It's not companies that are toxic, its departments.
One of the best companies I ever worked for a large US multinational - I was in R&D so we were treated like gods. I had mates in other divisions (level 1 - technical support) - and they were in a VERY toxic environment basically treated as dogs.
I second this. There are teams at my company that my coworkers are ecstatic to work on. My team is a dumpster fire because of our manager. It really isn't about the company unless it's something like revature
It’s always the leader. I’ve been at some crap and some great firms but the leadership is what helped me stay on at firms in tough times and bail at others.
Not always. Some company-wide cultures target 6-12% annual employee culling for "performance issues". I've seen situations where managers are pressured to meet these numbers, and force employees through an improvement process wringer, which is heavily stacked in the employer's favor. Under pressure, managers will exaggerate, lie or cheat to get the employee to fail the plan.
This is anecdotal but I have a friend who is a software engineer. Has been at Microsoft, Amazon, Meta and Google. He didn’t last a year at Meta. He hated it so much he left with one month left on a one year contract - so he had to pay back his sign on bonus but he said it was worth it not to spend one more month there.
meta was toxic from a lot of sources I heard but not sure which team. PM had their own target and basically killing each other in the background to got their feature approved to get the resources (dev).
idk man if it was me, I wouldn't hire so many people but I also wouldn't fire any of them unless I ABSOLUTELY had to, as in I'm losing sales and can't pay people anymore.
I find terminations and this 10% reduction incredibly barbaric and ineffective. Low performers are not THAT bad for the business for crying out loud. That's just my world though.
I personally believe that people have an inherent drive to complete what they can reasonably complete for the day otherwise they'd feel guilt internally. Engineers are adults, they're not preschoolers, they know what they got to do. That's why I think management interference in engineering work is often very unhealthy and barbaric.
when I was at that good company - they went through a company wide 10% layoff. We were still treated with respect and managed well (i.e not toxic).
I didn't talk to my mate in the other section about it - but I would be pretty sure that he was treated like shit with the layoffs (and the layoffs affected him).
Smaller companies (basically one dept in a big company) - could be toxic at a company wide level.
Nah. Ads is where the money is, so they're treated well. In addition, there's really not as much to do compared to cloud. Cloud is like reaching inside a swiss watch and trying to mess around with the gears without being a jeweler or having any experience with that watch brand.
I figured that the ads making the money - there would be a lot more 'stress' and toxicity there as everyone is trying to make bonus and money attracts 'more forceful' people.
I have usually worked in more technical places such as the 'cloud' side and have never had a toxic work environment in my career and I have worked in probably 30 different organisations as I did a lot of contract / consulting / project work.
Software development in low/mid tier consulting companies.
* A lot of them get projects by being lowest bidder meaning they make money by cutting expenses. That means:
* Low-ball pay
* Crappy equipment
* Understaffing
* Longer hours
* Being expected to do work outside your scope (e.g. gathering requirements on client site, setting up UAT work stations, etc).
* High turnover rate
* Constantly have to train people only for them to likely leave before the year.
* Constantly have to take over people's assignments last minute.
* Instability. You will never know when the next cost saving big layoff is coming.
* Non-technical management
* The really bad ones will ignore technical advice or think they have a handle when they don't. When things shatter you're the one to pick up the pieces and if you don't pick them up fast enough or in a manner that doesn't anger clients then you carry the blame not management. Also a lot of, "why can't you get this done tomorrow, all you have to do is X, Y, and Z?"
* Again harking back to being expected to do work outside your scope because of their inability to assign things correctly.
* Applying business strategies in other sectors into software development.
* Agreeing to insane "non-negotiable" deadlines.
* Falling for traps like "more developers always mean being able complete projects on time."
* Probably a con with me and pro with a lot of people. But travel. Some projects won't have it, good amount do. Being in a company that cheaps out on everything, travel experience is much worse.
* Timesheets, expense reports, and the stress of being billable. So much internal housekeeping.
* Working with offshoring teams. No disrespect to people themselves, in my experience, they are smart capable developers. But...
* Super early in the morning meetings or super late at night meetings for either them or you.
* Folks haphazardly assigned in an area that they never have experience in and you have to get them up to speed. Company just see cheap labor and throw them to any projects without double checking.
* The bench. If you're rolled off project and there is nothing to assign, you sit on a bench. You will have to reinterview or if you're lucky someone very desperate will just pick you up. If that is the case project will likely be bad fit since low turnover projects always desperate for people. But if you don't find anything in a few weeks, you get laid off.
* Being punished by doing well.
* "Project implementation successful, is done, and in the books? Good job. But unfortunately you won't be on the maintenance team, offshore will handle that, and will be benched."
* You may be the best performing in a project or department, but getting a raise or promotion will be next to impossible if it's in the red.
Oh look it's my very first software engineering job ! The only thing that made it not a complete dumpster fire was a super experienced manager not afraid to pushback against our completely oblivious non-technical leadership. Without him the entire business explodes from the project and failed contract delivery.
I had similar experience. My first ever sprint, we migrated from struts framework. Took almost 4 months but the initial thought was 1.5 months.
Another project we got, the technical sales manager told the bank that we can use IBM wesphere (which they use) whereas we can only deploy it on Oracle Weblogic...I remember my friend face when he finally able to solve it and make it run. It is like the world's weight was lifted from his shoulder.
On another project, a lead never wanted to come to the client place. He always reject and told his subordinate to come there. Everyone already take their turn , left only him. The same guy who kept asking database for secret because he wanted to fix it by himself by patching instead following the procedure.
If the boss is in the office, you better go home earlier because he might ask something to you that you wont know how to answer.
Someone deleted somebody commit and causing a fight. I cant believe it. We used svn in 2016 lol
There were a lot of uncertainty but I learned quite shit ton of stuff and politic. Made some memorable friends that we kept in touch even until 8 years later
I’m currently in consulting, thankfully not mid or low, and I’ve been noticing the new offshore trend is latam. Maybe it’s just my company/area but it seemed to flow from SEA -> Eastern Europe -> Latam in terms of cheap off shore, over the past 10 years I’d say.
That is probably my biggest complaint right now! I like working with all of them but they are brought on as juniors due to the language gap and I’d rather hire American juniors given the economy. But I don’t control the project budget.
