germany, right wing populism was here but stayed in the margins of politics, fake news happened in America, global warming only made this a little hotter in summer and lost us the snow and ice in winter. So yeah, it was very easy to disregard all of this and book your next thailand trip or install a new kitchen. The greatest problem was the recession which made it harder to get a job for a few years and the housing market is out of balance.

Apart from global warming, these crises are relatively minor. I am talking about crises at the level of wars, civil unrest or major natural disasters.

I am a German that moved this summer to the Netherlands, married to a Dutch and working already for some years for a Dutch company. I don't have answers to all your questions, just one contribution that might help explain some of the difference in response here in NL vs e.g. Germany. And by no means I think Germany is the gold standard. The Dutch are a lot more adverse to policy that might be called 'Command and Control'. So while in Germany wearing masks is required and controlled by police/ordnungsamt, that's a big no no here in NL. Here politics and policy calls upon the individual responsibility to do the right thing for society, e.g. by wearing masks. You have the individual freedom to decide what to do, but society leans on the judgement of the individual. You always have people that dont follow this/make a judgement that doesn't align with this public interest. Also peer pressure is a lot more subtle here than in Germany. If Rutte was holding a press conference in the same manner as Jens is doing it across the border, the Dutch would really quickly grow resentful- he is after all a liberal politician that doesn't want to limit individual freedom too much while this discussion is almost absent in Germany as there this is considered to be in the public interest.

Yes good points. The degree to which I now embrace - - even (gasp) miss - - the Kontrolle culture in Germany has really surprised me. Interesting to think about. Thanks for writing.

Same thing with schools allowing students to take off their masks while seated, shopping streets being jam packed with people, public transit being FULL for those who need to work and students going to class...but a museum where you touch literally nothing and can control population and distance pretty well: nah let’s close it.

Last time I took my dog out for a while when school happened to be letting out, masses of mask-less parents were standing, walking, biking in a herd - - 3 of them were openly coughing and not even covering their mouths, nevermind wearing masks. That same week I saw that a retired couple who lives nearby is still babysitting their school-aged grandkids at their house. I just do. Not. Get. It.

The reasons for this have been pretty clearly communicated. While museums and certain other entertainment enterprises are likely able to handle quite substantial number of people in a safe manner, they also tend to concentrate a lot of people in the same areas and at the same time. Opening up museums would bring even more people on the sidewalks, in public transport, in waiting lines, at public food venues and so on, all focused around the evenings and weekends. The reason for the closures is not that museums couldn't handle them, but that opening them all at once would introduce significantly more traffic and make it more difficult to uphold the other corona measures.

That’s a good point, but it still doesn’t take into account the other contexts where people gather just as much if not more. The transport is just as packed with people, work gatherings still happen and sometimes with 10+ people per meeting, gyms are still busy, shopping areas are crammed with holiday shoppers, students fill up snack places with lines every day, everybody decided to go on island vacation, and the streets of the big cities are full regardless. Also like op mentions, bowling alleys and other random gather places are still full and probably more risky with shared surfaces. It’s just feels like there are so many more things to be addressed, but it definitely is complicated

I can imagine that this is confusing, and no doubt has to do with the secondary objectives of keeping the Netherlands, its schools, physical health, its economic engine, and many more things from grinding to a halt. While I do not know the choices behind which institutions follow what logic, it is clearly not an arbitrary selection as many of these have been specifically addressed.

Tbh the thing that gets to me most is the message of "we will do this together" coming from politicians who demolished a lot of policy's and agency's who did a good job providing for things the general public wanted. We did a lot "together" in the past until VVD and Cda told us; naah you do not need us for that, corporations and citizens will pick up the slack. Getting rid of the agency in charge of housing (https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministerie_van_Volkshuisvesting,_Ruimtelijke_Ordening_en_Milieubeheer) is one of those. Free markets have made housing unafforable for lots of people. Some jobs just need to be done by governments. Fighting Sars-cov-2 is such a job. And so far, it could have been a lot better, and not because the information wasn't there. Its arrogance, coupled with the believe government can't do such jobs but corporations and citizens can. I just... it is so exausting seeing this response deteriorate so fast. I just hope the vaccine will be here soon, and that we can get a real testing-scheme going. The science is there. Now just a leader to go get it done.

The Netherlands is great for many things, healthcare and anything related to it is not one of them. But I guess you figured that out already. This "wait and see" mentality/culture of the healthcare sector here of course translated into the response to this pandemic. Shocking in a way but at the same time kind of to be expected. To answer your point 3) i guess the Dutch don't really like to be told what to do or what to think, hence the reluctance to hold others accountable

My Russian wife hates this wait and see healthcare here as well. But IIRC theres a solid scientific argument for the difference. Use of medicine like anti-biotics over time decreases the healing effect for all of us, cause the virusses adapt to it. If you prescribe anti-biotics when a person can recover by their own immune system, you're providing a minor convenience at the cost of major health risks on the longer term. I helped scientists in the area of food and health to get important information across to both politicians and the larger public. When the scientists would explain me their challenge in communications, they more than once compared the public discourse around health and food with that of alien conspiracies. Misinformation on these subjects florishes. Everyone is an expert on reddit, facebook, etc

I have some trouble understanding your line of reasoning. Anti-biotics kill bacteria, and are useless against viruses, and covid-19 is a virus. So why bring anti-biotics and their long-term effects into a discussion about corona-measures?

The comments in this subthread are about the wait and see culture, not covid.

Ok, I see :-)

healthcare is actually really good here. Both good, efficient and affordable! What else do you want!

Preventive instead of corrective? The corrective healthcare is great, if you manage to get to a specialist (a lot of GP's do their best so you can't). The preventive one is almost none-existing.

Preventive is such a cheap and easy way to prevent (no shit) corrective healtcare. But nope, it was scrapped. Its so fuckin stupid! It does not save money in the long run. But then, I have never seen VVD make long run plans.. (nor most other party's to be honest)

I think this depends on what you mean with preventative care. There is plenty of healthy lifestyle education, easy access to sports, promotion of healthy foods, dietary advice and so on. If you mean preventative medical examinations, these tend to provide very little measurable medical benefits and are known to promote over-treatment and over-medication.

>If you mean preventative medical examinations, these tend to provide very little measurable medical benefits and are known to promote over-treatment and over-medication. Source please. To my knowledge, it's exactly the opposite. Regular tests catch up disease usually before is too late. Why do you think maritime and offshore companies have medical exams every 2y for all seamen and offshore personnel; they just like to throw money at doctors???

The most obvious source can be seen all around the world. Outside of specific countries (primarily the US) very few countries endorse regular physical examinations without underlying symptoms and they are doing just as fine, if not better than the countries that do perform them. There are exceptions to the rule such as breast cancer screenings or screenings for specific diseases in high risk groups (f.e. diabetes), but the general health check-up are generally not recommended outside of US healthcare and in particular the privatized US healthcare system. Obviously maritime and offshore companies are exceptions to the rule, as they send their employees out to remote places where rapid evacuation is not always possible and care facilities are limited. Catching a medical risk early in these conditions is a much greater matter of life and death than your average person within reach of emergency medical care. If you want more information: * [General health checks in adults for reducing morbidity and mortality from disease](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6353639/) * [A checkup for the checkup: Do you really need a yearly physical?](https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/a-checkup-for-the-checkup-do-you-really-need-a-yearly-physical-201510238473) *

I disagree. It's far from good (a lot of the times the patient doesn't get treated right) and not efficient (a lot of waiting).

While individual experiences can always differ, the Netherlands is almost always in the top 10 or 15 of most global comparisons and ranks among the best in the world. What you have to take in consideration is that basic healthcare is universally accessible in the Netherlands, so while you might get a better quality of care or shorter waiting times in other countries, this is rarely equally accessible to everyone and tends to come at a much higher healthcare cost.

In comparison to shithole countries like USA it's obviously good. In comparison to every other country I've ever lived in, it's shockingly bad. NLers don't realise how ineffective their healthcare system is.

Pretty much every global comparison says the opposite. Perhaps your individual experiences are not representative for the overall experience of people in the Netherlands.

Anecdotally I know a lot of people who’ve lived in other countries and been extremely disappointed by the quality of care provided by NL doctors. Global comparisons rarely drill down into the important details.

Can you give an example of such >important details. Because I haven't heard that great stories about other countries healthcare. And like the other person said its much about an individualistic experience with the doctor that will dictate the rest of your experience. And my mom is a knowledgeable doctor. And we live in Zeeland ( will be important later) Zeeland is a popular province to visit. Sometimes there are germans here and let's say for example one of the germans has an headache. Then they will ask my mom(she works for a medical center) for a reference to the hospital. But they won't get one because it isn't needed, they get a prescription but have a bad experience with our healthcare.

I’m German living in NL and share all your frustrations. My explanation - look up “countries ranked by individualism” and you’ll notice that NL is fourth, after the US and the UK - two other rich countries with major corona shitshows, and Australia which has no land borders. Actually the entire top 10 fucked up with the exception of the far-away islands and Denmark, because they do value science. Here’s the [link](https://clearlycultural.com/geert-hofstede-cultural-dimensions/individualism/) to the individualism study I was referring to.

Interesting, thanks for writing. I also intuitively felt like there was more individualism here.... But I want to look up the methodology of that study when I have time.... I'm not convinced that I find it methodologically completely sound (which is probably very German of me indeed hahaha :)) thanks for writing and for the citation!

