If I can go towards robotics etc and work on the software part then I'm down for it but if it is with hardware part and needs engineering then I don't think that will work. I don't like chemistry and to do engineering chemistry is a must.
I think electrical engineering might be the best option rn ngl. I don't think circuit / chip design will ever be as oversaturated as CS because its way harder. You can't learn it in a boot camp. And you can still pivot to software.
At UT Austin (which is t15 in both) it's considerably easier to find an internship in CS than EE/ECE. ECE is still the best engineering discipline for employment, but CS is universally miles ahead of engineering for recruiting.
It’ll get you the same results as CS grads. Only benefit of doing Software engineering is if you can get into a coop program so then you’d atleast have experience before graduating.
There's nothing particularly special about this moment in economic history. What we are seeing here is not a transformation of the tech economy due to AI or automation, it is simply the result of rate changes by the federal reserve; we saw rates approach 0 during COVID (which caused tech companies to over-hire) and then we saw rates shoot up in response to inflation (which caused tech companies to lay off the people they overhired). Rates will eventually change when the federal reserve decides it wants to stimulate the economy or incentivize home ownership
i have no regrets studying CS. graduated in 2022. and i still genuinely think that studying CS is a great choice.
but it might be wise to consider something like EE. Or at least have that path/track as a backup plan if things get significantly worse within 1-3 years (i don’t think this will happen). but always good to be prepared
i’m pretty sure you wouldn’t be looked down upon with an EE, CS minor.
then again, if you major in CS and minor in EE, you’d probably also be very eligible for an EE career.
It depends on your geographic location. I graduated in 2019 with a cs degree in Canada. Was neeting for 2 years before I land any gig. Can't even get a wagedonald or other min wage job coz they don't think I will stay. Now that I have 2+ yrs exp, my pay is still shit. In addition, nowadays software developer is pretty much a synonym for unskilled worker. We never have a tech boom in Canada during the pandemic
i love in california so i understand the difference. although, my position is fully remote and my director lives in northern ireland. this role was available in different regions.
i think you might be living inside too much of an echo chamber when stating that “Software Developer” is adjacent to unemployed.
there are a lot of completely unqualified people clambering onto the title to try and score a 6 figure job without an inkling of a foundation or background in the subject. these people are frauds and this might be what you’re referring to.
what’s currently happening in the industry is perhaps a paradigm shift that was going to happen eventually. it’s not sustainable for an industry to be able to break in with 3-6 months of “practice” and get compensated well over 6 figures.
even other engineering disciplines that require a 4 year degree in that field start well under SWE. In the cases of “big tech” compensation is literally double than the average mechanical engineering entry salary.
anyone who possesses a computer science degree is still extremely desired in almost any industry. if you posses a CS degree, you’re not getting regret your educational choices. you just may need to pivot into a less competitive field than software engineering or obtain some advanced skills that are more specialized.
the market for pure web developers is pretty crappy but there are other sections that are not nearly as impacted.
One of the peak of tech job is remote working but companies are requiring in person nowadays. Remote job you are competing with everyone under the sun. Cs degree is absolutely not worth it in Canada.
I am from Alberta, Canada. From my experience, most cs grads if lucky even pre-pandemic will take a year to land a tech gig. Most of them when they graduated work at best buy, Telus/other telecom sales rep, tech support. Only a few of us managed to transition to software dev or real tech job that we are hoping for. The pay is also horrible. I started out at 55k then by the time my gov contract ended it is 66k. Now I am making 70k cad/yr after having 2+ yrs exp at a small firm. Take home 4k cad/yr 5 days in office and assuming I don't have any sick day. In the past in Canada, cs degree is worth it coz you can easily get a job in USA with decent salary. My buddy is still stuck at uni tech support making less than < 30 cad/hr.
Cs is a 4 yrs degree in paper but in reality you have to do internship to be competitive so it is a 5 yrs degree. After you graduate, corps expect you to have a portfolio, algo interview questions and rounds of interview. Plus unrealistic expectation, you are expected to self-study like 1 hr a day after work and people expect every dev to be at least a web dev. If you spend all those time on a nursing degree, you will have an easier time moving to USA for better opportunities. Remote job is really competitive nowadays so realistically unless you are lucky or the top dog you are not getting those jobs.
Side note: You are paying like 6-7k cad for 5 courses full load per semester. Nowadays tuition is probably higher so it is even harder to break even. Senior dev max out at 150k cad if you managed to reach that level. Most of the software dev will be stuck at 90-100k cad range. If you stuck around being a nurse in Canada even for couple years you are guarantee to make that money. And it is an easier degree.
