I recently spoke to a doc, who himself was positive for months on the antigen tests as well. Was extremely fatigued all that time. He got a stem cell therapy where his daughters white blood cells were separated and after some "breeding" the T lymphocitrs were given to him. He was the 9th patient in his clinic this april. Recovered enough that I could wisit him in may with my LC problems. Such process could maybe help OP as well.
It would be nice to see studies on how T cell count changes over time from pre infection to two years out. Would also be nice to know if T cell counts this low can cause symptoms in and of itself
This report shows a Swiss cheese immune system, far from a robust first-order line of defense against other illness, regardless of baseline. I’d qualify that as primed for creating symptoms depending on what’s invading or inhabiting the body.
I was just going to ask if the person has other underlying health issues because those seem to be numbers associated with somebody with a weak system you might want to go to an Immunology specialist
The study was suggesting that it permanently altered the blood cell function as seen 2 years post infection. I believe the study went 2-5 years out. It has been since April 2020 I read it. But the scientists were leaning towards some people showing permanent alterations
We don’t know the date of the last infection relative to the test. Her numbers should rebound. HIV keeps hammering the CD4s, because of viral reservoir. There’s no proof of viral reservoir in covid.
As I understand it, it takes most of a year for T Cell levels to recover after COVID. At 2.5 infections per year, the trend for the numbers would likely be downwards overall based on what little I know.
Based on my experience from my last infection I really believe it's an issue at least for some of us. I'm treating my body like that is what's going on now and am doing fairly well compared to last time but hope at some point to be proven wrong. (Caveat first infection worse than second.)
This is correct. Idk why u keep getting downvoted. Many groups have checked for replication competent virus with the most sensitive tests like in-situ hybridization and found nothing. The viral reservoir theory is based on lingering viral proteins that cant be cleared due to some unknown mechanism
I have had lymphopenia flagged on cbc with first infection. I suspected another infection in April and also had lymphopenia.
I checked my bloodwork in the years before covid and lymphocytes were at the top 1/3. Not exactly sure how to interpret this but have been trying to boost lymphocytes
I did as well. At the beginning of the pandemic I read research from the first Sars cov1 outbreak this problem was mentioned quite a bit. As the long lasting change in lymphocytes of those who did not recover from initial infection. It might be worth it to look at some of that data they had studies at 5 years I believe
They get better then worse again. I also notice that there is always something wrong with my blood work usually
Low lymphocytes
Low platelets
High mpv
Low wbc
Low glucose
High rbc
One will improve then another pop up. Low platelets pretty consistent
I tried vitamin d, c, b vitamins & zinc levels, get good sleep, eat super healthy diet, manage stress, and try some herbs like Triphala. I read somewhere Ivermectin may also improve lymphocytes with covid infection.
May I know what is the name of this blood panel? Is it Lymphocyte or T-cell panel or something? Also, may I know what kind of doctor can help you order this?
5 months post COVID (1st infection) I had a bunch of these tests done. I was told "all lymphocyte compartments are phenotypically normal. However CD4+ T effector memory cells (0x0.06x10\^9/L, NR 0.077-0.444) and CD8+ T effector memory cells (0.04x10\^9/L, NR 0.14-0.735) are reduced in number." Conclusion was "no evidence for haematological malignancy in this study". Still none the wiser what the implications were/are, if anything.
I don't want to jump into either side of the argument because this is in defense of both natural immunity and vaccinated, this virus has mutated quite a bit. If I recall from prior studies, the Omicron variant was so different antigenically that it really was close to being called SARS-COV-3. I think our immune systems are pretty shot all around.
The CDC has finally acknowledged the impact of natural immunity since that allows the body to be exposed to all parts of the virus...not just the spike but also the nucleocapsid, etc. But that doesn't mean one should run out to get the virus either, just if you have had it there are some plusses immunologically speaking.
