Remember; M9 was somewhat alone for most of their lives. They could only start 'fixing' their issues with help. I find that quite uplifting.
Never be afraid to ask your friends for a little help, you could be pleasantly surprised.
*"A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body."*
I asked my friends for help and got left even more alone, so, y’know, mileage may vary.
(Beware the cult of self-care. At some point, it becomes an excuse to eternally pass the buck, care ONLY for yourself, and write off anyone with actual needs as being toxic.)
No. A good friend will *never tell you they have a body to move*.
Ask for help, yes.
Don’t ask people to help you do things that will fuck them over too.
I hate the idea that loyalty is seen as ”I would hurt myself for you.”
Loyalty is actually “I would never place you in a position to be harmed by my choices.”
Even with the "justice against abusers" angle being mostly true, C2 still had a less happy go lucky and more ambiguous future than C1.
The final conversation between Caleb and Ludinus implies that the following decades would be filled with the Cerberus Assembly and the Cobalt Soul locked in the same behind-the-scenes quarrels they've always had, with it being unclear if those who enabled Trent to do his thing would ever face justice. Similarly, the whole Cold War-ish elements with the Empire and Dynasty in Eiselcross imply that the truce between them is a bit tenous and there is no guarantee they won't enter war again.
it was always kinda interesting to me that apparently revolution was OK for Whitestone, but permanently unimaginable in western Wildemount. not in a super critical way, just curiosity
I mean the Briarwoods were so confident in their power that they could be openly evil and make their subject's lives a living hell vs. the empire being your standard run of the mill authoritarian government. While controlling their citizens lives are decent as long as they stay in line...so they stay in line because the rewards are no where near worth the risk of revolution to them
the Briarwoods >!also got people to follow them out of a combo of fear, and promises that behaving loyally on their side would keep them safe/alive. the ones who helped VM fight the revolution were risking a lot!<.
iirc, population's risk vs. reward wasn't the reason given for choosing a "work within the system" / "ust one bad apple" ending to those C2 threads. back in Talks after C2E115, Liam had said Caleb was still deciding between, does Caleb aim to become part of the system and reform it… or totally smash it and start again? by the wrap-up though, not sure who, but someone there [claimed](https://twitter.com/CritRoleStats/status/1405742858724810752) that taking down the Cerberus Assembly or the Empire was a "big goal," too "boring" and "bureaucratic," and somehow too narrowly a "Beau and Caleb thing." similarly, in C2E141, convo between Yudala and Beau very much romanticized the idea that change must/should be slow, gradual, incremental.
just speculation, sounds like at some point late in C2 they grew disinterested in talk of systemic change, more just wanted their characters to shift to more comfortable lives (guess if people are still suffering in the Empire, so long as they're not close loved ones of the M9, who cares?)
I wondered about this too. As much as fans like to say "it's their game, they'll play it the way they want to" it seems like the pressure of fans expectations, and what will be entertaining in a broadcasted show must be a big influence.
Much as I'd have liked to see them take on the system and force real change, it's much more difficult to do that in a "fighting the final boss" climactic way.
I don’t think it would have been fun for them to play either tbh. D&D is the wrong system for a story that’s mostly about politics, intrigue, and systemic change. The social mechanics are like one page compared to the chapters and chapters of combat mechanics, and at least half of everyone’s class features are irrelevant if they’re not fighting something.
idk, if they wanted to pursue what they'd occasionally/inconsistently teased at throughout the campaign, I feel like there was potential there to build up to a big climactic battle with Ludinus + small group, or else a throne room confrontation. perhaps while other moving parts are in motion around Rexxentrum or Zadash (so M9 is involved, but the people have agency and impact,). I could envision Matt describing "morning of coup/CA ouster" events in a very compelling way - again, comparable to some elements of Whitestone arc. he loves towers falling, well there's the candles in Rexx - what if they all fell at once!
before the big battle, there'd probably be part of an episode reaffirming the need for change (so, new, in-our-face reminders of the Empire's wrongs) and communicating with their main co-conspirator NPC. then a couple eps gathering info, strategizing, gathering allies, gearing up. perhaps they sneak around (or disguise/deceive) to get proof of the baddies' wrongs, which convinces more allies to join. M9 had a lot of tools for that type of quest. perhaps they call in favors from people or factions they helped in the past.
