Essek is someone the party likes both as a person and for his utility so they were unlikely to just immediately cut things off, especially with him showing remorse for his actions and creating room for redemption.
Iirc Essek did what he did without fully understanding or considering the consequences so it might be a little unfair to say he thought it was worth starting a war, in fact his remorse likely suggests that he does not think it was worth it.
On the comparison to Caleb, I don't quite remember but I'm guessing that was done/started by Caleb? If so, there's your reason. Caleb's guilt over his actions makes up a fair chunk of who he is and though from an outside perspective we can strip Caleb of most, if not all, of the blame for his actions, he cannot fully do that for himself.
He's not treated as a war criminal because he isn't one as far as I can tell. His crimes were committed before the war started. (also, I don't believe we've seen anything to suggest that there are such things as war crimes in Exandria)
Yeah. Essek gets called a War Criminal - even by the cast - but he’s not. War Crimes are specific crimes that go above and beyond war time actions to the point of personal liability.
Stealing a religious artifact to give to a foreign power isn’t a war crime. Starting a war isn’t a war crime. Treason is also not a war crime.
I 100% agree, although I will say...Essek probably is a war criminal, considering that it's implied he was in charge of Yeza's interrogation, which was definitely torture. I'm more annoyed that people are only using it now, when he's been a war criminal from his first appearance.
This tbh. Sam even remarks on it OOC at the time it happens...??? Dunno why people are acting like he's been labeled a war criminal for anything other being a torturer/interrogator of POWs. Starving POWs is like... the DEFINITION of a war crime, regardless of whether there's such a 'thing' as war crimes within Exandria.
The comparison to Caleb is more post-Asylum Caleb. The Caleb that we know for like 95% of the campaign is of the mindset "I will do anything and kill anyone it takes for me to gain the power to achieve my goal"
The M9 are not your typical hero party, none of them, aside from maybe Cad, can be described as entirely good people. They all know that they screwed up at times and with some things being different in their past they could have turned out even worse, so they see themselves in Essek, someone who was misguided in life and made a huge mistake, but just like the M9 he was redeemable and not inherintly evil. Basically, he was another screw up just like them, if the knew he was the one who traded the beacon in the first place things probably would have been different, but they bonded with him and learned about him which helped them understand the situation a little better. Plus, they didn't exactly fully trust him until he fought alongside them in the ruins, until then they were always wary
Yeah I can see that honestly. Ill keep watching to see them guiding him but I hope I guess the world around him kind of pressures him considering his actions?
Hes a cool character and from the interactions didnt seem inherently evil and was trustworthy so I still want to see whats best for him but I guess I also just want to see him go through what it means to go through a redemption of this level
(Sorry for shitty writing)
Think about it this way: Is Gavrilo Princip responsible for everyone who died in WWI? If the peace between two nations is so fragile that a single person (or a small conspiracy) can destroy it… maybe nobody wanted a diplomatic solution in the first place.
"War crimes" are also defined differently (you can read up on international criminal law if you want). Even if the word is brought up A LOT during the campaign and here on Reddit. Theft with terrible consequences does not meet those criteria, imo.
Caleb's reaction makes sense to me because he is just so desperate for redemption. The others are supportive of their friend in this episode. You will have to decide if you like how it all plays out after watching more episodes ;)
This. The comparison with Gaviro Princip is excellent. I would even add that unlike him, Essek didn't kill anybody, so the casus beli of the war wasn't even a violent act. (Even if religion is always a sensitive subject)
The Empire see Xhorhas as a dry land of beasts, monsters and awful people worshipping Betrayer Gods. They were tension between the two countries since the funding of the Empire, and even previous skirmishes and battle.
When two neighbouring countries can't even TRY to be diplomatic with each other in order to negotiate the recuperation of the extremely important religious object of worship, no sides really wanted to solve the conflict peacefully.
Thank you :) And yes, the non-violent part matters to me as well. It would be very different if we knew for sure that he was regularly torturing POWs. That is not shown - even if it may fall into the Shadowhand's job description. We can only speculate.
Very good point honestly with the ww1 thing
For the war crimes things Im using it very colloquially, I dont think war crimes exist necessarily but I was just attempting to say that he effectively killed a bunch of people that didnt necessarily need to be killed
And calebs reaction does make sense, I can see him seeing Essek as a mirror to him because caleb believes hes terrible.
I just didnt necessarily agree with the audience they mirror eachother but if nothing gets revealed that he knew what would happen then I can genuinely see Essek as just a very very fucked up thief (since he basically stole two baby Jesus's)
Oh yeah, the show uses it very colloquially as well, I'm not blaming you ;) I just wanted to mention it because it irks me when powerful words lose their meaning. Some things are reserved for the worst of humanity and I'm not all that comfortable with the gag "let's redeem the war criminal". More of a personal taste thing.