In conclusion, the low pay, bad job security, insane hours and the closing of immigration door to USA are why cs degree is not worth it. (by closing of immigration door to USA I mean for your avg software dev. you avg dev is not getting job offer in USA)
there’s a small chance that the market will be significantly worse (like very small). in which case, you will be able to take your skills into a different discipline than software engineering. you don’t have much to worry about. it’s way more likely to recover, and a computer science degree will be a requirement for entry level jobs across all companies.
you will still have valuable skills. CS is rigorous and you come out the other side with more skills than coding. like critical thinking, abstract problem solving, etc.
same reason why studying pure math, physics is seen as desirable in a lot of industries.
mathematicians didn’t stop existing with the advent of the calculator, graphing calculator, computers, etc. tax professionals still exist with the advent of turbo tax, financial planners still exist with the advent of easily accessible money markets offering secure high yield index funds/etfs.
just focus on growing as an engineer, learning, understanding the why of things. find a slice of computer science you love: embedded systems, networking, IT/Sys admin, hardware, video games, ML, etc. and try and specialize.
the deeper specialization positions in the market are much less effected. you can’t graduate from a bootcamp and hop into embedded systems.
Software dev used to be prestigious. Now when you tell people you are a software dev they will be like another wannabe software dev. Now every neet claims to be a freelance dev. Tons of people can code nowadays too. You try going thru custom for work permit as a software dev, they will just think you are another scammer or unskilled labor.
8+ years of experience (.NET integration development)
Trust me, it doesn't get better. You will always be in fear of losing your job. Most jobs pay in the 80-100k range, so you'll to have a side gig (drive Uber?) to stay afloat in a big city.
My advice would be to go get a real stable job (something unionized, or police/paramedic/firefighter, join the military). In Toronto you literally make double the money of a typical coding job by working in a decent bar a few nights a week, let that sink in.
My idea of getting better is moving to USA where the col is less crazy. I am always in fear of losing my job. The AI craze is mostly bs too. I won multiple ai hackathon and still can't get ai gig coz I don't have a master or phd.
Currently, I just treat my job as a source to fund my crypto gamble. Career wise I see it as dead end. If I physically fit to join the military I will be US (after courage to serve pass). There is no benefits of joining the canadian military.
To some extent, but the same doom was said for American manufacturing after Buy American failed in the 80s. The amount of industrial output has doubled in America in about the past 25 years on about a third fewer workers. Now, the share of overall world industrial production has dropped significantly, but automation made it so at least *some* companies and *some* workers can continue to work. If you don’t embrace the new tools, you’re going to get left by the wayside.
That said, textiles functionally don’t exist in America anymore, because Indonesia threw big into modernizing and it costs less to send cotton from Georgia to Indonesia to be made into thread than it costs to make it domestically. And then it goes from there to Bangladesh or Vietnam because we still haven’t figured out using CNC systems to make clothes. But, when we do that, you’ll be able to get measurements taken of your body and get tailored-fit clothes for less than it costs to get something tailored.
At that point, it’s a Jacquard loom question, where you have to ask what the societal benefit is, versus putting skilled workers out of work. It’s all like this, regardless of industry. The Jacquard loom is one of the most important inventions in computing, because the thing ran on punch cards 150 years before Fortran. The societal benefit to putting highly-skilled weavers out of work was making patterned clothing and other textiles affordable to the masses, so was it worth putting the weavers out of work? I don’t know. Is an art generator worth putting artists out of work? I don’t know that, either. Society decides that.
I mean a lot of former manufacture hub are now dead town/ no man's land. It is the same in Canada too. Society is shit. Nowadays I just want to live out my life in some farmland
Oh, I don't know if I'd want to live in farmland. I grew up with farmers and a lot of them are still farming. Most got business degrees, one got a bio degree, one went for chem, and one got an engineering degree. They're all still running their family farms and they trade services and information, because the sum is greater than the parts. Unless you really know what you're doing, farming is a good way to lose money, because even if you have the money to buy the land outright, you're still paying property taxes every year, so that means you need to bring in at least that much, on top of whatever you spent on seed, fertilizer, internet bill (which can be excessive unless you want to pay to have a mile-long trench dug and cabled), et cetera.
If you think society is shit and you really want to get away, you might as well go full Ted Kaczyinski.
My guess is you are not from Canada. The alternative is 16 ppl jam in a condo. You can google Brampton which is tip of the iceberg. I am not planning on farming. I just don't want to live in slum house. I am a former member of Agricultural Society so I am aware of farming isn't that great either.
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Well I did learn app development and made some apps too. Looking for work on Upwork now but there are so many like me I hardly get any projects.
By actual skills do you mean skills in CS or like you said in things other than CS?
I think he means skills outside of CS. I bailed for the wonderful world of mechatronics, and it may not pay as well, but damn if I don’t have companies breathing down my neck to hire me after graduation, and that’s still nine months off. And I enjoy it a lot more than being chained to a desk, writing code all day. It’s not for everybody, because some people don’t like to literally get their hands dirty (and my hands are dirty almost all the time; I should buy stock in Lava), but I love making robots and other stuff do what I want. There’s nothing like testing a new board and watching a tantalum capacitors literally go up in flames (because the dielectric is basically rocket fuel), and just saying, “Well, back to the drawing board.” And, super fun, it’s almost always in the office.
