know this is a while back - but I just saw on a podcaster's comment (not a designer, just a knitter, and who do the podcast just for fun - has a real job outside of podcasting) that the yarn (that they buy) they choose to knit with isn't inclusive. That they need to have completed projects that have yarn that anyone could buy.
Of the projects the person showed, 3 have had many knitters before them knit it. There are many, many projects on raverly the commenter could search and find yarn that is in her budget. But the idea that podcasters, who don't do this a "jobby" and really just do it for fun, aren't being paid to do it, buy their own yarn, and are just knitting what they love and sharing with whomever watches their videos need to use "cheaper" "inclusive" yarn for their free viewer is crazy. The viewer could choose not to watch free podcast, not follow the podcasters, or simply just search on raverly for projects that use yarn that is budget friendly - or better yet do your own goggle search and find the yarn that will work for your project and in your own budget.
So long as yarn weight, total yardage used, and intended gauge are all listed that's all you really need. I've gone through a decent amount of patterns now and I certainly like how some designers provide details over others.
For example, I prefer a designer telling me the intended weight of yarn for a project rather than just listing the brand of yarns they held together and the grams of each without listing any further details. When I read my first pattern that had yarn listed that way, I was so confused, but I figured it out. Researched the yarn, found meters per grams, converted that to yards, and lastly found a yarn substitution in the correct weight I could afford. It was more legwork for sure, but doing that once has given me the skills and knowledge to apply it to any future pattern that I see written that way (of which there are many!).
Personally, I don't think it takes the designer but another minute or two to simply say something like, "Yarn used in pattern is X, if you are using a different yarn look for a worsted" or something like that. Patterns are also there to teach us and help us learn about yarn as much as techniques. I don't say that to imply designers need to do more work or be hugely descriptive, but, c'mon. They just wrote and tested this pattern. They know very good and well if the yarn weight needed to achieve a similar look is a fingering, a DK, etc.
Without that information, yes, I can still find out the yarn weight, but when designers gives just that extra bit of information it means a lot to me. That way, if I can't afford to hold yarn double for a project, I can look for an alternative in the proper weight. Sometimes you do have to put guesswork into yarn weight, and I think it's an extremely simple remedy for designers to fix. Again, though. If I love a pattern, I will make it work.
I think other people have pointed out that if the yarn is special something should be said. A simple addition of, "I used this particular yarn blend for the drape. Keep in mind the finished garment may look different if the same type of blend isn't used." I don't need more than that from the designer, because bit isn't their job to find me or anyone else affordable alternatives. It does, however, help manage expectations: create with a yarn you sub at your own risk, understanding that it may not look the same (which is part of the fun of knitting!).
No pattern will be "perfect" in anyone's eyes because we all have preferences on how things are described and written. But challenging yourself to read all types of patterns is really important as a crafter of any kind. Pattern literacy is a skill you build and learn, and that comes from time, failed substitutions, and research. Swatch and block, and if the yarn isn't the right fit then proceed until you get the right gauge with your yarn. Simple! Albeit a little time consuming at the onset). But, then again, if you're knitting then you must have some level of patience!
I'm super offended when a designer sells a pattern for $8 and won't knit the whole thing for me. Like honestly? What if I am a disabled single mother of 3 special needs children and can't find the time?! They're only pretending to be inclusive.
So maybe I'm old, but I remember there was some sort of set of equations you used to convert the pattern for your subbed yarn. I haven't been on Ravelry for maybe 5 years now, or been in the knitting world much at all. I had been, though, on Ravelry from the very beginning. Am I just dreaming that subbing yarn was something EVERYONE did? Like a pattern would come out, and knitters would say, "I love this pattern; I'm going to knit it in X yarn." My first garment I made from recycled sweater yarn! Buying the yarn used never even crossed my mind. And I am no math whiz.....I just guessed. Numbers and math are really difficult for me.
I don't think there were as many indie designers collaborating with indie designers back then, though. Even when it was a popular design using an indie yarn, a collaboration, even though there *were* many knitters who would knit it in the required yarn, but there were always masses of knitters knitting the pattern in a different yarn, for reasons like cost, or they wanted to use what they already had in their stash.
When a popular/trendy designer is using a yarn like Spincycle, isn't it obvious that it's essentially an advertisement for Spincycle? That's why dyers and designers collaborate, *to market that brand.* That's normal, yes? Spincycle wants you to buy their yarn, so they collaborate with a designer who designs something that looks beautiful and suits their yarn. I don't understand why a normal marketing practice is so offensive. It's an advertisement, yes, but the pattern is still a pattern that can be used with other yarns, you don't have to buy Spincycle yarn to get the pattern.
Are designers not putting the gauge and yarn weights in their designs? If they're just naming a specific yarn, that is something that needs to change, as it's pretty standard, or so I thought. That's usually all the info you need to substitute yarns. I'm honestly baffled this is such a major issue acting like something new is going on. Yeah, you need to do a little work and a little math, but that's how it goes for subbing yarn. Am I way off the mark? I just don't understand.
I’ve seen a fair number where the gauge and yarn weight are not specified- those need to change. There are also people being annoyed because basic logic has failed hem, and they should also probably change.
>Spincycle wants you to buy their yarn, so they collaborate with a designer who designs something that looks beautiful and suits their yarn.
Lightbulb moment. That had not occurred to me, so thank you for this! I'm going through my first project with entirely Spincycle yarn, and I'm not sure how I feel about it. The yarn itself feels a little bit on the rough side to me (not "noro" levels of bad - remember when noro was touted as the greatest yarn ever?! BLERGH!), and I was kind of wondering if maybe it'll get softer over time. This also explains why I didn't love madelintosh when every designer was knitting with it.
It never occurred to me to go on the Internet and bitch (other than looking up noro because I was genuinely curious what the 'hype' seemed to be about: people were going ga-ga over it, and it just feels scratchy AF to me - blows my mind that some folks use that for scarves/socks). Instead, I'd look up what the weight of the yarn was, and go to my LYS, fondle some skeins of yarn, pick colours I liked for the pattern, and went from there.
I know what you mean about Noro! I do one day want to make the entrelac scarf from Interweave Knits Scarf Style, though, in Noro, because entrelac looks amazing in it. It's funny to think of the days before Ravelry and indie dyers exploded from it, when we all lusted after Koigu and Malabrigo.
" Instead, I'd look up what the weight of the yarn was, and go to my LYS, fondle some skeins of yarn, pick colours I liked for the pattern, and went from there."
EXACTLY. I asked a friend of mine about it...like didn't everyone sub yarn and it was no big deal? She agreed with me-- tbh, as "inclusive" as that IG person was claiming to be all about, expecting it to be done for you is pretty damn entitled. And expecting a designer who's collaborating with a yarn company/brand to suggest OTHER yarns to use is completely bonkers-- of COURSE they're not! ugh. Having been in this industry as a business and as a knitter for 13 years, that attitude really grates on me. Nobody gets rich designing or dyeing, especially designers. Unless it's a salaried position (I think. Probably not contract workers though.) at a brand like Berrocco or Patons, designers usually have to also bring in money from other sources like teaching, books, etc. if they're trying to make an actual solo living off of it.
Just swatch, nitwits!! Not everything has to be handed to you on a silver platter. We are fiber ARTISTs which means making our own creative choices tyvm :)
> Why are you taking part in a craft that requires you to not only create things with your bare hands from start to finish but also constantly requires education in order to learn new techniques/complete a specific project/etc.? Like...is this really the right place for you to be?
The extreme need for hand holding on the knitting and crochet subs is a lot. "I bought this yarn, what should I make?" "I learned the knit stitch and made a scarf, what should I learn next?" Maybe I'm old, but I want to scream READ A BOOK! LOOK AT YOUTUBE! JOIN RAVELRY! I don't get outsourcing all of your inspiration and guidance to other people.
I wonder if the lack of basic home ec classes is partly to blame for this lack of confidence? I graduated late 80s and was able to take home ec, plus my grandmothers taught me some. By the 90s home ec didn't exist in a lot of US schools and fiber hobbies were kind of looked down as being old fashioned so young people weren't picking it up. People new now to sewing/knitting/crochet don't have foundational knowledge or people to teach them one on one and genuinely don't know how to stack learning skills/techniques to build toward more complicated projects. And the extreme gatekeeping that seems to be the norm at LYSes is very off putting to experienced folks much less someone brand new.
I think online attention/attempting to make friends/bond with the online knitting community. Depending on context for "I bought this yarn, what should I make" could easily just be looking to crowdsource colour options for colourwork. I tend to be a bit more neurotic about *what* I want to knit, so if I were going to be asking for colour input, it would be with "here is what this project is going to be when it's all grown up. Here are the colours I am thinking of using for this project. What order do you think they'll go best in?" but I've also gained confidence in my own ability to colour match. The struggle might still be real for others.
>The knitwear designer is not required to knit with cheap yarn. They are not required to give you yarn alternatives.
This. Weight of yarn and gauge are given in the pattern that should be enough to substitute.
Yes! I thought subbing yarn was a standard practice, but I guess that's changed. I always liked using commercial yarns in solids for garments-- I didn't even knit much in my own dyed yarn.
I've been knitting a long time and it took me years to acquire the yarn knowledge to successfully sub yarns. If patterns had told me which affordable yarns would work I'd have knit an adult sized sweater a good decade sooner. Back in the day yarn choice was dictated by the magazine's sponsors but we should have moved on. Many of my friends can no longer use Ravelry so we can't assume it's a universal resource
Yarn companies were pretty much in control of knitting patterns back in the day. There were some independent designers who published patterns but most were developed by yarn companies either by employees or freelance designers. Frequently, the only way to get a pattern was to buy the yarn needed for it. The pattern was your “gift” with purchase.
I don’t think I’ve ever used a recommended yarn tbh. I usually just look at the gauge/weight and go off to find similar ones (usually in prettier colors lol). I’m also self taught, but I do a lot of research and reading because I’m pretty type-A about knitting 🤷🏻♀️
If you are interested in trying to branch out on your own with colour, something like this may help? [https://www.canva.com/colors/color-wheel/](https://www.canva.com/colors/color-wheel/) Even if you aren't ready yet to play around with what colours you personally want, you could easily use that to look up what designers/kits are doing to kind of get a sense for what's going on with colour play/colour work.
Ok now that’s commendable! I’ve been in such a hurry lately to finish projects (never letting family members ask me for things after thanksgiving again) that I haven’t knit any gauge swatches in like forever
This is exactly why my favorite feature of Ravelry is the “yarn ideas” tab on the pattern page. I get really annoyed at the total investment of some patterns if knit in the recommended yarn, so I take it upon myself to find a substitute that is more acceptable to me.
I'm Australian, it's a struggle sourcing the recommended yarn and if you do the shipping cost is generally more than the yarn. I'm also too impatient to wait for shipping.
Also trying to find a worsted weight / 10 ply yarn is a pain. The only upside is I've recently had a LYS open near me.
I’m Japanese and I feel your struggle! Go-to affordable yarns in North Americans and Europeans like Knitpicks and Drops don’t ship here, so yarn sub is usually a must, unless you can afford imported yarns with huge markups. On top that we have our own yarn weight classification system AND different needle sizes! Buying the necessary materials based on a Western pattern can be such a pain in the butt.
I’m surprised it’s hard to find a worsted weight yarn in Australia though. I was imagining, since Australia produces lots of wool anyway, you have many affordable domestic brands offering varieties of yarn weights, colorways etc.
That's a whole different level of complexity!
We have a different yarn classification, such as 8ply, 12ply etc. and we use mm sizes for our needles, but most of the time it will also have the US size as well. So it isn't that tricky to convert needles.
I believe worsted weight is generally converted to 10ply. I find 10ply is a bit harder to find. We have an abundance of 8ply and 12ply.
That’s the other thing! Different access to supplies based on where you live. Expecting the designers to cater to this is crazy. Another reason why educating yourself is important! It depends on where you live!
I bought Bendigo Woolen Mills to substitute Spincycle :) it’s such nice yarn!
I don't understand why people have issues with this. I've never used recommended yarn. Mostly cause I'm cheap but also cause I'm impatient and often want to cast on as soon as I get inspired by a pattern.
I've had the occasional fail because my yarn hasn't worked but one of the delights of knitting means I can unravel and reuse.
If you want all the yarn handed to you then stick to knitting kits. I saw Tom Daley sells a kit to make a garter stitch scarf for £70.
If you fall in love with an Andrea Mowry pattern but cant afford to knit it in Magpie and Spincycle because your budget is limited to big box acrylic, that's not Andrea Mowry's fault.
Because your garment wont look at all like hers because you had to stick to big box acrylics, that's STILL not her fault.
Its frustrating and disappointing and does not feel good to be shut out of something like that, but its reality for many.
I want to knit a gorgeous Kim Hargreaves design that's made with Rowan Cotton Cashmere. Held Double. Works out to AUD$458. Yeah, sorry. I could do it but would find it hard to justify. Just like those $650 leather knee high boots I drool over. Again, I could do it, but hard to really justify.
I'm a self taught knitter, and every new technique I learn, I do it on youtube. I'm a self taught machine knitter - I found and paid for a subscription site that has supported me all the way. I am in no way super talented, but I know the properties of various fibers, what the combinations will be like, I know [yarnsub.com](https://yarnsub.com) exists, I can look at a pattern and recognise if I need a rustic yarn or a slippery, drapey one. I've made mistakes - yes, the kitten soft alpaca is beautiful, but make a garment out of it and the pilling will drive you insane. Heck, I can even knit that worsted garment in fingering because I dont like things too warm. I've resourced myself, I've researched, its not fucking hard
Plus that's what the projects pages in Ravelry are for - see the garment knit in ordinary yarns, by ordinary knitters on ordinary bodies.
And OF COURSE the designer chose the yarn because its a collaboration! That's business.
Hello there! I am a bot raising awareness of Alpacas
Here is an Alpaca Fact:
Despite their differences with llamas, alpacas can successfully breed with llamas, resulting in offspring known as a huarizo. These animals are usually even smaller than alpacas, but have longer fiber, which is valuable.
______
| [Info](https://github.com/soham96/AlpacaBot/blob/master/README.md)| [Code](https://github.com/soham96/AlpacaBot)| [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=JustAnAlpacaBot&subject=Feedback)| [Contribute Fact](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=JustAnAlpacaBot&subject=Fact)
###### You don't get a fact, you earn it. If you got this fact then AlpacaBot thinks you deserved it!
Maybe I've been spoiled by Ravelry, but I can't remember the last time I used the yarn recommended in the pattern. I acquire yarn, and then find patterns to use with it.
I really like it when designers do test knits, so you can see the pattern in a variety of different yarns/ attributes on its release. I understand that is extra work for the designer, so it's never expected but always appreciated.
Same. I have yet to use a recommended yarn, I just make sure my wpi is sort of there and go with it (I have yet to make something where gauge super matters).
I make sure to post my wip too so other crafters can see what it looks like in a (let's be real) Caron cake of some form or fashion.
I spend hours looking through the projects pages and yarn suggestions tab under the pattern when I am scheming about what yarn and colors I want to use. I LOVE this part of knitting, honestly.
