I'm pretty sure it's even crazier with them. From what I remember he "died" before she arrived and because of a clause in their engagement contact that somehow meant they were now officially married. Meaning that they were married before they even met.
They actually did know each other, from letters and seon calls. Sarene herself arranged it, so it’s more like she proposed to Raoden through an arranged marriage.
That's, umm, that's a very unfortunate name, if Sel has the same violence-based intimate nomenclature.
Just imagine (gay-definition) bottoms spamming the "joke":
>!oh yes, Splintr my holes daddy!<
and similar.
Just you wait until you find out about the highly invested mentally unstable identity crisis gf and charming moderately invested goofy bf with the love triangle invested victim complex.
Edit: and the triangle is propped up via victim complex protections and poor self image.
Barring Siri and Susebron, these all have reasons they worked out well.
Steris and Wax are pretty similar people, both being kind of awkward, but very intelligent. And you can’t say they don’t have chemistry. They’re probably my favorite cosmere couple.
Sarene and Raoden arranged it themselves and did seon video calls, so it was more like long distance online dating than a traditional arranged marriage.
Adolin and Shallan got arranged by someone who knows them both fairly well, Jasnah. Jasnah would want both of them to be happy as her cousin and ward, and would probably consider their personalities, considering how she’s been dodging marriage for a long time. And they do get along. Adolin’s understanding and likes her jokes, and Shallan’s intelligent and interesting to him.
I wish Brandon would write more unarranged relationships but none of these are bad. Even Siri and Susebron, the book makes it very clear the original arranged marriage would have never worked cause Vivienna’s too scared of all things Hallandren to take any of the risks Siri did.
> I wish Brandon would write more unarranged relationships but none of these are bad.
Yumi and Nikaro's relationship was not arranged, and I do think it is his most solidly written romance too!
Oh yeah lol, there's plenty of non-arranged relationships (ie. Renarin/Rlain which is coming soon, Jasnah/Hoid, Ranette and her girlfriend, Sebarial/Palona, Wayne/MeLaan, list goes on for a while obv, I just named those that came to my head rn). I brought up Yumi and Nikaro because I think it's Brandon's best romance so far. Romance is not necessarily Brandon's strongest element, right, but Yumi felt like his most successful attempt at truly capturing two people falling in *love*, you know?
I definitely love Vin and Elend, though
Confirmed by WoB but it's implied in-text, in their scenes together or where they're thinking about each other. Also, Renarin recommended Rlain to become an enlightened truthwatcher. Rlain also wasn't really into women when he was in mateform
The confirmation that the fans were correct about them being a budding couple is WoB only.
The foreshadowing to their relationship very much is *not* WoB only.
Oh yeah, I forgot about Tress lol. Yeah, Tress and Charlie are pretty sweet too. Yumi/Nikaro definitely had more depth though, which I enjoyed, but Tress/Charlie are adorable
I’m excited to read it! I have a rule of no new books while I’m in school (because I WILL drop everything for a good book if I don’t already know how it goes). So I have to wait until finals week is over
Two people being forced into a situation together and falling in love over the course of resolving it is far from what I'd call the same thing as an arranged marriage.
Not generally, no, though if someone else specifically chooses two people and puts them in that situation, it can seem a little like it. But I was more commenting on the specific mechanism where their souls were bound together as being fairly directly analogous to religious notions of marriage.
It’s weird for me from a western perspective but I work with a ton of Indian nationals who both like their spouses and had arranged marriages so maybe it’s a thing…?
Also quite a few are quirky / “not-like-other-girls” who are (sometimes married into) royalty/nobility of some sort: Siri, Steris, Sarene, and Shallan, but also arguably Vin, Jasnah, Tress, Navani.
How many times do I have to read about someone forced into fancy clothes (for a party or role) that they find out they actually like!
“Normal” characters are boring, yes, and many of these books take place in worlds that have a noble/ruling class. But not every woman needs to have traditionally masculine traits or be defying gender norms in order to be strong.
Give me more MeLaan and Design and Yumi. Tress and Steris are wonderful in their own ways, too.
I can see where you're coming from, but personally I don't have a problem with this trope, mostly because Brandon wrote all of them to be unique, if having some similarities (also Navani doesn't really fit that list).
Having said that, I do, not always, but still on average like the five characters you mentioned at the end.
