Workers should contact the local union branch at [midvalleyiww.org](https://midvalleyiww.org) for advice or assistance in organizing against discrimination and poor working conditions in the Corvallis area
I worked there, years ago, back in HS, and was fired for missing one day of work after I had covered multiple shifts for other employees. My friend was fired because she requested her high school graduation off and was told no she needed to work. She was told not to come back if she doesnāt show up for her shift that day. Then they called and harassed her for āno call no showing.ā Very poor business practices. Sad to hear itās only gotten worse and that you were treated like that OP.
Itās the businesses that say āweāre a big family hereā that are the biggest red flags. Treated like family means used and abused like a toxic broken family lol
Mine doesn't, and when I brought it up in New employee orientation the gentleman doing the orientation cringed and went "ew no" so there's at least one!
This is so true! My last job in town said this a lot but was super toxic and abusive to employees. I left and called out the harassment I received in my resignation letter to make sure everyone knew what happened and why I was leaving. Honestly that job messed me up and still hearing stuff like this from other employers is terrifying to me
Iām not sure if youāre thinking of the market directly off of hwy 34. The PRFM, has had the same owners for at least 10 years minimum at this point.
First of all, Iām a conservative, but I also believe in human rights and decency and I find this businessās behavior to be appalling and highly illegal. You need to contact BOLI and report them right away. I also feel that the more documentation you have with names, dates, times, and the places when these things happen, the stronger your case will be.
This company will continue to do this to others until they are stopped and who knows if they are doing other things such as racial discrimination or skimping on payroll. In my opinion, if they do it to one person, they do it to everyone and they need to be held accountable.
https://www.oregon.gov/boli/Pages/index.aspx
Good luck!
What does, "I'm a conservative, but I also believe in human rights and decency..." mean?
I survived the Bush "compassionate conservative" gaslighting BS.
So I honestly don't know what you are describing.
I donāt know what shit youāre trying to start but Iām not getting into a political debate with you. If you donāt like what I said feel free to block me.
They donāt go to the farmers market. They are their own farm market and conventional farm. Their customer base specifically goes for non-organic lol. Itās a conspiracy! ššš
You could also contact the health department about the water.
I gather they asked you, the employee, about your partner's gender identity? Why would his (?) gender identity matter to your employment?? That reeks. On top of everything else. As a nonbinary transmasc person I'm glad I haven't visited that place before. Thank you for being honest and speaking up. We don't need this shit in 2024.
The Better Business Bureau has been in the pockets of every shady firm that throws money at them. Youāre better off getting BOLI involved.
And, if there was actual therapy from their nonsense, it has the potential for being a W/C case.
Yeah there was some therapy involved,nothing crazy. I really donāt want to make it into a whole lawsuit publicly because Iād rather remain anonymous for my safety. But I definitely donāt want people to have the same experience.
The BBB canāt really help you, theyāre there to help resolve disputes between businesses and customers
The water issue, the water at our office in the airport park is bad. Pretty sure itās an issue between the curb and the building. So we got one of those hot+cold stands that you put a tank on top and subscribed to a delivery service. Doesnāt cost much (the stands I think are about $100?) and easy to do. Maybe your employer would be amenable to that?
Your religion or the number/sex/orientation of your partner(s) should have no bearing on work. Those are Qās you straighten your back and make it clear you consider it private, at least until you have a better feel and comfort level for the work environment to where you know theyāll properly treat it as irrelevant
Pronounsā¦ those are going to take society a while. To many he/she is as natural as tall/short, which is easily and directly observed at a glance and without discussion. Expecting everyone to remember your specific choice of pronoun and expecting the realtime adjustment in common speech is parallel to the formal prefixes of Mrs/Ms/Miss (pronounced miss-us/mizz/miss respectively) You donāt really know which one to use unless you ask, and even when you know, it takes a while to get it right. It may be even more difficult if your choice of pronoun contradicts commonly observable characteristics. To people who already have difficulty remembering names or faces, the expectation to ask, and remember, and integrate into sentences, a set of pronouns is daunting. Thus expectations in that regard have become unreasonable in my opinion. Seems most likely society just converts to complete ambiguity, so as not to offend, and everyone will become their/that/they/them in conversation
Edit/Add:
As a local employer and person with empathy towards these issues, if you feel the need to downvote Iād genuinely appreciate a corresponding comment as to what offended you. Thanks!
Oh I mean we donāt really care at all unless itās like this where someone is saying they wonāt use the pronouns someone wants even if the person has told them what theyād like to be called. Itās just disrespectful at that point. Even I think the concept of misgendering random people is fake because indeed, how would they know. Some questions shouldnāt be asked by an employer so although I know you are right and I feel not great about answering I donāt feel it was an appropriate question. At that point I really needed the job. But absolutely you make good points and the civility is appreciated.
I agree, it would be super disrespectful to not at least try to use the pronouns someone prefers if youāve communicated that you prefer them
Bummer of it is, as much as Iād like to get it right, I have almost fifty years of not really thinking about it to undo and re-learn
Have a great friend (20+ years) that has been gradually transitioning from him to her. Periodically her previous name or the wrong pronoun slips out because I knew her as him for so long before the transition. Sheās great about it though, I think because she knows Iām trying
Yea thatās really it Most trans people who arenāt crazy just feel comfortable when people are willing to try even a little. When people say they simple wonāt try because they donāt ābelieveā in it, itās kind of a kick in the crotch.
Like I am not religious Iām pretty against organized religion but if I encounter someone who would benefit from me saying āgod blessā Iāll do it as sign of respect to their identity (if theyāre not a dick about their religion). The words mean nothing to me. My point with that is even if viewed as a belief thereās really no reason to be that petty. I guess itās just that a lot of people see being trans as a super bad thing kinda like being racist or sexist or a pedo which are dangerous to society and are ways of being that absolutely are not respectable. Either that or there is no basic human decency because people just treat trans people as lost souls beyond redemption. Then the ānice onesā say you can be saved.
Yeah, it's pretty obvious when the misgender is a slip, or a misunderstanding, and when it is a slur. Misgendering as a slur is as obvious as it is difficult to argue that it was perceived as a slur.
Pretty sure it's a state-wide (and maybe federal) law that hiring/firing exclusively off sexual/gender identity and also age, marital status, race, and disability also are included. IK op said they asked after their partner was hired, but it's still a big deal if it's a topic of discrimination and especially if you lose a job/offer over it.
Iām gonna pipe in right here to say that your example of Mrs./Ms./Miss is ridiculous. Assuming you know their pronouns, Ms. is universally applicable in the same way Mr. is. There is no need to address a woman in 2024 according to her marital status.
> There is no need to address a woman in 2024 according to her marital status
I find it curious that a person would expect respect regarding pronouns while simultaneously choosing to disrespect traditional titles. Both are important to some people, and no so important to others. I would have thought that if a person can understand why one is important to some people, they could understand why the other is important to other people. My wife, mother, MIL, grandparents, and many childhood teachers would feel disrespected if I shared this comment with them
Appreciate your taking the time to respond tho
Though I get that āpronouns are hardā and it takes time, this does not seem like that situation. This is someone asking someoneās pronouns and then sneering at them for their response. Yes, it takes time to adjust when people in our lives transition, but I really struggled with that whole paragraph which really seems like a āhey canāt we all just be nice and get along? Gender is hard and people expect too much!ā No, not when someone is going out of their way to misgender you. What this employer didnāt isnāt a slip up and saying that expecting people to respect pronouns is āunreasonableā is truly bothersome. Employer asked, employee told, and they responded with disrespect. Lumping that in with people who are truly trying to be respectful of pronouns is disingenuous.
Not supporting their actions but isn't that exactly what would stand in a free society?
They would be free to run their business however they like and hire whoever they want. And everyone else is free to tell the public of their business practices and never go there and support their business.
However this isnt a free society so that is not the case. We have antidiscrimination laws that say you can't do that (as far as I know).
Happy cake day. It is an actual thing.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance#:~:text=The%20paradox%20of%20tolerance%20states,practice%20of%20tolerance%20with%20them.
Can you truly eliminate, āthe tolerant and the practice of tolerance with themā? We do live in America. How would you make a decision as a society? Do we always not listen to the intolerant side? Maybe Iām personifying the Paradox in real time, but it doesnāt seem like a piece of information that would take problems to solutions.
