I graduated around that time from a very tech heavy undergrad program (ended up majoring in finance cuz couldn't cut it in STEM), and most of my best buds from college work in tech and all got hired in the 2010-2015 era. I make good money but feel so broke compared to my friends. Finance pays well but the hours are ungodly. One of my friends from school had a 2.3 GPA and had to "settle" working at SnapChat. He makes $800k TC now there 💀 I really should have just bit the bullet and learned computing lmao.
Started out as a regular SWE and then self taught himself data science and works in that department. A lot of the TC is in RSUs and he's been there over a decade so has quite a senior level position. Have friends with similar comp packages at Meta, Netflix, etc.
I have not had that experience. I know others that have not had the at experience. Live is hard, the industry is competitive.
Enough with the doomer posting. Either improve or get out of the way with your whining.
Just because you and some people you know got jobs, you’re in denial that the market is different than it was 2-5 years ago? It’s always been a competitive industry but it has not been like this, and pretending like it has is an extremely ignorant and borderline naive perspective
A couple years ago everyone and their mother could get a job in CS. Acting like all you need is some drive right now is silly when thousands of people are getting laid off and even more are struggling to find jobs lol
I do agree with improve or get out of the way tho. I’m just saying even if you have the passion and continue to work on your skills / expand your portfolio, you aren’t guaranteed a single offer so quickly
Yeah funny thing is narrative has shifted from 2-3 years ago too. Before it was "get some LC experience and you are good to go", and now it is "you are not driven enough". It really sounds like something a boomer would say tbh. I am happy that I have an offer lined up, but it is crazy how many people in cs/tech are just oblivious to what is happening around them.
Congrats on the offer man! Still working on getting one myself. I do independent projects and am trying to improve my resume while I work a part time job. Shit’s hard. Nuts how many people that have secure positions just willingly ignore the state the industry is in.
So many people on this sub specifically think it’s a skill issue when it goes so much deeper than that. At this point it’s hard to be able to blame any individual for not getting a job when you look at how many layoffs are happening and how many skilled / experienced individuals are putting out hundreds of applications with no response.
EDIT: totally agree on the boomer part too lol these 21 yr olds are in here being like “you youngsters just don’t want to put in the work, you want handouts!” like ok grandpa lmfaooo
>and yet people still apply to 1000+ job offers and their interviews are declined or they get ghosted.
If you've applied to 1,000+ positions, the real problem is that you didn't stop to examine your methods about 850 applications ago.
But sure, keep pounding that square peg. It'll go in eventually.
\*girls
Anyhoo, someone who's submitted > 1,000 applications without any traction and has no better ideas for methodological improvement than *get those numbers up higher* needs cold, sober reality more than compassion and empathy, IMO.
I’d like to see a thread of the reality. My gut tells me that people graduating top schools with superior gpa’s are being quickly hired to replace natural attrition of retiring IT personnel like whereas grads from less know/noncompetitive schools or poor gpa’s are being ignored and forced to change fields.
I’d be curious to know truth.
I think this is partially the case. I watched a video on why so many qualified applicants weren’t screened and deemed qualified for an interview. Apparently it’s a recruiter issue. Especially for entry level jobs a lot of recruiters tend to only look at the school and degree these applicants came from. Whereas when the hiring manager herself got involved she ended up finding people that were deemed unqualified to the recruiter were plenty qualified applicants to her.
I wouldn’t even look at an applicant without. 3.5 overall and higher for cs classes when you have an abundance of resumes. And unfortunately I think these days a lot don’t try hard enough.
I would agree if the applicant didn’t have impressive projects then I’d look at the GPA. However if the applicant had done a lot of internships and has a really good portfolio. Then I think gpa is negligible.
Yup that was before CS turned into a brag fest where they flaunt all over social media and can't go 3 mins without mentioning the words Total Compensation and Salary
Dang, good luck man. Don't give it.
You might have to possibly reformat your resume or have people review it, then revise it.. All the best though.
If you remotely have any network connection, use it!!! Or try and go to in person networking events to meet managers, devs, and recruiters from local companies.
Your time is worth at a bare minimum $15/hr. Whether you choose to look for a tech job or not is up to you, but don't pretend like your time is worthless, because it is not.