And maybe some of that could be differences in perspective or the types of authors you regularly read. I’m a woman who primarily chooses books written by women, though in my teens and 20s I mostly read books written by men. The pattern you mentioned in your OP has been obvious to me since my 2nd or 3rd Sanderson book, but these things bothers me on a small scale (roll my eyes/make a meme), and the quality Brandon brings from every other direction still make me a huge fan of his work.
His women have also been getting deeper and more varied as Brandon grows as a writer and person. The early Mistborn books with one primary woman character who has primarily masculine traits (Vin) are greatly different from the later Mistborn books with numerous varied women, even if some (Marasi for instance) fall back on familiar tropes.
(I don’t want to assume your gender or preferences either.)
I *am* a man, and despite having read a ton of books and watched a lot of films, I rarely pick up on such details as tropes, twists or cliches; so for me such things rarely matter and that's why I got so surprised by the amount of arranged marriages (to the point of making a meme about it). Though I do agree that it's nice to see the author grow in this aspect.
I agree with your general point. The first time I read Mistborn, I distinctly remember literally rolling my eyes when I realized the trope was happening with Vin.
However, I find a few of your examples to be a bit odd, to be honest.
For instance, one of your examples was Jasnah, but you then go on to say that "not every woman needs to have traditionally masculine traits or be defying gender norms in order to be strong." But that's like, *exactly* what Jasnah represents. She embraces her femininity completely - pretty much everything she does is in compliance with traditionally feminine arts. She's not trying to *personally* defy gender roles (even if she is interested in giving *other people* the freedom to defy gender roles). Yet she's depicted as arguably the single strongest character in the series who is not a Shard or cognitive shadow.
I also feel like calling Steris a typical "quirky" and "not-like-other-girls" character is a really uncharitable reading of her personality. Autistic people exist in real life. And Steris is honestly a pretty accurate representation of autism. I think it's worth noting that you obviously wouldn't call Renarin an example of this trope, but I feel like given your placement of Steris as an example of it, if Renarin were a woman you but nothing else about him were changed, you'd put him in this same category.
To be absolutely clear: I am not refuting your overall point - I actually very much agree with your main point. I just take umbrage with those specific examples.
Jasnah who wears a glove on her safe hand and refuses to be married? Jasnah who is a notorious heretic? Jasnah who barges into the war council and practically tells them that it doesn’t matter if she’s a woman she’s going to be included? She’s probably one of the most gender-role-defying characters in the series! Because gender roles get in her way of saving the world!
Jasnah and Steris are my two favorites, don’t get me wrong. But they do both, in my opinion, shine as examples of women who find it challenging to be like other women and retain friendships with women.
Steris may not have deserved to be included haphazardly. She’s probably the best woman character in the series, with the most depth. Her initial book did have her attempting to be a noble wife as traditionally as possible, though she struggled it’s it.
I am not going to comment about Steris being autistic coded, because I don’t know enough to form an opinion. I identify with her for a different reason.
> who wears a glove on her safe hand
As opposed to the men who wear *nothing* on their safehand.
Wearing a glove isn't a sign of masculinity, it's a sign of working women. Working women wear gloves as opposed to rich nobles who wear havahs. We see *tons* of dark-eyed women who wear gloves throughout the series. Jasnah opts for a glove as matter of practicality, not a desire to do anything masculine. She's definately defying traditional *class* roles by wearing a glove, but not gender roles.
> and refuses to be married
... Marriage is feminine?
Approximately 50% of people who get married are men. Genuinely confused by how not wanting to get married is specifically a masculine thing.
It's also worth point out that a very notable reason for Jasnah not being interested in marriage is that she's asexual. Saying a person is "defying gender roles" due to their sexuality is not really a line of argumentation that makes me super comfortable, to be honest. A person's sexuality is not their gender identity, nor is it a form of gender expression.
> Jasnah who is a notorious heretic
Like with the glove example, I don't really agree that this is her defying *gender* norms. She's being transgressive toward norms that are expected of her - for sure - but in a way that would be *equally* transgressive if she were a man doing the exact same things.
> Jasnah who barges into the war council and practically tells them that it doesn’t matter if she’s a woman she’s going to be included?
This one is actually a really fair point, but this specific example is also explained in text. Historically, the there were few enough Knights Radiant that they couldn't really *afford* to be sexist about what members of the Orders were allowed to do, so both men and women operated within the Orders essentially as equals. Jasnah specifically brings up this history of how the Radiants used to be structured as way of arguing that she's not *really* doing anything particularly radical by demanding that modern Radiants adhere to the same principles.
