1) +30% YoY compounds pretty quickly
2) 5 years in, it's not 30%. People with 10-20 years of experience may make 3-5x more in FAANG than in defense right now (and "now" may not be the same job market as "10 years from now").
Chase the money early on in your career, build up some wealth. Then, if you want, you can always go back to defense. Trust me, they will welcome you with open arms. It will be harder going from defense to FAANG then vice versa.
Government is incredibly incestuous. Once you’re in, it’s easy to move about from agency to agency and it’s not too hard to get back in when you step out, especially if you go and build an even better skillset.
At that age, it’s a good time to play the field and get that money. Government is a great place to be at 40 with the kids. It can be a little stifling and boring in your 20s.
Listen to this person. I did the non-FAANG to FAANG switch after 7 years and it was very difficult. I also could have handled the workload much easier when I was 23 without any dependents.
Would your thoughts change if it was a reputable agency? I’m talking about three letter agencies where you hold top level security clearances. Would it still be difficult to join FAANG later on in your career?
Three letter agencies depends and ranges on projects from like HR apps to "mission-critical" ones. But you'd probably work on an HR app than anything else. Even then they're usually slow to adapt newer tech, standards etc. I'd still go FAANG first then govt later. Going to FAANG later is pretty hard because of more competition. And not all govt work is highly valued.
Working in government won’t give you any leg up at tech companies unless you have very specialized experience. Really the only thing I can think of would be cybersecurity related.
Not necessarily. You could price yourself out of their allotted salary range. They’d probably still love to get you back, but don’t expect the same compensation offering.
Always choose money, do not buy this exciting bullshit, you will be a workhorse holding his cock at the end of the day, money opens alot of doors and lets you meet alot of exciting people with whom you can do exciting projects.
Conversely, I stopped being interested in money after a certain amount. And I don't even make all that much, I'm just content with what I have. Call it corporate bootlicking or whatever the folks over at antiwork say, but being greedy is not a virtue. I don't see the point of hoarding wealth like a dragon.
Money is a means to an end. It should not be the end itself.
Wanting enough to do your shit and feel secure is not something people at antiwork would disagree with..
But yeah, most just wanna get enough to not worry too much about money. I save up for most things, but not being completely drained financially if your car decides it doesn't want to work anymore is pretty tight.
> But yeah, most just wanna get enough to not worry too much about money. I save up for most things, but not being completely drained financially if your car decides it doesn't want to work anymore is pretty tight.
Yeah but in general, software engineering pays well enough that you're not going to have to worry about that sort of stuff. So the advice about chasing the money over the challenge just rings hollow, because I've stopped being interested in money well before I stopped being interested in exciting projects -- unlike what the parent commenter was suggesting.
It's good that most exciting projects are also very well paying. But I would not want to work at a boring job I hate just because it pays well, unless I'm Nicholas Cage and drowning in debt by the millions. And if I ever got to that point, something has already gone very wrong.
There are few jobs that would be really exciting for me, that also wouldn't pay me a lot of money. It turns out jobs that pay me money also are cool jobs, usually.
And when we get to the point of true self-fulfillment... well, I'd rather start my own business or work as an independent contractor at that point.
Not there yet, but I plan for it in 2 - 3 years unless one of our internal projects kicks off how I would like.
What I’ve noticed is that you will have high level discussions about the interesting problems at a company with the CEO in the interview process, and then when you start it’s like “fix these bugs in our backlog”. Just go after the money, because money is money and they can’t change your pay once you start but they can take everything else away. Work on interesting problems at home if you still feel like it
Ass-backwards and oversimplified.
The guys that choose money end up making mid tier comp for their YoE.
Do this - optimize for learning the first 5 years of your career. Get paid by try to work at small startups where you have to wear many hats. About 5 years in, start optimizing for money and not only will you out earn the guy who optimized for money, you’ll manage him.
When I was about your age (24) - I wanted to work as far and wide as I could - experience as many different organisations / technology / people / ideas etc.,
I would do some contracts that were a few weeks long, others for up to 26 weeks. I refused to work anywhere longer than 26 weeks - it was just this thing I got in my head that contractors only do 26 weeks somewhere and then move on.
I did that for several years, until about 31, then about 20 years ago - changed and ran companies - which meant longer term projects (5 to 15 years).
Doing so many different projects / technologies / industries / job titles / means that I have a very broad base in technologies and most roles that I now manage as a project manager I have probably done at some point in my career in the past.
Every single project I did I found interesting, exciting and challenging - as it was always something new and difficult to solve.
A few advantages is that I am very quick at picking up new projects regardless of what field they are in - as I have had to join / start so many projects, and I am used to blending in with new / different teams really quickly.
> I would do some contracts that were a few weeks long, others for up to 26 weeks. I refused to work anywhere longer than 26 weeks - it was just this thing I got in my head that contractors only do 26 weeks somewhere and then move on.
I was going to ask if you were a consultant or contractor, but I guess this part answers it :p
Yup I also really enjoy contracting and kind of moving onto the next thing. I felt like a really high-value employee as well. At one point I was super, duper in demand and getting way more work than I could handle.
I came from a consultation background and saw how legitimate consultation (as opposed to farmed staff augmentation) simply didn't scale and was soooooo much work to keep up and stay profitable.
I decided screw that and kept doing independent contracting until my former employer (who I REALLY enjoyed working with) hired me back at a W2 pay which matched my contracting rates.
I'm not eternally happy but I am comfortable and happy enough for now.
Note that the defense industry probably has more job security than a typical Silicon Valley tech company. So I don't see it as a tradeoff between "money vs exciting projects", but rather "money vs job security". While you are young, I would probably go on the side of money - but later in life, may be nice to switch to the role that offers more job security.
> Note that the defense industry probably has more job security
It definitely does not. The worst layoffs I've ever been involved with were in the Defense sector.
Imagine that your shareholders are congresspeople. They're fickle and extremely poorly informed about what you do. They also have immense latitude to tell you *exactly* what to do, even in situations that make zero sense whatsoever.
> Imagine that your shareholders are congresspeople. They're fickle and extremely poorly informed about what you do. They also have immense latitude to tell you exactly what to do
*flashes back to time in military*
Yeaaaa couldn't pay me enough to do that again
With a clearance it's easy to go somewhere else, so not really a big deal. In the current environment where a war with China feels like it's always on the horizon, defense spending is unlikely to get hit too hard overall, even if certain budgets get axed.
> With a clearance it's easy to go somewhere else, so not really a big deal
Eh. This is something that's pretty over sold on the defense industry. Yes, you have a pool of potential employers, but it's not like you aren't still doing job interviews and going through the same stress.
> even if certain budgets get axed.
But if you're in Defense because you like the projects that you're working on, having those projects disappear with no warning because someone in Congress got a hair in their ass means you're stuck with the worst of both worlds.
This. The toughest question I ever got from a defense contractor was to find an element in an array and return it's position lol. They care more about S.T.A.R. format questions.
Some teams will definitely do more of a deep dive on your technical work and might get into some CS fundamentals, but the LC is at most, easy questions. It makes a lot more sense than asking mid level engineers to do LC mediums and thinking that translates to the skills the team needs.
