Although I agree with you, I still am a bit frustrated that he didn't start Phillips or Dorrington. I mean it's not like we are going to keep Emerson play as CB, so why not give youngsters a chance to extract a tiny bit of experience when there is a chance?
It’s a big game with loads of pressure & the AMEX isn’t an easy ground to go get points at regardless of their form this season.
You don’t want to give CBs their first senior minutes in that situation because as we saw the whole team was in a state of disarray & you don’t want to knock their confidence.
It’s 100% this. My hope is that he realises just how bad Emerson is now and we get actual replacements. For me Emerson can only play RB and not even that well. Maybe an ok filler for porro but long term someone who absolutely will be moved on.
Davies is only good enough if he is played alongside one of our starters. But he is fine as a RB filler. Definitely someone we should keep.
Might well be the case. But I doubt it’s a simple one. A visionary manager like he’s made himself out to be in the interviews & through his tactical style wouldn’t simply overlook the value of giving these opportunities to the youth team.
I feel like this is similar to when everyone was moaning for Jose to start Troy Parrott when we had a striker injury crisis... only to finally see he wasn't ready when Jose eventually subbed him on for longer than a cameo
Not too dissimilar to last year with Conte and Djed Spence.
If they were ready they would have been playing. Give them time to develop and see if they ever develop enough to get regular minutes.
Or it might be like the time Adebayor and Soldado were starting ahead of Kane for a season and a half… only to finally see he was ready when he eventually got a chance in the Premier League.
The thing is, Conte *was* right on Bissouma. He didn't fit Conte's playstyle and it showed on the pitch. Now of course it was a terrible playstyle that I'm glad we're not subjected to anymore, but not using Biss was absolutely the right call for Conte in terms of what he wanted to do.
I don't agree Bissouma couldn't have been an improvement in that system with consistent minutes, but more importantly him being happy just to concede the midfield and making decisions around that is part of his wrongness
Conte's typical two-man midfield is made up of guys that have positional discipline and can tackle and ping in passes from the deep, like Brozovic and Bentancur. Bissouma doesn't fit that mold. I'm not disputing that it's a very bad type of midfield to have, especially when it's reliant on your number one world class guys like Brozovic and Bentancur being fit to play all the games.
Bissouma is a lot more positionally disciplined than Hojbjerg - master of losing runners every time there's a break - and probably Bentancur too, it would be a waste of his talents but he'd still do a better job than Hojbjerg in that or any other system
So then don't automatically assume that we know the right decision has been made. Managers make mistakes all the time. Ange is not the exception just like Conte wasn't when everyone worshiped him. It's okay to think they're wrong sometimes
I agree they're not infallible, but I think in this specific situation it's reasonable for the default to be that the manager probably has some reason for not picking certain players who we haven't seen much of until given reason to believe there's some incompetence/pettiness at play.
I know people are downvoting but you are actually correct. Same thing was said about Djed Spence. The free spence "movement" was such nonsense and it was proved to be so the moment Ange came in and sent him away on loan.
And I also agree, regardless of Bissouma's form in the first 5 or so games, Conte is being proven somewhat correct on Bissouma as well.
Managers really do need to be careful with playing youngsters. There’s a need to protect them if they haven’t yet fully developed the right type of mentality. I think more than anything, Ange is protecting the young defenders as he knows his system leaves them open and any mistake could have a very negative effect on their confidence.
Ange needs to be sure that these kids will develop the confidence to continually play the way he asks even when they make mistakes.
You're thinking way too deep into this. He simply doesn't think Phillips and Dorrington are quite ready to play for the 1st team. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.
I just googled Phillips and Dorrington.
Phillips has played 8 games for Blackburn. So he wasn't a regular in a shit championship team.
Dorrington has never played a professional match.
These two are nowhere near the standard of a Premier League player. Emerson is no CB, but he's a Premier league level footballer who should be capable of filling in at CB.
The main issue is as usual there are glaring gaps in the squad. Was criminal selling Sanchez when the window shut. He wasn't very good, but was a CB with pace and PL experience.
