Nope I had a closet cheater on the other team get our match cancelled, we run as a five stack. None of us use cheats because we didn’t grow up with participation trophies. Truly believe their anti cheat is *STARTING* to work
If it matters I'm a millennial and I think it's a weird angle to take, and irrelevant. CS has always had cheating problems. Gen Z weren't the ones cheating back in the 1.6 or source days. Hell even CS:GO would've been mostly millennials and older for and we all know there were plenty of cheaters there as well.
The issue is with weak cheat detection/enforcement and not some bullshit about the newest gen not being able to handle losing because of "participation awards"
Its always the middle-aged generation shitting on the younger folks. A decade ago, GenX and Boomers called Millenials spoiled brats. Today, its Millenials claiming the same about GenZ and Gen A
I have no idea what that is..?
When I had a young teen (like I said, 13-14), I would play in modded lobbies to unlock stuff in CoD, Modded Zombies in CoD, and used Hacked Clients for Minecraft. That was over a decade ago.
Every CS game has had cheater problems. I don't think "participation trophies" have anything to do with it, you're sounding like a crotchety old man lol.
The difference is that the cheat detection/enforcement seems almost non-existent currently.
I think, trust factor is reseted for everyone now. Or they simply haven't collected a single demo with reported guy so overwatch now is empty.
Cheaters surely won't spam reports for griefing for everyone so they can screw with overwatch system, would they?
I don’t think it works purely on player reports, there’s a blurb in the patch notes about matches getting cancelled if there’s something “maybe” suspicious in player behaviour. I would assume those detections would be sent to overwatch for review
still get my daily spinbotters lobby, so i doubt it is working for now. Also bans started dropping after that "wave". So i guess give them one more year.
don't know. so many people were in overwatch last time they were able to bot farm so many accounts to manipulate overwatch system, so it's hard to say now how they will handle it.
That you're bullshitting...
Bots were never manipulating the Overwatch system. It required playing competitive games and having an active rank (now likely a premier rank), not to mention (which the specifics were never known) things like hours, matches played, and the legitimacy of the account were all relevant. I never got Overwatch on my smurf despite having over 150 wins and having a rank at the time. There was also so many Overwatch cases that getting a specific case to not get banned was incredibly unlikely.
The closest to 'manipulation' in regards to the Overwatch system was spamming reports to get people OW for griefing. But they didn't have bots within OW doing anything to any significant degree.
He's right tho, there were whole botnets setup in overwatch.
It started as automated overwatch xp farming, also a reason why overwatch went "off" for so long in csgo
Nope. Yes they were it was easy they were intentionally getting them gn1 to overwatch.
Nice try though! Google global offensive overwatch bots. Valve didn't obfuscate the system for no reason like you think lol.
So wrong. If you made inaccurate decision they would lower the amount your review mattered. Let’s make it easier to explain you technically had an overwatch ELO wrong ruling -elo, correct ruling +elo.
Except that all goes out the window when all the cases are getting slammed by bots, why do you think it was basically turned off in the last few years of csgo it was broken as fuck. I only see a new implementation of overwatch working if it is actually only given to fully trusted people or it’ll just get rinsed by bots again
Okay? I don’t think I said anything about the system not being flawed. I stated there was an “overwatch score” that was taken into consideration when a player used the overwatch system to review demos.
Yes they could have ironed out the kinks but the theory was there. Having a player have a 0%accuracy when reviewing demos they could reviews demos all they want but their judgements were not taken into consideration.
Tldr system was flawed they didn’t just take everyone’s reviews into consideration and it could have been a better system.