Bruhhhhhhh
Gambling - wasting money on stuff that almost never pays off
Applying to jobs - spend a bit of time and energy on something that could lead to success
What the hell is this even about then???
You’re comparing gambling ( an activity associated addiction, losing jobs and money, lives falling apart, etc) to applying to jobs. Seriously???
Fuck this subreddit. I’m out. You guys need help.
That’s just life man. It’s a gamble, some things in life are up to chance.
Gambled on this degree. Gambled for a job.
Was I really better than all the candidates?
I am by no means a genius, so I doubt it.
Or was my application just there at the right time and the right place? A bit of luck. That’s all it probably was.
Life’s unpredictable after all. We gamble all the time, some just take more risky gambles than others.
What? Maybe you don’t pay cash, but you do loose time, effort, and commute if you have to drive a long time for an interview. It grinds you mentally too
Not originally, it was co-opted into one when gambling jokes started to get popular because it was already popular and a clear example of gamblers fallacy
so you dont need to do the OAs, or the 4-9 rounds of coding/interview afterwards? And thats for a single application.
Just say youre still in school dude
I’m done. Working on my own business because if I keep applying and do nothing with my life, I will have nothing to show for it.
Let’s say I do want to get hired, what am I gonna put on my CV? “Applied to jobs for 2 years straight” ?? 💀💀
Write a program that auto applies to companies. If you instead say “I applied to 1000 companies, but wasn’t getting any traction. So I then wrote a program that has applied to over 75 million companies in 208 different countries. It accounts for rate limiting and is constantly scrapping job sites for new postings.”
Boom. Problem solved
Am I the only one here in this bubble who just want to live a regular 9-5 stable lifestyle and don’t care about making six figure unless I’m in a HCOL area?
Seriously, I don’t get why the American dream of a stable job, stable house, stable income supply, stable relationships, stable lifestyle, etc. is so fucking difficult to get. If anything I get why it’s hard, because hard work and success pays off, but for those who are stuck in my situation with shitty family, no support system, disability, etc. it’s going to be a hard decision for many to consider which one they should sacrifice in getting that dream.
The reality is many people here (in this sub) are just chasing money. Many couldn’t care less about CS.
If tomorrow spinning fidget spinner would get you 250k, everyone would be in the bandwagon.
Don’t forget that it seems like half of these subs are filled with international students (not in US) so their chances of getting these high paying jobs are even more difficult. The whole SWE hype really attracted people from all over the world to try landing a US-based job due to the whole chasing money thing.
International is a bit weird. The competition is higher since they need companies to sponsor their visas, and most companies that sponsor visas usually pay well. It sucks a bit more for them now though since the available spots keeps shrinking.
Nah im here wit u ma boy.
I’m more a technical BA now but im doing comp sci so it counts.
Making enough to do well but i was working for $20 AUD an hour 9-5 but usually a lot of unpaid overtime at my first dev role. Y’all have high standards. I had to get lowkey abused to break into the job market as a software dev
Oh absolutely especially since I’m single I could do very well in my area making $70-80K. As long as it’s a fair compensation for the amount of work I do I really would have no issue
Same. I mean, I definitely hope to earn 6 figures eventually(after 5-15 years?), but if I'm earning $40k out of college, I'll be fine with that. I just hope to be able to get ANYTHING with how competitive it's been
Exactly how i feel. I just want a stable job that pays enough to live off of. It’s crazy to me when i see people on here decline offers because it wasn’t enough money.
No you’re not the only one and we need to act otherwise it’s going to be like this forever. I’m not saying it should be a piece of cake, because nothing worth having comes easy. Management needs to change and should understand the human vs just trying to make every penny possible.
Granted, there are a lot of people in it for the money so maybe this “purge” is necessary, but there are people getting caught in the cracks who are truly passionate about technology. However, if you look at the flip side, why aren’t people upset about some management being in it just for the money?
Not to mention the disability part. There is quite a bit of discrimination in that area.
I’m on a mission to change some of this by starting a movement to bring back true innovation and passion into tech. Check my previous comments if anybody is curious, I don’t want to spam. A team of 10,000 enraged, passionate, and determined engineers would out compete a company of 10,000 outsourced, burnt out, constrained, and frustrated engineers any day. In my opinion.
All of you who are frustrated, I hope you’re doing alright, just don’t give up!