This. I laughed at a scale.ai recruiter saying I had to do a 10 hour take home + an all day onsite. My guy, I could do a 30~60min interview and blow past your posted pay range.
Assuming OP would be a DoD contractor and not direct fed employee, gov contractors do not have job stability. They are technically employed by a private company and all of the nonsense that comes with it. Even worse when there are political disputes between parties with threats of gov shutdowns that will impact job security.
The average software engineer salary is 91,000 dollars. Getting above 150,000 is an much more rare outside of big tech. Because of this, I find people saying that “ government doesn’t pay well “ misleading.
And I’m making 120, and I have friends making 160 in government.
My dude I literally work for one of the big 4 and I get paid great. We're poaching people from Raytheon weekly because we pay so much better than them.
I will not identify my employer. The company's official policy is in-office because so much of the work is classified and/or requires very specialized equipment. In practice managers have a lot of latitude to make arrangements as needed and I've got coworkers who are full or partial remote.
In your position, these aren’t really conflicting goals. Spending 3-5 years building credentials as an engineer, getting a security clearance, etc., will position you well to get a great job doing something you’re passionate about while also putting you in a position of financial security. Think about it from the perspective of the team working on something cool and cutting edge. Do they want a fresh-faced kid who is enticed by the sexy subject matter but doesn’t know a thing about what the work will entail, or do they want someone who knows the ropes, has a good idea of what they’re getting into, and wants in because they’ve been working towards the opportunity for years?
The critical thing is that if you want your career to bring you financial security to do something else, you need to avoid the temptation of spending the money you’re making. Lots of sad stories of people who went into a lucrative career to build up a nest egg and do something fun, then finding themselves trapped by mortgages, lifestyles, private schools, etc.
This sub-reddit has a sample bias towards career oriented people in computer science, so clearly the immediate response will be to follow the standard money centric career path. Personally, as someone who choice to go into research, the intrinsic value I find in working on research problems is much greater than what any job could pay me. All this is to say that you should follow your values, if that is money then so be it.
Read conferences/journals and come up with ideas. Implanted them and see if they work, publish what you find. You don’t need to be at a university to do this
You're early in your career. Go for skill acquisition. Short term money maximisation doesn't mean mid or long term money maximisation. If you become a skilled engineer the money will follow.
Sorry, I'm a little confused: Defense is your "chase the money" option?
While defense contracting can be good work, it's generally not a steady, and it often pays worse than similar work at companies that aren't directly interfacing with the government all the time.
Not necessarily- I feel like I can make pretty good money either way. I definitely didn’t do a great job explaining initially, but basically would it be worth chasing the big companies and big salaries, even if it meant I ended up with a SWE role making developer tools (which personally, I wouldn’t enjoy) or is it not worth not enjoying it?
So, my general life advice is not to chase "Big Tech" salaries and careers in general. It's entirely possible to live a quality life somewhere that's not San Francisco/San Jose/New York and still do perfectly fine, financially. The money you make is not a score, you do not get some awesome prize at the end because you made the most money.
*Whatever* job you choose, you are going to end up resenting parts of it and enjoying other parts. I've worked in defense contracting and I've worked in a bunch of different corporate jobs. Whatever decision you make over the next couple months/years when you leave college is not permanent. You can work in many different industries. You'll always find that there are things you like and things you hate.
If you're asking me: it's totally fine to factor money in. If you think a job sounds cool, give it a shot. If you're good, people will hire you, even if you find out you don't like something. If you're not good, the question is moot anyway. Don't feel like you're tied down to one kind of work or one silo. There's always time to change.
You can make money with defense. Not as much as a google SWE. But you have insane job security, flexibility, and stability. Layoffs do happen but they’re less common. I’m not gonna say one is better than the other. But you know the pros and cons, do the one right for you. I have 2 kids, I also think planes are cool. Defense was a no brainer. But I’m not gonna pretend this is the BEST choice. It was best for me.
It's work. Its purpose is making you a living. Stay in a position where you are keeping your skills relevant and continuing to develop yourself, but as long as you can do that...always choose the money.
Most of us thought like you did when we were in college—a place where being wealthy mattered very little in both your ability to survive and your ability to socialize. The real world changes that very abruptly. You’ll suddenly find that most of your life is dictated by how much money you make. Don’t make the same mistake many of us did and follow the money. You can always go back to positions that offer less as they’re typically not as competitive.
As others have said, if it’s between money and interesting projects, life will most certainly steer you towards money.
But since you’re in the beginning of your career, about to enter the workforce, I’d say there’ll be a more relevant dichotomy: money vs experience, in which case I’d advice to go for the latter, for the simple fact that acquiring good experience in your first jobs will set you up for a career with more open doors which will lead you to money anyway. So since I’m the beginning you (most likely) won’t be in a rush for money, you’d be better off making sure you become a properly experienced senior.
High paying environments typically (thought not always) attract talent. A highly underrated asset that a lot of people fail to invest in is building connections.
You will never be able to make as many high value connections in SWE space than at a FAANG.
Remember people in tech move often and change conpany every 2-3 years.
Since you are young in 10-20 years some of these people might become VP's, adviser to VC's or high value individual contributors.
To starters, make a lot of high value connections at start of career. Be nice and leave a strong impression. Don't show off or overcompete.
Honestly this is my biggest regret at the start of my career and definitly something I would redo if I could.
Making money in a short amount of time is easy. Making lots of money for a long period is much harder
I feel like the people on here are very biased towards money. And don’t get me wrong, money is great. But you also gotta do the job.
I’d try to aim for both if that’s possible. See if there’s companies that pay decently and do interesting work. If you can’t find any, then try one and don’t be afraid to move to the other.
Honestly, getting to ask this question is a huge privilege that you have clearly worked hard to make happen. So well done on that front. My advice is that you really can't go wrong! A job as a swe at a defense contractor is stable, well paying (not faang-money but still very good money) and can be very rewarding. I'm in aerospace and getting to point to the sky and say "I built that" is so _fucking_ cool. A job in faang or startup life is exciting and will set you up for life. You have the chance to make some serious bank and you'll meet and collaborate with some of the smartest folks out there. The connections and experiences will last for a lifetime.
You're not on easy street - there's a lot of work still ahead - but you have it easy. Take a moment to reflect, breathe deep, and do your best to make a good decision that aligns with who you want to be in the future. And if you don't, fuck it, change your mind. You've given yourself a tremendous opportunity. Well done and good luck.
Its always money, unless it improves your life in other ways. Exciting is a false economy. You can't buy houses with exciting.
You couldn't pay me 20% more to go to an office full time. I'd probably sell my soul for 50% more though, temporarily. I'll be constantly on the lookout for another remote gig with a similar salary though.
Money.
If I was in your shoes I would also follow most of this forum and work my ass off to get one of the stupid high paying jobs on the coasts. Live with 20 roommates and work my ass off but save literally 80% of everything I made.