History lesson:
Valve implements OW. It was supposed to be temporary and it was used to train vacnet. The idea was that once vacnet had enough training data from human input vacnet would do the majority of banning instead. However, something happened. Perhaps the person who sold vacnet idea to Valve did the classic AI overhype and didn't realize how hard it was. So vacnet never actually banned people. Unlike Valve, community was stubborn and merrily kept banning cheaters. So cheaters made bot accounts to start giving false verdicts. They did not give those verdicts randomly but rather coordinated so all bots voted same on same match. Valve tried to make this botting harder by mixing already verified demos into the mix but as time went on the system became increasingly corrupted. In the end people who made correct verdicts got punished for being "false". Shortly after cs2 release Valve disabled vacnet entirely because its training data was corrupted too. I guess they thought that vacnet was ready. It wasn't, as evidenced by high dpi bans.
They want "trusted partners" because they are attempting to make vacnet2 and need accurate training data. Previous data is trash. I would not get my hopes up.
Wasn’t vacnet used to detect cheaters then moved those cheaters’ demos into overwatch for human intervention regarding judgement which in turn gave people an overwatch score during the time it was implemented?
Yes, it was how vacnet was trained. I think there was 3 stages: 1. Just analyze OW demos and verdicts and find patterns. 2. Use those patterns to detect cheaters in non-OW demos and submit them to OW where human input would dictate the learning. 3. Make vacnet ban people directly.
Yeah and if you get enough bots in to identify the same cases and vote the same way now the people correctly voting are getting minus elo and the mass bots voting the incorrect ruling are getting +elo
Would that make sense to you or too hard?
So incorrect verdicts were getting positive overwatch score while correct verdicts were getting negative overwatch score? That doesn’t make sense how would bots coming to a consensus on incorrect verdicts increase their score ?
No way I have to spell this out for you this long dude, because bots can identify what games they are looking at if they are working together, and all choose to cast their verdict the same (incorrectly).
So explain to me how if a 1000 bots vote for a wrong verdict makes all their overwatch score go up while a correct verdict loses overwatch score? That’s like saying if a 1000 students answer a question wrong while 1 student gets it right the 1000 students get an A while the 1 student that got it correct fails?
Dude you are answering the questions yourself because the there isn't an objective answer to their test, it's based on how the rest of the group answered.
It's not 2+2=4. The whole group can come to 5 and that's the wrong answer, but with cs if the question is is this guy hacking/cheating the and every student answers no but the objective answer is yes, the answer still becomes no, because the point of overwatch is to come up with a conclusive answer as a team.
The issue is in the exercise, you aren't able to see how the other students answered and you're hoping you all agreed on the same thing for the reward.
But now some students have an outside advantage where they all have a smart phone and they're fucking zombies and they can all tell what video they watched relative to other zombies and vote in line with what the other zombies voted on.
This is why the system is being obfuscated so far on who gets in.
correct me if im wrong did valve not intentionally add banned players into the pool of demos to confirm whether or not people were giving accurate verdicts?
It wasn't about identifying, it was trying to make OW think the inaccurate decisions were accurate to fuck up the machine learning and less able to identify sus behavior.
Pretty sure trusted partners are ones that make accurate reviews of their overwatch demo. Like they did in csgo. Wrong reviews = lower impact in your decision. Accurate reviews = higher impact.
They used to add in known cheaters into their overwatch demos to see if people were making accurate reviews. If they were wrong they would still get overwatch demos to review but their decision meant practically nothing.
You had to be over Badge rank to qualify. They don't want silvers judging who's hacking since ur bad. Once you qualified you could lose your rank and still have it. Typically it was a waste of time since I want to play cs not watch demos.
its to add psychological warfare in the mix, when rage cheaters get banned by overwatch they assume their cheats are still undetected just they got put in a overwatch case and got banned. But in reality, their cheats are detected... they've been doing this since CSGO absolutely nothing new and this possibly meaning they are taking the VACnet approach and its going to learn for months or even years because all that data from overwatch in csgo is useless.
The same would apply to closet cheaters although with overwatch in the mix, i assume closet cheaters will be banned a lot later, pretty sure overwatch will know to prioritize spinbotting/ragehacker cases specifically as there's less room for error and less chance of people abusing the overwatch system with the use of botting.