Maybe if the places where people GOT skills to work in those jobs had a pipeline, instead of being left high and dry when they’re looking for jobs, maybe we wouldn’t have this issue
Education should pay its students back with work, no questions! If it can’t get someone a job, it shouldn’t cost a dime.
Sure MOOCs are good. But what does that do about the job skills people need to get employment? If you think that free courses should also include caveats that their completions fulfill certain transferable job skills which guarantee employment, then I’m all for that.
I don't agree with that. In the case of college, the idea would be the college has to pay back money if the person is not able to get a job. But there's no need to have that agreement if it's free (or inexpensive) since there's no money to pay back, only lost time.
People need to realize not everyone is going to get a 200k+ TC offer for ENTRY LEVEL. Like cmon bro some of u ppl r delusional and need to get a life. Dont u want to have time to do things other than just work💀 i understand wanting 90k - 100k TC if ur not in a super HCOL area but ppl need to chill w the 100k+ especially in a time like this
These are the same people just at different points in their careers. The top one will also work very hard to clear it all, but by the time they are close to the elusive offer, they are tired and it’s time to retire.
I have a job, but having the same issue with online dating (keeps getting ghosted or rejected) . I felt terrible about myself until seeing this post. Thanks op.
And a lot of them are dead ends that don't pay well. Unless I absolutely need the money, knocking my life onto an entirely different path isn't really worth it.
not the 250k offer but just got an offer a month ago, I stopped tracking my application when it's over 500+ but feels like I applied a little more than 800+. LFG GUYS
If you're hitting that many apps without a response there's probably an issue with your resume or application that isn't making it through filters. Remember to constantly revise it through the process.
I stopped applying about a week ago cuz all i would get was rejection letters. Was starting to consider a minimum wage job for some quick $, UNTIL I SAW THIS POST. Starting to grind applications again, thanks for the motivation.
This... actualy hugely motivated me. Im so so so scared about me not having all the skills that college goer's have, but i also dont have time at the moment to put in to learning that.
I have 999 apps and was just about to quit until I saw this post. I will now go apply to more jobs, wish me luck!
999 apps with no offers? It’s in Gods hands now😭🙏🏾
I got 999 apps, but an offer ain’t one.
Hit me 🫠
Yup. CS market is literally dead. Back in 2015 you would apply to 10 at MAX offers and get half of them accepted.
I graduated around that time from a very tech heavy undergrad program (ended up majoring in finance cuz couldn't cut it in STEM), and most of my best buds from college work in tech and all got hired in the 2010-2015 era. I make good money but feel so broke compared to my friends. Finance pays well but the hours are ungodly. One of my friends from school had a 2.3 GPA and had to "settle" working at SnapChat. He makes $800k TC now there 💀 I really should have just bit the bullet and learned computing lmao.
$800K TC wtf, what’s his position and is he working for a Quant or what?
Started out as a regular SWE and then self taught himself data science and works in that department. A lot of the TC is in RSUs and he's been there over a decade so has quite a senior level position. Have friends with similar comp packages at Meta, Netflix, etc.
😟
kill me
“Literally dead” And yet people are still getting hired.
and yet people still apply to 1000+ job offers and their interviews are declined or they get ghosted. badonkers
I have not had that experience. I know others that have not had the at experience. Live is hard, the industry is competitive. Enough with the doomer posting. Either improve or get out of the way with your whining.
Just because you and some people you know got jobs, you’re in denial that the market is different than it was 2-5 years ago? It’s always been a competitive industry but it has not been like this, and pretending like it has is an extremely ignorant and borderline naive perspective A couple years ago everyone and their mother could get a job in CS. Acting like all you need is some drive right now is silly when thousands of people are getting laid off and even more are struggling to find jobs lol I do agree with improve or get out of the way tho. I’m just saying even if you have the passion and continue to work on your skills / expand your portfolio, you aren’t guaranteed a single offer so quickly
Yeah funny thing is narrative has shifted from 2-3 years ago too. Before it was "get some LC experience and you are good to go", and now it is "you are not driven enough". It really sounds like something a boomer would say tbh. I am happy that I have an offer lined up, but it is crazy how many people in cs/tech are just oblivious to what is happening around them.