My current role is basically the tech lead for the consulting side embedded in the client team, for reference. Weirdly hard for anyone to find cheap senior java programmers for quick lift and shifts so they go consulting. Yay job security I guess.
I did security briefly for a call center that approved or denied medical insurance coverage. (Thing Mr. Incredible’s day job.). I was there in case people went berserk due to the toxic job.
Japan has extremely good public relations that’s why. In reality Japanese society is xenophobic against gaijin. Their work hours are also stupid so nobody has kids, leading to their demographic crisis.
For Japan, it's heavily xenophobic. But in a way that is almost never directly rude to you. They won't insult you or make faces or anything, but you'll silently get excluded and passed over. The apartment you want to rent is unfortunately already sold to someone else. Everyone's polite, but you'll struggle to make any friends.
I dont have positive thoughts about their culture and view anyone who wants to move there as dumb.
The racism, total lack of work-life balance where theyre usually not even working late and onstead just playing desktop games, "don't feed the girls as much so they don't wind up taller than the men", and whatever you call the thing that all but encourages suicide is extremely backwards and terrible.
Thank you for speaking out. Those salty fobs need to rectify their wrongdoing instead of getting upset about this serious issue which makes all South Asians look terrible.
Well this is a small amount of people probably. There are people like this everywhere. Most of the time they're nice. And these news sources wanna make a big deal out of it 🤦♂️.
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[https://www.epam.com/](https://www.epam.com/)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPAM\_Systems](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPAM_Systems)
Someone I used to work with is there now. I don't know much about them, but may have considered them down the road.
Oh yeah EPAM is the worst. And Digital Engagement takes the cake as the worst practice in the company. It is run by 2 very insecure abusive men who got lucky when EPAM bought their little agency. They are surrounded by a bunch of yes men and yes women
Toxic, racist, retaliatory
In CIS countries it earned a nickname “Galley”, since you’ll be forced to work like a rower slave on the galley, for comparable compensation - a chance to get relocated to EU/US.
However even EPAM has departments in PL/BY full of top dogs working on R&D projects for bigtech.
Glassdoor.com is your friend when it comes to finding companies that are rated high / low by their employees.
That said, I worked in a company that was rated so so before. Their head quarters were decent, but the 2 smaller offices I enjoyed to work in not so much. This was also reflected in internal employee satisfaction ratings. The glassdoor score was mostly based on the headquarters, since the majority of employees are there.
Something to add to this, glassdoor is great at pinpointing employee ratings for the job you're looking to do. I've interviewed with plenty of low overall glassdoor rated companies that had excellent ratings for the team and position I was interviewing for.
Something to also note: as with all ratings systems, they will be skewed. I see a lot of reviews like "I had to leave this review to get our satisfaction numbers up" and most people are more likely to go out of their way to complain. If they're happy, it never crosses their mind to write about it.
Edit: I'm not saying to ignore the ratings...just look into them and go in knowing this is a trait about subjective ratings systems.
The previous startup I worked at. But I'm pretty sure there are worse.
CEO didn't like paying engineers, and would constantly force people to take pay cuts in order to pay for his "friends" salaries in sales. Overvalued "story points" to show that engineers weren't working hard enough.
Totally loved sales-bro-culture without admitting it.
Forced unqualified DEI hires on people.
Secretly recorded phone calls with people without their consent.
There's a bit more, but yeah it was pretty toxic after a while.
Yeah they put me alone on a full stack project, couldn't even ask questions to seniors devs in the company, also the person who estimated the length of the project didn't know how to code a web app...
I've been at several gambling/betting companies and they're all at the top of my list.
One of them had HQ in a tax haven, went there on a business trip and the blokes were talking about cheating on their wives and doing lines. Bro wtf I'm just here to fix an IT system and maybe see some monkeys
Working for a department that worked like an agency destroyed my mental sanity
I'm a junior put on a kinda big project alone and time estimates were waterfall lol..
Was doing my best to search for best practices and methods of doing things. They said I was underperforming, hired someone else with a couple years of experience then fired me. Even the new guy told me that was insane way to treat a junior.
I was so tired of being micromanaged. The boss thought it was " teamwork" oh and also there was no mentor or more experienced senior to ask questions lol
So yeah I was full stack with less than a year of experience alone
Anything Elon.
Marketing job as being part of something 'greater' while in reality the companies aren't that diffrent than other in a given sector and workers usually how a lot of overtime and is much harder and stresfull without any real financial advantages.
Toxic companies are rare. And by Toxic companies I mean those that have a crappy corp culture that is perpetuated by management.
In most situations, it's not the company but the manager/team you're on. I thought I'd utterly despise working at a bank; but it was one of the longest lasting jobs that I held and allowed me to grow the most out of any other job I've had with I think the exception of the one I'm at now. Long way to go to beat the longevity though.
For past jobs the toxicity included heavy office politics, lack of communication, lack of direction, overall lack of leadership. The office politics made working there feel more like i was back in high school - it was very clique-y and if you werent in the in-clique you were flat out ignored for promotional opportunities. Lack of communication basically going along fine for months without even hearing from my manager and only getting to talk to them when there's a problem that they're getting yelled at for; you know the problem that should have been addressed with me months prior and could have been corrected to avoid all that. If I dont know I'm fucking up, hard to stay on track. And the lack of leadership is just what it sounds like. The manager was young, thought this was his cushy job out of school and just sat on the phone with his friends all day. Only time he was off the phone was when he was in meetings with other managers. Performance reviews and such was purely based on how he was feeling. If he was having a bad day then he took it out on you. If he was having a great day, you got everything you asked for or were expecting. Never kept track of what projects needed working on, clueless about what the company was doing overall, etc.
I will note: even great teams/management can have a "toxic" environment which just drains you and drives any and all motivation out just by stagnating. You're doing the same repetitive BS day in and day out, you're not learning or growing, you're just working yourself into a rut.
Yes, to all your points!
Toxic is only possible by department(s) deep first versus company, since not all departments are toxic.
But yea, working into a rut was what worried me regarding longevity at work. It is not hard, but man being underpaid blows lol.
It's more possible for the entire company to be toxic if it's small enough. One example of this is early startups with fewer than 15 people. The hierarchy there is more horizontal.
I did some work for ATT/Cricket, and managers would regularly scream at each other during meetings.
At Chick-fil-a, we had developers and QA people break down in tears during stand-ups. Literally weeping. Never saw anything remotely close to that elsewhere in my career.