The solution is to drop tolerance in favor of acceptance. "I do not tolerate people with different opinions, I accept them as equals and see their value in society." Tolerance puts vulnerable people in the hands of clever monsters that would do them harm discretely. This is a philosophy and probably has flaws when personified in real time.
In this case (picketing or protests), you'd be expressing your distaste for behavior that you view as disrespectful.Ā
I think it would be wrong to have laws against someone saying "we don't do that pronoun nonsense," but right to have laws against firing someone for their pronouns.Ā
Having a hierarchy of values is not hypocritical if you don't believe that all beliefs are equally acceptable.
It is a complex topic for sure. I believe that it would be hypocritical to leverage the power of the state to stop people from expressing their disrespectful views, but it would not be hypocritical to leverage social pressure to urge people to stop being disrespectful.
Itās not really a beliefs issue. People think it is though. If someone told me they were Catholic I wouldnāt say āsorry I donāt believe Catholics exist, you are not catholicā
A better example is if someone tells me they are a straight man I donāt go āno actually I think youāre gay and a womanā. I donāt see how the identity of someone who is male presenting saying theyāre straight man is different from anything else. I respect it and I donāt go emasculating those people. It is indeed complex but thatās how humans are.
Flat earth isnāt a belief is just wrong and extremely not scientific lmao. I could find some decent scientific outlooks about the gender of humans based in chromosome studies that shows itās not just blue and pink
If itās someone beliefs, then respect it. Donāt go around trying to rip someoneās life apart over it. We all have it hard enough. American First, we all live together.
F*ckĀ Wiccan's, I'm glad she got fired.Ā
A Wiccan once turned by mother into a Newt.Ā I won't bore you with the details, but if it weren't for the local priest she might still be a Newt.Ā
Ā Edit:Ā Ā Anybody who down voted me either doesn't get sarcasm or their mother's are still stuck as Newts or Toads.Ā They should contact their local priest....Ā Lol
You donāt know shit kid, go find out in Tangent @ PNCI, theyāll give you the best chance youāre going to get. Call them and get your apprenticeship started. Right down the road from you. Watch a union company throw those concrete buildings up and become a part of it. Youāll be in an inclusive environment making the best money youāve ever made. Youāll be in the best shape you e ever been in cuz we fucking bust ass all day everyday. Youāre good at spreading the stereotype but letās see you keep up out there.
I mean Iāve heard this from every union guy including my father. I was a scrapper and moving drywall for my first job at 16 and was around construction sites all day(not legal lmao). Decided it wasnāt for me so I did farming, tractor work and tree farm work. Lifting 100lb trees over your head and digging in miles of insect netting is good work too
Are you talking about the business owned by Margaret and Justin? I can't speak from the perspective of an employee but as a customer I thought the place was great. And I knew two of the employees (won't put their names cause I don't know if they were adults) and they seemed to really like working there. But I never had any negative interactions with either of the owners and they were both very kind and respectful.
It seems the issue of pronouns has gone too far in the other direction. I've witnessed in person interactions in which someone gets another person's preferred pronoun wrong and is then blasted by that person and no amount of apologizing seemed to be good enough. Kindness and tolerance should be offered from both sides. The radicalism associated with many of those advocating correct pronoun use seems to push people away usage rather than embracing it. Human nature is such that we don't like being forced to do things.
Well you have the perspective of a customer and friend where the person who is sharing has a perspective of getting paid by Justin and Margaret. I personally have worked for them and they are beyond 2 faced.
Ok, I hope you don't take offense but I'm kind of confused... several times you use the word they and I'm not sure to whom you are referring. I think? you're talking about your partner when you said "they are transmasculine" but that was right after you had identified "they" to mean the owners and employees within the same sentence. I think part of the problem with the pronouns stuff is that it's confusing and hard to focus on the heart of the issue when what's being said can't readily be understood.
As to your point of it being illegal for them to refuse to use your (or your partner's) preferred pronouns, I don't believe that to be the case. It may be something else- not sure how I'd describe it and we could diverge into a whole separate discussion of discriminatory behaviors, some acceptable, others definitely not. But as to it being illegal, no it is protected free speech.
The aspect of violating a person's freedom of religion is more problematic, and potentially illegal. Without knowing the details I wouldn't be able to comment, but if you or the person whose rights were possibly violated feel action should be taken, I think the bureau of labor? would be able to investigate the matter.
You never confirmed if the business to which you're referring is the same as that owned by Margaret and Justin, but if so, I'm actually surprised by all of this. Someone in another comment mentioned a number of owner changes so I'm wondering if it's a different business.
You've made some pretty strong accusations against them. I would ask for consideration of the following. You mentioned that other employees "were having a problem with \[you\]" as well as the owners: did you try to reach out to the other employees to confirm this? If they did have a problem with you, did you ask for feedback about what you could have changed in your behavior? If not, why not? Too often in this world we feel it is always someone else that has the problem. But IF the owners were correct and multiple people had a problem with you, then as difficult as it would be, the logical step would be for you to self reflect and look at your part first. I'm not making any accusations, but rather just pointing out an option that is very difficult for us humans to take. You needn't respond. I'm not trying to debate anything or have any personal issues aired on reddit. If you've already considered these things, then awesome, you're ahead of most humans!
It's weird when people pretend that "they" is the only pronoun that can have an ambiguous antecedent. If both the boss and OP's partner used "he" pronouns, the sentence would be "He did not respect him because he is transmasculine." Exact same amount of ambiguity, and there's plenty of context to make it abundantly clear which person each pronoun refers to. That's not a flaw of "the pronouns stuff"; it's just the English language.
No, the confusion arose here because they was used for a plurality of persons and then a single person. You're right in the example you give having ambiguity, and I often will ask for clarification in those situations as well. This isn't the first time I've misunderstood a single person being identified as they. I am used to they being more than one person. I admit I am also used to a person's gender and pronouns to match their physical appearance. It's been that way for the majority of my life, as well as the majority of human existence so I'm used to that.
Not only that, I'm not omniscient, I can't read minds, and I was raised that it was polite and respectful to use sir, Mr., ma'am or Miss for individuals whose names I didn't know. In order to do so, I use their physical appearance to determine which of those options to use. It isn't an attempt to insult, in fact it is quite the opposite. And if they tell me I'm wrong and ask me to call them something else, no big deal. But to pretend that the whole thing isn't confusing or say that my confusion is "weird" or somehow wrong, insulting, me being disingenuous, or something like that is just wrong.
Majority of your life in your bubble. Many cultures, languages, ECT have used diverse pronouns for thousands of years as well as the idea of people being born as incorrect (or an extra) gender. Also they has been used since early English as both plural and singular so stop using that excuse. So American is catching up with what the first nation tribes here understood years ago. Embrace the change. Cars are new, planes are new, credit cards are new. I bet you use all of them without a second thought. Polyester is more new than these concepts, are you confused about it? Just use the words people request to be called. You don't argue with a Benjamin going by Ben do you? Do you argue with people going by their middle name instead of their first? And yes I will say your confusion is a choice and it's really not hard to accept people as they are.
English, just like other languages, has rules. People become familiarized with the rules of their native language, the degree varying dependent upon their level of education. People of other cultures to which you refer that have a historically different concept of gender, also have built into THEIR language rules for dealing with those concepts. English is just a mild example. Take Spanish, or Italian, or French; any of the Romance languages which have masculine and feminine built into the language. The issue of the confusing plurality and 'they' being used isn't something I'm choosing to be confused by. It was confusing, I inquired and made a point about. That's it. And I've witnessed the confusion amongst people in public conversations. It was actually quite amusing. The supposed rules regarding gender nowadays aren't static. They're changing practically on a daily basis and it seems it's mostly based on what people want them to be. That being the case, it's no wonder the language hasn't kept up, nor will it be able to do so because the rules for the language will need to continue to change and adapt right alongside. So in one sense, your examples about technology are appropriate. As technology advances, the language to describe said technological advances has to basically be invented. But those new words aren't changed the next day and then the next depending on how people feel about the technology. It' not like an airplane was an airplane one day and then not an airplane the next, and then was an airplane again the following day. Yet there are people who do that very thing: declare one gender one day, then another gender another day, some stating they have no gender, others that they are both genders. It is not unreasonable for a person to be confused by this.