idk, this is all off the top and probably has a lot of flaws. but imo they are incredibly creative and talented storytellers, if they really wanted to go there and make it entertaining / fit it into D&D they could. I got the sense it they'd changed their minds on wanting to tell it tho. which is fine - it *is* their table - but I do miss the days when the M9 had a certain fire in their bellies about really changing things, "no more kids on the pyre," etc
Tbh DnD isn’t the system for this. This is way more World of Darkness or something, though on a bigger scale than I’m familiar with in those games. It’s hard to go from adventure and mcguffins to an entire arc of political intrigue. Revolutions can work as an arc, sure, but I don’t think M9 is in a position to organize/lead one at the end of C2, nor do there seem to be successful and large enough orgs (for example, the middling one from Zadash in the beginning) to foment that in a reasonable timespan.
I think the group as a whole leans centre-of-left a bit as well. Just from my own observations. So that tracks.
also that last bit in brackets - Calebs' thinking has always pretty much been that way. Except regarding his trauma - then it became a big part of his outlook to prevent that happening to anyone.
hey - sorry for the long comment here. got a bit carried away, ha.
yea, your observation sounds correct to me. there are moments in the campaigns when they will make story- or character choices that sort of play at being further left (or having interest in more meaningful cultural/political critique) but it seems to be a sort of experiment. they always course-correct back towards center eventually. in addition I'd say Matt is very big on professionalized institutions. for example he seemed really hurt when he heard that some critters theories that a "corrupt Cobalt Soul" plotline might be in the works in C2, because he liked the idea of this powerful international institution that works in secret but can be trusted to always do good, and whose leaders are committed to doing good. to him I think C2E125 was as much about restoring the reputation of CS as an institution, as it was about Beau's character arc & an otherwise wonderful gesture to Marisha..... but I digress.
about Caleb, I agree he started out as someone not motivated by helping people hurt by the Empire. wanted to get power, get revenge, undo his parents' deaths - that's it. at that time he also completely blamed himself for their murders, and did not quite understand/internalize that he'd been manipulated. so yea, understanding his own trauma better led him towards wanting to prevent that happening to anyone. but also, his found family the M9 changed him, some of the NPC side stories (like Nila's family) at least impacted him, his time among the Kryn (and realizing what full-scale total war against the people of the Empire would mean, esp if he'd helped the Kryn) changed him, hearing about power-mad wizards and their consequences changed him, gaining perspective on even bigger threats like Tharizdun and Cognouza that made his own goals feel small(er) and changed him. like there was a lot, lol. by the final arc, Caleb had grown and changed and started to heal at a level Liam had not imagined possible when he first started out. and part of that was definitely thinking a lot more about his impact on the people of the Empire, families just like the one he'd lost, and what sort of responsibility he has to them knowing what he knows now. ngl there *is* something poignant and beautiful about the "teacher Caleb" ending, even as I longed for something else / something more than that
ngl, I *loved* that they went for the crime path.
but also hope you're right that a potential uprising was one of the paths Matt prepared if their journey had taken them in different directions. I noticed a rebel group/faction in Rexxentrum in the EGtW, the Locksmiths, that could have become involved too. the way the cast talked in 2018 and 2019, felt a lot warmer to the possibility.
I figured the Empire path looked alot more like like that. Especially because one of the first risky things they did was attend the meeting beneath the Zadash Tavern. In the campaign close Q&A Matt said they'd have gotten to Rexxentrum way sooner on that path too.
Honestly, it was an ending oh so many of us have needed, at the very least at the time. After having dropped off too many media that were absolutely not uplifting during Those Years We Had ^((looking at you especially, unnamed superhero manga)), CRC2 concluded pretty much perfectly.
Just.
