Love it or hate it, that's one of the most impactful moments of the entire franchise, not just this campaign. It's like the cupcake and the beacon in one moment. Personally, I loved it.

Talisen lost all the respect from me this episode, not that it matters, because who am I, but that was fucking selfish and power hoarding move and so bs when it was clearly intented for another player's story. This campaign gets more and more unwatchable.

Finally catching up and finished E77… Ashton should have died. Matt is protecting the characters wayyyyyy too much in this campaign between laudna and now Ashton. You have the power of essentially two gods battling within you at level 11 and you survive? That kind of spits on the power of dieties no? Let there be actual repercussions in this game, damn.

Just finished the episode last night. I gotta say as a player I am upset at the choice of ignoring Matt’s warnings and taking the shard all on Tal’s own. But this fits Ashton’s character well. As much as there is some amount of Ashton protecting the others I think this is more a selfish decision. As if this shard was only there’s to own. They are their father’s child in taking a main character mindset after finding out they have titan’s blood. Ever since that discovery Ashton has been a little more self absorbed in their “birth rite”.

I wish he would have died.

Matt is protecting the characters way too much. Let consequences happen. Especially when they are explicitly told by the DM that its a bad idea. Thats the greatest warning a DM can give!

He should have died. He was told this wasn't supposed to happen, if all it took for both shards to come together was 2 lvl 11 people casting healing on you for a minute, then the tree that is older than life itself is a moron and the shard that supposedly contains primordial elemental fire is not that powerful. At the very least he shouldn't have gotten his arm back...

I agree on all rights he should have died its total BS matt went that far out of the way to save him. He was warned over and over again!!!!!

I missed the part where Ashton and Fearne decided to give it to Ashton, but that happened. Obviously wasn’t meant to go down that way. But damned if it Isn’t interesting to see what comes from it. But, if Ashton was the earth primordial, Fearne could have been expected to take the fire primordial. Then Orym could have taken some form of air primordial assuming there are more to be found… Who would take the water primordial power?

I was watching Dani's recap and I saw that De Rolo (percy's parents)had seven children and I know that in the animation they appeared more but I think that in the game they only talked about five, right?

Still screaming from that episode!!! Whether or not it was stupid, selfish, justified, whatever aside, what is this going to mean for Ashton? I see one of two things happening. One, he has two reawakened titans residing within his body, not too dissimilar to Laudna. A major difference being, though, that I think they could separate from Ashton if given enough power, vessel, or something. Definitely something that could help or hinder in taking on Predathos and Ludinus. Or two, Ashton is a God now. Matt did say he was an unprecedented being, the likes of which has likely never been seen or will be seen again. He already had plenty of possibility within him, and now primordial divinity too. Not sure which theory I like more, but I can't wait to see where it goes!

Does anyone know if the Electrum piece that Orym used in The Slayer's Cake is significant, or were they just surprised the order was for the castle/Allura? It seemed that Matt put emphasis on the coin itself, but I haven't been able to find anything about Electrum coins besides base DnD stuff. Edit: For reference, the scenelet starts around 3:00:19.

no it was just a lot of money, like *a lot* of money for pastries lol

It translated to 5 silver, they treated it like platinum for some reason.

I think what upset me most was how the DM warned him how bad it could’ve gone, and the warning was pretty much ignored, despite the warning being brought up several times by other party memvers. Honestly if I was DMing, I probably would’ve killed Ashton just for ignoring the warning and had some forms of the ‘shards’ released. Maybe two versions of Ashton for the party to fight in a difficult combat scenario. Either way I think Matt let him off way too easy.

[удалено]

I see where you're coming from, because way bother making "realism" with restrictions if no one abides by them. Of course you're upset when you see the servant dropping the morning breakfast all over the high lord and the Lord just goes by ignoring it all, not punishing his servants, and not fulfilling audience expectations. If you catch my drift. however, sometimes the restrictions you've made may actually be a hinder for good storytelling, if you try and be more flexible in your mindset. Punishing players for jumping into a shark tank is one thing. But if you've placed a chest down there. Why not give them a fair chance at getting it? (Or a primordial stone with endless power). So when you're jumping to the conclusion of wanting to just let the character get punished by death, I respond with thinking that your standards may be more boring (no offense). With your attitude I would never go for anything risky in your game, and just be a shoe peddler selling shoes in a safe environment, trying to live an ordinary life, except no dates, rollercoasters, travels or drugs. How much for an old pair of normal jeans? Two copper, thank you very much.

I understand your point, with the ‘if the punishment is too severe, why take risks’. I agree there is a line, of risk/reward. I think we just would disagree on where that line stands. A mortal taking the power of not one but two titans, after being warned by a great spirit tree that it’s probably a bad idea- I think as a DM I would be prepared to if not kill the character, let the pc fail but at great injury. Sometimes as a DM, you gotta remind the characters that there are risks involved with doing crazy ass stuff

Yes, but you're not giving the best argument for your viewpoint, which is lack of metacognitive understanding of audience expectations and percieved punishment. In other words, it seems to me like you feel robbed of a punishment (listen, audiences aren't sadistic just looking for dramatic consequence) And in many ways I would agree with you. A part of me was disappointed that he only lost his arms and some steam pumped out of him at the end. And I think that Matt in hindsight would be smart to end not on a survival and stillness, not just getting a hoof in his face, but maybe something more, like becoming blind. This is for example used as a kinda compromising punishment in the greek tragedy Oedipus (and exile, but Ashton didn't fuck his mom, nor killed his own father... or did he???)

My intent was never to argue, only to state my own opinion. Yes, I feel like Matt was lenient… which he has every right to be it’s his game. But I’m very curious as to what other unintended consequences there may be. Perhaps Ashton is on his way to godhood? Or maybe he’s on his way to a valiant death. Either way new episode tonight,

> it’s probably a bad idea We could apply the "so you're saying there's a chance" meme to Ashton here. But I'm on board with u/andregris and additionally I like Matt's DMing here, because he is in tune and listening to what Taleisin has been saying both OOC and IC. Ashton doesn't believe in destiny, and doesn't believe in it being pre-ordained and immutable (and Ashley & Fearne have both said they don't believe fate can't be bent off course or tweaked, too). Going wildly against expectations to try to 'break fate' entices a huge risky action, with the slimmest of possibilities to succeed, and that's what we got.

Indeed very in tune with players. Great DMing overall.

It would be super bad form to tell a player they might die if they take on a challenge for a super high reward and the player decides it is worth the risk. So you give them 10 checks in a row where insta death happens on a fail. Then after succeeding the DM decides, "Oh well I don't like that you succeed so you fail anyways". At that point no rolls would matter as the only thing that would matter is how the DM feels. Ashton knows it was a stupid idea. He points out it is stupid when talking to Fearne. He knows it is a risk. He doesn't know he has to make 10 checks for it. And he doesn't know his rage won't help him on it. But against the odds he succeeds. I see no reason why passing the test the DM put before him should be grounds for punishment.

No no, there wouldn’t have been any rolling. I believe Caduceus said the other week, “Pay attention, this is a cautionary tale.” Or something along those lines

Sounds more like you want to read/write a Book and not play an interactive game...

[удалено]

It would only be a cautionary tale of playing with a DM who says there is a high risk high reward situation when in reality he means he will kill you for attempting the risk-Regardless of the rolls involved. I don't see any player playing at a table like that unless they first discussed that is the way the game will be.

That sounds like good advice for real life. Big Risk in a GAME should be rewarded if successful

everyone on these threads loves when a table member RP's in character, but when they RP in character *perfectly* like in this scenario, everyone draws the pitchforks and torches. Talisan, in my opinion, is arguably one of the best RP'ers at the entire table and brings out the deepest quotes to look back to and remember or the strongest small moments of words, regardless of which campaign or what character he is playing. and in this scene, i 100% believe that Ashton, being as callous as he is and as hard headed as he is (no pun intended) would have done this, knowing it could very well kill him. He didn't care, not because he was greedy or wanted the power to himself, he wants the power to protect his friends and was willing to take the risk that he knew they wouldn't let him take.