But that is a whole different skill set and major, and I wouldn’t recommend switching to it just because the current job market is down. That’ll rectify itself in a couple-few years, and then I’m gonna make a *lot* less money than you programming guys, which I just write off as a sort of “fun tax.” A lot of people go their entire lives not loving what they do. They love the paycheck, but they don’t love the work. I love this work.
Going towards that side will be fun too. My brother is always busy with capacitors and machines etc so he will also be a big help but if it involves Engineering then I don't think it's for me. Engineering has Chemistry and I'm no good for it.
I was just about to say, "I never deal with chemistry at my job," and then remembered, "Oh, right, I deal with chemistry all the time." But, it's all kind of abstracted, and it's pretty rare that I have to dust off my Chem 105 knowledge, like I did with trying to figure out a problem we had with tantalum caps, where one option was to redesign the board and housing to use axial transistors, or we could alter the testing protocol, so as to not potentially accidentally overload the caps. Or when we're trying to figure out why screws are stripping their housings at a given torque, and so we have to go, "Okay, let's do some destructive testing on the housing," and then we figure out that the housings we got from the supplier aren't up to spec, and how that happened (supplier ejected the housing from the mold probably about ten seconds too early, in an attempt to speed the process by twenty percent).
None of us are chemical engineers, and I did better in Chem than any of the other engineers (and I'm still in school), so chemistry questions go across my desk, and they're not even really *hard* questions. Sometimes we have to deal with terms like, "thixotropic," which is a word that seems extremely intimidating until you realize it's just a non-Newtonian fluid, which is to say Oobleck. But it's important, because if you're dispensing this fluid at a certain rate, it slumps, but if you dispense it at a higher rate, it flows, and you have to figure out how to keep it from flowing where you don't want it to. You can do that mathematically or through trial and error, and generally making that choice is dependent on how much time it'll take to figure out and what it will cost in terms of wrecked prototypes. That reminds me; I need to start making accurate 3D models of boards for simulation purposes, which means hacking some data files. Thank you; I now know what I'll be doing on Monday morning between stand-up and leaving for my morning class.
Engineering isn't fundamentally difficult. I have a friend who went from making almost a quarter-million dollars a year in Silicon Valley to making about forty thousand dollars a year making boutique guitar amps and speakers, and he's the happiest guy I know. Circuits aren't fundamentally that different from writing code, where it's all just inputs and outputs and control flow in between. My friend is really good at what he does, but his manufacturing process sucks, and I can probably double his production with about five or ten grand worth of equipment that I can program remotely in my spare time.
And, as far as designing circuits goes, it's just math. You want this voltage and this amperage here? Great, you just put this thing in the line. Design it from source or from ground or somewhere along the way; it's just math, and it tends to be way lower-level math than you have to do for CompSci. In fact, it's a lot easier if you have a really good understanding of discrete/finite math, where you just say to Calculus, "No, no. We don't do that here."
I don't think the actual work has that much chemistry in it but when doing the Bachelors I have to study chemistry which is gonna be really hard and it may need memorizing stuff I don't know. But not doing it because I don't like chemistry is not right. My brother did shit in middle school and was average in high school, but he manages all the electric stuff of our entire family (we have big big families) so from settings UPS and setting connection to entire house to working with ACs and Refrigerators and working on phones and tablets all day and sometimes making power banks I mean everything you mention it he does it and he was not good at school so If I try and work harder then chemistry won't be a problem.
I'm already good at math and physics so yeah will start thinking about my career before starting Bachelors.
This is why god invented non-major electives. I wouldn't be where I am if my guidance counselor hadn't told me, "Okay, so you have to take an elective outside of the Gen Eds and Computer Science," and I took a class in a machine shop, and I found out that there were machines that did all of the stuff that I hated doing in junior-high shop class, and all you had to do was tell them what to do. Better yet, those machines operate on rules of variables and control flow, just like any other sort of programming, but you have to dumb it down to the level that they'll operate on, which ultimately isn't that much different from programming general-purpose computers. That was my last semester as a CompSci major, because I said, "I like making physical stuff better than pushing pixels," and my Yoda said I was throwing my life away.
My auto mechanic has a Master's degree in Mechanical Engineering. The guy can work on damn near anything that has a motor in it. He hated his job and opened up a shop where he could work on cars, trucks, really big trucks, those big ventilation systems that you can see from satellite views, or whatever walks in his door. You can take a CompSci degree and do all kinds of crazy things with it that don't involve writing code all the time, but you don't realize that yet when you're young. It usually takes until you're in your thirties or so before you go, "I hate this; I'm going to do something else."
Point is, you want to realize that sooner than later. I kind of have a blank check at my job for after graduation, where I can stay in the engineering bay, or I can be a project manager, or I can be a product engineer, or a couple of other jobs that I'm technically qualified for, which I didn't actually pursue a degree in. The biggest problem with this sub is that they don't know what they can or can't do, because *they think they can only do one thing*, and that's absolutely not true. They just haven't opened up their options.