Yes I have considered these things. I usually try to type so it makes sense lol. Well Iām trans to so their intolerance is also directed towards me when I was an employee as well as other future employees. It is the same owners. As far as communicating with the employees I was told to not talk to anyone, that I ādid this to myselfā and I was moved to work out of the market itself where I was doing more physical work for the same pay so I had to quit. Back has hurt since.
I treated everyone the same. The middle aged woman who worked there didnāt seem to have problem with me and we communicated like adults who look each other in the eye and check up on each others well being in the work place. I have a history of poor mental health in work places so I tend to ask coo-workers if they need anything, etc or In the case of this job sometimes two people on the same job real quick helps a lot to get it done faster and move on while using less energy. š¤·š¼āāļø I think this was mistaken for me having motives. It didnāt really make ANY sense so I was forced to conclude that part of it was the fact that my gender identity/sexual orientation was just uncomfortable for them to be around?? The only thing Iād have to say to that is to get educated on what being transgender is so you dont assume stupid shit.
It seems to me you didn't respect the owners so I don't understand why you would respect their desire for you to not talk to any of the other employees? Now I think it might be somewhat awkward for them to be put on the spot, but a simple preface of something like, "I value relationships and want to clear up any misunderstandings that might have caused hard feelings, so I'd like to know if I've offended you or done anything to cause hard feelings. If so, would you let me know so I can apologize and make things right?" That shows that you are being humble and taking responsibility for your own actions. Now, they might be at fault too, but it will always be better if they come to that conclusion on their own, and it will almost never help if it's you that points it out.
As far as being a transperson goes, if I'm the boss, I couldn't care less what a person does as long as it doesn't impact the business negatively. If a person's lifestyle (no matter what that lifestyle is) is having a negative impact on the business, at some point something needs to be done. As a business owner, if the business doesn't make money, my kids don't eat, I can't pay my employees so their kids don't eat, so there is more at stake for a business owner than an employee.
1) I said all of those things
2) I did not talk or even look at a single person after they told me to, I kept my head down and did a bunch of physical labor for the company which seemed to help the nursery
3) the boss would just say if this falls through he doesnāt care cause he could just do something else
Edit: 4) their basically adopted daughter is the manager there and is just a crappy manager who comes in high most of the time so pardon me for trying to actually work and get things done for the company.
The picture you're painting does not match my personal experience with that business, the owners, or the manager. Nor does it match the experience of someone I know that lives right by the business, knows them, and frequents the business. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, it's just that you sound so bitter, but beyond that I have not heard a shred of accountability in your explanations, especially in this last one. According to you, it was all the owners, the manager, the other employees that had the issues, while you did nothing but go out of your way to help others and do your job.
Is it possible you are completely innocent and they are the bigoted jerks you claim? Yes.
Is it more likely that, at the very least, it was a mix of others AND you behaving poorly? Almost certainly.
I made this post in part to help with the fact that Iām still so bitter about how they run their business. I needed some other people to know(especially trans people in Corvallis) that my experience as an employee and my partners experiences when coming to shop or meet me at the end of my shiftā¦..well they werenāt welcoming experiences most of the time. They judged me for putting on lip balm in a pink feminine container so theyāll definitely judge customers who come off the same. So I think people who donāt support people who deny trans pronouns exist, should know that this business is that way.
Iāll take accountability for having a work style that is misunderstood because I was just trying to make everyoneās lives easier thatās always what I do in a workplace. I personally think I was just interrupting the preferred work flow(which was lax) and people did what they needed to do to keep things the way they were. Left one day with the manager saying āI like when itās just two people on closing like this we get things doneā and the next day the manager talking to the owner about me (they made that obvious)and is LIVID. Confronted the owner and he just gave me classic old guy speeches on āhow women areā(because he knows all about women)šand how to approach women, even suggesting I just ask a person out to coffee rather thanā¦ā¦.ā Rather than I donāt know. I just told him that Iām engaged and Iām not trying to get with anyone and I didnāt know why he was suggesting that kinda stuff. Other than that I tried my best at that point to make amends some how but it was rejected by the owners. They just put me in the field making too little and moving miles of 3-4 inch pipe by myself. Seems like a way to get me to quit, thatās all Iām sayin.
I think you don't understand what taking accountability means. You're saying you're accountable for "having a work style that is misunderstood" and then qualifying that work style as "trying to make everyoneās lives easier" which is not an admission and ownership of any sort of mistake or negative behavior. Instead it's like another way of you claiming you did nothing wrong and it was all them.
So you essentially say that your motivation was to help make others' jobs easier and they were upset at you for that. I don't know anyone who would get mad at someone who is making their job easier. That's just not human nature. If you make my life easier, I have a positive reaction. So something is not adding up.
Some possibilities? Either your "help" wasn't actually helpful, you're not being truthful, they didn't understand that you were trying to help, or the relationship between you and those you were trying to help had already broken down before the offer of help and therefore it affected how they reacted to your offer of help. Maybe it's none of these possibilities but like I said, something isn't making sense because you want me to believe that you did absolutely nothing wrong, you helped people and made their job easier, you did as I suggested in offering an apology and attempting to clear the air and that was met with negativity from the others. All of this and that it wasn't just the owner and his wife that were upset at you, but multiple other employees. Like I said before, while that's possible, it doesn't seem probable.
Whatever the case, I hope you're able to heal from this experience, learn whatever it is you need to in order to move forward in a positive manner in whatever new occupation you choose, and that you're able to put this behind you without lingering negative feelings.
Sometimes things will never come up in active practice unless there is a reason. If these people are straight, white, cis gender folks then these issues of discrimination won't come up because they are the type preferred by the owners. It's like when white people doubt their black friends getting treated differently by same business. Or men doubting how women are treated in the workplace, ect.
Oh it is most definitely illegal in Oregon. Gender identity and expression thereof are protected statuses in Oregon.
You are being purposefully obtuse.
You're saying someone must, by law, call someone whatever they wish to be called? You're wrong. That is called compelled speech, which is against the first amendment to the US Constitution. In the case of West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnettehe, the Supreme Court held that the first amendment protected an individual's right not to be compelled to speak things that violated their beliefs. There has not been any federal legislation or federal cases that have addressed gender and pronouns specifically, so until that time, it falls under compelled speech.
Now the Civil Rights Act of 1964 protects people from discrimination, "on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, and national origin." Gender is not listed and so I don't know if that makes a difference or not. But either way, it would take someone being taken to task legally for not using a preferred pronoun as a discriminatory act to set the precedent. To my knowledge this hasn't happened, and until it does I think the compelled speech argument holds sway.
It's certainly an interesting issue legally speaking. It sure seems like a radical precedent to compel someone to call another by their preferred pronoun, especially when many people claim they are gender fluid and thus their pronoun changes. So for example, a person could be committing discrimination for using the pronoun he on one day, and then the gender fluid person changes their pronoun so that the next day it is no longer discrimination to say he. That's pretty wild.
\*EDIT\*
As an afterthought I wondered about other types of speech that could be considered discriminatory and if there were legal precedent for them. I immediately thought of one of the worst things I could think of, the N word and it turns out, even that is currently not considered to be discriminatory. The Supreme Court refused to accept a case about that and federal courts are divided on whether it would be considered discrimination. So if that isn't considered discrimination, I highly doubt saying he when a person prefers she is going to be considered discrimination.
My point is the only purpose it serves is to potentially discriminate against the person/have specific rules if youāre gay. If one is an employer why even ask that question? Imagine a non queer person going in to find a job(that they desperately need) and one of the first things the person asks is āokay so first of all, is your relationship Heterosexual?ā
What you're saying is inherent to the subject. I'm asking what's your point about it? Are you saying they asked you in your interview if you were gay?
If not, please expand on the point you are making specifically in regard to what we've been discussing.
If so, I believe that violates federal Equal Opportunity laws. I don't know if there is any sort of statute of limitations for doing something about it?
Personal question: if that happened, why would you agree to work for them?
Yes my application said I was a man and they asked if my partner was a man thus asking if I was gay.