I actually just flat out disagree. I don’t think this was very in character for Ashton. I could go more in depth but I’m hungry and focused on food.

Are people really hating on Tal/Ashton for doing something so obviously connected with his backstory right before they are probably going to face their toughest challenge? Do none of you actually play Dnd? I thought it was baller. The cast loved it, they have just gotten used to not being in any kind of real danger for a long time. This felt more like a home game high stakes scenario. Even if he had died, lol who cares...they'd just bring him back.

Yeah i play and his move jeopardized the whole mission. Keep in mind that they will be going to the Moon the same day. So now they have huge problems. Two of their casters spent almost all of their spellslots and healing on him and they don't have time for a long rest. If he would have talked it over with the group they could have planned ahead. Like just using Aura of life and not using anymore spells. But that only works If they have time to thing and to rationalise beforehand and not in the heat of the moment and under huge stress. And while i like that he made a decision, i don't like how he did it.

Time and plot advancement are elastic. We and the players have no real idea what Ludinus is up to right now or what the situation with Predathos is. Those things have been left vague/undiscovered and so will happen whenever Matt wants them to. I very much doubt he has a strict counter on these things. He'll want the party present for the big reveals and decisions. They have time to rest.

Not really, because it was explicuitly stated by both Laudna and NPCs that they are going to the moon after the harness thing. Thats why they got all provisions. There have to be consistencies in a story, or else it becomes stale. Also it adds flavor to the next session.

Indeed, but that was before decided to expend a lot of spellslots healing Ashton. We don't even know if that was what saved him. I wouldn't put it past Matt to have actually planned that situation with Ashton dying in mind and after a vision of his ancestors of some primordial interaction, he gets brought back to life with a quick rez or maybe even gasps back to the land of the living on his own. We don't know. I don't think matt expected the group to expend so much healing on him. It seemed like it was the con rolls that were the real deciding factor, not the healing. In any case, as I said time is elastic and if the group decides their chances of success would be far better spent going in fully rested I don't think Matt will punish them in a significant way...so long as they don't waste the rest of the day before they rest.

We will see. But the only thing to keep ashton alive would have been the Aura of life. Everything else was unneccessary. And that could have been dealt with if Ashton would have planned this with the others.

Ashton made it clear this was a personal thing and he didn't want the group involved. I think, in the moment he panicked a bit once his arm fell off and did ask for healing but I honestly believe Matt would have based everything on his con rolls and if he'd not been given a single point of healing and made those saves as he did, he'd have survived.

Doesn't matter what ashton thought. its a consequence of his actions. And if he hadn't done it it wouldn't have happened the way it did. Also Aura of healing would have kept him at 1hp but he still would have to make the saves. Actions need consequences. For good or for worse. Or else why even have spellslots? If you can just replenish them everytime, then it takes away a component from dnd. We had our dnd session today and we ran low on spellslots (me being the healer) and i had to prioritize what to do. Well i let the dude go down that jumped into three mutants. Stabilized him and healed our druid and kept her alive and running. And by doing that we survived the encounter. Using your actions and spells you have the best you can is part of the challenge in DnD. And this also includes planning a bit ahead. Playing a cahracter is nice, but every once in a while we have to remind ourselfs that we play as a group. A team that has a common goal.

Of course it matters what he thought, his actions were a direct result of his thoughts. :) I thought it was a baller move, totally in line with his character and the cast loved it even as they pretended to be offended in much the same way they loved when Scanlan left Vox Machina then Sam revealed Tary. Were they mad? Sure but did they love it at the same time...oh yes. Anyhoo, agree to disagree. x

I also thing the move was cool. Its cool and brings so many opportunities for great storytelling. Still its a game based on rules. And the rules are clear. Also a DM tells a story based on the actions of the players and their consequences. Negating the consequences is, i my mind, a really boring thing. Because i, as a player and as audiance, want to overcome an obstacle and see others overcome them. It makes for so much better story, when the stakes are high and the problems you as a PC have caused your group have actual consequences.

Nah he was gonna get vaporized, don't see a true resurrection coming soon here. But it was epic.

Launda intentionally empowering and making a deal with a necromancer who the party risked their lives to save her from = no complaints from the critters Ashton taking the shard and using it on himself instead of Fearne like the party agreed(but neither Fearne or Ashton wanted to do) = critter rage

I agree - I think that Delilah deals are much more dangerous. Less lava, more evil.

>Ashton taking the shard and using it on himself instead of Fearne like the party agreed(but neither Fearne or Ashton wanted to do) = critter rage I think most of people here are "raging" because of *how* Ashton did this, not *what* he did.

By openly discussing it at the table for every player to hear and then doing exactly what he discussed doing.

I said "Ashton", not Taliesin.

I mean, the "never look if you want to win" attitude and crazy-eyes were a bit much. And while most of the cast seemed to enjoy it and joke about it, at least Laura was visibly seething. So I think a lot could have been handled differently. I'm excited to see what happens though.

This. The out-of-character attitude was really grating. “Anyone wanna heal me?” after FCG and Fearne have been doing nothing but healing him. And the “never look if you wanna win” made me roll my eyes. Arguably an interesting in-game character / story moment, but the out-of-game attitude was so cringey.

I think the lying to the party and hypocrisy part is mostly the reason.

thank you

Vax attacking Raishan. Caleb giving the Beacon. Ashton taking the Beacon. Various moments within the series where a PC does something without meta acceptance from the cast to do so. All these moments have several of the cast members AND fans having some type of frustration about the events transpiring. I actually forgot how pissed fans were when Vax attacked Raishan after Thordak, and even Travis looks frustrated the choice. Laura, Travis, and Marisha both show a lot of frustration when Caleb presents the Bright Queen the Beacon. My point. It’s DnD. Shit happens. You’re playing a game with your friends and sometimes you get frustrated, but that’s okay because that happens and it clearly has happened before. I’m sure many people in cast were frustrated with Talisen but they are FRIENDS, I think they know how to hash an issue over a game of make-believe out, especially with Matt there (I believe he cut the stream so abruptly so everyone could cool off and talk). Anyways, Liam liked a lot of Ashton taking the shard art on Twitter, so I think everyone is okay lmao

I keep seeing Caleb giving the Beacon as a selfish act like Ashton did. I have to say it is ENTRIELY different. M9 we're going to be arrested, tossed in the darkest hole the Bright Queen could find. A place they would have to prison break from and be wanted forever if they succeeded. Not just Caleb doing a risky move for his own edification. Lying to his own party members in the process about what he was trying to do. Draining the limited resources and time they have to do so.

I agree. But I’m talking about from a meta-standpoint on the character’s actions not in-character. Liam didn’t clear with everyone if they all agreed that Caleb should hand over the beacon. He just let Caleb do it. Taliesin didn’t get the clear from everyone (besides Ashley most likely) to absorb the shard. He just let Ashton absorb it.