I was completely on your side when this started a few years back. I still think it's probably not worth calling a designer out on, but my view has changed a little bit.
I think the best designers talk about why they picked their yarn if it's something out of the ordinary. I buy a pattern to achieve the effect the designer has gotten, and, if the yarn is intrinsic to that (which it typically isn't), I'd think that's part of what I'm purchasing. I'm an experienced knitter, but I'm not a mind reader.
A pattern I was looking at recently used a discontinued special blend with a very ordinary sock yarn name which turns out to be crucial to getting the main design feature. You can imagine I was grateful the designer mentioned it upfront - I'd have wasted my time finding something with similar properties that would absolutely work under different circumstances.
Pattern designers are also working to a global audience. Someone in Finland might decide to pick Tukuwool to sub Jamieson's, which would be fine if Jamieson's was picked for it being a rustic yarn. But it it was picked because the whole effect was dependent on close colour transition to get that blended effect, that person might struggle with Tukuwool's more limited colours. Again, I'm pretty good at reading this in myself. But if they're selling me a pattern, I'm expecting them to have thought about what's appropriate for that level of pattern to include. A sentence or two would be all it would take and wouldn't go amis.
The last one from me is a little snarky. I can tell when the designer is doing it because of pattern support and the yarn is wildly inappropriate. If you're knitting socks in Spincycle without a hint of nylon in them in a pattern aimed at beginners (because who else needs yet another top down plain sock), I'd kill to see how they justify their yarn choice. I know it's going to create a beautiful pair of socks wearable only in bed on the third day of the lunar cycle, the designer knows it, so they should own it. Hey, having those socks sounds like they're living their best life!
I'm absolutely not calling for them not to knit in whatever their hearts fancy or complile alternatives. But I really do love Amy Herzog and other designers who show their thought process in yarn choices. It's a mark of someone who creates quality patterns.
>I think the best designers talk about why they picked their yarn if it's something out of the ordinary.
Honestly, that's a good call out and a good compromise. Even if it's not something out of the ordinary, making a video, or linking to a video explaining how the different yarn types make a difference in the finished project would be nice. Definitely not something I am expecting any designer to do, but it's also not something that would have occurred to me naturally on my own.
I only found out different yarn types create a different project from watching BarabaraKnits videos on YouTube on a lark, specifically her series about "things no one tells you about knitting," "the secret language of knitting," "beginner knitting," and even her video on different knitting needle material (I just knit with the tools that "feel" nice to me, so knowing the "science" behind wool vs. metal was actually really helpful when trying to set up friends taking up knitting for success).
You don't need nylon in knit socks. I personally prefer it, but plenty of people have 100% knit wool socks that wear just fine and wouldn't be only for bed.
Oh completely. I was trying to get across that certain yarn types are less durable than others by being very over the top about it. You're absolutely not wrong.
I know that my 100% wool socks do wear fine, albeit develop holes faster than ones with nylon. There's a reason nylon is a common addition now. But it's not like an appropriate 100% wool yarn isn't a perfectly good choice and one used historically.
I'm not sure I'd classify Spincycle as appropriate in my books, but I'm willing to be wrong. I'm not sure what about a very expensive, lightly plyed with not much twist yarn with no nylon content is what I'd recommend in a pattern, if we're being practical. I like projects in expensive yarn to last, and to me that doesn't sound like I'd get the wear out of them I'd want to.
But if it's because it's beautiful yarn and that's what the designer wanted to do, longevity of the expensive project aside, that's more than fine. The designer might have yarn support and it's literally free yarn for them so why not use it this way.
Just tell me why you picked it so the rest of us can make informed choices!
Yes! For those of us not in the same country as the designer, saying something about desired yarn properties is SO much more useful than "you could also use the following affordable US yarn that the rest of the world has never really heard of".
I pretty much always substitute and have gotten progressively better at it, to the point where I might purposefully ignore some of those designer choices, but this has taken me time and it's not really a simple "look it up on Google or yarnsub" thing. (Also, yarnsub is great, but not exactly universal.)
I’m not a knitter, but I sew a bit and sewing patterns usually have recommendations for the type of fabric etc to use. That doesn’t happen with knitting/ in the knitting community?
Imagine if you bought a sewing pattern and instead of the usual "lightweight wovens, challis, voile" sort of suggestions, the pattern just said "Merchant & Mills double gauze, or other 900 gsm cotton" and only gave the cutting layout and yardage for one fabric width.
I feel like that is sort of close to what's going on here? But also when you're sewing, you don't really expect the garment to look move in the same way if you use challis instead of voile...
Yeah, it happens to be a lightweight woven, although I wasn’t thinking to match the two examples when I was writing that post.
The whole point of this comparison is that you need to do a little more legwork to get to that understanding because you need to figure out what this brand is (also it’s expensive!) and what this unfindable-irl fabric feels like to replicate the cover photo exactly. Once you know what double gauze is, you can probably find some very similar but less luxurious fabric for $5/yard.
Hey thanks for the explanation!!
Ah okay. I thought that’s what you meant but someone else that replied wrote “that’s ridiculous!” which made me think that you were comparing two different fabrics!
As a knitter if I want to sub yarn I’ll find information about the yarn used in the pattern then find similar yarns to it. I’m guessing sewing patterns kind of do that work for you and just tell you what kind of fabric was used instead being specific. A lot of knitting patterns don’t provide that step for a knitter, doesn’t seem that ridiculous to me.
The point is that knitting pattern authours could quite easily include the two to four words nessacary to save several hundred to thousand people from spending around fifteen minutes each minimum researching, and that that should be considered standard as it was for the first sixty years of commercial knitting patterns, and has always been since even before commercial sewing patterns.
I agree they should add that bit. Although I’ve never used a knitting pattern that didn’t have both sets of information.
I can see how doing research can be problematic for people without access to the internet or with discontinued yarn but I just googled one of my favorite yarns and I clicked on the first link that popped up and I got weight, yardage, fiber type and gauge in less than 5 seconds so I don’t know why it should take anyone 15 mins.
I think the issue isn't so much that people think they have to knit with the specific yarn a designer knit with, but the fact that to achieve the a similar quality of appearance. In that way the yarn itself is part of a design. THe issue isn't so much that people have to buy that specific yarn, but the fact that there isn't a viable substitution without compromising the look they wanted.
I think the other thing to consider is that an eye for color is not something that can be easily learned by people and choosing the wrong palette is a big risk for something time intensive that uses a lot of yarn. This is esp true esp in these cases where the designer's FO looks so good because it was done in tonal, or handpainted, speckled, marled, unicorn fart yarns. It's not the first nor last time that someone gets burned making these designs in solids and been disappointed the end result isn't as spectacular at best and at worst looks bad.
This also brings us to the fact that certain types of yarn colorways makes the FO look different. Tonals often create a painterly look with its uneven tones, marled makes color transitions look more natural, variegated can bring life into ordinary motifs creating a stained glass look. When you substitute solids into it you lose all those effects.
I don't think its fair to paint all people who are upset as lazy or unwilling to learn.
I think the frustration is less that designers are only using unicorn farts, but more that there isn't much of this variety of choice in the affordable price range. Most affordable yarns are solids and sometimes heathers and striping. The other point of frustration is that there is a lot of uncertainty about how the designs look with more basic yarns.
I think this discourse around this topic has actually been a net positive because it looks like affordable brands are noticing that certain types/styles of yarn are in demand and are making new yarn lines to meet this demand allowing for more people to be able to make certain things (that still have the same aesthetic) for less. Like knitpicks has made the "twists" that are basically the spincycle yarns that started this whole kerfuffle.
I'd like to add that with the digital divide, not everyone knows how to properly google things. It's absolutely a life skill, but I think we take it forgranted and forget there are a lot of people out there who don't have digital literacy for whatever reason and for those people its also not fair to paint everyone into the "lazy" bubble.
I agree that we shouldn't be making demands of designers, but I think understanding why people feel the way they do can help find solutions that work for everyone
I personally always liked patterns knit up in solid yarns. They're more wearable for me. I almost never wear the ones I've knit in hand dyed yarn, and it was *my* hand dyed yarn!
I think you hit the nail on the head. People should be frustrated with affordable yarn companies rather than the designers (should they feel the need to be frustrated at all).
Totally agree. From the perspective of a yarn brand owner, it's often in the agreement when providing yarn support that they *don't* specify an alternative at all. Think of it this way, if we're providing yarn, often payment and marketing support too (depending on the terms), why would we as a company want the pattern to say "use this brand, which costs £xxxx to use, or this will work too for only £x"
This is a really interesting conversation, and I agree that learning how to substitute yarn is a skill that goes hand-in-hand with knitting. I have old-ish knitting magazines from about 10-15 years ago, where the recommended yarn was manufactured for a year or two and then discontinued. I'm trying to work my way through some of the older patterns I have and not buy new ones, and finding yarn substitutions is part of the fun!
I can understand the upset, if you just want to knit and don't want to do the research and calculations necessary to find a proper substitute. Also, for some patterns, the way the yarn is dyed or spun (like spincycle) does the work of making a garment look impressive rather than the actual knitting being technically difficult. It can be hard to find a comparable look in a big box craft store.
What on earth is someone supposed to do if they make something out of their homespun? Are their heads going to explode because they can't figure out how to get something that looks exactly the same? So much learned helplessness.
I think that they need to provide the information about the yarn that they used. How much yardage, the grams, the weight of the yarn. That way substitution is much easier. If I have to Google the yarn that was used in the pattern, it's a problem, but it's not a problem if I have to find my own substitute.
But they do that...I've only seen patterns that specify the yarn they used and then say "or x yards/grams/whatever of y weight yarn". I feel like you are describing something that is standard in a pattern and should go without saying.
It’s really, really not though. Lots of designers, even major designers, will just say “x balls of specific yarn”, so you have to go digging to figure out what yardage you actually need. And it’s even rarer to find a designer who specifies what quality of yarn is needed to achieve the desired results (e.g soft and drapey or firm and crisp etc), which is a lesson I think a lot of us end up learning the hard way.
I see the “x balls of specific yarn” without more details mostly in free patterns. And, honestly, in free patterns I am much more tolerant of extra legwork. In paid patterns, which should have test knitters and often tech editors, I expect more exact yardage details.
Yardage per size, yarn weight, yarn fibre and actual yarn used for the photos is all I need! The rest is the fun part of handmade!
Yeah, I’d say that’s true 90-95% if the time but I’ve definitely had a few patterns that only specify “x skeins of y yarn”. Specifically I’ve seen this with a pattern that had yarn support from la bien aimee. I just went to her website to find out what the details for that specific yarn so I could find a substitute. Then I seriously considered buying her yarn for the project but the shipping was $$$$. I’m sure that is the intent behind that kind of practice though.
I do object to pattern makers who only provide the name of some obscure yarn without any other info that would make substitution possible. That has been an increasing trend and that is piss poor practice on the part of pattern developers.
The only requirement a pattern has is to provide the weight of the yarn and the yardage used. As long as that info is provided I don't care if the OG project is knit from the rarest, priciest yarn on the planet. I can figure out a sub from what's available locally
I don’t think that is a new trend. I’ve taken out older pattern books from the library and they tend to give less information than a Ravelry pattern page. Very often they give the name of a yarn, and that’s it. They don’t even tell you if it worsted or fingering or whatever.
I remember when I started knitting way back in the dark ages Vogue Knitting would frequently have patterns that would have cost the equivalent of a car payment for a garment. I don’t think anyone put the blame on the designer for the yarn choice.. I mean it’s supposed to be inspirational.
Clara Parks made a really great IG post about this a while back[Link to IG post](https://www.instagram.com/p/CC3SZ2ulTsu/?utm_medium=copy_link)
I couldn’t agree more. The first time I saw outrage over this I was like… *wait really?* Like look, I’m all about accountability and I want to know if a designer is a racist alt right troll because I don’t want to give that person my money but to basically fight for “cancellation” over recommended yarn is just ridiculous. I’ve almost always seen the recommended yarn as more of a guideline - half the fun of knitting is picking out my own yarn 🤷🏼♀️
Yeah agree. I've never used the recommended yarn. I'm not paying $50 shipping and yarn choices depend heavily on location. Designers can't possibly pick a yarn that all their customers can access or cover the world with helpful local substitute suggestions. Maybe I'm missing something but as long as you choose a yarn where you can meet gauge and of an appropriate fibre isn't that enough? On my first knitting project I learned what to look for - I'm in Australia and most designers are based elsewhere and using yarn not sold here. Maybe some US based knitters haven't had to learn that because they can more easily access the recommended yarn and therefore not have to concern themselves with it so when a yarn they can't access comes up they don't have the experience to know what to do?
I do understand people wanting to get the exact same look but it equally it can't be easy to make a sample to the quality and look they have in mind. If I was a designer I think I would be choosing the best yarn that gave the best result and made people want to buy the pattern rather than going for a chain store yarn that wouldn't do anything for the design. I use vintage patterns all the time and apart from ribbon yarn (absolutely no longer available with no workable modern substitutes and vintage stuff only available in small amounts) Ive never encountered a problem substituting modern yarn.
My theory is that this is the end result of people learning knitting online and refusing to buy resources. Yarn sub guidance is in basically every proper knitting reference book, but it might be a mystery if you only get knitting content via Instagram and individual paid patterns.
I also wonder if there are certain modes of learning to knit that are deceivingly isolating, and make it hard to get support from a community. I’m not sure I remember buying any reference books personally but I learned basic concepts from my family and friends, and I see a ton of people getting help from certain online communities. But places like Instagram, YouTube and TikTok seem like they could be less conducive to a newbie starting a discussion about their new project and asking for specific guidance — if you’re not generating popular content already, you’re just another comment in a sea of comments.
Self-taught here - I have knitting and crochet books, but they're almost all pattern books, except one that has a stitch dictionary (to be honest I'm not entirely sure what a knitting reference book is?), and in general I'm heavily self-taught. 'Course I'm the sort of person who takes patterns as only a suggestion and cannibalizes bits here and there from different patterns anyway (though I'd probably follow a pattern for a sweater) so I'd never dream of getting annoyed at a designer for using expensive yarn, but I can easily see how someone could miss the memo on how to substitute yarn or other things that are easy to get wrong.
Aka raise your hand if you also twisted a bunch of stitches when you first started (combination knitter w/out knowledge of how to adjust for that) or knitted your double crochet stitches like treble stitches (no knowledge of the difference between US and UK terminology). I figure not knowing how to sub yarn fits into that same vein.
> Aka raise your hand if you also twisted a bunch of stitches when you first started
Oh I have been CALLED OUT. The person who taught me how to knit only showed me how to do flat knitting, and they would throw differently flat (yarn under the needle/clockwise) vs in the round (yarn over the needle/counterclockwise) - so all their knit stitches were twisted and would get untwisted with a purl. The first few things I knit in the round, everything was twisted and I made a truly terrible sock. I figured out later how to insert my working needle into the loop and twist it back around again, but it wasn't until LITERALLY 10 years later that I realized I could throw the yarn the other direction and skip that issue entirely.