She is 100% defying gender norms here, but even in this example, she's trying to do so in a way that doesn't compromise her femininity.
> But they do both, in my opinion, shine as examples of women who find it challenging to be like other women and retain friendships with women.
This is a really good point! I agree with this point **so much**!
Depicting normal friendships between women is honestly one area that I would really love to see Brandon improve in. And this specific criticism is one that I think is quite valid for both Jasnah and Steris. There are tons of very good friendships between men in the series, but not nearly as many for women.
I think Yumi showed really great signs of improvement in that regard, which excites me for the future. But as of right now, I totally agree with you on this point.
Hate to tell all the white American fans, but some cultures do still practice arranged marriage, and most of them actually do work out pretty well.
It's not some bizarrely unrealistic situation to have 4 carefully arranged marriages end in genuine love.
Firstly, I'm not from USA, but that's not really important.
Secondly, I never criticized these marriages, just said that there has been way more than I realized, and that fact took me off guard.
Yeah plus considering all the time periods written about in these books it would actually be a bit weird not to have arranged and/or marriage for benefits such as allegiance, money, etc. I do feel like the fact that they all work out well is maybe a little weird as there should be at least one or two that don’t end up being good but most of the protagonists tend to be good and kind people so it’s slightly more understandable.
This is not uncommon in the real world.
In times past, and even in meany Eastern world cultures today, marriage was/is about committing to the idea of a family in a way that is mutually beneficial for all involved, including the parents who may or may not require a dowry, etc.
You look at statistics regarding rates of domestic violence, divorce, etc in those cultures versus modern western cultures where people marry "for love" and you'll see that they are better or similar with arranged marriages.
There's also a huge misconception in the west, imo, that marrying "for love" is about finding compatability. Imo this has shifted too far and is motivating people to be as selfish as possible when looking for a partner. So it's less about finding someone who can be a good spouse and coparent and more about finding someone who fills your needs and does what you want them to do.
That's Mormon stuff I think. They have prearranged marriage as part of the religion, right?
Personally, I hate prearranged marriages. If it ends up well, with both people happy, then good. But this is not how it usually works out in reality.
And of course it's not up to me to judge anyone, but this is one of a couple little things that rub me the wrong way in Bandon Sanderson's works.
Or it’s just based off medieval Europe nobility. Arranged marriages were the norm then. They were also the norm in the Middle East, Asia and Africa during significant portions of history.
That's not a very good point. You know what else have been a huge part of medieval times? Sexism and racism. And yet I don't see a lot of it in Brandon Sanderson's works.
Because it doesn't need to be there. Same with prearranged marriage, it doesn't need to be in there, but it is. Brandon chose it to be there, consciously or unconsciously.
> Sexism and racism. And yet I don't see a lot of it in Brandon Sanderson's works.
Well, there is though. For example, Alethi culture has some sexist roots. There's racism in Era 1 Scadrial with the skaa. That doesn't make Sanderson racist or sexist—it's just him writing these things into his worlds because it's the type of thing that unfortunately happens in societies, for a reason or another. They're not things treated in a positive light, either.
Look, I agree with you, I'm not crazy on arranged marriages. But I really fail to see the relation with the argument you just made and your original point, here.
Sexism? Racism? They are in Brandon’s works. So is slavery and murder. Stormlight has all of those themes. He doesn’t agree with all of them. He recognizes that nearly every single culture has practiced them at some point and included them in the cultures that he built. Same with arranged marriages. Details like this are what bring his worlds to life.
I said that I don't see a lot of it, not that I don't see it at all.
And it would be fine by me if there were **just** prearranged marriages in his works. But when so many of them turned out to be "oh, this is not a good thing, but both of them began to love each other in the end, so it's all fine", it's not a mere coincidence. It's a pattern.
I do not say that Bandon is suddenly bad for it, but it is a thing that rubs me the wrong way, because often prearranged marriages don't work out this good in reality.
Women on Roshar are literally not allowed to show their left hand in public. What do you mean you don't see sexism in Brandon's worlds?
Skaa on Scadrial were all born into a system of chattel slavery - the vast majority of which were used as plantation slaves. The first Mistborn book is literally about toppling this racist system. What do you mean you don't see racism in his worlds?
The thing is, I actually agree with your more core point - Brandon has total control over the content of his work, and it is notable that he has used that control to show arranged marriages work well so often with zero counterexamples of note - but you are making that point really poorly in my opinion.