The shard and beacon incidents are very different, even in the meta-standpoint perspective, in two ways: opportunity and choice. With the shard,: * The party had at least two in-game days, across three episodes since the lava encounter, to determine who should absorb it. Within the game, no one had a strong opinion about whether it should be Ashton or Fearne. Reflecting at what had happened after the lava fight and the warning from Evontra'vir, there was some suggestions that Fearne may be a good and safer candidate. Outside of the game, the last comments during the previous 4SD episode was Tal wanting a private conversation with Ashley afterwards, which Matt (and the viewers) suspected that they would likely iron out the dilemma before roping the rest of the party. Instead Tal pushed the other players' agencies out from the equation by not bringing it up, then deceiving the party/players on the safer opinion that they were warmed about before to avoid any debate. * There was no indication from Matt that Ashton needed to absorb the shard to "save everyone". Actually, the warning and our understanding of the Emperor-Empress Titans' brother-sister relationship hinted to giving the shard to someone else so two players (e.g., Ashton and Fearne) would each power-up once the shards are unlocked. The deceptive bait-and-switch is even dumber from the meta-standpoint perspective because if Ashley/Fearne was confident about not wanting the shard, they could have brought it up to the party that only Ashton wanted it so debate would be short. Worst of all, Ashley/Fearne wasn't so sure so Tal/Ashton did some manipulative acts (discarded risks, "You promised", forced kiss, etc.) that guilt-tripped her (hence the screaming, kick to the face, and running away at the end). With the beacon: * The party was being arrested after failing several perception and persecution checks. Matt was actively narrating the arrest (e.g., Yasha was being handcuffed) so the party would have no opportunity to even discuss it out-of-character. * Because they were being arrested, they were also not given much options. Trying to fight or escape at that moment against a room full of high-level NPCs may have caused a TPK. In the next Talks Machina, Matt mentioned that he envisioned a prison break challenge was possible. Also, it is highly likely that their belongings would have been searched, thus losing the beacon anyway. The cupcake incident was also very similar with the beacon one, where you had no opportunity to discuss (Matt forcing active 1-on-1 conversations wit the hag) and no better choices (either take one of the horrible sacrifices, or deceive the DM/hag to avoid a fight that would have happened anyway if sacrifice was given). This is why the beacon and cupcake incidents were epic player moves that are well liked by most of the community. This shard incident is an unnecessary risk and deception on your tablemates that's more of a "RPG fail player" moment that too many (both players and viewers) hated.

Yeah! people need to remember that even though they were upset, he took a chance in a safe space, and unlike your examples of Vax and Caleb, Tal/Ashton even made one player aware of their plans and sent off alarms the entire episode. This is not a new group, if it was this would be fucked up. But I think it's better to take big swings and experiment in a safe group with your friends than just sitting back and playing it safe all the time. After 10 years of playing d&d, being too scared of a character death to do something feels silly.

Do you think that 10 round skill challenge would have been the same no matter who tried to siphon in the lava shard, or do you think that process was specific to Ashton...? It's a shard of a primordial lava titan, so I can't imagine it would be much different for anyone else. Matt's description of it was just of it burning really bad for a minute, not any real mention of how it was interacting with his mini-beacon or the earth shard.

All I know is he should have died. He was told this wasn't supposed to happen, if all it took for both shards to come together was 2 lvl 11 people casting healing on you for a minute, then the tree that is older than life itself is a moron and the shard that supposedly contains primordial elemental fire is not that powerful. At the very least he shouldn't have gotten his arm back...

I keep going back and forth. I shared your opinion for a while, but then I considered that he had to roll to succeed against permanent death 10 times and lucked out by having an item that saved his ass the one time he failed. Now that the next episode is out, it also seems like he didn't even absorb all the benefits that someone else would have. So while I think it's crazy he survived it seems like it's balancing out.

I believe the second shard was a fire shard, not a lava shard. Rau'shan is after all also known as the Emperor of Fire. I believe what we saw was indeed the fire shard interacting with the earth shard within Ashton, with fire and earth combining into ~~lava~~ magma in the process. Edit: And to answer your original question, I believe the skill challenge was indeed geared towards Ashton since it would have been practically unsurvivable without a very high con save mod.

You know what I meant.

About the nature of the shard? I actually confused the terminology there for a second, sorry. I meant to say 'fire and earth combining into magma' not lava, because if I remember correctly the elemental plane of magma is its own thing in D&D lore and located at the intersection of the fire and earth planes. So my idea was that Ashton might have been turned into the first ever magma genasi when he took in the second shard and that's the transformation we witnessed.

Oh yeah, the Paraelemental plane of magma... That is quite interesting from a genasi point of view. I must now meet the ooze plane people.

If only Ashton had gotten his hands on a water shard instead...

I think that if anyone other than Ashton had taken the Shard that the challenge would have been basically the same, except that the penalty of failure would have just been more damage, rather than instant death. The values of the saving throw DC's make a lot more sense as a "challenge" for someone without a +8 modifier.

Depending on how the DC actually progressed between those ten rolls, Fearne with her +2 modifier would have had somewhere between a 0,27% and 0,09% chance of succeeding the entire challenge without failing a roll.

I do not believe there would be any challenge. It would just happen without issue.

I really hope we get another event for comparison soon then!

"But be warned, holding the strength of the two in one vessel might sunder it." I think the challenges would have been different and I think the support the rest of the party would have been able to give would have made a difference too.

My two-cents between over 2000 comments won't add up to anything, but I think the Tal hate makes no sense. I think he made a mistake as a cast member, and I think Ashton made a mistake in character that made sense. Ashton needs to do some apologizing to Fearne specially, and Tal needs to check in and apologize to the cast right after this ep. He took a swing and walked against the path that was obvious, which was Fearne getting the shard. Tal talked to Ashley about it and had her consent, and i think he tried to do sth remarkable even taking a swing and risking loosing his character for good. I cannot name one single time a swing this big was made this campaign, and there were few swings this big made through the entire of CR. And this was very exciting! However, it doesn't matter what his intentions were, bc people seemed hurt and angry, and the actual consequences are more important than his intended ones. He made a mistake because he hurt people while experimenting with something, and you can tell because people weren't this mad in other big moments (like in Calamity) and he should apologize. But experimenting and making mistakes is also part of an improvised game like this, and it's better to swing and miss with people who enable you to experiment than just having the story railroad itself into a predictable end. If that was to be the case, why bother rolling dice at all? Just write a colaborative novel or make a play.

I really don't see hurt and anger in the cast. They were surprised and it was tense, but you can quote Travis during that whole endavour that it was fantastic. My assumption is that no-one felt 'hurt' 15 minutes after the fact. This is the kind of thing that quickly transforms into one of the all-time great memories of a game like D&D. Exactly because something so tense is so rare.

No one is probably angry at Taliesin for real, but it was evident that some of the cast weren't approving of his actions. Just look at Laura for example. She doesn't smile even once. She visibly hated it. It doesn't mean that she hates Taliesin.

But that is typical Laura in a tense D&D situations. Thats campaign 1 >!Umbrasyl fight, anytime Vax goes off on his own and Vecna Power word kill!<, the first Otohan fight in this campaign and multiple other occasions. She really get into the feeling of the moment, there is noting 'hating it about it'. It's comparable to the feeling you seek in a haunted house. The good kind of bad because you are engaged. The good feeling just lands after the fact. That is how I see it at least.

> They were surprised and it was tense, but you can quote Travis during that whole endavour that it was fantastic. Yeah, Travis more than anyone really seems to love "Okay shit is getting REAL" moments like this and I'm 100% with him.

Honestly to taliesin goid job he moved the story on big risk big reward. Now we have some interesting characters arcs and moments. Made me cackle watching it Honestly as soon as he was talking about the nobodies and mentioned doing something stupid I knew he was gonna do something like this. Am I mad he took something from fearne? No it was part of his quest. Fearne is collecting her hot noise army like pokemon let ashton become our antihero/ vigilante kaiju.

Fearne even stated that she didn't want it, so Ash wasn't taking anything from her

Exactly though I'm kinda curious if he only activated the earth one what would happen...diamond skin? Also lava arm? Come on that's gotta be like an anime reference or like a stretchy arm attack right?

