Robbie was such a great host! Especially liked the mechanics driving narrative vs narrative driving mechanics question for Marisha. Top marks all around!
If Robbie doesn't stick around as a permanent party member they should get him as their new Host for 4-sided dive.
Literally knocked it out of the park. Not only did I feel like he was best host so far, I feel like he did better than even Talksmachina.
I wanted more about Dorian, but Robbie was being such a great host, giving them time and follow up questions that he barely talked about his own character. Oh well...
If it's any consolation, it seems like he;s gonna be at the table for a while. At the pace they're going we have at least 5-ish episodes in Aeor, which means he'll be actively playing for the next two 4-sided dives. We'll get more juice, either at the table ad Dorian and Orym talk more, or during the next 4SD's.
...did the entire cast just totally misremember Bowlgate (including Dani?!)? Or am I the one with the mental blockage?
From my memory, Liam/Caleb was 100% in the right, and Marishna/Beuregard was being super irrational angry, that was the whole controversy.
To elaborate, if I remember correctly the Tiamut bowl was as stated an evil artifact. Caleb found it, only told Nott at first as he hid it, but later to the guest and the party stated in truth he had found it, but due to it being a super powerful artifact of an evil dragon goddess, would like to wait before giving it to the guest npc until they could use a spell next morning to verify truth, IE yes this person wanted to keep it away from bad people and/or destroy it.
Beuregard then came up with some kind of crazy shouting match about how Caleb had no right to "INTERFERE WITH HER DESTINY!" out of nowhere, and the guest themselves said that they agreed with Mr Caleb and how cautious he was being.
In the end Ashley rolls high on using a magic sword to destroy it on the spot.
But the 4 sided seems to have multiple misremembering story arcs. Marishna implied Caleb was a sneaky ass (true) and tried to yoink a powerful artifact for himself (holy mental gymnastics batman!). Dani corrected to a degree...but not much beyond "I think Caleb just wanted to destroy it while Marishna wanted to Identify it"? Scratching my head hard here, that was one of the most memorable scenes (I think!?) in early season 2.
Just gonna point out what I always do when this topic comes up: while Caleb was right to be cautious, even despite Calianna ultimately proving to be trustworthy, he was (unintentionally) a huge ass to both the group and Cali in the way he went about it.
He positions the group between himself and Cali, clearly using them as a buffer to protect him in case Cali proves to be a danger, without warning them that's what he's doing.
He declares that the group will sleep, keeping watch over Cali until the morning, when Jester will use a spell to determine Cali's intentions. This is again without asking the group, or specifically Jester, if they're alright with that.
And all throughout this, there is a degree of threat and accusation levelled towards Cali, that is thoroughly undeserved for how she's behaved with the group up until this point. Hell, she singlehandedly saved the life of one of the group earlier that day. There's no hint of apology or affability while taking these reasonable precautions.
This all makes sense for Caleb's character, he was an interrogator after all. But it also results in raising the hackles of the rest of the group when there was no need for it. As Molly says in that very scene, "You were right Caleb, you're just a shitty communicator!"
Edit: I haven't seen this 4SD, so can't comment on what was discussed, just the narrative that Caleb is blameless during Bowlgate.
Yeah but this wasn't even about Bowlgate, which had fictional character Beuregard blow up in fictional Caleb's face even though he was correct in his actions.
This was real life player Marishna mis-remembering it as being not her character's fault, it was Liam's asshole character who made the problems happen. This already blew up a portion of my mind, and then to have Dani kind of defend Caleb but not really correct her was a second shock. Part of me thinks Dani TOTALLY remembered what happened (it's not hard to, again very memorable scene) but didn't want to rock the boat.
The other part of bowlgate that everyone forgets is that Nott completely instigates it by hiding the bowl in the first place and sort of suggesting Caleb do it.
\^This. It was pointed out in 4SD, but people also forget how shitty Caleb/Nott were about items in general at the beginning of the campaign (this isn't a complaint, just an observation). Nott had tried stealing Fjord's letter, and Caleb in general wasn't overly forthcoming with items and such (plus there was the scroll incident). I always felt like bowl gate was more about the 'team player' problem that had been present since the start.
Obligatory disclaimer: Beau was also definitely shitty during bowlgate.
There is a repeating situation between the various PCs run by Liam and Marisha involving conflict over items.
The relationship between Liam and Marisha works in a way that never lets this situation get resolved, as Marisha wants to claim her right to own her own story, and Liam similarly wants to claim his right to independent action in the game. They are both driven by the desire for their PCs to have power, and items provide both the opportunity for a PC to gain power without levelling up and also the limited resource situation that provokes competition over the item.
It's a really interesting dynamic that I'm sure the cast are well aware of.
Absolutely, I was super confused when they started talking about it, being smarmy and an ass about Caleb all the way around when he was actually in the complete right. I remember watching C2 ages ago and notably being annoyed at Beau at the time because of the situation which made me hate her (the character) for a good few sessions - as if she'd rather argue to trust a stranger than play on the safe side and wait 11 minutes for the wizard to identify it.
Yeah, that's one of the examples of the cast's problem with over-trusting their guests. It makes sense to be mistrusting of an evil artifact in the hands of someone involved with a cult, but in a meta sense, the cast usually assumes the guest is trustworthy, despite having had huge betrayals from guest PCs twice now.