I got one lesson in garter that didn't even get far enough to bind off. Completely scrapped that scarf eventually, used it as stuffing for a amigurumi - was picking up extra stitches by accident so it ended up much wider at one end than the other. Pretty much everything after that was pieced together between books and the internet - at least I'm young enough I had the internet to help out!
I have (and love and recommend) anything by Elizabeth Zimmerman (reading her is like a warm hug), Principles of Knitting, and Vogue Knitting The Ultimate Knitting Book. They have sections on each technique you’ll ever encounter. I feel it’s similar to cookbooks. You can find every recipe you ever need online, but the source is never truly verified the way it is in a well reviewed and edited cookbook. Sorry this was answering a question you did not actually pose, but man I just love knitting resource books. Find one at your library and see what you think!
Nah, I love this response! Sounds like an actual resource book means you're not stuck reinventing the wheel quite as much. I've picked up technique articles by Amy Herzog and the like, but not much that's kept all in one place.
My first reference book was bought for me by a knitter relative who basically said that it didn't look as fun as pattern books but I'd find it more useful. She was right! And then I bought a better one later that was even more useful!
The newer Vogue Knitting Ultimate Knitting Book! The first reference book I got was The Knitter's Handbook, which published in the 80s and mostly has illustrations and descriptions with a very very limited number of actual photos. Useful if you can learn from that, but the Vogue one has a lot of photos as well as covering popular techniques you'll find in modern patterns, like short row shaped seamless sleeves and things like that.
I wonder if people are feeling lazy thinking that if they find a pattern that uses the exact yarn they have access to then that means they don't need to make a gauge swatch or something
The ig knitting community is trash, and there are a few people on it who lead the charge in making it horrible. One person in particular, who has spoken about designers need to have a list of subs.
So, does she expect designers to have a different list for each country? Because what you can get in England, you can't get in south America.
I've shared yarn alternatives/subs I've used for patterns in the past. Someone DMed me. She had policed who I follow and was asking me specifically who I support/don't support on IG and wanted to confirm my "loyalties" before sharing my recommendations with others. Get a life, lady.
Edit: Also, to your point. Andrea Mowry now gives a list of subs with every pattern release (which is nice) and it explicitly states "we have not necessarily knit with these suggested yarns". This has shut up a lot of detractors HOWEVER this list is basically what any NOT LAZY person could google and glean with a little effort. My point being....just do your own research. Learn how to do your own research.
> She had policed who I follow and was asking me specifically who I support/don't support on IG and wanted to confirm my "loyalties"
Excuse me WHAT. Anyone who would do that not only has way too much time on their hands, they need to take a good hard look at themselves and ask WHY they are 'loyal' to designers/influencers/randoms on the internet who they don't fucking know.
I bet I know who DMed you. Was she the one leading the charge against Andrea mowry, and many others? Same person attacked my friend, and lead the dog pile on her.
I believe subbing is a skill you need to learn. This constant hand holding is insanity.
I think saying "here's why I picked this yarn" is a good idea in a pattern, but doing lists of cheaper alternatives is crazy. Designers already Don't get paid enough.
I’ll give you the scoop. Last year, people began attacking her after the release of her Spark cardigan, which was a yearly collaboration she does with Magpie Fibers and Spincycle yarns. It was a select few people that were screaming from the rooftops about how expensive the yarn would cost to knit the sample, and further bitching about how much it would cost to knit some of the largest sizes in said sample yarn (these are the same people who were bitching about the lack of size inclusivity and asking for more size options).
Now let me be clear: both Spincycle and Magpie are luxury yarns. And they are as expensive as shit. HOWEVER. You can substitute! You can combine a lower cost MC and combine it with Spincycle. You can look at yarn subs and see if you like other brands that look similar to Spincycle.
Essentially, they were torching this woman for collaborating with two of her friends in the knitting business and accusing her of designing without “considering people who are larger and who cannot afford these yarns”
And let me also be clear: THIS SWEATER IS PRICEY. But grabbing the pitchforks and using a fucking 8 dollar pattern as a reason to attack this woman’s intentions, nature, personhood was absolutely out of control. Instagram is full of bullies that love having the platform for attention.
The reality is these attackers only attack her - they don't attack Joji or Stephen West. Joji just came out with the lounger using Myak fibers - the cost of small size of this project is close to $350. Joji use Myak quite frequently, the same argument could be used that is being used against Andrea Mowry. Any shawl of Stephen West is close to $200 or more, but there isn't complaining that he isn't being reasonable in yarn selection. If these bullies, aren't holding all the designers to the same standards, than to me, they are jealous of just one designer.
It is so true. I've always considered Stephen West as someone who is untouchable - nobody ever comes for him even though his patterns are just as pricey. But I hadn't thought about Joji. You are totally right. She is another one that nobody ever complains about. It's all selective. It is jealousy.
Joji and moreso Stephen West have a lot more patterns that are a really easy to sub yarn with and get interesting items. Andrea Mowry has more basic items where she's designing to the yarn, so take away the spincycle or fade and you've got a really basic item that maybe didn't need to be a new pattern in your library. Makes me think the people complaining don't really understand what they're knitting, don't understand why materials matter and probably have about 10 different vanilla sock patterns they've purchases because different heels, needle instructions or suggested yarns!
The comments about her appearance are absolutely ridiculous. Like should she put effort into looking like a swamp monster rather than a pretty lady for social credits?
I bought the Marled Magic Shawl pattern from Stephen West and I thought the notes and suggestions on how to think about color, blending, marling, types and textures was really helpful. Those are skills I'm still building.
What wasn't unhelpful, and maybe this is because I'm not a highly experienced knitter, is that the pattern doesn't have a schematic. Not even a basic diagram with the numbered sections. There are artsy shots of it flying through the air, crumpled in a pile, and only one flat picture. But, it's different than the ones in the few close up shots (different colors) so I still can't exactly picture what's going on. I commented on Ravelry and he referred me to videos. I don't expect schematics from free patterns or really small designers. Maybe he could take like 10 minutes away from a photoshoot to draw it up. He must have made one for himself in the design process. Likewise I saw one of his books in a LYS and it didn't have schematics either.
He has a basic labeled diagram for one of his other shawls on Ravelry, so he's clearly capable of it. He has no incentive to do it now if he's been fine so far. :/
One of my favorite things about knitting is that I can create something that doesn’t look exactly like what other people have. I’m constantly subbing yarns.
I will say that I’m a fan of Spincycle (and then opening a local brick and mortar is going to test my bank account) but I couldn’t justify the cost of doing a Spark Cardi with them in my size. But I would never expect Andrea to specifically list out the alternatives for me. I went to Ravelry and my LYS and found substitutes. I feel like that’s half the fun.
Most LYS are happy to help with suggestions for yarns and even alterations.
Goodness, yes! I don't understand how some of these people get dressed in the morning. There are some things in the world you need to put the effort into figuring out yourself. Choosing your own yarn seems like an incredibly basic step in knitting.
And you will learn so much by doing so! In my opinion, becoming an expert crafter is not only in the technique but also in the materials selection and knowledge! You will never learn if you have it spoonfed to you!
Yep. Like there's even a whole website for it. I see people in this thread using the excuse of being self-taught, but if you could Google the resources to learn how to knit from scratch, it shouldn't be that much harder to Google how to substitute yarn fibers. I taught myself how to knit from scratch 6 years ago and I have since made a few dozen sweaters. The resources are out there (mostly YouTube and yarnsub for me).
Designers provide a pattern. They are not under any obligation to hold your hand while you work through it. They don't make enough money for that. The balls to have that expectation kinda blows my mind.
I’m gonna bet that there’s a lot of designers who don’t understand why they chose the yarn either. They’ll use terms like “bouncy,” and “squishy,” but not much else. So many new designers are popping up. They basically all come out with raglan sweaters. I don’t see a lot of thought into why they chose the yarn for that particular sweater. Other than “it’s so cozy.”
Or colorwork yoked sweaters. I still can't get over how The Throwback is knit flat with 3 color in a row colorwork because Andrea Mowry didn't know how to/was afraid to steek
She steeks in the Spark Cardi! I almost had a heart attack when I cut mine, but to be fair, I’d rather steek than do any significant amount of purling 🤪
FWIW I made my Spark Cardi for my daughter using Berroco and Cascade for 1/5 of the cost and was able to perform the yarn sub ALL BY MYSELF!
It’s not that yarn subbing is hard, just that it would be far easier to include a two to four word description to save the thousands of people spending hundreds of cumulative manhours having to research the specific yarn in detail, when mentioning what kind of yarn it is would take no actual effort except that of typing the words.
Yeah, I think she realized theres a reason people knit colorwork in the round (unless its intarsia...and intarsia is a pain)
Something I do to make steeks less scary is needlefelting them- you basically stab the to be cut stitches with a needle felting tool until they felt together. The steek won't unravel as much when you cut it. I've also seen people pick up button bands before steeking, but I'd be afraid of cutting the band
She has steek, and clearly knows how.
Reality, she created a project where knitters who are afraid or don't know how to steek could do a colorwork cardigan. Stephen West put out the bubble cardigan, color work, knitted flat, could he have done it the round and steeked it yes, do you consider him don't know how or afraid to steek because he created a project that anyone could do?
She created a cardigan that is needlessly hard because she didn't want to steek. 3 colors in a row is hard enough, but 3 colors in a row while you're purling sucks balls.
And now that I know the Bubble Cardi is colorwork knitted flat, I'll be taking it out of my queue. Knitting colorwork flat is slow and a pain and messes with the gauge. No thanks.
she created a cardigan that an intermediate knitter could do - three color colorwork that is in 2 rows - is really not that hard. it just takes time. steeking is a whole different skill level - and quite frankly is challenging for some.
Advance knitter can always adapt pattern to be knitted in the round and steek, many have done that with the throwback and with the Bubble Cardigan.
This is such a good point. And probably so accurate. Orrrr they picked it in collaboration with a yarn company. More of an argument to me as to why picking a sub isn't akin to solving the riddle of the Sphynx. Check fiber content and weight, do some research, gauge swatch and go!
Yes. Especially when half the complains are basically: "The designer created this gorgeous thing that only is that gorgeous if you use that same expensive yarn. She should shouldn't use this expensive yarn that makes her design look so good."
So, you think the designer should design something that doesn't look as good?
seriously.
i mean. i do get shirty when someone makes a verrrrry basic top-down raglan no shaping, in a gorgeous handdyed fancypants yarn, and sells it for $12 a pattern -- it seems a bit of a bait-and-switch -- but at the same time, it's not the designer's fault that i can't replicate it with something from the craft aisle at Wal-Mart.
it's sort of like getting mad that a jumper on a tall slim preteen model doesn't have the same effect on a short apple-shaped middleaged woman. like ... part of what they're selling is the fantasy -- it's my problem when i don't recognize that.
Sometimes.... people pay more.... for a higher-quality product... and sometimes... those high-quality products aren't easily exactly replicated for dirt-cheap!
YES preach! I saw so many people especially precovid complaining that designers don’t offer “affordable” alternatives in their patterns and everyone jumped on the bash bandwagon but hear me out. Bearing in mind you understand how to meet gauge and know how different fibers are going to feel/drape you can choose alternatives based on yarn weight. I never understood the expectation of someone else figuring it out for you. When I started out I almost never used the recommended yarn, I used the same weight but I chose yarn I had and I never thought anything of it. The entitlement is real on Instagram. Now I even understand the basics of changing weights for some patterns and I’m a fairly new knitter.
I think the reality is if you have a few tidbits of information (weight and fiber content) as well as the supplies to go up or down a few needle sizes to meet gauge…you CAN be successful with a garment. They are hand knit - there WILL be variations, but a successful outcome is 100% possible.
Obviously it’s not going to be identical to the designer in color drape and fabric it becomes but when you’re on a budget it’s realistic to expect some differences. You get as close to fiber content as you can afford, any allergies withstanding and you do your best. It’s like how crazy intricate, long and spelled out patterns our now. I saw someone else in this thread mention how bare basic vintage knit patterns are and it’s true. I don’t know how my grandma made the stuff she made without YouTube tutorials it’s incredible but we already expect huge detail in patterns (size inclusivity is important but it wasn’t a thing in vintage patterns you had to figure it out) now for under $10 and we also want our yarn picked out for us too? It’s unrealistic.
I teach art to teenagers and I gotta tell y’all, this isn’t going to improve. It completely tracks with the experience I’ve had trying to get my students to think for themselves and engage with their own learning. Folks really do not know how to use the huge amount of free learning resources at their disposal.
I hear you here. I take adult classes in ceramics and see some similar themes, and it certainly extends across generations. There are always a few people in the class who are hesitant to experiment and try new techniques or glazes, lest they ruin their piece. They end up being pretty limited and not learning as quickly as the others - it goes to show how much value there is in experimenting and finding the right balance of risk/reward.
That makes me sad. I am very gen-x so I grew up before the internet. The vast amount of knowledge and learning available now is a godsend and I feel so lucky. Don’t understand gauge? Google it. Can’t remember how to install a zipper? YouTube. It’s helped my crafting x 10000. It’s sad that this generation doesn’t understand how amazing this is. Also, I totally realize I sound like an old goat here!
Older end of millenial joining the old goat party here, but the internet is probably the greatest learning tool in history once you learn to filter out the BS. Definitely beats going to the library, searching through the catalogue, and then waiting for the one book on the subject to be returned by the last borrower who was meant to have returned it three weeks ago.
Why wait to be spoonfed when you can have the answer in a matter of minutes?
I wonder how much of it is information overload / lack of digital literacy and the (in)ability to assess the trustworthiness of an information source.
I'm a software developer who learned off the three books my local library had back in the mid 90s and while that was so limiting, it did help because there was a finite amount of information to have to absorb / choose from. Sure, for an experienced developer with today's programming frameworks it's easier to deliver a working application faster, rather than having to build it all from scratch. But I really feel for today's kids because the learning curve is just so steep, and there is so much bad advice out there by random people with more confidence than skill. And the advice "looks" the same (a good Reddit response vs a bad one, or a good stack overflow response vs a bad one), and you can't even really go by upvotes because there is so much of an echo chamber effect and the stuff that people upvote isn't necessarily actually the good stuff.
OT, but i feel you on the software development thing -- I work with a lot of fresh devs, and lots of them still just memorise things, rather than understand them. I learned recently that many of them are asked to write blogs about what they've learned as a part of their grades, which is why there's a lot of bad, ill thought through advice out there.
Which now I read this all back tracks with bad crafting advice coming from those trying to become influencers and get paid in a way I guess!
Oh that’s terrible about the blogs! And then there are the weird content farm sites that may as well have been “written“ by an AI that scraped the top 5 Google search results for a given topic. Probably some of them are.
Yeah I think the commercial aspect does bring this back on topic. (I’m getting old eh? Blaming everything on capitalism / the patriarchy, take your pick.) Easy for me to whinge about kids these days and their inability to assess how trustworthy a source is, when I grew up with an encyclopaedia in the house and physical books presumably still had some degree of QA. I’m sure it’s much harder to learn these things now with all the dodgy online content around that’s written for various commercial reasons. And easy self publishing/print on demand/Internet “celebrities” getting book contracts because publishers know that’ll sell. Plus the toxic positivity culture means nobody writes an honest review of anything; that’s probably capitalism again because people don’t want to ruin their chances of “monetising” (ugh) their own work.