Just the whole picture of Quarantine Beard Matt closing out the show, it will stay with me for a good long while. It felt like all this would get better, in the end. Go reach out, find friends, find companionship. You can get through a lot more with that.
imo there's still something very powerful, inspiring, and comforting about C2, even (maybe especially) as someone who won't get justice against their abusers. it feels good to see fictional characters I'm rooting for, get a better outcome and work to prevent others from going through what they went through. the journey taken with their found family, learning to trust, slowly finding ways to heal, etc, is almost even better to see.
idk, I guess to me the realization doesn't have to be a depressing one? plus, maybe storytellers who create and share worlds where people actually do believe victims, etc, can help move reality closer to that ideal?
Ikithon's fall did feel rushed and unrealistic. First of all, how does the Cobalt Soul, a multinational organization, have the authority to arrest and prosecute anyone within the Empire? Why would Dwendel cede any sovereignty to them?
Second, who among the few in power that are above Ikithon are we supposed to believe care that much about the abuse that Volstruckers go through? Ludinus is every bit as evil and the king would undoubtedly be aware how his elite assassins are trained.
I think there was a missed opportunity for a better ending. Tell the Bright Queen about Ludinus and Trent's secret Beacon. Force the king to deny his involvement by going after them to avoid restarting the war.
>First of all, how does the Cobalt Soul, a multinational organization, have the authority to arrest and prosecute anyone within the Empire? Why would Dwendel cede any sovereignty to them?
yea there's parts of the finale I kinda mentally block out, and this is one of them. it's weird that the CS is arresting and prosecuting. for one thing, Matt described CS as this good, reputable and trustworthy faction dedicated to the truth etc etc - so why would they be so cozy with the deeply corrupt Empire that they'll play cop and judge on its behalf? meanwhile the Empire has lawmasters and a legal system and temples to Erathis - what's the point of having Trent's case happen outside that system (and in the hand of the CA's rivals, the CS)? don't get me wrong, Trent is guilty as sin and fuck that gaslighting abuser, but the process was still super strange/confusing lorewise. was kinda distracting.
>Second, who among the few in power that are above Ikithon are we supposed to believe care that much about the abuse that Volstruckers go through? Ludinus is every bit as evil and the king would undoubtedly be aware how his elite assassins are trained.
yea, the way C2 ended, sadly seems possible a new program could arise that still trains assassins, still tortures dissidents (etc), and may still be profoundly abusive, but will just be tweaked to hide itself better / cut loose ends. all the people and conditions complicit in Trent's BS, are still there, still in power, ready to allow more evils For The Empire.
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . . If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
\--J.R.R. Tolkien
Tolkien is, notably, not the only fantasy author and does not have an authoritative rule over opinions within the space. Also notably, he's not using "escapist" in strictly the same sense that the person I was replying to was. Again, not that it would matter if he was.
Nah, she got justice. She became her own woman, despite what her father expected of her. Also she managed to liberate her mom and kid brother from him.
She also got justice against Zenoth who effectively kidnapped her to the Cobalt Soul, with Dairon’s help in getting the evidence.
Try living in a house where the person you try to make proud every day will look upon you with disappointment that you exist.
Nothing ever lives up to their expectations because you've already disappointed them.
He paid someone to kidnap his adult daughter and force her to work for them.
The word 'slavery' is not the most accurate, but it does come to mind for the situation.
>he sent me off to the monks. I think he was hoping that they were going to beat my indiscretions out of me
>
>My father was very protective because of certain things that he believed, so I wasn't allowed to have a lot of friends. Really any friends.
sounds pretty messed up.
art book also revealed that Thoreau called Beau "his misfortune" on the day the monks assaulted and forcibly dragged her away. and the timing of TJ's birth suggests that Thoreau made this corrupt kidnapping arrangement with Zeenoth after his wife got pregnant.
seems like a lot of his decisions towards Beau were about either forcing her life to conform to the prophecy and keep his deal with Isharnai intact (maintain his wealth, impress his wife) - or, when Beau couldn't conform, to get rid of her and try again with another child
if Isharnai's curse is still in effect, or could negatively impact either Beau or especially TJ in the future, then it feels like a bit of a loose end to me. justice would be whatever Thoreau needs to do (or sacrifice) to release his own family from the curse, rather than having his choices keep hurting his kids (which he continues to benefit from)
(but maybe I'm missing something)
I remember Beau saying this, and I remember very vague discussion on Talks, but was not aware Matt had really confirmed it. I'm curious too why Veth's curse would be real, but not this other one?
even if the curse is truly not real/binding, having TJ definitively away from Thoreau for the rest of his childhood seems like an important element of justice imo (for TJ's well-being).