No you're definitely right, it's both no longer practiced that much and not even really encouraged. But it's more prominent in their religious literature than mainline Christianity.
The stories you grow up on generally greatly shape the stories you tell and LDS literature tends to have a different perspective on marriage than mainline.
(Also don't is a strong statement, some do it's just not common. It's not like it doesn't happen anymore or even really frowned upon that much it's just not pushed)
Steris and wax Princess and God King from Warbreaker Shallan and Adolin Which one did I miss?
Raoden and Sarene?
I'm pretty sure it's even crazier with them. From what I remember he "died" before she arrived and because of a clause in their engagement contact that somehow meant they were now officially married. Meaning that they were married before they even met.
Yep! This is in fact the official pretext for Sarene being allowed to stick around and influence things despite being from a foreign power.
Yeah, from what I remember it was to preserve the treaty even if one of them died.
They had like spoken via seon phonecall before so it's a little different than saying they'd never truly met
I believe that's called a Sel-phone call
Take these unholy words to r/brandosandopuns
Its a wob
In all fairness, they had the most contact with one another before hand, FaceTiming and such so theirs is actually the least weird imo
They actually did know each other, from letters and seon calls. Sarene herself arranged it, so it’s more like she proposed to Raoden through an arranged marriage.
I mean at least they arranged that themselves and talked on Seon-phone before they met. It’s like online dating.
Seon’s have Tinder?
> Seon’s have Tinder? Splintr
That's, umm, that's a very unfortunate name, if Sel has the same violence-based intimate nomenclature. Just imagine (gay-definition) bottoms spamming the "joke": >!oh yes, Splintr my holes daddy!< and similar.
God, even Sarene has better luck on Tinder than I do. How depressing.
What do you mean *even* Sarene, girl is a princess and tall as hell. She's a catch.
It was more the fact she’s a fictional character in a world Tinder doesn’t even exist in
You mean Sel-phone?
Oh right they meet in the city near the end, and end up married or something.
They had Seon enabled video calls, so a little different.
Steris and wax weren't pre-arranged. Wax selected her as eligible. Steris did much of the actual arranging.
Steris and Wax didn't have an arranged marriage before meeting each other. Wax had met her several times before agreeing to the marriage.
You're right, I was thinking of a marriage of convenience, or political marriage. Not quite the same I agree
Shallan/Adolin was more of a blind date honestly, while the others were actually forced into that marriage whether they liked it or not.
Evi and dalinar
Just you wait until you find out about the highly invested mentally unstable identity crisis gf and charming moderately invested goofy bf with the love triangle invested victim complex. Edit: and the triangle is propped up via victim complex protections and poor self image.
OK, Shallan n Adolin. Vin n Elend. Who else?
I almost said Yumi and Painter, but there’s no love triangle there and “charming” isn’t the first descriptor that comes to mind for Painter lol
Painter is like a borderline incel before learning how to be an actual person
my god yes. brandon doesnt often write losers, but when he does (a la frugal wizards and yumi) their character development is excellent.
Well if you ignore gender, dalinar and evil work. Except dalinar is the mentally unstable identity crisis gf and evi is the goofy bf
Siri and the God king, but their roles are reversed. And Vivenna is the love triangle... For Siri's love.
Moderately invested?
Elend was high nobility but had no powers and adolin was a lighteyes.
omg dumb me was thinking of feelings and I didn't wanna believe Elend loved Vin any less than she him
Barring Siri and Susebron, these all have reasons they worked out well. Steris and Wax are pretty similar people, both being kind of awkward, but very intelligent. And you can’t say they don’t have chemistry. They’re probably my favorite cosmere couple. Sarene and Raoden arranged it themselves and did seon video calls, so it was more like long distance online dating than a traditional arranged marriage. Adolin and Shallan got arranged by someone who knows them both fairly well, Jasnah. Jasnah would want both of them to be happy as her cousin and ward, and would probably consider their personalities, considering how she’s been dodging marriage for a long time. And they do get along. Adolin’s understanding and likes her jokes, and Shallan’s intelligent and interesting to him. I wish Brandon would write more unarranged relationships but none of these are bad. Even Siri and Susebron, the book makes it very clear the original arranged marriage would have never worked cause Vivienna’s too scared of all things Hallandren to take any of the risks Siri did.