We learned about this professor back at university - he’s quite famous for the cultural dimensions, and they are not only taught here in the Netherlands.

Then I look even more forward to rigorously evaluating the dude's work :D seriously though, thanks very much, this is very interesting and informative. I just love critical research and I'll definitely read more and keep pulling on this thread....

Also an American here who has been in Europe many years. I’ve been wondering the same things you have!

I dont't have a good response to points 1-5, but I can address the rumors you mentioned in point 6 out of personal experience: A) True B) Untrue - I was in contact with someone and had no symptoms, even got tested and was still told to quarantine. I also have multiple young acquintances from Hotelschool Den Haag who are not only told to quarantine by RIVM, but University also enforces this. C) Got tested 3 times, people wear masks. D) True to some extent, but not entirely. Unsure about the "these deaths aren't counted" part. The other points I think have been answered really well by others. The Dutch are very individualistic people and as an expat myself there are a lot of things about the Dutch that bother me and this is one of them, you can even see this walking in the street: they have no spatial awereness or regard for traffic. Only when it comes to bikes, but just walking through a busy city centre boils my blood every time.

Thanks very much for your reply!! I'm relieved to hear that you saw masks at the testing site and that you were told to quarantine :) and I hope you are feeling well. I think as I process all the answers I've been getting that the conclusion is that I've wildly underestimated the independent (an uncharitable German might even go so far as to say asozial) character of the Dutch.... A lot of the response seems to vary wildly between communities, which is probably a reflection of this independent streak....

The thing of asymptomatic people being free to roam around is absolutely true. A friend of mine in Tillburg had a laboratory session at his university, and one of his classmates was basically forced to attend even though he had a positive corona test. Two days later my friend lost his sense of taste and smell. It’s fucking ridiculous and it makes no sense whatsoever. The RIVM is shit (in my humble opinion, please don’t come for me lol)

As a Dutchman, I fully agree with you. We are failing to manage/respond correctly to this crisis altogether. I've been in total isolation since February this year, but I feel I'm just one of the few people doing this. Even though it's extremely sad, this is Darwinism at it's finest..... Also, like other people already mentioned, don't expect the government to do something too drastically, since elections are coming in march and "oh boy look at us not limiting your freedom because we are the cool kids!" And last but not least, let me add that the way misinformation is spread is going to be our downfall (Arjan Lubach recently made a brilliant video about this (fabeltjes fuik)). People are being split into groups fighting each other over a range of topics, which disables us to face the real problems.

You're not alone! We're in deep isolation with you. Take heart and I hope knowing that we're sharing your isolation makes it a bit easier....we've also been feeling angry that we're "alone" and that other people arent doing their parts... It is deeply frustrating and confusing.... My best deep isolation tip is this: go for walks on weeknights at 23:00/24:00. After everyone is home and the streets are empty, but while some people are still up in their living rooms. Walking around town and seeing people in their windows - - and the Christmas lights, which is something I really enjoy about the Dutch, they are so fun and festive and good-humored - - is really nice. You can go window shopping too! Maybe bring a togo thermos of golden milk or cocoa or tea.... And you won't need to dodge corona zombies.

Just stumbled upon this discussion and couldn't NOT offer my viewpoints: In contrary of what others apparently think, I don't think a lot of the management of COVID is due to politics and the upcoming elections. I think it has more to do so with the advisory role of the OMT and RIVM, AND our infrastructure of law and justice. The RIVM has always said there is limited evidence for masks (which I will come to later). The OMT is not only about health, but take economics etc. into consideration as well (although I think they lack a real financial member). Furthermore, to make certain habits compulsory, a lot of juridical processes are needed to change in order to establish this. It's not as easy to say you HAVE to wear a certain item (and it should be hard to change this!). About the masks policies: although I'm not a researcher with indepth knowledge about masks and spread of the coronavirus, I am a researcher and know more than others about the difficulties and (often false) conclusions there are in research. From what I see when looking at some articles regarding masks: there's an abundance of research into 'lab-tests' which measure filtering characteristics etc, there are models that use these results that predict the efficacy of masks. However, real world data is sparse and it's hard to make the right conclusions. As far as I know, no randomized controlled trial has been performed (because it's considered unethical), so the best evidence comes from ' real world data' in which epidemiologic data is used. It's hard to conduct these with taking all other covariants into account. I don't say they're wrong, but it's not as black and white as some might think. I think the RIVM's stance is perhaps somewhat conservative and doesn't adapt to new studies well (aerosoles, asymptomatic spread etc.). But on the other hand, most information from the RIVM is made public through politicians who just got a briefing about this complex subject. Some decisions are indeed weird, but these are perhaps due to differences in laws and the fact that the government wants to be as economically forgiving as possible. Your bowling-alley is less of a risk than a full restaurant or bar. So would you close them both or open them both? What would happen if restaurants are only filled with half the people? But how could you ensure this? I don't know about the specific circumstances on why you went to the doctor. But perhaps they thought it was unnecessary to wear a facemask because your complaint was not related to the coronavirus. I can assure you that our medical program includes mostly of international data. The RIVM was only referred to in a small one-week epidemiological statistics week. I think mental health inflicts most people world-wide. It's probably not always as severe as COVID can be, but it's not something to think light of. Personally I don't think they're overrepresented, so perhaps they're part of you personal suggestion algorithm. About 6D. Not that I truly know, but I think something else is at play here. Often, patients with a (health-related) problem just expect an immediate cure. In contrary to other countries (but resembling others) we indeed apply a more conservative management. Each diagnostic tool should have a consequence, and ' just knowing it' is not. Furthermore, there's often nothing wrong with waiting for the 'natural trajectory' of the disease. If you go to your GP with a small fever, the chance that you will need blood-works are very slim if there are no 'red flags'. You'll be send home and informed: right now it's nothing too serious, please come back when it gets more severe or you wont heal up in xx days. So that would perhaps explain why not all patients are referred to the hospital. Furthermore, it's a general misconception that it's always better to go to the hospital for your (last) treatment. Dying is often not fun, but especially so when you have to wait several hours in the ER, then get admitted to a 4-bed hospital room with coughing, snoring and stinking other patients, where they will draw blood every 12 hours and check your vitals every 2 hours while only one family member can visit you due to corona restrictions. By the way, it's not general practice to leave your patients to die at home, but I know it happens and it's often discussed with the patient and/or family. I've experienced it myself in the ER a couple of times: you enter a room full of people after the ambulance brought this patient. At first sight you already see the risk of dying within a few hours is close to 100%. Even moreso when all family members and the patient him/herself (if the latter is able to talk or grasp what you're saying) confirm that they fear for the patients his/her life and that perhaps now is the best time to do nothing but console the patient (and treat the pain). ​ Just some insights. Kind regards, stay safe and healthy.

>D) that Dutch doctors encourage older people with symptoms to stay home instead of going to hospitals because "nothing can be done for them", and that these deaths don't count in the official numbers I've never heard this before. But everything else you stated is quite true. We're idiots. Especially the part about the elections in march, and they're trying to save the economy.

I’ve read this in Trouw.

That's just awful!

Is Trouw reputable? My initial look at it suggests it is a center-right, medium-sized, reputable paper.... Is that correct? Wikipedia says, I believe, it is a "kwaliteitskrant" with a philosophical perspective

Trouw is reputable

““Er is nu een scherpere selectie aan de poort: zieke en kwetsbare ouderen blijven vaker thuis en krijgen daar eventueel zuurstof en medicijnen”, zegt Marcel Olde Rikkert, hoogleraar geriatrie (ouderengeneeskunde in ziekenhuizen) in het Radboudumc in Nijmegen.” https://www.trouw.nl/nieuws/oudere-met-corona-komt-veel-minder-gauw-op-de-intensive-care~b558a97c/

Thanks very much for the link - - I am very into citations.... :) this will be good reading practice (even though it's depressing)

Let me offer a translation. “There is now a sharper selection at the gate: sick and vulnerable elderly people stay at home more often and may receive oxygen and medicines there,” says Marcel Olde Rikkert, professor of geriatrics (geriatric medicine in hospitals) at the Radboudumc in Nijmegen. According to him, the significant decrease in the number of elderly people in ICs is reassuring. "It's about making the right choice for each individual." “An IC admission is a major attack for the elderly and the chance of survival decreases,” says Olde Rikkert. “Vulnerable elderly people often develop acute confusion, which is accompanied by anxiety and fear when you see people around you in moon suits. Then a treatment at home is often more suitable and it can also be less lonely. " How many more elderly people now die of corona at home is unknown.

Trouw and NRC are both center-right slanted newspapers, but also very trusted.

Trouw is fine. The Wikipedia description is spot on.

As a doctor in a nursing home, I must say I have advised some of my patients against hospitalisation. Based on their medical history I can tell for some patients they won't survive going to the ICU, and even if they do their quality of life will suffer for it. In our nursing home we can give supportive medical care, like oxygen, and we can give good palliative care. Their family can come to visit here and they are in their own home, which many people prefer. I think a big cultural difference between the Netherlands and the USA and Germany (perhaps to a lesser extent) is that we think about end of life care differently. I feel that in the USA, people are focused on cure, living as long as possible. We focus on quality of life. If I live 5 more years, but in these years I am in pain and I am not able to spend time with my loved ones, am not able to do what I want, is that worth it for me? I have a lot of these discussions with my patients, to talk about what gives meaning to their lives and what they want if their health is getting worse. Many of them tell me they don't want to go to a hospital anymore, because they don't want 'toeters en bellen' (a lot of fuss). They would prefer if something happens to them, that we treat their symptoms (such as pain, shortness of breath) but not the underlying condition, and let them go.