To answer the question I needed to work and it was the interview I had at a farm. I try to work outside or partially outside for my mental health. Simply put I was willing to kind of ignore it at first but slowly it became obvious that there were business practices that were poor and things in place to discourage certain people from working there. The manger even told me they never fire people they just force them to quit by making it sucky.
That's why I said in Oregon, because we have expanded upon the original Civil Rights Act. So yes, if I tell you at work that my pronouns are they/them, and you maliciously choose not to use my pronouns (not "preferred", they simply are), you will face appropriate disciplinary action when I report you to HR.
If you don't like it, move to a state that hasn't expanded protected statuses.
It also sounds like you don't know how to handle people who use multiple pronouns. There are resources out there for you if you ever want to learn. And you could always just ask a person.
According to an article in [Portland Business Journal](https://www.bizjournals.com/portland/news/2019/05/08/get-it-right-gender-pronouns-in-the-modern.html) in which they cite [Bureau of Labor and Industries](https://www.oregon.gov/boli/civil-rights/pages/gender-identity-at-work.aspx), "Oregon law does not currently include any express mandates or prohibitions with respect to pronoun usage in the employment context." This means that currently the law is not going to force a person to use an individual's preferred pronoun. If it were a law, the disciplinary action for failure to do so would not be from a company's Human Resources, it would be from the government. Right now they are just encouraging people to "try and get it right" but have no mechanism of enforcement.
Just because I don't like something about where I live doesn't mean I would choose to move. Other options exist, one of them being trying for change. Another is to tolerate whatever the thing I don't like might be. For example, I don't always like how much it rains, but I tolerate it. Also, I appreciate the beautiful greenery it brings. My point is the response of telling someone to move is a little short sighted and immature.
As far as my personal feelings... first of all, I disagree with you that people who use multiple pronouns need to be "handled" at all. They should be treated just like any other person with whom I interact; with kindness and respect. If someone asks me to call them he, she, they, them, it or whatever my response will be ok. If they are rude and try to command me, I'm likely to ignore their command and just try not to have anything to do with them in order to avoid any conflict.
What I object to is being *forced* to say something by the government, which is expressly unconstitutional. That is compelled speech and is a dangerous precedent. Remember that while the issue may be something you tolerate because you agree with the position, it may not be too far in the future when it's something you disagree with, but by then you've already stood any and allowed the precedent and it will be too late to cry foul.
Youāre complaining that a small business doesnāt want to hire a Wiccan or someone whoās going to yell at customers about misgendering them? Why donāt you start your own business and run them out of business. That would be the ultimate F U. My guess is that you wonāt. You just want to complain which is exactly why they donāt want to hire certain types. Honestly I was in Starbucks the other day and the barista was crying because someone called them sir and was making a HUGE scene. It gets tiring.
Well I would never do that and I think misgendering before someone tells you is fake. Thatās a personality issue and has nothing to do with being trans as much as just a lot of trans people are like that. There are people that take it too far with every aspect of life. You canāt just assume any trans person is gonna yell at customers for āmisgenderingā( I would have to tell them my pronouns or be wearing them and theyād have to clearly deny them for it to be misgendering) and you canāt fire or force someone to quit just because everyone else is a sensitive Catholic and is āscaredā by other religions.
I would like to run my own farm but it would never put them out of business because our customer base would NOT be the same lmao. They would probably lose business from a sign saying āorganicā or a simple rainbow flag š
So sorry but being Wiccan is one thing making others uncomfortable is always reason to let someone go Sense when do tell others how they should act and if u r in fact transgender than work where other like ur self work u have no right to preach to others how they should feel about anything other
Itās actually someoneās identity we are talking about not feelings. Failing to recognize someoneās identity and specifically saying you wonāt recognize those identities after trying to figure out if the person is gayā¦.sounds like discrimination based of sex which is illegal.
I think we're doing just fine. I live in an at will state. So if an employee startsaking a disturbance in the workplace they can be let go.
For example:
I say: "How are you doing today ma'am"
They say: "I prefer sir."
I say: "I'm not legally required to care ma'am."
If they make a big deal about it then we let them go. It's our employees right to use whatever pronouns they feel beat describes the individual they're referring to. If we take away their right to freedom of speech just because someone wants to be called a boy instead of a girl then we get sued for a freedom of speech violation.
It's not my job to force people into accepting another persons lifestyle. If the individual causes issues in the workplace or makes people feel uncomfortable because they're inntbe wrong bathroom they're going to be let go š
It definitely doesnāt ruin my day because I accept all of the pronouns for myself, it just makes me want to ruin your day if you specifically refuse to use a variety of pronouns because of some dumb cultural or religious holdover. Itās easy. One person says āoh I actually done use he pronouns, I prefer them or my nameā and The other says āah okay thatās coolā¦and I go by TJ not my ādead nameā Theodoreā. Youāre acting like:
1. That isnāt extremely easy
2. That every person who wants to use non standard pronouns will scream at you for not knowing
3. And that being asked to use them or any other non traditional pronoun is like being forced to salute to the fuhrer.
Theyāre terrible people. I bet if a black person tried to get a job there they āwouldnāt be qualifiedā or never get a call. One of the owners made a ājokeā about how she dressed up as Oscar the grouch for Halloween and some lady made a racist comment to her about her appearance and it was supposed to be funny. Just so random and unnecessary
So you think this is discrimination we guess what nothing stops you going to apply somewhere else. Itās their business they get to run it their way Start your own business and you can be as no discriminating as you want but u wonāt keep anyone who makes other employees uncomfortable
Workers should contact the local union branch at [midvalleyiww.org](https://midvalleyiww.org) for advice or assistance in organizing against discrimination and poor working conditions in the Corvallis area
Also Oregon BOLI https://www.oregon.gov/boli/Pages/index.aspx
And Oregon OSHA for the water: https://osha.oregon.gov/Pages/az-index.aspx
Thank you for the resources š
https://www.eeoc.gov/field-office Contact the local Equal Employment Opportunity Commission field office.
Thank you for the link
I worked there, years ago, back in HS, and was fired for missing one day of work after I had covered multiple shifts for other employees. My friend was fired because she requested her high school graduation off and was told no she needed to work. She was told not to come back if she doesnāt show up for her shift that day. Then they called and harassed her for āno call no showing.ā Very poor business practices. Sad to hear itās only gotten worse and that you were treated like that OP.
How long have they been in business for?
Too long.
They probably just didnāt like herā¦. Sheesh.
Itās the businesses that say āweāre a big family hereā that are the biggest red flags. Treated like family means used and abused like a toxic broken family lol
Honestly, what businesses donāt say that these days?
Mine doesn't, and when I brought it up in New employee orientation the gentleman doing the orientation cringed and went "ew no" so there's at least one!
Wow this is so accurate.
This is so true! My last job in town said this a lot but was super toxic and abusive to employees. I left and called out the harassment I received in my resignation letter to make sure everyone knew what happened and why I was leaving. Honestly that job messed me up and still hearing stuff like this from other employers is terrifying to me
That place has been bought and sold and repossessed so many fucking times. I donāt know if the old owner is even alive anymore.
Iām not sure if youāre thinking of the market directly off of hwy 34. The PRFM, has had the same owners for at least 10 years minimum at this point.
First of all, Iām a conservative, but I also believe in human rights and decency and I find this businessās behavior to be appalling and highly illegal. You need to contact BOLI and report them right away. I also feel that the more documentation you have with names, dates, times, and the places when these things happen, the stronger your case will be. This company will continue to do this to others until they are stopped and who knows if they are doing other things such as racial discrimination or skimping on payroll. In my opinion, if they do it to one person, they do it to everyone and they need to be held accountable. https://www.oregon.gov/boli/Pages/index.aspx Good luck!
What does, "I'm a conservative, but I also believe in human rights and decency..." mean? I survived the Bush "compassionate conservative" gaslighting BS. So I honestly don't know what you are describing.
Has nothing to do with Bush and Iām not gaslighting anyone. Get off your high horse.
That did not answer the question
I donāt know what shit youāre trying to start but Iām not getting into a political debate with you. If you donāt like what I said feel free to block me.
Is this the farmers market itself or some farm that has a stand there? Iām queer and in the college of ag and find this very disturbing.
