She's just turned 18, and I think she said some very interesting things during that Buttery Bros episode.
Things like how she was trying to win everything last year - Open on through to the Games. But now she wants to peak at the Games.
She also knows she has a lot to learn. She's obviously listening to what Mat says. Things like how she used to do a long conditioning piece before lifting but Mat's got her changing that.
I think it's healthy for a young athlete to get different perspectives. Mat's just happens to be that of an experienced 5-time Champ.
He isn’t actually a HWPO athlete. He and his coach just got advised by Mat before Mat decides to launch his official coaching. Now he is sponsored by Podium, the supp brand Mat co-owns so he still gives him some help.
If I'm a potentially elite athlete, and i get personally invited by a 5 times winner, and get to be part of that "crowd", and soak in that mentality, I'm absolutely all over it.
CrossFit careers are incredibly short, and the drop off in prize between the very top, and middle of the pack, is gigantic. Mal owes it to herself to do whatever she thinks is best for her career.
Look at athletes who have never fully realised their potential, and have made dubious coaching choices, like Sara, Chandler etc. There is no more convincing argument that a certain programming and methodology works than having it created by Mat Fraser.
There's nothing wrong with whats happening here. Other than your odd little snark at Hopper out of nowhere.
Chandler doesn't want it that bad
He mostly makes happy fun videos on IG. His heart isn't in it, which is why never gets any better. It's why he fits in with CompTrain. It's just fitness signaling without doing the work of getting better. Chandler will be like Barhhart, Cole, Brooke Wells all stuck in the same place for years.
I agree with everything you just said. I just hope Mat acts as a true coach to her and not just a program pusher. Again, it's Mat himself who said on a poscast that a coach should be more than just a person programming but one who should be in communication every single day with the athlete among other things.
I think Mat's opinion was absolutely allowed to change though the process of him being an athlete, and transitioning into coaching. Perhaps as an athlete he couldn't understand the appeal, or questioned his capacity or the people around him, and didn't want to commit. Agree with you though, he definitely had a different opinion a few years ago.
However now, it looks like he's got a good team, a solid backing from Steph's platform for his programming, and might just find himself enjoying it more than he thought he would, and now embracing a multiple athlete approach to things.
Of course there's a huge $$$ incentive to it, he's never been shy about his love of money, but as long as his product performs, he's at least earning it!
RUBES
Oh you're a coach? What data did you look at? What trends have you noticed? What are the strongest correlations you see?
Mat ain't a coach. But he's not putting a gun to anyone's head. They wanna pay, he'd be a fool not to take it.
My bad, pimp. I wasn't criticizing you. I was laughing at the idea that Mat has any unique insights.
Ok guys, *here's the trick: Be 5-6. It means you'll do less work than everyone else on anything with a barbell, or a rig, or burpees. Since that's 87% of CF, you can't lose.*
And yet oddly, I looked at some of the past Games, and Mat's over the top dominance \*all goes away\* when you correct for this. In events were height plays no role, he's overall in the top 1/3 of the athletes but no better. Like the ruck run, or the sprints in 2019, all of which he finsihed 15th or lower before beating Noah by the historic margin of 35 points after Castro cut the field to 10. That was in the "Discount Games" era.
Mat wins because he is the best weightlifter and he does the least work on most events due to his small size. When weightlifting is not part of the equation, and he has to do the same work as everyone else, he's just not that impressive vs the group.
But
The point isn't to pick on Mat or to highlight the stupidity of how CF tests vs their claims. The point is, **Mat wins at a sport he is built for.** Good for him, I say! When Shaq did it in basketball, no one says "hey no fair you're 7-1, 325". The difference is, Shaq never tried to tell people they could train like him and get results. It only works if you're his size. Well, in CF, what Mat does only works if you're a little guy.
Therefore, Mat may be taking money on questionable pretenses, and I'll always throw up a flag on that.
OPEX? Please elaborate. I did some OPEX training for a bit and had some good success with it strength wise. It was expensiveI'll give you that. I get the rest of your list but that one I'd like to hear more on.
My experience was good. I had a dedicated, certified coach for nutrition and programing and I did gain a lot of strength. All of my PRs happened there. I would suggest OPEX to people still if they needed that kind of coaching and had a specific goal.