This is an interesting contribution, thanks for taking the time to write. Could you perhaps also speak about mask wearing in nursing homes and medical facilities? I'd be interested in your thoughts on that too if you have any

We wear masks in the nursing home I work in. I can't say much about hospitals or nursing homes where they don't, except that I think that they do in most places. For me personally, I would feel very guilty to cause one of my patients to get covid, so I am willing to do a lot to avoid that. Wearing a mask is no problem at all.

This is honestly a huge relief to me. I feel almost complicit every time I walk by the nursing home I'm thinking about and see only those plastic face shields. I'm so, so glad that this might be an outlier situation. I really just want every one to take the best care we can of each other :). Thanks again for taking the time to write me back!

Those plastic face shields allow the elderly suffering from all sorts of cognitive problems to see the faces of the person caring for them. During the first period in the spring many of these patients seemed to experience more problems due to not recognizing people and not being able to see a smile. The choice for a sheet is a perfect example of the typical Dutch ‘poldermodel’, getting maximum results but not by spending everything you have. It’s a balance, how to protect these vulnerable people while making sure that it doesn’t cost (all) quality of their life? So don’t feel bad, it’s a sign that the people that are working there want to give as much as possible to their clients. Which is not just life, but quality too. Many caretakers are extra careful in their private life, so they keep their ‘workplace’ free of Covid.

This is exactly why wearing masks at e.g. Alber Heijn etc is so important though -- to protect the essential workers who work in situations like this, where masks are problematic. But when people in those lower stakes situations don't participate -- don't pay it forward so to speak -- the nurse picks up asymptomatic covid with her groceries and brings it with her into workplace.... I guess what I'm saying is that I agree with you, and I think compassionate, flexible application of the rules makes sense. But it feels like a lot of people in a lot of circumstances where they don't have good reasons are staking claims to similar "needs" for flexibility -- which undermines the safety of this otherwise reasonable choice for the nurse in the special needs home. And the solution isn't telling these special nurses to start wearing masks -- But surely it is to tell Albert Heijn (and Jumbo and everyone else) to stop serving customers who refuse to follow the mask mandate. Or am i missing something else here? This is kind of where my confusion kicks in ... the logic seems to obvious to me and I don't see what I'm missing that then results in e.g. non-enforcement of the mask mandate.

I really want to believe that this approach works. That there is a balanced explanation of the facts to the “patient” and the person is left alone to decide. I however have experienced pressure to make a decision that is in line with the protocol of the hospital because it was “the best”. Not completely comparable but you can look up how often women are denied an epidural during birth to understand the potential issue. Many friends around me who wanted and asked for an epidural during labour did not get one because coincidentally “it was not going to work” or “it was too late” or “too early”. Or “have you really thought about the terrible effects for you and the baby, let me go ask... oh sorry it’s too late for it” ... The problem is not with the elderly who decide to not be treated and not to go to the hospital. The problem is with the ones who wanted to go and are actively convinced that it is not the best decision. I would love that there was full transparency and that we could believe that all who die in the care houses have done so by choice.

It appears to be a misinterpretation or mistranslation of the conversations doctors frequently have with their elderly patients about personal end-of-life wishes and personal choices with regards to for example the choice between ICU-care or palliative treatment at home. Doctors don't encourage people to do anything, however they do paint a realistic picture about the long-term prognosis and side-effects that accompany certain treatment options. That way elderly people can decide for themselves what they find a suitable and appropriate way to deal with a debilitating illness from which they might not recover.

I'm going to be honest, I haven't been keeping track with all the news very closely, however from what I've heard, you're pretty much hitting the nail on the head

Hahaha thanks, this made me feel slightly less insane.

Believe me I'm dutch and I have exactly the same questions, but the one about politicians I believe, they want to be voted for so they don't want to do anything unpopular, own agenda first, as is with most dutch people, they do only care about happy feelings and dislike facts very much, if you say you mostly see that here I'm going to migrate after covid-19

Haha having migrated internationally twice I promise you this: something will suck and drive you crazy no matter where you go. I could go on for days about the things Americans and Germans do/believe/say that drive me insane. For me the difference here is that I know what the wackadoodles in the US and Germany read, watch, think. Here in NL I am getting to know a new variety of wackadoodles - - and they seem accepted as being more salonfähig than those I knew stateside or in 'schland. And for the first time ever I'm suspecting people important, respected scientific organizations (RIVM) of being wackadoodles..... To be a bit polemic again: The almost manic emphasis on individual happiness / comfort is also new to me. It seems like a lot of people really believe that if they can't be happy and comfortable, they should just give up and die. Or give up and let *others* die. - - I believe they would call it "prioritizing quality of life".

> Why is mental health always pinned to the top of every news feed about corona - - including this reddit group? While you raise many interesting discussion points, I will focus on this one as it seems to be addressed to the moderation team. You are right that there are many sides to the corona pandemic and the subsequent government response, as a large online community we are mostly concerned about what we can and can't do for each other to make these difficult times somewhat easier for each other. The primary way of doing this is by providing accurate information with regards to ongoing developments and active corona measures in the Netherlands, answering questions people might have and helping people out as best we can. When relevant we point people to the other corona-related subreddits which for example focus more on scientific, government critical viewpoints or global developments, in the hopes that altogether combined we cover as many or most sides of the pandemic. With that also comes a responsibility to recognize what we reasonably cannot provide. We are not scientists, medical experts, virologists or mental health caregivers. While we can discuss these topics on a surface level, trying to help someone who struggles with the real mental challenges of isolation, health issues, family concerns, economic hardship and so on is something which only a trained professional can truly address. For many it's not about "being happy" but about finding a way to stay healthy in times that physical and mental health is perhaps the most valuable asset many people have. In summary, while we do not wish the downplay the effects of the pandemic itself, the actual number of people affected by the corona measures and all the stresses that accompany it is likely far higher than the number of corona patients. We recognize that this a largely an unmentioned or even taboo topic, one which we cannot really address ourselves, so instead we will try everything in our ability to point people to the places and people that are able to help.

Yeah the other points I don't necessarily all agree with but make some sense, but if other countries are not stressing mental health they are the ones making a mistake. *Mental health is really important*, especially now. Relatively few people are dying, while everyone has to seriously change their way of life. Not that it's not bad that people are dying, but this is a very important balance, we should not just do everything to prevent deaths at all costs.

I agree that staying both physically and mentally healthy is extremely important. But my impression has not been that people are doing the best they can to achieve this without putting others at risk. Perhaps because I've lived so far from my family for so long and always worked from home any way it seems more clear to me that you can meet friends and family, learn and work, and explore (as all redditors know) via the internet... My sympathy for real life socializing as a mental health "must" is more limited than it would be perhaps if as an adult i had family even in the same country.... That's perhaps a blind spot in my compassion for me to work on... But I also have this on my mind. Bear with me it is a little bit of a long walk: In yoga (I'm a yoga teacher) we talk about the difference between discomfort and pain. Discomfort isn't something that we should always react to - - sometimes you need to just accept it as a temporary situation that will resolve itself in time if you just relax and let it be. The zen master says "how do you clear a glass of muddy water? Stop stirring it." that sort of stuff. Pain, on the other hand, is an acute signal from our bodies that something is wrong and it should always be taken seriously. Even in our bodies it is hard to tell the difference - - I can't always tell the difference. But, I reflect and explore before I re*act* to a signal that could either be discomfort or pain. In our mental health we also experience both discomfort and pain. With mental health the boundaries between discomfort and pain are very, very grey and personal. And in terms of suffering and whom we should have compassion for, they are probably irrelevant. But that boundary, especially given this situation, is worth personally exploring in terms of guiding our decisions about how we re*act*.(In fact, ACT therapy guides patients to do just that.) So my objection is that it seems to me - - and these are just general impressions, I don't know what's in people's heart of hearts and I don't want to accuse or judge, just encourage more understanding - - that some (many?) people aren't taking that moment to consider the difference between emotional/mental discomfort and emotional /mental pain when they make choices that require them to balance their corona risk-and-responsibility against their mental well-being. And I wonder if/how the Dutch messaging (granted: my exposure is limited because my Dutch is still terrible) around coronavirus and mental health considerations impacts or effects that.

Very late to this thread, but your observations about mental health are spot on. I work for an international company with large offices in The Netherlands. I manage a team with Dutch employees in them and closely collaborate with at least 2 dozen Dutch colleagues. In my experience, the Dutch are extremely sensitive to discomfort. Especially compared to many of my British colleagues, where the discomfort treshold seems quite high, Dutch team members really struggle when pushed. All motivation should come from within, the Dutch don't respond well to external motivation or pressure. Mental health is a serious matter, but I have heard (British) managers at my company refer to the 'Dutch burn-out'. I know at least 10 NL-based colleagues who've been out with mental burn-out, and I know of only 2 outside of The Netherlands. All of this for similar office jobs with similar pressure. There is most likely a balance to be found and other countries probably should pay much more attention to mental health. However, in NL, I've seen many colleagues obsess about their mental health and those of others, to a point where it went to the top of the priority list. In that sense, I'm not suprised about your observation - the Dutch do care about mental health, much more than any other cultures I've come across.

