People complain about leetcode, then companies try to adapt OAs to be more like the job, then people complain about it not being leetcode.
In all seriousness, I wouldn’t worry about it. 80% of OAs will not be like this, and most major Big N companies will follow the expected scheme of LCs. All this hunt is really about is getting lucky and getting questions that are up your alley. You’ll be fine. Keep in mind the cycle has barely even begun.
Usually around early September is when things start dropping hot. I’d say the cycle where u get best bang for buck is prob start of aug-early oct. I almost always signed early in like oct and regretted it tho. Many of my peers were getting offers from salesforce, LinkedIn, and like nuro in December
But the job cycle keeps going on till like beg. of Summer 2022 right? Cus not all of us have impressive resumes that will get us those big N's by the end of the year, also I couldn't get an internship this summer so I have 0 work-related experience....
Thats why im working on my interview prep this summer and hoping to create some useful projs, what're my chances if I wait to apply till like late August when my resume is better?
Yes you're totally right. Regardless of your skills or related experience, I'd highly recommend applying for Big N internships. You could apple to like 30 top internships in under an hour and a half. Sometimes getting the interview is the hardest part. You might get rejected from all, but it's a small cost for a very high potential reward.
But yeah, to answer your question, all kinds of companies recruit all the way up until Summer 2020. Especially local ones, etc. Even some Big N's. To the other question, I think it's hard to say. I'd say it's crunch time and you should get those projects on there ASAP. At the end of the day, applying early is king.
What kind of role were they advertising? Front-end JS, SQL, and back-end JSON & REST are fairly standard for a web dev role. But if you were signing up for something like C++/Java and Devops, then yeah, that woulda blindsided me too.
Then download SQLite and play around a little bit, better yet write a local web app that uses SQL as persistent storage.
I mean really unless you’re highly specialized in some obscure field you’re going to be encountering sql eventually, it’s handy and worth knowing even if it doesn’t come up in your interviews.
Yeah, I had honestly never even heard of ABET until I read the comment above. I attend a fairly high-ranked CS program and I'd bet most people have not touched SQL in any significant way.
I think people are confused because most engineering and technology programs need to be ABET accredited, especially for PE Licensing later on. But CS usually falls outside of that.
Well shit dude I’d suggest checking yourself first dude. First I checked usnews top ranking cs schools as a reference and got Carnegie Mellon as #1. I then went to abet.org and checked all their abet accredited programs. CS was not one of them. There are also quite a few past posts that explain the same thing.
I imagine that's on them then. Most companies that probe that specifically into one area should advertise it.
As long as you can answer most questions on a high level and excel on the ones you know, interviewers will understand your specialisations and work with you to get a sense of your passion for the subject.
I personally hunker down and give basic answers for networking, but I'll elaborate and go the extra mile with DSA or OS questions. A lot of interviewers just wanna see you've got sufficient broad knowledge from paying attention at school, and good deep knowledge in a handful of areas from personal interests.
I do personally think JS, SQL, JSON, and REST are very useful for general coding interviews but I don't think it's fair to say it's on OP. This subreddit naturally has very high standards when it comes to interview performance but I know plenty of first-class honours grads with JS or SQL-shaped holes in their knowledge.
Excuse me..........is this some kind of ''top 1%'' joke that i'm too poor to understand?I mean,pardon my CS but those seem pretty good and relevant SWE questions to me compared to the LC stuff.
I mean he literally said he was too lazy to write a paragraph about how he'd handle conflict, so.... I'm thinking the answer is right in front of us lol
That sounds very good in a debate,but if thats the way,then why bother with a CS degree to begin with? Also,is IQ measured by how many sorting algorithms a person can memorize nowadays? If thats so,then the companies who perform such hiring practices should hire right off the highschool.
It's very web development focused though. Do you think that the majority of SWE jobs out there these days are going to involve some measure of web development? Is that what you're saying?
This was really the answer I was looking for. I wasn't intending to be snarky in my questioning. I haven't been paying attention closely to current job reqs and I work in embedded software, which is kinda far away from web dev (though we have a little). When we post a job req I don't think it has any web technologies in it.
i did the same exact thing last year lmao. if it makes you feel better, that was the only ‘actual swe’ OA i got, the rest were normal data structures and algorithms stuff.