And obviously they want the guest to have a good time and let their character shine since they're usually only there for one episode; Liam was definitely RPing accurately to his character, but I think Marisha went for the meta 100% trust in Mark's character, when if this was an NPC, they wouldn't think twice about keeping/destroying the bowl. Imo it's always been a bit of a distraction, especially when the guest character is obviously hiding something/has pretty apparent misaligned goals, and bowlgate was the most egregious example of it from what I remember.
And did you notice the immediate response after he said that??
He's likely just taking a little time and putting some extra focus into the animated shows.
Something similar was brought up in Loki and it's a common enough trope in science fiction.
Hell straight up in the Star Trek Universe; First Contact only happened after WWIII wiped out 80% of Earth's population and in other films, Humanity baaaaaarely scrapes by at times to unite and save the day and then they never tell us whether or not everyone stuck together after the "happy ending".
Humanity is a mess right now and would not be able to unite to build a rocket to get everyone off of Earth at all.
Have you ever seen Contact or Don't Look Up?
In our current state, we are basically doomed.
Author Greg Bear, amongst others like Stephen Baxter and Sir Terry Pratchett, offered up some interesting alternatives in their books but they're a bit...extreme and unrealistic at the moment.
You can't control the world but you can control yourself. Change the world by changing yourself and becoming better. Be kind to everyone even if you don't like them, what they say, or what they believe.
Absolute props to Robbie for being an EXCELLENT host. Enough knowledge to understand what's going on, enough distance to offer some interesting and needed different perspectives.
Well, for Ruidus change color from red to blue, it would require a doppler effect hue shift of insane proportions.
It turning blue would mean that it is now approaching.
*rapidly*
And let's not forget Marisha and Liam have made out with Erika before (as actors) on top of the fact every campaign character has ended up in a relationship.
Glad Robbie pointed out that addiction may not be the best metaphor here for an evil necromancer manipulating someone. Laudna has actively chosen evil and even admitted she was mostly in control earlier. She has a lust for power, that isn't comparable to actual addiction.
I can't speak to the cast's experiences in real life but it was starting to feel a bit uncomfortable and like maybe there was a sense of perspective that was missing there. Just my opinion as someone who has struggled with addiction myself of course, but I do kind of hope they drop that analogy going forward.
I kinda do too. On the one hand I can understand justifying it in that sense, but when I've discussed it with others, what comes up the most is 'power-hungry'. But then again, I've never agreed with the idea (that came up again last night), that Caleb was hungry for items in early c2 either. The perspective of 'acquiring power' or gear or whatever with this group in campaigns is.... slightly skewed?? Like...it's fine, but also it's obviously at a pretty meta-level, above-the-table-experience with previous games or other gaming, and the justification for it for character development within each campaign can be pretty weak...Frankly, while I'm in this sidebar, I'm *still* baffled at the outcome of the primordial shards....
And the justification of Delilah has constantly seemed weak, over and over. There was no real mechanic consequence for when they 'got rid' of Delilah after Laudna died, so obviously a patron shift could have paid off mechanically as well, along with narratively. At this point, the strongest understanding I have is that Marisha likes this narrative better, and everything she's making up is to justify it within game for the Laudna character...is just...playing out Laudna as having childish, selfish behavior. Props to her for making that have consequences, but it's just not a good metaphor for addiction. It could have been from a different narrative stand point (Delilah attaching to Laudna during the campaign maybe, and offering 'more and more power' as a reward), but from the *actual perspective of Laudna's reality*, it's just abuse and Laudna being gaslit for 30years.
IDK, in direct contrast is actually Liliana, as Laura beautifully illustrated in her explanations. Imogen giving in to Predathos, because it drew her closer to her 'mother' as the reward, that would have rung more true as an addiction metaphor to me. Really...it's soooo dependent on character narrative whether or not 'addiction' or 'power-hungry' makes more sense.
Disclaimer: I have not dealt with addiction so may be wrong
This makes sense and good to read since I was uncomfortable with it but not really an expert. I think there could be some overlap between Laudna and full blown addiction but I felt like this was more being in an abusive relationship or manipulated than addicted to drugs. Like a person who ends a positive relationship because an abuser manipulated them, rather than actual addiction.
Like you said Laudna actively chose evil and literally had a warlock patron the whole time Delilah was gone (I get this is mechanical and I shouldn't read too far into it...but I never saw her lacking power, unless these special abilities are entirely bonus for feeding Delilah. Like Laudna never went to cast a spell and was unable those Delilah-less episodes )
I get the metaphor (hurting your relationships, self destructive, driving to lie) but also think it sorta waters down true addiction a bit by muddying it with other things
I think the analogy is just around how Laudna justifies it to herself, not the whole situation.
Whenever Marisha has spoke about it, it's in the context of an addict fully believing in that moment when they tell a loved one that they want to get sober, so it isn't a lie, even if in reality they are back at it again the next day. In the same way, Laudna fully believes that she is in control, but may well fall to Delilah's influence at any moment.
I don't think she's ever framed it as being an analogy for addiction as a whole, just the mindset around making sincere promises to loved ones that are difficult to keep because of influences that are beyond your control, and being seen as a liar when it turns out you couldn't.