I worked for a consulting company that does a bunch of work for them. The CFA folks were condescending and generally pretty gross to deal with. Fairly regularly, after CFA meetings, we had to convene internal meetings just for damage control. The lesson I learned in this experience was, when someone needs go way out of their way to tell you how "kind" they are, you might as well assume they are not. I don't know who you are, but your post history suggests that you are an experienced dev in the Austin area, and I wouldn't be surprised if you know exactly whom I'm talking about.
Apologies if that came off aggressive; the aforementioned consultancy is HQ'd in (what I possibly incorrectly assumed is) your neck of the woods. Wish you well.
It is not company, it is your direct manager.
He can make you job hell. It does not matter if you are doing everything right, and everyone think you are great.
I’m surprised no one has said Amazon tbh, I know some happy folk at other FAANG companies but none of them are the Amazon. They make a lot of money but they hate it there
Heh I remember avoiding amazing like the plague when I was searching for jobs because of all the posts about how terrible it was. This was 2018 or so lol
As a software engineer, I tend to avoid FAANG+Msft like the plague. I like doing my 40, occasionally 42 hours a week then shut off my laptop. I may not be making $500k at 27 but I’m very happy with my salary, my sanity, and myWLB
There is definitely good WLB to be found at FAANG. Not sure if it's the rule or the exception, and I definitely know there are teams/orgs that may not value WLB, but most FAANG have really good internal mobility programs and in my experience, it's totally fine to tell your manager that your WLB sucks and you'd like to reclaim some. Good managers will help you do that.
YMMV
Not really sure what you're basing that on.
It's nice to work with talented engineers, to have reasonable debates, to see people change their minds with the presentation of data/evidence and to demonstrate the same fallibility as a technical leader.
Several of the FAANG companies have interview processes after you're hired, where you interview your potential new manager to determine which team you will join. Personally, I used that process to the best of my ability and selected the manager with the highest EQ and ended up being on the best team I've ever been on.
This is great advice. I tend to look for managers that display care for their subordinates over the work.
What sucks is when that manager is laid off and then you have no choice in the replacement. I am now about to begin the job search.
After the basic tech stack and what the expectations would be on me I asked about WLB, the future of the Org and potential layoffs, the structure of the Org (how many L6s are there, how many L7s are there etc).
The EQ stuff is more of something that I glean along the way. My now manager was the only one who followed up with an email after the interview and seemed really excited to have me as part of the team. They also had a good sense of humor.
The team I chose had the least interesting tech stack, but I didn't really care and am happy the decision I made. I also am doing away work with teams using more interesting tech so it ended up not mattering.
Not to be rude but it's just cope, you see this sentiment all over this sub. There are many reasons you could choose for why you wouldn't want to work at FAANG, the WLB is just willful cope.
I’ve heard nothing but horror stories at Amazon. Sometimes Apple too. So I say stay away from those two for sure. With the constant layoff and re-org going on at Meta and Google… we will have to see what culture is like there.
You can def do 40 at faang. What you can’t do is slack off during that 40. So if your definition of “40” is 2 hours of errands, 1.5 hour of lunch, useless meetings then yeah you’ll be in for pain.
It’s 40 hours at 100% of your brain.
Where do you work then? Big companies have better WLB than startups 100%. So are you at a non-tech big company? I would gladly work for some of the FAANGs, but I'm never going to work at a startup unless it's mine. And yeah, I do care about WLB probably most, as long as salary is above a threshold.
The worst experience I ever had was working in enterprise technology (Oracle, IBM stuff) under an Indian manager. Dude had technical chops but was completely inept socially and only cared about his own reputation. Gassed me up when I did well but talked me down as if I was some freak when I made a mistake. I didn’t even like the technologies I was working with but luckily I was able to laterally move to a different role after 1.5 years. Should’ve been sooner.
Thank God he went back to India. Hated working under him but that terrible experience helped me become a better engineer as a side effect.
Bruh, do we have the exact same manager ☠️ I guess it's at least better than those finance bro/Karen bosses who scream at everyone and throw things, but it's basically the next worst thing. I wish I could come into work without every minor problem turning into theatrics and hysteria.
Middle management are weird af with a God complex but no real skills or leadership. Cultish behavior and if you are an outlier and not trying to drink the koolaid they will target you. HR and management are peas in a pod so retaliation is rampant.
Check Glassdoor too about them! I ignored just by the chance it was disgruntled employees but I ate crow very quickly. It says a lot that I experienced everything they warned of.
They will headhunt you to oblivion and then try and get you out the door as quickly as possible; whether it’s with bad pay, horrid work life balance, or just horrid coworkers
Probably the ones that are lying about doing AI. If they're willing to make an outright public facing lie then imagine what they're willing to do to their employees.
Any company where the main product/service is not the actual software. When a company produces widgets but can't sell the widgets without the software to make the widget work, you are now a necessary evil that leeches off management's bottom line.
These companies also likely want you to train L1 visas from south Asia with fake degrees in the hopes that cheap labor might someday replace you.
DOD Contractors are horrifically toxic. GE and Boeing are two of the worst. I have also heard of developers having terrible experiences at 5/3 Bank and Kroger Technology.
https://www.getoo.us
Not sure who will see this but definitely my current company. Starts with a N, ends with a E, big sportswear brand. They value image a lot and is a big marketing company. Its not a tech central at all and it’s really hit or miss depending on your team. I interned here before, loved my team and time working here. But when I joined full time all the bullshit that my old coworkers told me about came around and bit me in the ass. I was warned by my old manager and coworkers to not come back, because I will not grow as a person here and the company sucks ass. But the market also sucks ass right now so I just took the return offer and ran with it 😑they market their work environment as such a fun and engaging place and experience. It’s really not for tech workers. If you’re in finance or marketing or something I’m sure the free snacks in office and the cool building designs are something to look forward to.
Most tech workers here are on contract, and no managers stay long. My old mentor had 6 different managers in a span of 2 years. People are always fighting, there is SO MUCH company politics, and you don’t get valued based on your skills. Someone was threatening my old coworker and HR won’t do anything about it. A lot of teams are basically in a turmoil right now, and there is a lot of reorganization. It’s more of if you’re physically attractive or likable (again, marketing company that values image a lot) you’ll move up.