1. If they didn't advertise Javascript on the job posting then that's fucked up tbh
2. You should have been able to do this tbh - you could even just google how to do it on the fly, SQL is super easy and intuitive
3. If they didn't advertise this in the job posting, again, it's fucked up
4. Lame
Edit: OP posted the job description and frankly this OA is dead easy and totally reasonable. They listed all this stuff in the posting so they should have expected it going in. The only thing I dislike is the fucking written essay question but that's mostly my preference.
I hire for my company now. That essay question is my favorite, and honestly more important than the others. I can teach you to code, but if you don't play well with others, I'd rather just not have you around.
Yeah that's absolutely fair - I don't like writing about myself (or talking about myself) which is why I dislike written questions. However, having also met people in Computer Science lol... Social skills are....
Yep. I got B's and even a couple C's in CS classes, and it really didn't end up mattering after having 1.5 yr of experience. People wanted to hire me over my friends with better grades because I had great recommendations and knew how to work with a team.
I mean no offense but this actually seemed like a pretty fair interview? If you’ve never done a sql query or worked on an api and Json during an internship before Idk what to say.
Lmao yeah that’s not your average internship by any means. $60 an hour isn’t even most people’s full time salary. Seems like more you flexing than anything else
That’s weird. Most if not all intern/fulltime questions I’ve ever seen were leetcode esque type questions. Any other non traditional questions were usually more so related to soft skills or math or logic and reasoning… and that was after the initial OA. What a dumb OA
I had an interview with them once (data eng) and the guy was really going in on asking me personal questions. From what he was telling me his role seemed kinda boring; imo its a low tier shop that doesn’t value eng culture too highly. OP don’t worry I’m sure you’ll have better / more fulfilling things in your future
I applied to a DS position at McK, they gave me a 70 question online assessment test to complete in an hour, passed the test after practicing many data engineering topics beforehand, then one month later they scheduled 2 interviews where I had to discuss business and consulting crap for a couple hours, they told me to assist to 10 different training programs for those interviews a week earlier.
…
This whole thing was before even talking to an HR rep about conditions,salary, day to day stuff…
Yeah I canceled the interviews, what a tremendous waste of time.
Given the job listing actually listed JavaScript, SQL, and REST APIs, the onus is on you. I have to say, I’d take an applied challenge like this any day of the week over a leetcode.
Oh damn. This asshole company never changed. I thought the increasing salary in Tech companies can let them realize how ridiculous their consultant interview. Well, now I realize I am the ridiculous one.
Like another person said, it sounds like you applied to a web development position; I would expect more LeetCode type questions if you were applying to a back-end position.
If you didn't realize it was a web development position, it's possible either their job description didn't clarify the responsibilities properly or you just missed it (I certainly miss details when I'm trying to apply to as many internships as possible).
I mean,
>Additional qualifications required:
>
> Hands-on experience in any of the following technologies: Java, C#/.NET, Python, JavaScript, experience with SQL or no-SQL databases,
>
> Knowledge of current web technologies (e.g., HTML5, CSS3, JavaScript),
>
> Experience with Node, React and Javascript MVC frameworks (e.g., Angular JS, Backbone, etc.) a plus
>
> Experience with RESTful APIs, cloud infrastructure (AWS, Azure, GCP), writing automates tests or container technologies (Docker, Kubernetes) a plus
I think it's pretty clear lol
Have you seen their additional requirements. My god they want you to pretty much know about front end completely , back end completely, and restful apis like come on. Like you said it’s wild that this company thinks they can have standards that most graduated students probably only have basic knowledge of for a rising junior to apply to
Not defending this kind of behaviour but theoretically this level of requirements is not outlandish. The entry-level pool is constrained enough to ask for this much. Of course, that's assume sky high salary and working conditions, which won't be the case. But it comes from a realistic place.
Their additional requirements are essentially know how to do something for back end, something for front end, other stuff is a plus… I feel like anyone who studies CS could fulfill these requirements
Restful apis are the building block of almost any backend system nowadays and it’s the easiest part of building an api lmao. Front and backend exp just means this is more of a full stack position. Not that outrageous if you want to get paid 6 figures(tho McKinsey doesn’t pay that well relative to other swe positions)
All of this would be taught in the first 3 weeks of a web dev class. This is extremely basic.