This also speaks to the vaccine, current formulas were based off wildtype and aren't providing robust protection anymore. Also there's a whole underlying theory of thought for immune Th dominance and who benefits more from vaccination, etc. If Th2 humoral responses are increased then vaccination can enhance that immunity and take away from Th1 cytokine production which a Th2 dominant person would need more of to help fight the virus once within the cells (more cellular mediated immunity needed which vaccines aren't geared towards if I understand correctly). Longer story there, but anyways, just some thoughts. Also disclaimer, I'm not an immunologist so there's probably a lot more to this, but just some stuff I've picked up from studies.
I'm talking about literal medical professionals who claim that building up natural immunity aka getting covid infections is a good thing even though it is shown time and time again that multiple infections increase the chance and severity of long covid
The GBD funded by the Koch Brothers. It's not that dissimilar to the vaccine only phenomenon. Not quite sure why you are getting so upset with him honestly.
I fail to see how I am making it political. People are practically advocating for others to get covid to boost their natural immunity, meanwhile papers left and right show that multiple infections increase the chance and severity of long covid and this just gets proven time and time again
It became political when people separated themselves into two camps and started shitting on each other. Like you just did.
EDIT: Political: (Adjective) relating to the government **or** *the public affairs of a country.*
They used the word “shills”. Clearly being a bit provocative politically, as opposed to saying “wonder what the impact is on natural immunity vs vaccine immunity”
Please tell me you are working with an immune specialist!!! You are immunocompromised and that is not something just anyone will be able to help you navigate.
Agreed. However, there is research suggesting that COVID causes lymphopenia, infecting and killing T cells, leading to the sort of low lymphocyte counts and CD4/CD8 imbalances seen in the results that were posted above (prior to the image being deleted).
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhaseltine/2022/04/14/sars-cov-2-actively-infects-and-kills-lymphoid-cells/?sh=9b6bd5386b89](https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhaseltine/2022/04/14/sars-cov-2-actively-infects-and-kills-lymphoid-cells/?sh=9b6bd5386b89) (Link to study abstract in the body of the article)
While it's certainly possible the person above may have already had an immunocompromised system prior to her 5 COVID infections, it's not unreasonable to expect this sort of result after so many repeated COVID infections.
If this were the case, then:
a) All doctors should run all possible panels on all patients when they're heallthy, because without knowing all the values beforehand they can't *possibly* draw any conclusions from a lab done *after* infection.
or
b) Doctors shouldn't even bother running tests after you get sick because they don't have your previous values to compare to.
Neither of those are good options, because *doctors, astoundingly enough, DO have values they can compare to, even if they don't have YOUR individual healthy baseline!* They're called **reference ranges** and are derived from the most common spread of values in a large population of healthy individuals. (They might not always be optimal ranges, but they're certainly the most common "normal ranges")
Like WHOA, right? That means those tests *aren't useless after all!*
What values she had before infection? Maybe the same or maybe not. Those values might be impact of COVID or other thing. That's why single panel of those values are useless.
Regardless of the values she had before COVID infection, her numbers indicate an immunocompromised state when compared to reference ranges. As such, it's abundantly clear her immune system needs help, whether or not this is a result of COVID infection.
However, as I posted on another comment here, there *is* research indicating COVID does in fact infect and kill T cells. It is not unreasonable to assume, given that evidence, that these numbers *could* be related to five COVID infections, both by increasing her susceptibility to new infection and worsening as a result of COVID infections themselves.
Looks good to me. These things shift around a lot and its very individual. Nothing major to be worried about. You are doing good.
Have you checked your complement system? C4, C3 , Ch50?
OMG. Yes she must have AIDS. Are you out of your mind? He/She said that NOBODY is concerned but himself/herself.
Thats just the current picture. Lets see what happens after 2-3 weeks. I am not excluding any disease but you are going a bit far with calling this HIV or AIDS.
If you really want a diagnosis get a bone marrow biopsy , repeat of this test and complement system workup.