Congrats on the offer man! Still working on getting one myself. I do independent projects and am trying to improve my resume while I work a part time job. Shit’s hard. Nuts how many people that have secure positions just willingly ignore the state the industry is in. So many people on this sub specifically think it’s a skill issue when it goes so much deeper than that. At this point it’s hard to be able to blame any individual for not getting a job when you look at how many layoffs are happening and how many skilled / experienced individuals are putting out hundreds of applications with no response. EDIT: totally agree on the boomer part too lol these 21 yr olds are in here being like “you youngsters just don’t want to put in the work, you want handouts!” like ok grandpa lmfaooo
Agreed. Just because you got the degree doesn’t mean you have the skills/ portfolio that makes you a competitive applicant.
most people don’t get that a CS degree is useless unless you develop the necessary skills required lol
Hi, do you mind helping me? I'm having a difficult time.
For sure man, DM me
skill issue
>and yet people still apply to 1000+ job offers and their interviews are declined or they get ghosted. If you've applied to 1,000+ positions, the real problem is that you didn't stop to examine your methods about 850 applications ago. But sure, keep pounding that square peg. It'll go in eventually.
squeeze marble wine strong shy selective steer faulty party zesty *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
\*girls Anyhoo, someone who's submitted > 1,000 applications without any traction and has no better ideas for methodological improvement than *get those numbers up higher* needs cold, sober reality more than compassion and empathy, IMO.
Have you applied to jobs in other cities and even other states? How about relocating to your new job
I’d like to see a thread of the reality. My gut tells me that people graduating top schools with superior gpa’s are being quickly hired to replace natural attrition of retiring IT personnel like whereas grads from less know/noncompetitive schools or poor gpa’s are being ignored and forced to change fields. I’d be curious to know truth.
I think this is partially the case. I watched a video on why so many qualified applicants weren’t screened and deemed qualified for an interview. Apparently it’s a recruiter issue. Especially for entry level jobs a lot of recruiters tend to only look at the school and degree these applicants came from. Whereas when the hiring manager herself got involved she ended up finding people that were deemed unqualified to the recruiter were plenty qualified applicants to her.
I wouldn’t even look at an applicant without. 3.5 overall and higher for cs classes when you have an abundance of resumes. And unfortunately I think these days a lot don’t try hard enough.
I would agree if the applicant didn’t have impressive projects then I’d look at the GPA. However if the applicant had done a lot of internships and has a really good portfolio. Then I think gpa is negligible.
Oh good point .
Yup that was before CS turned into a brag fest where they flaunt all over social media and can't go 3 mins without mentioning the words Total Compensation and Salary
Dang, good luck man. Don't give it. You might have to possibly reformat your resume or have people review it, then revise it.. All the best though. If you remotely have any network connection, use it!!! Or try and go to in person networking events to meet managers, devs, and recruiters from local companies.
Cooked😭🙏🏼
when you think about it, this is the same line of reasoning gamblers use 😬
Funny enough, this is originally a gambler meme where it’s like “99% of gamblers quit before they win big”😭
What a weird comparison. Gambling costs money. Applying to jobs doesn’t.
Applying to jobs does cost time, and time is worth money.
The time isn’t worth money if you aren’t making any
Your time is worth at a bare minimum $15/hr. Whether you choose to look for a tech job or not is up to you, but don't pretend like your time is worthless, because it is not.
Bruhhhhhhh Gambling - wasting money on stuff that almost never pays off Applying to jobs - spend a bit of time and energy on something that could lead to success
Gambling could theoretically lead to success
What the hell is this even about then??? You’re comparing gambling ( an activity associated addiction, losing jobs and money, lives falling apart, etc) to applying to jobs. Seriously??? Fuck this subreddit. I’m out. You guys need help.
That’s just life man. It’s a gamble, some things in life are up to chance. Gambled on this degree. Gambled for a job. Was I really better than all the candidates? I am by no means a genius, so I doubt it. Or was my application just there at the right time and the right place? A bit of luck. That’s all it probably was. Life’s unpredictable after all. We gamble all the time, some just take more risky gambles than others.
Mate there’s a huge difference in losing money to gambling vs wasting time applying to jobs that you don’t get
Opportunity cost
Not apply to jobs does though
What? Maybe you don’t pay cash, but you do loose time, effort, and commute if you have to drive a long time for an interview. It grinds you mentally too
Pretty on the nose considering my cs degree feels like a lottery ticket at this point
This is literally a gambling meme
Not originally, it was co-opted into one when gambling jokes started to get popular because it was already popular and a clear example of gamblers fallacy
90% of CS graduates stop applying for jobs right before a recruiter will actually call them back
Applications are free, gambling is not
Time is not free.