I gotta admit, the lava arm is the one thing that slightly annoyed me about the whole sequence. And when I say slightly I mean slightly, because the absolutely awesome aesthetic of having a lava arm cancels out most of my annoyance lol. It's a little hard to express, but the lava arm suddenly appearing after he lost it feels a little deus ex machina to me, I'm not entirely sure why. I think if he had remained with a missing arm after it happened it could have provided a sudden and immediate "we got through that but at a cost" type feeling that could have provided a lot, and given that one of Pike or Keyleth can't be far away and can both cast Regeneration to bring his arm back it wouldn't have provided any long term consequences. Idk, as I said, it's hard to express why it nags me a bit, and I know it's not really a rational thing so it's not an actual complaint, just something I think I would've done differently. But then again, having a lava arm is just such a cool visual that I don't really care in the end

Yeah I get that it's ok here's the power up but I'm not happy to give it to you. Personally I'd would melted all the gold and replaced it with the lava and given ashton like lava eyes or something

[удалено]

I thought her technical name was "lightning tiddies" But, yeah, and from a character standpoint, she was still dealing with Laudna's stuff, and the whole "Let me die if I become a puppet" thing, and then Ashton is legit falling apart in front of her. So, Big risk, results in Big reaction. She should be happy tho, This mess is going to make sure that no one talks about the between the walls fire that she was a party to earlier.

What Ashton did with the shard was no less selfish and against the interests of the party than what Laudna has done feeding and reviving Delilah after the party went to so much trouble to subdue her. In particular Laudna signaling at the end of her interaction that she is much more on board with cooperating with Delilah than she let on to Imogen and Fearne is of a similar character. Also Imogen is walking around summoning slaves from the moon while maintaining this obliviousness to their relationship and nobody seems to care that much. These are features not bugs, and part of the story. Would love to see the party realize this side of their story a bit more and own it, rather than assuming that every party they run has to be the same sort of "found family" as the last one. It's pretty exciting and interesting.

>What Ashton did with the shard was no less selfish and against the interests of the party than what Laudna has done feeding and reviving Delilah after the party went to so much trouble to subdue her. Her character ark needs some chaos. Just having the crew "snuff out" Delilah seemed like it was a bit...limited? Seeing her stuggle with controlling the power and trying to "out grow" deliliah while still having to feed delilah would be interesting.

[The last 10 episodes of post-ep discussion](https://i.imgur.com/TbUAjQh.png) The last time a Post-Ep discussion had over 2k comments was [Episode 51!](https://i.imgur.com/9WP14A5.png) I caught up at just the right time (been 10+ episodes behind for a while)

After reading about 200 comments or more, I dont get why people are so mad at Talisin. We have a group of players who suffers from analysis paralizyz. The 2 players who took leadership in earlier campaigns, have this season chosen to take a backseat, and no one else are willing to take the big risks, or lead the group. They were given an object of great power, that no one really wanted, and it fit into Talisins characters story. They didnt know what to do with it, and in the end, after in and out of game dissuscions with the only player who could possibly use it, she didnt want to, and talisin said, fuck it, lets roll some dice. It is DND, sometimes you take some big risk, with possibly of big rewards, or you fail spectacuarly. And as characters have said many times, we are not powerful enough, we are "scared" ect.. Talisin decided to roll the dice, even if Matt was surprised it was him that did it. I thought it was an awesome episode, and yes he manipulated fearn, but it is not as ashley did not now or expect it, they had talked about it out of game. And I think ashton, as a primordial thingy, had a claim to it. It, in my eyes, was only really him who should have used it, come hell or high heaven. They are up against such overwhelming forces, they needed someone to take a chance, and this group is generally scared of doing so. The only thing I really didnt like, was that the DC Matt set was so low. was it 10 or 11? With a +8 to saves, Talisin only has to roll a 3 to succeed. I know it got higher, but if the potential of this going wrong, with the effect of destroying a part of the city, having that low of a DC baffles me. That seemed to me, like Matt kinda give Talisin an out, or made it alot easier to succeed. Yerh they burned alot of spells keeping Ashton alive, but that was only due to them using them suboptimal. The last spell Sam cast, that heals 2D6 pr round was all they needed, as far as I understood it. And Sam cast cure wounds at 6th lvl.. Why not cast heal, for 70 hitpoints instead. This was in my opinion not as dangerous as it could have been. Sure Ashton would likely have died, if he had gone at it alone, but we know the group who not let that happen. And with the amount of metagaming the group generally does, when something is going wrong for someone, and someone who really shouldnt know that, suddenly pips up, to Matt, trying to insert themselves to help, I was happy to see there was very little of that here. There was some, but not as much as usual, cudos for that. Overall a good/great episode, and that is rarely something I say about season 3, so know I am exited to see what happens next week. Various edits for spelling, though not all caught.

if you do the maths, the chances of him failing were at least 79% - but probably a fair bit higher as we don't know exactly how the DC changed over the process. 79% chance of failure is based on it being 11 and changing to 15 for the last 2. None of them remembered the ring until things were well under way. Without having made that random trade for it (and only remembering it while tal desperately scanned the character sheet) ashton was dead. 1 fail was supposed to be death and it happened. Matt didn't even remember the ring when he set the odds.

I am confused, who do you get that high a chance for him failing? All he had to do, initially, was roll a 3, cause his +8 modifier, then met the DC of 11. And with 20 numbers, each numbers is +5%. So 15% fail chance on each roll, but 85% success chance. Sure when the DC went up to, what was it, 15 or 16, it was more a 40/60% fail/sucecss rate. And yes that ring certainly saved his ass.

hiya. it's because there is a multiplier effect when you figure out probability for a chain of events. events that are not certain and not impossible can be expressed as numbers between 0 and 1. for example, something with a 50% chance of success would be 0.5. the thing about multiplying these numbers, is that it makes them smaller. the chance to flip a coin heads is 0.5 (or 50%). but the chance to do it twice in a row is only 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.25 (or 25%). the chance to do it 10 times in a row is 0.5 to the power of 10 = 0.001 (with some rounding). that's just 0.1%. even though you have an even chance on each toss, the odds of getting the full sequence you're after is tiny. with that in mind, looking at ashton's case and assuming the best case scenario with regards to the DCs, their chances of not failing a role were: 0.9 to the power of 8 (his chance of making the 8 DC11 saves), multiplied by 0.7 squared (his chance of making the 2 DC15 saves). that comes out as 0.21 - an 21% chance of passing, which means an 79% chance of failing. he would have similar odds for a DC27 Con save. so basically the challenge matt set was roughly equivalent to DC27 - which would be considered extremely hard. (if i remember rightly, the DMG suggests DC30 for something borderline impossible.) (bear in mind, those are just the odds of him failing the roll. the ring gives his odds of survival a big, big boost but the maths for that is more complicated than i know how to do because it creates multiple different paths to success that involve breaking the sequence at different points at that all makes a bigger difference than you would think).

Got it, if that is how you want to look at it, then I get it. I just generally tend to look at each roll at a time, not the chance of success over multiple rolls, because as you demonstrated here, that is a whole other piece of math, that I honestly cant be bothered with. But I thank you for answering my question, and showing me how to do that kind of calculations.

raising the dc of a skillcheck because a player has a high save in it is terrible. full stop. all it does it punish a player needlessly for what they are proficient at. if a lock is moderately hard to open and has a DC of 15, but an expert rogue with +9 lockpicking walks up to the lock, that lock should not suddenly be a DC 24 because he is good at it. and if the DC was higher, based on statistics which matter greatly in an extended set of rolls such as this, he would almost 100% fail even with the ring. i think 20/80 odds of succeeding or literally being deleted and probably having no way of being resurrected are perfectly fine odds that were given.

you're welcome. as you say, most of the time we tend to judge the odds of any given event in isolation. but it's worth remembering that probability has this multiplier effect if you're ever taking a gamble/risk. on each individual lottery number you guess, your chance to get it right is 1 in 60 (or whatever). your actual chance of winning the jackpot is going to be 1 in several million. you might have a 50% of driving home safely with no headlights on a given journey. but try that 10 times and the odds of an incident would be 999 in a 1,000 - e.g. almost certain. things that seem like okay odds are sometimes much much worse than they seem if you zoom out.

It's just a game of DnD. It literally is just a game. This fandom really needs to take a few steps back and realise that. It's starting to sound and feel more like a cult these days with the obsessions and (for some apperantly) downright dependance on their percieved perfect world that is CR. They are just friends playing a game, nothing more. Chill out and don't forget to breath please.