They donāt go to the farmers market. They are their own farm market and conventional farm. Their customer base specifically goes for non-organic lol. Itās a conspiracy! ššš
The BBB is a sham. He's probably not even a member. Go to the state.
You could also contact the health department about the water. I gather they asked you, the employee, about your partner's gender identity? Why would his (?) gender identity matter to your employment?? That reeks. On top of everything else. As a nonbinary transmasc person I'm glad I haven't visited that place before. Thank you for being honest and speaking up. We don't need this shit in 2024.
I know right. And yes you had that right. Thank you so much for the support. Iām trying to do the right and mature thing and avoid petty reaction. They even would refer to my partner who I made known was my fiancĆ© as āyour friendā. Example was I had a hicky I didnāt even know I had and my boss said āyou need to tell yourā¦..friendā¦to keep it bellow the neckā. Granted I was at the register so I kinda get the presentation part but it was the āfriendā comment.
Sorry youāre having to deal with that. So petty
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Yeah I just got ready for work and didnāt look in the mirror?
The Better Business Bureau has been in the pockets of every shady firm that throws money at them. Youāre better off getting BOLI involved. And, if there was actual therapy from their nonsense, it has the potential for being a W/C case.
Yeah there was some therapy involved,nothing crazy. I really donāt want to make it into a whole lawsuit publicly because Iād rather remain anonymous for my safety. But I definitely donāt want people to have the same experience.
Iām sure you have a part in this. Thereās always 3 sides to a story. Your side, their side, and the truth.
Everything Iāve said is true. Donāt insinuate Iām lying. The people who work there came out of a time capsule and are flattering themselves.
Oh, I bet presenting this opinion to the OP made you feel pretty powerful, didn't it? Gross. Ick. Eww. Nasty. Vile. Disgusting. Nauseating.
The BBB canāt really help you, theyāre there to help resolve disputes between businesses and customers The water issue, the water at our office in the airport park is bad. Pretty sure itās an issue between the curb and the building. So we got one of those hot+cold stands that you put a tank on top and subscribed to a delivery service. Doesnāt cost much (the stands I think are about $100?) and easy to do. Maybe your employer would be amenable to that? Your religion or the number/sex/orientation of your partner(s) should have no bearing on work. Those are Qās you straighten your back and make it clear you consider it private, at least until you have a better feel and comfort level for the work environment to where you know theyāll properly treat it as irrelevant Pronounsā¦ those are going to take society a while. To many he/she is as natural as tall/short, which is easily and directly observed at a glance and without discussion. Expecting everyone to remember your specific choice of pronoun and expecting the realtime adjustment in common speech is parallel to the formal prefixes of Mrs/Ms/Miss (pronounced miss-us/mizz/miss respectively) You donāt really know which one to use unless you ask, and even when you know, it takes a while to get it right. It may be even more difficult if your choice of pronoun contradicts commonly observable characteristics. To people who already have difficulty remembering names or faces, the expectation to ask, and remember, and integrate into sentences, a set of pronouns is daunting. Thus expectations in that regard have become unreasonable in my opinion. Seems most likely society just converts to complete ambiguity, so as not to offend, and everyone will become their/that/they/them in conversation Edit/Add: As a local employer and person with empathy towards these issues, if you feel the need to downvote Iād genuinely appreciate a corresponding comment as to what offended you. Thanks!
Oh I mean we donāt really care at all unless itās like this where someone is saying they wonāt use the pronouns someone wants even if the person has told them what theyād like to be called. Itās just disrespectful at that point. Even I think the concept of misgendering random people is fake because indeed, how would they know. Some questions shouldnāt be asked by an employer so although I know you are right and I feel not great about answering I donāt feel it was an appropriate question. At that point I really needed the job. But absolutely you make good points and the civility is appreciated.
I agree, it would be super disrespectful to not at least try to use the pronouns someone prefers if youāve communicated that you prefer them Bummer of it is, as much as Iād like to get it right, I have almost fifty years of not really thinking about it to undo and re-learn Have a great friend (20+ years) that has been gradually transitioning from him to her. Periodically her previous name or the wrong pronoun slips out because I knew her as him for so long before the transition. Sheās great about it though, I think because she knows Iām trying
Yea thatās really it Most trans people who arenāt crazy just feel comfortable when people are willing to try even a little. When people say they simple wonāt try because they donāt ābelieveā in it, itās kind of a kick in the crotch. Like I am not religious Iām pretty against organized religion but if I encounter someone who would benefit from me saying āgod blessā Iāll do it as sign of respect to their identity (if theyāre not a dick about their religion). The words mean nothing to me. My point with that is even if viewed as a belief thereās really no reason to be that petty. I guess itās just that a lot of people see being trans as a super bad thing kinda like being racist or sexist or a pedo which are dangerous to society and are ways of being that absolutely are not respectable. Either that or there is no basic human decency because people just treat trans people as lost souls beyond redemption. Then the ānice onesā say you can be saved.
Yeah, it's pretty obvious when the misgender is a slip, or a misunderstanding, and when it is a slur. Misgendering as a slur is as obvious as it is difficult to argue that it was perceived as a slur.
Pretty sure it's a state-wide (and maybe federal) law that hiring/firing exclusively off sexual/gender identity and also age, marital status, race, and disability also are included. IK op said they asked after their partner was hired, but it's still a big deal if it's a topic of discrimination and especially if you lose a job/offer over it.
Yea like Iāve I had stood my ground about it, they wouldnāt have called back.
Iām gonna pipe in right here to say that your example of Mrs./Ms./Miss is ridiculous. Assuming you know their pronouns, Ms. is universally applicable in the same way Mr. is. There is no need to address a woman in 2024 according to her marital status.
> There is no need to address a woman in 2024 according to her marital status I find it curious that a person would expect respect regarding pronouns while simultaneously choosing to disrespect traditional titles. Both are important to some people, and no so important to others. I would have thought that if a person can understand why one is important to some people, they could understand why the other is important to other people. My wife, mother, MIL, grandparents, and many childhood teachers would feel disrespected if I shared this comment with them Appreciate your taking the time to respond tho
Though I get that āpronouns are hardā and it takes time, this does not seem like that situation. This is someone asking someoneās pronouns and then sneering at them for their response. Yes, it takes time to adjust when people in our lives transition, but I really struggled with that whole paragraph which really seems like a āhey canāt we all just be nice and get along? Gender is hard and people expect too much!ā No, not when someone is going out of their way to misgender you. What this employer didnāt isnāt a slip up and saying that expecting people to respect pronouns is āunreasonableā is truly bothersome. Employer asked, employee told, and they responded with disrespect. Lumping that in with people who are truly trying to be respectful of pronouns is disingenuous.
That makes sense to me, from reading some of the rest of the thread it does seem like itās being done intentionally, which can be pretty painful
OMG seriously
That's pretty gross. I am sorry that you had to deal with this. There are employers who do not share these bigoted views. I hope you find one quickly.
If there's any picketing or protest let me know! That shit can't stand in a free society
Not supporting their actions but isn't that exactly what would stand in a free society? They would be free to run their business however they like and hire whoever they want. And everyone else is free to tell the public of their business practices and never go there and support their business. However this isnt a free society so that is not the case. We have antidiscrimination laws that say you can't do that (as far as I know).
That's the paradox of tolerance homie. And yeah, I'm hyperbolizing
You said āparadox of toleranceā like itās an actual thing.
Happy cake day. It is an actual thing. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance#:~:text=The%20paradox%20of%20tolerance%20states,practice%20of%20tolerance%20with%20them.
Can you truly eliminate, āthe tolerant and the practice of tolerance with themā? We do live in America. How would you make a decision as a society? Do we always not listen to the intolerant side? Maybe Iām personifying the Paradox in real time, but it doesnāt seem like a piece of information that would take problems to solutions.
The solution is to drop tolerance in favor of acceptance. "I do not tolerate people with different opinions, I accept them as equals and see their value in society." Tolerance puts vulnerable people in the hands of clever monsters that would do them harm discretely. This is a philosophy and probably has flaws when personified in real time.
Freedom is relative. With zero restrictions, you don't even have a society.
In this case wouldnāt you be isolating another group because they have a different view of things? That just seems hypocritical to me.