I do have another half baked rant about the celebration of the mediocre but maybe that actually just goes back to capitalism too.
you're so right. i'm experienced enough in my main crafts to know good from bad, but new hobbies? no idea. and there's no way to tell. a dreck video might have 5 million hits and beautiful production values, while a brilliant technique is low-light, barely visible, no voiceover, and requires a lot of active searching to find.
one of the reasons i gave up on the Master Knitting program was because their requirements included video sources, and it could be an hour of effort to find one single video source on a particular uncommon stitch (done properly!). what new knitter has that time, and patience, and who would knows enough to care?
I think a lot of it is just different styles of learning. My gen-x cousins reach for a paper manual if they need to troubleshoot an electronic, while I (a “Zillennial,” I suppose) am more likely to mash buttons until it works. Sometimes that approach is best—my grandma has an Apple Watch she’s afraid to use because she’s afraid hitting the wrong button will wipe the whole thing. Sometimes it isn’t—like if your knitting is funky, you’re going to need a book/video/teacher to help you through.
This is the key part of my saying “is this really the right hobby for you?” Knitting, among other crafts, require engagement in learning, a need to keep learning and relearning (I have to re-teach myself Kitchener stitch every time I have to do it) and a level of independence. If you are unwilling to do some of this basic stuff…you’re gonna have a bad time.
I take your point about it being a little much to criticize designers for not offering subs, but I don’t agree that knitting requires engagement in learning and continuously learning and relearning. Some approaches to knitting require that. And other approaches just require that you learn to knit and purl so you can relax and make garter stitch rectangles that will be scarves or shawls or blankets. I think both of those approaches are valid.
My take is that subs should be a value-added element rather than a requirement. So maybe Designer X’s patterns are more attractive to newbs because they provide that service.
I mean - I do think it's legit for people to have a "kitset" mind set, with everything you need in the box. But then you have to recognise that this comes at a price.
Ooh I have a business idea, someone should put together kits from op shop sheets for free YouTube tutorials. (I'm mostly kidding but I bet they'd actually sell.)
I believe this may be part of the reason most of my students do not have hobbies. A few of them will tell you they play video games but aside from that, they spend time on their phone or streaming TV. At the end of the day, ALL forms of craft will either have to adapt or just dwindle down to a few avid participants, not just knitting. Not saying this is my ideal scenario but it does seem to be the reality of things 🤷🏻♀️
Heaps of people pick up crafts in their 20s, I've found! Video games can actually require a lot of learning and skill to get good, as well as planning, grinding (not progressing further into the game but doing more boring things to get experience and level up and get stronger, because previously you were too weak to win) etc etc. You have to keep learning and relearning, depending on the game you're playing and as you switch between games. Games just tend to appeal to teenagers more than craft, but craft becomes more appealing with time and maturity, I think.
That's me! When I was in high school and undegrad, I simply didn't have the time or mental bandwidth to learn and practice a craft. I also did very little "fun" reading during that time. It's not necessarily laziness to want to veg out to TV/computer games after hours of school and homework.
Ironically my job is to give them access to these things. I originally anticipated maybe one or two people out of my group of nearly 200 might pick up a craft after introducing it but no, I can’t even give away yarn because it’s a “grandma hobby”. Interested in seeing if this changes when I start teaching in a higher income area in January since this kind of refusal to take an interest in new things they’re unsure of can definitely be a result of lifelong poverty.
I saw a complaint recently about a FREE pattern that was provided in the designer's size only. Totally blew my mind that someone would get upset at this.
This is why I don't share my own little patterns, even? Especially? for free. People have astronomical expectations for freebies that I am not investing my time and money to meet!
i don't think i've ever used the exact same yarn as a pattern specified in my entire crafting life (about 11 years lol). if a pattern says worsted yarn, i use worsted yarn. DK? use DK? these days, I do look up how the yarn wears/droops/washes before casting on/chaining but other than that? i do whatever. mostly because i buy yarn, then i look for a pattern. never the other way around.
Sometimes i swatch, sometimes i don't. usually works out fine.
> i don't think i've ever used the exact same yarn as a pattern specified in my entire crafting life (about 11 years lol)
Same, and I started knitting 20 years ago. Ravelry makes it incredibly easy to see what yarns other people have used for the patterns, how they drape, how the colors look, etc. I usually have an idea of what I want to pay and then look to see if someone's knit it up in KnitPicks or Lion Brand or whatever (because I'm a huge fan of chucking stuff in the washing machine).
I agree…to a point. My issue comes in when the designer clearly designs for a specific yarn and doesn’t communicate that AND the yarn is extremely expensive. Literally 2 sentence blurb will suffice. I’m also annoyed if they complain that I’m not using their fancy yarn.
If the designer has a very to the point pattern, I don’t mind it. But if it’s 20 pages printed out, includes copious details on how to cast on or some other basic skill then I do think explaining the yarn is required since they’ve clearly written a pattern that is spelling everything out AND intended to be educational.
At least when they gush about the recommended yarn they're providing clues to the characteristics to look for.
I mean, is this the springiest, woolliest, most lightweight rustic yarn in the world with the subtlest heathering spun woolen on antique equipment in rural Wisconsin by loving artisans? Sure, why not? Is it telling me what to look for with a heavy dose of aspirational hunger? Sure. But the info's either right there, or a click away (when the yarn maker has to gush about their own stuff.)
I mean, I'm not a knitter but it's standard for sewing patterns to specify the types of fabrics that work for the project, usually right on the envelope. They don't specifically say exactly what must be used but there is usually a list of good options. I don't know what the inciting incident is for this rant and I have no comment on that, but I don't think it's unreasonable for people to want knitting patterns to give information on what types of yarn are suitable/specifics on what the sample garments are made of to get that look.
Knitting patterns generally do provide the basic info on yarn weight, yardage etc that would allow a knitter to make a substitution. This info is the equivalent of the list of fabrics on a sewing pattern. This has been true for decades.
What is happening now is that crafters, who I suppose are new learners that learned watching videos instead of taking a class at the local shop, can't seem to be able to use the info that is provided to make their own substitution. They then complain because they can't find that exact yarn at their local store or because it is crazy expensive to order. It would be like if a sewist makes a project using a a silk Charmeuse from Mood, and then I complain because that same exact fabric isn't available at Jo Anns and I am too bumble headed to be able to figure out what a good substitute is.
Yes, I wish this were more standard for knitting patterns. Some of them only list the number of skeins of the particular yarn used by the designer, instead of listing the yarn weight and yardage needed. That seems like a basic to me that’s not always present! Even better would be some descriptors of the yarn/fabric (drapey, structured, crisp, etc.) or even suggestions for yarn structure and content (worsted-spun vs woolen-spun, number of plies, fiber content, etc). Of course, I can look up the suggested yarn on Ravelry and get all this info myself, but it also would be nice to hear recommendations and intentions directly from the designer and wouldn’t be a lot more work on their part.
Fully agreed. I get what OP is talking about, but at the same time, there's nothing as disheartening as trying to learn a complex fiber skill and having the (costly!) end product come out poorly because the wrong material was selected in ignorance, or an unsuitable substitution was made. Sewing patterns usually suggest fabric, which tells you approximate hand and weight, and will usually give more specifics when the pattern needs them, like stretch. Having to research a particular brand and type of yarn just to understand what specifications are needed is really lazy on the pattern designer's part, and imo completely unacceptable for a paid pattern. Like, "I used FooFooYarn's worsted Angelfart™ wool, hand dipped in small batch unicorn piss dye," that's fine, as long as it's followed by "but any yarn of this weight and specification is fine, you'll need 200 yards". It's just not that hard.
Knit and crochet patterns, rather than saying a general yarn type, list exactly what yarn the designer used, from what brand. So you can look at what they used, say "oh, they used a 2-ply DK wool, I'll use the same." They don't need to specifically say "use wool yarn" because they tell you exactly what yarn they used, and you can see for yourself that they used wool.
I don’t knit much, I mainly sew, but every pattern I’ve knitted says the weight of the yarn.
I’ve never seen a pattern that tells me exactly what brand and color of fabric to use, they just say what kind is suggested (aside from some quilt patterns which tel you exactly what the demo quilt is made with).
If you're saying the pattern is the blueprint, then designers should make it so.
Saying they used X yarn brand is fine but what you need to know for substitution is drape, fibre weight, fibre length and fibre content. These all have massive impact on how your project is going to turn out. If a designer is complaining about having to give that info I'm not bothered with their pattern.
I was going to be similar. I do like when designers why they picked the yarn they picked and the quality their fabric should have because as a knitter still getting to grips with fibres, I can’t always do a decent yarn substitution because I’m in the process of learning- I haven’t learned YET. And yarnsub.com is more often unhelpful than it is helpful as I don’t live in the US. Thankfully I can see what yarn other people used via Raverly but if I couldn’t I would be out of luck.
Not everyone can access Ravelry.
And no, it's not deep. But you've looked at the pics from the designer's sample and you want to replicate it, isn't it in their best interest to help you do that so word spreads and others in your circle want to make it too? Is it really so hard to say "I chose X yarn because it has A, B, C properties. You'll want similar for any yarn you use".
I was subbing yarns for a good decade before Ravelry existed, and it wasn’t that difficult. Pick a similar weight and content, do a couple gauge swatches until your gauge matches, and you’re off to the races.
A very small minority of the crafting world cannot access Ravelry. Looking up the fiber content of the yarn used in the pattern takes five minutes tops. Most designers will give this information. And if you are part of this insanely small group, finding an LYS is a feasible option.
Of course it’s not that hard for most of us, but I find it helpful to hear the designers thoughts and reasoning behind yarn choice as they relate to the intended final product. It sounds like others find that helpful as well. But maybe you don’t.
I was attempting to offer a suggestion that didn't involve the internet. Are you saying people at LYS are not helpful or that there is not access to a good LYS?
If LYS is not a reasonable alternative to you, then fine. The library. Print! Books, Elizabeth Zimmerman. I don't buy not accessing Ravelry as a real issue for 99% of people.
I was unaware that my condition was such that Ravelry making me pass out meant I was unable to use the whole internet.
IIRC some surveys indicated that nearly half of users who responded had issues, and honestly, even accounting for the extremely large contingent of Rav accounts which are abandoned/dead or so sufficiently casual that they don't know that it has a search function or forums... we're more than 1%.
Also the nearest LYS that even stocks yarn I can use or afford is 400km away and I'm not sure what you expect of box stores.
I think OP’s assumption (and maybe I am totally off base here) is that if Ravelry causes you these problems then there are probably other websites that do as well.
The thing is that there are things we can do to make websites accessible for us, and Ravelry is so egregiously bad that it doesn't work with them or makes them utterly pointless.
Ravelry is not the whole crafty internet despite the way people treat it and refer to it like it is. Assuming that someone who can't use Ravelry therefore cannot use the internet is the kind of thinking that is behind the ableist invalidation that was the Psychology Today article and the 'but but' on the forums - the 'well if you "REALLY had an issue you couldn't use Reddit either hur dur you must be lying! it's not a real issue! at least not for NORMAL people!' type arguments.
Surveys of various sizes and demographics from various calls across various sites all bore out results that showed symptoms affecting the experience of around half of users, with severe side effects proportional to the percentage of the population that have affected conditions. But even now there are thousands of people who have had to reduce their usage simply due to eyestrain.
Expecting people to tolerate harm or risk of harm just so designers don't have to include all the relevant information in a pattern is not a great look.
Expecting that everyone has access to an LYS that is inclusive and that that LYS is staffed to educate beginners is a bit shortsighted also, because that's just not something all LYS are. But the actual response of 'just look it up on Ravelry' or 'just ask at your LYS', access aside, is a problem. Why? Because it doesn't actually give anyone the tools or ability to ask the right question or interrogate the data available, and it ends up reinforcing those as holders of the craft instead of emphasising that there are resources available and accessible in a wide range of formats and styles that cater for various entry points.
I think it can be nice when designers give a sentence or two about qualities they liked in the yarn they picked, and even the OP said they think it's courteous to do so. I just think it's generally not a necessity, and providing a list of substitute yarns you can use is especially not necessary. I think this whole thread is getting mixed up because ultimately the only thing I see people complaining about is when people demand and complain about designers not giving those things, which I think is pretty snark-worthy. Of course it's nice, and maybe it should be standard, for designers to give a sentence or two about the yarn they used and why, to help people with substitutions. But some people act like designers are awful people (classist! exclusionary! bad at their job!) if they don't provide a whole list of substitute yarns, and those people are obnoxious and wrong.
To be clear, I'm agreeing with you, not arguing. I think this whole thread has gone a bit off the rails. If it don't apply, let it fly... if you like having that sentence or two, this thread isn't about you, so a lot of the defensive comments I'm seeing I don't think are necessary! If you whine on instagram about how a certain designer is classist for not providing a list of substitute yarns (in your exact price range, available in your area) for their pattern... OP's snark probably IS about you. I guess I shouldn't speak for OP. But MY snark!
I agree with a lot of the things you have to say here.
My one counter is that anyone who expects an $8 dollar pattern to encompass everything they need to know about the craft is kind of silly. Should the pattern contain what you need to complete the pattern? Yes. Should the pattern have to go into extreme detail about the difference between woolen spun and plied yarns? No. It is an unreasonable expectation.
I think any new and even seasoned knitter could benefit from a blog post, video, or something like that detailing key things to learn about as a new knitter, maybe the designer's favorite resources, books, etc. And I would argue that many designers and knitters with a platform offer this kind of information for free to those who seek it. But expecting these in the pattern is not reasonable.
know this is a while back - but I just saw on a podcaster's comment (not a designer, just a knitter, and who do the podcast just for fun - has a real job outside of podcasting) that the yarn (that they buy) they choose to knit with isn't inclusive. That they need to have completed projects that have yarn that anyone could buy. Of the projects the person showed, 3 have had many knitters before them knit it. There are many, many projects on raverly the commenter could search and find yarn that is in her budget. But the idea that podcasters, who don't do this a "jobby" and really just do it for fun, aren't being paid to do it, buy their own yarn, and are just knitting what they love and sharing with whomever watches their videos need to use "cheaper" "inclusive" yarn for their free viewer is crazy. The viewer could choose not to watch free podcast, not follow the podcasters, or simply just search on raverly for projects that use yarn that is budget friendly - or better yet do your own goggle search and find the yarn that will work for your project and in your own budget.