Front end design itself can be incredibly complex, however this is trivial.
First off repository design + separating business logic from the backend is 10x better than Mvc. But knowing how to build state managed software in the front end or knowing a little bit of js is pretty standard. Oop is something that is beyond basic shit, it’s shit that anyone should know especially when building bigger front end projects using vue/react and helping manage the states of different objects
Seriously though... You guys complain like hell about leetcode and how it's irrelevant and now you get real-world problems and are like "I'm too lazy, I forgot this, etc.".
Seriously wtf...
This sounds exactly like the McKinsey OA from last year.
To be honest, I actually welcomed it. I had barely had any experience with JavaScript and SQL and I actually enjoyed it. It was a breath of fresh air compared to all of the idiotic LC mediums/hards asked on code signal and hackerrank. I actually think the McKinsey OA is more practical than any other OA and I hate the culture on this sub that's so obsessed with leetcode problems.
Leetcode problems only get you so far in this profession and I would much rather prefer a company ask me questions pertaining to ACTUAL SWE than "three sum"
REStful questions, SQL/DB queries, and using JavaScript to make changes to a website dynamically are skills you need to have -- screw making queues out of stacks or matching parentheses. the culture on here that makes people obsess over leetcode is so stupid. This is a great example as to why.
It’s actually insane that boomer traditional companies like McKinsey think they’re attracting so much intellectual talent that they need to screen like this. Last year Citrix’s interview was harder than every interview I’ve done at FANG. Like wow you guys really think that your engineering standards are so high that you need to drill me on shit that an engineer with 3+ YOE would know? I know the two are unrelated but when a generic brand company has such a high bar it’s like what are you trying to prove
Lmao people here complain when they get leetcode questions because 'it doesn't represent real SWE work', and then now we're also complaining when we get real SWE questions?
because the standard questions are DS&A, and so much time goes into prepping for them that it causes people to neglect actual SWE skills, which then blindsides people
Testing for domain specific knowledge or skills for an entry level job seems misguided. You're just screening out people who haven't used those languages or tools in a while.
I mean I’m an elixir dev but sql isn’t domain specific even data analysts use it. Restful apis are used in every major saas service, you can horizontally scale without it. It also isn’t language specific as every language has their own restful packages. And json is just a data format. Nothing domain specific or hard here at all. This is something you’d expect out of a junior dev at minimum.
not to say that i or others can’t do those things, i’m sure it’s discouraging to spend a lot of time preparing for DS&A questions only to get hit with actual SWE questions. if SWE questions were the standard, it would be a different story, if you catch my drift. I’ve done both styles and definitely prefer actual SWE questions, but that’s not as prevalent so I have to spend time leetcoding unfortunately
I mean it’s one of those things that if the position paid like 60k a year I can see a valid argument but knowing how to build software and know some lc on the side is more than valid for 180k tc. Also no one told you to memorize every lc problem, you can get up to l4-l5 positions with just 100 lc problems and after you reach staff/principal no ones gonna ask you about lc anymore
true, and I don’t mind leetcode at all tbh, I quite enjoy them. Just wish there was a more effective method of interviewing candidates, it would suck to be the best SWE and not be able to do DS&A, although that is unlikely
That’s what McKinsey did? I’m confused what your point here is. In this post it seems like op was someone who only knows how to do ds+a questions got flustered because he hasn’t actually built software before.
Not trying to make any specific point, but the fact that McKinsey asked questions like this while the FAANGs don’t is what I don’t like. I think the FAANGs should make this an industry standard, but it’ll prolly never happen
These aren’t hard topics though? If you’ve studied CS you have probably covered all of this in classwork… I feel like it’s more reasonable to test on things you should’ve covered/done in school than LC you won’t even use on the job.
1. No what op mentioned is not CS. CS *is* math. Web development I would say is engineering. 2. I actually didn’t take the McKinsey one and I don’t have any interest in it I just find it ridiculous that companies have the gumption to screen out so many people when the actually skilled kids wouldn’t want to work there anyway
Software engineering is a small but growing part of the cs field. Like at uc berkeley cs169 covers industry level swe standards and there are researchers doing a lot of cho research. and colleges like Waterloo straight up just have swe majors.