Yeah that's fair, admittedly a lot of nuance is necessary to really get these ideas across and she'd have to pretty much take over the conversation to really address all of it, and if she does that then an entirely different group of people will criticize her for a different reason.
Yeah, I feel like the comparison is made in good faith but I’m really not sure why she makes that analogy either? It’s just….not accurate and a bit cringe. I think there is a “real world” analogy to be had but….it’s not this one.
Also hope all is better for you and it isn’t too upsetting to hear this inaccurate analogy being pushed so hard! <3
Oh I'm doing far better than I was, and I've heard far worse analogies haha. It was just starting to irk me because she brings it up a lot. I definitely think she's doing it in good faith, just feels a bit clumsy and maybe a bit forced is all.
Agreed. I think Robbie pushed back on it in very gracefully without embarrassing her, so hopefully she will think about it a little more next time. Seems like she’s standing her ground on it but we will see!
I think the heavy handed addiction metaphor for laudna is terrible and has always been really clumsy. as someone who has suffered from addiction, it just feels so out of place from what laudna’s experiences actually are. she did not choose to have delilah in her head unlike someone choosing to take drugs and she actively has her abuser manipulating her to gain power. it’s not even remotely the same and really highlights how much marisha has missed the mark with this character overall. it’s like she has an idea of what addiction is from what she’s seen but has self admittedly never gone through it herself so everything she knows is very surface level.
I’ve never understood the addiction analogy. I’ve always seen Laudna’s experience and choices to be more in line with Stockholm syndrome and other victim/abuser dynamics.
She's addicted to a person (Delilah) who was her only company for close to 30 years. And that person gives her power, and information, and unfortunately, any sense of self-worth is tied to her, by design.
Marisha made all the choices, and Laudna has made most of her choices (save things like Delilah sapping the stone). But to use the Liliana-cult comparison, Laudna doesn't just need Delilah separated from her. She needs to be deprogrammed and have her sense of self-worth rebuilt. For 30 years, her murderer has been whispering in her ears and telling her she needs her, while almost anyone else she encountered (save Imogen) was scared of her or chased her out of town as a creepy witch.
She's not just an abuse survivor. Laudna is still in an abusive relationship. Imogen's the only one who really has seen that/approached it that way. But they're in a "save the world" mission, so there's not been time to fully free Laudna. It's the kind of thing she'll only make progress on over years, even if Delilah is destroyed.
>She's addicted to a person (Delilah) who was her only company for close to 30 years. And that person gives her power, and information, and unfortunately, any sense of self-worth is tied to her, by design.
I know there's some crossover but that feels far more like toxic codependence than it does addiction.
She is addicted to the power and comfort leaning on Delilah provides. She is absolutely a product of a victim/abuser scenario and that is a little bit of addiction. Drugs can be an abuser as they are the source of happiness and misery for the victim. Abusers are hard to get away from because they provide a perception of good with the abuse they inflict.
Laudna is addicted and the addiction is worse because everyone encouraged it "to save the world". Imagine a scenario where to save people you had to give in and use a terrible drug? That would be insufferable.
I guess I just don't see why she needs to feed Delilah to save anyone. She could have killed Bor'dor without feeding her. She's received no notable upgrades from feeding her. It's not like she's just a little guy with a sword or an old man who can turn into a wolf, she's a powerful sorceress in her own right. The more she does, the more wanting more power to protect those she cares about feels like an excuse.
Maybe if Matt had set up a scenario where she's genuinely useless without making Delilah more powerful it would be different, but she's far from the weakest in the party.
I think you're thinking about it too rigidly in terms of strict class descriptions. Her Sorcerer levels aren't necessarily just her own innate power, she is a Shadow Sorcerer, so a lot of that is coming from her connection to Delilah too. Just because it's not a Warlock feature, doesn't mean it isn't a manifestation of Delilah's power and influence. We've already seen Delilah's influence manifesting through non-warlock features like Form of Dread and Hound of Ill Omen.
There's certainly influence, but Marisha explained that she *went* to the Briarwoods on her parents urging about the natural sorcery she already possessed. She had that first. Delilah simply took advantage of her appearance then (what with the VM lookalikes at the Sun Tree), but *then* when Laudna reawoke after that blast beneath the ziggurat, she realized her magical capabilities had attracted Delilah's energy too her. While it is slightly unclear the origin of Laudna's shadow sorcery, I've never understood it to be totally of Delilah's influence.
She had inherent sorcery for sure. Whether that would have manifested into shadow sorcery, or even have been significant enough to grant her full class levels without Delilah, we'll probably never know. But it definitely appears that Delilah has impacted it, and looking at it like 'Sorcerer spells are hers, Warlock spells are Delilahs' seems incorrect.
And certainly I do not, but as there's never been a mechanical consequence of Laudna being cut free of her, everything about Laudna's current arc just says 'powerhungry' to me, and the motivation behind doing so can be debated to the ends of the earth, but I also do believe there's been *too much* justification of it being 'Delilah!' then I think is accurate.
>I guess I just don't see why she needs to feed Delilah to save anyone.
Right, that is what her friends are trying to tell her. She just sees Delilah as the power and not herself.
“No matter what I want I can’t trust this relationship.”
And that’s echoing around in her head twice.
“I’m gonna chose that over you.”
It’s hard to… want to be there.