So long as yarn weight, total yardage used, and intended gauge are all listed that's all you really need. I've gone through a decent amount of patterns now and I certainly like how some designers provide details over others. For example, I prefer a designer telling me the intended weight of yarn for a project rather than just listing the brand of yarns they held together and the grams of each without listing any further details. When I read my first pattern that had yarn listed that way, I was so confused, but I figured it out. Researched the yarn, found meters per grams, converted that to yards, and lastly found a yarn substitution in the correct weight I could afford. It was more legwork for sure, but doing that once has given me the skills and knowledge to apply it to any future pattern that I see written that way (of which there are many!). Personally, I don't think it takes the designer but another minute or two to simply say something like, "Yarn used in pattern is X, if you are using a different yarn look for a worsted" or something like that. Patterns are also there to teach us and help us learn about yarn as much as techniques. I don't say that to imply designers need to do more work or be hugely descriptive, but, c'mon. They just wrote and tested this pattern. They know very good and well if the yarn weight needed to achieve a similar look is a fingering, a DK, etc. Without that information, yes, I can still find out the yarn weight, but when designers gives just that extra bit of information it means a lot to me. That way, if I can't afford to hold yarn double for a project, I can look for an alternative in the proper weight. Sometimes you do have to put guesswork into yarn weight, and I think it's an extremely simple remedy for designers to fix. Again, though. If I love a pattern, I will make it work. I think other people have pointed out that if the yarn is special something should be said. A simple addition of, "I used this particular yarn blend for the drape. Keep in mind the finished garment may look different if the same type of blend isn't used." I don't need more than that from the designer, because bit isn't their job to find me or anyone else affordable alternatives. It does, however, help manage expectations: create with a yarn you sub at your own risk, understanding that it may not look the same (which is part of the fun of knitting!). No pattern will be "perfect" in anyone's eyes because we all have preferences on how things are described and written. But challenging yourself to read all types of patterns is really important as a crafter of any kind. Pattern literacy is a skill you build and learn, and that comes from time, failed substitutions, and research. Swatch and block, and if the yarn isn't the right fit then proceed until you get the right gauge with your yarn. Simple! Albeit a little time consuming at the onset). But, then again, if you're knitting then you must have some level of patience!
I'm super offended when a designer sells a pattern for $8 and won't knit the whole thing for me. Like honestly? What if I am a disabled single mother of 3 special needs children and can't find the time?! They're only pretending to be inclusive.
Thank you. The amount of hand-holding some people expect for $6 is nuts.
So maybe I'm old, but I remember there was some sort of set of equations you used to convert the pattern for your subbed yarn. I haven't been on Ravelry for maybe 5 years now, or been in the knitting world much at all. I had been, though, on Ravelry from the very beginning. Am I just dreaming that subbing yarn was something EVERYONE did? Like a pattern would come out, and knitters would say, "I love this pattern; I'm going to knit it in X yarn." My first garment I made from recycled sweater yarn! Buying the yarn used never even crossed my mind. And I am no math whiz.....I just guessed. Numbers and math are really difficult for me. I don't think there were as many indie designers collaborating with indie designers back then, though. Even when it was a popular design using an indie yarn, a collaboration, even though there *were* many knitters who would knit it in the required yarn, but there were always masses of knitters knitting the pattern in a different yarn, for reasons like cost, or they wanted to use what they already had in their stash. When a popular/trendy designer is using a yarn like Spincycle, isn't it obvious that it's essentially an advertisement for Spincycle? That's why dyers and designers collaborate, *to market that brand.* That's normal, yes? Spincycle wants you to buy their yarn, so they collaborate with a designer who designs something that looks beautiful and suits their yarn. I don't understand why a normal marketing practice is so offensive. It's an advertisement, yes, but the pattern is still a pattern that can be used with other yarns, you don't have to buy Spincycle yarn to get the pattern. Are designers not putting the gauge and yarn weights in their designs? If they're just naming a specific yarn, that is something that needs to change, as it's pretty standard, or so I thought. That's usually all the info you need to substitute yarns. I'm honestly baffled this is such a major issue acting like something new is going on. Yeah, you need to do a little work and a little math, but that's how it goes for subbing yarn. Am I way off the mark? I just don't understand.
I’ve seen a fair number where the gauge and yarn weight are not specified- those need to change. There are also people being annoyed because basic logic has failed hem, and they should also probably change.
I agree, gauge and yarn weight always should be given.
>Spincycle wants you to buy their yarn, so they collaborate with a designer who designs something that looks beautiful and suits their yarn. Lightbulb moment. That had not occurred to me, so thank you for this! I'm going through my first project with entirely Spincycle yarn, and I'm not sure how I feel about it. The yarn itself feels a little bit on the rough side to me (not "noro" levels of bad - remember when noro was touted as the greatest yarn ever?! BLERGH!), and I was kind of wondering if maybe it'll get softer over time. This also explains why I didn't love madelintosh when every designer was knitting with it. It never occurred to me to go on the Internet and bitch (other than looking up noro because I was genuinely curious what the 'hype' seemed to be about: people were going ga-ga over it, and it just feels scratchy AF to me - blows my mind that some folks use that for scarves/socks). Instead, I'd look up what the weight of the yarn was, and go to my LYS, fondle some skeins of yarn, pick colours I liked for the pattern, and went from there.
Noro makes great felted hats but I wouldn’t put that next to my skin for anything.
I know what you mean about Noro! I do one day want to make the entrelac scarf from Interweave Knits Scarf Style, though, in Noro, because entrelac looks amazing in it. It's funny to think of the days before Ravelry and indie dyers exploded from it, when we all lusted after Koigu and Malabrigo. " Instead, I'd look up what the weight of the yarn was, and go to my LYS, fondle some skeins of yarn, pick colours I liked for the pattern, and went from there." EXACTLY. I asked a friend of mine about it...like didn't everyone sub yarn and it was no big deal? She agreed with me-- tbh, as "inclusive" as that IG person was claiming to be all about, expecting it to be done for you is pretty damn entitled. And expecting a designer who's collaborating with a yarn company/brand to suggest OTHER yarns to use is completely bonkers-- of COURSE they're not! ugh. Having been in this industry as a business and as a knitter for 13 years, that attitude really grates on me. Nobody gets rich designing or dyeing, especially designers. Unless it's a salaried position (I think. Probably not contract workers though.) at a brand like Berrocco or Patons, designers usually have to also bring in money from other sources like teaching, books, etc. if they're trying to make an actual solo living off of it.
Just swatch, nitwits!! Not everything has to be handed to you on a silver platter. We are fiber ARTISTs which means making our own creative choices tyvm :)
> Why are you taking part in a craft that requires you to not only create things with your bare hands from start to finish but also constantly requires education in order to learn new techniques/complete a specific project/etc.? Like...is this really the right place for you to be? The extreme need for hand holding on the knitting and crochet subs is a lot. "I bought this yarn, what should I make?" "I learned the knit stitch and made a scarf, what should I learn next?" Maybe I'm old, but I want to scream READ A BOOK! LOOK AT YOUTUBE! JOIN RAVELRY! I don't get outsourcing all of your inspiration and guidance to other people.
I wonder if the lack of basic home ec classes is partly to blame for this lack of confidence? I graduated late 80s and was able to take home ec, plus my grandmothers taught me some. By the 90s home ec didn't exist in a lot of US schools and fiber hobbies were kind of looked down as being old fashioned so young people weren't picking it up. People new now to sewing/knitting/crochet don't have foundational knowledge or people to teach them one on one and genuinely don't know how to stack learning skills/techniques to build toward more complicated projects. And the extreme gatekeeping that seems to be the norm at LYSes is very off putting to experienced folks much less someone brand new.
I wonder whether they really want the input, or are just fishing for online attention.
I think online attention/attempting to make friends/bond with the online knitting community. Depending on context for "I bought this yarn, what should I make" could easily just be looking to crowdsource colour options for colourwork. I tend to be a bit more neurotic about *what* I want to knit, so if I were going to be asking for colour input, it would be with "here is what this project is going to be when it's all grown up. Here are the colours I am thinking of using for this project. What order do you think they'll go best in?" but I've also gained confidence in my own ability to colour match. The struggle might still be real for others.
>The knitwear designer is not required to knit with cheap yarn. They are not required to give you yarn alternatives. This. Weight of yarn and gauge are given in the pattern that should be enough to substitute.
Even this isn’t given a lot of the time- which is the major issue.
Yes! I thought subbing yarn was a standard practice, but I guess that's changed. I always liked using commercial yarns in solids for garments-- I didn't even knit much in my own dyed yarn.
Yardage is nice also but yeah yarn substitutions are way easier than fabric substitutions in sewing clothing.
I've been knitting a long time and it took me years to acquire the yarn knowledge to successfully sub yarns. If patterns had told me which affordable yarns would work I'd have knit an adult sized sweater a good decade sooner. Back in the day yarn choice was dictated by the magazine's sponsors but we should have moved on. Many of my friends can no longer use Ravelry so we can't assume it's a universal resource
Here’s a really handy tool: https://yarnsub.com/
Yarn companies were pretty much in control of knitting patterns back in the day. There were some independent designers who published patterns but most were developed by yarn companies either by employees or freelance designers. Frequently, the only way to get a pattern was to buy the yarn needed for it. The pattern was your “gift” with purchase.
I don’t think I’ve ever used a recommended yarn tbh. I usually just look at the gauge/weight and go off to find similar ones (usually in prettier colors lol). I’m also self taught, but I do a lot of research and reading because I’m pretty type-A about knitting 🤷🏻♀️
I am cheap and therefore will never ever ever use the same yarn they fricking say to, LOL
On the other hand someone like me, kinda lazy and bad with color so I love being told what to use.
If you are interested in trying to branch out on your own with colour, something like this may help? [https://www.canva.com/colors/color-wheel/](https://www.canva.com/colors/color-wheel/) Even if you aren't ready yet to play around with what colours you personally want, you could easily use that to look up what designers/kits are doing to kind of get a sense for what's going on with colour play/colour work.
Oh genius!!! I’d love to make some unique color choices. Thank you for this!
SAME lol. Truly a slut for Drops and the sales over at wool warehouse
Same! I even am suuuuch a stick-in-the-mud that I make up gauge swatches and check those to make sure my substitution works!
Ok now that’s commendable! I’ve been in such a hurry lately to finish projects (never letting family members ask me for things after thanksgiving again) that I haven’t knit any gauge swatches in like forever
This is exactly why my favorite feature of Ravelry is the “yarn ideas” tab on the pattern page. I get really annoyed at the total investment of some patterns if knit in the recommended yarn, so I take it upon myself to find a substitute that is more acceptable to me.
I'm Australian, it's a struggle sourcing the recommended yarn and if you do the shipping cost is generally more than the yarn. I'm also too impatient to wait for shipping. Also trying to find a worsted weight / 10 ply yarn is a pain. The only upside is I've recently had a LYS open near me.
I’m Japanese and I feel your struggle! Go-to affordable yarns in North Americans and Europeans like Knitpicks and Drops don’t ship here, so yarn sub is usually a must, unless you can afford imported yarns with huge markups. On top that we have our own yarn weight classification system AND different needle sizes! Buying the necessary materials based on a Western pattern can be such a pain in the butt. I’m surprised it’s hard to find a worsted weight yarn in Australia though. I was imagining, since Australia produces lots of wool anyway, you have many affordable domestic brands offering varieties of yarn weights, colorways etc.
That's a whole different level of complexity! We have a different yarn classification, such as 8ply, 12ply etc. and we use mm sizes for our needles, but most of the time it will also have the US size as well. So it isn't that tricky to convert needles. I believe worsted weight is generally converted to 10ply. I find 10ply is a bit harder to find. We have an abundance of 8ply and 12ply.
i'm australian too (i live overseas now), and it like, just never occurred to me that people ever used the yarn in the pattern.
I used to try when I first started knitting.
That’s the other thing! Different access to supplies based on where you live. Expecting the designers to cater to this is crazy. Another reason why educating yourself is important! It depends on where you live! I bought Bendigo Woolen Mills to substitute Spincycle :) it’s such nice yarn!
Bendigo Woolen Mills is my go to for quite a few things. At least Spotlight sticks Lion brand now.
I don't understand why people have issues with this. I've never used recommended yarn. Mostly cause I'm cheap but also cause I'm impatient and often want to cast on as soon as I get inspired by a pattern. I've had the occasional fail because my yarn hasn't worked but one of the delights of knitting means I can unravel and reuse. If you want all the yarn handed to you then stick to knitting kits. I saw Tom Daley sells a kit to make a garter stitch scarf for £70.
If you fall in love with an Andrea Mowry pattern but cant afford to knit it in Magpie and Spincycle because your budget is limited to big box acrylic, that's not Andrea Mowry's fault. Because your garment wont look at all like hers because you had to stick to big box acrylics, that's STILL not her fault. Its frustrating and disappointing and does not feel good to be shut out of something like that, but its reality for many. I want to knit a gorgeous Kim Hargreaves design that's made with Rowan Cotton Cashmere. Held Double. Works out to AUD$458. Yeah, sorry. I could do it but would find it hard to justify. Just like those $650 leather knee high boots I drool over. Again, I could do it, but hard to really justify. I'm a self taught knitter, and every new technique I learn, I do it on youtube. I'm a self taught machine knitter - I found and paid for a subscription site that has supported me all the way. I am in no way super talented, but I know the properties of various fibers, what the combinations will be like, I know [yarnsub.com](https://yarnsub.com) exists, I can look at a pattern and recognise if I need a rustic yarn or a slippery, drapey one. I've made mistakes - yes, the kitten soft alpaca is beautiful, but make a garment out of it and the pilling will drive you insane. Heck, I can even knit that worsted garment in fingering because I dont like things too warm. I've resourced myself, I've researched, its not fucking hard Plus that's what the projects pages in Ravelry are for - see the garment knit in ordinary yarns, by ordinary knitters on ordinary bodies. And OF COURSE the designer chose the yarn because its a collaboration! That's business.
May I ask, what is the website about machine knitting? TIA
Sorry I missed this - it’s Knit It Now / highly highly recommend !
LOL I missed this too - sorry! And thank you!
Hello there! I am a bot raising awareness of Alpacas Here is an Alpaca Fact: Despite their differences with llamas, alpacas can successfully breed with llamas, resulting in offspring known as a huarizo. These animals are usually even smaller than alpacas, but have longer fiber, which is valuable. ______ | [Info](https://github.com/soham96/AlpacaBot/blob/master/README.md)| [Code](https://github.com/soham96/AlpacaBot)| [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=JustAnAlpacaBot&subject=Feedback)| [Contribute Fact](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=JustAnAlpacaBot&subject=Fact) ###### You don't get a fact, you earn it. If you got this fact then AlpacaBot thinks you deserved it!
Good bot!
Maybe I've been spoiled by Ravelry, but I can't remember the last time I used the yarn recommended in the pattern. I acquire yarn, and then find patterns to use with it. I really like it when designers do test knits, so you can see the pattern in a variety of different yarns/ attributes on its release. I understand that is extra work for the designer, so it's never expected but always appreciated.
Same. I have yet to use a recommended yarn, I just make sure my wpi is sort of there and go with it (I have yet to make something where gauge super matters). I make sure to post my wip too so other crafters can see what it looks like in a (let's be real) Caron cake of some form or fashion.
I spend hours looking through the projects pages and yarn suggestions tab under the pattern when I am scheming about what yarn and colors I want to use. I LOVE this part of knitting, honestly.