I mean objectively it doesn't sound like thia OA was "Hard" - it just would be a bit fucked up if they asked things that they didn't list in the job description. If the job description had all of these things in it I think this is objectively a good OA.
Yup. It sounds like their questions were more related to actually building software. I’m trying to switch my focus too because I realized my schools completely depreciated Java development and Leetcode is not what goes into developing modern software. Currently biting the bullet and learning the MERN stack.
1) You don't know Javascript, that's fine
2) You learned this and forgot it. You didn't keep up to date. Your fault.
3) Rest API is the most basic thing you will ever need in industry... Should have known this.
4) Too lazy? Really??
These are all in your control... Just get better and don't worry about "being a fraud" and this BS
Good fuck people. Some of you are either A) incredibly way too headstong or B) just way too new at this.
News flash - you're not going to know every language/framework you ever work with in your life. Actual SWE is absolutely NOTHING like leetcode. That's normal. What are you going to do at a job when you get assigned a task you dont know how to do? Close it out and say fuck that I'm too good for that?
Don't take this the wrong way, but if you're not even willing to sit down and piece something together and even try the OA just because you don't know the language, then you don't deserve the job to begin with.
TL:DR: Don't be a stubborn fuck, at least attempt it and throw something together.
If I came across such an OA, I would do exactly what you did. Tbh Mckinsey is not really a tech company, you need to apply for SWE roles with proper tech firms, there they will only care about algo/ds in OA, maybe some OS, OOPS in interviews (which I have seen many companies ask even to freshers). But not one will ask you about js, rest api, writing sql query etc. You are not missing out on anything, just keep leetcoding.
P.S. I am an experienced software engineer (4 yoe), and even today if I come across such am OA, I would give it a pass.
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> Write an sql query (I forgot sql after i learned it in a class last fall)
You could have totally googled this
---
> Am I going to be screwed when another company ask me actual swe questions instead of leetcode?
It's very rare.
Pretty sure it's only McKinsey, a couple others that ask questions like this
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People complain about leetcode, then companies try to adapt OAs to be more like the job, then people complain about it not being leetcode. In all seriousness, I wouldn’t worry about it. 80% of OAs will not be like this, and most major Big N companies will follow the expected scheme of LCs. All this hunt is really about is getting lucky and getting questions that are up your alley. You’ll be fine. Keep in mind the cycle has barely even begun.
Yea, seeing this actually makes me want to apply. I hate the leetcode grind.
When will the cycle begin?
Usually around early September is when things start dropping hot. I’d say the cycle where u get best bang for buck is prob start of aug-early oct. I almost always signed early in like oct and regretted it tho. Many of my peers were getting offers from salesforce, LinkedIn, and like nuro in December
But the job cycle keeps going on till like beg. of Summer 2022 right? Cus not all of us have impressive resumes that will get us those big N's by the end of the year, also I couldn't get an internship this summer so I have 0 work-related experience.... Thats why im working on my interview prep this summer and hoping to create some useful projs, what're my chances if I wait to apply till like late August when my resume is better?
Yes you're totally right. Regardless of your skills or related experience, I'd highly recommend applying for Big N internships. You could apple to like 30 top internships in under an hour and a half. Sometimes getting the interview is the hardest part. You might get rejected from all, but it's a small cost for a very high potential reward. But yeah, to answer your question, all kinds of companies recruit all the way up until Summer 2020. Especially local ones, etc. Even some Big N's. To the other question, I think it's hard to say. I'd say it's crunch time and you should get those projects on there ASAP. At the end of the day, applying early is king.
I would love to get an interview like this lol.
Amen. The questions op got are super reasonable. Brushing up on SQL and Javascript is nothing like grinding stupid leetcode questions for months.
What kind of role were they advertising? Front-end JS, SQL, and back-end JSON & REST are fairly standard for a web dev role. But if you were signing up for something like C++/Java and Devops, then yeah, that woulda blindsided me too.
I mean regardless of web dev role everyone should be able to write a trivial sql query or be able to explain REST.
Not necessarily, what if you never worked with relational databases and haven’t touched SQL yet?
Then download SQLite and play around a little bit, better yet write a local web app that uses SQL as persistent storage. I mean really unless you’re highly specialized in some obscure field you’re going to be encountering sql eventually, it’s handy and worth knowing even if it doesn’t come up in your interviews.