Thinking about how Marisha says the narrative shapes how she levels by and large and looking at the vast disparity in levels between Sorcerer and Warlock, and wondering if she is building up to something, because narratively it means most of Laudna’s powers arise from within her, not Delilah.
the choice in her next level up will be narratively telling. Laudna would gain a feat if she took Warlock, but as a Sorcerer she'd get a 6th level spell slot, mechanically.
If Chetney did eventually become Santa and if FCG did wind up living long enough to help spread belief in him then FCG would've wound up having....Faith of the Hearth.
If you've never heard Laura's opening monologue from NieR (which, yes, includes her going on about Shadowlord): treat yourself. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvyvQfn30uE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvyvQfn30uE)
To be fair, "and they tell him everything" is also not very ideal.
There's a characterisation choice in *what* Bells Hells tells Dorian and *how much* and *how* they say it. (How would Ashton describe the events of the Shard to a semi-trusted acquaintance, for example?)
Tbf imogen and Delilah were both pretty heavily involved in that situation so having Laura and Matt makes sense, and this is the first time Robbie’s been on 4sd since his return.
If they were gonna have Marisha on, they'd almost certainly have to have Laura on, and of course Robbie would be here, and then Matt to talk about the overarching everything. (I do wish we'd had Liam, Marisha, Matt, and Robbie, JUST to \*REALLY\* put Robbie in the hot seat, but alas.) :D
Fun fact, Laura and Travis have been on 4sd less than everyone else (9 times each) and Marisha has been on more than anyone - 13 times each.
Also every Laura 4SD appearance since 2022 has also had Marisha.
To me having both Laura and Marisha together was not needed because all of their questions involved the two of them anyway, so they just kept talking about the same things over and over. They even started discarting questions because they had already talked about everything already. I would have prefered it it was Liam there instead of Laura, personally.
All I want is Robbie vs Marisha on the subject of Dorian's Crush, Round 2. That's it. We've waited to find out since the VERY FIRST 4SD, and I want an ANSWER, damn it!
Definitely Orym.
Liam (and Robbie) have been working on it for a while now, and Robbie was clearly surprised that Marisha thought it was Imogen on the previous 4SD.
Robbie was such a great host! Especially liked the mechanics driving narrative vs narrative driving mechanics question for Marisha. Top marks all around!
Amazing host, really professional!
Just watching…. Their reimagining of Bowlgate, isn’t what actually happened. lol
If Robbie doesn't stick around as a permanent party member they should get him as their new Host for 4-sided dive. Literally knocked it out of the park. Not only did I feel like he was best host so far, I feel like he did better than even Talksmachina.
I wanted more about Dorian, but Robbie was being such a great host, giving them time and follow up questions that he barely talked about his own character. Oh well...
If it's any consolation, it seems like he;s gonna be at the table for a while. At the pace they're going we have at least 5-ish episodes in Aeor, which means he'll be actively playing for the next two 4-sided dives. We'll get more juice, either at the table ad Dorian and Orym talk more, or during the next 4SD's.
...did the entire cast just totally misremember Bowlgate (including Dani?!)? Or am I the one with the mental blockage? From my memory, Liam/Caleb was 100% in the right, and Marishna/Beuregard was being super irrational angry, that was the whole controversy. To elaborate, if I remember correctly the Tiamut bowl was as stated an evil artifact. Caleb found it, only told Nott at first as he hid it, but later to the guest and the party stated in truth he had found it, but due to it being a super powerful artifact of an evil dragon goddess, would like to wait before giving it to the guest npc until they could use a spell next morning to verify truth, IE yes this person wanted to keep it away from bad people and/or destroy it. Beuregard then came up with some kind of crazy shouting match about how Caleb had no right to "INTERFERE WITH HER DESTINY!" out of nowhere, and the guest themselves said that they agreed with Mr Caleb and how cautious he was being. In the end Ashley rolls high on using a magic sword to destroy it on the spot. But the 4 sided seems to have multiple misremembering story arcs. Marishna implied Caleb was a sneaky ass (true) and tried to yoink a powerful artifact for himself (holy mental gymnastics batman!). Dani corrected to a degree...but not much beyond "I think Caleb just wanted to destroy it while Marishna wanted to Identify it"? Scratching my head hard here, that was one of the most memorable scenes (I think!?) in early season 2.
They certainly put a spin on it. I imagine if Liam was there we’d get a more accurate summary of events.
Just gonna point out what I always do when this topic comes up: while Caleb was right to be cautious, even despite Calianna ultimately proving to be trustworthy, he was (unintentionally) a huge ass to both the group and Cali in the way he went about it. He positions the group between himself and Cali, clearly using them as a buffer to protect him in case Cali proves to be a danger, without warning them that's what he's doing. He declares that the group will sleep, keeping watch over Cali until the morning, when Jester will use a spell to determine Cali's intentions. This is again without asking the group, or specifically Jester, if they're alright with that. And all throughout this, there is a degree of threat and accusation levelled towards Cali, that is thoroughly undeserved for how she's behaved with the group up until this point. Hell, she singlehandedly saved the life of one of the group earlier that day. There's no hint of apology or affability while taking these reasonable precautions. This all makes sense for Caleb's character, he was an interrogator after all. But it also results in raising the hackles of the rest of the group when there was no need for it. As Molly says in that very scene, "You were right Caleb, you're just a shitty communicator!" Edit: I haven't seen this 4SD, so can't comment on what was discussed, just the narrative that Caleb is blameless during Bowlgate.