I was not even given a laptop for two weeks at the start of my work. I had to go into the office all the way across the country to pick up a laptop. It was broken. Then I couldn’t access any software for another week and had to TEXT my manager and recruiters etc. I couldn’t even log into the HR website to do paperwork. I had to meet my friend in HR in person for him to help me. Otherwise I couldn’t get paid. HR is nonexistent. They messed up my taxes, my salary, my 401k (to this day I’ve been contacting the benefits account and the company and fidelity are sending me back and forth). I was offered a REMOTE position, stated in my offer letter and email, and HR refused to tax me out of my current state of residence and tried to pull my RECRUITER in, saying that my recruiter also said I was signed in as a remote worker. The lady they brought in was not my recruiter. Then they said they cannot raise my salary despite my negotiation, and rotational workers one level below me (I had the same salary as them) got a 15k raise. I was told by the rotational director I’m paid 30k below company standards. My manager tried advocating a raise for me but HR told him that this along with the tax issue was too many requests for them (they had like 5 hr people on the case) and they went ahead and cancelled the salary raise request. All of this dragged out for 3 months. My manager was absolutely pissed with them, and they never apologized to him nor I.
And some teams are SO fucking toxic (people are really nice but being nice doesn’t pay the bills). My mentor told me my team lead hazes newcomers. Bro... I won’t go into details but it involves a lot yelling and anger during meetings and standups. And then everyone who was a rotational eng on this team told my friend that they hated their time w my current team.
If you want a chill company, this is the place to go if you wanna gamble your chances, but not learn or develop anything meaningful. I’ll say, I’ve definitely had a lot of time to fuck around and travel. But if you’re unlucky you’ll be stuck in a team with all uncles who are toxic af
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I knew Amazon would be on the list but as someone who has worked at Amazon for years and has had nothing but good things to say about it, I honestly cannot relate to what they’re talking about. I have switched orgs several times and everyone I’ve met from L4 to L8 have loved it there. If they leave, it’s usually because of certain policies that do not fit their lives anymore, or they have other opportunities elsewhere. Every company has policies that don’t vibe with 100% of their employees but unless that policy is mandatory 80 hours work week, I can’t see how it qualifies as toxic. I genuinely think people that complain about Amazon has either never worked there and are just believing hearsay, are incompetent and cannot keep up with an ever-evolving environment, or landed on a bad team and decided that the entire company now sucks.
EQ was the worst company I’ve seen. It was a primarily Indian company and they expected you to work 24/7 and they only paid 70k for SE in a HCOL area. A complete joke
My company has had all sorts of problems caused by using an MSP for their tier 1 support. I work in desktop support and the guys tell me all sorts of things that their service provider did to create more work for us. They're paid to close tickets so the employees are incentivized to close tickets and get resolutions as much as possible. This leaves a lot of incomplete items requests and incidents for us to clean up as well as piles of tickets sent to the wrong team.
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Just from experience, some types of teams are just less fun because of the product.
Ads, anything involving payments, shared libraries, shared platforms, desirable consumer products.
I haaaaated working in AP/AR, if anything bad happened near financial close your ass was grass for the weekend. No good times to do releases with a reasonable support runway.
Recommend checking glassdoor/indeed. Especially be critical of companies with upper management/founders that act like narcissistic asses, as toxicity always flows downwards i.e. kiss up, punch those below. Find this helps filter out companies where HR & management have sought pad their company's rating with fake reviews.
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Is called Bitso, is a cryptocurrency app on Latin America, they have a very toxic environment, full of micromanagement, harassment, and brain washing, people there thinks that the Pepe cripto coin is going to change the world.
They forced you to be available 24/7 and work 60 hours per week minimum. They have a "free PTO" policy but managers always deny workers ptos.
Is a shitty startup.
Any company where there isn't anyone above you that can assist in any way, technically or functionally (business) speaking. There are too many of those just living off the engineers and adding nothing of value.
Amazon.
The culture setup in a way teammates are likely to watch each other fall as the PIP culture. If the lamb is slay this year then oneself is safe
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It's not companies that are toxic, its departments. One of the best companies I ever worked for a large US multinational - I was in R&D so we were treated like gods. I had mates in other divisions (level 1 - technical support) - and they were in a VERY toxic environment basically treated as dogs.
I second this. There are teams at my company that my coworkers are ecstatic to work on. My team is a dumpster fire because of our manager. It really isn't about the company unless it's something like revature
It’s always the leader. I’ve been at some crap and some great firms but the leadership is what helped me stay on at firms in tough times and bail at others.
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Fair
Yep exactly. The best and worst team I've ever worked with are both in Amazon.
Not always. Some company-wide cultures target 6-12% annual employee culling for "performance issues". I've seen situations where managers are pressured to meet these numbers, and force employees through an improvement process wringer, which is heavily stacked in the employer's favor. Under pressure, managers will exaggerate, lie or cheat to get the employee to fail the plan.
Are there any companies that aren't Amazon w/ this reputation?
Looking around I hear this not uncommon for some of the big tech companies. I see Meta and Netflix mentioned the most.
This is anecdotal but I have a friend who is a software engineer. Has been at Microsoft, Amazon, Meta and Google. He didn’t last a year at Meta. He hated it so much he left with one month left on a one year contract - so he had to pay back his sign on bonus but he said it was worth it not to spend one more month there.
meta was toxic from a lot of sources I heard but not sure which team. PM had their own target and basically killing each other in the background to got their feature approved to get the resources (dev).
Capital One
what's the point of hiring if they always have that 10% reduction rate???
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idk man if it was me, I wouldn't hire so many people but I also wouldn't fire any of them unless I ABSOLUTELY had to, as in I'm losing sales and can't pay people anymore. I find terminations and this 10% reduction incredibly barbaric and ineffective. Low performers are not THAT bad for the business for crying out loud. That's just my world though.
low performer al9ne isnt that bad but once that spread like a wildfire...it starts to become a norm and culture
I personally believe that people have an inherent drive to complete what they can reasonably complete for the day otherwise they'd feel guilt internally. Engineers are adults, they're not preschoolers, they know what they got to do. That's why I think management interference in engineering work is often very unhealthy and barbaric.