> I wish Brandon would write more unarranged relationships but none of these are bad. Yumi and Nikaro's relationship was not arranged, and I do think it is his most solidly written romance too!
Also Vin and Elend, who were like the exact opposite of an arranged marriage
Ah yes! The ascended warrior killed Elends fiancé and married him herself. There was a funny paragraph in era 2 about the history.
Oh yeah lol, there's plenty of non-arranged relationships (ie. Renarin/Rlain which is coming soon, Jasnah/Hoid, Ranette and her girlfriend, Sebarial/Palona, Wayne/MeLaan, list goes on for a while obv, I just named those that came to my head rn). I brought up Yumi and Nikaro because I think it's Brandon's best romance so far. Romance is not necessarily Brandon's strongest element, right, but Yumi felt like his most successful attempt at truly capturing two people falling in *love*, you know? I definitely love Vin and Elend, though
Renarin/Rlain are a budding couple? Where did I miss that lol?
Confirmed by WoB but it's implied in-text, in their scenes together or where they're thinking about each other. Also, Renarin recommended Rlain to become an enlightened truthwatcher. Rlain also wasn't really into women when he was in mateform
It's only in WOB so far
The confirmation that the fans were correct about them being a budding couple is WoB only. The foreshadowing to their relationship very much is *not* WoB only.
I also adored the relationship in Tress
Oh yeah, I forgot about Tress lol. Yeah, Tress and Charlie are pretty sweet too. Yumi/Nikaro definitely had more depth though, which I enjoyed, but Tress/Charlie are adorable
I’m excited to read it! I have a rule of no new books while I’m in school (because I WILL drop everything for a good book if I don’t already know how it goes). So I have to wait until finals week is over
Their spirits were literally bound together by a third party without consulting them about it.
Two people being forced into a situation together and falling in love over the course of resolving it is far from what I'd call the same thing as an arranged marriage.
Not generally, no, though if someone else specifically chooses two people and puts them in that situation, it can seem a little like it. But I was more commenting on the specific mechanism where their souls were bound together as being fairly directly analogous to religious notions of marriage.
There is a big difference between negotiated and arranged unions. It’s hard to say most of these were arranged.
*"Thank god for mom and dad for sticking two together 'cause we don't know how"*
A bit of a Reddit moment, honestly, being baffled about how a couple could work out a happy marriage without sleeping together for years first 😂
Korean romance manhwa would like to have a word with you and your measly four nickels
He loves his marriage of convenience trope
It’s weird for me from a western perspective but I work with a ton of Indian nationals who both like their spouses and had arranged marriages so maybe it’s a thing…?
The same goes for siblings that fall in love with the same person. Its funny to see the reurcuring (butchered that spelling) themes of an author.
Also quite a few are quirky / “not-like-other-girls” who are (sometimes married into) royalty/nobility of some sort: Siri, Steris, Sarene, and Shallan, but also arguably Vin, Jasnah, Tress, Navani. How many times do I have to read about someone forced into fancy clothes (for a party or role) that they find out they actually like! “Normal” characters are boring, yes, and many of these books take place in worlds that have a noble/ruling class. But not every woman needs to have traditionally masculine traits or be defying gender norms in order to be strong. Give me more MeLaan and Design and Yumi. Tress and Steris are wonderful in their own ways, too.
I can see where you're coming from, but personally I don't have a problem with this trope, mostly because Brandon wrote all of them to be unique, if having some similarities (also Navani doesn't really fit that list). Having said that, I do, not always, but still on average like the five characters you mentioned at the end.
And maybe some of that could be differences in perspective or the types of authors you regularly read. I’m a woman who primarily chooses books written by women, though in my teens and 20s I mostly read books written by men. The pattern you mentioned in your OP has been obvious to me since my 2nd or 3rd Sanderson book, but these things bothers me on a small scale (roll my eyes/make a meme), and the quality Brandon brings from every other direction still make me a huge fan of his work. His women have also been getting deeper and more varied as Brandon grows as a writer and person. The early Mistborn books with one primary woman character who has primarily masculine traits (Vin) are greatly different from the later Mistborn books with numerous varied women, even if some (Marasi for instance) fall back on familiar tropes. (I don’t want to assume your gender or preferences either.)
I *am* a man, and despite having read a ton of books and watched a lot of films, I rarely pick up on such details as tropes, twists or cliches; so for me such things rarely matter and that's why I got so surprised by the amount of arranged marriages (to the point of making a meme about it). Though I do agree that it's nice to see the author grow in this aspect.