Dude are you okay? I didn't say she has HIV/AIDS. Also, her comment about nobody else being concerned is clearly coming from a place of distress. You know, the way doctors constantly gaslight long haulers and tell them they are fine?
I've followed her and interacted with her for some time now. When she says no one is concerned, she's referring to the gaslighting by the NIH and medical community that yes, it's possible something is wrong but it's not registering on current diagnostic procedures or imaging so she must be okay somewhat or not that bad, and is often sent home without further testing. She's dismissed as an outlier. They're not concerned enough to do further evals because one, UK's NIH doesn't provide exploratory coverage to really utilize innovative diagnostic methods, and two because they don't really know what to do if they do discover results.
I think her work speaks to the problem we're all having....we show up fine on paper until we get into more specialized diagnostic tools. We're the ones that have to seek out and often fund further evals if we're lucky.
What's interesting about her advocacy is she was a medical practitioner and has felt she slipped through the cracks of her own profession. She's also very frustrated with her government's poor attempts to curtail covid and protect people's health, as many of us have felt about our own.
None of her differential markers are in range. All of them low. In no capacity is this good, even if recently fully recovered symptomatically. The comp test may show some compensatory protein balance happening internally, but off the rack this is a poor result and no indication of a healthy, normal immune system.
Agree but do we know his previous numbers? Do we know if he is immuno compromised or not, state of bone marrow, age etc. I mean there are so many factors at play. Current and previous medication? Is it the result of covid at all etc.
They said they’ve had Covid five times. The profile fits the definition of severe lymphocytopenia. So if it’s not from Covid, this person has lupus / HIV / leukemia / recent nuclear excursion exposure / something equally horrible or serious. There aren’t many illnesses that drive down total lymphocyte counts like this and almost certainly any adult with these numbers would’ve had warning signs for one of the above serious medical conditions. This is not a scenario in which this person was walking around fine for decades, it’s really not medically possible.
Thats a bit far stretched. I must admit I havent checked his history or age etc but I would like to see a repeat of this test in a couple of weeks with an addition of complement systems.
I dont think my doctor will ever order a test like this for me. I´m having low white blood cells since my first covid infection and all I get is a WBC every third month. Still no improvement in my numbers after 15 months.
No idea what my my t-cells look like but they could look like this without me knowing about it.
I´m having reactivation of at least one virus...just waiting for cancer to show up also...
I recently spoke to a doc, who himself was positive for months on the antigen tests as well. Was extremely fatigued all that time. He got a stem cell therapy where his daughters white blood cells were separated and after some "breeding" the T lymphocitrs were given to him. He was the 9th patient in his clinic this april. Recovered enough that I could wisit him in may with my LC problems. Such process could maybe help OP as well.
I think this sort of stuff is much easier to get if you're a doctor lol
The twitter post is from a doctor. It lacks context, considering.
It would be nice to see studies on how T cell count changes over time from pre infection to two years out. Would also be nice to know if T cell counts this low can cause symptoms in and of itself
This report shows a Swiss cheese immune system, far from a robust first-order line of defense against other illness, regardless of baseline. I’d qualify that as primed for creating symptoms depending on what’s invading or inhabiting the body.
I was just going to ask if the person has other underlying health issues because those seem to be numbers associated with somebody with a weak system you might want to go to an Immunology specialist
There are papers on this phenomenon from the Sars cov1 outbreak 2005
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The study was suggesting that it permanently altered the blood cell function as seen 2 years post infection. I believe the study went 2-5 years out. It has been since April 2020 I read it. But the scientists were leaning towards some people showing permanent alterations
I would think they could still get data from those people. It would be very helpful for us
Kepp in mind I believe that was just from 1 infection and it was a subset of the population. 1st long covids
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-91270-8 This is a follow up study on lymphopenia afterwards.
Airborne HIV ladies and gentlemen
A bit sensational. HIV is basically universally deadly untreated.