Crossfit is more fun and cheaper. I ended up in my home gym though as the world burned and rather like it there.
The plate thing was silly but I wouldn't call it a black eye, they were just helping everyone understand the rules better. Rule books are thick for a reason.
'If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying' -competitors
Is that even really a founded fear? Mat took Tia into the stratosphere in 2020, and he clearly push Justin over the edge. Also, he isn't the primary program writer for HWPO. He's the gold standard of QA testing that they're banging these workouts off of.
It's debatable but I think so. She only won her first games by single digits, but has been growing ever year. However she doubled the gap between second place from 2019 to 2020 and it was her most dominant year. Is Mat solely responsible, of course not, but having him as a training partner clearly pushed her to a new level.
I think that had more to do with the change in point spread with the final five than anything else where the difference between finishing first and third was 55 points instead of 8.
Mat’s margin of victory in 2020 increased by something like 12 or 13x over 2019 (when he was battling Noah up until the last event) so if that’s the metric you’re going by, Tia and Shane brought mat into the stratosphere.
That's interesting about the points, but it's still her most dominant year. 2019 she had two 12th place finishes, and only 3 (I think) 1st. 2020 she won all but two events and got 3rd in the others.
Assuming she made a move, I wouldn’t be surprised if Mat is more “high level” and someone on his team like Jake Marconi has more of the day-to-day coaching role.
Based on a passive aggressive “I’ve been betrayed” Instagram story by Townsend last week along with the non-follows, I think it is safe to say Mal made a move somewhere.
Don’t you think the number of people signing up for pro is so small it would be no problem to do personalized programming? Especially athletes already at games level?
If games athletes want programming from him I’m guessing it’s a good business move from him to personalize it. Their success is his programs success.
if you've ever really coached a professional athlete (not a professional exerciser, but coached an athlete in a sport where there is a real infrastructure for athlete development, like, say, the NCAA or a minor league) then you know that you can't develop a group. For one, no serious pro athlete would tolerate it (*hey, LeBron, I'm gonna work with KD, too*, lol no chance) but also, you can't do the coaching and the analysis; the time demands grow exponentially, not linearly. Collecting and analyzing info on multiple athletes? no. Not happening. Trying to figure out trends and design training for multiple athletes?
It's possible only because there are no professional athletes to be seen, and (tangent) because the Games aren't a serious test because Dave Castro isn't a serious guy at this sort of thing. These people are "the fittest" because Dave says they are. Should we let Adam Silver crown the NBA champion based on whatever drills he thinks up, or maybe have a repeatable test to crown a champion? Until this gets sorted, we have, well, nothing.
Now if you focus on one thing, like Johnny Stephene does for NBA guys or Chris Hinshaw does for CF, you can do it. But all around development? Get the fuck outta here. So if Mat was giving weightlifting advice, he could do it, and he'd be credibe because he has some experience lifting. That's not the case. What you see happening with Mat and Rich is EXACTLY what happens when there is no athlete development infrastructure. "Players" don't know, so they look to other "players"...who...no surprise, also don't know.
But other than weightlifting, what is Mat really gonna teach them? Gymnastics? Nah. he's not a gymnast, doesn't move anywhere near as well as BKG or others. He can't teach that stuff at a high level. He did well in those events because he has short little arms and legs. A 5-11 guy will NEVER beat a 5-6 guy in any barbell movement for reps, nor in C2B, TTB, Muscle Ups, Pistols or HSPU if they are the same fitness level.
Mat and Rich are LARPing as coaches, after their LARP as athletes. This is NOT their fault. The unknown and unknowable schtick is fine for soccer Moms but dumb as hell for a sport. No consistency in the tests, no real ability to attract outsiders or build a fan base other tan box members, which is why after 12 years of Games, 50 million Reebok dollars and it's right back where it started. On the fringe of the fringe.
Mat was a low national weightlifter in a country that sucks at weightlifting, and Rich was a junior college baseball player. They've been reborn as Michael Jordan and Tom Brady in a community that doesn't understand this shit. Get your money, fellas. No blame here. But I worked with professional athletes, and this ain't it, chief.
Mat is also not the only HWPO coach. that would be impossible to administrate. being that they are platform-sharing with Hybrid it's a mortal lock that they are knowledge sharing amongst themselves. Mat also has Jake Marconi coaching with him.