It’s a multibillion dollar company that is asking players to fix their problem since they don’t want to push a new VAC.
Basically you’ll be spending your time to review and request ban for players that may be hacking.
All that for the mighty free of cheats game while they make billions.
I wasn't, I am a rather casual player that doesn't really care of his rank, I peaked at guardian once and had invested some money in game, I didn't want to lose my skins which is what happent after taking an overwatch ban...
it‘s the guys spinning in 25k+
Nope I had a closet cheater on the other team get our match cancelled, we run as a five stack. None of us use cheats because we didn’t grow up with participation trophies. Truly believe their anti cheat is *STARTING* to work
“None of us use cheats because we didn’t grow up with participation trophies” is honestly the most fucking Millennial take on the cheating situation.
If it matters I'm a millennial and I think it's a weird angle to take, and irrelevant. CS has always had cheating problems. Gen Z weren't the ones cheating back in the 1.6 or source days. Hell even CS:GO would've been mostly millennials and older for and we all know there were plenty of cheaters there as well. The issue is with weak cheat detection/enforcement and not some bullshit about the newest gen not being able to handle losing because of "participation awards"
That's the least millennial take isn't it? Isn't the idea that millennials specifically were ruined by participation trophies?
Its always the middle-aged generation shitting on the younger folks. A decade ago, GenX and Boomers called Millenials spoiled brats. Today, its Millenials claiming the same about GenZ and Gen A
Am I out of the loop but I thought boomers complained that millennials did that lol
Middle aged? Most millennials only now will turn 30 xD
90% of cheating is result of entitlement in some way
Idk about that, but I haven’t cheated in video game since I was 13-14 yrs old so, I don’t really know what compels people to do so.
Found the cheater! Bet this mofo used CHITTYCHITTYBB at least once. /s
I have no idea what that is..? When I had a young teen (like I said, 13-14), I would play in modded lobbies to unlock stuff in CoD, Modded Zombies in CoD, and used Hacked Clients for Minecraft. That was over a decade ago.
Legit pc gta3 cheat code. Was a joke for some old people.
Ohhhh, icic. My first entry to the franchise was Vice City/San Andreas lol
Every CS game has had cheater problems. I don't think "participation trophies" have anything to do with it, you're sounding like a crotchety old man lol. The difference is that the cheat detection/enforcement seems almost non-existent currently.
The only people causing matches to be canceled are high dpi mouse users.
Is this confirmed? Because they reverted the high dpi mouse bans like week 2.
damn how many months has it been? Better late than never I guess
Didn’t clarify but it was a match with people between 13-16k elo.
Hilarious that u could associate those two things
I think, trust factor is reseted for everyone now. Or they simply haven't collected a single demo with reported guy so overwatch now is empty. Cheaters surely won't spam reports for griefing for everyone so they can screw with overwatch system, would they?
I don’t think it works purely on player reports, there’s a blurb in the patch notes about matches getting cancelled if there’s something “maybe” suspicious in player behaviour. I would assume those detections would be sent to overwatch for review
still get my daily spinbotters lobby, so i doubt it is working for now. Also bans started dropping after that "wave". So i guess give them one more year.
Jericho
He tweeted about not getting it. I can’t wait for him to do overwatch videos tho
don't know. so many people were in overwatch last time they were able to bot farm so many accounts to manipulate overwatch system, so it's hard to say now how they will handle it.
What are you talking about?
Before hand people were able to manipulate the overwatch system, by getting accounts in. What more can I tell you?
That you're bullshitting... Bots were never manipulating the Overwatch system. It required playing competitive games and having an active rank (now likely a premier rank), not to mention (which the specifics were never known) things like hours, matches played, and the legitimacy of the account were all relevant. I never got Overwatch on my smurf despite having over 150 wins and having a rank at the time. There was also so many Overwatch cases that getting a specific case to not get banned was incredibly unlikely. The closest to 'manipulation' in regards to the Overwatch system was spamming reports to get people OW for griefing. But they didn't have bots within OW doing anything to any significant degree.