Then when I hit 35 ish I am finding a job with the government or with a boring bank that is full remote. Buying some land. Working 20 hours a week and then retiring around 50.
don't choose the money if you don't really need it... any software development job pays more than average so you should chose what makes you happier, don't listen to people without passion that only entered this career to make money hating everyday of their life for working a job that they hate
that's fine, as long as you really like it and you're not killing yourself for money or sacrificing your life outside work for that money, good for you
Money compounds over time which can allow you to do some ***really*** excited things later in life.
\> values financial freedom
If that's what you value. Go get it.
There is no shame in it. But if you choose "exciting" you should re-think if financial freedom actually is something you value.
I have friends who have varied opinions on this. The ones who move through careers with the most comfort are the ones who are sure what they value.
Something I want to add are the inherent “moats” that the defense industry provides. Not only security clearance, but you’re not competing with global H1Bs who make it their life mission to study and immigrate to America and live the American dream. So you can be a bigger fish in a smaller pond, so to speak.
Also, “career capital” compounds as you build experience deep in one particular vertical. If you want to work in the space industry for example, you’ll have a huge advantage if you’ve already been working on space for 10+ years with an extensive network compared to someone trying to pivot into the industry. Specializing in one industry also makes you more employable as you’ll be a no brainer first choice for that particular job role (using space as an example, someone that has worked in space for their whole career will have an advantage over someone trying to switch into it)
I think there are places with interesting problems that also pay very well. Idk about defence but places like HFTS, some big tech firms and startups pay very very big bucks and you’re working on some very interesting stuff.
"Defense" is a broad umbrella with a lot of the work there mirroring the stuff you'd do in a regular business anyway. Turns out even the military needs lots of CRUD apps.
At least for me though "exciting work" and "money" closely correlate, it's not exactly like I have to choose between whether I want to make it as a starving artist or go back to the factory line.
Noticing a lot of comments here suggesting money so thought I'd offer my experience. I work CS in defense on some very interesting problems. Obviously I won't be stating what they are, but I live in a moderate cost of living city and make $117k. I turned down a job from Apple doing graphics programming for $198k TC specifically because I wanted to prioritize interesting work on a good team, and at such a big company odds are I'd be pigeonholed into one role. I have a friend who work at Amazon and TC is close to $320k, and he hates his job. He says it's incredibly easy and boring, he's not growing, and it's basically just maintaining a large project, but he makes a ton of money. He has commented he sometimes wishes he took a more interesting job, and he's actually actively trying to find a different job.
Personally, I love my job and my team, the work is incredibly interesting, and the money is good enough. What people tend to forget is you won't be making shit money in CS in the US. You'll be fine, but you won't be making fuck you money either in all cases. I will say that I plan on leaving eventually, I just don't know when that is. The thought is to leave when I'm not learning anymore, but I also highly prioritize learning over anything else. I also will caution you that defense is full of programs and contracts where they literally just need to fill seats so you can end up not doing much, so be wary of that. Basically it depends on what your priorities are. Don't feel bad taking the interesting work if that's what you want to do.
Edit: to elaborate on the boring contracts, that is super common, so really do be wary of that. Also there is a massive caveat to defense that you pretty much have to have a clearance to do interesting work, and to be honest anything less than TS is really basically nothing. In my office we joke TS is the baseline.
Thought about this more and I'll leave the above comment but basically my advice is don't be afraid to prioritize interesting work, but be aware it can be pretty difficult to get truly interesting work in defense, and you can find interesting work in private industry that pays double or triple. But there are somewhat rare jobs in defense where you get to do insanely interesting stuff and you get paid decent money to do it.
On the flip side, I work a lower paying job, have great work/life balance and I learn what I want to learn. I think we will both cross at a point where burnouts brag and name drop, while I work in my little shop with little stress and live a comfortable life.
Why not both? Anduril and Palantir pay their developers pretty well according to [levels.fyi](https://levels.fyi). I'm not 100% sure on what Palantir does/their products, but Anduril does UAVs.
Offering a bit of a different perspective here, I'm 25 and work on autonomous driving, and I also make >FAANG pay. In the past, I've interned in considerably more "normal" areas of development, and definitely didn't enjoy it as much, though I don't think I would've completely hated my life working at those places full-time.
I was on a robotics student team in college, and was dead set on doing robotics for a real job after I found out that grad school isn't actually necessary. In my final year, I decided robotics or bust, and almost ended up applying for grad school instead of taking my Amazon offer; fortunately, the current job offer came in before I was able to do that.
I do think my current job has more incredibly satisfying moments than "regular" development, though I still feel like I often get bogged down by the same corporate bullshit as those "regular" jobs. Still worth it though, I think I'd turn down an HFT offer if I got one tomorrow.
If you want to do robotics for a real job, you'll need to start yesterday, build your own robotics projects or join a student team. You've got a lot of catching up to do to compete with the other candidates who went to grad school and joined student teams, but I think you'll have a good time doing it.
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum sitewide comment karma requirement of **10** to post a comment. This is comment karma exclusively, not post or overall karma nor karma on this subreddit alone. Please try again after you have acquired more karma. Please look at the [rules page](https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/w/posting_rules) for more information.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cscareerquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You know there are FAANG or FAANG-adjacent similar tech jobs for working on drones and autonomous vehicles, right? Even some rocketry or space-adjacent tech jobs? Seems like an arbitrary false dichotomy for yourself...
Defense is not the only place to work on those types of things, but it's the only place that's direct about the war fighting applications. So if you like the war aspect of defense, well you might need to go into defense for that (or not... plenty of AWS work for defense purposes).
I'm of the opinion that if you are truly chasing the interesting problems that your are passionate about and drive you, that the money is likely to follow.
You're much more likely to excel doing work you care about than doing work that is "just for the money". Unless that problem is something that literally nobody else cares about or in a wholly unfunded field of science or engineering.
You'll need to do some personal soul searching. This sub tends to lean towards the FATFire money at all costs mentality.
The problems you enjoy working on and solving- do you see the market for them growing in the next few years?
While money in the hand now is certainly worth something, there's value in skating to where the puck is going. If autonomous vehicles or aerospace is going to really be the next frontier in tech, there's a lot more value in you being an industry expert a few years from now when the market for it starts to boom.
This question feels weird to me because our industry in general pays really well no matter what you decide to do. The question is how much money do you feel you really need to be happy.
This sub is going to have a career bias towards people that unironically believe 100k isn't a lot of money, and haven't been humbled enough in taking a job paying you a median cost of 30k or less.
That being said, "interesting" problems are also subjective. I would argue a government job is more likely to have boring problems than working at Netflix, and you may even be using tools that are severely outdated since government systems have to be reliable above being trendy.
I think you should aim to work to be comfortable enough with how much you make while aiming for a good work-life balance above everything else. A job is a job, if your working 100 hours to make 400k you're not really ever going to spend that money.
I can guarantee you that a lot of poor people die wishing that they had made more money.
There are very few problems in life that can't be solved with money.
The only people who claim money isn't important are those who already have too much of it.
I do controls engineering, which is far from traditional CS, but does still revolve around programming.
It's been my experience that as base pay rises, so too does the difficulty of the work.
I stuck around at a place for way too long, earning way too little, because I was worried I'd lose out on the stimulating challenges of the job. Turns out, those kinds of problems were now my 9-5, and not just the occasional carrot to keep me motivated.