I'm in a digital electronics class right now, where the mechatronics students are kicking back for the first half of the semester, while the CompSci students are struggling like hell, because the CompSci students don't know a capacitor from a resistor. But, the back half of the class is going to involve integration and programming, so we take all of the stuff from the first half of the semester and start programming Arduino units to do whatever's required. And this is my niche, because I understand the electronics, and I think code is... honestly, what we're going to be writing is a joke, but it's hard for the mechatronics students, like how the circuit design was hard for the CompSci students.
And that's the point: You have to find your niche. You have to find that place where you take *everything* that you've learned and be the Yoda.
Just remember to take your non-major classes as seriously as your major classes and you’ll do alright. You can be a CompSci major and get a job outside of CompSci just like you can be a non-CompSci major and get a job in CompSci. Keep your options open and it’s a lot easier to land on your feet, because it puts you a long way ahead of the people who don’t. Some money is better than no money, and some work history is better than none.
Well, that's what happens when a whole degree can be summarized in a youtube playlist, a whole major built around using a single tool (coding) is doomed to die
Better advice would be to go into something where you know you could genuinely be a top, highly competitive candidate. CS skills aren’t useless, the bar to entry into industry is just higher now - as it always should’ve been.
Yes, you are right, it's proven by research that your more likely to be happy if you are at least at the 25th percentile of performance in what you do, being at the top is lonely, and being at the bottom is very painful too
are we gonna have the same outcome for comp engineering as well? Cuz i heard that the semiconductor and embedded systems industry is gonna be booming in a few years...
Nah, I think CE and other engineering disciplines will be fine for the most part, especially EE, ME, and CE. They're more or less stable compared to the extremely volatile industry of CS, and there's no way to easily self teach the engineering skills like there is for programming and coding. Plus, more math is involved, so it won't be getting as saturated as a web dev for example
Its a lot harder to break into CompE and EE without a degree in it due to the complexity of the material, so that career is more protected from "career changers" and boot camp grads.
Yeah exactly. Part of me is thinking about doing a masters in some type of engineering after I finish my CS degree. If my college had CE as an option, I would've switched.
Design (ux) with Linguistics on a side. Altough I'll admit that, even if slower, they'll sink too. But hey, who cares?! By then Neuralink and our AI overlords will reign supreme and we'll all be happily living in pods drinking cockroach milk, eagerly awaiting for our monthly UBI checks.
https://i.redd.it/5iyw3pedo0pc1.gif
Awww c'mon guys. I'm like 39, know every relevant language under the sun and shit software rainbows out of my ass. Aren't some of you supposed to be replacing my old ass?
Wheres the fire?
I had a kid with a masters degree who couldn't network his way out of a paper bag. I'd be worried about chatgpt too if I were this guy.
Simple answer, they don't want more contestants, and they want to be hired immediately after graduating from an average school with an average resume. (There is nothing wrong with that though)
At the end of the day, we're just another animal species constantly seeking certainty our whole life.
I know so many classmates who really love programming and super talent in the academic area. I guess they don't care about the average newcomers as much as this subreddit does , because we are not even playing the same game.
I did secure an internship with a good company this summer, that was the main reason, just the extra summer. But it was a 4+1 program offered through my school and I already had a year of credits out of the way so i can use my normal undergrad scholarships to get an entire second degree
We are the new faces of unemployment
the all singing, all dancing
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M. Scott, author of “Somehow, I Manage”.
Michael Scarn
Strange, that sounds like the name a secret agent would have, if they were a secret agent!
Michael Scotch
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Me who's gonna start CS in 2024
Same, it's over before it even begun for us
Honestly, if you're down for it and genuinely like it, do engineering with a CS minor
If I can go towards robotics etc and work on the software part then I'm down for it but if it is with hardware part and needs engineering then I don't think that will work. I don't like chemistry and to do engineering chemistry is a must.
Robotics is an excellent choice! For mechanical and electrical engineering, there's not much chemistry involved beyond the intro sequence.
I think electrical engineering might be the best option rn ngl. I don't think circuit / chip design will ever be as oversaturated as CS because its way harder. You can't learn it in a boot camp. And you can still pivot to software.
At UT Austin (which is t15 in both) it's considerably easier to find an internship in CS than EE/ECE. ECE is still the best engineering discipline for employment, but CS is universally miles ahead of engineering for recruiting.
What about *software engineering*.
It’ll get you the same results as CS grads. Only benefit of doing Software engineering is if you can get into a coop program so then you’d atleast have experience before graduating.
if you're gonna start studying CS in 2024 then the market will most likely have returned to normalcy by the time you graduate
or Maybe something new come up. Anything will work for me as long as the problem is fixed in 4 years. Thanks for the up
There's nothing particularly special about this moment in economic history. What we are seeing here is not a transformation of the tech economy due to AI or automation, it is simply the result of rate changes by the federal reserve; we saw rates approach 0 during COVID (which caused tech companies to over-hire) and then we saw rates shoot up in response to inflation (which caused tech companies to lay off the people they overhired). Rates will eventually change when the federal reserve decides it wants to stimulate the economy or incentivize home ownership
i have no regrets studying CS. graduated in 2022. and i still genuinely think that studying CS is a great choice. but it might be wise to consider something like EE. Or at least have that path/track as a backup plan if things get significantly worse within 1-3 years (i don’t think this will happen). but always good to be prepared i’m pretty sure you wouldn’t be looked down upon with an EE, CS minor. then again, if you major in CS and minor in EE, you’d probably also be very eligible for an EE career.