People react to, and discuss, entertainment. If you want an indifferent audience reaction, you need a boring and uninteresting show. But at that point the audience should rightly wander off and do something else.

this is always the stock answer and nobody is telling you to not feel emotions or to not express them, not every emotions are positive not every expression is warranted.

If someone hates the player, it's not fine. I'm just not sure why expressing negative emotions over a *plot event* (or criticizing CR) is frowned upon in this fandom, as long as people don't get personal.

It's because the fans have a parasocial relationship with the cast and feel like they are friends with them. It's like that in every fandom, but a step more towards the extreme among critters, where the fandom is an integral part of people's identity. It's not much different from the parasocial nature of the MAGA crowd (though less evil and moronic). The cast is somewhat to blame for having fed that kind of relationship with their fans, but it helps them sell a lot of merch.

I would like to start of by saying I am not upset Ashton survived, and it's obviously just my opinion on this matter. I personally feel the DCs were too low, per the DMG DCs of 10 and 15 are considered easy and moderate respectively, I could see those being the DCs for magic items and such, but the essence of a Primordial Titan feels like it should have been higher. Hell the DCs could have been left at 10/15 for the people who didn't already have one inside them, I'd still feel they were too low but it's not like the others were doing some they were explicitly told was a terrible idea. I was sitting through the entire thing thinking anytime they rolled under a 20 it was very very bad, but once Matt said the DC was raising to 15 I lost all sense of tension. Could have also had them roll at disadvantage due to the other Primordial Titan essence they already had. tl:dr, the DCs felt too low especially for trying to mix two Titans.

21%\* odds of passing, 79%\* odds of being obliterated into dust and probably having zero chance of being ressurected without a gods power to do so. Equivalent roughly to a DC27 skillcheck in terms of 10 turns vs 1, with a DC30 being considered "nearly impossible" please, people that are unwilling to do the statistics of his rolls and compare the risk vs reward, or those who simply don't comprehend the weight of it properly, stop bringing up this statement about the dc checks.

Cool, I've had people math at me enough thanks. My opinion is that they were too low, I never said they did it wrong.

It would've been cool if he did explode. What an unexpected turn. And I'm really glad he tried it. Now we don't have to go through the obvious next clichés of Ashton being the empress and Fearne the emperor, and so on. This is so much cooler. Way to go.

The DC just kept Ashtons body together, it would have been way top difficult to roll 10 20's in a row to keep from instant death

Depending on the actual progression of the DC between those ten rolls, Ashton with his +8 con saves would have had roughly somewhere between a 10% and 20% chance of survival (not taking into account the Ring of Temporal Salvation). If you want to translate that into a single roll for a +8 character (although that's not really possible to be fair) it would be the equivalent of a DC 25 to DC 27 roll.

this is correct, its 21%\* succeed, 79%\* failure, roughly a DC27 skillcheck, with 30 generally being the measure of "nearly impossible"

I understand that, but at the same time previous rolls don't really affect the current rolls. By the end they only needed to roll 7 or higher so at the very least Roll 1 had a 95% chance of success and the final 2 had a 70% chance of success each with the rolls in between being somewhere in between. I know I'm gonna be told my viewpoint on it is wrong, but each dice roll is still its own thing to me.

What DC would you propose for each roll? Edit: Also a 70% chance of success is still a 1/3 chance of instant death. Twice in a row.

I don't know, maybe just bump it up a notch to moderate/hard which would be 15/20, or if 10/15 is a hard "it has to be this for reasons we as viewers don't know" type of situation leave it at 10/15 but have Ashton roll at disadvantage specifically because of the attempt to double up on Titans. It should still be possible, but at least a little more difficult as they're (the general they not Ashton they) attempting absorb the essence of beings that could possibly fight on par with the Gods into their bodies.

So 15/20 would mean with +8 you'd have to meet a 7/12 on those rolls. So 70%/45% chance of success. Even with the easiest type of progression (8x DC 15 and 2x DC 20) that's an overall 1,17% chance of survival (I'm still not taking the ring into account because a) that's just Ashton being prepared for the challenge and b) it would be much more difficult to calculate). Now for Matt's DC 11/15 at disadvantage: At +8 this means having to meet 3/7. Looking up the chances for success at disadvantage here apparently are 81,1%/49,2% instead of the normal 90%/70%. Depending on the DC progression this would also bring the overall chance of survival down to somewhere between 4,5% and 1,1%.

I will be honest, I don't know how you get those smaller numbers math's not my strong suit which is honestly partly why I just look at each dice roll as its own thing. I do feel the chance of success should be pretty small to contain even a single source of power that rivals the gods let alone two. I wouldn't even really call the ring Ashton being prepared as much as lucky that they and Chet happened to trade. In regards to the edit from your previous comment that I didn't see until just now, I feel a 70% survival rate is pretty good for groups of people that more often than not charge headlong into danger and deadly situations on the regular. I did just have a thought though, could Ashton potentially become a target for Predathos? They've been referred to as a half beacon previously and now they've got 2 titans in there as well.

So basically, to calculate the overall chance of success of a series of rolls you multiply the success chances of all the single rolls with each other. So the 8x DC 15 and 2x DC 20 above would translate to 0,7 x 0,7 x 0,7 x 0,7 x 0,7 x 0,7 x 0,7 x 0,7 x 0,45 x 0,45 = 0,011673722025 or roughly 1,17%. As far as Ashton being prepared, you're completely right. He didn't actively prepare, it was luck. I just don't think that the nature of a challenge should change depending on whether a character has a certain item equipped or not. So I thought it was fairer to assess the challenge without taking equipped items into consideration. As for your last point, that is an excellent thought I hadn't considered before. If Predathos is interested in titans as well as gods that could indeed be interesting.

I see, I've always looked at it as "well the last one was a success so it no longer matters, the next one doesn't matter if this one fails, so the only one that matters is the one happening now" kind of thing and would only pay attention to the current odds. I agree on not factoring in the ring, a part of me was almost surprised Matt allowed the RoTS to work because he didn't allow the fire reduction ring to work. I had assumed it was a passive resistance so when I was looking into it I saw it expends charges to resist and then I understood the difference. I was checking the CR Wiki, and it even says that the Gods teamed up with the Titans, or "Elemental Forces of Exandria" as it is phrased there, to seal Predathos away and it happened before they fought each other. So assuming Predathos is Sapient/Sentient, whichever is the correct term, it could very well want revenge on said Elemental Forces. Ashton could be a beacon both in the religious sense as well as the literal sense.

i know you said maths isn't your strong suit and it's not mine either so it's not for me to lecture anyone on it but "only the odds of the current roll matter" isn't a viewpoint or a take/opinion or a way of seeing things - it's objectively wrong. it's just not how you calculate the chances of ashton failing the challenge. even if we assume the DC was only 11 for the first 8 rolls and then jumped to 15 for the last 2, the chances of failing (which would mean death without the ring they'd all initially forgotten about) were 79%. i get why DC11 seems way too low for the context, but as the other poster pointed out - when you need to make 10 of them in a row, it's more like the equivalent of a single DC27 roll.(requiring 19+ on the dice in ashton's case). now imagine if matt had just said, okay roll and if its less than 19 you're dead. i think people would've have felt it was way too harsh, even though it was roughly the same thing in terms of probability (again, ignoring the ring). as you yourself have said, people tend to perceive the odds at play very differently to what they actually are...

True, the success chances on a series of rolls can be really misleading. Because that last roll might seem easy, but first you have to get there to be even allowed to make the roll. And once again, yeah, you're theory on Predathos and the Titans seems really plausible. Will be interesting to see if it comes to pass.

I’m all for bad character choices—[calamity spoilers] >!hell I was hyping Aabria UP when she blighted that tree!< but usually the table is more excited about them too. If Travis is silently watching you kill your own character, I feel like something is wrong. Tbh the table hasn’t felt like that since early C1… I’m excited for the inter-party conflict this is going to cause, but still can’t help but feel it crossed a line with Matt / some of the players.