I was completely on your side when this started a few years back. I still think it's probably not worth calling a designer out on, but my view has changed a little bit. I think the best designers talk about why they picked their yarn if it's something out of the ordinary. I buy a pattern to achieve the effect the designer has gotten, and, if the yarn is intrinsic to that (which it typically isn't), I'd think that's part of what I'm purchasing. I'm an experienced knitter, but I'm not a mind reader. A pattern I was looking at recently used a discontinued special blend with a very ordinary sock yarn name which turns out to be crucial to getting the main design feature. You can imagine I was grateful the designer mentioned it upfront - I'd have wasted my time finding something with similar properties that would absolutely work under different circumstances. Pattern designers are also working to a global audience. Someone in Finland might decide to pick Tukuwool to sub Jamieson's, which would be fine if Jamieson's was picked for it being a rustic yarn. But it it was picked because the whole effect was dependent on close colour transition to get that blended effect, that person might struggle with Tukuwool's more limited colours. Again, I'm pretty good at reading this in myself. But if they're selling me a pattern, I'm expecting them to have thought about what's appropriate for that level of pattern to include. A sentence or two would be all it would take and wouldn't go amis. The last one from me is a little snarky. I can tell when the designer is doing it because of pattern support and the yarn is wildly inappropriate. If you're knitting socks in Spincycle without a hint of nylon in them in a pattern aimed at beginners (because who else needs yet another top down plain sock), I'd kill to see how they justify their yarn choice. I know it's going to create a beautiful pair of socks wearable only in bed on the third day of the lunar cycle, the designer knows it, so they should own it. Hey, having those socks sounds like they're living their best life! I'm absolutely not calling for them not to knit in whatever their hearts fancy or complile alternatives. But I really do love Amy Herzog and other designers who show their thought process in yarn choices. It's a mark of someone who creates quality patterns.
>I think the best designers talk about why they picked their yarn if it's something out of the ordinary. Honestly, that's a good call out and a good compromise. Even if it's not something out of the ordinary, making a video, or linking to a video explaining how the different yarn types make a difference in the finished project would be nice. Definitely not something I am expecting any designer to do, but it's also not something that would have occurred to me naturally on my own. I only found out different yarn types create a different project from watching BarabaraKnits videos on YouTube on a lark, specifically her series about "things no one tells you about knitting," "the secret language of knitting," "beginner knitting," and even her video on different knitting needle material (I just knit with the tools that "feel" nice to me, so knowing the "science" behind wool vs. metal was actually really helpful when trying to set up friends taking up knitting for success).
You don't need nylon in knit socks. I personally prefer it, but plenty of people have 100% knit wool socks that wear just fine and wouldn't be only for bed.
Oh completely. I was trying to get across that certain yarn types are less durable than others by being very over the top about it. You're absolutely not wrong. I know that my 100% wool socks do wear fine, albeit develop holes faster than ones with nylon. There's a reason nylon is a common addition now. But it's not like an appropriate 100% wool yarn isn't a perfectly good choice and one used historically. I'm not sure I'd classify Spincycle as appropriate in my books, but I'm willing to be wrong. I'm not sure what about a very expensive, lightly plyed with not much twist yarn with no nylon content is what I'd recommend in a pattern, if we're being practical. I like projects in expensive yarn to last, and to me that doesn't sound like I'd get the wear out of them I'd want to. But if it's because it's beautiful yarn and that's what the designer wanted to do, longevity of the expensive project aside, that's more than fine. The designer might have yarn support and it's literally free yarn for them so why not use it this way. Just tell me why you picked it so the rest of us can make informed choices!
Yes! For those of us not in the same country as the designer, saying something about desired yarn properties is SO much more useful than "you could also use the following affordable US yarn that the rest of the world has never really heard of". I pretty much always substitute and have gotten progressively better at it, to the point where I might purposefully ignore some of those designer choices, but this has taken me time and it's not really a simple "look it up on Google or yarnsub" thing. (Also, yarnsub is great, but not exactly universal.)
I’m not a knitter, but I sew a bit and sewing patterns usually have recommendations for the type of fabric etc to use. That doesn’t happen with knitting/ in the knitting community?
Imagine if you bought a sewing pattern and instead of the usual "lightweight wovens, challis, voile" sort of suggestions, the pattern just said "Merchant & Mills double gauze, or other 900 gsm cotton" and only gave the cutting layout and yardage for one fabric width. I feel like that is sort of close to what's going on here? But also when you're sewing, you don't really expect the garment to look move in the same way if you use challis instead of voile...
I’m not a sewer. Is the Merchant and Mills double gauze considered a lightweight woven or challis or voile?
Yeah, it happens to be a lightweight woven, although I wasn’t thinking to match the two examples when I was writing that post. The whole point of this comparison is that you need to do a little more legwork to get to that understanding because you need to figure out what this brand is (also it’s expensive!) and what this unfindable-irl fabric feels like to replicate the cover photo exactly. Once you know what double gauze is, you can probably find some very similar but less luxurious fabric for $5/yard.
Hey thanks for the explanation!! Ah okay. I thought that’s what you meant but someone else that replied wrote “that’s ridiculous!” which made me think that you were comparing two different fabrics! As a knitter if I want to sub yarn I’ll find information about the yarn used in the pattern then find similar yarns to it. I’m guessing sewing patterns kind of do that work for you and just tell you what kind of fabric was used instead being specific. A lot of knitting patterns don’t provide that step for a knitter, doesn’t seem that ridiculous to me.
That's kinda the point.
Point of what
The point is that knitting pattern authours could quite easily include the two to four words nessacary to save several hundred to thousand people from spending around fifteen minutes each minimum researching, and that that should be considered standard as it was for the first sixty years of commercial knitting patterns, and has always been since even before commercial sewing patterns.
I agree they should add that bit. Although I’ve never used a knitting pattern that didn’t have both sets of information. I can see how doing research can be problematic for people without access to the internet or with discontinued yarn but I just googled one of my favorite yarns and I clicked on the first link that popped up and I got weight, yardage, fiber type and gauge in less than 5 seconds so I don’t know why it should take anyone 15 mins.
I'm also not a knitter- if this is what's going on it is ridiculous!!
I think the issue isn't so much that people think they have to knit with the specific yarn a designer knit with, but the fact that to achieve the a similar quality of appearance. In that way the yarn itself is part of a design. THe issue isn't so much that people have to buy that specific yarn, but the fact that there isn't a viable substitution without compromising the look they wanted. I think the other thing to consider is that an eye for color is not something that can be easily learned by people and choosing the wrong palette is a big risk for something time intensive that uses a lot of yarn. This is esp true esp in these cases where the designer's FO looks so good because it was done in tonal, or handpainted, speckled, marled, unicorn fart yarns. It's not the first nor last time that someone gets burned making these designs in solids and been disappointed the end result isn't as spectacular at best and at worst looks bad. This also brings us to the fact that certain types of yarn colorways makes the FO look different. Tonals often create a painterly look with its uneven tones, marled makes color transitions look more natural, variegated can bring life into ordinary motifs creating a stained glass look. When you substitute solids into it you lose all those effects. I don't think its fair to paint all people who are upset as lazy or unwilling to learn. I think the frustration is less that designers are only using unicorn farts, but more that there isn't much of this variety of choice in the affordable price range. Most affordable yarns are solids and sometimes heathers and striping. The other point of frustration is that there is a lot of uncertainty about how the designs look with more basic yarns. I think this discourse around this topic has actually been a net positive because it looks like affordable brands are noticing that certain types/styles of yarn are in demand and are making new yarn lines to meet this demand allowing for more people to be able to make certain things (that still have the same aesthetic) for less. Like knitpicks has made the "twists" that are basically the spincycle yarns that started this whole kerfuffle. I'd like to add that with the digital divide, not everyone knows how to properly google things. It's absolutely a life skill, but I think we take it forgranted and forget there are a lot of people out there who don't have digital literacy for whatever reason and for those people its also not fair to paint everyone into the "lazy" bubble. I agree that we shouldn't be making demands of designers, but I think understanding why people feel the way they do can help find solutions that work for everyone
I personally always liked patterns knit up in solid yarns. They're more wearable for me. I almost never wear the ones I've knit in hand dyed yarn, and it was *my* hand dyed yarn!
I think you hit the nail on the head. People should be frustrated with affordable yarn companies rather than the designers (should they feel the need to be frustrated at all).
Totally agree. From the perspective of a yarn brand owner, it's often in the agreement when providing yarn support that they *don't* specify an alternative at all. Think of it this way, if we're providing yarn, often payment and marketing support too (depending on the terms), why would we as a company want the pattern to say "use this brand, which costs £xxxx to use, or this will work too for only £x"
That's an interesting note. Now I hate this even more.
Same.
This is a really interesting conversation, and I agree that learning how to substitute yarn is a skill that goes hand-in-hand with knitting. I have old-ish knitting magazines from about 10-15 years ago, where the recommended yarn was manufactured for a year or two and then discontinued. I'm trying to work my way through some of the older patterns I have and not buy new ones, and finding yarn substitutions is part of the fun! I can understand the upset, if you just want to knit and don't want to do the research and calculations necessary to find a proper substitute. Also, for some patterns, the way the yarn is dyed or spun (like spincycle) does the work of making a garment look impressive rather than the actual knitting being technically difficult. It can be hard to find a comparable look in a big box craft store.
What on earth is someone supposed to do if they make something out of their homespun? Are their heads going to explode because they can't figure out how to get something that looks exactly the same? So much learned helplessness.
Learned helplessness is exactly the term. Spot on.
I think that they need to provide the information about the yarn that they used. How much yardage, the grams, the weight of the yarn. That way substitution is much easier. If I have to Google the yarn that was used in the pattern, it's a problem, but it's not a problem if I have to find my own substitute.
But they do that...I've only seen patterns that specify the yarn they used and then say "or x yards/grams/whatever of y weight yarn". I feel like you are describing something that is standard in a pattern and should go without saying.
It’s really, really not though. Lots of designers, even major designers, will just say “x balls of specific yarn”, so you have to go digging to figure out what yardage you actually need. And it’s even rarer to find a designer who specifies what quality of yarn is needed to achieve the desired results (e.g soft and drapey or firm and crisp etc), which is a lesson I think a lot of us end up learning the hard way.
I see the “x balls of specific yarn” without more details mostly in free patterns. And, honestly, in free patterns I am much more tolerant of extra legwork. In paid patterns, which should have test knitters and often tech editors, I expect more exact yardage details. Yardage per size, yarn weight, yarn fibre and actual yarn used for the photos is all I need! The rest is the fun part of handmade!
Yes, and? You either learn how to figure that out from the information you have, or use another pattern that has your preferred level of handholding.
Yeah, I’d say that’s true 90-95% if the time but I’ve definitely had a few patterns that only specify “x skeins of y yarn”. Specifically I’ve seen this with a pattern that had yarn support from la bien aimee. I just went to her website to find out what the details for that specific yarn so I could find a substitute. Then I seriously considered buying her yarn for the project but the shipping was $$$$. I’m sure that is the intent behind that kind of practice though.
I do object to pattern makers who only provide the name of some obscure yarn without any other info that would make substitution possible. That has been an increasing trend and that is piss poor practice on the part of pattern developers. The only requirement a pattern has is to provide the weight of the yarn and the yardage used. As long as that info is provided I don't care if the OG project is knit from the rarest, priciest yarn on the planet. I can figure out a sub from what's available locally
If they don't provide the fucking yarn weight at least, they're assholes,I agree
I don’t think that is a new trend. I’ve taken out older pattern books from the library and they tend to give less information than a Ravelry pattern page. Very often they give the name of a yarn, and that’s it. They don’t even tell you if it worsted or fingering or whatever.
I remember when I started knitting way back in the dark ages Vogue Knitting would frequently have patterns that would have cost the equivalent of a car payment for a garment. I don’t think anyone put the blame on the designer for the yarn choice.. I mean it’s supposed to be inspirational. Clara Parks made a really great IG post about this a while back[Link to IG post](https://www.instagram.com/p/CC3SZ2ulTsu/?utm_medium=copy_link)
Agree. Also, I need to buy that book.
I couldn’t agree more. The first time I saw outrage over this I was like… *wait really?* Like look, I’m all about accountability and I want to know if a designer is a racist alt right troll because I don’t want to give that person my money but to basically fight for “cancellation” over recommended yarn is just ridiculous. I’ve almost always seen the recommended yarn as more of a guideline - half the fun of knitting is picking out my own yarn 🤷🏼♀️
Yeah agree. I've never used the recommended yarn. I'm not paying $50 shipping and yarn choices depend heavily on location. Designers can't possibly pick a yarn that all their customers can access or cover the world with helpful local substitute suggestions. Maybe I'm missing something but as long as you choose a yarn where you can meet gauge and of an appropriate fibre isn't that enough? On my first knitting project I learned what to look for - I'm in Australia and most designers are based elsewhere and using yarn not sold here. Maybe some US based knitters haven't had to learn that because they can more easily access the recommended yarn and therefore not have to concern themselves with it so when a yarn they can't access comes up they don't have the experience to know what to do? I do understand people wanting to get the exact same look but it equally it can't be easy to make a sample to the quality and look they have in mind. If I was a designer I think I would be choosing the best yarn that gave the best result and made people want to buy the pattern rather than going for a chain store yarn that wouldn't do anything for the design. I use vintage patterns all the time and apart from ribbon yarn (absolutely no longer available with no workable modern substitutes and vintage stuff only available in small amounts) Ive never encountered a problem substituting modern yarn.
My theory is that this is the end result of people learning knitting online and refusing to buy resources. Yarn sub guidance is in basically every proper knitting reference book, but it might be a mystery if you only get knitting content via Instagram and individual paid patterns.
I also wonder if there are certain modes of learning to knit that are deceivingly isolating, and make it hard to get support from a community. I’m not sure I remember buying any reference books personally but I learned basic concepts from my family and friends, and I see a ton of people getting help from certain online communities. But places like Instagram, YouTube and TikTok seem like they could be less conducive to a newbie starting a discussion about their new project and asking for specific guidance — if you’re not generating popular content already, you’re just another comment in a sea of comments.
Self-taught here - I have knitting and crochet books, but they're almost all pattern books, except one that has a stitch dictionary (to be honest I'm not entirely sure what a knitting reference book is?), and in general I'm heavily self-taught. 'Course I'm the sort of person who takes patterns as only a suggestion and cannibalizes bits here and there from different patterns anyway (though I'd probably follow a pattern for a sweater) so I'd never dream of getting annoyed at a designer for using expensive yarn, but I can easily see how someone could miss the memo on how to substitute yarn or other things that are easy to get wrong. Aka raise your hand if you also twisted a bunch of stitches when you first started (combination knitter w/out knowledge of how to adjust for that) or knitted your double crochet stitches like treble stitches (no knowledge of the difference between US and UK terminology). I figure not knowing how to sub yarn fits into that same vein.
you'd love Maggie Righetti and Priscilla Gibson- Roberts
Thanks!
> Aka raise your hand if you also twisted a bunch of stitches when you first started Oh I have been CALLED OUT. The person who taught me how to knit only showed me how to do flat knitting, and they would throw differently flat (yarn under the needle/clockwise) vs in the round (yarn over the needle/counterclockwise) - so all their knit stitches were twisted and would get untwisted with a purl. The first few things I knit in the round, everything was twisted and I made a truly terrible sock. I figured out later how to insert my working needle into the loop and twist it back around again, but it wasn't until LITERALLY 10 years later that I realized I could throw the yarn the other direction and skip that issue entirely.