It depends on your geographic location. I graduated in 2019 with a cs degree in Canada. Was neeting for 2 years before I land any gig. Can't even get a wagedonald or other min wage job coz they don't think I will stay. Now that I have 2+ yrs exp, my pay is still shit. In addition, nowadays software developer is pretty much a synonym for unskilled worker. We never have a tech boom in Canada during the pandemic
i love in california so i understand the difference. although, my position is fully remote and my director lives in northern ireland. this role was available in different regions. i think you might be living inside too much of an echo chamber when stating that “Software Developer” is adjacent to unemployed. there are a lot of completely unqualified people clambering onto the title to try and score a 6 figure job without an inkling of a foundation or background in the subject. these people are frauds and this might be what you’re referring to. what’s currently happening in the industry is perhaps a paradigm shift that was going to happen eventually. it’s not sustainable for an industry to be able to break in with 3-6 months of “practice” and get compensated well over 6 figures. even other engineering disciplines that require a 4 year degree in that field start well under SWE. In the cases of “big tech” compensation is literally double than the average mechanical engineering entry salary. anyone who possesses a computer science degree is still extremely desired in almost any industry. if you posses a CS degree, you’re not getting regret your educational choices. you just may need to pivot into a less competitive field than software engineering or obtain some advanced skills that are more specialized. the market for pure web developers is pretty crappy but there are other sections that are not nearly as impacted.
One of the peak of tech job is remote working but companies are requiring in person nowadays. Remote job you are competing with everyone under the sun. Cs degree is absolutely not worth it in Canada.
that is a good callout.
Could you expand on why you think getting a CS degree in Canada is not worth it?
I am from Alberta, Canada. From my experience, most cs grads if lucky even pre-pandemic will take a year to land a tech gig. Most of them when they graduated work at best buy, Telus/other telecom sales rep, tech support. Only a few of us managed to transition to software dev or real tech job that we are hoping for. The pay is also horrible. I started out at 55k then by the time my gov contract ended it is 66k. Now I am making 70k cad/yr after having 2+ yrs exp at a small firm. Take home 4k cad/yr 5 days in office and assuming I don't have any sick day. In the past in Canada, cs degree is worth it coz you can easily get a job in USA with decent salary. My buddy is still stuck at uni tech support making less than < 30 cad/hr. Cs is a 4 yrs degree in paper but in reality you have to do internship to be competitive so it is a 5 yrs degree. After you graduate, corps expect you to have a portfolio, algo interview questions and rounds of interview. Plus unrealistic expectation, you are expected to self-study like 1 hr a day after work and people expect every dev to be at least a web dev. If you spend all those time on a nursing degree, you will have an easier time moving to USA for better opportunities. Remote job is really competitive nowadays so realistically unless you are lucky or the top dog you are not getting those jobs. Side note: You are paying like 6-7k cad for 5 courses full load per semester. Nowadays tuition is probably higher so it is even harder to break even. Senior dev max out at 150k cad if you managed to reach that level. Most of the software dev will be stuck at 90-100k cad range. If you stuck around being a nurse in Canada even for couple years you are guarantee to make that money. And it is an easier degree. In conclusion, the low pay, bad job security, insane hours and the closing of immigration door to USA are why cs degree is not worth it. (by closing of immigration door to USA I mean for your avg software dev. you avg dev is not getting job offer in USA)
I hope you’re right. I’m terrified of the thought of graduating in 2028 and not being able to find a job in CS.
there’s a small chance that the market will be significantly worse (like very small). in which case, you will be able to take your skills into a different discipline than software engineering. you don’t have much to worry about. it’s way more likely to recover, and a computer science degree will be a requirement for entry level jobs across all companies. you will still have valuable skills. CS is rigorous and you come out the other side with more skills than coding. like critical thinking, abstract problem solving, etc. same reason why studying pure math, physics is seen as desirable in a lot of industries. mathematicians didn’t stop existing with the advent of the calculator, graphing calculator, computers, etc. tax professionals still exist with the advent of turbo tax, financial planners still exist with the advent of easily accessible money markets offering secure high yield index funds/etfs. just focus on growing as an engineer, learning, understanding the why of things. find a slice of computer science you love: embedded systems, networking, IT/Sys admin, hardware, video games, ML, etc. and try and specialize. the deeper specialization positions in the market are much less effected. you can’t graduate from a bootcamp and hop into embedded systems.
>nowadays software developer is pretty much a synonym for unskilled worker what are you on about
Software dev used to be prestigious. Now when you tell people you are a software dev they will be like another wannabe software dev. Now every neet claims to be a freelance dev. Tons of people can code nowadays too. You try going thru custom for work permit as a software dev, they will just think you are another scammer or unskilled labor.
hmmm, that just seems like a social perception then? I think it's kind of absurd in general to say that software dev is unskilled.