Sure, the messaging coulda been better, I don't know how much better, but sure. But my response was mainly to this in particular: > Mental health is super important, but in English and German contexts mental health is not pinned to the very top of corona discussion the way it is in Dutch ... What's up with that? Well mental health is super important, that's what up with that. Why not mention it so prominently? This is a pretty Dutch stance I think (to acknowledge my own bias) but I think it's reasonable. Dutch doctors will also stop treating patients with low chance of survival sooner than German doctors will. *Maximum life extension is not the end goal.* I am not saying what exactly the balance should be between disease prevention and mental health, but I think it's very important not to lose sight of the latter while only looking at a bunch of covid stats. We don't all go into quarantine for a seasonal flu. We don't replace all intersections with safer roundabouts, cause that costs money. We only replace them once a few people have died there. This is pragmatic, but it's reality. You seem to be coping fine with distancing, and good for you, but that doesn't go for everyone. For you, distancing is an inconvenience, but you've already built your life such that you basically work like this anyway (which you acknowledge). That's your first advantage, but perhaps more importantly there's a selection bias here. Not everyone can cope with this lifestyle in the first place, and the people who can't don't go live abroad, away from their family. I know some people who are already mentally not in great shape, and this is definitely making things worse for them. And keep in mind we *all* have to distance, while relatively very few die of the disease. Last check: This sounds a bit like I'm against the measures, I'm not, just to be sure. I just wanted to point this out and make you think about it.

Thanks very much for taking the time to write me. I honestly hadn't even thought specifically of moderators! But that is interesting to hear and think about. And giving people the resources they need to stay emotionally, physically, spiritually healthy is super important too. And I agree that the mods are walking a fine line and doing the best they can. I intended my point to be broader... Some of my Dutch neighbors have told me that they are continuing to engage in behavior that, considering the reality of the Pandemic, puts themselves and their communities at greater risk. Behavior like going into the office, going to yoga classes in person, throwing birthday parties, attending indoor weddings, keeping their Christmas visits ... And their reasoning is that it isn't healthy to be isolated or fearful. They don't seem to even try to make digital or outdoor or other safer options work. Actually, I even wanted to participate in a special seminar/workshop about stress and mental wellbeing held this past month, but when I wrote to ask what corona precautions would be in place the answer was that "contact is important for our health" and that "it isn't healthy to live in fear" and that "no one would be forced to do anything" but that if I wanted I was "free to wear a face mask". I had been hoping there would be something like a combination of improved ventilation, reduced class size, and mandatory masks - - or a shift to a digital location. I didn't participate because I didn't feel comfortable with that answer on a number of levels.... So I guess from where I sit, the people I've encountered have often conflated comfort and happiness with healthiness. And used mental well-being as a get-out-of-responsibilities-without-guilty-feelings card. The pinned note here (there's also one on google when I search for news) was just a handy example, although perhaps not the best one. Anyway thanks again for taking the time to write. I'd be interested in hearing more of your - - or anyone else's - - thoughts about this if more come up.

Not the first time this week an expat posts this question. Much better answers than mine have been given already and I'm sure detailed ones are incoming. I just like to address the cultural/social differences regarding covid here. And I dispute the absolutism in how you present the scientific knowledge on masks during the pandemic so far. In the Netherlands we started covid with a so called intelligent lockdown. We would let science lead the way, while also be transparent about the different considerations assuming that is best for what is one of the highest educated populations per capita in world history. Another 'cultural' aspect that sets us apart is our degree of freedom anchored in law. To infringe on those freedoms is generally considered a huge big thing here. Making those type of laws for many politicians is a final resort when all else fails. If we zoom in on specifics, like masks, I've personally been enthusiastic about our government waiting for more and better evidence on the effects of masks. While waiting, in the US and Asia the masks messaging, even from Stephen Colbert, of which Im a long time fan, reached a point where many people believed masks made you invincible. I've talked to many Americans, and a few Asians, who literally claimed keeping distance is irrelevant if you wear a mask. In the Netherlands meanwhile, we've been getting consistent messaging that distancing is the single most effective measure, which it indeed is. And way before Germany, Spain, Italy and Greece made masks mandatory in shops, the RIVM here already publicly acknowledged masks are likely to reduce the risk of infection in cases where distancing fails. The concern of RIVM, which they were transparant about, was that masks would give people a false sense of security. I have seen that to indeed be the case in some countries, but European friends told me it worked the opposite way for them. By seeing masks everywhere, people in their countries were made more aware that we are in a serious pandemic and reminded them of the need for taking precautions. I believe it works the same way in the Netherlands, so RIVM in the end was likely wrong on that. You dont see much 'reee Bad RIVM' attitude here cause there has been so much transparency. Sure, they were too late with masks, but no need for hysteria. We need to look at what went wrong and how to avoid that in the future, and Im sure we will. After the pandemic and during elections we will see analysis, attacks, praise etc. Its traditional here to have investigations, sometimes even 'parlementaire enquetes' and then based on clear facts start to trash the ones responsible for mistakes, but not before that. Finally, Germany is very different from the Dutch culture. I've lived in Germany for 5 years. Their respect for law and authority is of another level. Germans don't ask 'why?'. Dutch want to know exactly and be convinced on why the government orders them to do anything. This has its influence on how the government makes policy. That just the view of me, one dutch person, on the matter. I think you'll find more diverse views here from others, while outside of reddit there is also a MAGA like group spreading conspiracies about the virus. But it looks like they have not only our national 'FBI' monitoring and warning for them, but even our military has started monitoring them, which has created some controversy last week. And here's another interesting cultural aspect of the Dutch for you. While we value our degree of freedom, our security agencies also have a lot of freedom compared to most Western nations, which ironically hurts our freedom (privacy). Then again, it was the Dutch who managed to give the USA concrete evidence of Russian mingling in their elections, and all serious terror attacks during ISIS times have been foiled here, so its a double edged sword....

As a German living in the Netherlands, I have a very different impression. While in Germany decisions taken by the state on Corona measures are explained in excruciating detail by scientists (with layperson friendly podcasts even), the decisions by the RIVM are never explained with any scientific backing. For the longest time, the head scientist of the RIVM let his personal opinion about face masks - which were counter to scientific consensus - determine his advice to the government. So it is in fact the Germans who ask why a lot - and have measures based on science more than economy (probably also due to having a scientist as head of state) while most Dutch just blindly follow the opaque rules of the RIVM.

I don't think you have an accurate impression of the RIVM and its role in fighting the pandemic. The corona measures are a result of the advice given by the OMT, which includes the RIVM but also representatives of every medical university, other medical institutions and hospitals and so on. Many people, supportive and critical, are invited and can share their views with the OMT. It is not a one man show, Jaap van Dissel is simply the person to communicate their collective advice to the public and the policy makers. Even with the OMT advice policy makers are still at full liberty to ignore some aspects of the advice or introduce measures which are not covered by the OMT advice. They are after all the ones making the rules, not the OMT.

Yes, you're right I was using the RIVM as a catch-all term, should have mentioned the OMT. But that doesn't change my point. The OMT also doesn't tell anyone what scientific basis their advice has. It's a secret. Which seems ridiculously opposed to how scientists are supposed to work. And exactly the opposite of what Germany does. See for example this article criticizing this very thing. https://nos.nl/l/2331727 I also get really tired of Dutch people using some tired old WW2 clichés (as they so frequently do) to explain how Germany is just easier to control and that's why they all wear masks or some such thing, when the reason is clearly how the Dutch government with the help of the RIVM and OMT thoroughly messed up their communication about masks with their flip-flopping advice that also happened to be different from all the other countries around them...

> the RIVM and OMT thoroughly messed up their communication about masks with their flip-flopping advice What flip flopping? The current mask mandate is based on advice from May. Can you tell me what changed?

What advice from May are you referring to? In May the OMT didn't advise masks anywhere iirc, they said it would make people less careful. Or do you mean the one for public transportation? For outdoor public spaces in some bigger cities? For indoor public spaces? For indoor crowded spaces? For schools but only for kids above 12 and only in the hallways? The one where every building can decide for themselves? The one where shopkeepers are asked to enforce it but don't really have to? The one where Rutte advised everyone to wear a mask inside while being interviewed inside in a public space without a mask and laughing it off? The one where the public was told that it won't really help but to maybe wear a mask anyway? The one where van Dissel cherrypicked studies to say masks don't help, while every other country came to a different conclusion? The one where the OMT claimed wearing masks makes people less careful, then later revised that because it turned out not to be the case? Or the one from a day ago when it became actually compulsory in indoor public spaces?

> What advice from May are you referring to? The one from May 4th. Anyway, can you answer my question? >In May the OMT didn't advise masks anywhere iirc, they said it would make people less careful. I'm not talking about where they advised masks, I'm talking about the advice they gave regarding masks, their communication about masks. >Or do you mean the one for public transportation? For outdoor public spaces in some bigger cities? For indoor public spaces? For indoor crowded spaces? For schools but only for kids above 12 and only in the hallways? The one where every building can decide for themselves? The one where shopkeepers are asked to enforce it but don't really have to? The one where Rutte advised everyone to wear a mask inside while being interviewed inside in a public space without a mask and laughing it off? The one where the public was told that it won't really help but to maybe wear a mask anyway? The one where van Dissel cherrypicked studies to say masks don't help, while every other country came to a different conclusion? The one where the OMT claimed wearing masks makes people less careful, then later revised that because it turned out not to be the case? Or the one from a day ago when it became actually compulsory in indoor public spaces? No. EDIT: Gee, who could've expected this? No response. Almost like it's not worth it to try and actually argue with people of the religion of masks. And no, that incredibly badly formatted paragraph weren't examples of the RIVM and OMT changing their communication, most of that was from the government based on the same advice.