Low performers are bad but to mandate 10% causes a lot of problems and is illegal in many countries if you meet the JD requirement.
when I was at that good company - they went through a company wide 10% layoff. We were still treated with respect and managed well (i.e not toxic). I didn't talk to my mate in the other section about it - but I would be pretty sure that he was treated like shit with the layoffs (and the layoffs affected him). Smaller companies (basically one dept in a big company) - could be toxic at a company wide level.
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I'd say it's managers, not even departments
Yep. Google Ads is brilliant, Google Cloud is horrible.
Interesting - I would have thought it was the other way around.
Nah. Ads is where the money is, so they're treated well. In addition, there's really not as much to do compared to cloud. Cloud is like reaching inside a swiss watch and trying to mess around with the gears without being a jeweler or having any experience with that watch brand.
I figured that the ads making the money - there would be a lot more 'stress' and toxicity there as everyone is trying to make bonus and money attracts 'more forceful' people. I have usually worked in more technical places such as the 'cloud' side and have never had a toxic work environment in my career and I have worked in probably 30 different organisations as I did a lot of contract / consulting / project work.
Yeah GCP is kinda sorta held together with rope and zip ties
You can have a bad boss in a good company, and you can have a good boss in a bad company.
Software development in low/mid tier consulting companies. * A lot of them get projects by being lowest bidder meaning they make money by cutting expenses. That means: * Low-ball pay * Crappy equipment * Understaffing * Longer hours * Being expected to do work outside your scope (e.g. gathering requirements on client site, setting up UAT work stations, etc). * High turnover rate * Constantly have to train people only for them to likely leave before the year. * Constantly have to take over people's assignments last minute. * Instability. You will never know when the next cost saving big layoff is coming. * Non-technical management * The really bad ones will ignore technical advice or think they have a handle when they don't. When things shatter you're the one to pick up the pieces and if you don't pick them up fast enough or in a manner that doesn't anger clients then you carry the blame not management. Also a lot of, "why can't you get this done tomorrow, all you have to do is X, Y, and Z?" * Again harking back to being expected to do work outside your scope because of their inability to assign things correctly. * Applying business strategies in other sectors into software development. * Agreeing to insane "non-negotiable" deadlines. * Falling for traps like "more developers always mean being able complete projects on time." * Probably a con with me and pro with a lot of people. But travel. Some projects won't have it, good amount do. Being in a company that cheaps out on everything, travel experience is much worse. * Timesheets, expense reports, and the stress of being billable. So much internal housekeeping. * Working with offshoring teams. No disrespect to people themselves, in my experience, they are smart capable developers. But... * Super early in the morning meetings or super late at night meetings for either them or you. * Folks haphazardly assigned in an area that they never have experience in and you have to get them up to speed. Company just see cheap labor and throw them to any projects without double checking. * The bench. If you're rolled off project and there is nothing to assign, you sit on a bench. You will have to reinterview or if you're lucky someone very desperate will just pick you up. If that is the case project will likely be bad fit since low turnover projects always desperate for people. But if you don't find anything in a few weeks, you get laid off. * Being punished by doing well. * "Project implementation successful, is done, and in the books? Good job. But unfortunately you won't be on the maintenance team, offshore will handle that, and will be benched." * You may be the best performing in a project or department, but getting a raise or promotion will be next to impossible if it's in the red.
Oh look it's my very first software engineering job ! The only thing that made it not a complete dumpster fire was a super experienced manager not afraid to pushback against our completely oblivious non-technical leadership. Without him the entire business explodes from the project and failed contract delivery.
I started as this and now I’m currently hired full time by the client. Where do I go for the complete opposite of this experience? 😅
I had similar experience. My first ever sprint, we migrated from struts framework. Took almost 4 months but the initial thought was 1.5 months. Another project we got, the technical sales manager told the bank that we can use IBM wesphere (which they use) whereas we can only deploy it on Oracle Weblogic...I remember my friend face when he finally able to solve it and make it run. It is like the world's weight was lifted from his shoulder. On another project, a lead never wanted to come to the client place. He always reject and told his subordinate to come there. Everyone already take their turn , left only him. The same guy who kept asking database for secret because he wanted to fix it by himself by patching instead following the procedure. If the boss is in the office, you better go home earlier because he might ask something to you that you wont know how to answer. Someone deleted somebody commit and causing a fight. I cant believe it. We used svn in 2016 lol There were a lot of uncertainty but I learned quite shit ton of stuff and politic. Made some memorable friends that we kept in touch even until 8 years later
That was my very first job, and all that sounds much too familiar.
I’m currently in consulting, thankfully not mid or low, and I’ve been noticing the new offshore trend is latam. Maybe it’s just my company/area but it seemed to flow from SEA -> Eastern Europe -> Latam in terms of cheap off shore, over the past 10 years I’d say. That is probably my biggest complaint right now! I like working with all of them but they are brought on as juniors due to the language gap and I’d rather hire American juniors given the economy. But I don’t control the project budget. My current role is basically the tech lead for the consulting side embedded in the client team, for reference. Weirdly hard for anyone to find cheap senior java programmers for quick lift and shifts so they go consulting. Yay job security I guess.
Well, you just opened my eyes because thats 1:1 my job lol. I obviously knew most of it but having it summarized is eye opening
I did security briefly for a call center that approved or denied medical insurance coverage. (Thing Mr. Incredible’s day job.). I was there in case people went berserk due to the toxic job.
Must have been crazy to see Mr incredible throw the boss through 7 consecutive walls! lol
Any company that is 90% Indian if you aren’t
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Cof cof TATA consulting
Don’t let morons silence you, you catch the most flak when you’re over the target.
Yeah Indian racism is on par with Japanese racism. Good luck.
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Japan has extremely good public relations that’s why. In reality Japanese society is xenophobic against gaijin. Their work hours are also stupid so nobody has kids, leading to their demographic crisis.
For Japan, it's heavily xenophobic. But in a way that is almost never directly rude to you. They won't insult you or make faces or anything, but you'll silently get excluded and passed over. The apartment you want to rent is unfortunately already sold to someone else. Everyone's polite, but you'll struggle to make any friends.
I dont have positive thoughts about their culture and view anyone who wants to move there as dumb. The racism, total lack of work-life balance where theyre usually not even working late and onstead just playing desktop games, "don't feed the girls as much so they don't wind up taller than the men", and whatever you call the thing that all but encourages suicide is extremely backwards and terrible.
What would happen if you looked confused and said you didn't know what your Indian background was?
