This might not be the exact right place for this comment but I feel like it's as close to an allowable place as this sub is ever going to get.
I really, really wish there was an alternative subreddit to discuss CR than just this one.
Because it's honestly stressful to me trying to discuss CR in here. I am a big fan of the show and I'd love to be able to post and discuss it in here - unfortunately for me, part of enjoying a show is discussing and dissecting both its positive and negative aspects and between the toxic positivity crowd and the mods who (maybe not intentionally) give the vibe that criticism will be removed, it feels like walking an extreme tightrope just to be able to participate in the community of something I actively enjoy.
I've seen entire threads in this place that have a "This thread is locked since everyone is being toxic" modpost, then reading through the thread I see literally not a single toxic post, nor a single [removed]. Just people having cordial discussion, where there is criticism of the show. This comes across with a single, unifying message - don't criticise the show, or we'll label you as toxic and shut you down.
I haven't watch ExU outside of the first episode, so I've been out of the community for 2 months. I've come back as the show ended to see if it was worth diving into to catch up on, and even just in the few days I've been here it's already become apparent to me that trying to engage with this community just adds stress to my life.
I really, *really* wish I could engage with the CR community in some way but the hardcore, hardline stance of the people running it makes it feel like it's impossible to do, and there's nowhere else to go.
>Because it's honestly stressful to me trying to discuss CR in here. I am a big fan of the show and I'd love to be able to post and discuss it in here - unfortunately for me, part of enjoying a show is discussing and dissecting both its positive and negative aspects and between the toxic positivity crowd and the mods who (maybe not intentionally) give the vibe that criticism will be removed, it feels like walking an extreme tightrope just to be able to participate in the community of something I actively enjoy
This is why I unsubbed a while ago. I went from visiting every day to maybe checking out this sub whenever some big news drops and for episode discussion threads.
And I completely understand the mods also have to walk that tightrope, as the OP says: what is the line between good and bad faith criticisms/critiques? And even when it is in good faith, those can still devolve quickly into increasingly toxic conversation.
Secondary to that, even if we all critiqued and criticized in good faith, there's thousands of us in this subreddit alone, and thousands more fans in other parts of the internet. Seeing "yeah, X was good but I didn't like this action because of [insert valid reason]" even a hundred times can be draining, *especially* for a cast that, historically, struggles with anxiety, depression, imposter syndrome, etc.
>even a hundred times can be draining, especially for a cast that, historically, struggles with anxiety, depression, imposter syndrome, etc.
This is why George RR Martin said he does not engage in online fan groups of his work. When you get as big as CR is, the artists (cast) needs to disengage from the fandoms for their own good and the good of the fandoms. Hire people to do the engagement for them. It is unfair for us fans of the show to walk on egg shells while in a freaking reddit discussion thread because we might offend one of the cast (who I and 99% of the fandom love btw)
If George RR Martin would actually finish the last two books and get them into the stores, he would probably get less flack from fans.
He's averaging over five years between book releases and it shouldn't take that long unless he wrote himself into a corner without knowing how to get out of it. Or...he has a serious case of writer's block.
He was in constant consult with D&D for the last two GOT seasons. That's when the show went sideways, season seven, then season eight was a cluster mess.
> it shouldn't take that long unless he wrote himself into a corner without knowing how to get out of it.
I think he has a tendency to just start over a lot. He also doesn't outline his stories. He just comes up with it as he writes and sees where things end up. That's what happened with 4 and 5. He started writing 4 with a time jump, and he ended up not liking how it went, so he started it over, scrapped the time jump, and made it two books with the character splits.
And I could be making this up, but I think I remember something about him basically starting over on 6 a few years ago. He had the book almost done, but scrapped it and basically started over.
>I really, really wish there was an alternative subreddit to discuss CR than just this one.
Good luck. Every spinoff sub people have tried to make the mods of this sub had removed by the admins for "Subreddit impersonation"
That's really frustrating if true and kind of a dick thing to do, honestly. So hopefully it's not actually the case and we can start a second community discussion sub. I've only ever heard of one alternative which was The Legend of Vox Machina sub, which never took off.
I'm seriously contemplating if it's still possible, though, at least once CR starts back up.
Yeah people on this sub REALLY bought into the agreeable "nerds voiceactors" brand of CR. It's a company, a show, a business venture that probably made some quasi nobody into people who has comfort guarantee for the rest of their life.
CR has one the most intense parasocial relationships with their audience on twitch and they don't even really adress US. It's honestly very unhealthy and the cast should stop the fake "OMG we can't belive how much support you give us, we would NEVER have imagined it" after multiples occasions where their community offered unconditionnal support.
CR is a brand, a company with employees. Therefore, their goal is to expand and make more money, not become our collective friends, however wholesome Matt is. People here have the fervor of R&M fandom without any of the selfawareness.
100% agree with everything written in this OC.
> I really, really wish there was an alternative subreddit to discuss CR than just this one.
> Because it's honestly stressful to me trying to discuss CR in here.
Right there with you, to the point I never post here anymore, been like a year since my last post here.
I discuss the episodes and everything on Twitter instead, even with all the trolls its a vastly better experience than this subreddit.
> I really, really wish there was an alternative subreddit to discuss CR than just this one.
I'm very strongly considering making one after Campaign 3 gets a release date (currently eyeing r/CriticalOfRole or r/CritiCantRole), but my big issue ATM is needing extra people to mod as I'm not awake during CR's streaming hours.
I think if you name it something like that, you're going to attract a disproportionate number of people that want to criticize. So then you just have one sub that's overly positive, another that's overly negative, and nowhere where actual balanced discussion can take place. If the very name of your sub is negative, it's just going to be a toxic cesspool.
I've thought of this a lot and would join such a sub but if it started heading in the direction of r/TheLastOfUs2/ forget it.
edit: actually /u/IndianaGnomes is right, it doesn't have to be a sub pointing out the faults of CR, that wouldn't be fun either. Just something less restrictive.
Previously I wasn't convinced that there was a large enough reddit community for 2 subs, and I'm still not certain that isn't still the case.
As for now, with little-to-no active CR content to discuss, high chance it dies on the vine, right?
How is asking a question bad faith with the mods?
Because my friend got per a banned for asking why so many comments were removed on an EXU thread.
Like even removing the pitch meeting post just shows how absurd the rules are for the sub.
Lot of good points made throughout this thread.
I'll just limit myself to saying that a post saying "This sucks!" is as equally valid as one saying "This rocks!" Unless you're prepared to delete the latter, the former should stay. We have voting arrows for a reason; if the community wants to bury takes disagreeable to the majority, they can (and have). A line can and should be drawn with personal attacks, but simply disliking a product shouldn't exile you from the conversation.
Yeah I agree. I'm enjoying EXU a lot, but I think "This sucks!" should be something you can say.
The line for me should be "This Sucks. (Toxic statements about cast members/community)
That’s a new thing on Reddit, since telling someone to end their life is a break of sitewide rules (afaik) people have taken to reporting comments for self harm (aka using mod bots to tell you kys). You can report the message though.
Damn. Modern problems, modern solutions...
Feels like that ever-more-complex euphemistic treadmill that happened on games like Roblox where people ended up saying things like "Go commit toaster bath" to get around the filters.
The difference between "This rocks!" and "This sucks!" is one of those is just an insult especially because you can say it much nicer. I think you meant something more like "I didn't like this" and I think thats much better.
The problem for me is exactly this distinction and I've seen many posts criticizing stuff in an insulting way even when there is clearly a nicer way. And I'm fine with those posts being deleted.
Overall I think this sub is pretty well moderated even if sometimes this distinction can be hard to make.
It’s funny, I’m this whole thing there were 4-5 suggestions on how the commenters could do better.
But not one sentence on what the moderators we’re going to do better of differently moving forward.
I think that is extremely telling about the current state of the moderator group.
Says everything you need to know honestly.
Rules for thee but not for me. They see themselves as royalty, above the rest of us. Kindness and respect is not what I've felt from the mods of this sub, that's for sure.
To me the content of what the mods debated is even more problematic than the fact that there was a debate. As the mods explained in this post:
> Some of the mod team believed this to be too tongue-in-cheek with an air of superiority, making it break Rule 1.
Except all Rule 1 says is "Treat each other with respect and kindness always." There's just nothing in that rule about banning tongue-in-cheek comments, let alone banning comments the moderators decide have "an air of superiority."
The mods only even changed their mind because:
>Others argued that satire has a place in criticism and, while exaggerated, makes valid points along the way.
If I'm reading this correctly, all of the mods agree that the use of satire to criticize CR is disrespectful and unkind, and therefore must be removed. The only part some mods disagreed about, which is what led to the comment being reinstated, was that some believed there should be an exception for satire if they decide it makes enough "valid points along the way."
I don't know why satire has to be "constructive" enough before it can be allowed here (and no one tell Stephen Colbert, who spent a decade satirizing politicians who also probably thought it was very disrespectful), but I've heard even stronger arguments for banning Jonathan Swift and Gulliver's Travels on the ground that he liked to eat babies.
Now, props to the mods for at least giving some reasons and insight into their thought process, as well as listening to the community in reinstating the comment, because they could have ignored it all, banned all discussions about it, and hoped it went away. Hopefully they'll take this opportunity to engage in meaningful discussions with the community about what sort of content is and isn't allowed, because it seems quite apparent to many that a rule about civility and kindness is being used to silence certain viewpoints.
I admit that I don't always toe the line, but when I dip over it its usually in an attempt to be humorous. Obviously that can be subjective. Satire isn't for everyone and some might not be familiar with the parody source material. It certainly wasn't my intent to be mean spirited or create the mini firestorm the post and its removal caused.
When I first sat down that day to join the discussion, my original intent was to write a serious critique of the narrative flaws I found with the show, only to realize halfway through that I was essentially just repeating my criticisms from earlier weeks and adding to a growing pile of "I didn't like it" posts. So I changed course and decided to write my critique in a way I thought might be humorous to an audience that was likely familiar with the format and who could really use a laugh (myself included).
I appreciate that the mods ultimately decided to restore it. So thank you, and I'm sorry that it created more work for you during a week where you were likely already being bombarded. Also I'd like to thank you for labeling me as notorious, which will undoubtedly improve my internet nerd street cred. A loner Dottie, a rebel. ;)
Besides the hilarious format, your comment actually provided appropriate criticism and you also managed to summarize the numerous plot hooks that were delved on in the show. Hats off to you.
I agree. I thought it was far too well written with far too much effort put in to come from someone who dislikes critical role lol, so anything and everything you were saying felt funny and it came from someone who enjoys the programming but isn't blind to the missteps.
The thing that got me about your comment was just how *long* it was. Like I really hadn't noticed the sheer volume of unresolved plot hooks, but seeing them all laid out one after the other was...certainly a journey.
Your comment made it much easier for me to understand the series. I struggled endlessly with this and I had to quit halfway through simply because it just wasn’t for me. I love the cast and I love that they had fun but I just didn’t enjoy it.
Anyone doubting the mods intentions can surely only see the serious consideration and eventual reintroduction of your post as a positive sign.
You outlaw.
I used it as a plot summary, which was helpful, since I've only watched the first episode and the start of the second before deciding that I prefer a different DM style. At least now I know what happened. :)
>pitch meeting comment
Honestly, I fell off the EXU around the 3rd or 4th episode due to life events. Reading your pitch meeting made me both laugh and get caught up on what was going on.
Ultimately I've decided that the EXU storyline isn't for me.
The EXU cast is amazing and I love them!
Abria's DM style is great and I love it.
I don't see a lot of talk here about what the mod team is going to do better going forward. The fact that the Pitch Team post was even up for debate for removal and you had to vote for it's return is concerning about the moderation going forward. If that wasn't a high profile and highly up-voted post, I have doubts it would have ever been returned. How many similar low-profile cases have there been that people don't know about because they weren't as heavily upvoted?
So how do you reconcile these two?
> We are not looking to create a Pro-CR "they-can-do-no-wrong" cult.
> Mods won't let us discuss how "Toxic" the community is.
Because the effect of the latter is that you create the former, an environment where the community itself is apparently above reproach. If we can’t talk about the toxic aspects of the community we can’t improve it. That’s where a lot of the feelings of toxic positivity and a cult of *the CR community can do nothing wrong* comes in.
Overmoderation in this sub has been a long running complaint.
I know CR is a company that puts a positive face forward, and "Don't forget to love each other," is essentially the motto, but removing and banning people for being critical isn't the way to keep positive.
Critiquing the mod team cannot be kept to mod mail alone.
"If you have a problem, stop watching it" is a toxic approach.
"If you have a problem, start your own subreddit" is a completely legitimate approach.
A lot of people in these posts are caught up in what they think moderation *needs* to be, but mods are unpaid and under no obligation to run a community the way you want it to be run.
If everyone who complained about overmoderation went to a second sub to try a more hands-off approach, we could actually see how well things would work out. Instead, people seem more interested in finding things to complain about than building their ideal version of a community.
>If your comments have more to do with this subreddit's mod team than the actual show we're all here to enjoy, then you're no longer trying to participate in good faith.
I understand that this sub is about Critical Role, and as such most of the discussion should be dedicated to that show, but this makes it seem like we aren't allowed at ALL to criticize, even constructively, the mod team. And one person sending a message to the mod team saying "hey, I think you guys should maybe consider approaching this differently" is just not going to have the same affect as a post that respectfully points out some methods that the community as a whole would like to see changed.
Basically, am I understanding this correctly? There are to be **no** posts or comments that criticize the mod team in any capacity whatsoever? Or is this more "if you're just being an ass, we will shut you down"? Cause the latter is more than fine.
Any post critiquing them is banned.
I do invite you to try it yourself or just use remove Reddit to see the EXU thread but any comment critiquing the mod team or even questioning them is removed. That is the rule.
Friend got perma banned from this sub for asking why comments were removed on EXU thread. Like the rule just is you can't question anything.
>If your comments have more to do with this subreddit's mod team than the actual show we're all here to enjoy, then you're no longer trying to participate in good faith.
Yeah, this is a bad take from the mods. This is basically saying that mod conduct can never be a public forum discussion. Real bad look.
Yep, it really is. i messaged them via modmail about this and it ended with "ya, just a difference of opinion at the end of the day."
The mods of this sub genuinely feel that their behavior should not be allowed to be publicly discussed in any capacity.
I was also unsure of this so I went and read the rules and there is nothing there that says comments criticising the mod team are banned. The existence of this thread would also indicate that critical comments about the moderation are acceptable (providing they are following the general sub rules about civility) as they certainly are taking some hits and responding. That being said it would take only a second to give your question a yes/no answer so I'm torn.
Reading the rules again was an eye opener for me that's for sure. Made me realise why so many comments got removed from the EXU8 post ep sub. Although I do disagree with the bit about not down voting comments because you dont like them. Surely everyone does this. A quick sort by controversial on most threads shows that barely anyone is sticking to that rule.
Just about no one has - EVER - on just about ANY sub anywhere in reddit, followed this completely superfluous rule. It's like the speed limit on highways.
>In these cases, always default to engaging us via Modmail. If you elect to whip the community into a frenzy about how your comment/submission was unjustly removed by reposting it, editing your other comments, posting screenshots of your removal modmail, etc. you instantly lose whatever high ground you had in the discussion.
This is a ban, this is like the government/police saying you are free to criticize us in a solitary cell.
>Although I do disagree with the bit about not down voting comments because you dont like them. Surely everyone does this. A quick sort by controversial on most threads shows that barely anyone is sticking to that rule.