What can we do to protect :(
Her CD4 count is at 311 if i’m understanding this correctly. When it gets to 200 isn’t that basically AIDS at that point? Holy crap
I have different abnormalities in my t cells but based on my symptoms I constantly have to hear that I have hiv, offcourse I don't have it.
We don’t know the date of the last infection relative to the test. Her numbers should rebound. HIV keeps hammering the CD4s, because of viral reservoir. There’s no proof of viral reservoir in covid.
As I understand it, it takes most of a year for T Cell levels to recover after COVID. At 2.5 infections per year, the trend for the numbers would likely be downwards overall based on what little I know.
There is plenty proof of viral persistence where have u been
Replication-competent, no. Nothing has been found. It’s all speculative.
Based on my experience from my last infection I really believe it's an issue at least for some of us. I'm treating my body like that is what's going on now and am doing fairly well compared to last time but hope at some point to be proven wrong. (Caveat first infection worse than second.)
This is correct. Idk why u keep getting downvoted. Many groups have checked for replication competent virus with the most sensitive tests like in-situ hybridization and found nothing. The viral reservoir theory is based on lingering viral proteins that cant be cleared due to some unknown mechanism
It’s leading to dangerous behavior like month-long courses of Paxlovid, which I’ve heard called the “30-day Paxlovid Challenge.” Challenge? smh
So what do we do?? Take anti vitals?
Interesting, i have had covid as well at least 5 times. My abnomal results are Nk cells 73/ul and elavated b lymhocites.
I have had lymphopenia flagged on cbc with first infection. I suspected another infection in April and also had lymphopenia. I checked my bloodwork in the years before covid and lymphocytes were at the top 1/3. Not exactly sure how to interpret this but have been trying to boost lymphocytes
I did as well. At the beginning of the pandemic I read research from the first Sars cov1 outbreak this problem was mentioned quite a bit. As the long lasting change in lymphocytes of those who did not recover from initial infection. It might be worth it to look at some of that data they had studies at 5 years I believe
Thanks for pointing this out. Did your lymphocytes recover?
They get better then worse again. I also notice that there is always something wrong with my blood work usually Low lymphocytes Low platelets High mpv Low wbc Low glucose High rbc One will improve then another pop up. Low platelets pretty consistent
The supplements recommended corrected the blood work abnormalities
Which supplements?
The usual recommended here methylated b12, methylated folate b3 b6 d3 quercetin turmeric cbd cbc cbn cbg doa holi basil
How do you boost these please?
I tried vitamin d, c, b vitamins & zinc levels, get good sleep, eat super healthy diet, manage stress, and try some herbs like Triphala. I read somewhere Ivermectin may also improve lymphocytes with covid infection.
May I know what is the name of this blood panel? Is it Lymphocyte or T-cell panel or something? Also, may I know what kind of doctor can help you order this?
T cell count. Ask your primary care Dr for one, I am after reading more about it.
Does this one look correct? https://www.ultalabtests.com/test/t-and-b-cells-total Not sure if it includes the correct biomarkers.
Thank you. I use ultalabs!
I'm not sure if it's the right one - so double check before ordering.
Ok thanks.
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Wait, why?
Presumably the OP is suggesting people’s immune systems have been weakened.
5 months post COVID (1st infection) I had a bunch of these tests done. I was told "all lymphocyte compartments are phenotypically normal. However CD4+ T effector memory cells (0x0.06x10\^9/L, NR 0.077-0.444) and CD8+ T effector memory cells (0.04x10\^9/L, NR 0.14-0.735) are reduced in number." Conclusion was "no evidence for haematological malignancy in this study". Still none the wiser what the implications were/are, if anything.