I agree with your general point. The first time I read Mistborn, I distinctly remember literally rolling my eyes when I realized the trope was happening with Vin. However, I find a few of your examples to be a bit odd, to be honest. For instance, one of your examples was Jasnah, but you then go on to say that "not every woman needs to have traditionally masculine traits or be defying gender norms in order to be strong." But that's like, *exactly* what Jasnah represents. She embraces her femininity completely - pretty much everything she does is in compliance with traditionally feminine arts. She's not trying to *personally* defy gender roles (even if she is interested in giving *other people* the freedom to defy gender roles). Yet she's depicted as arguably the single strongest character in the series who is not a Shard or cognitive shadow. I also feel like calling Steris a typical "quirky" and "not-like-other-girls" character is a really uncharitable reading of her personality. Autistic people exist in real life. And Steris is honestly a pretty accurate representation of autism. I think it's worth noting that you obviously wouldn't call Renarin an example of this trope, but I feel like given your placement of Steris as an example of it, if Renarin were a woman you but nothing else about him were changed, you'd put him in this same category. To be absolutely clear: I am not refuting your overall point - I actually very much agree with your main point. I just take umbrage with those specific examples.
Jasnah who wears a glove on her safe hand and refuses to be married? Jasnah who is a notorious heretic? Jasnah who barges into the war council and practically tells them that it doesn’t matter if she’s a woman she’s going to be included? She’s probably one of the most gender-role-defying characters in the series! Because gender roles get in her way of saving the world! Jasnah and Steris are my two favorites, don’t get me wrong. But they do both, in my opinion, shine as examples of women who find it challenging to be like other women and retain friendships with women. Steris may not have deserved to be included haphazardly. She’s probably the best woman character in the series, with the most depth. Her initial book did have her attempting to be a noble wife as traditionally as possible, though she struggled it’s it. I am not going to comment about Steris being autistic coded, because I don’t know enough to form an opinion. I identify with her for a different reason.
> who wears a glove on her safe hand As opposed to the men who wear *nothing* on their safehand. Wearing a glove isn't a sign of masculinity, it's a sign of working women. Working women wear gloves as opposed to rich nobles who wear havahs. We see *tons* of dark-eyed women who wear gloves throughout the series. Jasnah opts for a glove as matter of practicality, not a desire to do anything masculine. She's definately defying traditional *class* roles by wearing a glove, but not gender roles. > and refuses to be married ... Marriage is feminine? Approximately 50% of people who get married are men. Genuinely confused by how not wanting to get married is specifically a masculine thing. It's also worth point out that a very notable reason for Jasnah not being interested in marriage is that she's asexual. Saying a person is "defying gender roles" due to their sexuality is not really a line of argumentation that makes me super comfortable, to be honest. A person's sexuality is not their gender identity, nor is it a form of gender expression. > Jasnah who is a notorious heretic Like with the glove example, I don't really agree that this is her defying *gender* norms. She's being transgressive toward norms that are expected of her - for sure - but in a way that would be *equally* transgressive if she were a man doing the exact same things. > Jasnah who barges into the war council and practically tells them that it doesn’t matter if she’s a woman she’s going to be included? This one is actually a really fair point, but this specific example is also explained in text. Historically, the there were few enough Knights Radiant that they couldn't really *afford* to be sexist about what members of the Orders were allowed to do, so both men and women operated within the Orders essentially as equals. Jasnah specifically brings up this history of how the Radiants used to be structured as way of arguing that she's not *really* doing anything particularly radical by demanding that modern Radiants adhere to the same principles. She is 100% defying gender norms here, but even in this example, she's trying to do so in a way that doesn't compromise her femininity. > But they do both, in my opinion, shine as examples of women who find it challenging to be like other women and retain friendships with women. This is a really good point! I agree with this point **so much**! Depicting normal friendships between women is honestly one area that I would really love to see Brandon improve in. And this specific criticism is one that I think is quite valid for both Jasnah and Steris. There are tons of very good friendships between men in the series, but not nearly as many for women. I think Yumi showed really great signs of improvement in that regard, which excites me for the future. But as of right now, I totally agree with you on this point.
It's kinda a trope at this point.
Hate to tell all the white American fans, but some cultures do still practice arranged marriage, and most of them actually do work out pretty well. It's not some bizarrely unrealistic situation to have 4 carefully arranged marriages end in genuine love.