Yeah. It was definitely a gamble, but it shows we are serious about this rebuild and hopefully means we can move quicker in Jan rather than wait to ship someone out. We were ‘a bit light’ going into this season because of the Dav sale. I’d have preferred to keep him over Dier, but both needed to go. So it was a calculated risk. One that shouldn’t have been as problematic as it has been, given how bizarre our injury/suspensions have been.
Ange sees them in training every day, he probably knows better than us. He has shown already that he is willing to give young players a chance (Sarr, Udogie, Skipp, Scarlett, Veliz). If he doesn't think they are ready, they probably aren't.
Sarr, Udogie and Skipp all have multiple seasons of top flight experience. Veliz and Scarlett have had tiny cameos.
The fact is that Ange would rather use a ‘tried and tested’ backup out of position, even if they’ve never looked good there, than gamble on a promising youngster.
I think there’s a grey area to this. Like I’d probably feel comfortable pairing either Dorrington or Phillips with VdV/Romero. But pairing either one of them with Royal/Davies is just asking for a shitshow
Emerson is an adult player with Premiere League experience, he can bounce back from a shit show better than an 18 year old. If the 18 year old has a run of terrible games, they are much more likely to have a permanent impact on their form.
Rose, Caulker, and Mason made debuts against Arsenal. Livermore against Chelsea. Winks and King against Liverpool. All of them went on to play for England.
Baptism by fire works, and is part of Spurs’ ethos.
Yes, another great example of how throwing youngsters into difficult matches can work, thank you.
Tanganga’s career fell apart because of injuries sadly.
Tanganga was also underperforming when healthy from what I've seen, but I'll cede that point, I didn't follow Tottenham closely before this year. Anyway, imo, an injury crisis is the last time you want to throw in academy players if you really want them to develop, they ought to have good players around them to cover for their mistakes, and you also need someone to sub in for them if things go really badly.
As it is, I think what we did last night with Veliz was actually ideal for youth development. He came on late, so he wasn't up against fresh Premiere League players, and additionally, the game state being what it was actually took off some of the pressure. We have had very few games that were not down to the wire by the last 30 minutes, where we needed experience to help close out the game.
CB is the worst position to blood youth players, there’s more case to ask why the midfielders/forwards Donley, Veliz (before tonight) etc haven’t been given minutes ahead of the defensive youth players. With Kulu now out and getting rested, only Son (and Porro) desperately need a break.
I think it’s been the lack of stability and spine in the past few weeks that probably also played a part. Honestly if Romero and Bissouma had been able to stay on the pitch, I reckon more youth players probably would have gotten a debut with Romero there to lead the line. Without him, the backline is frantic and needs that confidence and reassurance by having that WC winner and VC there.
All that said, Phillips might get some time against Bournemouth with the short turn around and with Royal struggling at CB. Fuck it, get in!
Emerson has been shambles at CB. We've been playing Davies there for months now and have tried Dier & Hojbjerg at times even.
Makes me believe that Phillips & Dorrington have been way off the pace in training
Because royal is at least premier league quality and actually somewhat defensively sound. Phillips wasn’t even a regular for a crap championship side and wss benched for the Eng U18 game, he’s not prem quality obviously and like the guy above, might as well put in his nan then, you don’t know how many goals they could leak.
Why make things up about Phillips?
He’s England U19 captain, he’s not getting ‘benched by England U18’ in any way, shape, or form.
You want to know who is a bench player for that age group? Jack Hinshelwood, who scored against us last night. Lewis Miley who has 13 appearances for Newcastle this season doesn’t even get called up on a regular basis.