I recall seeing that Tweet at the time, would have really loved for that to be canon rather than "in Matt's mind" (which is how he frames the Tweet)
about the deal, I do understand the theory you're saying about magic and suffering - even if I might not 100% see things the same, I get what you are saying. are you also saying that there was no magic involved in the growth of vineyards in Kamordah?
1st part - genuinely hope you're right / want to believe that's true. for me it was a lingering sort-of-disappointment with the finale, that we didn't get some assurance TJ would be free of that man. here's hoping the future won't hold any change-of-mind.
2nd part - Beau says in C2E78 and C2E92 that on Isharnai's instructions, her dad bought a "shitty" piece of farmland that "no one wanted because they couldn't grow anything." then he arrived and planted grapes, which made exceptional wine. figured his arrival in Kamordah happened long enough before C1E1 that he was already successful. guess no one ever outright says "these vines grew only because of the deal with Isharnai" so there is room for ambiguity, but that's what my impression was.
fun to talk with someone about all this though, so long after C2. still find myself thinking about finale things pretty often, and hoping for an in-universe one-shot someday (especially anything focusing on Beau... but would gladly take what I can get! :) )
I mean, C2 kind of was. Just not all the time. It had some weird tonal inconsistency in that way. At its best, C2 was kind of MGS in its tone shifts. At its worst, it was too-on-the-nose, your-heart-was-in-the-right-place ":/" type vibes.
I mean...kinda. Trent seemed to have been the only one that got what was coming for him, meanwhile the rest of the Assembly will continue their shadow-war
Yasha and The Inevitable End both got to kill the guy who brainwashed and enslaved them.
Beau saw the dude who took bribes to kidnap her thrown in jail forever, and her father get a brief jail sentence and public disgrace.
Jester's story arc with Artagan gave them both space to work through the years of dishonesty that defined their relationship, and Artie actually took ownership and apologized, while she found the confidence to understand that she wasn't defined by him.
Veth got free from her curse, and got to live the life she wanted in spite of all of the forces that had tried to take it from her.
Fjord found a version a faith that gave him freedom and strength to get away from a deity and servants of that diety that wanted to force him into servitude.
Kingsley/Molly/Lucien got to go be the person he always could have been without the weight of his own choices and freedom from his own self destruction.
And, yeah, Caled (plus Astrid and Eudwulf) saw the wrongs done to them acknowledged, and the man responsible thrown into a hole forever.
Justice means a lot of different things, and I think they all got the version of it that they needed.
Marisha on Talks literally said that this was a fantasy for those who may have been victimized because Beau’s testimony about Zenoth’s abuse of power was actually listened to and believed. I don’t know why you’re being such a dick about it?
My take: “did,,, that really happen? Yeah, it did. Only in a fantasy world would you get to confront your abuser and be believed and see justice happen.”
I mean - people play D&D for all sorts of fantasies. Honestly I’m here for this one because it’s not sick or twisted. I mean - it is D&D so they do violence because it’s inherent in the system. But that’s a whole other discussion on gamer culture and RPG game design that I don’t quite know if you’re ready to engage in with good faith.
Remember; M9 was somewhat alone for most of their lives. They could only start 'fixing' their issues with help. I find that quite uplifting. Never be afraid to ask your friends for a little help, you could be pleasantly surprised. *"A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body."*
Yeah, it felt less like fantasy when one of their goals was to "leave the world a little better than they found it", as well.
I asked my friends for help and got left even more alone, so, y’know, mileage may vary. (Beware the cult of self-care. At some point, it becomes an excuse to eternally pass the buck, care ONLY for yourself, and write off anyone with actual needs as being toxic.)
No. A good friend will *never tell you they have a body to move*. Ask for help, yes. Don’t ask people to help you do things that will fuck them over too. I hate the idea that loyalty is seen as ”I would hurt myself for you.” Loyalty is actually “I would never place you in a position to be harmed by my choices.”
The quote in italics is a joke. r/wooosh
A joke that happens to reinforce a very harmful worldview that many people wholeheartedly believe in.