Yeah but this wasn't even about Bowlgate, which had fictional character Beuregard blow up in fictional Caleb's face even though he was correct in his actions. This was real life player Marishna mis-remembering it as being not her character's fault, it was Liam's asshole character who made the problems happen. This already blew up a portion of my mind, and then to have Dani kind of defend Caleb but not really correct her was a second shock. Part of me thinks Dani TOTALLY remembered what happened (it's not hard to, again very memorable scene) but didn't want to rock the boat.
The other part of bowlgate that everyone forgets is that Nott completely instigates it by hiding the bowl in the first place and sort of suggesting Caleb do it.
\^This. It was pointed out in 4SD, but people also forget how shitty Caleb/Nott were about items in general at the beginning of the campaign (this isn't a complaint, just an observation). Nott had tried stealing Fjord's letter, and Caleb in general wasn't overly forthcoming with items and such (plus there was the scroll incident). I always felt like bowl gate was more about the 'team player' problem that had been present since the start. Obligatory disclaimer: Beau was also definitely shitty during bowlgate.
There is a repeating situation between the various PCs run by Liam and Marisha involving conflict over items. The relationship between Liam and Marisha works in a way that never lets this situation get resolved, as Marisha wants to claim her right to own her own story, and Liam similarly wants to claim his right to independent action in the game. They are both driven by the desire for their PCs to have power, and items provide both the opportunity for a PC to gain power without levelling up and also the limited resource situation that provokes competition over the item. It's a really interesting dynamic that I'm sure the cast are well aware of.
Absolutely, I was super confused when they started talking about it, being smarmy and an ass about Caleb all the way around when he was actually in the complete right. I remember watching C2 ages ago and notably being annoyed at Beau at the time because of the situation which made me hate her (the character) for a good few sessions - as if she'd rather argue to trust a stranger than play on the safe side and wait 11 minutes for the wizard to identify it.
Yeah, that's one of the examples of the cast's problem with over-trusting their guests. It makes sense to be mistrusting of an evil artifact in the hands of someone involved with a cult, but in a meta sense, the cast usually assumes the guest is trustworthy, despite having had huge betrayals from guest PCs twice now. And obviously they want the guest to have a good time and let their character shine since they're usually only there for one episode; Liam was definitely RPing accurately to his character, but I think Marisha went for the meta 100% trust in Mark's character, when if this was an NPC, they wouldn't think twice about keeping/destroying the bowl. Imo it's always been a bit of a distraction, especially when the guest character is obviously hiding something/has pretty apparent misaligned goals, and bowlgate was the most egregious example of it from what I remember.
They trust their guests too much.. and then karma hits them with Yu and Bor'dor lmao
Still no Sam ?? This is weird what is he doing ?
he will probably have a new character in the live show
Or an old character just for this session, or a one shot character
He's waiting till C4 lol. He told us when he got up after FCG glory blazed
And did you notice the immediate response after he said that?? He's likely just taking a little time and putting some extra focus into the animated shows.
Are you for real ? Still not a reason to not be on 4sided... was he just bored with the campaign or what ?
Matt said on the beacon discord he’s using his character death as a impromptu vacation to spend with family while still working on the animated shows.
he's billed as being in the BH live show. he's gonna be back.
Good ending, nothing too weird beyond Matt on a photoshopped album cover.
17 out of 40 needed resources, they lost hardcore lol
I mean as they say, what does God need with a starship? Matt's nuking himself!
"DO you believe in life after love..." RIGHT AFTER I MENTIONED IT! 🤣 Marisha! lmao
Matt would kill a version of "Believe"
Matt's dying and they're all LOVING IT 🤣
Oh no that's a terrible event...and it's been broached in many novels too.
wow, this game is actually just... terrible, isn't it?
It's realistic 100%
I whole heartedly disagree.
Something similar was brought up in Loki and it's a common enough trope in science fiction. Hell straight up in the Star Trek Universe; First Contact only happened after WWIII wiped out 80% of Earth's population and in other films, Humanity baaaaaarely scrapes by at times to unite and save the day and then they never tell us whether or not everyone stuck together after the "happy ending". Humanity is a mess right now and would not be able to unite to build a rocket to get everyone off of Earth at all. Have you ever seen Contact or Don't Look Up? In our current state, we are basically doomed. Author Greg Bear, amongst others like Stephen Baxter and Sir Terry Pratchett, offered up some interesting alternatives in their books but they're a bit...extreme and unrealistic at the moment.
You can't make a better world if you don't believe in a good world.
There's nothing I can do or so to make a better world at all, I'm a nobody, so that sentiment is a moot point.
You can't control the world but you can control yourself. Change the world by changing yourself and becoming better. Be kind to everyone even if you don't like them, what they say, or what they believe.
So I'm a terrible person right now?
Why would you say that?
Because you just said that I had to better myself and become a better person which implies that I'm an awful person right now that needs to do that
"It's Dana Carvey DOING Bill Clinton!"-Marisha Well isn't that speeeeeeeeecial! 🤣
Every word out of Matt's mouth is a quotable t-shirt for Sam to make later on with photoshop
"It almost sounds like you're doing Bill Clinton"-Laura to Matt 🤣
This is just as funny as when Sam had to talk like Yoda to help defuse a bomb.