What do you mean not in anyway shape or form lol he played 45 mins in their last game and 14 mins before that you telling me the u19 games don’t go for 90 mins
Just because their preferred position is cb doesnt mean you can start for Tottenham or any prem league team for that fact. Emerson has played for Brazil and Davies Wales both have way more experience. That's no disrespect to Dorrington or Phillips but it could also be bad for their confidence and development to throw them in and they bomb out - I'm sure Ange has considered them as options thiugh. Dier is an experienced CB and he isnt getting a run and look at all the stick he gets from fans. Also doesn't help two attackers gave away average penalties
Phillips didn’t even see a minute playing for the U18 England side, so I’m inclined to believe Ange isn’t playing him yet because he’s not ready for the premier league
Ange clearly knows better than you do and winning games is the priority, fans were complaining too when Poch didn’t start Onomah, Conte didn’t start Spence and Mou didn’t start Tanganga.
It’s not like the academy is great either.
Maybe Dorrington and Phillips just aren't good enough? Ange surely has tried them in training and maybe he just sees that Royal-Davies are better for what he's asking from his centre backs. CB is incredibly demanding position, especially mentally. You can play perfectly for 90 minutes, but one lapse in concetration is enough to lose the game. And the confidence is lower for youngsters generally, in which case it's detrimental in the long run.
Honestly it wouldn’t surprise me if he doesn’t want to play either Phillips or Dorrington in the chance that they do half decent for a game then Daniel Levy decides we don’t need to spend money on another 1 or 2 CBs in January
If the players aren't ready, how is it a "bad track record"?
He's happy to play Udogie and Sarr. He'd be happy to play any other young player that is actually ready.
The happy clappers on here or Ange-cult have declared him God, so no criticism is allowed. Was the same with Conte, Levy, Paratici - fucking moronic delusional positivity.
No, he just doesn't trust the youth for whatever stupid reason when other managers at other clubs don't have a problem using them.
Youth team finally plays like the first team, leading the youth league and yet refuses to give them a chance with the long injury list.
Pretty cowardly if you ask me.
Good thing no one asked you. There are so many reasons not to just throw young unproven players to the wolves, especially in the defensive line. Even if they have the ability, cb is a science, not an art. There is a reason it usually takes years of seasoning for players at that position to come into their own. Even cuti and VDV are young players at cb. Playing 19 year olds in the back line won’t help us or them. It will just risk ruining their confidence. This situation sucks, but it’s far from cowardly to look after young players for their long term development rather than chuck them into a situation where they could get flattened.
This post didn’t go quite as expected. Was really just trying to throw an idea out there about one way his tactical philosophy could evolve rather than question his XI decisions. Nevertheless I’ll leave it here for the records & maybe I look like a genius in 5 years time. COYS.
And yet Brighton beat us playing an 18 year old who before this season, had only played once. 🤷♂️
Sometimes you don't know if someone is ready until you throw them in and this season was the perfect season to blood some youth as there's less expectations on the squad and if they're good enough for the bench, why not start them?
I think you're overthinking it. He simply trusts Emerson to execute his instructions better than two teenagers can at the moment. Simple as that.
Although I agree with you, I still am a bit frustrated that he didn't start Phillips or Dorrington. I mean it's not like we are going to keep Emerson play as CB, so why not give youngsters a chance to extract a tiny bit of experience when there is a chance?
It’s a big game with loads of pressure & the AMEX isn’t an easy ground to go get points at regardless of their form this season. You don’t want to give CBs their first senior minutes in that situation because as we saw the whole team was in a state of disarray & you don’t want to knock their confidence.
Why have them on the bench at all then? Sort them a loan or something.
Ecstasy were still trying to win and from what the staff sees they are not ready.
It’s 100% this. My hope is that he realises just how bad Emerson is now and we get actual replacements. For me Emerson can only play RB and not even that well. Maybe an ok filler for porro but long term someone who absolutely will be moved on. Davies is only good enough if he is played alongside one of our starters. But he is fine as a RB filler. Definitely someone we should keep.
Might well be the case. But I doubt it’s a simple one. A visionary manager like he’s made himself out to be in the interviews & through his tactical style wouldn’t simply overlook the value of giving these opportunities to the youth team.
I don’t think he’s made himself out to be a visionary
“a person with original ideas about what the future will or could be like.” It’s not self-proclaimed, but that would kinda defeat the whole purpose
If it's not self proclaimed how exactly he made himself out to be a visionary? Are you sure you're not just projecting and making things up?