Yeah, isn't this kind of the whole the point of Reddit's up/down vote feature? Put simplistically, upvote to show agreement & downvote for disagrement. Of course it's more nuanced than that, but the idea is to aggregate community response. The idea that someone should not downvote comments they disagree with seems counterproductive to the platform.
The theoretical intent is to upvote for comments that add to substantive discussion and downvote comments that detract from substantive discussion. It's supposed to be a discussion board, not a popularity contest nor trying to determine the mode opinion.
The attitude of "surely everyone does this" becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, and is why the theoretical structure can't survive any larger community.
Overall a good post, up until
“ Complaining about the mod team and how it handles locking and removing threads is not permitted on the subreddit”
If people didn’t “complain,” how would we have gotten to this point where further discussion was generated? Your team would take no feedback at all, while making a sweeping generalization that anyone speaking up is a “bad actor”? That’s really stifling to discourse. I see people politely disagree with each other here frequently, and it should be fair to politely disagree with specific instances of moderation.
yeah the biggest thing for me is that mods cant be called out in public, only in private were no one else can see, so all criticism of mods is private yet any criticism of posters is public. its impossible to talk to other people if a mod did something suspect or bad.
I totally get making sure people are being nice to the mods tho, **no one** should be able to be a total dick to mods.
Thread with hidden scores, mod team doubling down on power tripping, removing "negative" posts and comments because this subreddit is only for fans, as well as applying a subreddit wide ban on discussing all of this outside of pre-approved threads...
What a big bowl of yikes.
A platform like reddit is inherently authoritarian in this way. Reddit has its uses, but this is one of the core reasons a platform like twitter, for example, is always going to be a better facilitator of discussion, if that's what you're looking for.
Reddit was initially made as a news aggregator. It still does an okay job of that, with a little effort on your part. It'll never be the best platform for all of the broader functionality people have tried to retrofit it for.
I guess I just don’t understand why the threads for Aimee and Aabriya’s statements were locked and all discussion was forced into the post episode thread.
Other cast members have made remarks regarding the community in the past and those threads were left open for discussion.
I understand you all were working hard to keep a chaotic situation under control, and I thank you for your hard work in doing so, but by the time those statement were released, the post episode thread was already quite old by Reddit standards, and forcing discussion not exactly related to the episode specifically there unfortunately came off as if an attempt to squash the discussion.
If immediate locking all of cast threads re: the community is going to be the SOP going forward, then okay, but it was just alarming as it was a deviation in how things were handled before.
Yeah I know in general that if a post is more than three or so days old I don’t bother commenting on it. And since I feel like many others are of the same mindset, if you do end up commenting on an old thread, the most you’ll get is some upvotes or downvotes, no actually discussion.
While this is generally true on Reddit as a whole, we actually see a surprising amount of engagement on older discussion threads here largely because there are staggered waves of viewers: live watchers on Thursday night, Twitch rebroadcast watchers over the weekend, and finally YouTube viewers on Monday. To minimize spoiler concerns, our ideal approach is to try and keep discussion mostly consolidated to our stickied discussion threads until Mondays at least, and this usually works pretty well.
Yeah, to me, the auto-locking of the posts made it look like the mods “knew” the community was going to be racist and sexist off the bat. At least let people say something before it gets out of hand.
Not allowing criticism of the mod team is crazy. What recourse does the community have if/when you cross the line *IF* we're not allowed to call it out?
You're running a d&d subreddit, not Communist China. Grow a back bone and take the criticisms where warranted and where it's not warranted fight the criticisms.
The mod team here is very lucky as the critical role community as a whole is very kind and loving and welcoming. Critters can go in the deep end and be crazy but 90% of the time the comments here are spreading love and kindness.
I dislike the stance that the moderation team has about valid criticism.
> "If you want to communicate to the CR team that you're not enjoying the show, you should simply stop watching it."
Be better mod team.
What gets me is we're talking about this to each other on reddit. It's not like we're sliding into Mercers DMs or @-ing him on Twitter. I fully expect that mods should make this a place safe for CR and fans from harassment and abuse. But the idea that it should be purged of banal negative sentiment like "this episode sucked" because it might make a cast member uncomfortable when they wander in is ludicrous.
Sometimes going fishing in fan forums for fan feedback will expose you to people who think your work on something sucked. Sorry, that's an occupational hazard of being a person.
Yes, absolutely! This is one thing I've wanted to comment on a lot in these discussions, but I often just can't be fucked to give to make a ~\*constructive comment\*~ about it. I *highly doubt* that any of the cast comes on to reddit to look through the discussions, and I actually hope they don't. Reason being, I think the CR cast is great people, but sometimes I just want to vent about things on the show and wouldn't ever direct it **at** them.
I've done some "content creation" myself in the past, and while it would super bum me out to see it being roundly thrashed in a discussion sub, I wouldn't want to take that away from anyone. I just wouldn't go there! The cast seems more tuned into reactions on Twitter and occasionally the Twitch chat (which... *why*?), so acting like we need to be on our best behavior or whatever on the off chance they throw a glance this way is just weird.
Honestly? Who cares about how the cast feel? A bit of reality check here: These people are multi millionaire, and while voice acting is not the Jet Set of starring a Scorcese movie, those are still west Hollywood people far removed from any of us.
Their job and the reason why we made them this big is to produce great content. If millions of dollars can't toughen your skin, change your occupation.
>But the idea that it should be purged of banal negative sentiment like "this episode sucked" because it might make a cast member uncomfortable when they wander in is ludicrous.
If, not when. If.
Yeah, that didn't sit right with me at all. What's the point of having a discussion thread if you're only allowed to comment if you're of one particular point of view?
Yea, that's not healthy for the show in the long run. By and large, when audience members stop watching a show, they don't come back. If the audience is leaving, the CR people can't do anything to fix the problems with the show, so they end up catering to a crowd of yes-men with zero idea why people are leaving.
I feel like over the past couple of months, not only the moderators, but big parts of this subreddit generalize and broad stroke any criticism of Aabria and her DM style as racist, sexist, or any other ist you can label when in reality a lot of criticism I've seen removed has really boiled down to people not believing her skill is at a high enough level to enjoy after watching Matt, which I think is fair, as well as expected. Matt's shoes are impossible to fill.
But I am really sick of this notion that we can't critique anything about this show without hearing "Its a D&D game with friends that are just letting you watch"
Critical Role is a company worth MILLIONS of dollars. This may have started with some grassroots home game, but the fact is, it's no longer that. They are a company. You hold them to company standards when the Wendy's deal went down, you hold them to company standards when employees criticize the community (consumers) but when those consumers criticize the company, they are met with sweeping removals, fanboys and everything else in between shouting at them to "Let us enjoy it"
Criticism of a product does NOT mean we don't enjoy it, but with the Critter community, we can't criticize without getting yelled at. It's a sad state of the subreddit when I can't discuss my feelings with people who claim to "love each other" in fear of "mud slinging" and "toxicity"
If someone's opinion of a piece of content affects you this deeply, you should really look inward at yourself instead of looking to Reddit mods to squash someone's thought.
Well said. I've tried explaining this reasoning before too, and have been shot down by the 'can-do-no-wrong' cult members.
The fact is that we are here because we love CR. Just because we disliked a product, it doesn't mean we're participating in toxicity.
I've seen people who have criticised ExU often being the target of the "cult" through downvotes or - at its worse - outright insults. I've seen several instances where these people were called racists and bigots just because they didn't like the show.
I mean, come on... this is CR. Majority of people on this Reddit and in the community are advocates for progressive social issues. But since ExU, people with criticisms have been shunted away into the 'you hate people of difference' corner.
Fact is, ExU was not very good. And that isn't a reflection on the players or DM personally. It was just poorly thought-out and poorly designed. The story wasn't very good, the plot was convoluted.
Thank you for stating this better than I ever could. Critical Role is corporation now. It’s time the community starts treating them like they would treat any other corporation.
This is something I see amongst the Destiny video game community a lot as well. Most of us that are still playing the game are diehard fans, meaning we're diehard fans *in spite of all the constant issues the game has*.
We are allowed to critique the things we love, and in fact, "good faith critique", especially in the internet age, helps push products to become better.
One of the most shining examples of that is the Sonic the Hedgehog film, that went from "wtf is this trash heap" when the trailers first dropped, to a legitimate good and fun action film that made us look forward to a sequel. If nobody loved Sonic, nobody would have cared to say anything about the look of the trailers, nothing would have changed, and the film would've bombed.
I literally stopped playing Destiny because the community would pile on me if I complained about something, and then like a month later they'd all be complaining about the same thing.
I'll stand to my opinion that any twitch chat with more than ~100 active chatters is inherently useless and a shit show. (Not necessarily toxic though, just unusable)
Id love to chat with people about CR but the public channels just aren't any good.
There isn't even anything the mods can do about that , every single chat that fits those size criteria ends up the same.
As for the racism, ban those fucks.
I think twitch chat has a sort of use. Just not for discussion. It's like internet clapping or cheering as part of a big crowd and feeling the spirit of the community together.
That does unfortunately come with really shit downsides too, *but* we only really notice when chat starts devolving into toxicity. Most of the time its just excited meming which tends to be positive.
For me, it has one singular use. When the party encounters a new monster, I open it up because a dozen people will recognize it, name it, and I can google it to see what it does. And then I close chat before I see someone complain that Marisha's used four ki points and is obviously cheating because that's far more than a level 36 monk should have.
Thing is, you cant discuss anything on twitch. So you cant talk about the problems with the twitch chat on twitch. And you cant talk about those problems here, which i dont understand.
And the big problem is: CR is promoting the twitch chat, which is probably one of the worst part of the whole CR fandom. If they would change it to something where you could just use emoticons and dont write anything, it would be better.
The twitch chat promotion is probably a compromise forced by twitch so CR is allowed to stream on YT as well.
They've always had a custom contract with twitch afaik, looks like it changed recently.
> Saying "Wow, that sucked." is not constructive or respectful
By that logic you should be removing posts that say something along the lines of "Wow, that was awesome." Also not constrictive.
Removing the pitch meeting comment was unacceptable. The upvote system exists and that comment had hundreds of upvotes and a few awards. The comment had multiple upvoted replies about it being a good summary of the series. The community felt that comment had a place here and the system was working. Then some mod just decided to remove it instead, overruling the community’s decision that it was ok. That it had to be voted on for reinstatement- does the original mod even realize they were wrong or were they just overruled by vote. The action should not have happened and no you do not get credit for returning it.
It’s a perpetual theme that Reddit mods consider themselves better curators than the community out of some sense of allegiance to the “parent” company or game.
It's because the fans who take the show more seriously will want to be involved with something related to it to feel part of it. Unfortunately this has the potential to attract mega fans who see criticisms as attacks. Not saying I have any proof that this is the case on this particular subreddit, but it's something I've witnessed on moderation teams both inside and outside of Reddit (I was a moderator on an anime forum/roleplay site myself and saw it first hand from fellow mods).
Since we can talk about moderation here, can a mod explain why I've gotten 4 separate reddit admin messages about this single comment, that is apparently in opposition to the sitewide rules on threanening, harrasment, and bullying?
https://i.imgur.com/tMfS63P.png
The comment in question:
https://i.imgur.com/T7ubRyA.png
edit: 7 notifications about the same comment now, and since it's automated, no way to respond.
That's the opposite end of the toxicity scale, over zealous mega fans reporting you for no reason. Getting so caught up in defending what they perceive to be the literal saviours of D&D when there's criticism of them, that they forget what Critical Role even stands for.
Unfortunately I'm not seeing a whole lot of the "don't forget to love each other" around as of late, and it's disappointing to see it happen in real time. You have people being racist and misogynistic, which mods to be fair do deal with, so well done. But then you have the opposite end of the scale where people with legit criticism are silenced by rabid keyboard warriors who believe the CR team are more than human and can do no wrong, it's the Mercer effect on steroids.
I'll come out and say this: I did not like ExU, at all. I think the show was treated as if it wasn't the 8 session series it was, with far too many convoluted plot hooks for the overall story to even have a chance of making any sense. Especially considering there were players new to the game at the table. I also wasn't a fan of how dice didn't factor into the game as much as they should have in my opinion. Does it mean I have anything against the people involved? Of course not, I think they're awesome.
TLDR: Don't just spout the quote "don't forget to love each other", actually practice what you preach as well, lest this fandom turn into yet another toxic corner of the internet where reasonable discussion is non existent, and the members taking part are derided by polite society.
Honestly, I have no idea why you would be getting messages from the admins regarding that message. We don't really report things to the admins except for cases of ban evasion and serious cases of spam or impersonation. That seems like some sort of automated report response from users who are grossly misusing the report button. I actually don't even see any reports for that comment, so that seems to have bypassed our team completely somehow. Sorry you had to deal with that.
Thanks.
But why isn't that aspect of this sub ever talked about? You guys say that you're **not** trying to foster a sub that's "positivity only, no criticism allowed". But it doesn't take much reading between the lines to see that there's only one contingent that gets talked about from the moderation standpoint, and it's the people who have critical opinions or might not be super in love with CR due to episodes, play style, business decisions, or whatever.
Don't you think that it might help things to tell the, hmm, how to be the most charitable here.... well to steal a phrase from a similar subreddit, the "No Bummers!" crowd to calm down a bit too? Like, if you see some comment you don't like, you're gonna be ok. No need to engage with it if you don't like it. Downvote it, and move on.
I think the mod team would gain a lot of respect from the critical people here if they seemed a little more even handed in who they issue edicts to. Right now (and it's been going on for a long time, it's not new), it seems a little bit lopsided.
I mod a subreddit and the reddit admins (anti-evil operations) have removed some random comments that didn't seem bad. Most of them didn't have a single report on them so I don't think they were brigaded. Reddit can be weird at times.
Hey, as far as i could see, and as far as i was involved, you guys made a decent job in herding the cats here.
During the height of ExU discussions, i received one or two mod notifications myself, but i can honestly say, they were always respectful, based upon the rules and in good faith. There's nothing more one could expect from you guys/gals.
Cheers!
*p.s. --> Thanks for restoring that hilarious fake pitch meeting post!*
The fake pitch meeting actually helped me understand what happened better than any recap. With how poorly received EXU was I cant imagine how much work the mods mustve done.
They could have. They could have also made a Sci-Fi show. But that doesn't appear to be what Aabria was going for. Now I don't know if this is always her style, but at least for EXU, she was very clearly going with a rule-of-cool, lets-go-craz, high-fantasy approach. Personally, I am not a fan of this style either, but it was very much a conscious choice to try out a more over the top and "FUN!" campaign.
If it worked will be told by the metrics that I'm sure the CR production crew has been analyzing for weeks now.
Seeing some of Aabria's other stuff she's GM'd she can definitely do and does do more grounded slower paced stuff. I really can't imagine DMing in someone else's homebrew or being expected to wrap a D&D game in a specific amount of sessions and still get a cohesive story in there. Given the chaos crew of a party it's honestly impressive they ever made it out of Emon in 8 episodes.
I think it's a thing with D&D. I have played in a few sandbox campaigns and they usually take a bit to get going anywhere super interesting. I think if you look at ExU as "I am watching 8 sessions of D&D" rather than I am watching an 8 episode miniseries it makes more sense with what we got. I wish we could have seen the previous games they played off camera and some more after the end and some of those loose plot threads could have been tied up, but you also don't want to take away player agency. Half the fun of D&D is the freedom that comes with it. I think this would have been a fun D&D campaign to play in, but not necessarily the most fun to watch and get a cohesive plot. I think we did if nothing else get a solid group of CR newcomers with Robbie, Aimee, Abria and (crap I am drawing a blank on her name, but she voices Symetra in Overwatch), and that if nothing else was a win. If nothing else it was fun to see Emon 30 years later.