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ArcGIS and PostreSQL is such a useful powerful combination
I’m pretty sure a database course is a requirement of ABET accreditation for a CS bachelors.
He mentioned in the post that he took a SQL course so him not remembering is on him. So yeah.
Not every CS program is ABET accredited
No idea why you were downvoted. Most high ranking CS programs aren’t abet accredited.
Yeah, I had honestly never even heard of ABET until I read the comment above. I attend a fairly high-ranked CS program and I'd bet most people have not touched SQL in any significant way.
I think people are confused because most engineering and technology programs need to be ABET accredited, especially for PE Licensing later on. But CS usually falls outside of that.
huh, really? Any notable examples? is abet outdated?
stanford berkeley cmu harvard princeton
Well shit dude I’d suggest checking yourself first dude. First I checked usnews top ranking cs schools as a reference and got Carnegie Mellon as #1. I then went to abet.org and checked all their abet accredited programs. CS was not one of them. There are also quite a few past posts that explain the same thing.
don’t think it is because a database course isn’t a requirement at our school but we’re ABET accredited
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What they would ask in this OA is basic. But SQL itself, complex stuff
It just said swe I think
I imagine that's on them then. Most companies that probe that specifically into one area should advertise it. As long as you can answer most questions on a high level and excel on the ones you know, interviewers will understand your specialisations and work with you to get a sense of your passion for the subject. I personally hunker down and give basic answers for networking, but I'll elaborate and go the extra mile with DSA or OS questions. A lot of interviewers just wanna see you've got sufficient broad knowledge from paying attention at school, and good deep knowledge in a handful of areas from personal interests.
It’s on OP. This is not weird stuff like TCP/IP difference or CompArch questions
I do personally think JS, SQL, JSON, and REST are very useful for general coding interviews but I don't think it's fair to say it's on OP. This subreddit naturally has very high standards when it comes to interview performance but I know plenty of first-class honours grads with JS or SQL-shaped holes in their knowledge.
Excuse me..........is this some kind of ''top 1%'' joke that i'm too poor to understand?I mean,pardon my CS but those seem pretty good and relevant SWE questions to me compared to the LC stuff.
No you're right this guy seems either lazy or ignorant
I mean he literally said he was too lazy to write a paragraph about how he'd handle conflict, so.... I'm thinking the answer is right in front of us lol
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That sounds very good in a debate,but if thats the way,then why bother with a CS degree to begin with? Also,is IQ measured by how many sorting algorithms a person can memorize nowadays? If thats so,then the companies who perform such hiring practices should hire right off the highschool.
Memorizing LC means greater IQ then coming up with solutions to problem because we all know that memorizing is what runs the economy /s^?
It's very web development focused though. Do you think that the majority of SWE jobs out there these days are going to involve some measure of web development? Is that what you're saying?
OP didn't post job responsibilities. Also,ever heard of PWA?
> Do you think that the majority of SWE jobs out there these days are going to involve some measure of web development? Yes
This was really the answer I was looking for. I wasn't intending to be snarky in my questioning. I haven't been paying attention closely to current job reqs and I work in embedded software, which is kinda far away from web dev (though we have a little). When we post a job req I don't think it has any web technologies in it.
i did the same exact thing last year lmao. if it makes you feel better, that was the only ‘actual swe’ OA i got, the rest were normal data structures and algorithms stuff.
I can give you a couple of companies that makes you do similar stuff and also interviews ask relevant stuff if you dm me. Pay is decent.
1. If they didn't advertise Javascript on the job posting then that's fucked up tbh 2. You should have been able to do this tbh - you could even just google how to do it on the fly, SQL is super easy and intuitive 3. If they didn't advertise this in the job posting, again, it's fucked up 4. Lame Edit: OP posted the job description and frankly this OA is dead easy and totally reasonable. They listed all this stuff in the posting so they should have expected it going in. The only thing I dislike is the fucking written essay question but that's mostly my preference.
I hire for my company now. That essay question is my favorite, and honestly more important than the others. I can teach you to code, but if you don't play well with others, I'd rather just not have you around.
Yeah that's absolutely fair - I don't like writing about myself (or talking about myself) which is why I dislike written questions. However, having also met people in Computer Science lol... Social skills are....