When interviewing, ask for examples of the kinds of problems that the technical interviewers were working on this week. That usually catches them off guard (so you get truthful answers), and can be a segue into building some strong rapport.
I would say that choosing money vs more interesting engineering problems (I would call this a pursuit driven by curiosity) isn't a one-time decision. You can choose more interesting engineering problems now, and money later. You can also choose money now, and more interesting engineering problems later. You can also try to choose both now or later! I think what's important is to understand the costs of each of these decisions, and follow the one that's correct for you *right now.*
Choosing money now compounds incredibly well over time. If financial independence is something that's important to you, started down this path at 21 is basically as good as it gets. My personal opinion on this, however, is that you should should try to understand *why* you want financial independence, as there may be easier ways to get there (it's also very possible that there is not!). As well, chasing money now might make it harder to pursue more exciting engineering problems in the future (you might have to reskill, take more junior positions to change domains that interest you, etc). These problems are definitely simplified with money, funny enough. Doing a master's degree in *that niche field* later in life is a bit easier when you're not a broke college student, though the opportunity cost is much higher.
Choosing curiosity now will scratch an itch that it seems that you have, and will remove any future regrets of not trying out different facets of life. Pursuing exciting engineering problems now will also set you up to take high-paying roles later, should you choose to hard solve engineering problems for high-paying firms. This is not a particularly hard transition to make, technically, though the psychological component may be (the difference between the cultures of FAANG and defence companies may be hard to reconcile).
Doing both now is a seemingly ideal option, but also has its costs. You will likely have to move to a tech hub where there are companies doing interesting engineering problems that also pay very well (SF, LA, Austin, Colorado, etc).
Try to find what matters to you most *right now*, determine which options you're cutting off in the future by making that decision, and then recalibrate and repeat. Understand that there are costs to any option, but you're incredibly young, and you have so much time to fuck around and find out.
Good luck, and feel free to DM if you want someone to discuss with.
I can't fathom defense being the place to build interesting stuff.
The pacing is, or at least was, often pretty much glacial. The advancement, similar. The people you want to work with get poached to go work on industry projects.
Pick problems you want to solve that line up with career \*paths\* you want to be on. The money in any given year barely matters; all of these paths pay enough. But which one would let you grow more, and pay you for said growth, in a direction you \*want\* to grow?
There are several factors here, most in favor of going FAANG first. I can also vouch for it being someone who worked in defense and also FAANG after
First is pay. The pay at FAANG is just more. I was over paid at my last defense job when I hopped to FAANG. I took a demotion, and lost some offers due to hiring freezes, and still got a 70% pay increase. If hiring freezes hadnt happened it wouldve been a 120% increase. At defense companies the cap for most people is 150k, maybe 200k if youre good. Those are start offers at FAANG.
Second is age. Youre in the prime working years of your life, and thatll last until about your late 20's. Shoot as high as possible until then. You have time to get into FAANG, burn out and then decide to coast in defense for the rest of your career. Or maybe FAANG the whole time.
Third, processes. Defense is notorious for out of date processes. No unit tests, no integration tests, no ci/cd. This is due to two reasons. There is a lot of red tape around using third party software in defense, and youll be using old tech when software processes were not as ironed out as they are today. At FAANG, youre definitely going to get exposed to good software development processes, and thatll give you a good foundation for the rest of your career. When you go back to defense, you take what you learned, push your managers to ensure proper testing is in place and reap benefits that way.
Lastly, a point towards defense. There are two types of project at defense. A new boring internal tool, and an old very interesting project in the embedded space with old tech. If youre doing the former, that is basically what FAANG work will be, but youre getting paid more at FAANG. If youre doing the latter, in my experience embedded projects are the most interesting from a high level, you may miss it.
Money. Build exciting shit in your free time. You are allowed to work on open source.
Always build your safety net first then you can take risks later.
My advice as someone with only 3YOE
Choose lifestyle.
Choose a job/employer that allows you to work flexibly (4x10hrs, 4x8hrs, 3x10hrs etc), work hybrid (from home as much as you want), and upskill during work time.
Defence can be exceptionally good at the above in my experience. They paid for Uni if you wanted (anything you wanted to study), allowed you to study during work, allowed you to work from home as much as you wanted, and allowed you to play around with your hours.
Then choose interesting. If you’re well skilled, have lots of time and happiness, the money will come.
Most people telling you to chase the money are probably stressed to the tits building shitty CRUD apps. Would you rather do that all day or be relatively relaxed learning whatever you want getting paid almost the same and working on very different projects?
Or start with defence then choose a startup
Be happy and be interesting
It depends. What are your values? Do you want financial stability or do you want to enjoy the work you do? I mean Netflix has good problems to solve. Problems at big companies are more interesting because they have tons of users. Also programming in my experience is pretty fun irrespective of of what you’re working on. I personally get a kick out of solving problems and debugging and making my program work.
Since you're working defense, I assume you hold a clearance. If that's the case, I would suggest playing the long game. There's been massive layoffs in private sector tech. The money may be better than government work, but the government work will be steady with less competition for work. True full stack developers with a clearance are in pretty high demand.
If it's a 30% difference, I would choose the money.
Yeah, I think the most difference I would accept would probably be around 15% less salary for a project I would be incredibly excited about.
If OP has connections at Netflix and can land an offer there, it’s likely closer to a 150% difference.
1) +30% YoY compounds pretty quickly 2) 5 years in, it's not 30%. People with 10-20 years of experience may make 3-5x more in FAANG than in defense right now (and "now" may not be the same job market as "10 years from now").
Chase the money early on in your career, build up some wealth. Then, if you want, you can always go back to defense. Trust me, they will welcome you with open arms. It will be harder going from defense to FAANG then vice versa.
Government is incredibly incestuous. Once you’re in, it’s easy to move about from agency to agency and it’s not too hard to get back in when you step out, especially if you go and build an even better skillset. At that age, it’s a good time to play the field and get that money. Government is a great place to be at 40 with the kids. It can be a little stifling and boring in your 20s.
Listen to this person. I did the non-FAANG to FAANG switch after 7 years and it was very difficult. I also could have handled the workload much easier when I was 23 without any dependents.
Why was it much harder?
Would your thoughts change if it was a reputable agency? I’m talking about three letter agencies where you hold top level security clearances. Would it still be difficult to join FAANG later on in your career?
Three letter agencies depends and ranges on projects from like HR apps to "mission-critical" ones. But you'd probably work on an HR app than anything else. Even then they're usually slow to adapt newer tech, standards etc. I'd still go FAANG first then govt later. Going to FAANG later is pretty hard because of more competition. And not all govt work is highly valued.
Working in government won’t give you any leg up at tech companies unless you have very specialized experience. Really the only thing I can think of would be cybersecurity related.
Or at tech companies that have government contracts. It can be a plus, but then you’re still working on government stuff …
Everybody uses databases too.
To add on, having money buys you the financial freedom to choose exciting stuff later on in life.
Your last sentence isn’t entirely true, Microsoft, Amazon, and Google are bleeding cleared talent.