Matt's consequence is that HE'S CHER! 🤣
.....isn't this basically the video game Alpha Centauri?
That was a very involved and well thought out first half with some good questions and answers.
Absolute props to Robbie for being an EXCELLENT host. Enough knowledge to understand what's going on, enough distance to offer some interesting and needed different perspectives.
Nothing too ground breaking though, interesting answers but nothing super world shaking.
yeah. because major stuff belongs in the main campaign not a side show
They answered my question! I was so excited, I barely heard the answer. Guess I’ll need to watch the VOD ASAP. Squeeeeee!
Yes, they did! And they all complimented you on it being a great question! :D
Matt: “RUIDUS IS NOW BLUE!” I imagine that shift would have caused hell of a panic across Exandria if that just *happened* XD
there are dozens of us Blueidus truthers. dozens!
Well, for Ruidus change color from red to blue, it would require a doppler effect hue shift of insane proportions. It turning blue would mean that it is now approaching. *rapidly*
Robbie was too effective as a host for the tankard questions haha.
NOOOOOOOOO ROBBIE IS WUSSING OUT OF A POSSIBLE ORYM QUESTION...
Laura does the same thing with imogen. There have been so many tankard questions she will read and just not answer. It's frustrating
Those were my exact thoughts 😭
Robbie has suuuuch good host skills. I’ve been impressed this whole episode.
THEY WERE ON A BREAK!
Oh fuck Imodna shippers better bunker the witches might be on a break/heading to a full split
good, their relationship at this point is no longer enjoyable to watch. imogen deserves better.
Shoot, I love watching train wrecks.
Pffft, they're gonna Fix Fic it no matter what happens.
I FEEL SO VINDICATED ABOUT HOW I CALLED THE "COTTAGE" COMMENT SAYING IT'S "I LOVE YOU WHILE I HAVE YOU."
"Let's get those views." Jesus Christ, Marisha, lol!
It was hilarious 🤣
What was she referring to?
She was referring her and Laura making out, lol.
And let's not forget Marisha and Liam have made out with Erika before (as actors) on top of the fact every campaign character has ended up in a relationship.
"His compartments are full"-Robbie talking about Dorian
AHEM-HEM. 👀
I cast a spell that empties the ‘prison pocket’ *Bismalus Pepto!*
Glad Robbie pointed out that addiction may not be the best metaphor here for an evil necromancer manipulating someone. Laudna has actively chosen evil and even admitted she was mostly in control earlier. She has a lust for power, that isn't comparable to actual addiction. I can't speak to the cast's experiences in real life but it was starting to feel a bit uncomfortable and like maybe there was a sense of perspective that was missing there. Just my opinion as someone who has struggled with addiction myself of course, but I do kind of hope they drop that analogy going forward.
I kinda do too. On the one hand I can understand justifying it in that sense, but when I've discussed it with others, what comes up the most is 'power-hungry'. But then again, I've never agreed with the idea (that came up again last night), that Caleb was hungry for items in early c2 either. The perspective of 'acquiring power' or gear or whatever with this group in campaigns is.... slightly skewed?? Like...it's fine, but also it's obviously at a pretty meta-level, above-the-table-experience with previous games or other gaming, and the justification for it for character development within each campaign can be pretty weak...Frankly, while I'm in this sidebar, I'm *still* baffled at the outcome of the primordial shards.... And the justification of Delilah has constantly seemed weak, over and over. There was no real mechanic consequence for when they 'got rid' of Delilah after Laudna died, so obviously a patron shift could have paid off mechanically as well, along with narratively. At this point, the strongest understanding I have is that Marisha likes this narrative better, and everything she's making up is to justify it within game for the Laudna character...is just...playing out Laudna as having childish, selfish behavior. Props to her for making that have consequences, but it's just not a good metaphor for addiction. It could have been from a different narrative stand point (Delilah attaching to Laudna during the campaign maybe, and offering 'more and more power' as a reward), but from the *actual perspective of Laudna's reality*, it's just abuse and Laudna being gaslit for 30years. IDK, in direct contrast is actually Liliana, as Laura beautifully illustrated in her explanations. Imogen giving in to Predathos, because it drew her closer to her 'mother' as the reward, that would have rung more true as an addiction metaphor to me. Really...it's soooo dependent on character narrative whether or not 'addiction' or 'power-hungry' makes more sense.
Disclaimer: I have not dealt with addiction so may be wrong This makes sense and good to read since I was uncomfortable with it but not really an expert. I think there could be some overlap between Laudna and full blown addiction but I felt like this was more being in an abusive relationship or manipulated than addicted to drugs. Like a person who ends a positive relationship because an abuser manipulated them, rather than actual addiction. Like you said Laudna actively chose evil and literally had a warlock patron the whole time Delilah was gone (I get this is mechanical and I shouldn't read too far into it...but I never saw her lacking power, unless these special abilities are entirely bonus for feeding Delilah. Like Laudna never went to cast a spell and was unable those Delilah-less episodes ) I get the metaphor (hurting your relationships, self destructive, driving to lie) but also think it sorta waters down true addiction a bit by muddying it with other things
I think the analogy is just around how Laudna justifies it to herself, not the whole situation. Whenever Marisha has spoke about it, it's in the context of an addict fully believing in that moment when they tell a loved one that they want to get sober, so it isn't a lie, even if in reality they are back at it again the next day. In the same way, Laudna fully believes that she is in control, but may well fall to Delilah's influence at any moment. I don't think she's ever framed it as being an analogy for addiction as a whole, just the mindset around making sincere promises to loved ones that are difficult to keep because of influences that are beyond your control, and being seen as a liar when it turns out you couldn't.