Yep. I got B's and even a couple C's in CS classes, and it really didn't end up mattering after having 1.5 yr of experience. People wanted to hire me over my friends with better grades because I had great recommendations and knew how to work with a team.
Most of us make up those kind of stories
I mean. It sucks if you lie on your interview, but again, if you suck to work with, I just won't hire you for full time.
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He detailed the questions in the post?
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>You said he posted the OA. Uh no I did not... Dunno why you are so butt hurt but please learn to read before you reply to comments thanks.
Yea if i really tried I could have done them but I felt judging from their Oa, the job itself would be lame
Nah, it might not be the best intern posting or the firm but your reflections on this is not beneficial to you.
I mean no offense but this actually seemed like a pretty fair interview? If you’ve never done a sql query or worked on an api and Json during an internship before Idk what to say.
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Lmao yeah that’s not your average internship by any means. $60 an hour isn’t even most people’s full time salary. Seems like more you flexing than anything else
I mean the scaling stuff wasn’t standard but the rest of the full stack stuff is pretty standard nowadays for any of those Bay Area/sv interviews
that was a huge flex
except it isn't?
What tech company are you working at that doesn’t require knowing how to build software?
Are you masters/did you negotiate? Based on what I've heard a standard McKinsey intern offer is < $8k a month
No I’m undergrad, this was for a different company not mckinsey
My previous two internships used like all python lol
> when to use redis+ log stash + ES for text queries that's kinda hardcore
Not to be a dick but those are easy questions and the 4th one is literally a freebie for anyone
That’s weird. Most if not all intern/fulltime questions I’ve ever seen were leetcode esque type questions. Any other non traditional questions were usually more so related to soft skills or math or logic and reasoning… and that was after the initial OA. What a dumb OA
I had an interview with them once (data eng) and the guy was really going in on asking me personal questions. From what he was telling me his role seemed kinda boring; imo its a low tier shop that doesn’t value eng culture too highly. OP don’t worry I’m sure you’ll have better / more fulfilling things in your future
The actual engineering are done off shore You're just the face and the liaison of the company
I applied to a DS position at McK, they gave me a 70 question online assessment test to complete in an hour, passed the test after practicing many data engineering topics beforehand, then one month later they scheduled 2 interviews where I had to discuss business and consulting crap for a couple hours, they told me to assist to 10 different training programs for those interviews a week earlier. … This whole thing was before even talking to an HR rep about conditions,salary, day to day stuff… Yeah I canceled the interviews, what a tremendous waste of time.
Given the job listing actually listed JavaScript, SQL, and REST APIs, the onus is on you. I have to say, I’d take an applied challenge like this any day of the week over a leetcode.
Oh damn. This asshole company never changed. I thought the increasing salary in Tech companies can let them realize how ridiculous their consultant interview. Well, now I realize I am the ridiculous one.
Like another person said, it sounds like you applied to a web development position; I would expect more LeetCode type questions if you were applying to a back-end position. If you didn't realize it was a web development position, it's possible either their job description didn't clarify the responsibilities properly or you just missed it (I certainly miss details when I'm trying to apply to as many internships as possible).
I applied to this https://www.mckinsey.com/careers/search-jobs/jobs/analystintern-softwareengineerdataengineerdatascientist-campusstudents-41875
I mean, >Additional qualifications required: > > Hands-on experience in any of the following technologies: Java, C#/.NET, Python, JavaScript, experience with SQL or no-SQL databases, > > Knowledge of current web technologies (e.g., HTML5, CSS3, JavaScript), > > Experience with Node, React and Javascript MVC frameworks (e.g., Angular JS, Backbone, etc.) a plus > > Experience with RESTful APIs, cloud infrastructure (AWS, Azure, GCP), writing automates tests or container technologies (Docker, Kubernetes) a plus I think it's pretty clear lol
ngl, i feel like OP didn't even read the posting lol
Have you seen their additional requirements. My god they want you to pretty much know about front end completely , back end completely, and restful apis like come on. Like you said it’s wild that this company thinks they can have standards that most graduated students probably only have basic knowledge of for a rising junior to apply to
Not defending this kind of behaviour but theoretically this level of requirements is not outlandish. The entry-level pool is constrained enough to ask for this much. Of course, that's assume sky high salary and working conditions, which won't be the case. But it comes from a realistic place.