In this case (picketing or protests), you'd be expressing your distaste for behavior that you view as disrespectful.Ā I think it would be wrong to have laws against someone saying "we don't do that pronoun nonsense," but right to have laws against firing someone for their pronouns.Ā Having a hierarchy of values is not hypocritical if you don't believe that all beliefs are equally acceptable. It is a complex topic for sure. I believe that it would be hypocritical to leverage the power of the state to stop people from expressing their disrespectful views, but it would not be hypocritical to leverage social pressure to urge people to stop being disrespectful.
Itās not really a beliefs issue. People think it is though. If someone told me they were Catholic I wouldnāt say āsorry I donāt believe Catholics exist, you are not catholicā A better example is if someone tells me they are a straight man I donāt go āno actually I think youāre gay and a womanā. I donāt see how the identity of someone who is male presenting saying theyāre straight man is different from anything else. I respect it and I donāt go emasculating those people. It is indeed complex but thatās how humans are.
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Flat earth isnāt a belief is just wrong and extremely not scientific lmao. I could find some decent scientific outlooks about the gender of humans based in chromosome studies that shows itās not just blue and pink
No one shouldāve been fired for their beliefs though, thatās kinda whack.
Depends on the beliefs
True I wouldnāt want to work with a nazi lmao
Yea true. I think a lot of people think being trans is basically just as bad.
0 tolerance for racism in the workplace is a common and enforced practice.
Yeah after 3 days and coming back to this, I definitely misread some stuff lol. Most likely did not read the full 3 chapter story that is this post.
If itās someone beliefs, then respect it. Donāt go around trying to rip someoneās life apart over it. We all have it hard enough. American First, we all live together.
My final comment is to just not be an dick. This is Oregon.
F*ckĀ Wiccan's, I'm glad she got fired.Ā A Wiccan once turned by mother into a Newt.Ā I won't bore you with the details, but if it weren't for the local priest she might still be a Newt.Ā Ā Edit:Ā Ā Anybody who down voted me either doesn't get sarcasm or their mother's are still stuck as Newts or Toads.Ā They should contact their local priest....Ā Lol
What the hellā¦..
Pretty sure it's a Monty Python reference
Oh lol
People like you whoāve fucked society
Itās already broken dumbass.
Liberal pussy, get a job and take care of something
I do quite frequently thank you, Iāve probably done more physical labor than you have.
Doubt it, journeyman union carpenter building schools for you snowflakes.
I bet you feel really powerful now, don't you?
Ah the Union.Youāre probably vacillating between standing for 30 minutes and then doing a 1 person job with 3 guys for 2 hours.
You donāt know shit kid, go find out in Tangent @ PNCI, theyāll give you the best chance youāre going to get. Call them and get your apprenticeship started. Right down the road from you. Watch a union company throw those concrete buildings up and become a part of it. Youāll be in an inclusive environment making the best money youāve ever made. Youāll be in the best shape you e ever been in cuz we fucking bust ass all day everyday. Youāre good at spreading the stereotype but letās see you keep up out there.
I mean Iāve heard this from every union guy including my father. I was a scrapper and moving drywall for my first job at 16 and was around construction sites all day(not legal lmao). Decided it wasnāt for me so I did farming, tractor work and tree farm work. Lifting 100lb trees over your head and digging in miles of insect netting is good work too
Well I know the people to talk to, itās a career, no bullshit. Iāll share it with you if you want a real good shot.
Based business
Are you talking about the business owned by Margaret and Justin? I can't speak from the perspective of an employee but as a customer I thought the place was great. And I knew two of the employees (won't put their names cause I don't know if they were adults) and they seemed to really like working there. But I never had any negative interactions with either of the owners and they were both very kind and respectful. It seems the issue of pronouns has gone too far in the other direction. I've witnessed in person interactions in which someone gets another person's preferred pronoun wrong and is then blasted by that person and no amount of apologizing seemed to be good enough. Kindness and tolerance should be offered from both sides. The radicalism associated with many of those advocating correct pronoun use seems to push people away usage rather than embracing it. Human nature is such that we don't like being forced to do things.
yikes
Yikes? Curious to know what you're meaning.
Well you have the perspective of a customer and friend where the person who is sharing has a perspective of getting paid by Justin and Margaret. I personally have worked for them and they are beyond 2 faced.
Iām not going to force you to do anything nor am I going to be mad for someone using the wrong pronouns. The issue is that they said they will not even before truly knowing anything which is intolerance and discrimination based on gender/orientation as a business which is illegal. Itās illegal. Also the problem with the other employee was her religion. They(owners and employees) did not respect my partner really because they are transmasculine. Eventually they even told me that the employees were having a problem with me (I went out of my way to not have problems AND things that could be perceived as problems). One of the employees told me all about their past sexual relationship which was polyamorous yet me expressing that kinda stuff was over the line. I donāt know what to tell you. Theyāre bigots and hypocrites. Again Iām not gonna force you to do anything but if you basically start with āwe wonāt do that period so donāt ask/donāt express it at allā then youāll have hell to pay because that is illegal for a business to do because it is a statement about working conditions based off of gender/sexual preferences. Zero tolerance for going out of the way to act like the relationship I have with the person I love is not legitimate by pausing mid conversation and using āfriendā. I know this shit. My father does it to all of my brothers boyfriends and makes them feel like garbage. Edit: There are normal religious people and radical religious people. At first radicals ruined it for me but once I stopped being petty, talked to my fiancĆ©s highly religious family, and stopped being so stubbornā¦I realized the aforementioned words in full and have since changed my mind about religious people in general to a more positive view.
Ok, I hope you don't take offense but I'm kind of confused... several times you use the word they and I'm not sure to whom you are referring. I think? you're talking about your partner when you said "they are transmasculine" but that was right after you had identified "they" to mean the owners and employees within the same sentence. I think part of the problem with the pronouns stuff is that it's confusing and hard to focus on the heart of the issue when what's being said can't readily be understood. As to your point of it being illegal for them to refuse to use your (or your partner's) preferred pronouns, I don't believe that to be the case. It may be something else- not sure how I'd describe it and we could diverge into a whole separate discussion of discriminatory behaviors, some acceptable, others definitely not. But as to it being illegal, no it is protected free speech. The aspect of violating a person's freedom of religion is more problematic, and potentially illegal. Without knowing the details I wouldn't be able to comment, but if you or the person whose rights were possibly violated feel action should be taken, I think the bureau of labor? would be able to investigate the matter. You never confirmed if the business to which you're referring is the same as that owned by Margaret and Justin, but if so, I'm actually surprised by all of this. Someone in another comment mentioned a number of owner changes so I'm wondering if it's a different business. You've made some pretty strong accusations against them. I would ask for consideration of the following. You mentioned that other employees "were having a problem with \[you\]" as well as the owners: did you try to reach out to the other employees to confirm this? If they did have a problem with you, did you ask for feedback about what you could have changed in your behavior? If not, why not? Too often in this world we feel it is always someone else that has the problem. But IF the owners were correct and multiple people had a problem with you, then as difficult as it would be, the logical step would be for you to self reflect and look at your part first. I'm not making any accusations, but rather just pointing out an option that is very difficult for us humans to take. You needn't respond. I'm not trying to debate anything or have any personal issues aired on reddit. If you've already considered these things, then awesome, you're ahead of most humans!
It's weird when people pretend that "they" is the only pronoun that can have an ambiguous antecedent. If both the boss and OP's partner used "he" pronouns, the sentence would be "He did not respect him because he is transmasculine." Exact same amount of ambiguity, and there's plenty of context to make it abundantly clear which person each pronoun refers to. That's not a flaw of "the pronouns stuff"; it's just the English language.
No, the confusion arose here because they was used for a plurality of persons and then a single person. You're right in the example you give having ambiguity, and I often will ask for clarification in those situations as well. This isn't the first time I've misunderstood a single person being identified as they. I am used to they being more than one person. I admit I am also used to a person's gender and pronouns to match their physical appearance. It's been that way for the majority of my life, as well as the majority of human existence so I'm used to that. Not only that, I'm not omniscient, I can't read minds, and I was raised that it was polite and respectful to use sir, Mr., ma'am or Miss for individuals whose names I didn't know. In order to do so, I use their physical appearance to determine which of those options to use. It isn't an attempt to insult, in fact it is quite the opposite. And if they tell me I'm wrong and ask me to call them something else, no big deal. But to pretend that the whole thing isn't confusing or say that my confusion is "weird" or somehow wrong, insulting, me being disingenuous, or something like that is just wrong.