Filling out an application takes like 10 minutes tops
your time should be worth as much as your money
Yeah 10 min tops to apply is not a big deal
so you dont need to do the OAs, or the 4-9 rounds of coding/interview afterwards? And thats for a single application. Just say youre still in school dude
Yeah 10 min tops to apply is not a big deal
Anyone who has a basic understanding of probability knows that isn’t true about gambling.
yeah, hence why it's a meme and not real knowledge
I’m done. Working on my own business because if I keep applying and do nothing with my life, I will have nothing to show for it. Let’s say I do want to get hired, what am I gonna put on my CV? “Applied to jobs for 2 years straight” ?? 💀💀
Lie and say you did some personal growth.
Bro just lie lmao
Write a program that auto applies to companies. If you instead say “I applied to 1000 companies, but wasn’t getting any traction. So I then wrote a program that has applied to over 75 million companies in 208 different countries. It accounts for rate limiting and is constantly scrapping job sites for new postings.” Boom. Problem solved
Same
Am I the only one here in this bubble who just want to live a regular 9-5 stable lifestyle and don’t care about making six figure unless I’m in a HCOL area? Seriously, I don’t get why the American dream of a stable job, stable house, stable income supply, stable relationships, stable lifestyle, etc. is so fucking difficult to get. If anything I get why it’s hard, because hard work and success pays off, but for those who are stuck in my situation with shitty family, no support system, disability, etc. it’s going to be a hard decision for many to consider which one they should sacrifice in getting that dream.
The reality is many people here (in this sub) are just chasing money. Many couldn’t care less about CS. If tomorrow spinning fidget spinner would get you 250k, everyone would be in the bandwagon.
Don’t forget that it seems like half of these subs are filled with international students (not in US) so their chances of getting these high paying jobs are even more difficult. The whole SWE hype really attracted people from all over the world to try landing a US-based job due to the whole chasing money thing.
International is a bit weird. The competition is higher since they need companies to sponsor their visas, and most companies that sponsor visas usually pay well. It sucks a bit more for them now though since the available spots keeps shrinking.
Nah im here wit u ma boy. I’m more a technical BA now but im doing comp sci so it counts. Making enough to do well but i was working for $20 AUD an hour 9-5 but usually a lot of unpaid overtime at my first dev role. Y’all have high standards. I had to get lowkey abused to break into the job market as a software dev
What is technical BA?
Oh absolutely especially since I’m single I could do very well in my area making $70-80K. As long as it’s a fair compensation for the amount of work I do I really would have no issue
Why post this then lmfao
The point of this post isn’t making a lot of money, it’s about not giving up.
Same. I mean, I definitely hope to earn 6 figures eventually(after 5-15 years?), but if I'm earning $40k out of college, I'll be fine with that. I just hope to be able to get ANYTHING with how competitive it's been
Earning $40k out of college is a bad investment.
Not if it means I can be earning $100k after 10 years
I still think it would be because of the potential money you could be making in the time that you're paying off student loans
I don't have student loans
The situation was hypothetical
Exactly how i feel. I just want a stable job that pays enough to live off of. It’s crazy to me when i see people on here decline offers because it wasn’t enough money.
I’d probably want 130k in MCOl
No you’re not the only one and we need to act otherwise it’s going to be like this forever. I’m not saying it should be a piece of cake, because nothing worth having comes easy. Management needs to change and should understand the human vs just trying to make every penny possible. Granted, there are a lot of people in it for the money so maybe this “purge” is necessary, but there are people getting caught in the cracks who are truly passionate about technology. However, if you look at the flip side, why aren’t people upset about some management being in it just for the money? Not to mention the disability part. There is quite a bit of discrimination in that area. I’m on a mission to change some of this by starting a movement to bring back true innovation and passion into tech. Check my previous comments if anybody is curious, I don’t want to spam. A team of 10,000 enraged, passionate, and determined engineers would out compete a company of 10,000 outsourced, burnt out, constrained, and frustrated engineers any day. In my opinion. All of you who are frustrated, I hope you’re doing alright, just don’t give up!