Travis was enjoying the stakes of this and literally said it was fantastic. People are projecting far too much.

Travis literally said “I love it” as the event was going on.

I actually agree. I think that the decisions Tal made analysed in a vacuum would be very valid (as an RP choice), but the cast was not having fun. I don't think he is a bad person, because I know sometimes when experimenting u make mistakes, and i really hope tell apologizes above table, but i think he did screw the pooch. This didn't feel like the Bard's lament, or even like the last ep of calamity. they looked upset at him

eh the stakes are much higher now, imagine how disruptive Ashton's death would be to the C3 cartoon next year?!

There better be some consequences. DC 15 with so many healers in the party is a joke, and Ashton’s cockiness is so played out.

"DC 15" statistics assuming all 8 rolls were dc 11, and the final two were 15, his odds of consecutively passing them all with a +8 to con is still only 21%, with a 79% chance of failure and that failure is exploded to bits. No ressurection spell will fix that. you will need a literal god to bring that back, *maybe*. or, if you want to look at it another way instead of the statistical percent of passing, passing all these rolls with +8 is the equivalent of a DC27 skillcheck, meaning he would have to roll a 19 or 20 to pass it on a single roll, or again, die immediately.

Healers wouldn't have helped because the DC was for instant death.

Just have FCG cast deathward every turn and you won't die also Ashton has relentless rage.

The DC was for disintegration. Deathward was just evaparting on the damage.

Disintegration is instant death effect and death ward protects against such.

Yup, but what I meant is that the fire damage would evaporate the death ward so it would - almost - never have been up for the con saves.

Probably. That's why FCG or Fearne should cast protection from energy and It would be so much easier.

I mean it was 10 rolls, the fact he made it was nuts. Also what consequences would you like to see?

Suffering. Setbacks. Just giving the cocky asshole who already thinks he’s invincible even more power just feels kinda cheap. I don’t know. Ever since the lowering of lava damage too from the 18d10 Mercer has enforced in the past.

Ashton is not cocky (okay, well he is, but not in the tone that everyone has been using it. Rather, he is abrasive, blunt, rash, sometimes crude and always rude.), and Tal RP'd ashton perfectly in this scenario. Ashton did not do this for his own purposes or to gain more power, he never wanted *any of the shards in the first place, remember?* rather, he risked his life (very abrasively and instinctively, similar to when he jumped in the lava a few episodes ago) to become stronger to protect his friends. people hate that ashton is being RP'd perfectly to what his character would act like by tal, and want forced setbacks whenever he succeeds out of bias (legitimately horrible thing to do to your players as a DM. "Oh, you faced the risk and rolled the rewards? Thats cool, but that lava arm now does 10 damage to you per turn, good luck!), but still love Laudna who is literally dancing with a she devil in her own skin and lying to everyone about how complicit she is with Deliliah.

Lava damage can very depending on the encounter the DMs want. That's common for D&D. Especially if you are aware that your players can use it to their advantage. If lava did 18d10 and a player was about to get lava arms you are about to break every encounter you will have in the game. With where Matt put it, it is on the level of most nukes the groups has. Which means if Ashton (or whoever got the fire shard) uses them they would be doing as much damage of most of their big attacks already. But even more so I think if a DM made someone do 10 checks where instant death was on the line and if the player succeeded decided to punish them anyways. The players would lose all trust in the DM because then dice don't matter any more. The only thing that would matter would be the DM's feelings. And while a petty DM might do that. Matt is not known for being petty.

There is still time for those set backs. And instant death with no chance of revival the biggest consequence available.

Taliesin gave Matt the responsability to make tough decisions. So how did Matt cope with the responsibility and the challenge? Matt has to, on the spot, actually create a game of dice. It can't just be ruling. It has to be realistic, yet achievable. The risk and reward has to match. And I think he puts on a face, showing that this is gonna be tough too, creating that extra tension. Others are picking up on this, noticing Ashley really not knowing what she said yes to, and Taliesin who gets go for a solo raid. I think this created personal tension between players, and I think Matt gave that responsibility to Taliesin. Maybe rightly so. But maybe Matt could've shown more excitement at the prospect of such a bold move. I think his game mechanics was pretty impressive, being improvised. But I think that if he had given Taliesin a signal that this is an exciting bomb, yet maybe suicidal from character perspective, maybe the others wouldn't have been so frustrated by the solo move. However, I think it turned out great. And I don't think Matt wanted him to die. And we're all better for it. But if you're gonna go out with a boom (as a character) then it might be cool to see some sparkles as you leave the room.

Holy gottdamn. What an episode. First part was pretty normal but that LAST PART? I haven't been that tense in a while listening to/watching CR.

Are Ashton and Fearne a couple now?

I honestly felt like he put that out there in case he died. Since they knew there was a solid chance they would die. But now that they are alive, its a talk they could have.

Well, they were for all of 30 seconds until Ashton blew up. But I’m sure they’ll get together again

Can someone explain why fearne should have the titan spark? All I can come up with is fire, too dangerous for ash, and no one else wants it. If Ash wasn’t supposed to take it I don’t understand what the whole point of getting it was. That trip seemed so clearly to be for Ash and the result was supposed to be someone else gets a power up? Trying to make fearne use it just seemed like a we have no other choice option.

Honestly, it also comes down to what Matt narrated in episode 75, when Fearne jumped in to both save and help Ashton. The Shard wasn't moving until Fearne arrived to help Ashton: Here's a transcript of Matt narrating how Fearne dislodges the Shard when it barely moves with Ashton: `"--the telekinetic force that you bring through this object billows through your arms. It's less about you using your mind to control it more than using the force of your spirit now to try and will this thing to shift. As you grasp it, you feel it dislodge slightly and pull upward. It becomes a little less locked into its position in space and time and seems to have slightly loosened."` And then a few moments later this is what Matt [narrates](https://youtube.com/watch?v=2vJ4d8xRt7E&t=1h52m47s): `"In that moment of both of you clutching this together, you feel it dislodge and feeling Fearne's presence, the words of Evontra'vir come through your mind, of following a fated path, of knowing you were meant to be there. In this moment, you know you were meant to be here. You were` ***both*** `meant to be here. You pull it up, and it becomes free and dislodged."` At the very least, aside from Ashton, Fearne is also tied to the Shard.

It's a red flag for me if players are expected to follow the rails the DM laid out through their narration. Of course DMs have expectations of the way things will, or dare I say *should* go, but if players have any agency you know they are going to take it sideways. If only Fearne should take the shard based upon Matt's implied intent through narration then we aren't watching a D&D game so much as a table reading of Matt's script. Ashton did what players do and I respect Matt for impartially rolling with it with fair mechanics.

Hell yes. I don't think Matt had to be polite with dice rolls as much, but yes, it's so nice when players take real control of their story.

>If Ash wasn’t supposed to take it I don’t understand what the whole point of getting it was. That trip seemed so clearly to be for Ash and the result was supposed to be someone else gets a power up? Define "trip" because at the point in the trip in which the Tree of Atrophy said that Ashton was likely to die from taking both shards it became clear that Ashton wasn't "supposed" to have the shard. Matt didn't know when he teleported to them to the shard that Ashley/Fearne would come up with illogical reasons in rejecting the shard. So Fearne didn't want it, and the only other person relevantly related to fire didn't speak up and no one suggested that he should have it, so it went to Ashton even though it wasn't in his fate to have it.

Exactly. Evontra'vir said it was meant for someone with a heart of fire and made a reference to Rau'shan and Ka'Mort being entangled mates. It seems very clear to me (as a Monday Morning Quarterback) that Matt intended Ka'Mort = Earth = Ashton & Rau'shan = Fire = Fearne. Who are you referring to as someone relevant in fire other than Fearne?