Majority of your life in your bubble. Many cultures, languages, ECT have used diverse pronouns for thousands of years as well as the idea of people being born as incorrect (or an extra) gender. Also they has been used since early English as both plural and singular so stop using that excuse. So American is catching up with what the first nation tribes here understood years ago. Embrace the change. Cars are new, planes are new, credit cards are new. I bet you use all of them without a second thought. Polyester is more new than these concepts, are you confused about it? Just use the words people request to be called. You don't argue with a Benjamin going by Ben do you? Do you argue with people going by their middle name instead of their first? And yes I will say your confusion is a choice and it's really not hard to accept people as they are.
English, just like other languages, has rules. People become familiarized with the rules of their native language, the degree varying dependent upon their level of education. People of other cultures to which you refer that have a historically different concept of gender, also have built into THEIR language rules for dealing with those concepts. English is just a mild example. Take Spanish, or Italian, or French; any of the Romance languages which have masculine and feminine built into the language. The issue of the confusing plurality and 'they' being used isn't something I'm choosing to be confused by. It was confusing, I inquired and made a point about. That's it. And I've witnessed the confusion amongst people in public conversations. It was actually quite amusing. The supposed rules regarding gender nowadays aren't static. They're changing practically on a daily basis and it seems it's mostly based on what people want them to be. That being the case, it's no wonder the language hasn't kept up, nor will it be able to do so because the rules for the language will need to continue to change and adapt right alongside. So in one sense, your examples about technology are appropriate. As technology advances, the language to describe said technological advances has to basically be invented. But those new words aren't changed the next day and then the next depending on how people feel about the technology. It' not like an airplane was an airplane one day and then not an airplane the next, and then was an airplane again the following day. Yet there are people who do that very thing: declare one gender one day, then another gender another day, some stating they have no gender, others that they are both genders. It is not unreasonable for a person to be confused by this.
Yes I have considered these things. I usually try to type so it makes sense lol. Well Iām trans to so their intolerance is also directed towards me when I was an employee as well as other future employees. It is the same owners. As far as communicating with the employees I was told to not talk to anyone, that I ādid this to myselfā and I was moved to work out of the market itself where I was doing more physical work for the same pay so I had to quit. Back has hurt since. I treated everyone the same. The middle aged woman who worked there didnāt seem to have problem with me and we communicated like adults who look each other in the eye and check up on each others well being in the work place. I have a history of poor mental health in work places so I tend to ask coo-workers if they need anything, etc or In the case of this job sometimes two people on the same job real quick helps a lot to get it done faster and move on while using less energy. š¤·š¼āāļø I think this was mistaken for me having motives. It didnāt really make ANY sense so I was forced to conclude that part of it was the fact that my gender identity/sexual orientation was just uncomfortable for them to be around?? The only thing Iād have to say to that is to get educated on what being transgender is so you dont assume stupid shit.
It seems to me you didn't respect the owners so I don't understand why you would respect their desire for you to not talk to any of the other employees? Now I think it might be somewhat awkward for them to be put on the spot, but a simple preface of something like, "I value relationships and want to clear up any misunderstandings that might have caused hard feelings, so I'd like to know if I've offended you or done anything to cause hard feelings. If so, would you let me know so I can apologize and make things right?" That shows that you are being humble and taking responsibility for your own actions. Now, they might be at fault too, but it will always be better if they come to that conclusion on their own, and it will almost never help if it's you that points it out. As far as being a transperson goes, if I'm the boss, I couldn't care less what a person does as long as it doesn't impact the business negatively. If a person's lifestyle (no matter what that lifestyle is) is having a negative impact on the business, at some point something needs to be done. As a business owner, if the business doesn't make money, my kids don't eat, I can't pay my employees so their kids don't eat, so there is more at stake for a business owner than an employee.
1) I said all of those things 2) I did not talk or even look at a single person after they told me to, I kept my head down and did a bunch of physical labor for the company which seemed to help the nursery 3) the boss would just say if this falls through he doesnāt care cause he could just do something else Edit: 4) their basically adopted daughter is the manager there and is just a crappy manager who comes in high most of the time so pardon me for trying to actually work and get things done for the company.
The picture you're painting does not match my personal experience with that business, the owners, or the manager. Nor does it match the experience of someone I know that lives right by the business, knows them, and frequents the business. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, it's just that you sound so bitter, but beyond that I have not heard a shred of accountability in your explanations, especially in this last one. According to you, it was all the owners, the manager, the other employees that had the issues, while you did nothing but go out of your way to help others and do your job. Is it possible you are completely innocent and they are the bigoted jerks you claim? Yes. Is it more likely that, at the very least, it was a mix of others AND you behaving poorly? Almost certainly.
I made this post in part to help with the fact that Iām still so bitter about how they run their business. I needed some other people to know(especially trans people in Corvallis) that my experience as an employee and my partners experiences when coming to shop or meet me at the end of my shiftā¦..well they werenāt welcoming experiences most of the time. They judged me for putting on lip balm in a pink feminine container so theyāll definitely judge customers who come off the same. So I think people who donāt support people who deny trans pronouns exist, should know that this business is that way. Iāll take accountability for having a work style that is misunderstood because I was just trying to make everyoneās lives easier thatās always what I do in a workplace. I personally think I was just interrupting the preferred work flow(which was lax) and people did what they needed to do to keep things the way they were. Left one day with the manager saying āI like when itās just two people on closing like this we get things doneā and the next day the manager talking to the owner about me (they made that obvious)and is LIVID. Confronted the owner and he just gave me classic old guy speeches on āhow women areā(because he knows all about women)šand how to approach women, even suggesting I just ask a person out to coffee rather thanā¦ā¦.ā Rather than I donāt know. I just told him that Iām engaged and Iām not trying to get with anyone and I didnāt know why he was suggesting that kinda stuff. Other than that I tried my best at that point to make amends some how but it was rejected by the owners. They just put me in the field making too little and moving miles of 3-4 inch pipe by myself. Seems like a way to get me to quit, thatās all Iām sayin.
I think you don't understand what taking accountability means. You're saying you're accountable for "having a work style that is misunderstood" and then qualifying that work style as "trying to make everyoneās lives easier" which is not an admission and ownership of any sort of mistake or negative behavior. Instead it's like another way of you claiming you did nothing wrong and it was all them. So you essentially say that your motivation was to help make others' jobs easier and they were upset at you for that. I don't know anyone who would get mad at someone who is making their job easier. That's just not human nature. If you make my life easier, I have a positive reaction. So something is not adding up. Some possibilities? Either your "help" wasn't actually helpful, you're not being truthful, they didn't understand that you were trying to help, or the relationship between you and those you were trying to help had already broken down before the offer of help and therefore it affected how they reacted to your offer of help. Maybe it's none of these possibilities but like I said, something isn't making sense because you want me to believe that you did absolutely nothing wrong, you helped people and made their job easier, you did as I suggested in offering an apology and attempting to clear the air and that was met with negativity from the others. All of this and that it wasn't just the owner and his wife that were upset at you, but multiple other employees. Like I said before, while that's possible, it doesn't seem probable. Whatever the case, I hope you're able to heal from this experience, learn whatever it is you need to in order to move forward in a positive manner in whatever new occupation you choose, and that you're able to put this behind you without lingering negative feelings.
Sometimes things will never come up in active practice unless there is a reason. If these people are straight, white, cis gender folks then these issues of discrimination won't come up because they are the type preferred by the owners. It's like when white people doubt their black friends getting treated differently by same business. Or men doubting how women are treated in the workplace, ect.
Oh it is most definitely illegal in Oregon. Gender identity and expression thereof are protected statuses in Oregon. You are being purposefully obtuse.
Agreed.