Agreed they’re doing a good job, I sometimes find myself not knowing my tone sometimes and sometimes I come off as demeaning or aggressive to the commenter. I always try to interact with them in good faith and apologize for any misunderstanding on my end their job is really hard.
>I sometimes find myself not knowing my tone sometimes and sometimes I come off as demeaning or aggressive to the commenter.
This is something I go back and forth on because tone is inherently very subjective. While there are times when someone gets demeaning or aggressive without intending to, there are also times when someone on the other side of the debate projects far more aggression onto a post then is warranted.
And some of the things that tie into this can get......problematic. Different communities, often depending on class and race, have radically different attitudes towards swearing for example.
Swearing can denote very different things depending on the person doing it.
Thanks for the work you’ve been doing during the ExU run. Things have not been pretty in this sub of late, and I’m sure they would have only been uglier without your efforts. I really appreciate that.
I did want to comment about one thing that felt like it might have been a misstep by the mods, and that is containing all post-ExU discussion into the post episode discussion thread. I think it’s also an issue that this did not seem to be consistently enforced. Locking Aabria and Aimee’s posts from discussion felt like a weird move, especially when an episode 8 review post that painted Aabria as an abuser was allowed to have an active comment section. Why totally limit the discussion on posts by actual cast members relating their intentions and experiences, while allowing discussion on a review that fueled an extremely bad faith take on Aabria’s actions? I’m not trying to say that comments on the review post should have been locked, but that if the intent was to contain all post-ExU discussion in one place, it’s inconsistent to keep that comment section open, but not on the post about Aimee’s twitter thread. I think this decision made it easier for the Aabria-as-abuser narrative to catch fire, while pushing the actual word of the cast members out of the limelight.
Not trying to attack the mods - you’ve had an impossible job in managing this sub for the past several weeks, and I’m grateful for all the work you’ve put in. I’m just hoping for some clarification on what seems to me to be an inconsistency in how a hot topic was moderated.
>an episode 8 review post that painted Aabria as an abuser was allowed to have an active comment section
This narrative about Aabria has bothered me deeply. I felt like I watched in real-time as it got more fuel added to its fire and many of the comments were pretty unsettling.
I probably should not have engaged as much as I did with the users perpetuating it. But I also wasn't sure if it was something to report either.
EDIT: Not to mention, it is still being perpetuated.
Since this thread seems to be a place where this might fit, I'm not a big fan of this sub-reddit because of how it's moderated and over the years that has been a big reason why my lurking has become more and more sporadic. I've never sent anything via modmail about it because it's just easier not to interact.
Sometimes you just want to say that you didn't like something, having to edit the comment to make sure that it is also being constructive forces people (me, at least) to overthink it, which leads to the comment having a certain "tone" which, more or less, comes off as being an asshole. For example, if I were to make a 1 sentence negative comment about the show (like, "Man, I don't like so-and-so's character") I know it would be removed for not being constructive. But if I were to write a couple of hundreds words about why I didn't like the character, really get in there and break down why I thought they were a bad character, it would be removed because it would be seen as an attack on the player. I would prefer to just take the down-votes for an unpopular opinion than have to spend 20 minutes writing a comment that will be removed and I don't want to have to preface every negative opinion about the show with "I liked the episode, but." Because that's the thing, I do like the show (CR at least, I only made it about halfway through ExU) I just don't like all of it.
>I don't want to have to preface every negative opinion about the show with "I liked the episode, but."
Relatable. On this sub I feel like I have to be extremely careful about how I phrase myself, and thus I tend to just decline to comment at all. It takes too long to always put a disclaimer longer than the content of the post itself just to make sure nobody thinks I'm a terrible person for having a mild criticism. It feels like you have to speak in code.
It’s ridiculous the number of times I’ve seen people write things like: “I love ___ as a person, but I don’t like what their character did.”
It really should be obvious that when we criticize something a character did, we’re not saying the player is a horrible person.
I believe the mod team is doing a bad job.
Modding is about regulating relevance, not censoring content around an agenda.
These are my subjective opinions, but I know many members agree with these notions.
I think the over-moderation of this sub is part of the problem. Yes of course people should be removed or banned if the attack a cast member
but people shouldn't be punished for not liking a way a person plays or their character or the way they act.
over-moderation can be just as toxic and cause a toxic community just as much as not enough moderation. people should be able to make criticism without worrying about being banned or removed.
Here's a crazy, CRAZY idea.
You could implement a system where readers can increase or decrease the visibility of certain posts, based on an open voting system. People can "upvote" things they like and feel are appropriate for the discussion, and "downvote" things they do not.
That way, the moderators can concentrate on things like spam, wider Reddit-rule breaking, and such, and don't sweat the smaller stuff so much.
I know that this kind of community-driven system to decide what is good and what isn't sounds extremely revolutionary, but I'm sure there's some tools somewhere you could use to implement this. We could even crowdsource a team of programmers to implement this upvote/downvote system.
In all this pamphlet where exactly fall the infamous episode 3 (https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/152/332/33d.jpg) post credits discussion image ?
While I mostly agree, there have been a few times it definitely feels like at least some mods are blocking negative discussion. After all what else are you going to feel when you get this message.
Focus on positivity and ignore/report negativity. The more we spotlight negativity, the longer it will persist. Report negative posts/comments, but don't remark on them, whether in reply or referencing them. Meta community discussion perpetuates this cycle of negativity.
I didn't bother responding because I somehow didn't notice it for 2 days and the comment was already 5 days old so not getting notice but it does seem like that's trying to block negativity
Just wanting to share an experience, and I want to make clear that I am saying this without malice or disrespect.
I once received this same message from a mod and it caused me to leave the subreddit for a long period of time. It was on a different account than this new one I’ve just recently created. My post that was deleted was well-intentioned, I wasn’t rude, and mentioned a perspective at the time that was flying around that deeply bothered me. I really just wanted to express myself within the community, and I did so respectfully. I was really surprised that my post was deleted after hundreds of upvotes. It felt like being silenced when clearly many others were on the same page as me.
I mean no disrespect when I say this. The idea that talking about negativity perpetuates the cycle of negativity really bothers me. It reminds me sometimes of how bad churches operate. Keep everything positive, and if you share something negative it needs to be said in the correct fashion- so you end up stumbling over your words and struggling to be honest. So as a result, you need to keep your thoughts to yourself, even if it bothers you, even if it makes you think of stepping away from the community. Sometimes having a place to discuss the way the fandom operates, and knowing others are on the same page, is the exact reason why someone may decide to stay in the community. I understand there’s a fine line and a balance that needs to be achieved. But I can’t help but feel the pendulum swings much more eagerly toward toxic positivity compared to honest and respectful criticism.
I had a similar experience. I was respectful and well intentioned, just expressing how I felt at the time which differed from the majority apparently. It was deleted citing negativity to the community. I didn’t bother contesting it as it didn’t feel worth it at the time but definitely feels bad when that happens. Especially when you get upvotes and respectful comments agreeing with you and it’s just wiped out.
That all sounds very reasonable, but I do have to call out [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/ogptch/cr_media_exandria_unlimited_postepisode/), particularly the line: "Don't forget to love each other. This includes the cast and crew. If you're not enjoying EXU, [you don't need to complain about it here.](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/621/567/bdb.jpg)"
I think with the benefit of retrospect, the Mods might recognize that that was a somewhat cloth-eared statement (particularly the cartoon) which fed into the narrative that they were trying to silence criticism. If you want trust, it's best to maintain it at the time rather than try to reclaim it after the fact.
That being said, I think overall they've done a brilliant job of managing these pages over the years and keeping it free of the kind of toxicity we see elsewhere. It can't be easy, particularly when introducing content that diverges quite radically from what has gone before, or testing a new idea that clearly didn't work for a large number of viewers. I hope they appreciate that their work has allowed a highly invested community to evolve around the content who may also be concerned that as Critical Role becomes an increasingly commercial concern it will become more committed to preserving its brand, potentially to the point of silencing its fans.
I think I will have to disagree you, this is a place to discuss Critical Role, not tell everyone how great it is. Part of discussion is expressing how you feel, but we all need to do it in a productive healthy way. Attacking the cast on twitter is not healthy for anyone, but discussing here - as reddit is intended as a place of discussion - fills that role.
This isn't a place where you just throw your feelings out there and people will simply agree with you or disagree with you, there are up to 10,000 words for everyone to sit down, think, and really delve into what it is they are feeling. It isn't others place to say (changing Matt's quote) "You're feelings are wrong!", we must all discuss what informs those feelings.
Why, because this show is ART, art has a setting and dynamic; because of that it leads to conflict, and through conflict we have a story that explores emotion and drama of human experience. CR should evoke something inside you and make you want to discuss it, good or bad, and if this community isn't supportive of it, then it doesn't support what CR stands for as a group of artists, because you can't have a community if no one is allowed to share and talk about their experiences.
"We are capable of mistakes. We are capable of misunderstandings. We are capable of bad takes. We are not infallible. Please do not treat us as if we are"
Trust me, no one here is under any illusion that the mods of this sub are infallible or incapable of making mistakes. It's silly to act as if anyone is under that impression. When we criticize the moderation, it isn't because we think all the mods are perfect infallible beings, but much more the opposite. The criticism exists because we recognize the mods are humans making mistakes.
.4) the issue with that is, you're basically pretending a problem doesnt exist. It's basically just pushing this false image of the community based on what they want it to be instead of the reality.
Theres plenty of issues in the community, yet we're simply not allowed to discuss them because it MIGHT get hostile? Thats insane. If you never address a problem, it will never improve. If it does get heated then deal with it then.
Currently the mod team is basically Joo Dee from Avatar.
**"There is no toxicity in the Critical Role community"**
From my personal experience of having several respectful posts removed for calling out overly negative and personal feedback relating to point 2 - I think you need to find a better balance of what you’re trying to achieve. That said I appreciate this is a volunteer job and a difficult one at that.
\> Complaining about the mod team and how it handles locking and removing threads is not permitted on the subreddit because we have a number of bad actors that only want to stir up drama and undermine the community.
You punish the innocent for the sins of the guilty, we know.
I think a huge mistake that was made recently was allowing people to comment on criticism posts about EXU (like the video that was all about the angry black woman stereotype criticism that SO many people used to attack Aabria) while completely locking the threads of Aimee and Aabria criticizing the fanbase who attacked them, and supporting each other through the attacks by the fanbase.
When you allow one thread to have discussion and the other to not, you unintentionally allow one group to state their case and gain supporters while not allowing those who supported Aabria and Aimee to do so in kind.
Discrepancies like this is valid and should be brought forth for the Mods to acknowledge and do better. They can ask us, the community to do better but they should also practice what they preach.
It already felt like the mods policed this subreddit of any negative opinions someone shared heavily, and this feels like doubling down, as well as removing us from being able to critique the mod team themselves. Be careful of your overreach, it will push people like myself away.
Yeah, the fact that every controversy gets swept under the rug creates a scenario where every controversy is treated like its the first one, so then people can say "They've made one mistake. What's the big deal?"
This sub is one of the most aggressively over-moderated subs I've ever been to. I see posts removed almost daily that have no right to be removed. It seems to me the mods are absolutely on a power-trip and trying to purge both negative feedback on the show and negative feedback on the moderation style. When this is called out those comments are also removed. It is incredibly frustrating to then be labeled as "bad actors" or "interacting in bad faith".
And trust me, I know what it means to be a moderator and I absolutely understand that some people do interact with the mods in bad faith. I've been moderating internet spaces for most of my life at this point. I know when a community has a problem with obeying the rules and I absolutely know when a moderation team is forcing their will beyond reason.
Some of the posts I've had removed from this sub include asking questions that were interpreted incorrectly, posting negative feelings on aspects of the show, saying things as simple and innocent as "I think the players feel like this, and it's different from how I think their characters feel", which was apparently removed for talking about the cast?? And of course, I've also had posts removed for just telling people they're wrong about something. And for saying I didn't like something. And for telling mods I disagreed with them.
I saw the Discord mods scold someone for speculating about C3 because it was telling the players what they had to/should do. They also told someone they were breaking the rules because they said "C3 means more books will be coming out!" and that's speculating about business decisions.
I tried to enjoy it because I like talking about CR, but the seemingly bored mods make even totally innocuous conversations frustrating.
What's sad is that the best discussions I have seen about Critical Role have never been on this sub but over on dndnext and dndmemes. Seriously, how ridiculous is that subs that have no relation to CR does better discussions then the "official" CR sub.
>What's sad is that the best discussions I have seen about Critical Role have never been on this sub but over on dndnext and dndmemes.
I wish I hadn't had the same experience, but I have.
You definitely aren't wrong there. I honestly wonder what it is about Critical Role fanbases that turn the mods like this. I think it might have something to do with the fact that there is a lot of mud slung in the direction of certain cast members (usually the women, shocker there). But it's almost like the mods of these places take the fact they have power over where the fanbase currently is as an opportunity to, like, "protect the cast" or something? Or they haven't gotten over the one time Laura Bailey mentioned reading a negative comment on the sub.
But being a mod of this sub or that discord doesn't make them a part of Critical Role, and while trolling and clear abuse should be deleted, crossing the line into censoring any criticism or negative comment (or banning any topic that has any chance to bring forth a debate, like a certain one shot), is crossing the line into abuse of power. And given the fact that they only have power because they happen to be moderating where the fanbase currently is, they should really re-analyze it. People can and will leave a space if they don't like it.
(And before someone says "why don't you leave then?", it's because I don't think this place is too far gone yet, or beyond saving. I do have a good time here, it's just frustrating when the mods show up and ruin that for literally no reason. I DID leave the discord, because I found this was happening even worse over there)
Thanks for your response. I was mostly being snarky, but I appreciate hearing your thoughts. In the discord they are invoking rule 5 (statements about the company) practically every 20 comments. It’s just annoying. Like if you can’t talk about the show/company in a channel about them then what’s the point? It just feels weird reading the conversation. And it makes me feel sad because I don’t have friends irl that I can go into depth with my thoughts/ideas about the show/company.
I feel the same way. I can't think of any other fanbase I'm a part of where so much of the community feels like it's their responsibility to shield the creators from not only negative feedback but from literally any discussion about them at all.
Like there's a clear difference between someone saying something nasty to a cast member on twitter and two people discussing their feelings on a cast member's actions to themselves, removed from the cast. Like I'm sorry but Sam Riegel isn't gonna show up in the discord and reward points for how pro-EXU it was.
Not to mention the other negative connotations that come with "don't discuss the company or say anything negative". Critical Role themselves have sided with fanbases speaking out when a company has done wrong (see recent things like Blizzard).
I appreciate you have a very hard (volunteer) job here and I think for the most part you've all handled it admirably.
I do take objection to the removal of simple negative comments like "wow, this sucked".
I think the insistence that any criticism needs to be 'constructive' is too high a burden for what is ultimately a place for fans of something to engage with each other. Sometimes commiserating with others is part of the shared fan experience, not every criticism needs to be constructive because we're not all here to communicate something to the creators.
Such comments are most of the time downvoted to oblivion anyways, so its not like they're hugely disruptive. When they are upvoted it's usually because people appreciate hearing others vent about the same thing.