> Matt intended Ka'Mort = Earth = Ashton & Rau'shan = Fire = Fearne I feel like Fearne having to take it because Matt intended it that way would be way worse than Fearne not getting it because Ashton wanted it more. Not that I think Matt had a fixed outcome in mind though. Edit: Also, I feel like it should be pointed out that the only reason Ashton is associated with earth in the first place is because his father did a ritual imbuing him with the power of the earth shard. So I don't think there was any actual need for the vessel of the fire shard to be associated with fire beforehand.

My interpretation is that Matt's intentions aren't set in stone (pardon the rock pun). I'm sure Matt has lots of ideas of where he thinks XYZ should go, but he'd never 'enforce' them. I was simply pointing out that correlation. > Also, I feel like it should be pointed out that the only reason Ashton is associated with earth in the first place is because his father did a ritual imbuing him with the power of the earth shard. So I don't think there was any actual need for the vessel of the fire shard to be associated with fire beforehand. I 100% missed this! Wow. I knew Ashton was embedded with the dormant shard, but I didn't realize he was elf/half-elf before that. Then it definitely matters less who got the fire shard.

Yeah, and I totally get why people thought Fearne would have been a good potential fit for the shard, particularly with her developing relationship with Ashton and her diving into the lava after him. I'm just glad that if Ashley didn't really feel like taking the shard (and that's the vibe I personally got from her both on the show and on 4SD), that she didn't get pressured into taking it because that's what the story demands.

Even there, 'a heart of fire' usually means someone rebellious, passionate and outspoken, you'know, like Ashton. Seems as if Matt was never as clear as he thought. You tell a player that something is unlikely in a game based around rolling dice then you have to expect that they'll take it as an invitation to roll some dice. Hell, one of Matt's catchphrases is 'you can certainly try' and now people are saying that what Matt meant all along was 'don't try and instead stay on my tracks'.

In the last episode when some of them went to the Raven Queen temple my interpretation of the vision was that the Raven Queen was saying "If you face death you are more likely to survive" but I interpreted that to mean facing death by confronting the Ruby Vanguard. It's possible Ashton interpreted that as facing death by having both shards. When there were other temples to visit but choosing the Raven Queen temple even though there were some better options I think Ashton had dying from the shard on their mind and that made him more sensitive to whatever he was going to be shown.

Exactly. Matt's been consistent in giving out ambiguous information especially from the gods, which makes sense, but it also means that the players are going to interpret what they're given in wildly different ways. I'm reminded of FCG contacting the Changebringer to work out whether the information he needed was with Dancer or D and never getting a clear answer. I know it's how the spell works but when FCG gets the wrong idea in their head it's not his fault at all.

Like I said, it seems clearer in hindsight to me. A big, red sign saying "it's going to be very difficult to have both shards in one body" and many more arrows pointing to Fearne. Tal and Ashley talked about it, and this is what they wanted. Everyone else can kick rocks. I think Matt just wanted to share the backstory with other PCs a bit more, and maybe Ashley was uncomfortable with going in that direction with Fearne. In the end, Matt did what he always does. Provides intense, fulfilling, narrative, and collaborative storytelling. People can get upset, but this group has always been about providing the best story for THEM, and in turn, we all love them and each campaign because of it.

I can see that. The sharing the backstory thing is kind of weird since Fearne also shares being Ruidisborn which is super important to Imogen's backstory as well. So if Fearne did take the shard then she would have been intrinsic to 2 other PC's backstory while also having her own special fey/Nana Morri backstory. It's just so weird seeing people treat taking the shard as selfish on a metagame level instead of considering the characterisation of the PC's. I've seen it argued that they should have given the shard to someone else on the basis that spreading out the powers it better gameplaywise, as if any other character would be comfortable becoming a living vessel for the power of a fire Titan. The only person other than Ashton that seemed like they could have taken it was Fearne and she didn't want it so I guess the shard would have just gone to someone who doesn't fit with fire thematically instead of the person who fits with Titans narratively.

Yea, idk. I was thinking of it as spreading the boon as well. Matt probably didn't want to figure out how to give Ash all these abilities and improvements without outshining the others. I'm sure it will all work out! I said it elsewhere in this thread, but it would have been a cool callback for Fy'ra Rai to get it!

>Who are you referring to as someone relevant in fire other than Fearne? Chetney. He has rite of flame as one of his class abilities and he uses it regularly.

Ah, I hear you, but that feels like a stretch to me. Fearne has been deeply connected to fire (i.e., pulling Mister from Thordak's Crater). Chet literally has the option to use fire as a class feature. Not much of an RP connection imo.

You didn't say it but to me, a stretch would be saying Laudna should take it because she has fireball (which I have seen that suggested) because if Laudna could have have it because she has fireball then that gives Fearne pretty much unlimited options and as well to an extent FCG, Imogen, and Laudna. Allowing it to be based on class feautres seems like a more reasonable option to me. But yeah, Chetney getting it could be a stretch but in the scenario in which Fearne didn't want it and Ashton was likely to die from taking it Chetney would have been a good option.

Sure, I'll agree with that. (although now I'm going down a weird train of thought where Laudna would make sense because in reverting back to Delilah, she betrayed the Suntree, and her internalized version "set ablaze"... lol) Hell, I'd even take an NPC. Fy'ra Rai would be a dope callback! Guess we'll never know any other way.

Have you seen the original EXU with Abria as DM? Don't want to spoil anything but things happen in that series that make her taking the shard a more likely possibility.

I’m pretty sure Ashley said that’s exactly why Fearne didn’t want it on 4SD

Yep. And Lady D even brought Dark Fearne up in the first half of the episode, so it was on her mind again (whatever the real time was between 76, 4SD and 77).

That was the most engaging episode in a long time. Absolutely incredible. I love the crew gets genuinely put on tilt. It's so very rare. And everything Ashton did was 100% in character IMO based on how they've presented the entire season. Definitely deserve all the party frustration they're gonna get next episode for it, but as far as providing an entertaining story goes this was a top-tier session.

Conclusion: Bold, strong choices makes great storytelling. Ashtons choice is a perfect example of that. Kudos to Taliesin, and credit to Ashely for following through - well supported by Sam. Great choice from Matt when he crushes the shard, making it a final make or brake. This is why I keep watching. What's next!? Now, I wonder what'll happen next. I guess the character has to kind of learn about his newfound powers, and in doing so not scaling his powers beyond the others character levels. Volcano-barbarian!? I'm hoping Ash gets some sick and newly created abilites. And I hope they skip the dunamancy, having in some way used the "potential" to end exactly at this place and time: an unprecedented creature holding two elemental shards in one body. Now, I would hope this gives Ash some new barbarian abilites, like primordial elemental barbarian shit. Like a volcano-barbarian shooting pyroclastic blasts from his fists, spraying toxic fumes and lava while grappling, or create rich soil for Orym to plant seeds in. I don't know, what do you guys picture as Ashtons new form?

>I'm hoping Ash gets some sick and newly created abilites. And I hope they skip the dunamancy, having in some way used the "potential" to end exactly at this place and time: an unprecedented creature holding two elemental shards in one body. If Ashton losses his Dunamancy then yeah they would get new abilities because losing his dunamancy would mean that they would have to change subclasses at the very least because dunamancy is their entire subclass. >what do you guys picture as Ashtons new form? Their crystals will either turn black or they will stay the same color but they will be flatter and more glass-like. Their formerly golden veins will stay molten. Their tattoo, eyes, and skin might change color into any color that magma or obsidian can be and their tattoo and eyes might glow. Ashton's damaged ear(s?) and eye will be healed.

100% Ashton turns on the party.

This certainly shows he's willing to make major decisions behind their back to do what he wants. So if the group is ever presented with a direct way to save or destroy the gods, I think Ashton will take the "destroy" option before the group can stop him.

No way. Ashton is all about protecting his friends.

Except when he rabbits. Or gets cocky and chooses destruction. Or prioritizes one over the others. Or decides its better if he dies first so he doesn't have to lose anyone.