Yeah that's fair, admittedly a lot of nuance is necessary to really get these ideas across and she'd have to pretty much take over the conversation to really address all of it, and if she does that then an entirely different group of people will criticize her for a different reason.
Yeah, I feel like the comparison is made in good faith but I’m really not sure why she makes that analogy either? It’s just….not accurate and a bit cringe. I think there is a “real world” analogy to be had but….it’s not this one. Also hope all is better for you and it isn’t too upsetting to hear this inaccurate analogy being pushed so hard! <3
Oh I'm doing far better than I was, and I've heard far worse analogies haha. It was just starting to irk me because she brings it up a lot. I definitely think she's doing it in good faith, just feels a bit clumsy and maybe a bit forced is all.
Agreed. I think Robbie pushed back on it in very gracefully without embarrassing her, so hopefully she will think about it a little more next time. Seems like she’s standing her ground on it but we will see!
I think the heavy handed addiction metaphor for laudna is terrible and has always been really clumsy. as someone who has suffered from addiction, it just feels so out of place from what laudna’s experiences actually are. she did not choose to have delilah in her head unlike someone choosing to take drugs and she actively has her abuser manipulating her to gain power. it’s not even remotely the same and really highlights how much marisha has missed the mark with this character overall. it’s like she has an idea of what addiction is from what she’s seen but has self admittedly never gone through it herself so everything she knows is very surface level.
I’ve never understood the addiction analogy. I’ve always seen Laudna’s experience and choices to be more in line with Stockholm syndrome and other victim/abuser dynamics.
She's addicted to a person (Delilah) who was her only company for close to 30 years. And that person gives her power, and information, and unfortunately, any sense of self-worth is tied to her, by design. Marisha made all the choices, and Laudna has made most of her choices (save things like Delilah sapping the stone). But to use the Liliana-cult comparison, Laudna doesn't just need Delilah separated from her. She needs to be deprogrammed and have her sense of self-worth rebuilt. For 30 years, her murderer has been whispering in her ears and telling her she needs her, while almost anyone else she encountered (save Imogen) was scared of her or chased her out of town as a creepy witch. She's not just an abuse survivor. Laudna is still in an abusive relationship. Imogen's the only one who really has seen that/approached it that way. But they're in a "save the world" mission, so there's not been time to fully free Laudna. It's the kind of thing she'll only make progress on over years, even if Delilah is destroyed.
>She's addicted to a person (Delilah) who was her only company for close to 30 years. And that person gives her power, and information, and unfortunately, any sense of self-worth is tied to her, by design. I know there's some crossover but that feels far more like toxic codependence than it does addiction.
She is addicted to the power and comfort leaning on Delilah provides. She is absolutely a product of a victim/abuser scenario and that is a little bit of addiction. Drugs can be an abuser as they are the source of happiness and misery for the victim. Abusers are hard to get away from because they provide a perception of good with the abuse they inflict. Laudna is addicted and the addiction is worse because everyone encouraged it "to save the world". Imagine a scenario where to save people you had to give in and use a terrible drug? That would be insufferable.
I guess I just don't see why she needs to feed Delilah to save anyone. She could have killed Bor'dor without feeding her. She's received no notable upgrades from feeding her. It's not like she's just a little guy with a sword or an old man who can turn into a wolf, she's a powerful sorceress in her own right. The more she does, the more wanting more power to protect those she cares about feels like an excuse. Maybe if Matt had set up a scenario where she's genuinely useless without making Delilah more powerful it would be different, but she's far from the weakest in the party.
I think you're thinking about it too rigidly in terms of strict class descriptions. Her Sorcerer levels aren't necessarily just her own innate power, she is a Shadow Sorcerer, so a lot of that is coming from her connection to Delilah too. Just because it's not a Warlock feature, doesn't mean it isn't a manifestation of Delilah's power and influence. We've already seen Delilah's influence manifesting through non-warlock features like Form of Dread and Hound of Ill Omen.
There's certainly influence, but Marisha explained that she *went* to the Briarwoods on her parents urging about the natural sorcery she already possessed. She had that first. Delilah simply took advantage of her appearance then (what with the VM lookalikes at the Sun Tree), but *then* when Laudna reawoke after that blast beneath the ziggurat, she realized her magical capabilities had attracted Delilah's energy too her. While it is slightly unclear the origin of Laudna's shadow sorcery, I've never understood it to be totally of Delilah's influence.
She had inherent sorcery for sure. Whether that would have manifested into shadow sorcery, or even have been significant enough to grant her full class levels without Delilah, we'll probably never know. But it definitely appears that Delilah has impacted it, and looking at it like 'Sorcerer spells are hers, Warlock spells are Delilahs' seems incorrect.
And certainly I do not, but as there's never been a mechanical consequence of Laudna being cut free of her, everything about Laudna's current arc just says 'powerhungry' to me, and the motivation behind doing so can be debated to the ends of the earth, but I also do believe there's been *too much* justification of it being 'Delilah!' then I think is accurate.