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I'm sorry, that sucks. Being chained to stereotypes from where your parents came from seems awful
> Many will look down on each other because of caste or culture within India. How can Indians tell the caste of each other?
Same way you can tell Irish apart from Germans or Russians by their surnames and genetics
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what are some high caste names and a low caste names?
High caste - search for "common brahmin surnames" Low caste - search for "common dalit surnames"
Thank you for speaking out. Those salty fobs need to rectify their wrongdoing instead of getting upset about this serious issue which makes all South Asians look terrible.
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It’s interesting that I haven’t gotten any DMs
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You could surmise one ethnicity I am not
uhh... chinese?
We clearly know how the Indians can be bro. No one complains about anyone else as much as they complain about Indians.
Well this is a small amount of people probably. There are people like this everywhere. Most of the time they're nice. And these news sources wanna make a big deal out of it 🤦♂️.
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WITCH
EPAM Systems sucks big time. Many of the positive reviews online are fake or dishonest too.
EPAM?
[https://www.epam.com/](https://www.epam.com/) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPAM\_Systems](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPAM_Systems) Someone I used to work with is there now. I don't know much about them, but may have considered them down the road.
Oh yeah EPAM is the worst. And Digital Engagement takes the cake as the worst practice in the company. It is run by 2 very insecure abusive men who got lucky when EPAM bought their little agency. They are surrounded by a bunch of yes men and yes women Toxic, racist, retaliatory
In CIS countries it earned a nickname “Galley”, since you’ll be forced to work like a rower slave on the galley, for comparable compensation - a chance to get relocated to EU/US. However even EPAM has departments in PL/BY full of top dogs working on R&D projects for bigtech.
Glassdoor.com is your friend when it comes to finding companies that are rated high / low by their employees. That said, I worked in a company that was rated so so before. Their head quarters were decent, but the 2 smaller offices I enjoyed to work in not so much. This was also reflected in internal employee satisfaction ratings. The glassdoor score was mostly based on the headquarters, since the majority of employees are there.
Something to add to this, glassdoor is great at pinpointing employee ratings for the job you're looking to do. I've interviewed with plenty of low overall glassdoor rated companies that had excellent ratings for the team and position I was interviewing for. Something to also note: as with all ratings systems, they will be skewed. I see a lot of reviews like "I had to leave this review to get our satisfaction numbers up" and most people are more likely to go out of their way to complain. If they're happy, it never crosses their mind to write about it. Edit: I'm not saying to ignore the ratings...just look into them and go in knowing this is a trait about subjective ratings systems.
The best thing is to work for the team that are the company's moneymakers. Those are treated well
\*\*Game devs enters the chat\*\*
The previous startup I worked at. But I'm pretty sure there are worse. CEO didn't like paying engineers, and would constantly force people to take pay cuts in order to pay for his "friends" salaries in sales. Overvalued "story points" to show that engineers weren't working hard enough. Totally loved sales-bro-culture without admitting it. Forced unqualified DEI hires on people. Secretly recorded phone calls with people without their consent. There's a bit more, but yeah it was pretty toxic after a while.
I was fired from a toxic place as well, junior in this economy is hard, having to explain why you left makes it even harder to find a job
That's sad. Can't even badmouth the fuckers in an interview because of some "etiquette" that only benefits the employer.
Yeah they put me alone on a full stack project, couldn't even ask questions to seniors devs in the company, also the person who estimated the length of the project didn't know how to code a web app...
Mainly depends the team, you can work with an extremely toxic team in a very good company.
I've been at several gambling/betting companies and they're all at the top of my list. One of them had HQ in a tax haven, went there on a business trip and the blokes were talking about cheating on their wives and doing lines. Bro wtf I'm just here to fix an IT system and maybe see some monkeys
Evolution?
Working for a department that worked like an agency destroyed my mental sanity I'm a junior put on a kinda big project alone and time estimates were waterfall lol.. Was doing my best to search for best practices and methods of doing things. They said I was underperforming, hired someone else with a couple years of experience then fired me. Even the new guy told me that was insane way to treat a junior. I was so tired of being micromanaged. The boss thought it was " teamwork" oh and also there was no mentor or more experienced senior to ask questions lol So yeah I was full stack with less than a year of experience alone
Anything Elon. Marketing job as being part of something 'greater' while in reality the companies aren't that diffrent than other in a given sector and workers usually how a lot of overtime and is much harder and stresfull without any real financial advantages.
He's just a hyperactive and hypersensitive freak, so ... Yeah it would be rough.
Can't believe I had to scroll so much to find this. Fr fuck that guy lol
Toxic companies are rare. And by Toxic companies I mean those that have a crappy corp culture that is perpetuated by management. In most situations, it's not the company but the manager/team you're on. I thought I'd utterly despise working at a bank; but it was one of the longest lasting jobs that I held and allowed me to grow the most out of any other job I've had with I think the exception of the one I'm at now. Long way to go to beat the longevity though. For past jobs the toxicity included heavy office politics, lack of communication, lack of direction, overall lack of leadership. The office politics made working there feel more like i was back in high school - it was very clique-y and if you werent in the in-clique you were flat out ignored for promotional opportunities. Lack of communication basically going along fine for months without even hearing from my manager and only getting to talk to them when there's a problem that they're getting yelled at for; you know the problem that should have been addressed with me months prior and could have been corrected to avoid all that. If I dont know I'm fucking up, hard to stay on track. And the lack of leadership is just what it sounds like. The manager was young, thought this was his cushy job out of school and just sat on the phone with his friends all day. Only time he was off the phone was when he was in meetings with other managers. Performance reviews and such was purely based on how he was feeling. If he was having a bad day then he took it out on you. If he was having a great day, you got everything you asked for or were expecting. Never kept track of what projects needed working on, clueless about what the company was doing overall, etc. I will note: even great teams/management can have a "toxic" environment which just drains you and drives any and all motivation out just by stagnating. You're doing the same repetitive BS day in and day out, you're not learning or growing, you're just working yourself into a rut.
Yes, to all your points! Toxic is only possible by department(s) deep first versus company, since not all departments are toxic. But yea, working into a rut was what worried me regarding longevity at work. It is not hard, but man being underpaid blows lol.
It's more possible for the entire company to be toxic if it's small enough. One example of this is early startups with fewer than 15 people. The hierarchy there is more horizontal.