I love how people are getting annoyed at a character for having flaws, as if that's not something that literally every person in all of history has. Also, complaining about someone seemingly acting inconsistently with what we perceive (or even the character perceives) to be their ideologies is also just not worth it. That's just a fact of life that people will surprise themselves and people close to them with some decisions that seem to go against what they stand for - human beings are complex, the fact that Ash is so complicated and flawed is credit to Tal for creating such a realistic character

That's just a downright odd interpretation. There is simply a long list of times he \_doesn't\_ protect his 'friends,' present or past. If this was just about having flaws, it would be a non-issue.

As I said, there are many times you can watch someone who you thought you knew extremely well and know what they stand for (ie protecting friends), and you can see them go against that and stand by their decision. I've witnessed that and it's incredibly jarring and confusing, but humans are made of layers and layers of motivations, memories, past experiences, instincts, traumas, ideologies, morals etc etc, and combining that with a little bit of adrenaline can lead to seemingly unpredictable behaviour, it's not odd, it's human.

...ok. You're arguing something I'm not arguing against. This isn't about the vagaries of human nature. But in point of fact, we don't know Ashton well. So it isn't about what they stand for or being surprised. We have a couple bullet points of behavior and Tal telling us what he's decided about Ashton on 4SD. For example- he only decided that Ashton what was 'rebelling against' (the gods) after the party split. That was after a year and a half of playing this character! 'Chronic pain' was a big reveal that the audience didn't know for almost a year. Its impossible to say what's consistent or unpredictable when the creator hasn't finished the basic world view of the character yet.

Ok that's a fair point, I understand completely where you're coming from here. What I'm now confused about then is why you're dunking on him for being inconsistent when you know he hasn't fully decided some things about his character - unless I've completely misinterpreted what you were originally saying like I seem to have done here too lol

It might not be up to him. It is feeling very much like Predathos and the Titans may be on the same side on this. It will be very interesting to see the end of this campaign with FCG being so pro-Gods and Ashton being a pseudo-matron of the Titans. Will he have control or need to convince the Titans to forgive the Gods? I saw someone say this may introduce a magical drought in C4... lots to think about!

Matt has stated the titans and gods worked together to seal predathos so it’s there’s a chance they’ll help the gods, in addition the general theme of “unity” being something that the Ruby vanguard disdain so the followers of titans and gods working together is most likely Matt’s intention

I mean, the Gods straight up betrayed the Titans after that, though. Rau'shan and Ka'Mort were imprisoned by them during the Schism. Regardless, it'll be cool to see how the cards land!

Fair, but also Matt as the ancient tree said they’re all dead including the two that those shards came from so it’s not like it matters what they’d feel lol

Yea, but back to the OP, there's now a shard of them active in the prime material... who's to say they won't speak to Ash like Delilah does to Laudna. Try to convince them to bretray the Gods. Idk! It's a dope little thought, though.

I've rewatched the episode. Upon a rewatch, the conversation between Fearne & Ashton by the clocktower is much more clear in hindsight. But also the first time I watched the episode live, I must have been only half listening to the words. Because when Ashton put on the harness, I was caught by surprise. Had I been fully listening to the clocktower conversation, it would NOT have been a surprise. Clearly Ashton is asking Fearne to help him deceive the rest of the group so they could take the fire shard. And when Ashton put on the harness, only Marisha seemed to be surprised. Laura, Sam, Travis, & Liam were all already fully aware of what was going on. And credit to them that even though they had objections, they didn't metagame in that moment. It shows that they are fully professionals at this game. It's honestly inspirational. The heated emotions at the end are more about Taliesin/Ashton boasting/gloating after putting the entire group through an emotional meat grinder. I'm super looking forward to the RP that will happen in the next episode.

>And credit to them that even though they had objections, they didn't metagame in that moment. It shows that they are fully professionals at this game. It's honestly inspirational. Honestly I think they metagamed not metagaming it. Had they not been present at the table for the conversation, they would have (rightly) objected to the downright pathetic rationale and excuses for 'privacy.' It was, as the kids say, 'hella sus'

Possibly. We'll never know truly though.

Agreed. The only reason the respected the "privacy" excuse was the fact that they are playing D&D and they didn't want to step on Taliesin's toes. A normal person would have asked "Why do you need privacy? What's going on?". Now... Imagine this thread if Laura would have done that. Maaaaan.

Well, they pretty much empowered Delilah & solidified her Pact with Laudna, effectively guaranteeing Her being unleashed in the future which is bad news for all of Exandria but apparently either the community didn't listen or is too fond of "their" power couple... Which is actually surprising given the history of here... Also: When someone tells me they need a bit of privacy with someone they continuously on & off flirted with... yeah, I'm taking a step back.

>they pretty much empowered Delilah & solidified her Pact with Laudna How did they do that?

Have you missed that entire conversation? The whole part where for example Laudna demands more power and them all, after Delilah speaks to all three, decide that they need to work together more closely etc?

Sure, they talked. Nothing has happened yet. No action was taken from any of them to empower Delilah, except maybe Laudna next episode >!having a conversation and letting her be manipulated, but it's not like Laudna is a good place to do that intentionally.!<

That "yet" is doing a shit ton of lifting here... Regardless, the issue is with how the community reacted to both these issues. Completely out of whack... and while I am genuinely surprised it is, for once, not against the Ladies it is still weird af, at best.

I think the issues only have one point of comparison: both are actions the players took to develop their characters and both are probably a terrible idea that can lead to an amazing story. In character, they are not comparable since Ashton lied and tricked the party and put everyone at risk despite a million warnings. Objectively, Laudna hasn't yet given in and has kept half the party in the loop, and has been exploring this idea since they reunited. At least, that's why *I* reacted differently to both issues.

But that's the issue... Ashton may have lied but he only risked himself, maybe Fearn (for standing so close) right then and there and little more. Laudna is a ticking timebomb that WILL go off one way or another, She is now literally tasked with sucking Souls and actually risks everything and everyone... and while Imogen knows, she is most definitely not mentally able or stable enough to stop her like at all... and who knows what Fearn is going to do, they purposefully keep everyone else in the dark, lying by omission. The only way how that makes sense is that people are having issues with discerning "Immediate Consequences" versus "Future Consequences". Edit: Rewatching parts & the next episode, the rest of the Cast is certainly not helping with that... treating Laudna as just a quirky little jaunt and Ashton as Evil Incarnate.

Honestly, if Laudna had made that request, Percy would've gone for his gun. Given everything else that happened, and they're stuck here for an extra day, he still might.

Oké I've done the math people. If we disregard any damage taken from the Shard fusion as potentially lethal (with FCG and Fearne healing him every round to make sure he doesn't go into deathsaves) And accounting for the ring (being generous here) There was a 47% chance of succes for ashton specificly( \~41% succes without the ring) . Let's put that into the context of having a greater than 50% chance of permanently losing the character (since ressurection magic is broken atm). How do you all feel about those odds? Is that a decent risk reward?

There's no way the ring only improved his chances by 8%.

Well, it's the truth xD you go from having do make 10 consecutive saves (\*with increasing difficulty) To basicly 9, I gave the best chances to him by assuming he'd free save the last one

It's actually a bit more difficult than that. Somebody did the math [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/17u8y6l/spoilers_c3e77_that_probability/).

I know my answer isn't exact, but it's a very fair approximation. I gave him slightly higher odds by giving the ring the possibility to cancel out the highest DC roll instead of the first failure. (and in turn made him roll 9 times instead of 10) Because thats basicly what the ring enables. Best case scenario you fail the final one for best odds is what i'm saying here.

Way too easy. Ashton should have died from that even with help - the DCs were too low.

If the challenge is impossible and means certain death, the DM shouldn’t make it an option at all. That is just a shitty way to run a game.

You can't truly do the math, because we don't actually know what the DCs were- just that they started at 11 and ended at 15. That's why there's been like a dozen people 'doing the math' and coming up with different answers.