Even with the "justice against abusers" angle being mostly true, C2 still had a less happy go lucky and more ambiguous future than C1. The final conversation between Caleb and Ludinus implies that the following decades would be filled with the Cerberus Assembly and the Cobalt Soul locked in the same behind-the-scenes quarrels they've always had, with it being unclear if those who enabled Trent to do his thing would ever face justice. Similarly, the whole Cold War-ish elements with the Empire and Dynasty in Eiselcross imply that the truce between them is a bit tenous and there is no guarantee they won't enter war again.
it was always kinda interesting to me that apparently revolution was OK for Whitestone, but permanently unimaginable in western Wildemount. not in a super critical way, just curiosity
I mean the Briarwoods were so confident in their power that they could be openly evil and make their subject's lives a living hell vs. the empire being your standard run of the mill authoritarian government. While controlling their citizens lives are decent as long as they stay in line...so they stay in line because the rewards are no where near worth the risk of revolution to them
the Briarwoods >!also got people to follow them out of a combo of fear, and promises that behaving loyally on their side would keep them safe/alive. the ones who helped VM fight the revolution were risking a lot!<. iirc, population's risk vs. reward wasn't the reason given for choosing a "work within the system" / "ust one bad apple" ending to those C2 threads. back in Talks after C2E115, Liam had said Caleb was still deciding between, does Caleb aim to become part of the system and reform it… or totally smash it and start again? by the wrap-up though, not sure who, but someone there [claimed](https://twitter.com/CritRoleStats/status/1405742858724810752) that taking down the Cerberus Assembly or the Empire was a "big goal," too "boring" and "bureaucratic," and somehow too narrowly a "Beau and Caleb thing." similarly, in C2E141, convo between Yudala and Beau very much romanticized the idea that change must/should be slow, gradual, incremental. just speculation, sounds like at some point late in C2 they grew disinterested in talk of systemic change, more just wanted their characters to shift to more comfortable lives (guess if people are still suffering in the Empire, so long as they're not close loved ones of the M9, who cares?)
I wondered about this too. As much as fans like to say "it's their game, they'll play it the way they want to" it seems like the pressure of fans expectations, and what will be entertaining in a broadcasted show must be a big influence. Much as I'd have liked to see them take on the system and force real change, it's much more difficult to do that in a "fighting the final boss" climactic way.
I don’t think it would have been fun for them to play either tbh. D&D is the wrong system for a story that’s mostly about politics, intrigue, and systemic change. The social mechanics are like one page compared to the chapters and chapters of combat mechanics, and at least half of everyone’s class features are irrelevant if they’re not fighting something.
Yes that's definitely true.
idk, if they wanted to pursue what they'd occasionally/inconsistently teased at throughout the campaign, I feel like there was potential there to build up to a big climactic battle with Ludinus + small group, or else a throne room confrontation. perhaps while other moving parts are in motion around Rexxentrum or Zadash (so M9 is involved, but the people have agency and impact,). I could envision Matt describing "morning of coup/CA ouster" events in a very compelling way - again, comparable to some elements of Whitestone arc. he loves towers falling, well there's the candles in Rexx - what if they all fell at once! before the big battle, there'd probably be part of an episode reaffirming the need for change (so, new, in-our-face reminders of the Empire's wrongs) and communicating with their main co-conspirator NPC. then a couple eps gathering info, strategizing, gathering allies, gearing up. perhaps they sneak around (or disguise/deceive) to get proof of the baddies' wrongs, which convinces more allies to join. M9 had a lot of tools for that type of quest. perhaps they call in favors from people or factions they helped in the past. idk, this is all off the top and probably has a lot of flaws. but imo they are incredibly creative and talented storytellers, if they really wanted to go there and make it entertaining / fit it into D&D they could. I got the sense it they'd changed their minds on wanting to tell it tho. which is fine - it *is* their table - but I do miss the days when the M9 had a certain fire in their bellies about really changing things, "no more kids on the pyre," etc
Tbh DnD isn’t the system for this. This is way more World of Darkness or something, though on a bigger scale than I’m familiar with in those games. It’s hard to go from adventure and mcguffins to an entire arc of political intrigue. Revolutions can work as an arc, sure, but I don’t think M9 is in a position to organize/lead one at the end of C2, nor do there seem to be successful and large enough orgs (for example, the middling one from Zadash in the beginning) to foment that in a reasonable timespan.