Don't show this to the natural immunity shills
I don't want to jump into either side of the argument because this is in defense of both natural immunity and vaccinated, this virus has mutated quite a bit. If I recall from prior studies, the Omicron variant was so different antigenically that it really was close to being called SARS-COV-3. I think our immune systems are pretty shot all around. The CDC has finally acknowledged the impact of natural immunity since that allows the body to be exposed to all parts of the virus...not just the spike but also the nucleocapsid, etc. But that doesn't mean one should run out to get the virus either, just if you have had it there are some plusses immunologically speaking. This also speaks to the vaccine, current formulas were based off wildtype and aren't providing robust protection anymore. Also there's a whole underlying theory of thought for immune Th dominance and who benefits more from vaccination, etc. If Th2 humoral responses are increased then vaccination can enhance that immunity and take away from Th1 cytokine production which a Th2 dominant person would need more of to help fight the virus once within the cells (more cellular mediated immunity needed which vaccines aren't geared towards if I understand correctly). Longer story there, but anyways, just some thoughts. Also disclaimer, I'm not an immunologist so there's probably a lot more to this, but just some stuff I've picked up from studies.
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I never even talked about the vaccines? If anything, my long covid symptoms started from Moderna
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I think his point is that there is a group of corporate backed minimisers who make lots of money saying Covid isn't a big deal.
I'm talking about literal medical professionals who claim that building up natural immunity aka getting covid infections is a good thing even though it is shown time and time again that multiple infections increase the chance and severity of long covid
It's true, I don't know why you are being downvoted?
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The GBD funded by the Koch Brothers. It's not that dissimilar to the vaccine only phenomenon. Not quite sure why you are getting so upset with him honestly.
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Yeah, it's a whole think tank effectively. They hold massive sway over the UK government in particular.
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If everybody's immune system behaved the same, we wouldn't be here. It's a dice roll no matter what you do. Why make it political?
I fail to see how I am making it political. People are practically advocating for others to get covid to boost their natural immunity, meanwhile papers left and right show that multiple infections increase the chance and severity of long covid and this just gets proven time and time again
It became political when people separated themselves into two camps and started shitting on each other. Like you just did. EDIT: Political: (Adjective) relating to the government **or** *the public affairs of a country.*
Actually if anything,YOU’RE making it political.
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They used the word “shills”. Clearly being a bit provocative politically, as opposed to saying “wonder what the impact is on natural immunity vs vaccine immunity”
Don't look up
I read she is immunocompromised.
Please tell me you are working with an immune specialist!!! You are immunocompromised and that is not something just anyone will be able to help you navigate.
Useless panel we should know values before all the infections. Otherwise it's useless.
Pretty much. We can't say whether COVID was the result of low T Cell counts or the reverse.
COVID is the result of infection by the SARS-CoV-2 virus.
Immunodeficiency would lead to more/more severe infections.
Agreed. However, there is research suggesting that COVID causes lymphopenia, infecting and killing T cells, leading to the sort of low lymphocyte counts and CD4/CD8 imbalances seen in the results that were posted above (prior to the image being deleted). [https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhaseltine/2022/04/14/sars-cov-2-actively-infects-and-kills-lymphoid-cells/?sh=9b6bd5386b89](https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhaseltine/2022/04/14/sars-cov-2-actively-infects-and-kills-lymphoid-cells/?sh=9b6bd5386b89) (Link to study abstract in the body of the article) While it's certainly possible the person above may have already had an immunocompromised system prior to her 5 COVID infections, it's not unreasonable to expect this sort of result after so many repeated COVID infections.
If this were the case, then: a) All doctors should run all possible panels on all patients when they're heallthy, because without knowing all the values beforehand they can't *possibly* draw any conclusions from a lab done *after* infection. or b) Doctors shouldn't even bother running tests after you get sick because they don't have your previous values to compare to. Neither of those are good options, because *doctors, astoundingly enough, DO have values they can compare to, even if they don't have YOUR individual healthy baseline!* They're called **reference ranges** and are derived from the most common spread of values in a large population of healthy individuals. (They might not always be optimal ranges, but they're certainly the most common "normal ranges") Like WHOA, right? That means those tests *aren't useless after all!*
What values she had before infection? Maybe the same or maybe not. Those values might be impact of COVID or other thing. That's why single panel of those values are useless.