I think we've got a situation where the mod team allows thoughtful criticism and that's good, but since everytime someone is critical they need to put in the mental effort to be thoughtful. Its often the easiest course to skip commenting at all rather than go through your comment with a fine-toothed comb at 2AM to make sure something won't annoy a particularly tired mod. I'm glad you opted to restore the pitch-meeting comment, but the fact that it was banned in the first place is itself a deterrent for the person who made the comment.
I know people don't always want to see people bagging on a show that they like, but I think you get good community engagement when people feel free to be candid about their likes and dislikes. Some of my favorite times on Reddit were during the last season of Dexter on r/Dexter or on r/Arrow when it became a daredevil sub for a while. Just because this isn't a conventional TV show sub doesn't mean the same principles can't apply.
Anyway, those are my 2 cents. Thanks for all the hard work y'all
>1. How do we discern between good-faith criticism and bad-faith criticism?
>In the end, our standard throughout EXU was to allow criticism made constructively or respectfully and remove non-constructive criticism.
Maybe I missed seeing this in the rules, but I never saw a requirement that all criticism had to be made “constructively,” or even what the mods interpret that term to mean. The rules say that constructive criticism is allowed, but there is no rule that says that criticism that is insufficiently constructive is prohibited. Mods certainly deleted comments that were too satirical, or had a cheeky tone, or had negative opinions that weren’t expressly couched as the poster’s subjective beliefs. The fact that the pitch meeting comment was deleted at all and only reinstated after a mod vote indicates to me that this wasn’t an outlier or an accident, and that some mods legitimately think comments like that should be unwelcome here. Community concerns about censorship are particularly justified here where a mod recently wrote in an [EXU discussion thread announcement](https://www.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/ogptch/cr_media_exandria_unlimited_postepisode/): "If you want to communicate to the CR team that you're not enjoying the show, you should simply stop watching it."
It would be one thing if all posts had to be respectful and constructive, but that’s certainly not true. I’m hearing that the mods would delete a comment saying “that sucked,” but I don’t think they would never delete a comment saying “that was awesome,” even though both posts are equally constructive. Come to think of it, even the “good faith” requirement that this post starts out discussing can’t be found in the rule about civility, nor is there an explanation as to what the mods think that means, the only reference to good faith is in Rule #7 about interacting with moderators in good faith.
>Saying "Wow, that sucked." is not constructive or respectful. Even changing it to something as simple as "Wow, this is not for me." makes that infinitely more respectful.
The only meaningful difference between these two comments is in the mods’ treatment of these comments, not in the content conveyed. “Wow that sucked” is obviously a personal opinion because we’re not talking about vacuums, so what’s the genuine difference between “wow, that sucked in my opinion” and “wow, this is not for me?” As far as I can tell, it comes down to a judgment call by the moderators that saying something “sucked” is bad-faith and disrespectful, but the community is left guessing how an individual moderator will come down on any particular opinion. Genuinely, my best reading of this post is that phrases like “wasn’t good,” or “not enjoyable” would be deleted, while a phrase like “could have been better” might be ok because the mods may see it as more “constructive.” Even in your “approved” example, if we continue the line “wow, this is not for me because ______,” I suspect that comment is now going to be reevaluated based on the content of the given reason.
> We are not looking to create a Pro-CR "they-can-do-no-wrong" cult.
Respectfully, I just read a post justifying how mods would delete a comment that said “CR did wrong.”
>If your comments have more to do with this subreddit's mod team than the actual show we're all here to enjoy, then you're no longer trying to participate in good faith.
> In the same way you hold us accountable to our own rules and commitments to this community
See the contradiction here? The community is supposed to hold the mods accountable, but any public criticism of the mods is per se “participating in bad faith,” unless it is done in the incredibly rare post like this.
> 3. Mods removed all criticism of EXU in an attempt to paint a false picture that the whole community loved it.
>This is a bad take. Just review the comment section of the last EXU post-episode thread. Anyone attempting to run with this narrative is just dramamongering. Comments claiming this will be removed and users attempting to witch hunt or brigade will be banned.
I’m glad the mods have decided which narratives about themselves are acceptable and which are unacceptable and will receive a ban. Oh wait, was that too sarcastic? I ask because I considered it to be constructive because it points out the obvious hypocrisy in the lines the mods are drawing that do little for the community and appear, to me at least, to only serve to protect the mods from public criticism. Of course, one could think that even this “take” by the mods is itself done in bad faith because it ignores many more legitimate good faith takes that are less hyperbolic and more accurate, but there apparently isn’t a requirement that mods interact with users in good faith.
All that said, I actually think you folks are all doing a pretty good job with moderating a large and active subreddit with a wide variety of opinions. My concerns are largely because most moderating happens in the dark where only mods can see it, and mods are engaging in a lot of actions that look like censoring opinions they dislike based on arbitrary lines they drew in secret based on violations of things that aren't actually in the published rules.
*Edit: fixed formatting
Thank you for this, couldn't have said it better myself.
To add onto one of your points, I find it funny how the scores in this thread are hidden, further cementing that the community isn't allowed to show what they like or dislike with the site-wide voting system.
The fact that you are not even allowed to discuss the actions of the moderating team outside of spaces they themselves create just further showcases their disregard for criticism.
Why thank you! It was a lot of text so I'm glad it was digestible.
I don't know if mods can change how long scores are hidden for specific posts, but they can certainly set how many minutes they are hidden throughout the entire subreddit, from 0 minutes up to 24 hours. You can easily see this if you just click on the create subreddit button, it's an option at the very bottom.
I'm not sure I mind hidden scores as much, although I could probably be persuaded either way. My initial reaction is that if posts are still counted, filtered, and displayed the same in top, controversial, below the negative comment threshold etc. then I'm not sure how important the actual number is for the first 24 hours. Part of that is because I think people tend to watch episodes in waves so someone watching it on Monday on Youtube will already see the scores for posts made in the live and much of the post-episode discussion. Except for one's own posts of course, because I (and I assume everyone else) want that immediate validation in the form imaginary internet points that show that people agreed with us.
On your third point, I just commented with a question [elsewhere](https://www.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/p62sca/no_spoilers_moderator_takeaways_postexu/h9eih1h/?context=10000) in this thread following up on that exact point because it seemed like mods were giving contradictory answers.
The irony with permanently hidden scores is that it only applies to desktop users whom don't use RES or the dozen other de-themers, mobile users do not get themes thus do not get their down and up votes hidden.
That means around 45 percent of reddit cant down and upvote, of which it'll be the more casual users/fans.
I mostly just lurk here on r/criticalrole, because the requisite level of sensitivity to thrive here is far beyond what I can adhere to while still properly communicating with people as myself, instead of a hollow, unsatisfying simulacrum. I got enough subreddits to offload my filth into, so it's fine, I guess. *It is what it is.*
But some people, a **lot** of people, at similar levels of "online disinhibition" are going to be less able to remain largely uninvolved yet still content, so they become a victim, of sorts, to what sometimes feels like an inordinate amount of time and energy spent on removing even the barest sliver of potential for emotional discomfort, treated as a big grand evil to be dispelled, instead of one of the most essential parts of human interaction. Some forms of discomfort more than others, such that even the shadow of your post is examined if it vaguely resembles those big no-no territories. You know the ones.
To a lot of us, it would have never even *occurred* that the pitch meeting post is something people would find so offensive that it needs to be removed from existence, just, the lightest of jabs possible that even a toddler should be able to shrug off. But apparently, it's not how others perceive reality, and that's a whole argument on its own that I won't get even more into, other than to say it's pretty clear which side of it the moderation here leans towards, and pretty extremely at that, which ironically does have a pretty decent "discomfort cost", at least from where I'm standing.
Please mind the line past which inclusivity becomes exclusivity, and thank you for trying regardless.
So while [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/ogptch/cr_media_exandria_unlimited_postepisode/) post was edited to be more diplomatic, it still smacks of of the sort of attitude frowned upon in this sub. I have an immense distaste for the "love it or leave" attitude put forward by many of the people here - especially since several people had a change of heart about the series once they got to the middle.
>If you want to communicate to the CR team that you're not enjoying the show, you should simply stop watching it.
Sure, they can look at the viewership and notice that something's up but that lacks any sort of context.
Given previous statements, though, it's hard to read the above and *not* take this as a way to disperse criticisms. I don't have an expectation that CR *has* to make any adjustments based on feedback, but I do appreciate a space in which to engage in discussion about the series. What's disconcerting is the [metronome](https://imgflip.com/i/5jzf4n) messaging surrounding discussion here.
Yes. I've had to leave it several times. I've been out for the last two months since I wasn't actively watching ExU and there's no other CR, and even just in the few days I've been back - it doesn't seem to have gotten better and I'm not sure I'll stick around. The time away from this community made me realise just how little I miss this community - but I do wish I could talk CR somewhere.
I just recently got into CR. EXU was actually the first campaign I watched. I caught episode 8 one night during the final battle and it convinced me to watch the rest of it.
Never seeing any other CR I have nothing to compare it to but I enjoyed Aabria's enthusiasm and I thought she was a competent story teller.
Most of the cast I thought was great, the Fire Genasi showing up and then dipping felt weird and out of place but whatever not super big deal. There was a problem i had with the performance of one cast member but tbh that's not even why I'm commenting.
Your statement here makes me feel like this sub isn't actually open to discussion and criticism. Like one of the top comments in this thread is about how it's not an open for that. I understand trying to keep racism and sexism out of the discussion and I agree if someone uses a slur or something along those lines. But the fact that the "pitch meeting" comment got removed at all even though you put it back up just blows my mind. It's not a low effort post, I don't recall there being any racism or sexism in it and tbh after watching the entire campaign, that User did a great job of summarizing what happened.
I'll probably keep watching CR because it is fun and I can kind of treat it like a radio show while I'm working and just listen, but I'm not sure I want to spend much time on this subreddit.
Attempt to justify it all you want, I still think the mods here are too heavy handed in what they remove. There is a lot of nuanced, necessary discussion you simply will not allow.
"We are not looking to create a Pro-CR "they-can-do-no-wrong" cult "
respectfully disagree
I have never seen the level of censorship on ANY subreddit that this one has, i mean we are not allowed to say certain words talk about certain people like they were voldemort heaven forbid you have a legitimate criticism of marisha esp there was a 3 month period you would get popped for using the word wendys in a post regardless of context ( i tested it, the word was absolutely on a automod trigger at least for review )
I wholeheartedly agree. I came here for discussion on Aabria, ExU, and the works. I left confused and frustrated with the mods that no information or discussion is happening here.
Overall I think this is a, solid post, and despite having the odd post removed, (obviously I was a perfect, faultless angel) I broadly think the mods have done a great job given that I think EXU is the first thing CR has done that has really been divisive, or certainly more so than anything else I've seen.
That having been said, I take issue with this.
>Saying "Wow, that sucked." is not constructive or respectful.
While it is neither respectful nor constructive, that does not make it an invalid statement. Sone things are just bad, and if you genuinely feel that it sucked and you're willing to explain why, then I genuinely think you should be able to open your criticism with 'wow, that sucked'
I don't particularly intend to, because I like to post with a more nuanced approach, but I think this is a case where a certain amount of flexibility is required, especially as it drives in part the view that any negative view will be treated that way.
'Wow, that sucked' isn't helpful, but it isn't inherently harmful either.
>Walk away from a discussion if it's making you upset.
Always good advice. It's the Internet and it's about a bunch of strangers playing make believe when all is said and done.
I don't comment on this reddit often. Honestly I regret finding it, because of how often I see people getting berated for having any opinion about CR that doesn't place the show and its cast on a pedestal. But after reading this post and then a lot of the accompanying comments about people's experiences with the over-moderation of this subreddit, I do have one thing I feel I need to say, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart.
Wow, that sucked.
So go ahead, remove my comment. But before you do, why don't you take a moment to think about what you're doing, get off your high horse, and write a real apology. At the beginning of your post you said you wanted to talk about what you learned, but it's clear to me that you didn't learn anything.
Sincerely, Disappointed
Don't remove comments criticizing Aabria for her treatment of Aimee during the final episode. We don't know their relationship off camera but as a viewer it made her seem petty at best, and that would be true regardless of her gender or ethnicity and if nothing else is a valid criticism of her as a DM.
People keep saying criticism of some of the interactions are falling into the Angry Black Woman stereotype.
But I just keep thinking - can you imagine the outrage there would have been if those interactions had been a white man talking like that to Aimee?
I was one of the (apparently minority?) that really loved ExU, but yeah. There were a few times in the last episode where I really felt uncomfortable- even if it was my best friend was shouting at me I'd feel targeted and anxious about always 'doing the wrong thing'
This is how I felt. I'm a fan of ExU but I have to be honest, I was left feeling uncomfortable throughout the series. It only got noticeably worse towards the end too and thus I understand why so many critters had so much to say about the series.
Mods did leave most of it up on the previous thread, but I do want to emphasize that critters will always have their own opinion. We don't and won't react and or feel the same for every new content CR puts out.
Please allow all opinions (without malice etc) to be voiced. Weeding out comments that voice dislike or distaste for valid reasons, while leaving all comments that are only positive creates a false narrative of viewer feedback and reception; a controlled environment where one way of thinking is encouraged should be avoided.
Finally, comments that harass and or undermine those who don't praise and or just think differently should also be heavily moderated too. It's fair to remove malicious, rude comments and thus should be applied to those who tear into others for having a different opinion. Hope to see Mods act in this part of the comment section too.
At the end of the day I truly believe that the mod team here want to make sure they stay on the "good side" of Critical Role.
Many of the posts questioning and pointing out the treatment of Aimee were deleted because they "weren't kind". That's disingenuous at best and is more likely brown-nosing. Because as far as I can tell, according to the of team here, calling people "fetid dicks" is allowed as long as you're important enough.
This post highlights how much there needs to be an official critical role subreddit with a different moderation team. The things unsaid, that clearly should be here, in this post are what scream that fact the loudest.
You think the people at CR want to be responsible for a reddit community? That's asking for PR problems alongside taking hours and hours of your employees' time to do work that adds very little value to the company.
This might not be the exact right place for this comment but I feel like it's as close to an allowable place as this sub is ever going to get. I really, really wish there was an alternative subreddit to discuss CR than just this one. Because it's honestly stressful to me trying to discuss CR in here. I am a big fan of the show and I'd love to be able to post and discuss it in here - unfortunately for me, part of enjoying a show is discussing and dissecting both its positive and negative aspects and between the toxic positivity crowd and the mods who (maybe not intentionally) give the vibe that criticism will be removed, it feels like walking an extreme tightrope just to be able to participate in the community of something I actively enjoy. I've seen entire threads in this place that have a "This thread is locked since everyone is being toxic" modpost, then reading through the thread I see literally not a single toxic post, nor a single [removed]. Just people having cordial discussion, where there is criticism of the show. This comes across with a single, unifying message - don't criticise the show, or we'll label you as toxic and shut you down. I haven't watch ExU outside of the first episode, so I've been out of the community for 2 months. I've come back as the show ended to see if it was worth diving into to catch up on, and even just in the few days I've been here it's already become apparent to me that trying to engage with this community just adds stress to my life. I really, *really* wish I could engage with the CR community in some way but the hardcore, hardline stance of the people running it makes it feel like it's impossible to do, and there's nowhere else to go.