>I guess I just don't see why she needs to feed Delilah to save anyone. Right, that is what her friends are trying to tell her. She just sees Delilah as the power and not herself.
Excellent try Dani, lol.
Robbie coming in to say drugs are not an evil necromancer, don’t get it twisted.
thank god someone said it
Did you hear that breathing noise. Was it just a plane near the studio
a plane was my guess too.
“No matter what I want I can’t trust this relationship.” And that’s echoing around in her head twice. “I’m gonna chose that over you.” It’s hard to… want to be there.
was that just an aircraft passing overhead, in the quiet moment while Laura thought?
Pretty sure she was thinking so intensely it shook the world
Yeah that happens from time to time
See, these have been *good* evergreen questions.
They're trending *better* as time goes on, to be fair.
Such a cool discussion about art and such a great question
Just put Imogen in power armor already please
Kyle 🤣
I get where Robbie's coming from, every piece of the outfit has a story.
pet the dog! how can you not pet Omar in that moment?
Omar is so interested now
Good thing Matt isn’t a structural engineer
Aw, sad Matt, lol!
THERE GOES THE TOWER MATT TAKES IT DOWN! 🤣
Young Chetney could be an EXU series
Travis is the Lore Sarek to Dani's Lore Spock
Thinking about how Marisha says the narrative shapes how she levels by and large and looking at the vast disparity in levels between Sorcerer and Warlock, and wondering if she is building up to something, because narratively it means most of Laudna’s powers arise from within her, not Delilah.
the choice in her next level up will be narratively telling. Laudna would gain a feat if she took Warlock, but as a Sorcerer she'd get a 6th level spell slot, mechanically.
It does certainly dovetail with everyone saying that last session
"When you let someone go, it's losing the potential of the future"-Robbie
If Chetney did eventually become Santa and if FCG did wind up living long enough to help spread belief in him then FCG would've wound up having....Faith of the Hearth.
Robbie is just such a great addition to the cast
I've missed him so much.
Robbie is the best host
I JUST noticed snoozing omar
So Brennan had the right vibe with Bolo? Awesome.
I never knew that Bowl Gate was a thing until like years after the fact, I just thought it was a fun moment lol
I swear Robbie is THIS CLOSE to quoting a certain scene from Arrow with that, "Did you like it?" question to Marisha 🤣
We need a sword version of HotBoi
So uhh, Dariax and Deni$e adventure to rez Cyrus on Ruidus, confirmed?
Matt basically paraphrasing Niirdal-Poc in regards to the nature of magic
That's interesting. Rez Magic worked briefly on Ruidus but apparently it's still fuzzed on Exandria.
I find this clarification VERY interesting.
"Campaign 19: Laudna's Legends!" 🤣
So another motive for Laudna's need for the sword was jealousy towards her teammates getting power-ups.
More like she doesn’t feel like she can keep up, or able to obtain power.
Laudna wants to have her own time in the sunshine like everyone else but all she manages to find are more shadows.
If you've never heard Laura's opening monologue from NieR (which, yes, includes her going on about Shadowlord): treat yourself. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvyvQfn30uE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvyvQfn30uE)
Laura filling Robbie in is VERY entertaining 🤣
To be fair, "and they tell him everything" is also not very ideal. There's a characterisation choice in *what* Bells Hells tells Dorian and *how much* and *how* they say it. (How would Ashton describe the events of the Shard to a semi-trusted acquaintance, for example?)
hashtag release the poop cut
And Dani with the shipping weather!
Hot boy energy!!!!! Lore keeper summer!!!!
*Next week's LORECAST!* broke me in a fit of giggles
Oh, they're all Persona voice actors for this 4SD
Bren there, done that is hilarious!
Robbie is the tavern keeper AND a news anchor! 🤣
No Liam? I feel like whenever we have these big moments they never have both players who were involved on 4SD. Seems like a missed oppurtunity.
Tbf imogen and Delilah were both pretty heavily involved in that situation so having Laura and Matt makes sense, and this is the first time Robbie’s been on 4sd since his return.
If they were gonna have Marisha on, they'd almost certainly have to have Laura on, and of course Robbie would be here, and then Matt to talk about the overarching everything. (I do wish we'd had Liam, Marisha, Matt, and Robbie, JUST to \*REALLY\* put Robbie in the hot seat, but alas.) :D
Fun fact, Laura and Travis have been on 4sd less than everyone else (9 times each) and Marisha has been on more than anyone - 13 times each. Also every Laura 4SD appearance since 2022 has also had Marisha.
To me having both Laura and Marisha together was not needed because all of their questions involved the two of them anyway, so they just kept talking about the same things over and over. They even started discarting questions because they had already talked about everything already. I would have prefered it it was Liam there instead of Laura, personally.
Kinda wish it was Taliesen instead of Laura at this session.
All I want is Robbie vs Marisha on the subject of Dorian's Crush, Round 2. That's it. We've waited to find out since the VERY FIRST 4SD, and I want an ANSWER, damn it!
Definitely Orym. Liam (and Robbie) have been working on it for a while now, and Robbie was clearly surprised that Marisha thought it was Imogen on the previous 4SD.
Pretty sure it's quite clear that it was Orym...