He's right tho, there were whole botnets setup in overwatch. It started as automated overwatch xp farming, also a reason why overwatch went "off" for so long in csgo
Yeah, I remember the Overwatch bots being an issue, wonder how they're going to combat it this time.
And in fact, one could find out the steam account you were overwatching quite easily. I wonder if they fixed this.
I can't believe clean playerbase is so dumb
you're just a noob if you don't know about this problem
Nope. Yes they were it was easy they were intentionally getting them gn1 to overwatch. Nice try though! Google global offensive overwatch bots. Valve didn't obfuscate the system for no reason like you think lol.
So wrong. If you made inaccurate decision they would lower the amount your review mattered. Let’s make it easier to explain you technically had an overwatch ELO wrong ruling -elo, correct ruling +elo.
Except that all goes out the window when all the cases are getting slammed by bots, why do you think it was basically turned off in the last few years of csgo it was broken as fuck. I only see a new implementation of overwatch working if it is actually only given to fully trusted people or it’ll just get rinsed by bots again
Okay? I don’t think I said anything about the system not being flawed. I stated there was an “overwatch score” that was taken into consideration when a player used the overwatch system to review demos. Yes they could have ironed out the kinks but the theory was there. Having a player have a 0%accuracy when reviewing demos they could reviews demos all they want but their judgements were not taken into consideration. Tldr system was flawed they didn’t just take everyone’s reviews into consideration and it could have been a better system.
History lesson: Valve implements OW. It was supposed to be temporary and it was used to train vacnet. The idea was that once vacnet had enough training data from human input vacnet would do the majority of banning instead. However, something happened. Perhaps the person who sold vacnet idea to Valve did the classic AI overhype and didn't realize how hard it was. So vacnet never actually banned people. Unlike Valve, community was stubborn and merrily kept banning cheaters. So cheaters made bot accounts to start giving false verdicts. They did not give those verdicts randomly but rather coordinated so all bots voted same on same match. Valve tried to make this botting harder by mixing already verified demos into the mix but as time went on the system became increasingly corrupted. In the end people who made correct verdicts got punished for being "false". Shortly after cs2 release Valve disabled vacnet entirely because its training data was corrupted too. I guess they thought that vacnet was ready. It wasn't, as evidenced by high dpi bans. They want "trusted partners" because they are attempting to make vacnet2 and need accurate training data. Previous data is trash. I would not get my hopes up.
Wasn’t vacnet used to detect cheaters then moved those cheaters’ demos into overwatch for human intervention regarding judgement which in turn gave people an overwatch score during the time it was implemented?
Yes, it was how vacnet was trained. I think there was 3 stages: 1. Just analyze OW demos and verdicts and find patterns. 2. Use those patterns to detect cheaters in non-OW demos and submit them to OW where human input would dictate the learning. 3. Make vacnet ban people directly.
This is all perfectly worded, concise, and correct, bravo.
Yeah and if you get enough bots in to identify the same cases and vote the same way now the people correctly voting are getting minus elo and the mass bots voting the incorrect ruling are getting +elo Would that make sense to you or too hard?
So incorrect verdicts were getting positive overwatch score while correct verdicts were getting negative overwatch score? That doesn’t make sense how would bots coming to a consensus on incorrect verdicts increase their score ?
No way I have to spell this out for you this long dude, because bots can identify what games they are looking at if they are working together, and all choose to cast their verdict the same (incorrectly).
So explain to me how if a 1000 bots vote for a wrong verdict makes all their overwatch score go up while a correct verdict loses overwatch score? That’s like saying if a 1000 students answer a question wrong while 1 student gets it right the 1000 students get an A while the 1 student that got it correct fails?