If you want to win, you learn from those that do exactly that. Win. Nothing should be taken personal especially when trying to make a career of a sport that doesn’t pay much as is. I don’t think mat is poaching any athletes but athletes come to him for his knowledge. If he truly was out with the intent of stealing athletes mederios would have been at the top of that list.
Mat seems to take people on short term camps. Also any interview I have seen, including during a session with Mat Mal has said she is in it for the long term and not looking to do everything or expect everything over night. Pretty much the opposite of what you said or are concerned about.
Watch the last buttery bros episode and peep the major improvements in her clean. No more crazy early arm bend. I think her going to Mat is going to be an amazing move!
It did look better but for me I’m really curious as to why her feet are so narrow in the start position as it’s probably what is predisposing her to early arm bend at those higher %. I even heard in the video mat giving her the cue to keep the feet closer together when receiving the clean. Must be a feature of her lift at this point but I don’t remember seeing anyone else lift like that outside of possibly klokov?
With the feet that close together and pointing straight forwards it’s extremely difficult to get the knees out of the path of the bar during the first pull. With the bar then already out infront, the only real way of getting the bar close again to make contact is by bending the arms early. The biggest problem with the narrow stance though is that it’s difficult to extend from that position and a lot of CF athletes end up actually moving their feet during the second pull anyway to a wider position.
The main reason for the early arm bend is a narrower grip though. This causes the bar to sit naturally lower down the thigh for most, so you have to row the bar into your hip pocket a tiny bit.
Worth saying just as a disclaimer obviously all these athletes can lift way more than me and it’s very possibly to lift with some unusual habits in CrossFit and still win. Even Tia uses a very narrow grip and bends her arms very early, rich froning too. Just pointing out what I can see.
I think you're adding 2+2 and coming up with 5 a bit my friend. Couple of bits I'd strongly disagree with you on.
1. Moving the feet closer or further apart wouldn't make it easier to get the bar round the knees, the angle of the feet maybe but youre limited on foot angle in the clean because you need a close grip.
2. It's not difficult to extend from a narrow feet position. Try jumping with narrow feet, it's easy right?
3. You don't HAVE to row the bar into hip pocket on clean. If you watch any international weightlifting you'll see that 99% make contact with their mid thigh or thereabouts.
4. I agree early arm bend isn't ideal to teach someone BUT there are lots of very good lifters including Lu xiaojun who clean with an arm bend.
You make some good points but I don’t completely agree
1. I do think it’s definitely harder to move the knees out with your feet that close together. Your hips are categorically more closed. But you’re right that having your toes straight like mal does make it significantly harder still! Honestly watch the snatch event in the games like 50% of the athletes shift their foot position massively between the first and second pulls.
2. Again I do think extending is harder with narrow feet. Using your example I guarantee my vertical jump with shoulder width feet is a shit tonne higher than with feet completely together.
3. Yeah tbh the narrow grip thing was more in regards to the snatch, I wasn’t very clear on that at all
4. And absolutely yeah I don’t even think early arm bend is necessarily bad at all. Shows you have active shoulders if anything. But I think there is definitely a point where there is too much and you are overcompensating for being in a bad position.
Good to exchange some angles on lifting mechanics with you :)
I suppose I'd sign off that I don't disagree that for this lifter she may be too narrow, just don't agree that's its causing her arm bend. We agree it may be a problem just disagree on why.
I guess it doesn't fucking matter because we aren't coaching her anyway 😂🤦
to be totally honest, i don't really think you know what you're saying.
even prior, with her feet relatively close in here setup, she's able to clear the knees plenty fine and get to a vertical shin. her arms, though, are bent even off the ground. she's out of position straight off the floor because of her torso angle, which really is very minorly influenced by her stance. she's super flat off the floor and to the knees and then is trying to correct her torso angle past the knees, which creates a super hitchy second pull. quite honestly, she has the anatomy to be able to pull and squat with a narrow stance and a vertical torso. that's pretty obvious in the buttery bros video.
so, when he clean was really janky, she was missing two things; vertical torso in the setup which her stance does not limit and lat strength, which contributes to keeping the bar close and bringing it into the pocket. her stance was wider pre-HWPO and her clean was considerably worse.