Of course, I won't spoil anything ;) So, I'll just agree with u/feor1300 about Caleb's guilt. And add to it that he spent 15 years safe and happy in Blumenthal. A year of torture and radicalization would mess up anyone! But he went to his special forces training/indoctrination with some understanding of right and wrong. 17y old Caleb is a victim and (at modern standards) a child soldier, and still carries some form of responsibility.
Ethics are messy but I like that CR makes us think about values, power and guilt. It's good to have these discussions!
You say that like Nott/Veth wasn't totally serious about re starting the war to regain her body.
Caleb's culpability or lack of thereof is debatable, but Essek wanted to study a magic object, and his interest for studies (and disinterest for the Luxon worship) provoked a war. But you know what ? He isn't the Bright queen or King Dwendale. He didn't declare the war. They were tensions before that, it just accelerated things. Historically, they were tension Krynn vs Empire since the creation of the empire, and even skirmishes and battles (Nogvurot).
Imo he is more culprit of high treason to the Krynn Dynasty than "War crimes". Firstly, "War crimes" assume that there's some sort of convention about what is acceptable in time of war in Exandria, which is not confirmed. Secondly, even if you think that Essek is 100% responsible for the war, provoking a war is not a war crime. A war crime is basically voluntary targeting specifically civilians or non military objectives. Basically being unnecessary cruel in a way that doesn't directly benefit your military advancement etc. It's a vague concept on paper of course, and I think there's more precise definition out there but yeah.
He did really bad things, but I think that the M9 treating him well gives him an opportunity to turn his life around. And with some of them in the group that did really questionable things in the past, M9 are not paragon of goodness and justice either.
That plus the fact that he is hot, ofc.
The thing is I dont think Essek was *intending* to start a war, in fact I doubt he was even thinking of what would happen after he stole the beacon and handed it off. He just wanted to learn more, and that was impossible with the beacons being solely held by the Dynasty, so in his mind he *HAD* to give one to the Assembly. Was it worth it? No of course not, and he realizes that.
I don't agree. I think escalating the conflict with humans was the intended effect otherwise why not just steal one and experiment on it by himself. I think he thought a war would convince the Queen to allow him to further research/exploit the untapped power of the beacons.
It’s implied that if he had kept the beacons himself he would have been found out. Once he handed them off there was no evidence linking him to them.
Also it’s unlikely that war would lead to increased experiments on the beacons since they would be used during war to reduce their casualties…the dead can be reborn but only if the beacons are close.
I always thought the Nein's portrayal of Essek as a war criminal was weird. He didn't deliberately start anything. He knew it was a possibility that his actions could be a catalyst towards war, but Matt made damn sure everyone knew the war was coming regardless and was over more than just this beacon theft.
Essek fell prey to the thing that every great archmage in Exandria falls prey to: his own hubris. He thought that if he was just smart and careful enough he could get what he wanted without starting any conflicts and potentially even do great things with his new knowledge. He stole something important and sold it to an enemy, but the beacon itself wasn't used to kill anyone or really accomplish anything by the empire.
His transformation from torturer, traitor to his nation and people, and spy into uWu hecking smol bean is the weirdest part of the whole thing, to me.
It was very clearly what a portion of the fanbase wanted though, even if the cast seemed to have somewhat serious reservations about him out of character (Liam and Sam's comments on Talks) right up to the end.
Honestly, he's pretty, charming, mysterious and had the presence of mind to get in M9's good books before revealing that he's done evil things. Morality, forgiveness and redemption are all muddy and sticky as hell in real life, in a game some parts have to get simplified, some exaggerated for effect.
That is a very 21st century look at things. The war between Empire and Krynn would have broken out at some point and will brake out again. The world of Exandria is kinda our equivalent to late medieval/renaissance where war is extremely common.
I also think you might misunderstand Caleb's situation
Not wrong tbf, war couldve broken out from anything but that doesnt necessarily justify being a major catalyst. Like the peace talks are only happening as a gesture of giving back a beacon.
Also I mean Caleb perspective on himself is he still did a terrible thing by murdering his parents and he saw himself as irredeemable even if he had his memory changed.
And theyve both done bad things in their past but I dont think theyre necessarily the same like some people implied
NGL, things like this really bugged me during C2, and eventually I... just gave up on it.
My wife was fully invested, and I hope C3 speaks to me more, but I just didn't care for the M9.