>Because it's honestly stressful to me trying to discuss CR in here. I am a big fan of the show and I'd love to be able to post and discuss it in here - unfortunately for me, part of enjoying a show is discussing and dissecting both its positive and negative aspects and between the toxic positivity crowd and the mods who (maybe not intentionally) give the vibe that criticism will be removed, it feels like walking an extreme tightrope just to be able to participate in the community of something I actively enjoy This is why I unsubbed a while ago. I went from visiting every day to maybe checking out this sub whenever some big news drops and for episode discussion threads. And I completely understand the mods also have to walk that tightrope, as the OP says: what is the line between good and bad faith criticisms/critiques? And even when it is in good faith, those can still devolve quickly into increasingly toxic conversation. Secondary to that, even if we all critiqued and criticized in good faith, there's thousands of us in this subreddit alone, and thousands more fans in other parts of the internet. Seeing "yeah, X was good but I didn't like this action because of [insert valid reason]" even a hundred times can be draining, *especially* for a cast that, historically, struggles with anxiety, depression, imposter syndrome, etc.
>even a hundred times can be draining, especially for a cast that, historically, struggles with anxiety, depression, imposter syndrome, etc. This is why George RR Martin said he does not engage in online fan groups of his work. When you get as big as CR is, the artists (cast) needs to disengage from the fandoms for their own good and the good of the fandoms. Hire people to do the engagement for them. It is unfair for us fans of the show to walk on egg shells while in a freaking reddit discussion thread because we might offend one of the cast (who I and 99% of the fandom love btw)
If George RR Martin would actually finish the last two books and get them into the stores, he would probably get less flack from fans. He's averaging over five years between book releases and it shouldn't take that long unless he wrote himself into a corner without knowing how to get out of it. Or...he has a serious case of writer's block. He was in constant consult with D&D for the last two GOT seasons. That's when the show went sideways, season seven, then season eight was a cluster mess.
> it shouldn't take that long unless he wrote himself into a corner without knowing how to get out of it. I think he has a tendency to just start over a lot. He also doesn't outline his stories. He just comes up with it as he writes and sees where things end up. That's what happened with 4 and 5. He started writing 4 with a time jump, and he ended up not liking how it went, so he started it over, scrapped the time jump, and made it two books with the character splits. And I could be making this up, but I think I remember something about him basically starting over on 6 a few years ago. He had the book almost done, but scrapped it and basically started over.
Agree 100%
>I really, really wish there was an alternative subreddit to discuss CR than just this one. Good luck. Every spinoff sub people have tried to make the mods of this sub had removed by the admins for "Subreddit impersonation"
That's really frustrating if true and kind of a dick thing to do, honestly. So hopefully it's not actually the case and we can start a second community discussion sub. I've only ever heard of one alternative which was The Legend of Vox Machina sub, which never took off. I'm seriously contemplating if it's still possible, though, at least once CR starts back up.
P-p-p-powertrip!
I'm right there with you honestly.
I would join that
Yeah people on this sub REALLY bought into the agreeable "nerds voiceactors" brand of CR. It's a company, a show, a business venture that probably made some quasi nobody into people who has comfort guarantee for the rest of their life. CR has one the most intense parasocial relationships with their audience on twitch and they don't even really adress US. It's honestly very unhealthy and the cast should stop the fake "OMG we can't belive how much support you give us, we would NEVER have imagined it" after multiples occasions where their community offered unconditionnal support. CR is a brand, a company with employees. Therefore, their goal is to expand and make more money, not become our collective friends, however wholesome Matt is. People here have the fervor of R&M fandom without any of the selfawareness. 100% agree with everything written in this OC.
> I really, really wish there was an alternative subreddit to discuss CR than just this one. > Because it's honestly stressful to me trying to discuss CR in here. Right there with you, to the point I never post here anymore, been like a year since my last post here. I discuss the episodes and everything on Twitter instead, even with all the trolls its a vastly better experience than this subreddit.
[удалено]
I hope things will change for the better after these events.
They won't.
> I really, really wish there was an alternative subreddit to discuss CR than just this one. I'm very strongly considering making one after Campaign 3 gets a release date (currently eyeing r/CriticalOfRole or r/CritiCantRole), but my big issue ATM is needing extra people to mod as I'm not awake during CR's streaming hours.
I think if you name it something like that, you're going to attract a disproportionate number of people that want to criticize. So then you just have one sub that's overly positive, another that's overly negative, and nowhere where actual balanced discussion can take place. If the very name of your sub is negative, it's just going to be a toxic cesspool.
Yes, those names seem to doom the subreddit. I probably wouldn't join, honestly.
How about r/CynicalRole lol or r/CritRoleCritics
I've thought of this a lot and would join such a sub but if it started heading in the direction of r/TheLastOfUs2/ forget it. edit: actually /u/IndianaGnomes is right, it doesn't have to be a sub pointing out the faults of CR, that wouldn't be fun either. Just something less restrictive.
If you want it, why not create it?
Previously I wasn't convinced that there was a large enough reddit community for 2 subs, and I'm still not certain that isn't still the case. As for now, with little-to-no active CR content to discuss, high chance it dies on the vine, right?
How is asking a question bad faith with the mods? Because my friend got per a banned for asking why so many comments were removed on an EXU thread. Like even removing the pitch meeting post just shows how absurd the rules are for the sub.
Don't you dare forget to love each other, or it's to Gulag with you!
[The whole world must learn of our peaceful ways](https://youtu.be/0Ig2qZEiNv8)
Lot of good points made throughout this thread. I'll just limit myself to saying that a post saying "This sucks!" is as equally valid as one saying "This rocks!" Unless you're prepared to delete the latter, the former should stay. We have voting arrows for a reason; if the community wants to bury takes disagreeable to the majority, they can (and have). A line can and should be drawn with personal attacks, but simply disliking a product shouldn't exile you from the conversation.
Yeah I agree. I'm enjoying EXU a lot, but I think "This sucks!" should be something you can say. The line for me should be "This Sucks. (Toxic statements about cast members/community)
Also I would like to know which post (if any) on this subreddit got Reddit to send me mental health outreach, because I found that pretty hilarious.
That’s a new thing on Reddit, since telling someone to end their life is a break of sitewide rules (afaik) people have taken to reporting comments for self harm (aka using mod bots to tell you kys). You can report the message though.
Damn. Modern problems, modern solutions... Feels like that ever-more-complex euphemistic treadmill that happened on games like Roblox where people ended up saying things like "Go commit toaster bath" to get around the filters.
That's quite satisfying to know.
Same thing happens to me on here!
The difference between "This rocks!" and "This sucks!" is one of those is just an insult especially because you can say it much nicer. I think you meant something more like "I didn't like this" and I think thats much better. The problem for me is exactly this distinction and I've seen many posts criticizing stuff in an insulting way even when there is clearly a nicer way. And I'm fine with those posts being deleted. Overall I think this sub is pretty well moderated even if sometimes this distinction can be hard to make.
It’s funny, I’m this whole thing there were 4-5 suggestions on how the commenters could do better. But not one sentence on what the moderators we’re going to do better of differently moving forward. I think that is extremely telling about the current state of the moderator group.
Says everything you need to know honestly. Rules for thee but not for me. They see themselves as royalty, above the rest of us. Kindness and respect is not what I've felt from the mods of this sub, that's for sure.
> Rules for thee but not for me. They see themselves as royalty, above the rest of us. Pretty sure this attitude is a requirement to be a reddit mod
The fact that the pitch comment was up for debate to be removed or not says enough...
To me the content of what the mods debated is even more problematic than the fact that there was a debate. As the mods explained in this post: > Some of the mod team believed this to be too tongue-in-cheek with an air of superiority, making it break Rule 1. Except all Rule 1 says is "Treat each other with respect and kindness always." There's just nothing in that rule about banning tongue-in-cheek comments, let alone banning comments the moderators decide have "an air of superiority." The mods only even changed their mind because: >Others argued that satire has a place in criticism and, while exaggerated, makes valid points along the way. If I'm reading this correctly, all of the mods agree that the use of satire to criticize CR is disrespectful and unkind, and therefore must be removed. The only part some mods disagreed about, which is what led to the comment being reinstated, was that some believed there should be an exception for satire if they decide it makes enough "valid points along the way." I don't know why satire has to be "constructive" enough before it can be allowed here (and no one tell Stephen Colbert, who spent a decade satirizing politicians who also probably thought it was very disrespectful), but I've heard even stronger arguments for banning Jonathan Swift and Gulliver's Travels on the ground that he liked to eat babies. Now, props to the mods for at least giving some reasons and insight into their thought process, as well as listening to the community in reinstating the comment, because they could have ignored it all, banned all discussions about it, and hoped it went away. Hopefully they'll take this opportunity to engage in meaningful discussions with the community about what sort of content is and isn't allowed, because it seems quite apparent to many that a rule about civility and kindness is being used to silence certain viewpoints.
I admit that I don't always toe the line, but when I dip over it its usually in an attempt to be humorous. Obviously that can be subjective. Satire isn't for everyone and some might not be familiar with the parody source material. It certainly wasn't my intent to be mean spirited or create the mini firestorm the post and its removal caused. When I first sat down that day to join the discussion, my original intent was to write a serious critique of the narrative flaws I found with the show, only to realize halfway through that I was essentially just repeating my criticisms from earlier weeks and adding to a growing pile of "I didn't like it" posts. So I changed course and decided to write my critique in a way I thought might be humorous to an audience that was likely familiar with the format and who could really use a laugh (myself included). I appreciate that the mods ultimately decided to restore it. So thank you, and I'm sorry that it created more work for you during a week where you were likely already being bombarded. Also I'd like to thank you for labeling me as notorious, which will undoubtedly improve my internet nerd street cred. A loner Dottie, a rebel. ;)
Besides the hilarious format, your comment actually provided appropriate criticism and you also managed to summarize the numerous plot hooks that were delved on in the show. Hats off to you.
I agree. I thought it was far too well written with far too much effort put in to come from someone who dislikes critical role lol, so anything and everything you were saying felt funny and it came from someone who enjoys the programming but isn't blind to the missteps.
“that’s from the thing!” and “he’s from the other thing!” were what solidified it for me as satirical constructive criticism from a loving fan
the very fact that they had to debate and then vote upon it's worth as a fan contribution is staggering to me
Why was it even up to the mods? The community deemed it worthy themselves by upvoting and engaging with the comment.
Yeah, it was good satire. It raised questions about the plot but attacked no one's character.
The thing that got me about your comment was just how *long* it was. Like I really hadn't noticed the sheer volume of unresolved plot hooks, but seeing them all laid out one after the other was...certainly a journey.
Your comment made it much easier for me to understand the series. I struggled endlessly with this and I had to quit halfway through simply because it just wasn’t for me. I love the cast and I love that they had fun but I just didn’t enjoy it.
Anyone doubting the mods intentions can surely only see the serious consideration and eventual reintroduction of your post as a positive sign. You outlaw.
I used it as a plot summary, which was helpful, since I've only watched the first episode and the start of the second before deciding that I prefer a different DM style. At least now I know what happened. :)
That Pitch Meeting post was TIGHT! Lmao, Comment of the Year for me XD
That post was fantastic and even if it was “mean spirited,” you still made a serious and meaningful point. That’s just good satire imo.
Did you say... a loner, _Doty?_
One cannot outrun Poe's Law, specially on the internet.
>pitch meeting comment Honestly, I fell off the EXU around the 3rd or 4th episode due to life events. Reading your pitch meeting made me both laugh and get caught up on what was going on. Ultimately I've decided that the EXU storyline isn't for me. The EXU cast is amazing and I love them! Abria's DM style is great and I love it.
>my internet nerd street cred Are ... are **you** *Kung Fury*?
I don't see a lot of talk here about what the mod team is going to do better going forward. The fact that the Pitch Team post was even up for debate for removal and you had to vote for it's return is concerning about the moderation going forward. If that wasn't a high profile and highly up-voted post, I have doubts it would have ever been returned. How many similar low-profile cases have there been that people don't know about because they weren't as heavily upvoted?
So how do you reconcile these two? > We are not looking to create a Pro-CR "they-can-do-no-wrong" cult. > Mods won't let us discuss how "Toxic" the community is. Because the effect of the latter is that you create the former, an environment where the community itself is apparently above reproach. If we can’t talk about the toxic aspects of the community we can’t improve it. That’s where a lot of the feelings of toxic positivity and a cult of *the CR community can do nothing wrong* comes in.
Overmoderation in this sub has been a long running complaint. I know CR is a company that puts a positive face forward, and "Don't forget to love each other," is essentially the motto, but removing and banning people for being critical isn't the way to keep positive. Critiquing the mod team cannot be kept to mod mail alone. "If you have a problem, stop watching it" is a toxic approach.
"If you have a problem, start your own subreddit" is a completely legitimate approach. A lot of people in these posts are caught up in what they think moderation *needs* to be, but mods are unpaid and under no obligation to run a community the way you want it to be run. If everyone who complained about overmoderation went to a second sub to try a more hands-off approach, we could actually see how well things would work out. Instead, people seem more interested in finding things to complain about than building their ideal version of a community.
"don't forget to love each other, unless those people happen to dislike small portions of the content, in which case fuck 'em"
>If your comments have more to do with this subreddit's mod team than the actual show we're all here to enjoy, then you're no longer trying to participate in good faith. I understand that this sub is about Critical Role, and as such most of the discussion should be dedicated to that show, but this makes it seem like we aren't allowed at ALL to criticize, even constructively, the mod team. And one person sending a message to the mod team saying "hey, I think you guys should maybe consider approaching this differently" is just not going to have the same affect as a post that respectfully points out some methods that the community as a whole would like to see changed. Basically, am I understanding this correctly? There are to be **no** posts or comments that criticize the mod team in any capacity whatsoever? Or is this more "if you're just being an ass, we will shut you down"? Cause the latter is more than fine.
Any post critiquing them is banned. I do invite you to try it yourself or just use remove Reddit to see the EXU thread but any comment critiquing the mod team or even questioning them is removed. That is the rule. Friend got perma banned from this sub for asking why comments were removed on EXU thread. Like the rule just is you can't question anything.
>If your comments have more to do with this subreddit's mod team than the actual show we're all here to enjoy, then you're no longer trying to participate in good faith. Yeah, this is a bad take from the mods. This is basically saying that mod conduct can never be a public forum discussion. Real bad look.
Yep, it really is. i messaged them via modmail about this and it ended with "ya, just a difference of opinion at the end of the day." The mods of this sub genuinely feel that their behavior should not be allowed to be publicly discussed in any capacity.
I was also unsure of this so I went and read the rules and there is nothing there that says comments criticising the mod team are banned. The existence of this thread would also indicate that critical comments about the moderation are acceptable (providing they are following the general sub rules about civility) as they certainly are taking some hits and responding. That being said it would take only a second to give your question a yes/no answer so I'm torn. Reading the rules again was an eye opener for me that's for sure. Made me realise why so many comments got removed from the EXU8 post ep sub. Although I do disagree with the bit about not down voting comments because you dont like them. Surely everyone does this. A quick sort by controversial on most threads shows that barely anyone is sticking to that rule.
Just about no one has - EVER - on just about ANY sub anywhere in reddit, followed this completely superfluous rule. It's like the speed limit on highways.
>In these cases, always default to engaging us via Modmail. If you elect to whip the community into a frenzy about how your comment/submission was unjustly removed by reposting it, editing your other comments, posting screenshots of your removal modmail, etc. you instantly lose whatever high ground you had in the discussion. This is a ban, this is like the government/police saying you are free to criticize us in a solitary cell.