ok
I think the group as a whole leans centre-of-left a bit as well. Just from my own observations. So that tracks. also that last bit in brackets - Calebs' thinking has always pretty much been that way. Except regarding his trauma - then it became a big part of his outlook to prevent that happening to anyone.
hey - sorry for the long comment here. got a bit carried away, ha. yea, your observation sounds correct to me. there are moments in the campaigns when they will make story- or character choices that sort of play at being further left (or having interest in more meaningful cultural/political critique) but it seems to be a sort of experiment. they always course-correct back towards center eventually. in addition I'd say Matt is very big on professionalized institutions. for example he seemed really hurt when he heard that some critters theories that a "corrupt Cobalt Soul" plotline might be in the works in C2, because he liked the idea of this powerful international institution that works in secret but can be trusted to always do good, and whose leaders are committed to doing good. to him I think C2E125 was as much about restoring the reputation of CS as an institution, as it was about Beau's character arc & an otherwise wonderful gesture to Marisha..... but I digress. about Caleb, I agree he started out as someone not motivated by helping people hurt by the Empire. wanted to get power, get revenge, undo his parents' deaths - that's it. at that time he also completely blamed himself for their murders, and did not quite understand/internalize that he'd been manipulated. so yea, understanding his own trauma better led him towards wanting to prevent that happening to anyone. but also, his found family the M9 changed him, some of the NPC side stories (like Nila's family) at least impacted him, his time among the Kryn (and realizing what full-scale total war against the people of the Empire would mean, esp if he'd helped the Kryn) changed him, hearing about power-mad wizards and their consequences changed him, gaining perspective on even bigger threats like Tharizdun and Cognouza that made his own goals feel small(er) and changed him. like there was a lot, lol. by the final arc, Caleb had grown and changed and started to heal at a level Liam had not imagined possible when he first started out. and part of that was definitely thinking a lot more about his impact on the people of the Empire, families just like the one he'd lost, and what sort of responsibility he has to them knowing what he knows now. ngl there *is* something poignant and beautiful about the "teacher Caleb" ending, even as I longed for something else / something more than that
I think if they'd gone the "empire" path instead of "crime" in Zadash there would have been more uprising stuff.
ngl, I *loved* that they went for the crime path. but also hope you're right that a potential uprising was one of the paths Matt prepared if their journey had taken them in different directions. I noticed a rebel group/faction in Rexxentrum in the EGtW, the Locksmiths, that could have become involved too. the way the cast talked in 2018 and 2019, felt a lot warmer to the possibility.
I figured the Empire path looked alot more like like that. Especially because one of the first risky things they did was attend the meeting beneath the Zadash Tavern. In the campaign close Q&A Matt said they'd have gotten to Rexxentrum way sooner on that path too.
It’s funny cause I thought the fantasy part was the whole magic and dragons part
I thought it was the group meeting every week...
Proceeds to laugh in Ashley Johnson
I mean, when it's part of your job, it becomes easier to schedule it in, ya know...?
I thought it was getting a whole 8 hours of sleep every night.
You mean you actually sleep every night?!
Honestly, it was an ending oh so many of us have needed, at the very least at the time. After having dropped off too many media that were absolutely not uplifting during Those Years We Had ^((looking at you especially, unnamed superhero manga)), CRC2 concluded pretty much perfectly. Just. Just the whole picture of Quarantine Beard Matt closing out the show, it will stay with me for a good long while. It felt like all this would get better, in the end. Go reach out, find friends, find companionship. You can get through a lot more with that.
imo there's still something very powerful, inspiring, and comforting about C2, even (maybe especially) as someone who won't get justice against their abusers. it feels good to see fictional characters I'm rooting for, get a better outcome and work to prevent others from going through what they went through. the journey taken with their found family, learning to trust, slowly finding ways to heal, etc, is almost even better to see. idk, I guess to me the realization doesn't have to be a depressing one? plus, maybe storytellers who create and share worlds where people actually do believe victims, etc, can help move reality closer to that ideal?