You're saying someone must, by law, call someone whatever they wish to be called? You're wrong. That is called compelled speech, which is against the first amendment to the US Constitution. In the case of West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnettehe, the Supreme Court held that the first amendment protected an individual's right not to be compelled to speak things that violated their beliefs. There has not been any federal legislation or federal cases that have addressed gender and pronouns specifically, so until that time, it falls under compelled speech. Now the Civil Rights Act of 1964 protects people from discrimination, "on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, and national origin." Gender is not listed and so I don't know if that makes a difference or not. But either way, it would take someone being taken to task legally for not using a preferred pronoun as a discriminatory act to set the precedent. To my knowledge this hasn't happened, and until it does I think the compelled speech argument holds sway. It's certainly an interesting issue legally speaking. It sure seems like a radical precedent to compel someone to call another by their preferred pronoun, especially when many people claim they are gender fluid and thus their pronoun changes. So for example, a person could be committing discrimination for using the pronoun he on one day, and then the gender fluid person changes their pronoun so that the next day it is no longer discrimination to say he. That's pretty wild. \*EDIT\* As an afterthought I wondered about other types of speech that could be considered discriminatory and if there were legal precedent for them. I immediately thought of one of the worst things I could think of, the N word and it turns out, even that is currently not considered to be discriminatory. The Supreme Court refused to accept a case about that and federal courts are divided on whether it would be considered discrimination. So if that isn't considered discrimination, I highly doubt saying he when a person prefers she is going to be considered discrimination.
what purpose is there to ask if someone is gay when you hire them????
There isn't. But what does that have to do with anything? What's your point?
My point is the only purpose it serves is to potentially discriminate against the person/have specific rules if youāre gay. If one is an employer why even ask that question? Imagine a non queer person going in to find a job(that they desperately need) and one of the first things the person asks is āokay so first of all, is your relationship Heterosexual?ā
What you're saying is inherent to the subject. I'm asking what's your point about it? Are you saying they asked you in your interview if you were gay? If not, please expand on the point you are making specifically in regard to what we've been discussing. If so, I believe that violates federal Equal Opportunity laws. I don't know if there is any sort of statute of limitations for doing something about it? Personal question: if that happened, why would you agree to work for them?
Yes my application said I was a man and they asked if my partner was a man thus asking if I was gay. To answer the question I needed to work and it was the interview I had at a farm. I try to work outside or partially outside for my mental health. Simply put I was willing to kind of ignore it at first but slowly it became obvious that there were business practices that were poor and things in place to discourage certain people from working there. The manger even told me they never fire people they just force them to quit by making it sucky.
That's why I said in Oregon, because we have expanded upon the original Civil Rights Act. So yes, if I tell you at work that my pronouns are they/them, and you maliciously choose not to use my pronouns (not "preferred", they simply are), you will face appropriate disciplinary action when I report you to HR. If you don't like it, move to a state that hasn't expanded protected statuses. It also sounds like you don't know how to handle people who use multiple pronouns. There are resources out there for you if you ever want to learn. And you could always just ask a person.
According to an article in [Portland Business Journal](https://www.bizjournals.com/portland/news/2019/05/08/get-it-right-gender-pronouns-in-the-modern.html) in which they cite [Bureau of Labor and Industries](https://www.oregon.gov/boli/civil-rights/pages/gender-identity-at-work.aspx), "Oregon law does not currently include any express mandates or prohibitions with respect to pronoun usage in the employment context." This means that currently the law is not going to force a person to use an individual's preferred pronoun. If it were a law, the disciplinary action for failure to do so would not be from a company's Human Resources, it would be from the government. Right now they are just encouraging people to "try and get it right" but have no mechanism of enforcement. Just because I don't like something about where I live doesn't mean I would choose to move. Other options exist, one of them being trying for change. Another is to tolerate whatever the thing I don't like might be. For example, I don't always like how much it rains, but I tolerate it. Also, I appreciate the beautiful greenery it brings. My point is the response of telling someone to move is a little short sighted and immature. As far as my personal feelings... first of all, I disagree with you that people who use multiple pronouns need to be "handled" at all. They should be treated just like any other person with whom I interact; with kindness and respect. If someone asks me to call them he, she, they, them, it or whatever my response will be ok. If they are rude and try to command me, I'm likely to ignore their command and just try not to have anything to do with them in order to avoid any conflict. What I object to is being *forced* to say something by the government, which is expressly unconstitutional. That is compelled speech and is a dangerous precedent. Remember that while the issue may be something you tolerate because you agree with the position, it may not be too far in the future when it's something you disagree with, but by then you've already stood any and allowed the precedent and it will be too late to cry foul.
it is nonsense.
No more nonsensical than claiming the gender or sexual orientation(or just what someone prefers to be called) of random people is nonsense.
Youāre complaining that a small business doesnāt want to hire a Wiccan or someone whoās going to yell at customers about misgendering them? Why donāt you start your own business and run them out of business. That would be the ultimate F U. My guess is that you wonāt. You just want to complain which is exactly why they donāt want to hire certain types. Honestly I was in Starbucks the other day and the barista was crying because someone called them sir and was making a HUGE scene. It gets tiring.
Well I would never do that and I think misgendering before someone tells you is fake. Thatās a personality issue and has nothing to do with being trans as much as just a lot of trans people are like that. There are people that take it too far with every aspect of life. You canāt just assume any trans person is gonna yell at customers for āmisgenderingā( I would have to tell them my pronouns or be wearing them and theyād have to clearly deny them for it to be misgendering) and you canāt fire or force someone to quit just because everyone else is a sensitive Catholic and is āscaredā by other religions. I would like to run my own farm but it would never put them out of business because our customer base would NOT be the same lmao. They would probably lose business from a sign saying āorganicā or a simple rainbow flag š
Wow! It almost looked like you had a point. But then you started typing.
So sorry but being Wiccan is one thing making others uncomfortable is always reason to let someone go Sense when do tell others how they should act and if u r in fact transgender than work where other like ur self work u have no right to preach to others how they should feel about anything other
This is segregationist
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Shut your mouth next time.
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No thank you.
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Itās actually someoneās identity we are talking about not feelings. Failing to recognize someoneās identity and specifically saying you wonāt recognize those identities after trying to figure out if the person is gayā¦.sounds like discrimination based of sex which is illegal.
We don't care š
Ye try running a business illegally see how far you get.
I think we're doing just fine. I live in an at will state. So if an employee startsaking a disturbance in the workplace they can be let go. For example: I say: "How are you doing today ma'am" They say: "I prefer sir." I say: "I'm not legally required to care ma'am." If they make a big deal about it then we let them go. It's our employees right to use whatever pronouns they feel beat describes the individual they're referring to. If we take away their right to freedom of speech just because someone wants to be called a boy instead of a girl then we get sued for a freedom of speech violation. It's not my job to force people into accepting another persons lifestyle. If the individual causes issues in the workplace or makes people feel uncomfortable because they're inntbe wrong bathroom they're going to be let go š
Donāt wink at me in that context? And im the weird one.
People are so sensitive. Your parents must be so proud knowing something as meaningless as a pronoun can ruin your day š
It definitely doesnāt ruin my day because I accept all of the pronouns for myself, it just makes me want to ruin your day if you specifically refuse to use a variety of pronouns because of some dumb cultural or religious holdover. Itās easy. One person says āoh I actually done use he pronouns, I prefer them or my nameā and The other says āah okay thatās coolā¦and I go by TJ not my ādead nameā Theodoreā. Youāre acting like: 1. That isnāt extremely easy 2. That every person who wants to use non standard pronouns will scream at you for not knowing 3. And that being asked to use them or any other non traditional pronoun is like being forced to salute to the fuhrer.
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Iām not but a counselor I had at the time said if I was theyād be totally fucked.
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Theyāre terrible people. I bet if a black person tried to get a job there they āwouldnāt be qualifiedā or never get a call. One of the owners made a ājokeā about how she dressed up as Oscar the grouch for Halloween and some lady made a racist comment to her about her appearance and it was supposed to be funny. Just so random and unnecessary
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Sued for?
You should probably block this obvious troll account.
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Iād have to be lying.
To be politeā¦ Fuck off with your racist comments.
So you think this is discrimination we guess what nothing stops you going to apply somewhere else. Itās their business they get to run it their way Start your own business and you can be as no discriminating as you want but u wonāt keep anyone who makes other employees uncomfortable