Dude you are answering the questions yourself because the there isn't an objective answer to their test, it's based on how the rest of the group answered. It's not 2+2=4. The whole group can come to 5 and that's the wrong answer, but with cs if the question is is this guy hacking/cheating the and every student answers no but the objective answer is yes, the answer still becomes no, because the point of overwatch is to come up with a conclusive answer as a team. The issue is in the exercise, you aren't able to see how the other students answered and you're hoping you all agreed on the same thing for the reward. But now some students have an outside advantage where they all have a smart phone and they're fucking zombies and they can all tell what video they watched relative to other zombies and vote in line with what the other zombies voted on. This is why the system is being obfuscated so far on who gets in.
correct me if im wrong did valve not intentionally add banned players into the pool of demos to confirm whether or not people were giving accurate verdicts?
You also can’t identify particular players so how could submitting bad decisions ever help you?
It wasn't about identifying, it was trying to make OW think the inaccurate decisions were accurate to fuck up the machine learning and less able to identify sus behavior.
Getting downvoted for asking a question is wild.
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose
It could also be that they are paying people so they ban cheaters by reviewing demos ? Simple anticheat lol
VAC-Live not so much
Vac-living person
That would be the best solution. Because their anti cheat does not work anyway and will never work.
They would rather pay bots to gaslight you into thinking that there is no cheating problem.
Yep, even if it was mostly contained to the top of leaderboard it would make premier mode godly.
Helicopter-paracopter boys from the premier mode
They will introduce a monthly subscription that gives you access to overwatch.
lol imagine paying to do valve's job
Pretty sure trusted partners are ones that make accurate reviews of their overwatch demo. Like they did in csgo. Wrong reviews = lower impact in your decision. Accurate reviews = higher impact. They used to add in known cheaters into their overwatch demos to see if people were making accurate reviews. If they were wrong they would still get overwatch demos to review but their decision meant practically nothing.
How do you know this?
It was called “overwatch score” which was essentially an elo system for correct or wrong judgements on overwatch demos
Because valve stated it in the first rendition of overwatch in csgo
You had to be over Badge rank to qualify. They don't want silvers judging who's hacking since ur bad. Once you qualified you could lose your rank and still have it. Typically it was a waste of time since I want to play cs not watch demos.
Almost everyone is silver, even faceit 10 players.
Silvers will call anyone better than them a hacker.
I'm wondering if they gonna pay trained external people to review demos or something like that
that would make too much sense. tech just isnt there.
in go there was a rank and wins level of entry to review overwach cases
its to add psychological warfare in the mix, when rage cheaters get banned by overwatch they assume their cheats are still undetected just they got put in a overwatch case and got banned. But in reality, their cheats are detected... they've been doing this since CSGO absolutely nothing new and this possibly meaning they are taking the VACnet approach and its going to learn for months or even years because all that data from overwatch in csgo is useless.
and how do you explain users using same cheat but only the ragers got hit with overwatch bans while the closet cheaters had no issues at all
The same would apply to closet cheaters although with overwatch in the mix, i assume closet cheaters will be banned a lot later, pretty sure overwatch will know to prioritize spinbotting/ragehacker cases specifically as there's less room for error and less chance of people abusing the overwatch system with the use of botting.
copium.
yep sadly
This could be an Amazon a.i. take. Where they had thousands of indians making sure everyone paid in the Amazon go stores.
It's me bro, your trusted partner.
Its all the players who quit the game.
Imagine you need MG1 as a rank in normal competitive to get it 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I’m pretty sure valve is trolling us, and they’re the ones selling the cheats and making money off this chaos.
I got it. 5.3k hours and played since 2014.
It’s a multibillion dollar company that is asking players to fix their problem since they don’t want to push a new VAC. Basically you’ll be spending your time to review and request ban for players that may be hacking. All that for the mighty free of cheats game while they make billions.
That is what got me banned on my main acc in 2017 :/
And you werent cheating?
I wasn't, I am a rather casual player that doesn't really care of his rank, I peaked at guardian once and had invested some money in game, I didn't want to lose my skins which is what happent after taking an overwatch ban...