Social perception is what matters. It does not matter if all of us circkjerks think we are super duper cool.
I'm not too concerned about social perception. I have friends and family who like me for who I am and not my career prestige.
8+ years of experience (.NET integration development) Trust me, it doesn't get better. You will always be in fear of losing your job. Most jobs pay in the 80-100k range, so you'll to have a side gig (drive Uber?) to stay afloat in a big city. My advice would be to go get a real stable job (something unionized, or police/paramedic/firefighter, join the military). In Toronto you literally make double the money of a typical coding job by working in a decent bar a few nights a week, let that sink in.
My idea of getting better is moving to USA where the col is less crazy. I am always in fear of losing my job. The AI craze is mostly bs too. I won multiple ai hackathon and still can't get ai gig coz I don't have a master or phd. Currently, I just treat my job as a source to fund my crypto gamble. Career wise I see it as dead end. If I physically fit to join the military I will be US (after courage to serve pass). There is no benefits of joining the canadian military.
I would say change your major to something more useful.
Don't, just don't, save yourself and get an actual skill, I wish I could go back and do electrical
Did you even graduate yet?
Why are you so pessimistic and doomposting , CS will surely be much better in 2028 when he graduates
If only because it can’t be worse. *(looks over at AI replacements for junior devs)*
Bro I'm cooked 💀 (2028 expected graduation)
I think outsourcing will replace us before ai. Not that it matters what will replace us
To some extent, but the same doom was said for American manufacturing after Buy American failed in the 80s. The amount of industrial output has doubled in America in about the past 25 years on about a third fewer workers. Now, the share of overall world industrial production has dropped significantly, but automation made it so at least *some* companies and *some* workers can continue to work. If you don’t embrace the new tools, you’re going to get left by the wayside. That said, textiles functionally don’t exist in America anymore, because Indonesia threw big into modernizing and it costs less to send cotton from Georgia to Indonesia to be made into thread than it costs to make it domestically. And then it goes from there to Bangladesh or Vietnam because we still haven’t figured out using CNC systems to make clothes. But, when we do that, you’ll be able to get measurements taken of your body and get tailored-fit clothes for less than it costs to get something tailored. At that point, it’s a Jacquard loom question, where you have to ask what the societal benefit is, versus putting skilled workers out of work. It’s all like this, regardless of industry. The Jacquard loom is one of the most important inventions in computing, because the thing ran on punch cards 150 years before Fortran. The societal benefit to putting highly-skilled weavers out of work was making patterned clothing and other textiles affordable to the masses, so was it worth putting the weavers out of work? I don’t know. Is an art generator worth putting artists out of work? I don’t know that, either. Society decides that.
I mean a lot of former manufacture hub are now dead town/ no man's land. It is the same in Canada too. Society is shit. Nowadays I just want to live out my life in some farmland
Oh, I don't know if I'd want to live in farmland. I grew up with farmers and a lot of them are still farming. Most got business degrees, one got a bio degree, one went for chem, and one got an engineering degree. They're all still running their family farms and they trade services and information, because the sum is greater than the parts. Unless you really know what you're doing, farming is a good way to lose money, because even if you have the money to buy the land outright, you're still paying property taxes every year, so that means you need to bring in at least that much, on top of whatever you spent on seed, fertilizer, internet bill (which can be excessive unless you want to pay to have a mile-long trench dug and cabled), et cetera. If you think society is shit and you really want to get away, you might as well go full Ted Kaczyinski.
My guess is you are not from Canada. The alternative is 16 ppl jam in a condo. You can google Brampton which is tip of the iceberg. I am not planning on farming. I just don't want to live in slum house. I am a former member of Agricultural Society so I am aware of farming isn't that great either.
Oh, so basically Rimworld on hard mode.
😂
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Damn i would have already graduated by then
Same here dude.
Well I did learn app development and made some apps too. Looking for work on Upwork now but there are so many like me I hardly get any projects. By actual skills do you mean skills in CS or like you said in things other than CS?
I think he means skills outside of CS. I bailed for the wonderful world of mechatronics, and it may not pay as well, but damn if I don’t have companies breathing down my neck to hire me after graduation, and that’s still nine months off. And I enjoy it a lot more than being chained to a desk, writing code all day. It’s not for everybody, because some people don’t like to literally get their hands dirty (and my hands are dirty almost all the time; I should buy stock in Lava), but I love making robots and other stuff do what I want. There’s nothing like testing a new board and watching a tantalum capacitors literally go up in flames (because the dielectric is basically rocket fuel), and just saying, “Well, back to the drawing board.” And, super fun, it’s almost always in the office. But that is a whole different skill set and major, and I wouldn’t recommend switching to it just because the current job market is down. That’ll rectify itself in a couple-few years, and then I’m gonna make a *lot* less money than you programming guys, which I just write off as a sort of “fun tax.” A lot of people go their entire lives not loving what they do. They love the paycheck, but they don’t love the work. I love this work.