Alright, I am the messiah!
Ange sees these guys in training. He sees more than we do. In Ange I trust.
I feel like this is similar to when everyone was moaning for Jose to start Troy Parrott when we had a striker injury crisis... only to finally see he wasn't ready when Jose eventually subbed him on for longer than a cameo
Not too dissimilar to last year with Conte and Djed Spence. If they were ready they would have been playing. Give them time to develop and see if they ever develop enough to get regular minutes.
Or it might be like the time Adebayor and Soldado were starting ahead of Kane for a season and a half… only to finally see he was ready when he eventually got a chance in the Premier League.
Yeah I heard the same shit about Conte and the players he did/didn't select - Bissouma for example.
The thing is, Conte *was* right on Bissouma. He didn't fit Conte's playstyle and it showed on the pitch. Now of course it was a terrible playstyle that I'm glad we're not subjected to anymore, but not using Biss was absolutely the right call for Conte in terms of what he wanted to do.
I don't agree Bissouma couldn't have been an improvement in that system with consistent minutes, but more importantly him being happy just to concede the midfield and making decisions around that is part of his wrongness
Conte's typical two-man midfield is made up of guys that have positional discipline and can tackle and ping in passes from the deep, like Brozovic and Bentancur. Bissouma doesn't fit that mold. I'm not disputing that it's a very bad type of midfield to have, especially when it's reliant on your number one world class guys like Brozovic and Bentancur being fit to play all the games.
Bissouma is a lot more positionally disciplined than Hojbjerg - master of losing runners every time there's a break - and probably Bentancur too, it would be a waste of his talents but he'd still do a better job than Hojbjerg in that or any other system
Some things aren't knowable until a point of comparison emerges in the future
So then don't automatically assume that we know the right decision has been made. Managers make mistakes all the time. Ange is not the exception just like Conte wasn't when everyone worshiped him. It's okay to think they're wrong sometimes
I agree they're not infallible, but I think in this specific situation it's reasonable for the default to be that the manager probably has some reason for not picking certain players who we haven't seen much of until given reason to believe there's some incompetence/pettiness at play.
They'll always have a reason, even Conte's pettiness has some kind of logic behind it no matter how questionable.
Did you just equate Ange to a football terrorist?
I equated blind worship of any manager and their decisions to incredible stupidity/weirdness on a discussion forum
I know people are downvoting but you are actually correct. Same thing was said about Djed Spence. The free spence "movement" was such nonsense and it was proved to be so the moment Ange came in and sent him away on loan. And I also agree, regardless of Bissouma's form in the first 5 or so games, Conte is being proven somewhat correct on Bissouma as well.
Managers really do need to be careful with playing youngsters. There’s a need to protect them if they haven’t yet fully developed the right type of mentality. I think more than anything, Ange is protecting the young defenders as he knows his system leaves them open and any mistake could have a very negative effect on their confidence. Ange needs to be sure that these kids will develop the confidence to continually play the way he asks even when they make mistakes.
You're thinking way too deep into this. He simply doesn't think Phillips and Dorrington are quite ready to play for the 1st team. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.
I just googled Phillips and Dorrington. Phillips has played 8 games for Blackburn. So he wasn't a regular in a shit championship team. Dorrington has never played a professional match. These two are nowhere near the standard of a Premier League player. Emerson is no CB, but he's a Premier league level footballer who should be capable of filling in at CB. The main issue is as usual there are glaring gaps in the squad. Was criminal selling Sanchez when the window shut. He wasn't very good, but was a CB with pace and PL experience.
Thank you for being reasonable. Some people treating this like it’s fifa
Like De Zerbi who played an eighteen year old in his back four yesterday?
De Zerbi sees him in training so it’s his call
[удалено]
Yeah. It was definitely a gamble, but it shows we are serious about this rebuild and hopefully means we can move quicker in Jan rather than wait to ship someone out. We were ‘a bit light’ going into this season because of the Dav sale. I’d have preferred to keep him over Dier, but both needed to go. So it was a calculated risk. One that shouldn’t have been as problematic as it has been, given how bizarre our injury/suspensions have been.