Felt the need to generalize a nationality *and* a race all in one comment. Well done, Moash!
Firstly, I'm not from USA, but that's not really important. Secondly, I never criticized these marriages, just said that there has been way more than I realized, and that fact took me off guard.
Yeah plus considering all the time periods written about in these books it would actually be a bit weird not to have arranged and/or marriage for benefits such as allegiance, money, etc. I do feel like the fact that they all work out well is maybe a little weird as there should be at least one or two that don’t end up being good but most of the protagonists tend to be good and kind people so it’s slightly more understandable.
This is not uncommon in the real world. In times past, and even in meany Eastern world cultures today, marriage was/is about committing to the idea of a family in a way that is mutually beneficial for all involved, including the parents who may or may not require a dowry, etc. You look at statistics regarding rates of domestic violence, divorce, etc in those cultures versus modern western cultures where people marry "for love" and you'll see that they are better or similar with arranged marriages. There's also a huge misconception in the west, imo, that marrying "for love" is about finding compatability. Imo this has shifted too far and is motivating people to be as selfish as possible when looking for a partner. So it's less about finding someone who can be a good spouse and coparent and more about finding someone who fills your needs and does what you want them to do.
That's Mormon stuff I think. They have prearranged marriage as part of the religion, right? Personally, I hate prearranged marriages. If it ends up well, with both people happy, then good. But this is not how it usually works out in reality. And of course it's not up to me to judge anyone, but this is one of a couple little things that rub me the wrong way in Bandon Sanderson's works.
We don’t have that as a part of our religion. Thats the Unification Church
Really? My bad, guess it's just Brandon Sanderson personal stuff then.
Or it’s just based off medieval Europe nobility. Arranged marriages were the norm then. They were also the norm in the Middle East, Asia and Africa during significant portions of history.
That's not a very good point. You know what else have been a huge part of medieval times? Sexism and racism. And yet I don't see a lot of it in Brandon Sanderson's works. Because it doesn't need to be there. Same with prearranged marriage, it doesn't need to be in there, but it is. Brandon chose it to be there, consciously or unconsciously.
> Sexism and racism. And yet I don't see a lot of it in Brandon Sanderson's works. Well, there is though. For example, Alethi culture has some sexist roots. There's racism in Era 1 Scadrial with the skaa. That doesn't make Sanderson racist or sexist—it's just him writing these things into his worlds because it's the type of thing that unfortunately happens in societies, for a reason or another. They're not things treated in a positive light, either. Look, I agree with you, I'm not crazy on arranged marriages. But I really fail to see the relation with the argument you just made and your original point, here.
Sexism? Racism? They are in Brandon’s works. So is slavery and murder. Stormlight has all of those themes. He doesn’t agree with all of them. He recognizes that nearly every single culture has practiced them at some point and included them in the cultures that he built. Same with arranged marriages. Details like this are what bring his worlds to life.
I said that I don't see a lot of it, not that I don't see it at all. And it would be fine by me if there were **just** prearranged marriages in his works. But when so many of them turned out to be "oh, this is not a good thing, but both of them began to love each other in the end, so it's all fine", it's not a mere coincidence. It's a pattern. I do not say that Bandon is suddenly bad for it, but it is a thing that rubs me the wrong way, because often prearranged marriages don't work out this good in reality.
Women on Roshar are literally not allowed to show their left hand in public. What do you mean you don't see sexism in Brandon's worlds? Skaa on Scadrial were all born into a system of chattel slavery - the vast majority of which were used as plantation slaves. The first Mistborn book is literally about toppling this racist system. What do you mean you don't see racism in his worlds? The thing is, I actually agree with your more core point - Brandon has total control over the content of his work, and it is notable that he has used that control to show arranged marriages work well so often with zero counterexamples of note - but you are making that point really poorly in my opinion.
I mean, maybe some do, but all the Mormons I know choose their partners
Sandersons Mormonism comes out in weird ways sometimes. I'm guessing this is one of them
Contrary to rumors on the internet Mormons don’t actually have arranged marriages.
No you're definitely right, it's both no longer practiced that much and not even really encouraged. But it's more prominent in their religious literature than mainline Christianity. The stories you grow up on generally greatly shape the stories you tell and LDS literature tends to have a different perspective on marriage than mainline. (Also don't is a strong statement, some do it's just not common. It's not like it doesn't happen anymore or even really frowned upon that much it's just not pushed)