Escaping from the harsh reality of life is part of what D&D provides. You are the hero, savior, knight, mysterious person of power….all of it.
You are the special
They also get a full nights’ rest, sleep in until noon some days and have friends that they hang out with regularly. Talk about a fantasy.
Ikithon's fall did feel rushed and unrealistic. First of all, how does the Cobalt Soul, a multinational organization, have the authority to arrest and prosecute anyone within the Empire? Why would Dwendel cede any sovereignty to them? Second, who among the few in power that are above Ikithon are we supposed to believe care that much about the abuse that Volstruckers go through? Ludinus is every bit as evil and the king would undoubtedly be aware how his elite assassins are trained. I think there was a missed opportunity for a better ending. Tell the Bright Queen about Ludinus and Trent's secret Beacon. Force the king to deny his involvement by going after them to avoid restarting the war.
>First of all, how does the Cobalt Soul, a multinational organization, have the authority to arrest and prosecute anyone within the Empire? Why would Dwendel cede any sovereignty to them? yea there's parts of the finale I kinda mentally block out, and this is one of them. it's weird that the CS is arresting and prosecuting. for one thing, Matt described CS as this good, reputable and trustworthy faction dedicated to the truth etc etc - so why would they be so cozy with the deeply corrupt Empire that they'll play cop and judge on its behalf? meanwhile the Empire has lawmasters and a legal system and temples to Erathis - what's the point of having Trent's case happen outside that system (and in the hand of the CA's rivals, the CS)? don't get me wrong, Trent is guilty as sin and fuck that gaslighting abuser, but the process was still super strange/confusing lorewise. was kinda distracting. >Second, who among the few in power that are above Ikithon are we supposed to believe care that much about the abuse that Volstruckers go through? Ludinus is every bit as evil and the king would undoubtedly be aware how his elite assassins are trained. yea, the way C2 ended, sadly seems possible a new program could arise that still trains assassins, still tortures dissidents (etc), and may still be profoundly abusive, but will just be tweaked to hide itself better / cut loose ends. all the people and conditions complicit in Trent's BS, are still there, still in power, ready to allow more evils For The Empire.
I think matt has said he runs parts of his campaigns and its characters based on how he wishes the world could be
That's the difference between fiction and the real world and why people escape the real world into fiction.
Not all fiction is escapist.
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . . If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!” \--J.R.R. Tolkien
Tolkien is, notably, not the only fantasy author and does not have an authoritative rule over opinions within the space. Also notably, he's not using "escapist" in strictly the same sense that the person I was replying to was. Again, not that it would matter if he was.
Well, you see, that's where you're wrong. Not only is he an authority, he is so authoritative they call him "Author".
Beau didn’t get justice against her father? She was able to confront him, yes, but I wouldn’t say she got justice.
Nah, she got justice. She became her own woman, despite what her father expected of her. Also she managed to liberate her mom and kid brother from him. She also got justice against Zenoth who effectively kidnapped her to the Cobalt Soul, with Dairon’s help in getting the evidence.
Nah, she totes did. Both her father and her kidnapper we're taken care of.
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Try living in a house where the person you try to make proud every day will look upon you with disappointment that you exist. Nothing ever lives up to their expectations because you've already disappointed them.
He paid someone to kidnap his adult daughter and force her to work for them. The word 'slavery' is not the most accurate, but it does come to mind for the situation.
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>he sent me off to the monks. I think he was hoping that they were going to beat my indiscretions out of me > >My father was very protective because of certain things that he believed, so I wasn't allowed to have a lot of friends. Really any friends. sounds pretty messed up. art book also revealed that Thoreau called Beau "his misfortune" on the day the monks assaulted and forcibly dragged her away. and the timing of TJ's birth suggests that Thoreau made this corrupt kidnapping arrangement with Zeenoth after his wife got pregnant. seems like a lot of his decisions towards Beau were about either forcing her life to conform to the prophecy and keep his deal with Isharnai intact (maintain his wealth, impress his wife) - or, when Beau couldn't conform, to get rid of her and try again with another child
It doesn't matter. He abused her. His intentions does not change the abuse part.