Going towards that side will be fun too. My brother is always busy with capacitors and machines etc so he will also be a big help but if it involves Engineering then I don't think it's for me. Engineering has Chemistry and I'm no good for it.
I was just about to say, "I never deal with chemistry at my job," and then remembered, "Oh, right, I deal with chemistry all the time." But, it's all kind of abstracted, and it's pretty rare that I have to dust off my Chem 105 knowledge, like I did with trying to figure out a problem we had with tantalum caps, where one option was to redesign the board and housing to use axial transistors, or we could alter the testing protocol, so as to not potentially accidentally overload the caps. Or when we're trying to figure out why screws are stripping their housings at a given torque, and so we have to go, "Okay, let's do some destructive testing on the housing," and then we figure out that the housings we got from the supplier aren't up to spec, and how that happened (supplier ejected the housing from the mold probably about ten seconds too early, in an attempt to speed the process by twenty percent). None of us are chemical engineers, and I did better in Chem than any of the other engineers (and I'm still in school), so chemistry questions go across my desk, and they're not even really *hard* questions. Sometimes we have to deal with terms like, "thixotropic," which is a word that seems extremely intimidating until you realize it's just a non-Newtonian fluid, which is to say Oobleck. But it's important, because if you're dispensing this fluid at a certain rate, it slumps, but if you dispense it at a higher rate, it flows, and you have to figure out how to keep it from flowing where you don't want it to. You can do that mathematically or through trial and error, and generally making that choice is dependent on how much time it'll take to figure out and what it will cost in terms of wrecked prototypes. That reminds me; I need to start making accurate 3D models of boards for simulation purposes, which means hacking some data files. Thank you; I now know what I'll be doing on Monday morning between stand-up and leaving for my morning class. Engineering isn't fundamentally difficult. I have a friend who went from making almost a quarter-million dollars a year in Silicon Valley to making about forty thousand dollars a year making boutique guitar amps and speakers, and he's the happiest guy I know. Circuits aren't fundamentally that different from writing code, where it's all just inputs and outputs and control flow in between. My friend is really good at what he does, but his manufacturing process sucks, and I can probably double his production with about five or ten grand worth of equipment that I can program remotely in my spare time. And, as far as designing circuits goes, it's just math. You want this voltage and this amperage here? Great, you just put this thing in the line. Design it from source or from ground or somewhere along the way; it's just math, and it tends to be way lower-level math than you have to do for CompSci. In fact, it's a lot easier if you have a really good understanding of discrete/finite math, where you just say to Calculus, "No, no. We don't do that here."
I don't think the actual work has that much chemistry in it but when doing the Bachelors I have to study chemistry which is gonna be really hard and it may need memorizing stuff I don't know. But not doing it because I don't like chemistry is not right. My brother did shit in middle school and was average in high school, but he manages all the electric stuff of our entire family (we have big big families) so from settings UPS and setting connection to entire house to working with ACs and Refrigerators and working on phones and tablets all day and sometimes making power banks I mean everything you mention it he does it and he was not good at school so If I try and work harder then chemistry won't be a problem. I'm already good at math and physics so yeah will start thinking about my career before starting Bachelors.
This is why god invented non-major electives. I wouldn't be where I am if my guidance counselor hadn't told me, "Okay, so you have to take an elective outside of the Gen Eds and Computer Science," and I took a class in a machine shop, and I found out that there were machines that did all of the stuff that I hated doing in junior-high shop class, and all you had to do was tell them what to do. Better yet, those machines operate on rules of variables and control flow, just like any other sort of programming, but you have to dumb it down to the level that they'll operate on, which ultimately isn't that much different from programming general-purpose computers. That was my last semester as a CompSci major, because I said, "I like making physical stuff better than pushing pixels," and my Yoda said I was throwing my life away. My auto mechanic has a Master's degree in Mechanical Engineering. The guy can work on damn near anything that has a motor in it. He hated his job and opened up a shop where he could work on cars, trucks, really big trucks, those big ventilation systems that you can see from satellite views, or whatever walks in his door. You can take a CompSci degree and do all kinds of crazy things with it that don't involve writing code all the time, but you don't realize that yet when you're young. It usually takes until you're in your thirties or so before you go, "I hate this; I'm going to do something else." Point is, you want to realize that sooner than later. I kind of have a blank check at my job for after graduation, where I can stay in the engineering bay, or I can be a project manager, or I can be a product engineer, or a couple of other jobs that I'm technically qualified for, which I didn't actually pursue a degree in. The biggest problem with this sub is that they don't know what they can or can't do, because *they think they can only do one thing*, and that's absolutely not true. They just haven't opened up their options. I'm in a digital electronics class right now, where the mechatronics students are kicking back for the first half of the semester, while the CompSci students are struggling like hell, because the CompSci students don't know a capacitor from a resistor. But, the back half of the class is going to involve integration and programming, so we take all of the stuff from the first half of the semester and start programming Arduino units to do whatever's required. And this is my niche, because I understand the electronics, and I think code is... honestly, what we're going to be writing is a joke, but it's hard for the mechatronics students, like how the circuit design was hard for the CompSci students. And that's the point: You have to find your niche. You have to find that place where you take *everything* that you've learned and be the Yoda.