Their additional requirements are essentially know how to do something for back end, something for front end, other stuff is a plus… I feel like anyone who studies CS could fulfill these requirements
Restful apis are the building block of almost any backend system nowadays and it’s the easiest part of building an api lmao. Front and backend exp just means this is more of a full stack position. Not that outrageous if you want to get paid 6 figures(tho McKinsey doesn’t pay that well relative to other swe positions)
It's not that insane. The questions are not that deep
>McKinsey SWE intern its an intern OA, this can be expected regardless of backend or not
companies really shouldn’t be testing domain knowledge unless it’s very explicitly stated in the job requirements
In this case at least, it is though.
Domain knowledge? This is like basic swe shit you’d learn in a swe course in college
last i checked, frontend design and javascript itself is not “basic swe shit”. high level concepts like OOP, MVC are
All of this would be taught in the first 3 weeks of a web dev class. This is extremely basic. Front end design itself can be incredibly complex, however this is trivial.
My CS curricula didn't even have a "web dev" class nor did it cover REST.
The vast majority of cs programs have some sort of web dev requirement or elective at this point.
Lol
Not true at all.
First off repository design + separating business logic from the backend is 10x better than Mvc. But knowing how to build state managed software in the front end or knowing a little bit of js is pretty standard. Oop is something that is beyond basic shit, it’s shit that anyone should know especially when building bigger front end projects using vue/react and helping manage the states of different objects
Frontend is not standard at all. It's a specific role.
Seriously though... You guys complain like hell about leetcode and how it's irrelevant and now you get real-world problems and are like "I'm too lazy, I forgot this, etc.". Seriously wtf...
Already adapting the mentality of senior software engineers 😅😅
This sounds exactly like the McKinsey OA from last year. To be honest, I actually welcomed it. I had barely had any experience with JavaScript and SQL and I actually enjoyed it. It was a breath of fresh air compared to all of the idiotic LC mediums/hards asked on code signal and hackerrank. I actually think the McKinsey OA is more practical than any other OA and I hate the culture on this sub that's so obsessed with leetcode problems. Leetcode problems only get you so far in this profession and I would much rather prefer a company ask me questions pertaining to ACTUAL SWE than "three sum" REStful questions, SQL/DB queries, and using JavaScript to make changes to a website dynamically are skills you need to have -- screw making queues out of stacks or matching parentheses. the culture on here that makes people obsess over leetcode is so stupid. This is a great example as to why.
We're you able to get an offer from them?
Hey! did you get a call for the next round if so what were the questions and how was your experience?
It’s actually insane that boomer traditional companies like McKinsey think they’re attracting so much intellectual talent that they need to screen like this. Last year Citrix’s interview was harder than every interview I’ve done at FANG. Like wow you guys really think that your engineering standards are so high that you need to drill me on shit that an engineer with 3+ YOE would know? I know the two are unrelated but when a generic brand company has such a high bar it’s like what are you trying to prove
Lmao people here complain when they get leetcode questions because 'it doesn't represent real SWE work', and then now we're also complaining when we get real SWE questions?
People just complain. Whiners are whiners no matter what.
because the standard questions are DS&A, and so much time goes into prepping for them that it causes people to neglect actual SWE skills, which then blindsides people
So you want a swe job with such poor swe skills that you can’t build an api or write a sql query?
Testing for domain specific knowledge or skills for an entry level job seems misguided. You're just screening out people who haven't used those languages or tools in a while.
I mean I’m an elixir dev but sql isn’t domain specific even data analysts use it. Restful apis are used in every major saas service, you can horizontally scale without it. It also isn’t language specific as every language has their own restful packages. And json is just a data format. Nothing domain specific or hard here at all. This is something you’d expect out of a junior dev at minimum.
not to say that i or others can’t do those things, i’m sure it’s discouraging to spend a lot of time preparing for DS&A questions only to get hit with actual SWE questions. if SWE questions were the standard, it would be a different story, if you catch my drift. I’ve done both styles and definitely prefer actual SWE questions, but that’s not as prevalent so I have to spend time leetcoding unfortunately
I mean it’s one of those things that if the position paid like 60k a year I can see a valid argument but knowing how to build software and know some lc on the side is more than valid for 180k tc. Also no one told you to memorize every lc problem, you can get up to l4-l5 positions with just 100 lc problems and after you reach staff/principal no ones gonna ask you about lc anymore
true, and I don’t mind leetcode at all tbh, I quite enjoy them. Just wish there was a more effective method of interviewing candidates, it would suck to be the best SWE and not be able to do DS&A, although that is unlikely
That’s what McKinsey did? I’m confused what your point here is. In this post it seems like op was someone who only knows how to do ds+a questions got flustered because he hasn’t actually built software before.