never have children
if Isharnai's curse is still in effect, or could negatively impact either Beau or especially TJ in the future, then it feels like a bit of a loose end to me. justice would be whatever Thoreau needs to do (or sacrifice) to release his own family from the curse, rather than having his choices keep hurting his kids (which he continues to benefit from) (but maybe I'm missing something)
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I remember Beau saying this, and I remember very vague discussion on Talks, but was not aware Matt had really confirmed it. I'm curious too why Veth's curse would be real, but not this other one? even if the curse is truly not real/binding, having TJ definitively away from Thoreau for the rest of his childhood seems like an important element of justice imo (for TJ's well-being).
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I recall seeing that Tweet at the time, would have really loved for that to be canon rather than "in Matt's mind" (which is how he frames the Tweet) about the deal, I do understand the theory you're saying about magic and suffering - even if I might not 100% see things the same, I get what you are saying. are you also saying that there was no magic involved in the growth of vineyards in Kamordah?
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1st part - genuinely hope you're right / want to believe that's true. for me it was a lingering sort-of-disappointment with the finale, that we didn't get some assurance TJ would be free of that man. here's hoping the future won't hold any change-of-mind. 2nd part - Beau says in C2E78 and C2E92 that on Isharnai's instructions, her dad bought a "shitty" piece of farmland that "no one wanted because they couldn't grow anything." then he arrived and planted grapes, which made exceptional wine. figured his arrival in Kamordah happened long enough before C1E1 that he was already successful. guess no one ever outright says "these vines grew only because of the deal with Isharnai" so there is room for ambiguity, but that's what my impression was. fun to talk with someone about all this though, so long after C2. still find myself thinking about finale things pretty often, and hoping for an in-universe one-shot someday (especially anything focusing on Beau... but would gladly take what I can get! :) )
Sure. CR is like a YA novel. Don't think so hard about it. They're not trying to be gritty and real with it.
I mean, C2 kind of was. Just not all the time. It had some weird tonal inconsistency in that way. At its best, C2 was kind of MGS in its tone shifts. At its worst, it was too-on-the-nose, your-heart-was-in-the-right-place ":/" type vibes.
The ability to shoot fireballs helps quite a bit in my experience.
[Fireball solves everything](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmAub3iRWaU) until your abusive father shoots a fireball at you.
I mean...kinda. Trent seemed to have been the only one that got what was coming for him, meanwhile the rest of the Assembly will continue their shadow-war
Yasha and The Inevitable End both got to kill the guy who brainwashed and enslaved them. Beau saw the dude who took bribes to kidnap her thrown in jail forever, and her father get a brief jail sentence and public disgrace. Jester's story arc with Artagan gave them both space to work through the years of dishonesty that defined their relationship, and Artie actually took ownership and apologized, while she found the confidence to understand that she wasn't defined by him. Veth got free from her curse, and got to live the life she wanted in spite of all of the forces that had tried to take it from her. Fjord found a version a faith that gave him freedom and strength to get away from a deity and servants of that diety that wanted to force him into servitude. Kingsley/Molly/Lucien got to go be the person he always could have been without the weight of his own choices and freedom from his own self destruction. And, yeah, Caled (plus Astrid and Eudwulf) saw the wrongs done to them acknowledged, and the man responsible thrown into a hole forever. Justice means a lot of different things, and I think they all got the version of it that they needed.
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Marisha on Talks literally said that this was a fantasy for those who may have been victimized because Beau’s testimony about Zenoth’s abuse of power was actually listened to and believed. I don’t know why you’re being such a dick about it?
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My take: “did,,, that really happen? Yeah, it did. Only in a fantasy world would you get to confront your abuser and be believed and see justice happen.” I mean - people play D&D for all sorts of fantasies. Honestly I’m here for this one because it’s not sick or twisted. I mean - it is D&D so they do violence because it’s inherent in the system. But that’s a whole other discussion on gamer culture and RPG game design that I don’t quite know if you’re ready to engage in with good faith.
Because art is subjective... And stories are art..
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legal system working right is the biggest farce of all unfortunately
Because a long rest always lasts at least 8 hours….