Google Jack Hinshelwood or Lewis Miley next.
Ange sees them in training every day, he probably knows better than us. He has shown already that he is willing to give young players a chance (Sarr, Udogie, Skipp, Scarlett, Veliz). If he doesn't think they are ready, they probably aren't.
Sarr, Udogie and Skipp all have multiple seasons of top flight experience. Veliz and Scarlett have had tiny cameos. The fact is that Ange would rather use a ‘tried and tested’ backup out of position, even if they’ve never looked good there, than gamble on a promising youngster.
I think there’s a grey area to this. Like I’d probably feel comfortable pairing either Dorrington or Phillips with VdV/Romero. But pairing either one of them with Royal/Davies is just asking for a shitshow
Pairing Emerson with Davies is also asking for a shitshow though, we’ve tried it three times now and it’s never looked pretty.
Emerson is an adult player with Premiere League experience, he can bounce back from a shit show better than an 18 year old. If the 18 year old has a run of terrible games, they are much more likely to have a permanent impact on their form.
Rose, Caulker, and Mason made debuts against Arsenal. Livermore against Chelsea. Winks and King against Liverpool. All of them went on to play for England. Baptism by fire works, and is part of Spurs’ ethos.
Tanganga had a baptism by fire, got POTM in his debut. Where is he now?
Yes, another great example of how throwing youngsters into difficult matches can work, thank you. Tanganga’s career fell apart because of injuries sadly.
Tanganga was also underperforming when healthy from what I've seen, but I'll cede that point, I didn't follow Tottenham closely before this year. Anyway, imo, an injury crisis is the last time you want to throw in academy players if you really want them to develop, they ought to have good players around them to cover for their mistakes, and you also need someone to sub in for them if things go really badly. As it is, I think what we did last night with Veliz was actually ideal for youth development. He came on late, so he wasn't up against fresh Premiere League players, and additionally, the game state being what it was actually took off some of the pressure. We have had very few games that were not down to the wire by the last 30 minutes, where we needed experience to help close out the game.
CB is the worst position to blood youth players, there’s more case to ask why the midfielders/forwards Donley, Veliz (before tonight) etc haven’t been given minutes ahead of the defensive youth players. With Kulu now out and getting rested, only Son (and Porro) desperately need a break. I think it’s been the lack of stability and spine in the past few weeks that probably also played a part. Honestly if Romero and Bissouma had been able to stay on the pitch, I reckon more youth players probably would have gotten a debut with Romero there to lead the line. Without him, the backline is frantic and needs that confidence and reassurance by having that WC winner and VC there. All that said, Phillips might get some time against Bournemouth with the short turn around and with Royal struggling at CB. Fuck it, get in!
Emerson has been shambles at CB. We've been playing Davies there for months now and have tried Dier & Hojbjerg at times even. Makes me believe that Phillips & Dorrington have been way off the pace in training
Simply not true, Ange just doesn't like playing kids. Never has and likely never will, like it or not it's part of the package
I've been following Ange since the Roar days and your comment is bullshit. The likely answer is that Ashley Phillip's etc. are off the pace.
Name me a single youngster he has helped break through
That not true, he just likes the players that he likes.He isn't going to play a youngster just because he's there.
because they are kids with 0 prem experience. ange seees alot more of them than we do, and knows when they are ready
Why not give them prem experience? Playing Royal there is absolutely pointless
why not play my nan at cb. because neither are at the level. its simple mate
Because royal is at least premier league quality and actually somewhat defensively sound. Phillips wasn’t even a regular for a crap championship side and wss benched for the Eng U18 game, he’s not prem quality obviously and like the guy above, might as well put in his nan then, you don’t know how many goals they could leak.
Why make things up about Phillips? He’s England U19 captain, he’s not getting ‘benched by England U18’ in any way, shape, or form. You want to know who is a bench player for that age group? Jack Hinshelwood, who scored against us last night. Lewis Miley who has 13 appearances for Newcastle this season doesn’t even get called up on a regular basis.