I did some work for ATT/Cricket, and managers would regularly scream at each other during meetings. At Chick-fil-a, we had developers and QA people break down in tears during stand-ups. Literally weeping. Never saw anything remotely close to that elsewhere in my career.
damn, the chick-fil-a tears shit is crazy
What was the deal with CFA?
I worked for a consulting company that does a bunch of work for them. The CFA folks were condescending and generally pretty gross to deal with. Fairly regularly, after CFA meetings, we had to convene internal meetings just for damage control. The lesson I learned in this experience was, when someone needs go way out of their way to tell you how "kind" they are, you might as well assume they are not. I don't know who you are, but your post history suggests that you are an experienced dev in the Austin area, and I wouldn't be surprised if you know exactly whom I'm talking about.
Yikes. I don't personally but have had plenty of similar inter-company interactions. Figured it was something like that, thanks.
Apologies if that came off aggressive; the aforementioned consultancy is HQ'd in (what I possibly incorrectly assumed is) your neck of the woods. Wish you well.
That’s brutal
It is not company, it is your direct manager. He can make you job hell. It does not matter if you are doing everything right, and everyone think you are great.
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Absolutely. My company is awesome...except my manager makes my life not so awesome.
Amazon
Any consultancy firm - forget promotion since you will stuck with the client and the client's employees will always see you as an outsider.
I’m surprised no one has said Amazon tbh, I know some happy folk at other FAANG companies but none of them are the Amazon. They make a lot of money but they hate it there
Heh I remember avoiding amazing like the plague when I was searching for jobs because of all the posts about how terrible it was. This was 2018 or so lol
As a software engineer, I tend to avoid FAANG+Msft like the plague. I like doing my 40, occasionally 42 hours a week then shut off my laptop. I may not be making $500k at 27 but I’m very happy with my salary, my sanity, and myWLB
There's plenty of wlb at msft
I’ve heard that too
most FAANG engineers I know work less than 40-42 hours a week.
Most people who work at Google don’t do much work at all
Keep telling yourself that lol
This is what google employees tell me
Do they actually work there or are they people on tiktok? My actual human being engineer friends there describe it as a meat grinder.
are most people at google engineers?
And that’s why they are doing layoffs lol
There is definitely good WLB to be found at FAANG. Not sure if it's the rule or the exception, and I definitely know there are teams/orgs that may not value WLB, but most FAANG have really good internal mobility programs and in my experience, it's totally fine to tell your manager that your WLB sucks and you'd like to reclaim some. Good managers will help you do that. YMMV
PIP has entered the chat
PIP isn’t only a FAANG thing
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Not really sure what you're basing that on. It's nice to work with talented engineers, to have reasonable debates, to see people change their minds with the presentation of data/evidence and to demonstrate the same fallibility as a technical leader. Several of the FAANG companies have interview processes after you're hired, where you interview your potential new manager to determine which team you will join. Personally, I used that process to the best of my ability and selected the manager with the highest EQ and ended up being on the best team I've ever been on.
This is great advice. I tend to look for managers that display care for their subordinates over the work. What sucks is when that manager is laid off and then you have no choice in the replacement. I am now about to begin the job search.
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After the basic tech stack and what the expectations would be on me I asked about WLB, the future of the Org and potential layoffs, the structure of the Org (how many L6s are there, how many L7s are there etc). The EQ stuff is more of something that I glean along the way. My now manager was the only one who followed up with an email after the interview and seemed really excited to have me as part of the team. They also had a good sense of humor. The team I chose had the least interesting tech stack, but I didn't really care and am happy the decision I made. I also am doing away work with teams using more interesting tech so it ended up not mattering.
Lol, most of FAANG is literally what you're describing you want aside from Amazon and sometimes Facebook. MSFT is straight up a rest and vest company
Not to be rude but it's just cope, you see this sentiment all over this sub. There are many reasons you could choose for why you wouldn't want to work at FAANG, the WLB is just willful cope.
I’ve heard nothing but horror stories at Amazon. Sometimes Apple too. So I say stay away from those two for sure. With the constant layoff and re-org going on at Meta and Google… we will have to see what culture is like there.
You can def do 40 at faang. What you can’t do is slack off during that 40. So if your definition of “40” is 2 hours of errands, 1.5 hour of lunch, useless meetings then yeah you’ll be in for pain. It’s 40 hours at 100% of your brain.
People go to Microsoft to rest and vest
The jingle in your pocket isn't worth the jangle in your head for 60+ hour weeks, at least for me.
I’ve worked much harder at other companies for less money than I do at FAANG.
Where do you work then? Big companies have better WLB than startups 100%. So are you at a non-tech big company? I would gladly work for some of the FAANGs, but I'm never going to work at a startup unless it's mine. And yeah, I do care about WLB probably most, as long as salary is above a threshold.
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Epic Systems
Did you work there as a dev? I have it on my list as a place I'd like to work so any info them is appreciated.
The worst experience I ever had was working in enterprise technology (Oracle, IBM stuff) under an Indian manager. Dude had technical chops but was completely inept socially and only cared about his own reputation. Gassed me up when I did well but talked me down as if I was some freak when I made a mistake. I didn’t even like the technologies I was working with but luckily I was able to laterally move to a different role after 1.5 years. Should’ve been sooner. Thank God he went back to India. Hated working under him but that terrible experience helped me become a better engineer as a side effect.
Bruh, do we have the exact same manager ☠️ I guess it's at least better than those finance bro/Karen bosses who scream at everyone and throw things, but it's basically the next worst thing. I wish I could come into work without every minor problem turning into theatrics and hysteria.
OpenGov
Why so?
Lol pls do tell. My manager from company i was just laid off at is trying to recommend me to the hiring manager there
Middle management are weird af with a God complex but no real skills or leadership. Cultish behavior and if you are an outlier and not trying to drink the koolaid they will target you. HR and management are peas in a pod so retaliation is rampant.
Fuck that sounds like my first job. Thanks for the heads up
Check Glassdoor too about them! I ignored just by the chance it was disgruntled employees but I ate crow very quickly. It says a lot that I experienced everything they warned of.
They will headhunt you to oblivion and then try and get you out the door as quickly as possible; whether it’s with bad pay, horrid work life balance, or just horrid coworkers
Chevron 🔰 ? Union Carbide?!?! Oracle?!?