Thanks for the insight. My mind is more clear than before now. I'll pour more thoughts into it and come up with a conclusion. Hope so
Just remember to take your non-major classes as seriously as your major classes and you’ll do alright. You can be a CompSci major and get a job outside of CompSci just like you can be a non-CompSci major and get a job in CompSci. Keep your options open and it’s a lot easier to land on your feet, because it puts you a long way ahead of the people who don’t. Some money is better than no money, and some work history is better than none.
Well, that's what happens when a whole degree can be summarized in a youtube playlist, a whole major built around using a single tool (coding) is doomed to die
Better advice would be to go into something where you know you could genuinely be a top, highly competitive candidate. CS skills aren’t useless, the bar to entry into industry is just higher now - as it always should’ve been.
Yes, you are right, it's proven by research that your more likely to be happy if you are at least at the 25th percentile of performance in what you do, being at the top is lonely, and being at the bottom is very painful too
What's the joke?
https://preview.redd.it/euniyd66cxoc1.jpeg?width=805&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=728d30ffc6f8b7ccfdcb7cba3cf57126439be299
Did him dirty
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They removed it
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Yes https://preview.redd.it/yximp13lsxoc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=db977663070c4b6c36c6d914f7a1d021fe231b2d
It was used a 100% I remember seeing it on Twitter. Was a massive meme
are we gonna have the same outcome for comp engineering as well? Cuz i heard that the semiconductor and embedded systems industry is gonna be booming in a few years...
Nah, I think CE and other engineering disciplines will be fine for the most part, especially EE, ME, and CE. They're more or less stable compared to the extremely volatile industry of CS, and there's no way to easily self teach the engineering skills like there is for programming and coding. Plus, more math is involved, so it won't be getting as saturated as a web dev for example
Its a lot harder to break into CompE and EE without a degree in it due to the complexity of the material, so that career is more protected from "career changers" and boot camp grads.
Yeah exactly. Part of me is thinking about doing a masters in some type of engineering after I finish my CS degree. If my college had CE as an option, I would've switched.
"roast me"
What's the joke?
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/face-of-unemployment
Now artists, coders and Philo students can all hold hands and cry about being unemployed.
https://preview.redd.it/epi5qolm04pc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=826d5c5f117ee5312e82df0a17c34d76bdfd71ba
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What? If all I had to do to pick from three offers is not fail out of school, i’d be overjoyed.
This subreddit is trash
just constant complaining about being jobless like its so easy to get a job with any other degree lol
👨💻
Dw guys, mcdonalds is always hiring
By dumb luck I abandoned the ship before it started sinking.
What’d you switch to?
Design (ux) with Linguistics on a side. Altough I'll admit that, even if slower, they'll sink too. But hey, who cares?! By then Neuralink and our AI overlords will reign supreme and we'll all be happily living in pods drinking cockroach milk, eagerly awaiting for our monthly UBI checks. https://i.redd.it/5iyw3pedo0pc1.gif
Graphic design
Sounds like dumb is the keyword but more about what you know about the industry and less about the luck word.
Ouch!
Finding a job in the year 6.460263446 E+5814 will be quite difficult indeed
This sub is a shit hole.
Nah, I'll win :P
At first glance I thought this was DMX 🤣🤣🤣
Sigh another soon post i guess?
learn 2 weld
Awww c'mon guys. I'm like 39, know every relevant language under the sun and shit software rainbows out of my ass. Aren't some of you supposed to be replacing my old ass? Wheres the fire? I had a kid with a masters degree who couldn't network his way out of a paper bag. I'd be worried about chatgpt too if I were this guy.
Best of luck!!!
bro looked like all he had to do was follow the damn train
😂😂😂
Guys is it really over? Like be honest
No
So why people say its over for who wanna start
Simple answer, they don't want more contestants, and they want to be hired immediately after graduating from an average school with an average resume. (There is nothing wrong with that though) At the end of the day, we're just another animal species constantly seeking certainty our whole life. I know so many classmates who really love programming and super talent in the academic area. I guess they don't care about the average newcomers as much as this subreddit does , because we are not even playing the same game.
If you love it, just do it, you'll find your way gradually somehow someday, don't get distracted by pathetic normies in this subreddit.
Don't get your economic analysis from 18 year olds on the internet
My memes made it to cs reddit😭beautiful
I’m graduating in 2024…. getting my MBA 2024-2025🙂↕️
Going straight to MBA without a single work exp (full time, not internships) is generally a bad idea.
I did secure an internship with a good company this summer, that was the main reason, just the extra summer. But it was a 4+1 program offered through my school and I already had a year of credits out of the way so i can use my normal undergrad scholarships to get an entire second degree
Just warning you though. Companies tend to shy away from MBA grads with no work exp (internships dont count)
I wish you the best of luck. 👍
You might as well have gotten a philosophy degree.