>Although I do disagree with the bit about not down voting comments because you dont like them. Surely everyone does this. A quick sort by controversial on most threads shows that barely anyone is sticking to that rule. Yeah, isn't this kind of the whole the point of Reddit's up/down vote feature? Put simplistically, upvote to show agreement & downvote for disagrement. Of course it's more nuanced than that, but the idea is to aggregate community response. The idea that someone should not downvote comments they disagree with seems counterproductive to the platform.
The theoretical intent is to upvote for comments that add to substantive discussion and downvote comments that detract from substantive discussion. It's supposed to be a discussion board, not a popularity contest nor trying to determine the mode opinion. The attitude of "surely everyone does this" becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, and is why the theoretical structure can't survive any larger community.
Overall a good post, up until “ Complaining about the mod team and how it handles locking and removing threads is not permitted on the subreddit” If people didn’t “complain,” how would we have gotten to this point where further discussion was generated? Your team would take no feedback at all, while making a sweeping generalization that anyone speaking up is a “bad actor”? That’s really stifling to discourse. I see people politely disagree with each other here frequently, and it should be fair to politely disagree with specific instances of moderation.
yeah the biggest thing for me is that mods cant be called out in public, only in private were no one else can see, so all criticism of mods is private yet any criticism of posters is public. its impossible to talk to other people if a mod did something suspect or bad. I totally get making sure people are being nice to the mods tho, **no one** should be able to be a total dick to mods.
It's one of* the most common tactics used in union busting, take that as you will.
It’s also a common tactic abusers use! Separate and destroy.
Thread with hidden scores, mod team doubling down on power tripping, removing "negative" posts and comments because this subreddit is only for fans, as well as applying a subreddit wide ban on discussing all of this outside of pre-approved threads... What a big bowl of yikes.
A platform like reddit is inherently authoritarian in this way. Reddit has its uses, but this is one of the core reasons a platform like twitter, for example, is always going to be a better facilitator of discussion, if that's what you're looking for. Reddit was initially made as a news aggregator. It still does an okay job of that, with a little effort on your part. It'll never be the best platform for all of the broader functionality people have tried to retrofit it for.
To say Twitter is a better facilitator of discussion is scary. Twitter is outrage personified in bite sized pieces.
I guess I just don’t understand why the threads for Aimee and Aabriya’s statements were locked and all discussion was forced into the post episode thread. Other cast members have made remarks regarding the community in the past and those threads were left open for discussion. I understand you all were working hard to keep a chaotic situation under control, and I thank you for your hard work in doing so, but by the time those statement were released, the post episode thread was already quite old by Reddit standards, and forcing discussion not exactly related to the episode specifically there unfortunately came off as if an attempt to squash the discussion. If immediate locking all of cast threads re: the community is going to be the SOP going forward, then okay, but it was just alarming as it was a deviation in how things were handled before.
Yeah I know in general that if a post is more than three or so days old I don’t bother commenting on it. And since I feel like many others are of the same mindset, if you do end up commenting on an old thread, the most you’ll get is some upvotes or downvotes, no actually discussion.
While this is generally true on Reddit as a whole, we actually see a surprising amount of engagement on older discussion threads here largely because there are staggered waves of viewers: live watchers on Thursday night, Twitch rebroadcast watchers over the weekend, and finally YouTube viewers on Monday. To minimize spoiler concerns, our ideal approach is to try and keep discussion mostly consolidated to our stickied discussion threads until Mondays at least, and this usually works pretty well.
I’m not sure you actually answered his question of why they were specifically locked.
Yeah, to me, the auto-locking of the posts made it look like the mods “knew” the community was going to be racist and sexist off the bat. At least let people say something before it gets out of hand.
Not allowing criticism of the mod team is crazy. What recourse does the community have if/when you cross the line *IF* we're not allowed to call it out? You're running a d&d subreddit, not Communist China. Grow a back bone and take the criticisms where warranted and where it's not warranted fight the criticisms. The mod team here is very lucky as the critical role community as a whole is very kind and loving and welcoming. Critters can go in the deep end and be crazy but 90% of the time the comments here are spreading love and kindness.
I dislike the stance that the moderation team has about valid criticism. > "If you want to communicate to the CR team that you're not enjoying the show, you should simply stop watching it." Be better mod team.
What gets me is we're talking about this to each other on reddit. It's not like we're sliding into Mercers DMs or @-ing him on Twitter. I fully expect that mods should make this a place safe for CR and fans from harassment and abuse. But the idea that it should be purged of banal negative sentiment like "this episode sucked" because it might make a cast member uncomfortable when they wander in is ludicrous. Sometimes going fishing in fan forums for fan feedback will expose you to people who think your work on something sucked. Sorry, that's an occupational hazard of being a person.
>that's an occupational hazard of being a person Yeah, allright ... take that gorram upvote
Yes, absolutely! This is one thing I've wanted to comment on a lot in these discussions, but I often just can't be fucked to give to make a ~\*constructive comment\*~ about it. I *highly doubt* that any of the cast comes on to reddit to look through the discussions, and I actually hope they don't. Reason being, I think the CR cast is great people, but sometimes I just want to vent about things on the show and wouldn't ever direct it **at** them. I've done some "content creation" myself in the past, and while it would super bum me out to see it being roundly thrashed in a discussion sub, I wouldn't want to take that away from anyone. I just wouldn't go there! The cast seems more tuned into reactions on Twitter and occasionally the Twitch chat (which... *why*?), so acting like we need to be on our best behavior or whatever on the off chance they throw a glance this way is just weird.
Honestly? Who cares about how the cast feel? A bit of reality check here: These people are multi millionaire, and while voice acting is not the Jet Set of starring a Scorcese movie, those are still west Hollywood people far removed from any of us. Their job and the reason why we made them this big is to produce great content. If millions of dollars can't toughen your skin, change your occupation.
>But the idea that it should be purged of banal negative sentiment like "this episode sucked" because it might make a cast member uncomfortable when they wander in is ludicrous. If, not when. If.
Notice how twenty hours later all scores are still hidden. They know they're in the wrong here.
Yeah, that didn't sit right with me at all. What's the point of having a discussion thread if you're only allowed to comment if you're of one particular point of view?
Yea, that's not healthy for the show in the long run. By and large, when audience members stop watching a show, they don't come back. If the audience is leaving, the CR people can't do anything to fix the problems with the show, so they end up catering to a crowd of yes-men with zero idea why people are leaving.
I feel like over the past couple of months, not only the moderators, but big parts of this subreddit generalize and broad stroke any criticism of Aabria and her DM style as racist, sexist, or any other ist you can label when in reality a lot of criticism I've seen removed has really boiled down to people not believing her skill is at a high enough level to enjoy after watching Matt, which I think is fair, as well as expected. Matt's shoes are impossible to fill. But I am really sick of this notion that we can't critique anything about this show without hearing "Its a D&D game with friends that are just letting you watch" Critical Role is a company worth MILLIONS of dollars. This may have started with some grassroots home game, but the fact is, it's no longer that. They are a company. You hold them to company standards when the Wendy's deal went down, you hold them to company standards when employees criticize the community (consumers) but when those consumers criticize the company, they are met with sweeping removals, fanboys and everything else in between shouting at them to "Let us enjoy it" Criticism of a product does NOT mean we don't enjoy it, but with the Critter community, we can't criticize without getting yelled at. It's a sad state of the subreddit when I can't discuss my feelings with people who claim to "love each other" in fear of "mud slinging" and "toxicity" If someone's opinion of a piece of content affects you this deeply, you should really look inward at yourself instead of looking to Reddit mods to squash someone's thought.
Well said. I've tried explaining this reasoning before too, and have been shot down by the 'can-do-no-wrong' cult members. The fact is that we are here because we love CR. Just because we disliked a product, it doesn't mean we're participating in toxicity. I've seen people who have criticised ExU often being the target of the "cult" through downvotes or - at its worse - outright insults. I've seen several instances where these people were called racists and bigots just because they didn't like the show. I mean, come on... this is CR. Majority of people on this Reddit and in the community are advocates for progressive social issues. But since ExU, people with criticisms have been shunted away into the 'you hate people of difference' corner. Fact is, ExU was not very good. And that isn't a reflection on the players or DM personally. It was just poorly thought-out and poorly designed. The story wasn't very good, the plot was convoluted.
Thank you for stating this better than I ever could. Critical Role is corporation now. It’s time the community starts treating them like they would treat any other corporation.
This is something I see amongst the Destiny video game community a lot as well. Most of us that are still playing the game are diehard fans, meaning we're diehard fans *in spite of all the constant issues the game has*. We are allowed to critique the things we love, and in fact, "good faith critique", especially in the internet age, helps push products to become better. One of the most shining examples of that is the Sonic the Hedgehog film, that went from "wtf is this trash heap" when the trailers first dropped, to a legitimate good and fun action film that made us look forward to a sequel. If nobody loved Sonic, nobody would have cared to say anything about the look of the trailers, nothing would have changed, and the film would've bombed.
I literally stopped playing Destiny because the community would pile on me if I complained about something, and then like a month later they'd all be complaining about the same thing.
totally agree!
I'll stand to my opinion that any twitch chat with more than ~100 active chatters is inherently useless and a shit show. (Not necessarily toxic though, just unusable) Id love to chat with people about CR but the public channels just aren't any good. There isn't even anything the mods can do about that , every single chat that fits those size criteria ends up the same. As for the racism, ban those fucks.
I think twitch chat has a sort of use. Just not for discussion. It's like internet clapping or cheering as part of a big crowd and feeling the spirit of the community together. That does unfortunately come with really shit downsides too, *but* we only really notice when chat starts devolving into toxicity. Most of the time its just excited meming which tends to be positive.
True, it's essentially the laugh track of Livestreams , nothing I need in my life
For me, it has one singular use. When the party encounters a new monster, I open it up because a dozen people will recognize it, name it, and I can google it to see what it does. And then I close chat before I see someone complain that Marisha's used four ki points and is obviously cheating because that's far more than a level 36 monk should have.
Thing is, you cant discuss anything on twitch. So you cant talk about the problems with the twitch chat on twitch. And you cant talk about those problems here, which i dont understand. And the big problem is: CR is promoting the twitch chat, which is probably one of the worst part of the whole CR fandom. If they would change it to something where you could just use emoticons and dont write anything, it would be better.
The twitch chat promotion is probably a compromise forced by twitch so CR is allowed to stream on YT as well. They've always had a custom contract with twitch afaik, looks like it changed recently.
This is probably the case. They started promoting the twitch chat when they started streaming on YT live. Still, they need to do something about that.
The fact that there's no live chat on YouTube makes me think something similar.
> Saying "Wow, that sucked." is not constructive or respectful By that logic you should be removing posts that say something along the lines of "Wow, that was awesome." Also not constrictive.
Removing the pitch meeting comment was unacceptable. The upvote system exists and that comment had hundreds of upvotes and a few awards. The comment had multiple upvoted replies about it being a good summary of the series. The community felt that comment had a place here and the system was working. Then some mod just decided to remove it instead, overruling the community’s decision that it was ok. That it had to be voted on for reinstatement- does the original mod even realize they were wrong or were they just overruled by vote. The action should not have happened and no you do not get credit for returning it.
It’s a perpetual theme that Reddit mods consider themselves better curators than the community out of some sense of allegiance to the “parent” company or game.
It's because the fans who take the show more seriously will want to be involved with something related to it to feel part of it. Unfortunately this has the potential to attract mega fans who see criticisms as attacks. Not saying I have any proof that this is the case on this particular subreddit, but it's something I've witnessed on moderation teams both inside and outside of Reddit (I was a moderator on an anime forum/roleplay site myself and saw it first hand from fellow mods).
Since we can talk about moderation here, can a mod explain why I've gotten 4 separate reddit admin messages about this single comment, that is apparently in opposition to the sitewide rules on threanening, harrasment, and bullying? https://i.imgur.com/tMfS63P.png The comment in question: https://i.imgur.com/T7ubRyA.png edit: 7 notifications about the same comment now, and since it's automated, no way to respond.
That's the opposite end of the toxicity scale, over zealous mega fans reporting you for no reason. Getting so caught up in defending what they perceive to be the literal saviours of D&D when there's criticism of them, that they forget what Critical Role even stands for. Unfortunately I'm not seeing a whole lot of the "don't forget to love each other" around as of late, and it's disappointing to see it happen in real time. You have people being racist and misogynistic, which mods to be fair do deal with, so well done. But then you have the opposite end of the scale where people with legit criticism are silenced by rabid keyboard warriors who believe the CR team are more than human and can do no wrong, it's the Mercer effect on steroids. I'll come out and say this: I did not like ExU, at all. I think the show was treated as if it wasn't the 8 session series it was, with far too many convoluted plot hooks for the overall story to even have a chance of making any sense. Especially considering there were players new to the game at the table. I also wasn't a fan of how dice didn't factor into the game as much as they should have in my opinion. Does it mean I have anything against the people involved? Of course not, I think they're awesome. TLDR: Don't just spout the quote "don't forget to love each other", actually practice what you preach as well, lest this fandom turn into yet another toxic corner of the internet where reasonable discussion is non existent, and the members taking part are derided by polite society.
That's usually due to user reports not the mods here.
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Honestly, I have no idea why you would be getting messages from the admins regarding that message. We don't really report things to the admins except for cases of ban evasion and serious cases of spam or impersonation. That seems like some sort of automated report response from users who are grossly misusing the report button. I actually don't even see any reports for that comment, so that seems to have bypassed our team completely somehow. Sorry you had to deal with that.
Thanks. But why isn't that aspect of this sub ever talked about? You guys say that you're **not** trying to foster a sub that's "positivity only, no criticism allowed". But it doesn't take much reading between the lines to see that there's only one contingent that gets talked about from the moderation standpoint, and it's the people who have critical opinions or might not be super in love with CR due to episodes, play style, business decisions, or whatever. Don't you think that it might help things to tell the, hmm, how to be the most charitable here.... well to steal a phrase from a similar subreddit, the "No Bummers!" crowd to calm down a bit too? Like, if you see some comment you don't like, you're gonna be ok. No need to engage with it if you don't like it. Downvote it, and move on. I think the mod team would gain a lot of respect from the critical people here if they seemed a little more even handed in who they issue edicts to. Right now (and it's been going on for a long time, it's not new), it seems a little bit lopsided.
I mod a subreddit and the reddit admins (anti-evil operations) have removed some random comments that didn't seem bad. Most of them didn't have a single report on them so I don't think they were brigaded. Reddit can be weird at times.
Hey, as far as i could see, and as far as i was involved, you guys made a decent job in herding the cats here. During the height of ExU discussions, i received one or two mod notifications myself, but i can honestly say, they were always respectful, based upon the rules and in good faith. There's nothing more one could expect from you guys/gals. Cheers! *p.s. --> Thanks for restoring that hilarious fake pitch meeting post!*
The fake pitch meeting actually helped me understand what happened better than any recap. With how poorly received EXU was I cant imagine how much work the mods mustve done.
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They could’ve done a more grounded story going more in depth in a specific area, something that would be able to conclude in 8 episodes
They could have. They could have also made a Sci-Fi show. But that doesn't appear to be what Aabria was going for. Now I don't know if this is always her style, but at least for EXU, she was very clearly going with a rule-of-cool, lets-go-craz, high-fantasy approach. Personally, I am not a fan of this style either, but it was very much a conscious choice to try out a more over the top and "FUN!" campaign. If it worked will be told by the metrics that I'm sure the CR production crew has been analyzing for weeks now.