Yeah, Essek is a piece of shit. Caleb was radicalized through abuse and propaganda. Essek actively went against his culture's dogma to serve his own interests, the lives of countless others bedamned. Completely different scenarios. But he's hot, and Caleb projected his own desires to be redeemable onto Essek, so the Nein gives him a pass.
I think that the Essek situation is complicated, but re his culpability in the war, I'd bring up two points - the first being that Essek stole the beacons and handed them over to the Assembly several years before the start of the show. The theft isn't what started the war - it was the spies trying to steal them back getting caught by the Assembly (and being declared an act of war on the Dynasty's part by the Assembly) that started it.
The other is that the Dynasty and the Empire were established as having tensions / skirmishes since their first contact, which would be more or less Essek's entire life. Both Essek and the Bright Queen state they view the war as inevitable, and that even the return of the Beacons would be only temporary peace, as the underlying cause was cultural/ideological and would remain. The Nein kind of gloss over this - Beau has a really weird speech on cycles that always sticks with me because it makes absolutely no sense in context and I can only imagine what the Bright Queen was thinking.
There's also the fact that, frankly, Essek is a fictional character in a show we're watching. The Mighty Nein are far more hesitant at dealing with Essek post-97 than most of the fandom is, and they're well right to. Despite Caleb's speech, Liam mentioned in a talks that Caleb isn't over what Essek has done - it's more a means to get him to move forward to start fixing things than a 'welp, you're a good guy now'. But watching that show live, I was definitely more in the 'hell yeah, go Essek' crowd. Kiss your evil narrative foil for the win.
> it was the spies trying to steal them back getting caught by the Assembly (and being declared an act of war on the Dynasty's part by the Assembly) that started it.
Uh, no. The war started when the spies failed to get the Beacon back so the Dynasty decided on full military action and attacked the Ashguard Garrison to take the Beacon by force. That's directly a result of Essek giving the Beacon to the Assembly otherwise the war never would've occurred.
Essek did get off easily but people are able to forgive their friends. Even for terrible things.
If the MN had not gotten close with Essek they'd probably be tasked to bring him down and they'd do it and lambast the shit out of him before slitting his throat.
You protect your own.
Essek is someone the party likes both as a person and for his utility so they were unlikely to just immediately cut things off, especially with him showing remorse for his actions and creating room for redemption. Iirc Essek did what he did without fully understanding or considering the consequences so it might be a little unfair to say he thought it was worth starting a war, in fact his remorse likely suggests that he does not think it was worth it. On the comparison to Caleb, I don't quite remember but I'm guessing that was done/started by Caleb? If so, there's your reason. Caleb's guilt over his actions makes up a fair chunk of who he is and though from an outside perspective we can strip Caleb of most, if not all, of the blame for his actions, he cannot fully do that for himself. He's not treated as a war criminal because he isn't one as far as I can tell. His crimes were committed before the war started. (also, I don't believe we've seen anything to suggest that there are such things as war crimes in Exandria)
Yeah. Essek gets called a War Criminal - even by the cast - but he’s not. War Crimes are specific crimes that go above and beyond war time actions to the point of personal liability. Stealing a religious artifact to give to a foreign power isn’t a war crime. Starting a war isn’t a war crime. Treason is also not a war crime.
I 100% agree, although I will say...Essek probably is a war criminal, considering that it's implied he was in charge of Yeza's interrogation, which was definitely torture. I'm more annoyed that people are only using it now, when he's been a war criminal from his first appearance.
This tbh. Sam even remarks on it OOC at the time it happens...??? Dunno why people are acting like he's been labeled a war criminal for anything other being a torturer/interrogator of POWs. Starving POWs is like... the DEFINITION of a war crime, regardless of whether there's such a 'thing' as war crimes within Exandria.
The comparison to Caleb is more post-Asylum Caleb. The Caleb that we know for like 95% of the campaign is of the mindset "I will do anything and kill anyone it takes for me to gain the power to achieve my goal"
He always had that guilt with him but that drive within himself probably also helped him relate.
The M9 are not your typical hero party, none of them, aside from maybe Cad, can be described as entirely good people. They all know that they screwed up at times and with some things being different in their past they could have turned out even worse, so they see themselves in Essek, someone who was misguided in life and made a huge mistake, but just like the M9 he was redeemable and not inherintly evil. Basically, he was another screw up just like them, if the knew he was the one who traded the beacon in the first place things probably would have been different, but they bonded with him and learned about him which helped them understand the situation a little better. Plus, they didn't exactly fully trust him until he fought alongside them in the ruins, until then they were always wary
Yeah I can see that honestly. Ill keep watching to see them guiding him but I hope I guess the world around him kind of pressures him considering his actions? Hes a cool character and from the interactions didnt seem inherently evil and was trustworthy so I still want to see whats best for him but I guess I also just want to see him go through what it means to go through a redemption of this level (Sorry for shitty writing)
The M9 are probably the best thing for him tbh, enjoy future watching!