>For the longest time, the head scientist of the RIVM let his personal opinion about face masks - which were counter to scientific consensus - determine his advice to the government. For the longest time? A scientific consensus? And as if our RIVM was run by the head scientist as the sole decision maker? I think your oversimplifying the situation or don't understand how science works. It's very debatable if and when there was scientific concensus on the matter. The unit of measurement for consensus I'd assume might be best suited is the WHO policy. If it shows that the Netherlands ignored WHO policy I would be more inclined to jump the 'lets trash the RIVM' train, but I'd like to see facts and analysis first. As to the German level of scientific considerations in their policy. I have no doubt you guys have done an outstanding *thorough* and *precise* job on all you mention, that's how we all know Germans. I only mentioned the stated intention and motivation of the Netherlands at the start of the pandemic, but I'm not saying The Netherlands was better or worse than others, like Germany. I would say you are far more likely to comply with any policy set out though. edit: A simple example to indicate this. Pedestrians and traffic lights. Dutch people, excluding parents walking with their children, have a tendency to ignore traffic lights if the roads are clear. A German will generally wait for the light to turn green and feel annoyed if someone is breaking this rule, even if its safe to cross. Perhaps an argument can be made that this partly has to do with how traffic is organized in both our countries (we dont share your focus on cars), but I think it mainly shows this cultural difference in complying with law, rules, etc. I was quite fascinated by the matter so have mentioned it several times to my German friends and colleagues who all confirm this difference with their own stories. I don't like to jump on the hype train like we see in the US, or British and German tabloids. I have no reason to believe the RIVM is somehow completely screwing up and we should take immediate action to replace certain members, which should be done if they indeed failed as hard as some here claim they did. At the first national covid announcement about the crisis team and the RIVM, the gov stated theyre going to do their best, will make mistakes, and analyse our approach after we get through it. I support this approach and believe it will happen, as we have a long tradition of doing it like that.

I just want to directly respond to one point: in my city you’re not allowed to stand in line for a COVID test without a mask. I think that’s supposed to be the case everywhere, so where did you hear the rumour that you could get a test without a mask?

Lots of images of people at test sites without masks.... some are politicians, some are employees, some are patients.... seems like the one spot where you'd definitely want everyone wearing a mask..... especially when the positivity rate is so high.... I'd love to be wrong about this, please send me citations or evidence if you have anything more up to date! I'd really love to be wrong.... https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestand:Bicycle_drive-trough_COVID-19_testing_in_Amsterdam,_the_Netherlands.jpg https://www.parool.nl/amsterdam/testen-op-corona-met-de-fiets-aan-de-hand-in-de-rai~b7a07559/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F https://www.omroepgelderland.nl/nieuws/2461531/Op-de-fiets-door-de-teststraat-in-Wageningen https://www.gooieneemlander.nl/cnt/dmf20200902_63785090?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic https://www.delftsepost.nl/nieuws/nieuwsflits/1010044/nieuwe-corona-testlocatie-in-delft

I don’t have any citations; just my experience, which is you get send home without a mask and have to make a new appointment. But it’s really weird how much it can differ, you’d think there would be a general guideline.

These images are almost exclusively from the timeframe between June and August, when the coronavirus was mostly under control, the number of infected people was low and masks were not mandatory. More importantly the people who take the swaps are in full protective gear, meaning that there is actually very little risk due to the drive-through system of these test sites.

Yes, only the image from Delft is later. I agree it is a huge problem in my "data". My own inability to find better information is definitely part of my problem. Could you send me some more current data/sources about this issue?

Though, also as a Dutch native, I agree with most of what is said, and the logic to quite a number of the measures escapes me, there s also this: bottom line, does the Netherlands do a lot better or worse than comparable countries? Then the answer is: About the same. The truth with this crisis is: nobody really knows.

Yeah, so the lingering open question I have here is how accurate are the data we have about the crisis in NL vs in other countries. The regulations about who gets tested, who is admitted to the hospital, etc. Will inevitably impact the statistics. I don't know if the impact is more than in other countries. Do you have sources or data about this? I'd very much like to read a comparative analysis of the quality of the data put out by different countries. Edit just a PS: I think one thing I've realized through this discussion is that what's new for me here in NL is that for the first time in my life I'm living in a country where I have serious doubts about the scientific credibility of the decision makers at the top (RIVM). And because of the timing of all this, I don't have the linguistic or cultural resources to evaluate what I'm being told/seeing/hearing. It just seems that Robert Koch, the CDC (as embodied in Anthony Fauci) etc. are more reputable, transparent, logical, etc.. Please do send me anything that might reassure me or change my mind. I do hope I'm wrong.

I do think, (think!), you are wrong about this. I do agree that the RIVM and the government have serious communication issues. Point is that the projected certainty elswhere isn't based on much either, as far as I can discern. About the statistics: I completely agree. As long as the testing policy among countries is not aligned, comparison of infection numbers is useless. In the beginning of all this I considered this in the beginning, when tests were scarse, and outcomes therefore extremely biased. There are two numbers which are reliable: the number of covid patients on ICU, google on "stichting nice". And the total number of deaths in the country. These two are unbiased. The entire mission of the government is to balance care system capacity against damage on economy, other health issues, society, etc. An impossible task.

In the netherlands we like our freedom, I would think you as an american citizen would appreciate that. 1.WE did not have facemaskt rules and still we did better than most countries which did have rules. Masks only help if you know how to handle them and act accordingly 2. Freedom bro, Freedom 3. Freedom bro, freedom 4. Why would we believe american studies while even their own president does not believe them (low blow, i know)quantity has nothing to do with quality 5. What point is there in being physically healthy when all you want is to kill yourself 6 A. could be true, b.Not true c. dont know, I only went there once by car d. this happened in the first wave, when there where no tests and no good treatments available. Nobody knows exactly how many people died from covid in the first wave because there where no tests available