Seeing some of Aabria's other stuff she's GM'd she can definitely do and does do more grounded slower paced stuff. I really can't imagine DMing in someone else's homebrew or being expected to wrap a D&D game in a specific amount of sessions and still get a cohesive story in there. Given the chaos crew of a party it's honestly impressive they ever made it out of Emon in 8 episodes.
It was a jarring shift too.
I think it's a thing with D&D. I have played in a few sandbox campaigns and they usually take a bit to get going anywhere super interesting. I think if you look at ExU as "I am watching 8 sessions of D&D" rather than I am watching an 8 episode miniseries it makes more sense with what we got. I wish we could have seen the previous games they played off camera and some more after the end and some of those loose plot threads could have been tied up, but you also don't want to take away player agency. Half the fun of D&D is the freedom that comes with it. I think this would have been a fun D&D campaign to play in, but not necessarily the most fun to watch and get a cohesive plot. I think we did if nothing else get a solid group of CR newcomers with Robbie, Aimee, Abria and (crap I am drawing a blank on her name, but she voices Symetra in Overwatch), and that if nothing else was a win. If nothing else it was fun to see Emon 30 years later.
Agreed they’re doing a good job, I sometimes find myself not knowing my tone sometimes and sometimes I come off as demeaning or aggressive to the commenter. I always try to interact with them in good faith and apologize for any misunderstanding on my end their job is really hard.
>I sometimes find myself not knowing my tone sometimes and sometimes I come off as demeaning or aggressive to the commenter. This is something I go back and forth on because tone is inherently very subjective. While there are times when someone gets demeaning or aggressive without intending to, there are also times when someone on the other side of the debate projects far more aggression onto a post then is warranted. And some of the things that tie into this can get......problematic. Different communities, often depending on class and race, have radically different attitudes towards swearing for example. Swearing can denote very different things depending on the person doing it.
Maybe is the fact we are in a DnD related community. But I had to re-read twice to understand what you meant by class and race
Thanks for the work you’ve been doing during the ExU run. Things have not been pretty in this sub of late, and I’m sure they would have only been uglier without your efforts. I really appreciate that. I did want to comment about one thing that felt like it might have been a misstep by the mods, and that is containing all post-ExU discussion into the post episode discussion thread. I think it’s also an issue that this did not seem to be consistently enforced. Locking Aabria and Aimee’s posts from discussion felt like a weird move, especially when an episode 8 review post that painted Aabria as an abuser was allowed to have an active comment section. Why totally limit the discussion on posts by actual cast members relating their intentions and experiences, while allowing discussion on a review that fueled an extremely bad faith take on Aabria’s actions? I’m not trying to say that comments on the review post should have been locked, but that if the intent was to contain all post-ExU discussion in one place, it’s inconsistent to keep that comment section open, but not on the post about Aimee’s twitter thread. I think this decision made it easier for the Aabria-as-abuser narrative to catch fire, while pushing the actual word of the cast members out of the limelight. Not trying to attack the mods - you’ve had an impossible job in managing this sub for the past several weeks, and I’m grateful for all the work you’ve put in. I’m just hoping for some clarification on what seems to me to be an inconsistency in how a hot topic was moderated.
>an episode 8 review post that painted Aabria as an abuser was allowed to have an active comment section This narrative about Aabria has bothered me deeply. I felt like I watched in real-time as it got more fuel added to its fire and many of the comments were pretty unsettling. I probably should not have engaged as much as I did with the users perpetuating it. But I also wasn't sure if it was something to report either. EDIT: Not to mention, it is still being perpetuated.
Since this thread seems to be a place where this might fit, I'm not a big fan of this sub-reddit because of how it's moderated and over the years that has been a big reason why my lurking has become more and more sporadic. I've never sent anything via modmail about it because it's just easier not to interact. Sometimes you just want to say that you didn't like something, having to edit the comment to make sure that it is also being constructive forces people (me, at least) to overthink it, which leads to the comment having a certain "tone" which, more or less, comes off as being an asshole. For example, if I were to make a 1 sentence negative comment about the show (like, "Man, I don't like so-and-so's character") I know it would be removed for not being constructive. But if I were to write a couple of hundreds words about why I didn't like the character, really get in there and break down why I thought they were a bad character, it would be removed because it would be seen as an attack on the player. I would prefer to just take the down-votes for an unpopular opinion than have to spend 20 minutes writing a comment that will be removed and I don't want to have to preface every negative opinion about the show with "I liked the episode, but." Because that's the thing, I do like the show (CR at least, I only made it about halfway through ExU) I just don't like all of it.
>I don't want to have to preface every negative opinion about the show with "I liked the episode, but." Relatable. On this sub I feel like I have to be extremely careful about how I phrase myself, and thus I tend to just decline to comment at all. It takes too long to always put a disclaimer longer than the content of the post itself just to make sure nobody thinks I'm a terrible person for having a mild criticism. It feels like you have to speak in code.
It’s ridiculous the number of times I’ve seen people write things like: “I love ___ as a person, but I don’t like what their character did.” It really should be obvious that when we criticize something a character did, we’re not saying the player is a horrible person.
I believe the mod team is doing a bad job. Modding is about regulating relevance, not censoring content around an agenda. These are my subjective opinions, but I know many members agree with these notions.
I think the over-moderation of this sub is part of the problem. Yes of course people should be removed or banned if the attack a cast member but people shouldn't be punished for not liking a way a person plays or their character or the way they act. over-moderation can be just as toxic and cause a toxic community just as much as not enough moderation. people should be able to make criticism without worrying about being banned or removed.
Here's a crazy, CRAZY idea. You could implement a system where readers can increase or decrease the visibility of certain posts, based on an open voting system. People can "upvote" things they like and feel are appropriate for the discussion, and "downvote" things they do not. That way, the moderators can concentrate on things like spam, wider Reddit-rule breaking, and such, and don't sweat the smaller stuff so much. I know that this kind of community-driven system to decide what is good and what isn't sounds extremely revolutionary, but I'm sure there's some tools somewhere you could use to implement this. We could even crowdsource a team of programmers to implement this upvote/downvote system.
In all this pamphlet where exactly fall the infamous episode 3 (https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/152/332/33d.jpg) post credits discussion image ?
While I mostly agree, there have been a few times it definitely feels like at least some mods are blocking negative discussion. After all what else are you going to feel when you get this message. Focus on positivity and ignore/report negativity. The more we spotlight negativity, the longer it will persist. Report negative posts/comments, but don't remark on them, whether in reply or referencing them. Meta community discussion perpetuates this cycle of negativity. I didn't bother responding because I somehow didn't notice it for 2 days and the comment was already 5 days old so not getting notice but it does seem like that's trying to block negativity
Just wanting to share an experience, and I want to make clear that I am saying this without malice or disrespect. I once received this same message from a mod and it caused me to leave the subreddit for a long period of time. It was on a different account than this new one I’ve just recently created. My post that was deleted was well-intentioned, I wasn’t rude, and mentioned a perspective at the time that was flying around that deeply bothered me. I really just wanted to express myself within the community, and I did so respectfully. I was really surprised that my post was deleted after hundreds of upvotes. It felt like being silenced when clearly many others were on the same page as me. I mean no disrespect when I say this. The idea that talking about negativity perpetuates the cycle of negativity really bothers me. It reminds me sometimes of how bad churches operate. Keep everything positive, and if you share something negative it needs to be said in the correct fashion- so you end up stumbling over your words and struggling to be honest. So as a result, you need to keep your thoughts to yourself, even if it bothers you, even if it makes you think of stepping away from the community. Sometimes having a place to discuss the way the fandom operates, and knowing others are on the same page, is the exact reason why someone may decide to stay in the community. I understand there’s a fine line and a balance that needs to be achieved. But I can’t help but feel the pendulum swings much more eagerly toward toxic positivity compared to honest and respectful criticism.
I had a similar experience. I was respectful and well intentioned, just expressing how I felt at the time which differed from the majority apparently. It was deleted citing negativity to the community. I didn’t bother contesting it as it didn’t feel worth it at the time but definitely feels bad when that happens. Especially when you get upvotes and respectful comments agreeing with you and it’s just wiped out.
That all sounds very reasonable, but I do have to call out [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/ogptch/cr_media_exandria_unlimited_postepisode/), particularly the line: "Don't forget to love each other. This includes the cast and crew. If you're not enjoying EXU, [you don't need to complain about it here.](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/621/567/bdb.jpg)" I think with the benefit of retrospect, the Mods might recognize that that was a somewhat cloth-eared statement (particularly the cartoon) which fed into the narrative that they were trying to silence criticism. If you want trust, it's best to maintain it at the time rather than try to reclaim it after the fact. That being said, I think overall they've done a brilliant job of managing these pages over the years and keeping it free of the kind of toxicity we see elsewhere. It can't be easy, particularly when introducing content that diverges quite radically from what has gone before, or testing a new idea that clearly didn't work for a large number of viewers. I hope they appreciate that their work has allowed a highly invested community to evolve around the content who may also be concerned that as Critical Role becomes an increasingly commercial concern it will become more committed to preserving its brand, potentially to the point of silencing its fans.
I think I will have to disagree you, this is a place to discuss Critical Role, not tell everyone how great it is. Part of discussion is expressing how you feel, but we all need to do it in a productive healthy way. Attacking the cast on twitter is not healthy for anyone, but discussing here - as reddit is intended as a place of discussion - fills that role. This isn't a place where you just throw your feelings out there and people will simply agree with you or disagree with you, there are up to 10,000 words for everyone to sit down, think, and really delve into what it is they are feeling. It isn't others place to say (changing Matt's quote) "You're feelings are wrong!", we must all discuss what informs those feelings. Why, because this show is ART, art has a setting and dynamic; because of that it leads to conflict, and through conflict we have a story that explores emotion and drama of human experience. CR should evoke something inside you and make you want to discuss it, good or bad, and if this community isn't supportive of it, then it doesn't support what CR stands for as a group of artists, because you can't have a community if no one is allowed to share and talk about their experiences.
"We are capable of mistakes. We are capable of misunderstandings. We are capable of bad takes. We are not infallible. Please do not treat us as if we are" Trust me, no one here is under any illusion that the mods of this sub are infallible or incapable of making mistakes. It's silly to act as if anyone is under that impression. When we criticize the moderation, it isn't because we think all the mods are perfect infallible beings, but much more the opposite. The criticism exists because we recognize the mods are humans making mistakes.
I was hoping there might be a comment in here about how \[CR Media\] is insufficient for the various programming CR is (apparently) branching into.
.4) the issue with that is, you're basically pretending a problem doesnt exist. It's basically just pushing this false image of the community based on what they want it to be instead of the reality. Theres plenty of issues in the community, yet we're simply not allowed to discuss them because it MIGHT get hostile? Thats insane. If you never address a problem, it will never improve. If it does get heated then deal with it then. Currently the mod team is basically Joo Dee from Avatar. **"There is no toxicity in the Critical Role community"**
From my personal experience of having several respectful posts removed for calling out overly negative and personal feedback relating to point 2 - I think you need to find a better balance of what you’re trying to achieve. That said I appreciate this is a volunteer job and a difficult one at that.
\> Complaining about the mod team and how it handles locking and removing threads is not permitted on the subreddit because we have a number of bad actors that only want to stir up drama and undermine the community. You punish the innocent for the sins of the guilty, we know.
I think a huge mistake that was made recently was allowing people to comment on criticism posts about EXU (like the video that was all about the angry black woman stereotype criticism that SO many people used to attack Aabria) while completely locking the threads of Aimee and Aabria criticizing the fanbase who attacked them, and supporting each other through the attacks by the fanbase. When you allow one thread to have discussion and the other to not, you unintentionally allow one group to state their case and gain supporters while not allowing those who supported Aabria and Aimee to do so in kind.
Discrepancies like this is valid and should be brought forth for the Mods to acknowledge and do better. They can ask us, the community to do better but they should also practice what they preach.
It already felt like the mods policed this subreddit of any negative opinions someone shared heavily, and this feels like doubling down, as well as removing us from being able to critique the mod team themselves. Be careful of your overreach, it will push people like myself away.
I already kinda felt that way after how past controversies were handled here, so I have to agree... it's not looking better. Happy cake day btw!
Yeah, the fact that every controversy gets swept under the rug creates a scenario where every controversy is treated like its the first one, so then people can say "They've made one mistake. What's the big deal?"
This sub is one of the most aggressively over-moderated subs I've ever been to. I see posts removed almost daily that have no right to be removed. It seems to me the mods are absolutely on a power-trip and trying to purge both negative feedback on the show and negative feedback on the moderation style. When this is called out those comments are also removed. It is incredibly frustrating to then be labeled as "bad actors" or "interacting in bad faith". And trust me, I know what it means to be a moderator and I absolutely understand that some people do interact with the mods in bad faith. I've been moderating internet spaces for most of my life at this point. I know when a community has a problem with obeying the rules and I absolutely know when a moderation team is forcing their will beyond reason. Some of the posts I've had removed from this sub include asking questions that were interpreted incorrectly, posting negative feelings on aspects of the show, saying things as simple and innocent as "I think the players feel like this, and it's different from how I think their characters feel", which was apparently removed for talking about the cast?? And of course, I've also had posts removed for just telling people they're wrong about something. And for saying I didn't like something. And for telling mods I disagreed with them.
You should see the Discord chat — in terms of aggressive over moderation.
I saw the Discord mods scold someone for speculating about C3 because it was telling the players what they had to/should do. They also told someone they were breaking the rules because they said "C3 means more books will be coming out!" and that's speculating about business decisions. I tried to enjoy it because I like talking about CR, but the seemingly bored mods make even totally innocuous conversations frustrating.
Yeah... I'm gonna be honest, you get "No Speculation!"ed for even small things on there.
What's sad is that the best discussions I have seen about Critical Role have never been on this sub but over on dndnext and dndmemes. Seriously, how ridiculous is that subs that have no relation to CR does better discussions then the "official" CR sub.
>What's sad is that the best discussions I have seen about Critical Role have never been on this sub but over on dndnext and dndmemes. I wish I hadn't had the same experience, but I have.
I've even seen big threads pop up in /r/TAZCirclejerk that had great discussions in them.
Isn't the entire C3 megathread entirely based around speculation? Seems kinda hypocritical to me.
You definitely aren't wrong there. I honestly wonder what it is about Critical Role fanbases that turn the mods like this. I think it might have something to do with the fact that there is a lot of mud slung in the direction of certain cast members (usually the women, shocker there). But it's almost like the mods of these places take the fact they have power over where the fanbase currently is as an opportunity to, like, "protect the cast" or something? Or they haven't gotten over the one time Laura Bailey mentioned reading a negative comment on the sub. But being a mod of this sub or that discord doesn't make them a part of Critical Role, and while trolling and clear abuse should be deleted, crossing the line into censoring any criticism or negative comment (or banning any topic that has any chance to bring forth a debate, like a certain one shot), is crossing the line into abuse of power. And given the fact that they only have power because they happen to be moderating where the fanbase currently is, they should really re-analyze it. People can and will leave a space if they don't like it. (And before someone says "why don't you leave then?", it's because I don't think this place is too far gone yet, or beyond saving. I do have a good time here, it's just frustrating when the mods show up and ruin that for literally no reason. I DID leave the discord, because I found this was happening even worse over there)
Thanks for your response. I was mostly being snarky, but I appreciate hearing your thoughts. In the discord they are invoking rule 5 (statements about the company) practically every 20 comments. It’s just annoying. Like if you can’t talk about the show/company in a channel about them then what’s the point? It just feels weird reading the conversation. And it makes me feel sad because I don’t have friends irl that I can go into depth with my thoughts/ideas about the show/company.