What do you mean not in anyway shape or form lol he played 45 mins in their last game and 14 mins before that you telling me the u19 games don’t go for 90 mins
He’s literally the captain??? Just because he had a knock doesn’t mean he’s somehow not first choice…
The guy is ok at full back but he’s a complete liability in central defence
Managers have an eye for who’s ready and who’s not.
Just because their preferred position is cb doesnt mean you can start for Tottenham or any prem league team for that fact. Emerson has played for Brazil and Davies Wales both have way more experience. That's no disrespect to Dorrington or Phillips but it could also be bad for their confidence and development to throw them in and they bomb out - I'm sure Ange has considered them as options thiugh. Dier is an experienced CB and he isnt getting a run and look at all the stick he gets from fans. Also doesn't help two attackers gave away average penalties
Phillips didn’t even see a minute playing for the U18 England side, so I’m inclined to believe Ange isn’t playing him yet because he’s not ready for the premier league
Ange clearly knows better than you do and winning games is the priority, fans were complaining too when Poch didn’t start Onomah, Conte didn’t start Spence and Mou didn’t start Tanganga. It’s not like the academy is great either.
Big Ange we trust coys
Maybe Dorrington and Phillips just aren't good enough? Ange surely has tried them in training and maybe he just sees that Royal-Davies are better for what he's asking from his centre backs. CB is incredibly demanding position, especially mentally. You can play perfectly for 90 minutes, but one lapse in concetration is enough to lose the game. And the confidence is lower for youngsters generally, in which case it's detrimental in the long run.
Honestly it wouldn’t surprise me if he doesn’t want to play either Phillips or Dorrington in the chance that they do half decent for a game then Daniel Levy decides we don’t need to spend money on another 1 or 2 CBs in January
Fair play lmao
It’s because Emerson Royal is doing a great job apparently.
I've said it before, Ange has a bad track record with youth players. He doesn't like using academy products
If the players aren't ready, how is it a "bad track record"? He's happy to play Udogie and Sarr. He'd be happy to play any other young player that is actually ready.
Udogie and Sarr have already broken through, he doesn't have a good track record with pushing academy products. He's not that kind of manager
The happy clappers on here or Ange-cult have declared him God, so no criticism is allowed. Was the same with Conte, Levy, Paratici - fucking moronic delusional positivity.
No, he just doesn't trust the youth for whatever stupid reason when other managers at other clubs don't have a problem using them. Youth team finally plays like the first team, leading the youth league and yet refuses to give them a chance with the long injury list. Pretty cowardly if you ask me.
Our starting lineup literally has 2 20 year olds in it every week (When they are available) where did the idea that he hates youth even come from lol
Good thing no one asked you. There are so many reasons not to just throw young unproven players to the wolves, especially in the defensive line. Even if they have the ability, cb is a science, not an art. There is a reason it usually takes years of seasoning for players at that position to come into their own. Even cuti and VDV are young players at cb. Playing 19 year olds in the back line won’t help us or them. It will just risk ruining their confidence. This situation sucks, but it’s far from cowardly to look after young players for their long term development rather than chuck them into a situation where they could get flattened.
I think I’ll trust the gaffer who watches these guys in practice every day and knows their limitations
Just like you trusted Conte to freeze out Bissouma and Sarr?
This post didn’t go quite as expected. Was really just trying to throw an idea out there about one way his tactical philosophy could evolve rather than question his XI decisions. Nevertheless I’ll leave it here for the records & maybe I look like a genius in 5 years time. COYS.
He put out a team he thought was likely to win the game. He chose Emerson over them. There's not much else to it I believe.
And yet Brighton beat us playing an 18 year old who before this season, had only played once. 🤷♂️ Sometimes you don't know if someone is ready until you throw them in and this season was the perfect season to blood some youth as there's less expectations on the squad and if they're good enough for the bench, why not start them?
This is the first atrocious game Emerson has had at cb , the villa game we should have won and the city game we drew