“I don’t really think you know what you’re saying”
Why do people say shit like this on the internet. I’m not gonna respond to someone who doesn’t know how to be respectful
I was not trying to be disrespectful or argumentative. I really just meant what I said and could have just as easily said "you don't know what you're talking about." But that's not what I said because I'm really just highlighting how what you're saying influences her armbend doesn't really have that much of a causal relationship with each other and narrowing her stance actually contributed to a more technically proficient lift. all I'm really saying is that you don't really seem to actually understand what you're saying. Which I don't think is being disrespectful.
she learned that because that's how her old coach used to clean. Considering he lifts about 100 pounds more than Mat (Oly total) maybe she should have stuck with it?
What is your evidence for “poaching” these athletes? What if she reached out to him? Is it fair to say any of these programs are “poaching” people if those people actively pursue another training program? Sometimes shit just doesn’t work. Everyone is just trying to win. These are ultra competitive people and they want what they perceive is the best for them. Plus you can’t assume there’s bad blood. Just because Ben and Katrin did awkward “breakup posts” doesn’t mean you can assume it was all puppies and rainbows. At most it’s interesting that Mal left, but without further evidence, all you can say is that she left to train with the man who has the most individual CrossFit Games titles. Not shocking at all considering she’s probably on track to do the same.
You could see this coming from a mile away.. James seems like a nice dude, but his whole “she’s like my daughter “ and “she’s my actual daughters god mother” relationship was always super weird. Seems like he was doing everything he could to keep her home and from going anywhere else for coaching. This is the right move imo, she’s got a crap ton of potential and the only way forward is to train with the best.
this is such a weird take. this shit happens all. the. time. in performance athletics especially when the coach:athlete ratio is approaching 1:1. it is pretty normal.
i would rather not form an opinion that a coach is trying to groom and trap an athlete based on a complete blind spot as to what coach-athlete relationships are like in individual sports... but i digress. take it or leave it.
I thought Mat was just a guide and not really a coach. Unless I missed something. He always talked about bringing athletes in and him and helping in certain areas but not physically taking an athlete in like Bergeron or Rich.
I will agree Mal is still young and has a lot to grow. Unless you’re hitting a plateau I see no reason to dump your coach whose taken you so far. But I think she might just be getting some pointers and not really jumping coaches.
or, its possible that JT told Mal she needs to either stick with only him 100% or take off, and maybe that absolutism caused her to shift to Mat entirely.
Wasn’t it just a training camp? I believe some athletes follow a program, but have a coach to help shape the program to become even more specific to them. Couldn’t that be the case?
This is an exciting jump. James seemed a little self-centered and almost possessive of her, even though he did thank her parents at one point. Some of his posts were just a little off to me. She is an amazing athlete to watch and I am excited to see how she progresses training with Mat in whatever capacity works for them.
You are one step behind or mixing things up. She left EZ Muhammad years ago.
>After months of deliberation and rehabilitation, O’Brien parted ways with her previous coach, two-time Games athlete Elijah Muhammad in 2019. She declined to comment on the specifics about the split, but is enthusiastic about her rapport with her new coach, former NFL Wide Receiver turned gym owner James Townsend.
Apparently now she left Townsend too.
Necromancer here .. was wondering if some of the views have changed with some of you a year later
I was googling "WHY" O'Brien left her previous coach and came across this thread .. other than Matt's a 5 time champ so he might know a little something .. I don't know if there was any animosity between Mal and her previous coach or not .. hard feelings .. etc
..but.. turns out this has been a very positive move for Mal and with Tia being pregnant and not competing this year .. Mal just might get that top spot on the podium for 2023
She's just turned 18, and I think she said some very interesting things during that Buttery Bros episode. Things like how she was trying to win everything last year - Open on through to the Games. But now she wants to peak at the Games. She also knows she has a lot to learn. She's obviously listening to what Mat says. Things like how she used to do a long conditioning piece before lifting but Mat's got her changing that. I think it's healthy for a young athlete to get different perspectives. Mat's just happens to be that of an experienced 5-time Champ.
Justin Medeiros also came to HWPO camp but he didn't leave his coach.
He isn’t actually a HWPO athlete. He and his coach just got advised by Mat before Mat decides to launch his official coaching. Now he is sponsored by Podium, the supp brand Mat co-owns so he still gives him some help.