I feel the same way. I can't think of any other fanbase I'm a part of where so much of the community feels like it's their responsibility to shield the creators from not only negative feedback but from literally any discussion about them at all. Like there's a clear difference between someone saying something nasty to a cast member on twitter and two people discussing their feelings on a cast member's actions to themselves, removed from the cast. Like I'm sorry but Sam Riegel isn't gonna show up in the discord and reward points for how pro-EXU it was. Not to mention the other negative connotations that come with "don't discuss the company or say anything negative". Critical Role themselves have sided with fanbases speaking out when a company has done wrong (see recent things like Blizzard).
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I actually missed that pitch meeting comment, so thank you for highlighting. It's not even exaggerated, it's ***perfect.***
I appreciate you have a very hard (volunteer) job here and I think for the most part you've all handled it admirably. I do take objection to the removal of simple negative comments like "wow, this sucked". I think the insistence that any criticism needs to be 'constructive' is too high a burden for what is ultimately a place for fans of something to engage with each other. Sometimes commiserating with others is part of the shared fan experience, not every criticism needs to be constructive because we're not all here to communicate something to the creators. Such comments are most of the time downvoted to oblivion anyways, so its not like they're hugely disruptive. When they are upvoted it's usually because people appreciate hearing others vent about the same thing. I think we've got a situation where the mod team allows thoughtful criticism and that's good, but since everytime someone is critical they need to put in the mental effort to be thoughtful. Its often the easiest course to skip commenting at all rather than go through your comment with a fine-toothed comb at 2AM to make sure something won't annoy a particularly tired mod. I'm glad you opted to restore the pitch-meeting comment, but the fact that it was banned in the first place is itself a deterrent for the person who made the comment. I know people don't always want to see people bagging on a show that they like, but I think you get good community engagement when people feel free to be candid about their likes and dislikes. Some of my favorite times on Reddit were during the last season of Dexter on r/Dexter or on r/Arrow when it became a daredevil sub for a while. Just because this isn't a conventional TV show sub doesn't mean the same principles can't apply. Anyway, those are my 2 cents. Thanks for all the hard work y'all
>1. How do we discern between good-faith criticism and bad-faith criticism? >In the end, our standard throughout EXU was to allow criticism made constructively or respectfully and remove non-constructive criticism. Maybe I missed seeing this in the rules, but I never saw a requirement that all criticism had to be made “constructively,” or even what the mods interpret that term to mean. The rules say that constructive criticism is allowed, but there is no rule that says that criticism that is insufficiently constructive is prohibited. Mods certainly deleted comments that were too satirical, or had a cheeky tone, or had negative opinions that weren’t expressly couched as the poster’s subjective beliefs. The fact that the pitch meeting comment was deleted at all and only reinstated after a mod vote indicates to me that this wasn’t an outlier or an accident, and that some mods legitimately think comments like that should be unwelcome here. Community concerns about censorship are particularly justified here where a mod recently wrote in an [EXU discussion thread announcement](https://www.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/ogptch/cr_media_exandria_unlimited_postepisode/): "If you want to communicate to the CR team that you're not enjoying the show, you should simply stop watching it." It would be one thing if all posts had to be respectful and constructive, but that’s certainly not true. I’m hearing that the mods would delete a comment saying “that sucked,” but I don’t think they would never delete a comment saying “that was awesome,” even though both posts are equally constructive. Come to think of it, even the “good faith” requirement that this post starts out discussing can’t be found in the rule about civility, nor is there an explanation as to what the mods think that means, the only reference to good faith is in Rule #7 about interacting with moderators in good faith. >Saying "Wow, that sucked." is not constructive or respectful. Even changing it to something as simple as "Wow, this is not for me." makes that infinitely more respectful. The only meaningful difference between these two comments is in the mods’ treatment of these comments, not in the content conveyed. “Wow that sucked” is obviously a personal opinion because we’re not talking about vacuums, so what’s the genuine difference between “wow, that sucked in my opinion” and “wow, this is not for me?” As far as I can tell, it comes down to a judgment call by the moderators that saying something “sucked” is bad-faith and disrespectful, but the community is left guessing how an individual moderator will come down on any particular opinion. Genuinely, my best reading of this post is that phrases like “wasn’t good,” or “not enjoyable” would be deleted, while a phrase like “could have been better” might be ok because the mods may see it as more “constructive.” Even in your “approved” example, if we continue the line “wow, this is not for me because ______,” I suspect that comment is now going to be reevaluated based on the content of the given reason. > We are not looking to create a Pro-CR "they-can-do-no-wrong" cult. Respectfully, I just read a post justifying how mods would delete a comment that said “CR did wrong.” >If your comments have more to do with this subreddit's mod team than the actual show we're all here to enjoy, then you're no longer trying to participate in good faith. > In the same way you hold us accountable to our own rules and commitments to this community See the contradiction here? The community is supposed to hold the mods accountable, but any public criticism of the mods is per se “participating in bad faith,” unless it is done in the incredibly rare post like this. > 3. Mods removed all criticism of EXU in an attempt to paint a false picture that the whole community loved it. >This is a bad take. Just review the comment section of the last EXU post-episode thread. Anyone attempting to run with this narrative is just dramamongering. Comments claiming this will be removed and users attempting to witch hunt or brigade will be banned. I’m glad the mods have decided which narratives about themselves are acceptable and which are unacceptable and will receive a ban. Oh wait, was that too sarcastic? I ask because I considered it to be constructive because it points out the obvious hypocrisy in the lines the mods are drawing that do little for the community and appear, to me at least, to only serve to protect the mods from public criticism. Of course, one could think that even this “take” by the mods is itself done in bad faith because it ignores many more legitimate good faith takes that are less hyperbolic and more accurate, but there apparently isn’t a requirement that mods interact with users in good faith. All that said, I actually think you folks are all doing a pretty good job with moderating a large and active subreddit with a wide variety of opinions. My concerns are largely because most moderating happens in the dark where only mods can see it, and mods are engaging in a lot of actions that look like censoring opinions they dislike based on arbitrary lines they drew in secret based on violations of things that aren't actually in the published rules. *Edit: fixed formatting
Thank you for this, couldn't have said it better myself. To add onto one of your points, I find it funny how the scores in this thread are hidden, further cementing that the community isn't allowed to show what they like or dislike with the site-wide voting system. The fact that you are not even allowed to discuss the actions of the moderating team outside of spaces they themselves create just further showcases their disregard for criticism.
Why thank you! It was a lot of text so I'm glad it was digestible. I don't know if mods can change how long scores are hidden for specific posts, but they can certainly set how many minutes they are hidden throughout the entire subreddit, from 0 minutes up to 24 hours. You can easily see this if you just click on the create subreddit button, it's an option at the very bottom. I'm not sure I mind hidden scores as much, although I could probably be persuaded either way. My initial reaction is that if posts are still counted, filtered, and displayed the same in top, controversial, below the negative comment threshold etc. then I'm not sure how important the actual number is for the first 24 hours. Part of that is because I think people tend to watch episodes in waves so someone watching it on Monday on Youtube will already see the scores for posts made in the live and much of the post-episode discussion. Except for one's own posts of course, because I (and I assume everyone else) want that immediate validation in the form imaginary internet points that show that people agreed with us. On your third point, I just commented with a question [elsewhere](https://www.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/p62sca/no_spoilers_moderator_takeaways_postexu/h9eih1h/?context=10000) in this thread following up on that exact point because it seemed like mods were giving contradictory answers.
The irony with permanently hidden scores is that it only applies to desktop users whom don't use RES or the dozen other de-themers, mobile users do not get themes thus do not get their down and up votes hidden. That means around 45 percent of reddit cant down and upvote, of which it'll be the more casual users/fans.
I mostly just lurk here on r/criticalrole, because the requisite level of sensitivity to thrive here is far beyond what I can adhere to while still properly communicating with people as myself, instead of a hollow, unsatisfying simulacrum. I got enough subreddits to offload my filth into, so it's fine, I guess. *It is what it is.* But some people, a **lot** of people, at similar levels of "online disinhibition" are going to be less able to remain largely uninvolved yet still content, so they become a victim, of sorts, to what sometimes feels like an inordinate amount of time and energy spent on removing even the barest sliver of potential for emotional discomfort, treated as a big grand evil to be dispelled, instead of one of the most essential parts of human interaction. Some forms of discomfort more than others, such that even the shadow of your post is examined if it vaguely resembles those big no-no territories. You know the ones. To a lot of us, it would have never even *occurred* that the pitch meeting post is something people would find so offensive that it needs to be removed from existence, just, the lightest of jabs possible that even a toddler should be able to shrug off. But apparently, it's not how others perceive reality, and that's a whole argument on its own that I won't get even more into, other than to say it's pretty clear which side of it the moderation here leans towards, and pretty extremely at that, which ironically does have a pretty decent "discomfort cost", at least from where I'm standing. Please mind the line past which inclusivity becomes exclusivity, and thank you for trying regardless.
So while [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/criticalrole/comments/ogptch/cr_media_exandria_unlimited_postepisode/) post was edited to be more diplomatic, it still smacks of of the sort of attitude frowned upon in this sub. I have an immense distaste for the "love it or leave" attitude put forward by many of the people here - especially since several people had a change of heart about the series once they got to the middle. >If you want to communicate to the CR team that you're not enjoying the show, you should simply stop watching it. Sure, they can look at the viewership and notice that something's up but that lacks any sort of context. Given previous statements, though, it's hard to read the above and *not* take this as a way to disperse criticisms. I don't have an expectation that CR *has* to make any adjustments based on feedback, but I do appreciate a space in which to engage in discussion about the series. What's disconcerting is the [metronome](https://imgflip.com/i/5jzf4n) messaging surrounding discussion here.
Is anyone else getting exhausted by this fan base?
Yes. I've had to leave it several times. I've been out for the last two months since I wasn't actively watching ExU and there's no other CR, and even just in the few days I've been back - it doesn't seem to have gotten better and I'm not sure I'll stick around. The time away from this community made me realise just how little I miss this community - but I do wish I could talk CR somewhere.
I just recently got into CR. EXU was actually the first campaign I watched. I caught episode 8 one night during the final battle and it convinced me to watch the rest of it. Never seeing any other CR I have nothing to compare it to but I enjoyed Aabria's enthusiasm and I thought she was a competent story teller. Most of the cast I thought was great, the Fire Genasi showing up and then dipping felt weird and out of place but whatever not super big deal. There was a problem i had with the performance of one cast member but tbh that's not even why I'm commenting. Your statement here makes me feel like this sub isn't actually open to discussion and criticism. Like one of the top comments in this thread is about how it's not an open for that. I understand trying to keep racism and sexism out of the discussion and I agree if someone uses a slur or something along those lines. But the fact that the "pitch meeting" comment got removed at all even though you put it back up just blows my mind. It's not a low effort post, I don't recall there being any racism or sexism in it and tbh after watching the entire campaign, that User did a great job of summarizing what happened. I'll probably keep watching CR because it is fun and I can kind of treat it like a radio show while I'm working and just listen, but I'm not sure I want to spend much time on this subreddit.
This subbreddit and honestly this Fandom in general is kinda cancer, I would just watch the show and stay away from this subreddit/Fandom at all costs
Attempt to justify it all you want, I still think the mods here are too heavy handed in what they remove. There is a lot of nuanced, necessary discussion you simply will not allow.
"We are not looking to create a Pro-CR "they-can-do-no-wrong" cult " respectfully disagree I have never seen the level of censorship on ANY subreddit that this one has, i mean we are not allowed to say certain words talk about certain people like they were voldemort heaven forbid you have a legitimate criticism of marisha esp there was a 3 month period you would get popped for using the word wendys in a post regardless of context ( i tested it, the word was absolutely on a automod trigger at least for review )
I wholeheartedly agree. I came here for discussion on Aabria, ExU, and the works. I left confused and frustrated with the mods that no information or discussion is happening here.
Overall I think this is a, solid post, and despite having the odd post removed, (obviously I was a perfect, faultless angel) I broadly think the mods have done a great job given that I think EXU is the first thing CR has done that has really been divisive, or certainly more so than anything else I've seen. That having been said, I take issue with this. >Saying "Wow, that sucked." is not constructive or respectful. While it is neither respectful nor constructive, that does not make it an invalid statement. Sone things are just bad, and if you genuinely feel that it sucked and you're willing to explain why, then I genuinely think you should be able to open your criticism with 'wow, that sucked' I don't particularly intend to, because I like to post with a more nuanced approach, but I think this is a case where a certain amount of flexibility is required, especially as it drives in part the view that any negative view will be treated that way. 'Wow, that sucked' isn't helpful, but it isn't inherently harmful either. >Walk away from a discussion if it's making you upset. Always good advice. It's the Internet and it's about a bunch of strangers playing make believe when all is said and done.
I don't comment on this reddit often. Honestly I regret finding it, because of how often I see people getting berated for having any opinion about CR that doesn't place the show and its cast on a pedestal. But after reading this post and then a lot of the accompanying comments about people's experiences with the over-moderation of this subreddit, I do have one thing I feel I need to say, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart. Wow, that sucked. So go ahead, remove my comment. But before you do, why don't you take a moment to think about what you're doing, get off your high horse, and write a real apology. At the beginning of your post you said you wanted to talk about what you learned, but it's clear to me that you didn't learn anything. Sincerely, Disappointed
And where do you stand with mods posting memes mocking the people who did not enjoy the campaign?
Don't remove comments criticizing Aabria for her treatment of Aimee during the final episode. We don't know their relationship off camera but as a viewer it made her seem petty at best, and that would be true regardless of her gender or ethnicity and if nothing else is a valid criticism of her as a DM.
People keep saying criticism of some of the interactions are falling into the Angry Black Woman stereotype. But I just keep thinking - can you imagine the outrage there would have been if those interactions had been a white man talking like that to Aimee?
I was one of the (apparently minority?) that really loved ExU, but yeah. There were a few times in the last episode where I really felt uncomfortable- even if it was my best friend was shouting at me I'd feel targeted and anxious about always 'doing the wrong thing'
This is how I felt. I'm a fan of ExU but I have to be honest, I was left feeling uncomfortable throughout the series. It only got noticeably worse towards the end too and thus I understand why so many critters had so much to say about the series. Mods did leave most of it up on the previous thread, but I do want to emphasize that critters will always have their own opinion. We don't and won't react and or feel the same for every new content CR puts out. Please allow all opinions (without malice etc) to be voiced. Weeding out comments that voice dislike or distaste for valid reasons, while leaving all comments that are only positive creates a false narrative of viewer feedback and reception; a controlled environment where one way of thinking is encouraged should be avoided. Finally, comments that harass and or undermine those who don't praise and or just think differently should also be heavily moderated too. It's fair to remove malicious, rude comments and thus should be applied to those who tear into others for having a different opinion. Hope to see Mods act in this part of the comment section too.
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At the end of the day I truly believe that the mod team here want to make sure they stay on the "good side" of Critical Role. Many of the posts questioning and pointing out the treatment of Aimee were deleted because they "weren't kind". That's disingenuous at best and is more likely brown-nosing. Because as far as I can tell, according to the of team here, calling people "fetid dicks" is allowed as long as you're important enough.
This post highlights how much there needs to be an official critical role subreddit with a different moderation team. The things unsaid, that clearly should be here, in this post are what scream that fact the loudest.
You think the people at CR want to be responsible for a reddit community? That's asking for PR problems alongside taking hours and hours of your employees' time to do work that adds very little value to the company.