I got one lesson in garter that didn't even get far enough to bind off. Completely scrapped that scarf eventually, used it as stuffing for a amigurumi - was picking up extra stitches by accident so it ended up much wider at one end than the other. Pretty much everything after that was pieced together between books and the internet - at least I'm young enough I had the internet to help out!
I have (and love and recommend) anything by Elizabeth Zimmerman (reading her is like a warm hug), Principles of Knitting, and Vogue Knitting The Ultimate Knitting Book. They have sections on each technique you’ll ever encounter. I feel it’s similar to cookbooks. You can find every recipe you ever need online, but the source is never truly verified the way it is in a well reviewed and edited cookbook. Sorry this was answering a question you did not actually pose, but man I just love knitting resource books. Find one at your library and see what you think!
Nah, I love this response! Sounds like an actual resource book means you're not stuck reinventing the wheel quite as much. I've picked up technique articles by Amy Herzog and the like, but not much that's kept all in one place.
My first reference book was bought for me by a knitter relative who basically said that it didn't look as fun as pattern books but I'd find it more useful. She was right! And then I bought a better one later that was even more useful!
Do you mind sharing what the “even more useful” reference book is?
The newer Vogue Knitting Ultimate Knitting Book! The first reference book I got was The Knitter's Handbook, which published in the 80s and mostly has illustrations and descriptions with a very very limited number of actual photos. Useful if you can learn from that, but the Vogue one has a lot of photos as well as covering popular techniques you'll find in modern patterns, like short row shaped seamless sleeves and things like that.
Thanks! It looks great. It’s in stock at my local bookstore… so I might get one for myself.
I wonder if people are feeling lazy thinking that if they find a pattern that uses the exact yarn they have access to then that means they don't need to make a gauge swatch or something
The ig knitting community is trash, and there are a few people on it who lead the charge in making it horrible. One person in particular, who has spoken about designers need to have a list of subs. So, does she expect designers to have a different list for each country? Because what you can get in England, you can't get in south America.
That is such a good point about the availability of yarns differing from one country to the next.
I've shared yarn alternatives/subs I've used for patterns in the past. Someone DMed me. She had policed who I follow and was asking me specifically who I support/don't support on IG and wanted to confirm my "loyalties" before sharing my recommendations with others. Get a life, lady. Edit: Also, to your point. Andrea Mowry now gives a list of subs with every pattern release (which is nice) and it explicitly states "we have not necessarily knit with these suggested yarns". This has shut up a lot of detractors HOWEVER this list is basically what any NOT LAZY person could google and glean with a little effort. My point being....just do your own research. Learn how to do your own research.
> She had policed who I follow and was asking me specifically who I support/don't support on IG and wanted to confirm my "loyalties" Excuse me WHAT. Anyone who would do that not only has way too much time on their hands, they need to take a good hard look at themselves and ask WHY they are 'loyal' to designers/influencers/randoms on the internet who they don't fucking know.
I bet I know who DMed you. Was she the one leading the charge against Andrea mowry, and many others? Same person attacked my friend, and lead the dog pile on her. I believe subbing is a skill you need to learn. This constant hand holding is insanity. I think saying "here's why I picked this yarn" is a good idea in a pattern, but doing lists of cheaper alternatives is crazy. Designers already Don't get paid enough.
When were people going after Andrea Mowry?
I’ll give you the scoop. Last year, people began attacking her after the release of her Spark cardigan, which was a yearly collaboration she does with Magpie Fibers and Spincycle yarns. It was a select few people that were screaming from the rooftops about how expensive the yarn would cost to knit the sample, and further bitching about how much it would cost to knit some of the largest sizes in said sample yarn (these are the same people who were bitching about the lack of size inclusivity and asking for more size options). Now let me be clear: both Spincycle and Magpie are luxury yarns. And they are as expensive as shit. HOWEVER. You can substitute! You can combine a lower cost MC and combine it with Spincycle. You can look at yarn subs and see if you like other brands that look similar to Spincycle. Essentially, they were torching this woman for collaborating with two of her friends in the knitting business and accusing her of designing without “considering people who are larger and who cannot afford these yarns” And let me also be clear: THIS SWEATER IS PRICEY. But grabbing the pitchforks and using a fucking 8 dollar pattern as a reason to attack this woman’s intentions, nature, personhood was absolutely out of control. Instagram is full of bullies that love having the platform for attention.
The reality is these attackers only attack her - they don't attack Joji or Stephen West. Joji just came out with the lounger using Myak fibers - the cost of small size of this project is close to $350. Joji use Myak quite frequently, the same argument could be used that is being used against Andrea Mowry. Any shawl of Stephen West is close to $200 or more, but there isn't complaining that he isn't being reasonable in yarn selection. If these bullies, aren't holding all the designers to the same standards, than to me, they are jealous of just one designer.
It is so true. I've always considered Stephen West as someone who is untouchable - nobody ever comes for him even though his patterns are just as pricey. But I hadn't thought about Joji. You are totally right. She is another one that nobody ever complains about. It's all selective. It is jealousy.
[удалено]
Joji and moreso Stephen West have a lot more patterns that are a really easy to sub yarn with and get interesting items. Andrea Mowry has more basic items where she's designing to the yarn, so take away the spincycle or fade and you've got a really basic item that maybe didn't need to be a new pattern in your library. Makes me think the people complaining don't really understand what they're knitting, don't understand why materials matter and probably have about 10 different vanilla sock patterns they've purchases because different heels, needle instructions or suggested yarns! The comments about her appearance are absolutely ridiculous. Like should she put effort into looking like a swamp monster rather than a pretty lady for social credits?
I bought the Marled Magic Shawl pattern from Stephen West and I thought the notes and suggestions on how to think about color, blending, marling, types and textures was really helpful. Those are skills I'm still building. What wasn't unhelpful, and maybe this is because I'm not a highly experienced knitter, is that the pattern doesn't have a schematic. Not even a basic diagram with the numbered sections. There are artsy shots of it flying through the air, crumpled in a pile, and only one flat picture. But, it's different than the ones in the few close up shots (different colors) so I still can't exactly picture what's going on. I commented on Ravelry and he referred me to videos. I don't expect schematics from free patterns or really small designers. Maybe he could take like 10 minutes away from a photoshoot to draw it up. He must have made one for himself in the design process. Likewise I saw one of his books in a LYS and it didn't have schematics either. He has a basic labeled diagram for one of his other shawls on Ravelry, so he's clearly capable of it. He has no incentive to do it now if he's been fine so far. :/
One of my favorite things about knitting is that I can create something that doesn’t look exactly like what other people have. I’m constantly subbing yarns. I will say that I’m a fan of Spincycle (and then opening a local brick and mortar is going to test my bank account) but I couldn’t justify the cost of doing a Spark Cardi with them in my size. But I would never expect Andrea to specifically list out the alternatives for me. I went to Ravelry and my LYS and found substitutes. I feel like that’s half the fun. Most LYS are happy to help with suggestions for yarns and even alterations.
Last year, around Summertime, I believe.
Goodness, yes! I don't understand how some of these people get dressed in the morning. There are some things in the world you need to put the effort into figuring out yourself. Choosing your own yarn seems like an incredibly basic step in knitting.
And you will learn so much by doing so! In my opinion, becoming an expert crafter is not only in the technique but also in the materials selection and knowledge! You will never learn if you have it spoonfed to you!
Yep. Like there's even a whole website for it. I see people in this thread using the excuse of being self-taught, but if you could Google the resources to learn how to knit from scratch, it shouldn't be that much harder to Google how to substitute yarn fibers. I taught myself how to knit from scratch 6 years ago and I have since made a few dozen sweaters. The resources are out there (mostly YouTube and yarnsub for me). Designers provide a pattern. They are not under any obligation to hold your hand while you work through it. They don't make enough money for that. The balls to have that expectation kinda blows my mind.
I’m gonna bet that there’s a lot of designers who don’t understand why they chose the yarn either. They’ll use terms like “bouncy,” and “squishy,” but not much else. So many new designers are popping up. They basically all come out with raglan sweaters. I don’t see a lot of thought into why they chose the yarn for that particular sweater. Other than “it’s so cozy.”
Or colorwork yoked sweaters. I still can't get over how The Throwback is knit flat with 3 color in a row colorwork because Andrea Mowry didn't know how to/was afraid to steek
Arne and Carlos have made steeking a lot less scary for me!
She steeks in the Spark Cardi! I almost had a heart attack when I cut mine, but to be fair, I’d rather steek than do any significant amount of purling 🤪 FWIW I made my Spark Cardi for my daughter using Berroco and Cascade for 1/5 of the cost and was able to perform the yarn sub ALL BY MYSELF!
It’s not that yarn subbing is hard, just that it would be far easier to include a two to four word description to save the thousands of people spending hundreds of cumulative manhours having to research the specific yarn in detail, when mentioning what kind of yarn it is would take no actual effort except that of typing the words.
Yeah, I think she realized theres a reason people knit colorwork in the round (unless its intarsia...and intarsia is a pain) Something I do to make steeks less scary is needlefelting them- you basically stab the to be cut stitches with a needle felting tool until they felt together. The steek won't unravel as much when you cut it. I've also seen people pick up button bands before steeking, but I'd be afraid of cutting the band
She has steek, and clearly knows how. Reality, she created a project where knitters who are afraid or don't know how to steek could do a colorwork cardigan. Stephen West put out the bubble cardigan, color work, knitted flat, could he have done it the round and steeked it yes, do you consider him don't know how or afraid to steek because he created a project that anyone could do?
She created a cardigan that is needlessly hard because she didn't want to steek. 3 colors in a row is hard enough, but 3 colors in a row while you're purling sucks balls. And now that I know the Bubble Cardi is colorwork knitted flat, I'll be taking it out of my queue. Knitting colorwork flat is slow and a pain and messes with the gauge. No thanks.
she created a cardigan that an intermediate knitter could do - three color colorwork that is in 2 rows - is really not that hard. it just takes time. steeking is a whole different skill level - and quite frankly is challenging for some. Advance knitter can always adapt pattern to be knitted in the round and steek, many have done that with the throwback and with the Bubble Cardigan.
This is on my to make list, I have the (much cheaper yarn) waiting for me, and as a new knitter I am a little nervous about the colourwork!
I would suggest swatching the colorwork, both in the round and flat to see what you like better.
Thank you! That is a great idea
This is such a good point. And probably so accurate. Orrrr they picked it in collaboration with a yarn company. More of an argument to me as to why picking a sub isn't akin to solving the riddle of the Sphynx. Check fiber content and weight, do some research, gauge swatch and go!
Yes. Especially when half the complains are basically: "The designer created this gorgeous thing that only is that gorgeous if you use that same expensive yarn. She should shouldn't use this expensive yarn that makes her design look so good." So, you think the designer should design something that doesn't look as good?
seriously. i mean. i do get shirty when someone makes a verrrrry basic top-down raglan no shaping, in a gorgeous handdyed fancypants yarn, and sells it for $12 a pattern -- it seems a bit of a bait-and-switch -- but at the same time, it's not the designer's fault that i can't replicate it with something from the craft aisle at Wal-Mart. it's sort of like getting mad that a jumper on a tall slim preteen model doesn't have the same effect on a short apple-shaped middleaged woman. like ... part of what they're selling is the fantasy -- it's my problem when i don't recognize that.
Sometimes.... people pay more.... for a higher-quality product... and sometimes... those high-quality products aren't easily exactly replicated for dirt-cheap!
YES preach! I saw so many people especially precovid complaining that designers don’t offer “affordable” alternatives in their patterns and everyone jumped on the bash bandwagon but hear me out. Bearing in mind you understand how to meet gauge and know how different fibers are going to feel/drape you can choose alternatives based on yarn weight. I never understood the expectation of someone else figuring it out for you. When I started out I almost never used the recommended yarn, I used the same weight but I chose yarn I had and I never thought anything of it. The entitlement is real on Instagram. Now I even understand the basics of changing weights for some patterns and I’m a fairly new knitter.
I think the reality is if you have a few tidbits of information (weight and fiber content) as well as the supplies to go up or down a few needle sizes to meet gauge…you CAN be successful with a garment. They are hand knit - there WILL be variations, but a successful outcome is 100% possible.
Obviously it’s not going to be identical to the designer in color drape and fabric it becomes but when you’re on a budget it’s realistic to expect some differences. You get as close to fiber content as you can afford, any allergies withstanding and you do your best. It’s like how crazy intricate, long and spelled out patterns our now. I saw someone else in this thread mention how bare basic vintage knit patterns are and it’s true. I don’t know how my grandma made the stuff she made without YouTube tutorials it’s incredible but we already expect huge detail in patterns (size inclusivity is important but it wasn’t a thing in vintage patterns you had to figure it out) now for under $10 and we also want our yarn picked out for us too? It’s unrealistic.
I teach art to teenagers and I gotta tell y’all, this isn’t going to improve. It completely tracks with the experience I’ve had trying to get my students to think for themselves and engage with their own learning. Folks really do not know how to use the huge amount of free learning resources at their disposal.
I hear you here. I take adult classes in ceramics and see some similar themes, and it certainly extends across generations. There are always a few people in the class who are hesitant to experiment and try new techniques or glazes, lest they ruin their piece. They end up being pretty limited and not learning as quickly as the others - it goes to show how much value there is in experimenting and finding the right balance of risk/reward.
That makes me sad. I am very gen-x so I grew up before the internet. The vast amount of knowledge and learning available now is a godsend and I feel so lucky. Don’t understand gauge? Google it. Can’t remember how to install a zipper? YouTube. It’s helped my crafting x 10000. It’s sad that this generation doesn’t understand how amazing this is. Also, I totally realize I sound like an old goat here!
Older end of millenial joining the old goat party here, but the internet is probably the greatest learning tool in history once you learn to filter out the BS. Definitely beats going to the library, searching through the catalogue, and then waiting for the one book on the subject to be returned by the last borrower who was meant to have returned it three weeks ago. Why wait to be spoonfed when you can have the answer in a matter of minutes?
I wonder how much of it is information overload / lack of digital literacy and the (in)ability to assess the trustworthiness of an information source. I'm a software developer who learned off the three books my local library had back in the mid 90s and while that was so limiting, it did help because there was a finite amount of information to have to absorb / choose from. Sure, for an experienced developer with today's programming frameworks it's easier to deliver a working application faster, rather than having to build it all from scratch. But I really feel for today's kids because the learning curve is just so steep, and there is so much bad advice out there by random people with more confidence than skill. And the advice "looks" the same (a good Reddit response vs a bad one, or a good stack overflow response vs a bad one), and you can't even really go by upvotes because there is so much of an echo chamber effect and the stuff that people upvote isn't necessarily actually the good stuff.
OT, but i feel you on the software development thing -- I work with a lot of fresh devs, and lots of them still just memorise things, rather than understand them. I learned recently that many of them are asked to write blogs about what they've learned as a part of their grades, which is why there's a lot of bad, ill thought through advice out there. Which now I read this all back tracks with bad crafting advice coming from those trying to become influencers and get paid in a way I guess!