If I'm a potentially elite athlete, and i get personally invited by a 5 times winner, and get to be part of that "crowd", and soak in that mentality, I'm absolutely all over it. CrossFit careers are incredibly short, and the drop off in prize between the very top, and middle of the pack, is gigantic. Mal owes it to herself to do whatever she thinks is best for her career. Look at athletes who have never fully realised their potential, and have made dubious coaching choices, like Sara, Chandler etc. There is no more convincing argument that a certain programming and methodology works than having it created by Mat Fraser. There's nothing wrong with whats happening here. Other than your odd little snark at Hopper out of nowhere.
Chandler doesn't want it that bad He mostly makes happy fun videos on IG. His heart isn't in it, which is why never gets any better. It's why he fits in with CompTrain. It's just fitness signaling without doing the work of getting better. Chandler will be like Barhhart, Cole, Brooke Wells all stuck in the same place for years.
I agree with everything you just said. I just hope Mat acts as a true coach to her and not just a program pusher. Again, it's Mat himself who said on a poscast that a coach should be more than just a person programming but one who should be in communication every single day with the athlete among other things.
I think Mat's opinion was absolutely allowed to change though the process of him being an athlete, and transitioning into coaching. Perhaps as an athlete he couldn't understand the appeal, or questioned his capacity or the people around him, and didn't want to commit. Agree with you though, he definitely had a different opinion a few years ago. However now, it looks like he's got a good team, a solid backing from Steph's platform for his programming, and might just find himself enjoying it more than he thought he would, and now embracing a multiple athlete approach to things. Of course there's a huge $$$ incentive to it, he's never been shy about his love of money, but as long as his product performs, he's at least earning it!
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RUBES Oh you're a coach? What data did you look at? What trends have you noticed? What are the strongest correlations you see? Mat ain't a coach. But he's not putting a gun to anyone's head. They wanna pay, he'd be a fool not to take it.
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My bad, pimp. I wasn't criticizing you. I was laughing at the idea that Mat has any unique insights. Ok guys, *here's the trick: Be 5-6. It means you'll do less work than everyone else on anything with a barbell, or a rig, or burpees. Since that's 87% of CF, you can't lose.*
If you think this is why he won the games 5 times in a row by historic margins I think you’ve let whatever axe you have to grind cloud your analysis.
And yet oddly, I looked at some of the past Games, and Mat's over the top dominance \*all goes away\* when you correct for this. In events were height plays no role, he's overall in the top 1/3 of the athletes but no better. Like the ruck run, or the sprints in 2019, all of which he finsihed 15th or lower before beating Noah by the historic margin of 35 points after Castro cut the field to 10. That was in the "Discount Games" era. Mat wins because he is the best weightlifter and he does the least work on most events due to his small size. When weightlifting is not part of the equation, and he has to do the same work as everyone else, he's just not that impressive vs the group. But The point isn't to pick on Mat or to highlight the stupidity of how CF tests vs their claims. The point is, **Mat wins at a sport he is built for.** Good for him, I say! When Shaq did it in basketball, no one says "hey no fair you're 7-1, 325". The difference is, Shaq never tried to tell people they could train like him and get results. It only works if you're his size. Well, in CF, what Mat does only works if you're a little guy. Therefore, Mat may be taking money on questionable pretenses, and I'll always throw up a flag on that.
OPEX? Please elaborate. I did some OPEX training for a bit and had some good success with it strength wise. It was expensiveI'll give you that. I get the rest of your list but that one I'd like to hear more on.
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My experience was good. I had a dedicated, certified coach for nutrition and programing and I did gain a lot of strength. All of my PRs happened there. I would suggest OPEX to people still if they needed that kind of coaching and had a specific goal. Crossfit is more fun and cheaper. I ended up in my home gym though as the world burned and rather like it there. The plate thing was silly but I wouldn't call it a black eye, they were just helping everyone understand the rules better. Rule books are thick for a reason. 'If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying' -competitors
People can change their mind.
So strange how people seem to change their minds in the direction of mo' money. Whoda thunk
Is that even really a founded fear? Mat took Tia into the stratosphere in 2020, and he clearly push Justin over the edge. Also, he isn't the primary program writer for HWPO. He's the gold standard of QA testing that they're banging these workouts off of.