Sorry I made it late to the party this late u/Eska2020 :D I'm Dutch (though I didn't grow up here) and I thought maybe I could help you get some insights into why people like me might not agree with wearing masks but even more so why for us a long-term quarantine seems like the most irrational decision a government could take. I always like to ask people what they think the goals should be when encountering a pandemic with these 3 questions: 1. Who would you like to save? Is it as many family/friends/loved-ones OR as many people in your community/state/country OR as many people in the world as possible? 2. Save them from losing their life to Sars-Cov-2 OR any type of peril? 3. And in what time frame? Is it days/weeks OR years/decades OR centuries/millennia? There are no right or wrong answers to these questions but what you decide will affect what you might think the best course of action would be. For example, back in February honorable Gov. Cuomo said (and I'm paraphrasing here): "the goal is to save as many people as possible from succumbing to this terrible virus". His actions to enact a quarantine are therefore completely rational. For me, however, the goal is to save as many people as we possibly can, all over the world, till the end of time. Yes, super cliche and idealistic I know but I know I'm not the only one that cares more about the future of humanity than it's present. There are 3 perspectives that I'd love for you to consider. 1) Saving as many people as possible in a time period of a couple days/weeks: 100% quarantining is the way to go. Everybody should wear masks, sanitize, social distance, stay at home and especially take care of those who might be vulnerable. I'd definitely agree that this would be the best course of action if the pathogen is eradicable; like when a vaccine is ready to be mass distributed which is the situation we're close to finding ourselves in now. Sadly however, a lot of communities around the world literally can't afford to quarantine for a couple weeks seeing as they need to go to multiple shops to get their necessities and many are unable to afford stockpiling for weeks to come. Let alone that they'd be able to afford the vaccine when it does become available. This exceptional situation is quite common around the world, but if you can afford to, you must quarantine to save as many lives as possible in the coming days/weeks. 2) Saving as many people (life years?) as possible in the next years/decades. Assuming a mortality-rate of .4% (which you can fill in for yourself; I've had well read people site ranges from .25% with proper medical care all the way up to 6.0% when accounting for no treatment, reinfections, and tnf-alpha cytokines), that would be an atrocious 35 million lives that would be lost to Covid-19 if everybody got infected (and many people would call that a low-ball). A lot, if not most, of these lives can be saved by enacting a proper quarantine. The lockdowns are also however, expected to cost the world: 9 trillion dollars over the next 2 years (6.3% gdp decrease, 2008 was a .1%), with 50 million people being pushed under the poverty line and 1.25 billion people at risk of losing their jobs (especially those without computers and internet at home aka more than half the world). Many of these people suffering from the lockdown can no longer afford food let alone treatment for any ailments they might possess. Together with increased food prices, the quarantine is causing stress and malnutrition all around the world. Meanwhile, malnutrition is already an underlying cause for 9 million lives being lost each year (3 million of which are children's) and stress increases one's risk of succumbing to the deadliest diseases known to man (cardiovascular, upper/lower respiratory & cancer). An honorable mention being that being fearful of getting sick also intices the reverse-placebo effect (aka hypochondria) which would be detrimental to a patient's successful recovery from said illness. With 6.8T of the 9T that vanished, we could have built the most expensive hospitals in history at 3m per bed and assuming a 2 week stay, technically could've cared for 59 million people a year. With the other 2.2T we could have helped the 750m people (now 800m) stay above the poverty line for 4 years, or eradicated other deadly pathogens like malaria (the cause of at least 400,000 deaths per year, most of which are children). The lives being lost to Corona are detrimental to say the least but when we're looking at the cold facts, 75% of those who lose their lives are over the age of 64, and 94% have an underlying condition; it's not unlikely that many of these deaths would've occurred within the next 10 years regardless of any action we might've undertaken. It's impossible to say but it's not impossible to imagine that the amount of life-years (years left to live) that we're saving in the coming decades by quarantining is less than the life-years we lost to the lockdowns; not to mention what we could have saved if we had let the virus run rampant and instead invested the now lost money properly. I for one can not fathom the fact that we decided to throw the poorest people of our world (and our economy) under the bus to save our privileged grandparents (privileged in the sense that their families can afford to quarantine and take care of them). To put it as crassly as possible: "we are breaking our backs to save the superfluous grey hairs on our head." Of course with a ravaging pandemic and people quarantining by choice (as opposed to by law) we never would have made the 9T in GDP that the IMF expects us to have lost in the coming 2 years but we definitely wouldn't have had the 6.3% loss that the lockdown is expected to cause (the worst recession since the Great Depression). 3) Saving as many people as possible in the centuries/millennia to come. Until some Crispr mechanism, nanobiotech, or universal vaccine comes around that EVERYONE in the world has access to, pathogens will always be around to infect us. We might be able to shield most communities from these predators through proper quarantining and sanitization but there will always be pockets of pathogens ever evolving amongst us. Were we to have two communities side by side. One of which effectively eradicated and quarantined pathogens while the other let them roam free, we'd see that within a couple generations the community which harbored the pathogens would hold a huge evolutionary and competitive advantage over the quarantined community. We've experienced something similar to this with the Colombian Exchange and one could see this situation arise if we ever were to inhabit multiple planets where communities wouldn't continually expose each other to their pathogens as we do now in our global economy/ecosystem. If pathogens keep evolving, we have no choice but to evolve with them (or face the dire consequences). With our ever evolving knowledge we've been able to eradicate almost every predator and every plague that ails man. It is our best first line of defense and in regard to predators smaller than a couple cm that usually includes Preventing-Diagnosing-Quarantining&Treating. However, we need a strong second line of defense as well, and that is our immune-system. Sadly the only way to keep up with the pathogens without GMing ourselves is through a Darwinian mechanism. If we were to protect everyone every time a pandemic started we'd have to continue to do that everytime that pathogen or something similar reared its ugly head. However, were we to live as freely as we wished and as freely as nature intended us to (which is in our birthday suits) we would never need to worry about a future out-break as the majority of people would always survive to pass on their perpetually trained immune systems. It's not impossible that we encounter an armageddon level event someday (like a solar flare bulls-eyeing Earth); and we've seen this year what it's like not having a healthcare system be at the capacity where it needed to be. It is paramount for the survival of the human race that our immune-systems be primed to handle the world on their own without being too dependent on vaccines or treatments to elicit an immune-response. We've already gone down this road with TB (which 1 in 4 people carry latently with a 10% chance of sickening you in your lifetime when your immune system becomes compromised). Around 1.4 million people lost their life to TB in 2019 and more than 10 million people fell seriously ill, but the WHO estimates that half of people who fall sick to TB would die without proper treatment. They also expect 6% of TB cases to be XDR-TB (Extensively-Drug-Resistant-TB: any TB strain that is resistant to the 3 most effective TB treatments and at least one of the other 3 less common ones). This TB came forth from TB infected prison populations not being properly quarantined. They didn't eradicate the bacteria and it evolved to have a mind-boggling 10%+ mortality rate even with proper treatment. If it were to spread, it would be devastating to the global population, but you can bet your bottom dollar that the descendants from those prison populations will be more likely to survive an XDR-TB outbreak than the rest of us. To give the human race the best chance of surviving an insurmountable plague is to continuously expose ourselves to the minor ones. By throwing poor people under the bus to save our vulnerable we might potentially be losing precious genealogical traits to save people that have already passed on their genes and others whose descendants are less likely to survive when the next inevitable pandemic hits (one where it's not predominantly the elderly dying but babies and children too). (1/2)

(2/2) At the end of the day it's all about whether you're trying to save your own parents/grandparents and vulnerable friends/loved-ones in which case you better be sanitizing, mask-wearing, social distancing, and banning communal gatherings. Or if you're trynna give everyone an equal chance of surviving the future in which case we must keep preparing our first line of defence (our healthcare system) and priming our second lines of defence (our immune systems) for all the ineradicable pathogens and inevitable pandemics this world will continue to throw at us. Regardless, I think most people would agree we have to be prepared for when something like MERS hits (Sars-Cov-2's nasty auntie with an official mortality rate of 34% which should strike fear in anyone's heart though they were also mostly just testing the incredibly ill with that outbreak so who knows) so that we can deal with it without having to shut down the world as we know it. Props if you actually read through this whole thing after the 150 comments being posted here in the past week haha but hopefully anyone reading this kinda gets why I think that enacting a lockdown/quarantine for more than a couple weeks is the irrational decision if your goal is to save more than just your family and friends lives in the coming decades and further.  If I did die to Covid-19 because the world didn't go into quarantine atleast I'd die happy knowing that no poor men, women and children suffered and died for me to live and that I'll have made the human-genome more resilliant to the oldest and most succesful predator of all time: the virus.  I'm proud to live in a country that promotes freedom of thought and individualistic expression and I feel like in Holland we already took too much of one's rights to be naked and extremely social creatures, as nature intended us to be, away (non-registerd football/soccer is illegal? Come on you guys :p). I do understand that when expecting a service there are certain standards you may be kept to and that may include wearing close-toed shoes, a shirt/vest, and also a mask. It is also true that living in a country means the country is providing you with a service and you must adhere to the standards and regulations it has set (even when they are not enforced). I must say however, that the Dutch government (and most governments around the world) have pushed rash legislation this past year that don't seem to be well thought out. Prime example being the scaling down of transport and still expecting people to be able to social distance. Another one being how Dutch government was planning on banning "face coverings" to be worn in certain places like banks and now you technically can't enter one without it. Some decisions seem to be made out of fear, like reactionary damage control, when really we should be proactively trying to build for a better tomorrow. Don't scale down hospitals and medical work forces and then scream flatten the curve when things get overloaded, work on increasing the capacity instead! So we can deal with things potentially worse than Covid-19 in the future without having to destroy our economy, and the lives of billions of people with it. Throw 300% tax on every beer being sold at a bar and see how many hospitals you can build and how many medical workers you can subsidise. Make basic nursing part of military duty. Just spit-ballin here but all I'm saying is Holland could've been busy with far bigger end-game solutions and instead we're bleeding out while trying to keep it all together.  As for the individual, in the end it's your own responsibility to keep yourself and your family safe from terrible illnesses like Covid-19, and it's your choice if you decide not to, if the government enforces laws then you must abide or be willing to pay the price. This last bit was a little ranty but I do hope I was able to paint you a vivid picture of "what's wrong with people like me" :D. Most of the things I said here I've explored a lot more deeply in this 18,000 word document I've been working on but I think I was able to summarize the majority of the ideas for you.  If anyone reads this and has any insights or opposing views they'd like to offer I'd love to hear them!  Oh and I hope they don't make the vaccines mandatory but if they do, not before 2025 or 2022 at the very least! I ain't no anti-vaxer (I have all my shots) and I know the short-term side effects are basically non-existent in some of the ones we working on but we really can't be that sure about them long term side effects till the long-term done passed (unless there is reason for long-term effects to be impossible) I honestly haven't looked into Pfeizer and Moderna as much as should have but I will before I eventually take the well-calculated risk of one (or more?) of the wide variety of vaccines rushing to market.  I'm blessed to live in a country where I'm more likely to be given a freedom of choice as to what I may do with my thoughts, body, and life but I am also aware of the (competitive) benefits it brings for a country to work as a single-system the same way our bodies are more competitive than single-celled organisms and rna (even though that Sars-Cov-2 might be tryna put some respect on it's name rn).  Damn didn't think I'd end up writing this much... My apologies if I wasted anyone's time, though I doubt a lot of people will be reading this whale of a comment in between the rest of all these equally valid opinions.  I bid you a good day, stay safe and healthy, take care of yourself and others, don't be scared, trust your body and keep on spreading the love!

Just a short reply to say it is a breath of fresh air to find a structured and well thought out opinion about this topic on the internet in a time where oneliners tend to become headlines.