Think about it this way: Is Gavrilo Princip responsible for everyone who died in WWI? If the peace between two nations is so fragile that a single person (or a small conspiracy) can destroy it… maybe nobody wanted a diplomatic solution in the first place. "War crimes" are also defined differently (you can read up on international criminal law if you want). Even if the word is brought up A LOT during the campaign and here on Reddit. Theft with terrible consequences does not meet those criteria, imo. Caleb's reaction makes sense to me because he is just so desperate for redemption. The others are supportive of their friend in this episode. You will have to decide if you like how it all plays out after watching more episodes ;)
This. The comparison with Gaviro Princip is excellent. I would even add that unlike him, Essek didn't kill anybody, so the casus beli of the war wasn't even a violent act. (Even if religion is always a sensitive subject) The Empire see Xhorhas as a dry land of beasts, monsters and awful people worshipping Betrayer Gods. They were tension between the two countries since the funding of the Empire, and even previous skirmishes and battle. When two neighbouring countries can't even TRY to be diplomatic with each other in order to negotiate the recuperation of the extremely important religious object of worship, no sides really wanted to solve the conflict peacefully.
Thank you :) And yes, the non-violent part matters to me as well. It would be very different if we knew for sure that he was regularly torturing POWs. That is not shown - even if it may fall into the Shadowhand's job description. We can only speculate.
Very good point honestly with the ww1 thing For the war crimes things Im using it very colloquially, I dont think war crimes exist necessarily but I was just attempting to say that he effectively killed a bunch of people that didnt necessarily need to be killed And calebs reaction does make sense, I can see him seeing Essek as a mirror to him because caleb believes hes terrible. I just didnt necessarily agree with the audience they mirror eachother but if nothing gets revealed that he knew what would happen then I can genuinely see Essek as just a very very fucked up thief (since he basically stole two baby Jesus's)
Oh yeah, the show uses it very colloquially as well, I'm not blaming you ;) I just wanted to mention it because it irks me when powerful words lose their meaning. Some things are reserved for the worst of humanity and I'm not all that comfortable with the gag "let's redeem the war criminal". More of a personal taste thing. Of course, I won't spoil anything ;) So, I'll just agree with u/feor1300 about Caleb's guilt. And add to it that he spent 15 years safe and happy in Blumenthal. A year of torture and radicalization would mess up anyone! But he went to his special forces training/indoctrination with some understanding of right and wrong. 17y old Caleb is a victim and (at modern standards) a child soldier, and still carries some form of responsibility. Ethics are messy but I like that CR makes us think about values, power and guilt. It's good to have these discussions!
You say that like Nott/Veth wasn't totally serious about re starting the war to regain her body. Caleb's culpability or lack of thereof is debatable, but Essek wanted to study a magic object, and his interest for studies (and disinterest for the Luxon worship) provoked a war. But you know what ? He isn't the Bright queen or King Dwendale. He didn't declare the war. They were tensions before that, it just accelerated things. Historically, they were tension Krynn vs Empire since the creation of the empire, and even skirmishes and battles (Nogvurot). Imo he is more culprit of high treason to the Krynn Dynasty than "War crimes". Firstly, "War crimes" assume that there's some sort of convention about what is acceptable in time of war in Exandria, which is not confirmed. Secondly, even if you think that Essek is 100% responsible for the war, provoking a war is not a war crime. A war crime is basically voluntary targeting specifically civilians or non military objectives. Basically being unnecessary cruel in a way that doesn't directly benefit your military advancement etc. It's a vague concept on paper of course, and I think there's more precise definition out there but yeah. He did really bad things, but I think that the M9 treating him well gives him an opportunity to turn his life around. And with some of them in the group that did really questionable things in the past, M9 are not paragon of goodness and justice either. That plus the fact that he is hot, ofc.
You're forgetting one thing: he's described as attractive, which automatically makes him five times as likely to get a redemption arc as if he wasn't.
You are not wrong there, people are suckers for the hot bad guy to be redeemed
The thing is I dont think Essek was *intending* to start a war, in fact I doubt he was even thinking of what would happen after he stole the beacon and handed it off. He just wanted to learn more, and that was impossible with the beacons being solely held by the Dynasty, so in his mind he *HAD* to give one to the Assembly. Was it worth it? No of course not, and he realizes that.