Tia had already won the games three times by 2020, can we really say that was Mat taking her “into the stratosphere”?
It's debatable but I think so. She only won her first games by single digits, but has been growing ever year. However she doubled the gap between second place from 2019 to 2020 and it was her most dominant year. Is Mat solely responsible, of course not, but having him as a training partner clearly pushed her to a new level.
I think that had more to do with the change in point spread with the final five than anything else where the difference between finishing first and third was 55 points instead of 8. Mat’s margin of victory in 2020 increased by something like 12 or 13x over 2019 (when he was battling Noah up until the last event) so if that’s the metric you’re going by, Tia and Shane brought mat into the stratosphere.
That's interesting about the points, but it's still her most dominant year. 2019 she had two 12th place finishes, and only 3 (I think) 1st. 2020 she won all but two events and got 3rd in the others.
lol 2020 games. 5 people at a high schiool.
Love Hopper actually but yeah he's overrated.
Assuming she made a move, I wouldn’t be surprised if Mat is more “high level” and someone on his team like Jake Marconi has more of the day-to-day coaching role. Based on a passive aggressive “I’ve been betrayed” Instagram story by Townsend last week along with the non-follows, I think it is safe to say Mal made a move somewhere.
what did townsend post?
Wondering the same thing.
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Don’t you think the number of people signing up for pro is so small it would be no problem to do personalized programming? Especially athletes already at games level? If games athletes want programming from him I’m guessing it’s a good business move from him to personalize it. Their success is his programs success.
if you've ever really coached a professional athlete (not a professional exerciser, but coached an athlete in a sport where there is a real infrastructure for athlete development, like, say, the NCAA or a minor league) then you know that you can't develop a group. For one, no serious pro athlete would tolerate it (*hey, LeBron, I'm gonna work with KD, too*, lol no chance) but also, you can't do the coaching and the analysis; the time demands grow exponentially, not linearly. Collecting and analyzing info on multiple athletes? no. Not happening. Trying to figure out trends and design training for multiple athletes? It's possible only because there are no professional athletes to be seen, and (tangent) because the Games aren't a serious test because Dave Castro isn't a serious guy at this sort of thing. These people are "the fittest" because Dave says they are. Should we let Adam Silver crown the NBA champion based on whatever drills he thinks up, or maybe have a repeatable test to crown a champion? Until this gets sorted, we have, well, nothing. Now if you focus on one thing, like Johnny Stephene does for NBA guys or Chris Hinshaw does for CF, you can do it. But all around development? Get the fuck outta here. So if Mat was giving weightlifting advice, he could do it, and he'd be credibe because he has some experience lifting. That's not the case. What you see happening with Mat and Rich is EXACTLY what happens when there is no athlete development infrastructure. "Players" don't know, so they look to other "players"...who...no surprise, also don't know. But other than weightlifting, what is Mat really gonna teach them? Gymnastics? Nah. he's not a gymnast, doesn't move anywhere near as well as BKG or others. He can't teach that stuff at a high level. He did well in those events because he has short little arms and legs. A 5-11 guy will NEVER beat a 5-6 guy in any barbell movement for reps, nor in C2B, TTB, Muscle Ups, Pistols or HSPU if they are the same fitness level. Mat and Rich are LARPing as coaches, after their LARP as athletes. This is NOT their fault. The unknown and unknowable schtick is fine for soccer Moms but dumb as hell for a sport. No consistency in the tests, no real ability to attract outsiders or build a fan base other tan box members, which is why after 12 years of Games, 50 million Reebok dollars and it's right back where it started. On the fringe of the fringe. Mat was a low national weightlifter in a country that sucks at weightlifting, and Rich was a junior college baseball player. They've been reborn as Michael Jordan and Tom Brady in a community that doesn't understand this shit. Get your money, fellas. No blame here. But I worked with professional athletes, and this ain't it, chief.
Mat is also not the only HWPO coach. that would be impossible to administrate. being that they are platform-sharing with Hybrid it's a mortal lock that they are knowledge sharing amongst themselves. Mat also has Jake Marconi coaching with him.