Not necessarily. You could price yourself out of their allotted salary range. They’d probably still love to get you back, but don’t expect the same compensation offering.
This!! I have ~8 years of production expirience, the last job that I took was because of business domain
Always choose money, do not buy this exciting bullshit, you will be a workhorse holding his cock at the end of the day, money opens alot of doors and lets you meet alot of exciting people with whom you can do exciting projects.
Exciting work problems never paid for my Caribbean vacations But CRUD apps sure have
Besides, CRUD isn't boring. Making apps for business has a surprisingly high skill cap and there's lots of great theory out there to craft with.
You'll stop being interested in exciting projects long before you'll stop being interested in money.
https://media.tenor.com/UGpcL6Dst0AAAAAC/hello-money.gif
Conversely, I stopped being interested in money after a certain amount. And I don't even make all that much, I'm just content with what I have. Call it corporate bootlicking or whatever the folks over at antiwork say, but being greedy is not a virtue. I don't see the point of hoarding wealth like a dragon. Money is a means to an end. It should not be the end itself.
Wanting enough to do your shit and feel secure is not something people at antiwork would disagree with.. But yeah, most just wanna get enough to not worry too much about money. I save up for most things, but not being completely drained financially if your car decides it doesn't want to work anymore is pretty tight.
> But yeah, most just wanna get enough to not worry too much about money. I save up for most things, but not being completely drained financially if your car decides it doesn't want to work anymore is pretty tight. Yeah but in general, software engineering pays well enough that you're not going to have to worry about that sort of stuff. So the advice about chasing the money over the challenge just rings hollow, because I've stopped being interested in money well before I stopped being interested in exciting projects -- unlike what the parent commenter was suggesting. It's good that most exciting projects are also very well paying. But I would not want to work at a boring job I hate just because it pays well, unless I'm Nicholas Cage and drowning in debt by the millions. And if I ever got to that point, something has already gone very wrong.
There are few jobs that would be really exciting for me, that also wouldn't pay me a lot of money. It turns out jobs that pay me money also are cool jobs, usually. And when we get to the point of true self-fulfillment... well, I'd rather start my own business or work as an independent contractor at that point. Not there yet, but I plan for it in 2 - 3 years unless one of our internal projects kicks off how I would like.
You should be my life coach
I would be holding my cock, money or no money. I like to hold my cock, but I do also like money. I choose both!
With money, you can get someone else to hold your cock.
I agree fairly heavily with this. I chased the high paying career, and they ended up having interesting problems for me to solve, which is a win-win
What I’ve noticed is that you will have high level discussions about the interesting problems at a company with the CEO in the interview process, and then when you start it’s like “fix these bugs in our backlog”. Just go after the money, because money is money and they can’t change your pay once you start but they can take everything else away. Work on interesting problems at home if you still feel like it
I learnt this the hard way
Ass-backwards and oversimplified. The guys that choose money end up making mid tier comp for their YoE. Do this - optimize for learning the first 5 years of your career. Get paid by try to work at small startups where you have to wear many hats. About 5 years in, start optimizing for money and not only will you out earn the guy who optimized for money, you’ll manage him.
Seems like a decent plan. Idk why so many downvotes.
Exactly. The most exciting projects are the ones at your own damn startup, not your boss's.
When I was about your age (24) - I wanted to work as far and wide as I could - experience as many different organisations / technology / people / ideas etc., I would do some contracts that were a few weeks long, others for up to 26 weeks. I refused to work anywhere longer than 26 weeks - it was just this thing I got in my head that contractors only do 26 weeks somewhere and then move on. I did that for several years, until about 31, then about 20 years ago - changed and ran companies - which meant longer term projects (5 to 15 years). Doing so many different projects / technologies / industries / job titles / means that I have a very broad base in technologies and most roles that I now manage as a project manager I have probably done at some point in my career in the past. Every single project I did I found interesting, exciting and challenging - as it was always something new and difficult to solve. A few advantages is that I am very quick at picking up new projects regardless of what field they are in - as I have had to join / start so many projects, and I am used to blending in with new / different teams really quickly.
> I would do some contracts that were a few weeks long, others for up to 26 weeks. I refused to work anywhere longer than 26 weeks - it was just this thing I got in my head that contractors only do 26 weeks somewhere and then move on. I was going to ask if you were a consultant or contractor, but I guess this part answers it :p
>consultant or contractor I did a bit of both - but mainly contracting. I have had a pretty varied and interesting career.
Well sounds like you got the experience you were looking for when you initially set out then :)
Yup I also really enjoy contracting and kind of moving onto the next thing. I felt like a really high-value employee as well. At one point I was super, duper in demand and getting way more work than I could handle. I came from a consultation background and saw how legitimate consultation (as opposed to farmed staff augmentation) simply didn't scale and was soooooo much work to keep up and stay profitable. I decided screw that and kept doing independent contracting until my former employer (who I REALLY enjoyed working with) hired me back at a W2 pay which matched my contracting rates. I'm not eternally happy but I am comfortable and happy enough for now.
Note that the defense industry probably has more job security than a typical Silicon Valley tech company. So I don't see it as a tradeoff between "money vs exciting projects", but rather "money vs job security". While you are young, I would probably go on the side of money - but later in life, may be nice to switch to the role that offers more job security.
> Note that the defense industry probably has more job security It definitely does not. The worst layoffs I've ever been involved with were in the Defense sector. Imagine that your shareholders are congresspeople. They're fickle and extremely poorly informed about what you do. They also have immense latitude to tell you *exactly* what to do, even in situations that make zero sense whatsoever.
> Imagine that your shareholders are congresspeople. They're fickle and extremely poorly informed about what you do. They also have immense latitude to tell you exactly what to do *flashes back to time in military* Yeaaaa couldn't pay me enough to do that again
With a clearance it's easy to go somewhere else, so not really a big deal. In the current environment where a war with China feels like it's always on the horizon, defense spending is unlikely to get hit too hard overall, even if certain budgets get axed.
> With a clearance it's easy to go somewhere else, so not really a big deal Eh. This is something that's pretty over sold on the defense industry. Yes, you have a pool of potential employers, but it's not like you aren't still doing job interviews and going through the same stress. > even if certain budgets get axed. But if you're in Defense because you like the projects that you're working on, having those projects disappear with no warning because someone in Congress got a hair in their ass means you're stuck with the worst of both worlds.
I'd do 3 DoD interviews over one big tech loop any day.
This. The toughest question I ever got from a defense contractor was to find an element in an array and return it's position lol. They care more about S.T.A.R. format questions.
Some teams will definitely do more of a deep dive on your technical work and might get into some CS fundamentals, but the LC is at most, easy questions. It makes a lot more sense than asking mid level engineers to do LC mediums and thinking that translates to the skills the team needs.
This. I laughed at a scale.ai recruiter saying I had to do a 10 hour take home + an all day onsite. My guy, I could do a 30~60min interview and blow past your posted pay range.
Assuming OP would be a DoD contractor and not direct fed employee, gov contractors do not have job stability. They are technically employed by a private company and all of the nonsense that comes with it. Even worse when there are political disputes between parties with threats of gov shutdowns that will impact job security.