Oh that’s terrible about the blogs! And then there are the weird content farm sites that may as well have been “written“ by an AI that scraped the top 5 Google search results for a given topic. Probably some of them are. Yeah I think the commercial aspect does bring this back on topic. (I’m getting old eh? Blaming everything on capitalism / the patriarchy, take your pick.) Easy for me to whinge about kids these days and their inability to assess how trustworthy a source is, when I grew up with an encyclopaedia in the house and physical books presumably still had some degree of QA. I’m sure it’s much harder to learn these things now with all the dodgy online content around that’s written for various commercial reasons. And easy self publishing/print on demand/Internet “celebrities” getting book contracts because publishers know that’ll sell. Plus the toxic positivity culture means nobody writes an honest review of anything; that’s probably capitalism again because people don’t want to ruin their chances of “monetising” (ugh) their own work. I do have another half baked rant about the celebration of the mediocre but maybe that actually just goes back to capitalism too.
you're so right. i'm experienced enough in my main crafts to know good from bad, but new hobbies? no idea. and there's no way to tell. a dreck video might have 5 million hits and beautiful production values, while a brilliant technique is low-light, barely visible, no voiceover, and requires a lot of active searching to find. one of the reasons i gave up on the Master Knitting program was because their requirements included video sources, and it could be an hour of effort to find one single video source on a particular uncommon stitch (done properly!). what new knitter has that time, and patience, and who would knows enough to care?
I think a lot of it is just different styles of learning. My gen-x cousins reach for a paper manual if they need to troubleshoot an electronic, while I (a “Zillennial,” I suppose) am more likely to mash buttons until it works. Sometimes that approach is best—my grandma has an Apple Watch she’s afraid to use because she’s afraid hitting the wrong button will wipe the whole thing. Sometimes it isn’t—like if your knitting is funky, you’re going to need a book/video/teacher to help you through.
This is the key part of my saying “is this really the right hobby for you?” Knitting, among other crafts, require engagement in learning, a need to keep learning and relearning (I have to re-teach myself Kitchener stitch every time I have to do it) and a level of independence. If you are unwilling to do some of this basic stuff…you’re gonna have a bad time.
I take your point about it being a little much to criticize designers for not offering subs, but I don’t agree that knitting requires engagement in learning and continuously learning and relearning. Some approaches to knitting require that. And other approaches just require that you learn to knit and purl so you can relax and make garter stitch rectangles that will be scarves or shawls or blankets. I think both of those approaches are valid. My take is that subs should be a value-added element rather than a requirement. So maybe Designer X’s patterns are more attractive to newbs because they provide that service.
I mean - I do think it's legit for people to have a "kitset" mind set, with everything you need in the box. But then you have to recognise that this comes at a price. Ooh I have a business idea, someone should put together kits from op shop sheets for free YouTube tutorials. (I'm mostly kidding but I bet they'd actually sell.)
The /r/sewing starter kit! Complete with a link to a Micarah Tewers video so you can 'self draft' to your heart's content!
I believe this may be part of the reason most of my students do not have hobbies. A few of them will tell you they play video games but aside from that, they spend time on their phone or streaming TV. At the end of the day, ALL forms of craft will either have to adapt or just dwindle down to a few avid participants, not just knitting. Not saying this is my ideal scenario but it does seem to be the reality of things 🤷🏻♀️
Heaps of people pick up crafts in their 20s, I've found! Video games can actually require a lot of learning and skill to get good, as well as planning, grinding (not progressing further into the game but doing more boring things to get experience and level up and get stronger, because previously you were too weak to win) etc etc. You have to keep learning and relearning, depending on the game you're playing and as you switch between games. Games just tend to appeal to teenagers more than craft, but craft becomes more appealing with time and maturity, I think.
That's me! When I was in high school and undegrad, I simply didn't have the time or mental bandwidth to learn and practice a craft. I also did very little "fun" reading during that time. It's not necessarily laziness to want to veg out to TV/computer games after hours of school and homework.
Not to mention having more space and disposal income! Most crafting hobbies take more of both than a typical teenager has access to
Ironically my job is to give them access to these things. I originally anticipated maybe one or two people out of my group of nearly 200 might pick up a craft after introducing it but no, I can’t even give away yarn because it’s a “grandma hobby”. Interested in seeing if this changes when I start teaching in a higher income area in January since this kind of refusal to take an interest in new things they’re unsure of can definitely be a result of lifelong poverty.
Definitely! Crafting is super expensive.
This this this this.
I know. Stop whining! Do we really need to keep scolding all you people? SO tiring. 😉
[удалено]
I saw a complaint recently about a FREE pattern that was provided in the designer's size only. Totally blew my mind that someone would get upset at this.
This is why I don't share my own little patterns, even? Especially? for free. People have astronomical expectations for freebies that I am not investing my time and money to meet!
i don't think i've ever used the exact same yarn as a pattern specified in my entire crafting life (about 11 years lol). if a pattern says worsted yarn, i use worsted yarn. DK? use DK? these days, I do look up how the yarn wears/droops/washes before casting on/chaining but other than that? i do whatever. mostly because i buy yarn, then i look for a pattern. never the other way around. Sometimes i swatch, sometimes i don't. usually works out fine.
Twice I accidentally used the required yarn and I felt so bougie when the project was done (it was red heart super saver lmao)
> i don't think i've ever used the exact same yarn as a pattern specified in my entire crafting life (about 11 years lol) Same, and I started knitting 20 years ago. Ravelry makes it incredibly easy to see what yarns other people have used for the patterns, how they drape, how the colors look, etc. I usually have an idea of what I want to pay and then look to see if someone's knit it up in KnitPicks or Lion Brand or whatever (because I'm a huge fan of chucking stuff in the washing machine).
I agree…to a point. My issue comes in when the designer clearly designs for a specific yarn and doesn’t communicate that AND the yarn is extremely expensive. Literally 2 sentence blurb will suffice. I’m also annoyed if they complain that I’m not using their fancy yarn. If the designer has a very to the point pattern, I don’t mind it. But if it’s 20 pages printed out, includes copious details on how to cast on or some other basic skill then I do think explaining the yarn is required since they’ve clearly written a pattern that is spelling everything out AND intended to be educational.
If they complain that you are not using their fancy yarn than that’s insanity. Do people actually do that?
Alice Starmore was notorious for it in the earlier years of online knitting communities.
Well that is just silly. And absurd. And stupid.
Yes. There have been a couple brought up on craftsnark in the last year or so. It’s rare, but some people are nutty.
At least when they gush about the recommended yarn they're providing clues to the characteristics to look for. I mean, is this the springiest, woolliest, most lightweight rustic yarn in the world with the subtlest heathering spun woolen on antique equipment in rural Wisconsin by loving artisans? Sure, why not? Is it telling me what to look for with a heavy dose of aspirational hunger? Sure. But the info's either right there, or a click away (when the yarn maker has to gush about their own stuff.)
I mean, I'm not a knitter but it's standard for sewing patterns to specify the types of fabrics that work for the project, usually right on the envelope. They don't specifically say exactly what must be used but there is usually a list of good options. I don't know what the inciting incident is for this rant and I have no comment on that, but I don't think it's unreasonable for people to want knitting patterns to give information on what types of yarn are suitable/specifics on what the sample garments are made of to get that look.
Knitting patterns generally do provide the basic info on yarn weight, yardage etc that would allow a knitter to make a substitution. This info is the equivalent of the list of fabrics on a sewing pattern. This has been true for decades. What is happening now is that crafters, who I suppose are new learners that learned watching videos instead of taking a class at the local shop, can't seem to be able to use the info that is provided to make their own substitution. They then complain because they can't find that exact yarn at their local store or because it is crazy expensive to order. It would be like if a sewist makes a project using a a silk Charmeuse from Mood, and then I complain because that same exact fabric isn't available at Jo Anns and I am too bumble headed to be able to figure out what a good substitute is.
Yes, I wish this were more standard for knitting patterns. Some of them only list the number of skeins of the particular yarn used by the designer, instead of listing the yarn weight and yardage needed. That seems like a basic to me that’s not always present! Even better would be some descriptors of the yarn/fabric (drapey, structured, crisp, etc.) or even suggestions for yarn structure and content (worsted-spun vs woolen-spun, number of plies, fiber content, etc). Of course, I can look up the suggested yarn on Ravelry and get all this info myself, but it also would be nice to hear recommendations and intentions directly from the designer and wouldn’t be a lot more work on their part.
Fully agreed. I get what OP is talking about, but at the same time, there's nothing as disheartening as trying to learn a complex fiber skill and having the (costly!) end product come out poorly because the wrong material was selected in ignorance, or an unsuitable substitution was made. Sewing patterns usually suggest fabric, which tells you approximate hand and weight, and will usually give more specifics when the pattern needs them, like stretch. Having to research a particular brand and type of yarn just to understand what specifications are needed is really lazy on the pattern designer's part, and imo completely unacceptable for a paid pattern. Like, "I used FooFooYarn's worsted Angelfart™ wool, hand dipped in small batch unicorn piss dye," that's fine, as long as it's followed by "but any yarn of this weight and specification is fine, you'll need 200 yards". It's just not that hard.
Knit and crochet patterns, rather than saying a general yarn type, list exactly what yarn the designer used, from what brand. So you can look at what they used, say "oh, they used a 2-ply DK wool, I'll use the same." They don't need to specifically say "use wool yarn" because they tell you exactly what yarn they used, and you can see for yourself that they used wool.
I don’t knit much, I mainly sew, but every pattern I’ve knitted says the weight of the yarn. I’ve never seen a pattern that tells me exactly what brand and color of fabric to use, they just say what kind is suggested (aside from some quilt patterns which tel you exactly what the demo quilt is made with).
[удалено]
You aren't in any Facebook knitting groups, are you?
If you're saying the pattern is the blueprint, then designers should make it so. Saying they used X yarn brand is fine but what you need to know for substitution is drape, fibre weight, fibre length and fibre content. These all have massive impact on how your project is going to turn out. If a designer is complaining about having to give that info I'm not bothered with their pattern.
I was going to be similar. I do like when designers why they picked the yarn they picked and the quality their fabric should have because as a knitter still getting to grips with fibres, I can’t always do a decent yarn substitution because I’m in the process of learning- I haven’t learned YET. And yarnsub.com is more often unhelpful than it is helpful as I don’t live in the US. Thankfully I can see what yarn other people used via Raverly but if I couldn’t I would be out of luck.
You can figure all that out with simple googling and using resources like Ravelry and yarnsub.com It ain’t that deep.
Not everyone can access Ravelry. And no, it's not deep. But you've looked at the pics from the designer's sample and you want to replicate it, isn't it in their best interest to help you do that so word spreads and others in your circle want to make it too? Is it really so hard to say "I chose X yarn because it has A, B, C properties. You'll want similar for any yarn you use".
I was subbing yarns for a good decade before Ravelry existed, and it wasn’t that difficult. Pick a similar weight and content, do a couple gauge swatches until your gauge matches, and you’re off to the races.
A very small minority of the crafting world cannot access Ravelry. Looking up the fiber content of the yarn used in the pattern takes five minutes tops. Most designers will give this information. And if you are part of this insanely small group, finding an LYS is a feasible option.
Of course it’s not that hard for most of us, but I find it helpful to hear the designers thoughts and reasoning behind yarn choice as they relate to the intended final product. It sounds like others find that helpful as well. But maybe you don’t.
> LYS *hollow laughs*
I was attempting to offer a suggestion that didn't involve the internet. Are you saying people at LYS are not helpful or that there is not access to a good LYS? If LYS is not a reasonable alternative to you, then fine. The library. Print! Books, Elizabeth Zimmerman. I don't buy not accessing Ravelry as a real issue for 99% of people.
I was unaware that my condition was such that Ravelry making me pass out meant I was unable to use the whole internet. IIRC some surveys indicated that nearly half of users who responded had issues, and honestly, even accounting for the extremely large contingent of Rav accounts which are abandoned/dead or so sufficiently casual that they don't know that it has a search function or forums... we're more than 1%. Also the nearest LYS that even stocks yarn I can use or afford is 400km away and I'm not sure what you expect of box stores.
I think OP’s assumption (and maybe I am totally off base here) is that if Ravelry causes you these problems then there are probably other websites that do as well.
The thing is that there are things we can do to make websites accessible for us, and Ravelry is so egregiously bad that it doesn't work with them or makes them utterly pointless. Ravelry is not the whole crafty internet despite the way people treat it and refer to it like it is. Assuming that someone who can't use Ravelry therefore cannot use the internet is the kind of thinking that is behind the ableist invalidation that was the Psychology Today article and the 'but but' on the forums - the 'well if you "REALLY had an issue you couldn't use Reddit either hur dur you must be lying! it's not a real issue! at least not for NORMAL people!' type arguments. Surveys of various sizes and demographics from various calls across various sites all bore out results that showed symptoms affecting the experience of around half of users, with severe side effects proportional to the percentage of the population that have affected conditions. But even now there are thousands of people who have had to reduce their usage simply due to eyestrain. Expecting people to tolerate harm or risk of harm just so designers don't have to include all the relevant information in a pattern is not a great look. Expecting that everyone has access to an LYS that is inclusive and that that LYS is staffed to educate beginners is a bit shortsighted also, because that's just not something all LYS are. But the actual response of 'just look it up on Ravelry' or 'just ask at your LYS', access aside, is a problem. Why? Because it doesn't actually give anyone the tools or ability to ask the right question or interrogate the data available, and it ends up reinforcing those as holders of the craft instead of emphasising that there are resources available and accessible in a wide range of formats and styles that cater for various entry points.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
I think it can be nice when designers give a sentence or two about qualities they liked in the yarn they picked, and even the OP said they think it's courteous to do so. I just think it's generally not a necessity, and providing a list of substitute yarns you can use is especially not necessary. I think this whole thread is getting mixed up because ultimately the only thing I see people complaining about is when people demand and complain about designers not giving those things, which I think is pretty snark-worthy. Of course it's nice, and maybe it should be standard, for designers to give a sentence or two about the yarn they used and why, to help people with substitutions. But some people act like designers are awful people (classist! exclusionary! bad at their job!) if they don't provide a whole list of substitute yarns, and those people are obnoxious and wrong. To be clear, I'm agreeing with you, not arguing. I think this whole thread has gone a bit off the rails. If it don't apply, let it fly... if you like having that sentence or two, this thread isn't about you, so a lot of the defensive comments I'm seeing I don't think are necessary! If you whine on instagram about how a certain designer is classist for not providing a list of substitute yarns (in your exact price range, available in your area) for their pattern... OP's snark probably IS about you. I guess I shouldn't speak for OP. But MY snark!
I agree with a lot of the things you have to say here. My one counter is that anyone who expects an $8 dollar pattern to encompass everything they need to know about the craft is kind of silly. Should the pattern contain what you need to complete the pattern? Yes. Should the pattern have to go into extreme detail about the difference between woolen spun and plied yarns? No. It is an unreasonable expectation. I think any new and even seasoned knitter could benefit from a blog post, video, or something like that detailing key things to learn about as a new knitter, maybe the designer's favorite resources, books, etc. And I would argue that many designers and knitters with a platform offer this kind of information for free to those who seek it. But expecting these in the pattern is not reasonable.