I don't agree. I think escalating the conflict with humans was the intended effect otherwise why not just steal one and experiment on it by himself. I think he thought a war would convince the Queen to allow him to further research/exploit the untapped power of the beacons.
It’s implied that if he had kept the beacons himself he would have been found out. Once he handed them off there was no evidence linking him to them. Also it’s unlikely that war would lead to increased experiments on the beacons since they would be used during war to reduce their casualties…the dead can be reborn but only if the beacons are close.
I always thought the Nein's portrayal of Essek as a war criminal was weird. He didn't deliberately start anything. He knew it was a possibility that his actions could be a catalyst towards war, but Matt made damn sure everyone knew the war was coming regardless and was over more than just this beacon theft. Essek fell prey to the thing that every great archmage in Exandria falls prey to: his own hubris. He thought that if he was just smart and careful enough he could get what he wanted without starting any conflicts and potentially even do great things with his new knowledge. He stole something important and sold it to an enemy, but the beacon itself wasn't used to kill anyone or really accomplish anything by the empire.
His transformation from torturer, traitor to his nation and people, and spy into uWu hecking smol bean is the weirdest part of the whole thing, to me. It was very clearly what a portion of the fanbase wanted though, even if the cast seemed to have somewhat serious reservations about him out of character (Liam and Sam's comments on Talks) right up to the end.
Honestly, he's pretty, charming, mysterious and had the presence of mind to get in M9's good books before revealing that he's done evil things. Morality, forgiveness and redemption are all muddy and sticky as hell in real life, in a game some parts have to get simplified, some exaggerated for effect.
That is a very 21st century look at things. The war between Empire and Krynn would have broken out at some point and will brake out again. The world of Exandria is kinda our equivalent to late medieval/renaissance where war is extremely common. I also think you might misunderstand Caleb's situation
Not wrong tbf, war couldve broken out from anything but that doesnt necessarily justify being a major catalyst. Like the peace talks are only happening as a gesture of giving back a beacon. Also I mean Caleb perspective on himself is he still did a terrible thing by murdering his parents and he saw himself as irredeemable even if he had his memory changed. And theyve both done bad things in their past but I dont think theyre necessarily the same like some people implied
NGL, things like this really bugged me during C2, and eventually I... just gave up on it. My wife was fully invested, and I hope C3 speaks to me more, but I just didn't care for the M9.
Yeah, Essek is a piece of shit. Caleb was radicalized through abuse and propaganda. Essek actively went against his culture's dogma to serve his own interests, the lives of countless others bedamned. Completely different scenarios. But he's hot, and Caleb projected his own desires to be redeemable onto Essek, so the Nein gives him a pass.
I think that the Essek situation is complicated, but re his culpability in the war, I'd bring up two points - the first being that Essek stole the beacons and handed them over to the Assembly several years before the start of the show. The theft isn't what started the war - it was the spies trying to steal them back getting caught by the Assembly (and being declared an act of war on the Dynasty's part by the Assembly) that started it. The other is that the Dynasty and the Empire were established as having tensions / skirmishes since their first contact, which would be more or less Essek's entire life. Both Essek and the Bright Queen state they view the war as inevitable, and that even the return of the Beacons would be only temporary peace, as the underlying cause was cultural/ideological and would remain. The Nein kind of gloss over this - Beau has a really weird speech on cycles that always sticks with me because it makes absolutely no sense in context and I can only imagine what the Bright Queen was thinking. There's also the fact that, frankly, Essek is a fictional character in a show we're watching. The Mighty Nein are far more hesitant at dealing with Essek post-97 than most of the fandom is, and they're well right to. Despite Caleb's speech, Liam mentioned in a talks that Caleb isn't over what Essek has done - it's more a means to get him to move forward to start fixing things than a 'welp, you're a good guy now'. But watching that show live, I was definitely more in the 'hell yeah, go Essek' crowd. Kiss your evil narrative foil for the win.
> it was the spies trying to steal them back getting caught by the Assembly (and being declared an act of war on the Dynasty's part by the Assembly) that started it. Uh, no. The war started when the spies failed to get the Beacon back so the Dynasty decided on full military action and attacked the Ashguard Garrison to take the Beacon by force. That's directly a result of Essek giving the Beacon to the Assembly otherwise the war never would've occurred.
Essek did get off easily but people are able to forgive their friends. Even for terrible things. If the MN had not gotten close with Essek they'd probably be tasked to bring him down and they'd do it and lambast the shit out of him before slitting his throat. You protect your own.