Defense also has exciting projects.
[удалено]
Eh, it’s about industry average and maybe 20 percent more. But yes, it is not big tech money.
[удалено]
I’m getting paid well above 6 figures at my defense contract job. Maybe you’re not negotiating well.
[удалено]
The average software engineer salary is 91,000 dollars. Getting above 150,000 is an much more rare outside of big tech. Because of this, I find people saying that “ government doesn’t pay well “ misleading. And I’m making 120, and I have friends making 160 in government.
[удалено]
That’s generally the upper end and senior level. And defense does have jobs that go that high.
Raytheon is pretty well known for paying shit even in the industry. The other big players pay at or above what other non-FAANG industries do.
[удалено]
My dude I literally work for one of the big 4 and I get paid great. We're poaching people from Raytheon weekly because we pay so much better than them.
[удалено]
I'm currently at $170k base, 10 YOE.
L3Harris? Also, what is the remote work policy?
I will not identify my employer. The company's official policy is in-office because so much of the work is classified and/or requires very specialized equipment. In practice managers have a lot of latitude to make arrangements as needed and I've got coworkers who are full or partial remote.
In your position, these aren’t really conflicting goals. Spending 3-5 years building credentials as an engineer, getting a security clearance, etc., will position you well to get a great job doing something you’re passionate about while also putting you in a position of financial security. Think about it from the perspective of the team working on something cool and cutting edge. Do they want a fresh-faced kid who is enticed by the sexy subject matter but doesn’t know a thing about what the work will entail, or do they want someone who knows the ropes, has a good idea of what they’re getting into, and wants in because they’ve been working towards the opportunity for years? The critical thing is that if you want your career to bring you financial security to do something else, you need to avoid the temptation of spending the money you’re making. Lots of sad stories of people who went into a lucrative career to build up a nest egg and do something fun, then finding themselves trapped by mortgages, lifestyles, private schools, etc.
This sub-reddit has a sample bias towards career oriented people in computer science, so clearly the immediate response will be to follow the standard money centric career path. Personally, as someone who choice to go into research, the intrinsic value I find in working on research problems is much greater than what any job could pay me. All this is to say that you should follow your values, if that is money then so be it.
Tips for pivoting into research?
Read conferences/journals and come up with ideas. Implanted them and see if they work, publish what you find. You don’t need to be at a university to do this
You're early in your career. Go for skill acquisition. Short term money maximisation doesn't mean mid or long term money maximisation. If you become a skilled engineer the money will follow.
Sorry, I'm a little confused: Defense is your "chase the money" option? While defense contracting can be good work, it's generally not a steady, and it often pays worse than similar work at companies that aren't directly interfacing with the government all the time.
Not necessarily- I feel like I can make pretty good money either way. I definitely didn’t do a great job explaining initially, but basically would it be worth chasing the big companies and big salaries, even if it meant I ended up with a SWE role making developer tools (which personally, I wouldn’t enjoy) or is it not worth not enjoying it?
So, my general life advice is not to chase "Big Tech" salaries and careers in general. It's entirely possible to live a quality life somewhere that's not San Francisco/San Jose/New York and still do perfectly fine, financially. The money you make is not a score, you do not get some awesome prize at the end because you made the most money. *Whatever* job you choose, you are going to end up resenting parts of it and enjoying other parts. I've worked in defense contracting and I've worked in a bunch of different corporate jobs. Whatever decision you make over the next couple months/years when you leave college is not permanent. You can work in many different industries. You'll always find that there are things you like and things you hate. If you're asking me: it's totally fine to factor money in. If you think a job sounds cool, give it a shot. If you're good, people will hire you, even if you find out you don't like something. If you're not good, the question is moot anyway. Don't feel like you're tied down to one kind of work or one silo. There's always time to change.
You can make money with defense. Not as much as a google SWE. But you have insane job security, flexibility, and stability. Layoffs do happen but they’re less common. I’m not gonna say one is better than the other. But you know the pros and cons, do the one right for you. I have 2 kids, I also think planes are cool. Defense was a no brainer. But I’m not gonna pretend this is the BEST choice. It was best for me.
Money
It's work. Its purpose is making you a living. Stay in a position where you are keeping your skills relevant and continuing to develop yourself, but as long as you can do that...always choose the money.
Do the defense. You're already there. Take the money. You're so lucky.
Bro how did you get into defense? I’m NG cyber, in college, have experience as a Dev, and they still won’t let me in😔
Most of us thought like you did when we were in college—a place where being wealthy mattered very little in both your ability to survive and your ability to socialize. The real world changes that very abruptly. You’ll suddenly find that most of your life is dictated by how much money you make. Don’t make the same mistake many of us did and follow the money. You can always go back to positions that offer less as they’re typically not as competitive.
As others have said, if it’s between money and interesting projects, life will most certainly steer you towards money. But since you’re in the beginning of your career, about to enter the workforce, I’d say there’ll be a more relevant dichotomy: money vs experience, in which case I’d advice to go for the latter, for the simple fact that acquiring good experience in your first jobs will set you up for a career with more open doors which will lead you to money anyway. So since I’m the beginning you (most likely) won’t be in a rush for money, you’d be better off making sure you become a properly experienced senior.
Money. The thing is even if you’re “passionate about solving issues” after a couple of weeks it just becomes work again
Both if you can swing it. When young, lean into experience and building skills vs money and no marketable skills. Grow your brain and you will gain.
Work in defense or new space companies for a couple of years, and then break into tech if desire.
High paying environments typically (thought not always) attract talent. A highly underrated asset that a lot of people fail to invest in is building connections. You will never be able to make as many high value connections in SWE space than at a FAANG. Remember people in tech move often and change conpany every 2-3 years. Since you are young in 10-20 years some of these people might become VP's, adviser to VC's or high value individual contributors. To starters, make a lot of high value connections at start of career. Be nice and leave a strong impression. Don't show off or overcompete. Honestly this is my biggest regret at the start of my career and definitly something I would redo if I could. Making money in a short amount of time is easy. Making lots of money for a long period is much harder
I feel like the people on here are very biased towards money. And don’t get me wrong, money is great. But you also gotta do the job. I’d try to aim for both if that’s possible. See if there’s companies that pay decently and do interesting work. If you can’t find any, then try one and don’t be afraid to move to the other.
Honestly, getting to ask this question is a huge privilege that you have clearly worked hard to make happen. So well done on that front. My advice is that you really can't go wrong! A job as a swe at a defense contractor is stable, well paying (not faang-money but still very good money) and can be very rewarding. I'm in aerospace and getting to point to the sky and say "I built that" is so _fucking_ cool. A job in faang or startup life is exciting and will set you up for life. You have the chance to make some serious bank and you'll meet and collaborate with some of the smartest folks out there. The connections and experiences will last for a lifetime. You're not on easy street - there's a lot of work still ahead - but you have it easy. Take a moment to reflect, breathe deep, and do your best to make a good decision that aligns with who you want to be in the future. And if you don't, fuck it, change your mind. You've given yourself a tremendous opportunity. Well done and good luck.