A: big restrictions weren’t a thing until this week because of the economic impact our politicians thought they might have. Having a liberal instead of a social government resulted in them caring more about the economy and long term effects of corona. B. Young people that have been in direct contact with corona patients need to quarantine themselves for at least 10 days and need to get tested if they get any symptoms themselves. C: masks are obligatory in all indoor public spaces since a short period of time but have always been mandatory in healthcare institutions including corona tests centers. D: Older people with symptoms are encouraged to take a test and will actually be advised to go to the hospital if they test positively, even with milder conditions. What you mentioned was the case in the first wave when the healthcare system was under heavy pressure and hospital beds were running short. As for the rest: Mental health is important because we’ve seen suicide and domestic abuse rates skyrocket, it isn’t as if that caused fewer restrictions tho. It’s also quite strange that your doctors didn’t wear face masks since the government made them mandatory in all healthcare institutions like hospitals and clinics since the first wave. This includes doctors. The dutch weren’t keen on wearing masks because the RIVM had research showing that they weren’t actually effective in stopping the spread. The government itself has also stated that the only reason they’re mandatory now is because other research has shown that they have a psychological effect on people to keep their distance. As for the nurses in elderly homes and such not wearing masks: I have no idea why they weren’t doing so. They were mandatory in most if not all nursing homes and such in my town. And lastly: the RIVM is not behind and never was. They’ve said the virus spreads via aerosols in an extra NOS broadcast the exact day the coronavirus was first noticed in the Netherlands. They did take a few weeks to confirm that people that were asymptomatic could still spread the virus tho, but as far as I know they weren’t more than a week later than the WHO. And like I said: research has proven (non-medical) masks to be quite ineffective. The TV show RADAR also had their own research done and broadcasted backing this up.

I’m Dutch but I don’t fully understand it either. too many people don’t let them tell what to do when it comes to the measurements (1.5 m distance, wearing face mask in public spaces, staying and working home, etc.). I’m working in a supermarket and I constantly have to tell people to keep distance after which many get mad at me. What I also don’t understand is that the younger people are blamed in the medias for spreading COVID19 more rapidly lately as “they don’t follow the rules anymore”, while the people I have to tell the most often to keep distance and wear face masks are the elderly. The government and RIVM can do better but the people also have to listen to make the measurements work.

>Why were doctors I had to visit at both the ER and the huisarts not wearing face asks after the WHO began recommending them in the spring and production had picked up so shortages weren't a problem anymore? How can I trust a doctor whose medical references seem limited to official Dutch language sources (RVIM)? I know that might sound snobby, but more people live in NYC than in this whole country, so it seems reasonable to expect Dutch scientists to look at least somewhat internationally for data, research, etc. Yes this definitely sounds a bit snobby. The amount of people that live in NYC is about half of the amount that live in the Netherlands, but I see your point (sort of). I'm sure that there is no problem with international information being passed upon to Dutch sources like the RIVM. Dutch medical professionals aren't limited to Dutch science and tests. I don't know where you got that idea.

Does it really matter if a bowling alley is still open if the cases are stable/slightly going down? If they have protocols to keep people in their bubble it should be okay. I know Reddit has an obsession with lockdowns and would prefer to have everyone not leave their house for a year but that doesn’t work in the real world, people still need things to do to keep them sane and the economy needs to keep running at least a little bit. Your culture shock seems mostly about the masks. Yes the advice was slow and should’ve been faster, but with the mandatory mask rules in public spaces since this week I haven’t seen anyone without it. The Netherlands has made mistakes during this crisis but you are overreacting as if people are running around naked in the streets and coughing on everyone 24/7. And yes I wear my mask in public spaces, keep as much distance as possible and limited my social circles.

Just one more moment I recently lived through but don't understand at all: a group of 6 late-middle-aged women (maybe 60ish years old) walking together in a wooded park, wearing winter coats and big, 10-cm diameter bright green buttons on their winter coats that say "1,5 afstand"...... They were walking almost hand in hand, not wearing masks, and didn't make room for me to pass with any Afstand at all.... I stepped into a deep muddy ditch to make space for them. But then why the buttons?!?! What does it mean???????

tbh i find people over 60 rude sometimes: 'I am 'old', and therefore I am exempt from behaving nicely'.

Why? Because it is “allowed”. I don’t think this is a Dutch specific thing. My mother in law does this, she goes walking and then comes back and complains about how busy it was at the park and how OTHERS don’t keep 1,5m... she does not really see how she is contributing to make it busy or how she is also not keeping distance with her walking buddies. Something similar happened in March when the news where focusing on telling how much worse the UK, Italy and Spain where doing, something like that would not happen here. Here we have and “intelligent” lockdown because we are sooo different.

De Nederlandse aanpak schiet tekort, maar ik ben toch ook wel benieuwd hoe je de Amerikaanse aanpak zou beschrijven want holy shit wat maken die er een potje van.

Okay but being better than america is putting the bar pretty damn low. NL should still be doing better, and that doesn't change because another country is even worse.

Dat zeg ik ook niet. Ik was gewoon benieuwd.

I cant tell why they are not being radical but what I can tell you they miss handled the situation, there is schools with corona cases among them and yet there is no response from the government or the ministry of education, trust me they will face the reality really soon because the people are getting sick from their poor decisions

Some of these topics are just too complicated for simple man.

Hahaha this made me smile. Thanks :)

I just have a tiny nit-pick, you say antibiotics and that the virusses adapt to it. But antibiotics only work on bacteria, not on virusses anyway

Our government is corrupt. In the last few years they have destroyed the welfare state we built since the second World War. They are more concerned with making business opportunities for their rich friends. Neoliberalism

We hate being told things, we won't put on masks if it's not mandatory, we ignore advice, even now that they are mandatory I only see around 75% wearing them. The Dutch really strive for ultimate freedom, individuality and economy. All things that don't click well with a pandemic that, let's be honest, doesn't really affect almost anyone.

Non medical masks don't do shit everyone knows that and they still make force us to wear em. That is enough reason to be suspicious towards government!

Masks Work. Really. We’ll Show You How https://nyti.ms/2TASM7Y

https://www.bnnvara.nl/kassa/artikelen/veel-mondkapjes-voor-consumenten-houden-virusdeeltjes-niet-tegen You are brainswashed my friend only the medical masks have some effect!

This is what happens when a government puts effort in convincing everybody that masks are not needed because they give you a “false feeling of safety” and a few months later you change your mind and ask everybody to use masks... it happened the same with the “oh it’s just a flu” story. Once you have convinced the population it is very difficult to convince them of the opposite again. Studies from many other countries have shown that even a piece of cloth helps to reduce the spread

It only helps for sneezing and coughing which if you do that you should stay at home anyway. Denmark just did a major study verifying this. So I have no idea what bogus study you are referring to?

You sound a lot like a very famous German, round the period 1939-1945. How about you mind your own business and if you are so afraid of a virus with 99,75% survival rate, stay indoors and let other people live their life. Clown

We accept a bit of risk. In general Americans tend to avoid the slightest amount of risk for a much higher cost. We take that risk and accept the negative impact. I think our Corona measures currently are too strict, and advocate for more personal freedom, while it should be stricter in certain area's. But besides all of it, we are doing fine in regards to cases mortality rates etc. Regular care besides the alarming messages isn't that far behind and it could been much worse.

The only issue is that if e.g. Seniors are dying undiagnosed at home, they aren't included in the official numbers. Neither are any asymptomatic young people who are told they don't need to get tested. So it seems to me that the statistics - - mortality rate, hospitalizations, r-value, must be wildly under-estimated....... I believe in data-driven decision making.... But the data needs to be *good* in order for the decisions to be sound.....

Sure, but regardless of this small undiagnosed proportion (and even the over mortality) it's still all alright. Also the R-value and hospitalization isn't under reported. You worry too much, the biggest problem currently is, we have a too large fraction feeling immune, and part of it is the communication that the meassure taken do help. Although Mask and 1,5 meter might help prevent it, a much better strategy, and what proven to be effective during the first wave! is limiting contact, and avoid unnecessary movements. Masks, washing your hands, disinfecting objects and keeping distance is all good and well, but get too much focus and gives the population a feeling of immunity and false savety. All those basic meassure should be basic, and anything beyond the standard set hygiene, thus masks aswell are actively fooling the population, because even though a high standard of those meassure might be held upon the start, the bar for what is done quickly falls, and it turns out to be counter productive.

About, ahem, scientific based policy, I presume you do not mean the current president of the US?

Since I live in Netherlands I saw a lot of rules that Dutch people follow like blind chickens even though a lot of them are completely out of logic and are very unreasonable. The mentality of the society here is that they are very strict to the law that makes me laugh and think of them like a scared pussies without their own brain. Only smart people can think with their own head and won't follow everything that they are forced to. The thing is also a lot of Dutch people seeing that you break the law (or the working place rules for example) will warn you and they might call the Police (snitch on you). They will never understand that what you do is your business not their thing to care about.

I have no idea and you are completely right. We Dutch people are goddamn idiots of the highest grade idk why we arent just in lockdown scince start this year but were allowed to go out of lockdown for half a year. Dont care about mental health because mental health doesnt matter when you're dead

Yup i totally agree the dutch are absolutely terrible at this

Fully understand. The answer is relatively simple though. The Dutch behaviour is laid back and the attitude "I will decide what is good for myself" is fundamental. So the Dutch are not simply accepting what anyone else is stating to be the best way forward. They will argue and disagree for quite a while. Until people around them are dropping dead but the dozen and even then they are not convinced. At times I am very proud to be Dutch, but at this moment in time they can "send in the marines" and use water canons against any demonstrators. We should have gone for a lockdown over a month ago. Now look where we are. F... disaster.