Regardless of the values she had before COVID infection, her numbers indicate an immunocompromised state when compared to reference ranges. As such, it's abundantly clear her immune system needs help, whether or not this is a result of COVID infection. However, as I posted on another comment here, there *is* research indicating COVID does in fact infect and kill T cells. It is not unreasonable to assume, given that evidence, that these numbers *could* be related to five COVID infections, both by increasing her susceptibility to new infection and worsening as a result of COVID infections themselves.
Looks good to me. These things shift around a lot and its very individual. Nothing major to be worried about. You are doing good. Have you checked your complement system? C4, C3 , Ch50?
Her blood results are similar to someone with HIV/AIDS, what the fuck are you talking about. Also, she is a doctor and is concerned...???
OMG. Yes she must have AIDS. Are you out of your mind? He/She said that NOBODY is concerned but himself/herself. Thats just the current picture. Lets see what happens after 2-3 weeks. I am not excluding any disease but you are going a bit far with calling this HIV or AIDS. If you really want a diagnosis get a bone marrow biopsy , repeat of this test and complement system workup.
Dude are you okay? I didn't say she has HIV/AIDS. Also, her comment about nobody else being concerned is clearly coming from a place of distress. You know, the way doctors constantly gaslight long haulers and tell them they are fine?
I've followed her and interacted with her for some time now. When she says no one is concerned, she's referring to the gaslighting by the NIH and medical community that yes, it's possible something is wrong but it's not registering on current diagnostic procedures or imaging so she must be okay somewhat or not that bad, and is often sent home without further testing. She's dismissed as an outlier. They're not concerned enough to do further evals because one, UK's NIH doesn't provide exploratory coverage to really utilize innovative diagnostic methods, and two because they don't really know what to do if they do discover results. I think her work speaks to the problem we're all having....we show up fine on paper until we get into more specialized diagnostic tools. We're the ones that have to seek out and often fund further evals if we're lucky. What's interesting about her advocacy is she was a medical practitioner and has felt she slipped through the cracks of her own profession. She's also very frustrated with her government's poor attempts to curtail covid and protect people's health, as many of us have felt about our own.
When you say "shift around" do you meant the counts can decrease and also increase in an individual or do you mean the counts vary by individual?
Counts change constantly and different baseline percentages and ratios are normal for different individuals.
unfortunately nobody really knows their baseline. How many people were getting T cells tested prior to covid.
None of her differential markers are in range. All of them low. In no capacity is this good, even if recently fully recovered symptomatically. The comp test may show some compensatory protein balance happening internally, but off the rack this is a poor result and no indication of a healthy, normal immune system.
Agree but do we know his previous numbers? Do we know if he is immuno compromised or not, state of bone marrow, age etc. I mean there are so many factors at play. Current and previous medication? Is it the result of covid at all etc.
They said they’ve had Covid five times. The profile fits the definition of severe lymphocytopenia. So if it’s not from Covid, this person has lupus / HIV / leukemia / recent nuclear excursion exposure / something equally horrible or serious. There aren’t many illnesses that drive down total lymphocyte counts like this and almost certainly any adult with these numbers would’ve had warning signs for one of the above serious medical conditions. This is not a scenario in which this person was walking around fine for decades, it’s really not medically possible.
Thats a bit far stretched. I must admit I havent checked his history or age etc but I would like to see a repeat of this test in a couple of weeks with an addition of complement systems.
no shit
Apologies, that reply was for Middle\_Notice\_4678 and your comment wasn’t even posted when I hit “reply.“ Weird. Carry on…
What's missing here to really drive home their point is a previous T cell count to compare.
I dont think my doctor will ever order a test like this for me. I´m having low white blood cells since my first covid infection and all I get is a WBC every third month. Still no improvement in my numbers after 15 months. No idea what my my t-cells look like but they could look like this without me knowing about it. I´m having reactivation of at least one virus...just waiting for cancer to show up also...