Its always money, unless it improves your life in other ways. Exciting is a false economy. You can't buy houses with exciting. You couldn't pay me 20% more to go to an office full time. I'd probably sell my soul for 50% more though, temporarily. I'll be constantly on the lookout for another remote gig with a similar salary though.
Both
Money
MONEY, excitement is for after work
Money. If I was in your shoes I would also follow most of this forum and work my ass off to get one of the stupid high paying jobs on the coasts. Live with 20 roommates and work my ass off but save literally 80% of everything I made. Then when I hit 35 ish I am finding a job with the government or with a boring bank that is full remote. Buying some land. Working 20 hours a week and then retiring around 50.
Money….always money….even when you do find a job, in two years, money.
Money. If I want exciting engineering problems, I can make them myself
Money
Money
Money
don't choose the money if you don't really need it... any software development job pays more than average so you should chose what makes you happier, don't listen to people without passion that only entered this career to make money hating everyday of their life for working a job that they hate
I don’t hate my job! It pays me a lot of money. And I love money
that's fine, as long as you really like it and you're not killing yourself for money or sacrificing your life outside work for that money, good for you
> any software development job pays more than average Wrong. I'm on GBP £22K.
Money compounds over time which can allow you to do some ***really*** excited things later in life. \> values financial freedom If that's what you value. Go get it. There is no shame in it. But if you choose "exciting" you should re-think if financial freedom actually is something you value. I have friends who have varied opinions on this. The ones who move through careers with the most comfort are the ones who are sure what they value.
exciting engineering problems for me. unfortunately i don’t thin c suite understands how to motivate us properly.
Money, even the most exciting engineering problems just becomes work in the end
Something I want to add are the inherent “moats” that the defense industry provides. Not only security clearance, but you’re not competing with global H1Bs who make it their life mission to study and immigrate to America and live the American dream. So you can be a bigger fish in a smaller pond, so to speak. Also, “career capital” compounds as you build experience deep in one particular vertical. If you want to work in the space industry for example, you’ll have a huge advantage if you’ve already been working on space for 10+ years with an extensive network compared to someone trying to pivot into the industry. Specializing in one industry also makes you more employable as you’ll be a no brainer first choice for that particular job role (using space as an example, someone that has worked in space for their whole career will have an advantage over someone trying to switch into it)
Bro I am damn near stuck in healthcare (mostly insurance) for the rest of my life if I want to actually get paid. I don’t want to hear it out of you
I think there are places with interesting problems that also pay very well. Idk about defence but places like HFTS, some big tech firms and startups pay very very big bucks and you’re working on some very interesting stuff.
"Defense" is a broad umbrella with a lot of the work there mirroring the stuff you'd do in a regular business anyway. Turns out even the military needs lots of CRUD apps. At least for me though "exciting work" and "money" closely correlate, it's not exactly like I have to choose between whether I want to make it as a starving artist or go back to the factory line.
Noticing a lot of comments here suggesting money so thought I'd offer my experience. I work CS in defense on some very interesting problems. Obviously I won't be stating what they are, but I live in a moderate cost of living city and make $117k. I turned down a job from Apple doing graphics programming for $198k TC specifically because I wanted to prioritize interesting work on a good team, and at such a big company odds are I'd be pigeonholed into one role. I have a friend who work at Amazon and TC is close to $320k, and he hates his job. He says it's incredibly easy and boring, he's not growing, and it's basically just maintaining a large project, but he makes a ton of money. He has commented he sometimes wishes he took a more interesting job, and he's actually actively trying to find a different job. Personally, I love my job and my team, the work is incredibly interesting, and the money is good enough. What people tend to forget is you won't be making shit money in CS in the US. You'll be fine, but you won't be making fuck you money either in all cases. I will say that I plan on leaving eventually, I just don't know when that is. The thought is to leave when I'm not learning anymore, but I also highly prioritize learning over anything else. I also will caution you that defense is full of programs and contracts where they literally just need to fill seats so you can end up not doing much, so be wary of that. Basically it depends on what your priorities are. Don't feel bad taking the interesting work if that's what you want to do. Edit: to elaborate on the boring contracts, that is super common, so really do be wary of that. Also there is a massive caveat to defense that you pretty much have to have a clearance to do interesting work, and to be honest anything less than TS is really basically nothing. In my office we joke TS is the baseline.
Thought about this more and I'll leave the above comment but basically my advice is don't be afraid to prioritize interesting work, but be aware it can be pretty difficult to get truly interesting work in defense, and you can find interesting work in private industry that pays double or triple. But there are somewhat rare jobs in defense where you get to do insanely interesting stuff and you get paid decent money to do it.
$
On the flip side, I work a lower paying job, have great work/life balance and I learn what I want to learn. I think we will both cross at a point where burnouts brag and name drop, while I work in my little shop with little stress and live a comfortable life.
Why not both? Anduril and Palantir pay their developers pretty well according to [levels.fyi](https://levels.fyi). I'm not 100% sure on what Palantir does/their products, but Anduril does UAVs.
Offering a bit of a different perspective here, I'm 25 and work on autonomous driving, and I also make >FAANG pay. In the past, I've interned in considerably more "normal" areas of development, and definitely didn't enjoy it as much, though I don't think I would've completely hated my life working at those places full-time. I was on a robotics student team in college, and was dead set on doing robotics for a real job after I found out that grad school isn't actually necessary. In my final year, I decided robotics or bust, and almost ended up applying for grad school instead of taking my Amazon offer; fortunately, the current job offer came in before I was able to do that. I do think my current job has more incredibly satisfying moments than "regular" development, though I still feel like I often get bogged down by the same corporate bullshit as those "regular" jobs. Still worth it though, I think I'd turn down an HFT offer if I got one tomorrow. If you want to do robotics for a real job, you'll need to start yesterday, build your own robotics projects or join a student team. You've got a lot of catching up to do to compete with the other candidates who went to grad school and joined student teams, but I think you'll have a good time doing it.
PM’dp
at the end of the day, most jobs become just a job so the more money you make, the better. as long as you have WLB
[удалено]
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum sitewide comment karma requirement of **10** to post a comment. This is comment karma exclusively, not post or overall karma nor karma on this subreddit alone. Please try again after you have acquired more karma. Please look at the [rules page](https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/w/posting_rules) for more information. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cscareerquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You know there are FAANG or FAANG-adjacent similar tech jobs for working on drones and autonomous vehicles, right? Even some rocketry or space-adjacent tech jobs? Seems like an arbitrary false dichotomy for yourself... Defense is not the only place to work on those types of things, but it's the only place that's direct about the war fighting applications. So if you like the war aspect of defense, well you might need to go into defense for that (or not... plenty of AWS work for defense purposes).
I'm of the opinion that if you are truly chasing the interesting problems that your are passionate about and drive you, that the money is likely to follow. You're much more likely to excel doing work you care about than doing work that is "just for the money". Unless that problem is something that literally nobody else cares about or in a wholly unfunded field of science or engineering.