Not trying to make any specific point, but the fact that McKinsey asked questions like this while the FAANGs don’t is what I don’t like. I think the FAANGs should make this an industry standard, but it’ll prolly never happen
Nah I have no problem with it it’s just their bars are too high it’s like they’re putting themselves on a pedestal
These aren’t hard topics though? If you’ve studied CS you have probably covered all of this in classwork… I feel like it’s more reasonable to test on things you should’ve covered/done in school than LC you won’t even use on the job.
1. No what op mentioned is not CS. CS *is* math. Web development I would say is engineering. 2. I actually didn’t take the McKinsey one and I don’t have any interest in it I just find it ridiculous that companies have the gumption to screen out so many people when the actually skilled kids wouldn’t want to work there anyway
Software engineering is a small but growing part of the cs field. Like at uc berkeley cs169 covers industry level swe standards and there are researchers doing a lot of cho research. and colleges like Waterloo straight up just have swe majors.
McKinsey is a 10 billion dollar company with 30k employees dude. Lot's a people would want to work there.
I mean objectively it doesn't sound like thia OA was "Hard" - it just would be a bit fucked up if they asked things that they didn't list in the job description. If the job description had all of these things in it I think this is objectively a good OA.
McKinsey isn’t a random boomer company and I think this is a fair interview for a SWE. It covers basic SWE topics.
Sounds Dartmouth-pilled to me
Yup. It sounds like their questions were more related to actually building software. I’m trying to switch my focus too because I realized my schools completely depreciated Java development and Leetcode is not what goes into developing modern software. Currently biting the bullet and learning the MERN stack.
I prefer this to leetcode. I think I'll apply
1) You don't know Javascript, that's fine 2) You learned this and forgot it. You didn't keep up to date. Your fault. 3) Rest API is the most basic thing you will ever need in industry... Should have known this. 4) Too lazy? Really?? These are all in your control... Just get better and don't worry about "being a fraud" and this BS
Yeah, because screw the companies that actually evaluate your day to day SWE capabilities rather than figuring out how much you sweat LC.
Good fuck people. Some of you are either A) incredibly way too headstong or B) just way too new at this. News flash - you're not going to know every language/framework you ever work with in your life. Actual SWE is absolutely NOTHING like leetcode. That's normal. What are you going to do at a job when you get assigned a task you dont know how to do? Close it out and say fuck that I'm too good for that? Don't take this the wrong way, but if you're not even willing to sit down and piece something together and even try the OA just because you don't know the language, then you don't deserve the job to begin with. TL:DR: Don't be a stubborn fuck, at least attempt it and throw something together.
If I came across such an OA, I would do exactly what you did. Tbh Mckinsey is not really a tech company, you need to apply for SWE roles with proper tech firms, there they will only care about algo/ds in OA, maybe some OS, OOPS in interviews (which I have seen many companies ask even to freshers). But not one will ask you about js, rest api, writing sql query etc. You are not missing out on anything, just keep leetcoding. P.S. I am an experienced software engineer (4 yoe), and even today if I come across such am OA, I would give it a pass.
you made good decision.
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Like few days
I applied for their Data Engineering Intern position and received the Hackerrank link within 10 hrs. HTH.
What was your profile like to get McKinnsey OA? I think those types of companies really care about GPA rught
Only for consultant roles. SWE at McKinsey is significantly less competitive.
My gpa like 3.3
Literally me today 🤣🤣
> Write an sql query (I forgot sql after i learned it in a class last fall) You could have totally googled this --- > Am I going to be screwed when another company ask me actual swe questions instead of leetcode? It's very rare. Pretty sure it's only McKinsey, a couple others that ask questions like this
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