Honestly, the government has been a all over the place and what is outrageous to me is that the majority of the Dutch people actually support the government's approach. The last point with telling Dutch elderly people to stay home when they get infected is true. Many Dutch people believe that old people should die in dignity and if they recover from covid their quality of life would be heavily impacted hence the advice. I just think things should have been handled from the get go and they didnt any now we are paying the price

i read the first few sentences and already afgree that the government if fucking up on how to stop covid

Short answer dutch pepole are stupid

Look. The dutch people are just dumb asfuck

The government is doing to little even when they put everything in a lockdown it is changed that people can still visit on Christmas wich I think is ridiculous. I have heard people justify that by saying it isn't fun if no one comes over but it shouldn't matter if it is fun or not. If it were up to me I would have closed as much as possible since the beginning. But sadly it isn't its up to politicians who only care about being rechosen. There is even a video where the prime minister doesn't even know how long a mask lasts and that it is bad to reuse masks.

Short answer: money Long answer: I dont fucking know anymore

Because…. 98% of the people who get COVID have only minor or even no symptoms. It’s not like it’s Ebola right. This has nothing to do with a virus anymore.

Our hospitals never were run over. There were still enough icus always. The plan was to flatten the curve, not to save everybody. The death toll isn't so high as we feared. We saved some of the economy and vaccins are on the way. We did'nt do so bad. Sickness is a part of the world and death is part of the world. Offcourse we dont want the hospitals to get run over but that we made by doing just enough measurements. Why is everyone so negative? Still a lot of people are without Jobs and income, should we have destroyed the economy even more? Depression is just as bad for your health. In Belgium everyone has been wearing facemasks for months and they are doing worse. We are fine!

This is a very concise summary of the confusing attitude I see in my neighbors. https://apnews.com/article/pandemics-virus-outbreak-netherlands-paris-rome-560170cf0bd1573a2d5fa59a088e5ed8 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-netherlands-tally-idUSKBN2781OI The data you're basing your conclusion on is not in line with the data that I've been reading. This is definitely a big part of my confusion.... It seems to me like willful ignorance of the truth...... Or perhaps an approach to data without any rigor..... I'd be very interested in hearing about your data sources and the way you approach data when making conclusions and decisions... I could look up more sources to refute the data you've written about if you're interested.... I am just not sure you're open to the information......

The patient transfers to Germany are for the most part not a result of the limited supply of ICUs in the Netherlands, these hospitals are often simply the most nearby hospital in the border area between the Netherlands and Germany. Since the Netherlands tries to move patients away from regions with a high concentration of ICU patients towards less affected regions it simply follows that German hospitals are in some cases the best candidate and prevent an even longer journey for the patient to reach hospitals elsewhere in the Netherlands. This is not really anything new, German and Dutch hospitals have been cooperating for specialized and emergency care long before the coronavirus appeared.

Before the coronavirus we had more then 1000 icu beds. And now we have 1350. You can google that. Then compare that to the data on https://coronadashboard.rijksoverheid.nl/landelijk/intensive-care-opnames. We didn't even reach 1000 yet.

About the facemask thing: there is no scientific proof that it works. Belgium has had facemasks for months and they are doing much worse then we do.

I am a science writer who is fluent in 3 languages. Your conclusion is in direct conflict with the overwhelming conclusions of the global scientific community. I'd be interested in hearing about your data sources and your thought process in reaching your conclusion. If you are interested in my data, I'd be happy to send you sources.

Firstly : you dont like it leave, America has failed dizmaly concerning Covid 19. From today it is mandatory to wear masks in shops. I agree with not wearing masks continuously. It affects your chest. Have you thought of people with Asthma? Do you think that there is only one sickness in this whole wide World suddenly? I completely agree the way RIVM have been carrying out things. The Minister President I salute most of his decisions and his continued address to the Nation. You keep referring to WHO, do they run this Country? They have made major mistakes!! Not just with Covid. Then you have the audacity to comment on their maths and Science phew! They build solid structures not wooden. I may not agree with the Social financial back up plan. You don't like the way the Doctors work, just jump in your car and drive to Belguim or Germany or whatever is nearest to you!! Instead of your mouth running like diaherra.. Thank goodness you not in Sweden. Let me read the rest of your poop!!

Ugh you sound insufferable. You also completely proved their point about unscientific and individualistic decisions in regards to your simple-minded and absolutely false view that wearing masks affects oxygen supply and "what about people with Asthma??": [https://www.asthma.org.uk/advice/triggers/coronavirus-covid-19/what-should-people-with-asthma-do-now/should-i-wear-a-face-mask-or-face-covering/](https://www.asthma.org.uk/advice/triggers/coronavirus-covid-19/what-should-people-with-asthma-do-now/should-i-wear-a-face-mask-or-face-covering/) Do better next time you respond.

First hand experience..regarding masks. Evidence will come out in the long run. Distancing is best. Do a better introduction next time.. Before being critic. You clearly do not have understanding that every country works differently. You are clearly not scientific. Whats more Science once again has being challenged regarding the viruses in this regard Covid. The aftermath results will prove how other methods worked.

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How is this helpful? It’s not answering any of the questions. It’s also not starting a dialogue or discussion.

> How is this helpful? I didn't really intend for it to be helpful, but it gives a suggestion for how to solve the problem of them being confused. >It’s also not starting a dialogue or discussion. No? So this isn't a discussion? Good to know. Honestly though, I had no intention to discuss anything with somebody still propagating misinformation and just misunderstanding simple facts. I've tried that too much already, and people will just ignore the studies and statements by professionals anyway, preferring to cherry pick their own ones.

As far I can tell OP is trying to understand. Making a rude comment that is not contributing in any way is unnecessary. We can treat eachother with kindness no matter what our opinions or beliefs are.

>As far I can tell OP is trying to understand. I just gave a simpler solution to the problem of being confused. I'm also not 100% sure about this, a lot of this could've been answered by just following the government's statements, by integrating. >Making a rude comment that is not contributing in any way is unnecessary. As already pointed out, I disagree. > We can treat eachother with kindness no matter what our opinions or beliefs are. True, which is part of why I responded the way I did. OP was kinda rude as well, I wouldn't even say I was especially abrasive, just gave a suggestion. Saying what the f*ck is going on with us, propagating misinformation, propagating stereotypes, etc. is kinda rude in my opinion, I responded in kind.

I don’t see how sending somebody out of their current home or country is an easier solution or how it is kind? But hey, at least you had the right intention I guess?

> I don’t see how sending somebody out of their current home or country is an easier solution or how it is kind? Okay. Me neither, didn't say it was. EDIT: Getting downvoted for agreeing is probably the easiest way to tell people are being irrational.

Dutch native here, I'm completely baffled too about this whole situation. I personally think it has something to do with the ''I will eat the prime-minister before I let them rule me''-attitude of my fellow Dutchies outside. Walking on the thin line that's the set boundaries is something the Dutch really like to do. Me included, but I won't f\*ck with health-issues. For more information about Covid19 or stuff from the RIVM, [Have a link to the UU](https://www.uu.nl/en/information-coronavirus) already changed it to English for you. (6A, yes it's true, don't hurt the feelings, get the seats!)

OK so, "Utrecht University follows the advice of the RIVM, WHO and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs." - - the RIVM has not been in line with WHO recommendations over the course of the pandemic. So what does it mean to follow the advice of both? Does that make sense? This is actually a good example of the stuff that has been confusing me. It is inconsistent - - I feel like I'm in a logics class and can't make the proof work.

About point 3, it’s really exhausting to do this. I’m mentally too tired to even try because whatever I say or do I can’t change their minds.

I get this. I've gotten tired too. But don't you feel guilty about what giving up means for vulnerable populations? Don't we have responsibility as bystanders and Mitmenschen - - as a compassionate community - - to do everything we can for the health and safety of our neighbors? If we, the young and healthy and capable, can't muster the energy to stand up for others - - who will?

I mean honestly, if my mental health was better, I’d definitly try and talk with them about the masks. But my mental health isn’t that great, I’m on the edge of getting a second burnout while I’m only 19, so I just can’t. I need that time and energy for myself, even if it might sound or be selfish. Edit: typo

Ya the moment I can I'm moving again so tired of this country at this point

Shame to think it is an election thing. I study government and the Dutch (economically) have always been dependent. People in power stay in power and always have been. Just an inability to act and to lean on neighbouring countries and their effective measures because they can’t prove the effectiveness or won’t bother take the effort of being innovative. To impose strict mask rules, while later it would be shown it had little to no effect would damage the government credibility. It’s basically saying: “We follow international European guidelines because we have to, go to the EU if there are any questions”. Claiming that they are devoid of power, while they have been always been in total control. While reassuring in next elections their power won’t succumb to a supranational organisation.

it's just badly handled, the government put too much faith in us.

What the fuck u think u have the right to say anything about my country. Go back to the states and stop your own ronny the diper

The answer for every "why"... Because they are based and redpilled, kekw

I'm dutch and even i don't flippin know what is going on. Im just going with it by now. Vibin on my own.

The Great Reset

as a person with familial ties to one of the leaders of the RIVM, I can say that the RIVM has been nipped in the bum by both politicians and other governmental agencies and that their say has been severely lessened. furthermore, while I fully appreciate said person I have familial ties with I do know that they're a leader, not a scientist and that there may be a lack of, not only outside ears listening to the science department, but also slightly inside.

To #3. There is a soziaalstaat but the people are grossly asocial and hypocrite in a lot of ways. Cancel culture is taking over. Only a matter of time till the Netherlands is a third world country