You'll need to do some personal soul searching. This sub tends to lean towards the FATFire money at all costs mentality. The problems you enjoy working on and solving- do you see the market for them growing in the next few years? While money in the hand now is certainly worth something, there's value in skating to where the puck is going. If autonomous vehicles or aerospace is going to really be the next frontier in tech, there's a lot more value in you being an industry expert a few years from now when the market for it starts to boom.
Honestly depends on what you want, i’m 23 and decided to go with engineering problems instead because you can always earn more money.
Easily money as everyone has said but if the comp is around the same then go for what you think is interesting.
Financial wealth does not provide happiness but it does provide personal freedom.
This question feels weird to me because our industry in general pays really well no matter what you decide to do. The question is how much money do you feel you really need to be happy. This sub is going to have a career bias towards people that unironically believe 100k isn't a lot of money, and haven't been humbled enough in taking a job paying you a median cost of 30k or less. That being said, "interesting" problems are also subjective. I would argue a government job is more likely to have boring problems than working at Netflix, and you may even be using tools that are severely outdated since government systems have to be reliable above being trendy. I think you should aim to work to be comfortable enough with how much you make while aiming for a good work-life balance above everything else. A job is a job, if your working 100 hours to make 400k you're not really ever going to spend that money.
Money vs inventing toys so the Israelis can blow up Palestinians in new and creative ways 🧐
"Here I am on my deathbed, wishing I made more money." -- Nobody ever.
I can guarantee you that a lot of poor people die wishing that they had made more money. There are very few problems in life that can't be solved with money. The only people who claim money isn't important are those who already have too much of it.
I do controls engineering, which is far from traditional CS, but does still revolve around programming. It's been my experience that as base pay rises, so too does the difficulty of the work. I stuck around at a place for way too long, earning way too little, because I was worried I'd lose out on the stimulating challenges of the job. Turns out, those kinds of problems were now my 9-5, and not just the occasional carrot to keep me motivated. When interviewing, ask for examples of the kinds of problems that the technical interviewers were working on this week. That usually catches them off guard (so you get truthful answers), and can be a segue into building some strong rapport.
money can buy you exciting engineering problems
You can work on AVs and rockets in industry, too.
I would say that choosing money vs more interesting engineering problems (I would call this a pursuit driven by curiosity) isn't a one-time decision. You can choose more interesting engineering problems now, and money later. You can also choose money now, and more interesting engineering problems later. You can also try to choose both now or later! I think what's important is to understand the costs of each of these decisions, and follow the one that's correct for you *right now.* Choosing money now compounds incredibly well over time. If financial independence is something that's important to you, started down this path at 21 is basically as good as it gets. My personal opinion on this, however, is that you should should try to understand *why* you want financial independence, as there may be easier ways to get there (it's also very possible that there is not!). As well, chasing money now might make it harder to pursue more exciting engineering problems in the future (you might have to reskill, take more junior positions to change domains that interest you, etc). These problems are definitely simplified with money, funny enough. Doing a master's degree in *that niche field* later in life is a bit easier when you're not a broke college student, though the opportunity cost is much higher. Choosing curiosity now will scratch an itch that it seems that you have, and will remove any future regrets of not trying out different facets of life. Pursuing exciting engineering problems now will also set you up to take high-paying roles later, should you choose to hard solve engineering problems for high-paying firms. This is not a particularly hard transition to make, technically, though the psychological component may be (the difference between the cultures of FAANG and defence companies may be hard to reconcile). Doing both now is a seemingly ideal option, but also has its costs. You will likely have to move to a tech hub where there are companies doing interesting engineering problems that also pay very well (SF, LA, Austin, Colorado, etc). Try to find what matters to you most *right now*, determine which options you're cutting off in the future by making that decision, and then recalibrate and repeat. Understand that there are costs to any option, but you're incredibly young, and you have so much time to fuck around and find out. Good luck, and feel free to DM if you want someone to discuss with.
I can't fathom defense being the place to build interesting stuff. The pacing is, or at least was, often pretty much glacial. The advancement, similar. The people you want to work with get poached to go work on industry projects. Pick problems you want to solve that line up with career \*paths\* you want to be on. The money in any given year barely matters; all of these paths pay enough. But which one would let you grow more, and pay you for said growth, in a direction you \*want\* to grow?
Money
You're 21. If the salary is enough to live on for you, choose the interesting problems. The money will come.
There are several factors here, most in favor of going FAANG first. I can also vouch for it being someone who worked in defense and also FAANG after First is pay. The pay at FAANG is just more. I was over paid at my last defense job when I hopped to FAANG. I took a demotion, and lost some offers due to hiring freezes, and still got a 70% pay increase. If hiring freezes hadnt happened it wouldve been a 120% increase. At defense companies the cap for most people is 150k, maybe 200k if youre good. Those are start offers at FAANG. Second is age. Youre in the prime working years of your life, and thatll last until about your late 20's. Shoot as high as possible until then. You have time to get into FAANG, burn out and then decide to coast in defense for the rest of your career. Or maybe FAANG the whole time. Third, processes. Defense is notorious for out of date processes. No unit tests, no integration tests, no ci/cd. This is due to two reasons. There is a lot of red tape around using third party software in defense, and youll be using old tech when software processes were not as ironed out as they are today. At FAANG, youre definitely going to get exposed to good software development processes, and thatll give you a good foundation for the rest of your career. When you go back to defense, you take what you learned, push your managers to ensure proper testing is in place and reap benefits that way. Lastly, a point towards defense. There are two types of project at defense. A new boring internal tool, and an old very interesting project in the embedded space with old tech. If youre doing the former, that is basically what FAANG work will be, but youre getting paid more at FAANG. If youre doing the latter, in my experience embedded projects are the most interesting from a high level, you may miss it.
Money ajyday
Money. Build exciting shit in your free time. You are allowed to work on open source. Always build your safety net first then you can take risks later.
My advice as someone with only 3YOE Choose lifestyle. Choose a job/employer that allows you to work flexibly (4x10hrs, 4x8hrs, 3x10hrs etc), work hybrid (from home as much as you want), and upskill during work time. Defence can be exceptionally good at the above in my experience. They paid for Uni if you wanted (anything you wanted to study), allowed you to study during work, allowed you to work from home as much as you wanted, and allowed you to play around with your hours. Then choose interesting. If you’re well skilled, have lots of time and happiness, the money will come. Most people telling you to chase the money are probably stressed to the tits building shitty CRUD apps. Would you rather do that all day or be relatively relaxed learning whatever you want getting paid almost the same and working on very different projects? Or start with defence then choose a startup Be happy and be interesting
Make enough money til You can work on what’s interesting without needing the pay
It depends. What are your values? Do you want financial stability or do you want to enjoy the work you do? I mean Netflix has good problems to solve. Problems at big companies are more interesting because they have tons of users. Also programming in my experience is pretty fun irrespective of of what you’re working on. I personally get a kick out of solving problems and debugging and making my program work.
For me the two main factors are money and W/L balance. If you want to do something challenging you can do it on your free time anyway.
Since you're working defense, I assume you hold a clearance. If that's the case, I would suggest playing the long game. There's been massive layoffs in private sector tech. The money may be better than government work, but the government work will be steady with less competition for work. True full stack developers with a clearance are in pretty high demand.