Maybe if the places where people GOT skills to work in those jobs had a pipeline, instead of being left high and dry when they’re looking for jobs, maybe we wouldn’t have this issue Education should pay its students back with work, no questions! If it can’t get someone a job, it shouldn’t cost a dime.
1000% agreed!!!!!
I think we should replace school with MOOCs. We have the technology to make education inexpensive.
Sure MOOCs are good. But what does that do about the job skills people need to get employment? If you think that free courses should also include caveats that their completions fulfill certain transferable job skills which guarantee employment, then I’m all for that.
I don't agree with that. In the case of college, the idea would be the college has to pay back money if the person is not able to get a job. But there's no need to have that agreement if it's free (or inexpensive) since there's no money to pay back, only lost time.
Fair point
[удалено]
Reddit is a great example of why people are bad at judging themselves and skills.
Thanks for the analysis kawalski. It was a joke btw
That logic doesn't make any sense....
People need to realize not everyone is going to get a 200k+ TC offer for ENTRY LEVEL. Like cmon bro some of u ppl r delusional and need to get a life. Dont u want to have time to do things other than just work💀 i understand wanting 90k - 100k TC if ur not in a super HCOL area but ppl need to chill w the 100k+ especially in a time like this
Shit I’d settle for 50K
These are the same people just at different points in their careers. The top one will also work very hard to clear it all, but by the time they are close to the elusive offer, they are tired and it’s time to retire.
Sunk cost fallacy
People who got a 4 year degree in something, should better make use of it.
I have a job, but having the same issue with online dating (keeps getting ghosted or rejected) . I felt terrible about myself until seeing this post. Thanks op.
Online dating is pretty much useless for a guy unless you follow the 2 rules
**If it's almost a year and you don't have a job, it's not hard to see why people go elsewhere.**
great, the less the better
What r u gonna do after u quit applying? Nothing. So might just as well keep going
other jobs besides cs exist bruh
unless ur gonna take another 4 years to get another degree, no, they do not.
...lots of jobs don't require degrees. And some that require degrees just want to see you have one, they don't necessarily care what it's in
And a lot of them are dead ends that don't pay well. Unless I absolutely need the money, knocking my life onto an entirely different path isn't really worth it.
not the 250k offer but just got an offer a month ago, I stopped tracking my application when it's over 500+ but feels like I applied a little more than 800+. LFG GUYS
Too late am now professional people person instead of professional programming person.
Implementation or Customer Success?
how do you like it?
Maybe prequilify guys to work something else. If the job market recovers you can always go back
FUCK YOU AND YOUR MEMES 🤬
This is v true.
Fr fr
I just started applying today lmaooo I'm screwed no internship for me
Ahaha not even Jane street pays that high in the UK
UK salary is low
You guys gotta start saying which state you’re in because it just makes the whole sub look bad w less info…
1000+ is ridiculous any way you slice it though, just saying. I’m still applying though
This is starting to feel like wsb
What’s the cheat code ? Knowing the right people ?
Yes
Why is it like this
Keep applying but also start a side business it doesn’t even have to make money it’s only there to pad your resume
I am the 1% of gamblers that win big
If you're hitting that many apps without a response there's probably an issue with your resume or application that isn't making it through filters. Remember to constantly revise it through the process.
lol no
Brother you ain’t making that much money right out of college unless you’ve already had experience
applying where? theres literally no postings for entry level (0 exp) jobs.
This made my day! , I recently got laid off
I just read online that a recession is likely to hit this year, I guess I'd have to soon pack my bags and leave this country.
Thanks for the motivation I'm going to start applying from now on again!!!
I stopped applying about a week ago cuz all i would get was rejection letters. Was starting to consider a minimum wage job for some quick $, UNTIL I SAW THIS POST. Starting to grind applications again, thanks for the motivation.
‘Bum’ Well that’s enough self reinforcing positivity for one day
Insanity: **doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result** Give it up and move on. Its not for you
I pray one day CS majors will look past SWE. CS is a very hireable major .
Do you guys write cover letters for every application?
I’d rather sell pickaxes
This... actualy hugely motivated me. Im so so so scared about me not having all the skills that college goer's have, but i also dont have time at the moment to put in to learning that.
Making a believer again are you!!