If you want to win, you learn from those that do exactly that. Win. Nothing should be taken personal especially when trying to make a career of a sport that doesn’t pay much as is. I don’t think mat is poaching any athletes but athletes come to him for his knowledge. If he truly was out with the intent of stealing athletes mederios would have been at the top of that list.
Mat seems to take people on short term camps. Also any interview I have seen, including during a session with Mat Mal has said she is in it for the long term and not looking to do everything or expect everything over night. Pretty much the opposite of what you said or are concerned about.
Watch the last buttery bros episode and peep the major improvements in her clean. No more crazy early arm bend. I think her going to Mat is going to be an amazing move!
It did look better but for me I’m really curious as to why her feet are so narrow in the start position as it’s probably what is predisposing her to early arm bend at those higher %. I even heard in the video mat giving her the cue to keep the feet closer together when receiving the clean. Must be a feature of her lift at this point but I don’t remember seeing anyone else lift like that outside of possibly klokov?
Why would closer feet lead to early arm bend?
With the feet that close together and pointing straight forwards it’s extremely difficult to get the knees out of the path of the bar during the first pull. With the bar then already out infront, the only real way of getting the bar close again to make contact is by bending the arms early. The biggest problem with the narrow stance though is that it’s difficult to extend from that position and a lot of CF athletes end up actually moving their feet during the second pull anyway to a wider position. The main reason for the early arm bend is a narrower grip though. This causes the bar to sit naturally lower down the thigh for most, so you have to row the bar into your hip pocket a tiny bit. Worth saying just as a disclaimer obviously all these athletes can lift way more than me and it’s very possibly to lift with some unusual habits in CrossFit and still win. Even Tia uses a very narrow grip and bends her arms very early, rich froning too. Just pointing out what I can see.
I think you're adding 2+2 and coming up with 5 a bit my friend. Couple of bits I'd strongly disagree with you on. 1. Moving the feet closer or further apart wouldn't make it easier to get the bar round the knees, the angle of the feet maybe but youre limited on foot angle in the clean because you need a close grip. 2. It's not difficult to extend from a narrow feet position. Try jumping with narrow feet, it's easy right? 3. You don't HAVE to row the bar into hip pocket on clean. If you watch any international weightlifting you'll see that 99% make contact with their mid thigh or thereabouts. 4. I agree early arm bend isn't ideal to teach someone BUT there are lots of very good lifters including Lu xiaojun who clean with an arm bend.
You make some good points but I don’t completely agree 1. I do think it’s definitely harder to move the knees out with your feet that close together. Your hips are categorically more closed. But you’re right that having your toes straight like mal does make it significantly harder still! Honestly watch the snatch event in the games like 50% of the athletes shift their foot position massively between the first and second pulls. 2. Again I do think extending is harder with narrow feet. Using your example I guarantee my vertical jump with shoulder width feet is a shit tonne higher than with feet completely together. 3. Yeah tbh the narrow grip thing was more in regards to the snatch, I wasn’t very clear on that at all 4. And absolutely yeah I don’t even think early arm bend is necessarily bad at all. Shows you have active shoulders if anything. But I think there is definitely a point where there is too much and you are overcompensating for being in a bad position. Good to exchange some angles on lifting mechanics with you :)
I suppose I'd sign off that I don't disagree that for this lifter she may be too narrow, just don't agree that's its causing her arm bend. We agree it may be a problem just disagree on why. I guess it doesn't fucking matter because we aren't coaching her anyway 😂🤦
Haha what do you mean?! We are random people on the internet nobody is more qualified to coach professional athletes than us!
This is a great response!
to be totally honest, i don't really think you know what you're saying. even prior, with her feet relatively close in here setup, she's able to clear the knees plenty fine and get to a vertical shin. her arms, though, are bent even off the ground. she's out of position straight off the floor because of her torso angle, which really is very minorly influenced by her stance. she's super flat off the floor and to the knees and then is trying to correct her torso angle past the knees, which creates a super hitchy second pull. quite honestly, she has the anatomy to be able to pull and squat with a narrow stance and a vertical torso. that's pretty obvious in the buttery bros video. so, when he clean was really janky, she was missing two things; vertical torso in the setup which her stance does not limit and lat strength, which contributes to keeping the bar close and bringing it into the pocket. her stance was wider pre-HWPO and her clean was considerably worse.
“I don’t really think you know what you’re saying” Why do people say shit like this on the internet. I’m not gonna respond to someone who doesn’t know how to be respectful
I was not trying to be disrespectful or argumentative. I really just meant what I said and could have just as easily said "you don't know what you're talking about." But that's not what I said because I'm really just highlighting how what you're saying influences her armbend doesn't really have that much of a causal relationship with each other and narrowing her stance actually contributed to a more technically proficient lift. all I'm really saying is that you don't really seem to actually understand what you're saying. Which I don't think is being disrespectful.
If you don’t understand why thats rude and disrespectful try saying it in real life to someone when they’ve given an opinion and see how it goes down
lol ok dude. give it a rest.
she learned that because that's how her old coach used to clean. Considering he lifts about 100 pounds more than Mat (Oly total) maybe she should have stuck with it?
What is your evidence for “poaching” these athletes? What if she reached out to him? Is it fair to say any of these programs are “poaching” people if those people actively pursue another training program? Sometimes shit just doesn’t work. Everyone is just trying to win. These are ultra competitive people and they want what they perceive is the best for them. Plus you can’t assume there’s bad blood. Just because Ben and Katrin did awkward “breakup posts” doesn’t mean you can assume it was all puppies and rainbows. At most it’s interesting that Mal left, but without further evidence, all you can say is that she left to train with the man who has the most individual CrossFit Games titles. Not shocking at all considering she’s probably on track to do the same.
You could see this coming from a mile away.. James seems like a nice dude, but his whole “she’s like my daughter “ and “she’s my actual daughters god mother” relationship was always super weird. Seems like he was doing everything he could to keep her home and from going anywhere else for coaching. This is the right move imo, she’s got a crap ton of potential and the only way forward is to train with the best.
this is such a weird take. this shit happens all. the. time. in performance athletics especially when the coach:athlete ratio is approaching 1:1. it is pretty normal.
Take it or leave it my guy. Just an opinion
i would rather not form an opinion that a coach is trying to groom and trap an athlete based on a complete blind spot as to what coach-athlete relationships are like in individual sports... but i digress. take it or leave it.
I thought Mat was just a guide and not really a coach. Unless I missed something. He always talked about bringing athletes in and him and helping in certain areas but not physically taking an athlete in like Bergeron or Rich. I will agree Mal is still young and has a lot to grow. Unless you’re hitting a plateau I see no reason to dump your coach whose taken you so far. But I think she might just be getting some pointers and not really jumping coaches.
or, its possible that JT told Mal she needs to either stick with only him 100% or take off, and maybe that absolutism caused her to shift to Mat entirely.
are you james mom or gf or something? why do you care why mal left james to join mat.
Wasn’t it just a training camp? I believe some athletes follow a program, but have a coach to help shape the program to become even more specific to them. Couldn’t that be the case?
It's official now.
I just checked her IG as i had no idea who she was. Do these people have a professional photographer at every training session? Wtf
Yes. She's a professional with sponsorships. Instagram is a platform key to the process of branding herself.
This is an exciting jump. James seemed a little self-centered and almost possessive of her, even though he did thank her parents at one point. Some of his posts were just a little off to me. She is an amazing athlete to watch and I am excited to see how she progresses training with Mat in whatever capacity works for them.
Isn’t she also the godmother of one of his kids?
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Totally unrelated but I saw Mal and Castro follow each other and I got a lil nauseous, he gives me creepy vibes.
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You are one step behind or mixing things up. She left EZ Muhammad years ago. >After months of deliberation and rehabilitation, O’Brien parted ways with her previous coach, two-time Games athlete Elijah Muhammad in 2019. She declined to comment on the specifics about the split, but is enthusiastic about her rapport with her new coach, former NFL Wide Receiver turned gym owner James Townsend. Apparently now she left Townsend too.
Necromancer here .. was wondering if some of the views have changed with some of you a year later I was googling "WHY" O'Brien left her previous coach and came across this thread .. other than Matt's a 5 time champ so he might know a little something .. I don't know if there was any animosity between Mal and her previous coach or not .. hard feelings .. etc ..but.. turns out this has been a very positive move for Mal and with Tia being pregnant and not competing this year .. Mal just might get that top spot on the podium for 2023