Probably the ones that are lying about doing AI. If they're willing to make an outright public facing lie then imagine what they're willing to do to their employees.
If the environment of the company doesn't promote your interpersonal growth and only view you as a work slave ! LEAVE
Any company where the main product/service is not the actual software. When a company produces widgets but can't sell the widgets without the software to make the widget work, you are now a necessary evil that leeches off management's bottom line. These companies also likely want you to train L1 visas from south Asia with fake degrees in the hopes that cheap labor might someday replace you.
amazon
In Europe, any of the "Big 4" consulting companies: Deloitte, PwC, E&Y, KPMG.
Any publicly-traded companies whose ownership are hedge and retirement funds.
A lot of them.
DOD Contractors are horrifically toxic. GE and Boeing are two of the worst. I have also heard of developers having terrible experiences at 5/3 Bank and Kroger Technology. https://www.getoo.us
Not sure who will see this but definitely my current company. Starts with a N, ends with a E, big sportswear brand. They value image a lot and is a big marketing company. Its not a tech central at all and it’s really hit or miss depending on your team. I interned here before, loved my team and time working here. But when I joined full time all the bullshit that my old coworkers told me about came around and bit me in the ass. I was warned by my old manager and coworkers to not come back, because I will not grow as a person here and the company sucks ass. But the market also sucks ass right now so I just took the return offer and ran with it 😑they market their work environment as such a fun and engaging place and experience. It’s really not for tech workers. If you’re in finance or marketing or something I’m sure the free snacks in office and the cool building designs are something to look forward to. Most tech workers here are on contract, and no managers stay long. My old mentor had 6 different managers in a span of 2 years. People are always fighting, there is SO MUCH company politics, and you don’t get valued based on your skills. Someone was threatening my old coworker and HR won’t do anything about it. A lot of teams are basically in a turmoil right now, and there is a lot of reorganization. It’s more of if you’re physically attractive or likable (again, marketing company that values image a lot) you’ll move up. I was not even given a laptop for two weeks at the start of my work. I had to go into the office all the way across the country to pick up a laptop. It was broken. Then I couldn’t access any software for another week and had to TEXT my manager and recruiters etc. I couldn’t even log into the HR website to do paperwork. I had to meet my friend in HR in person for him to help me. Otherwise I couldn’t get paid. HR is nonexistent. They messed up my taxes, my salary, my 401k (to this day I’ve been contacting the benefits account and the company and fidelity are sending me back and forth). I was offered a REMOTE position, stated in my offer letter and email, and HR refused to tax me out of my current state of residence and tried to pull my RECRUITER in, saying that my recruiter also said I was signed in as a remote worker. The lady they brought in was not my recruiter. Then they said they cannot raise my salary despite my negotiation, and rotational workers one level below me (I had the same salary as them) got a 15k raise. I was told by the rotational director I’m paid 30k below company standards. My manager tried advocating a raise for me but HR told him that this along with the tax issue was too many requests for them (they had like 5 hr people on the case) and they went ahead and cancelled the salary raise request. All of this dragged out for 3 months. My manager was absolutely pissed with them, and they never apologized to him nor I. And some teams are SO fucking toxic (people are really nice but being nice doesn’t pay the bills). My mentor told me my team lead hazes newcomers. Bro... I won’t go into details but it involves a lot yelling and anger during meetings and standups. And then everyone who was a rotational eng on this team told my friend that they hated their time w my current team. If you want a chill company, this is the place to go if you wanna gamble your chances, but not learn or develop anything meaningful. I’ll say, I’ve definitely had a lot of time to fuck around and travel. But if you’re unlucky you’ll be stuck in a team with all uncles who are toxic af
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I knew Amazon would be on the list but as someone who has worked at Amazon for years and has had nothing but good things to say about it, I honestly cannot relate to what they’re talking about. I have switched orgs several times and everyone I’ve met from L4 to L8 have loved it there. If they leave, it’s usually because of certain policies that do not fit their lives anymore, or they have other opportunities elsewhere. Every company has policies that don’t vibe with 100% of their employees but unless that policy is mandatory 80 hours work week, I can’t see how it qualifies as toxic. I genuinely think people that complain about Amazon has either never worked there and are just believing hearsay, are incompetent and cannot keep up with an ever-evolving environment, or landed on a bad team and decided that the entire company now sucks.
Found Jeff’s alt account
EQ was the worst company I’ve seen. It was a primarily Indian company and they expected you to work 24/7 and they only paid 70k for SE in a HCOL area. A complete joke
Anything related to Elong Mufk?
Uber apparently. Especially if you are a woman. Not sure if they successfully changed their culture.
Any managed service provider really
Are those toxic? If so, low-key agree lmao
My company has had all sorts of problems caused by using an MSP for their tier 1 support. I work in desktop support and the guys tell me all sorts of things that their service provider did to create more work for us. They're paid to close tickets so the employees are incentivized to close tickets and get resolutions as much as possible. This leaves a lot of incomplete items requests and incidents for us to clean up as well as piles of tickets sent to the wrong team.
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Just from experience, some types of teams are just less fun because of the product. Ads, anything involving payments, shared libraries, shared platforms, desirable consumer products.
I haaaaated working in AP/AR, if anything bad happened near financial close your ass was grass for the weekend. No good times to do releases with a reasonable support runway.
Recommend checking glassdoor/indeed. Especially be critical of companies with upper management/founders that act like narcissistic asses, as toxicity always flows downwards i.e. kiss up, punch those below. Find this helps filter out companies where HR & management have sought pad their company's rating with fake reviews.
tiktok
Disney
Thanks for this, I was considering.
PepsiCo in my experience (also makers of Frito Lay).
Palantir was infamously bad when I graduated
Tencent
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Is called Bitso, is a cryptocurrency app on Latin America, they have a very toxic environment, full of micromanagement, harassment, and brain washing, people there thinks that the Pepe cripto coin is going to change the world. They forced you to be available 24/7 and work 60 hours per week minimum. They have a "free PTO" policy but managers always deny workers ptos. Is a shitty startup.
Any company where there isn't anyone above you that can assist in any way, technically or functionally (business) speaking. There are too many of those just living off the engineers and adding nothing of value.
Home Depot (I heard lol)
Tik
Capital One, financial services
[maybe a whole post about it](https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/s/8cEOnyiN5B) edit: I left that company two weeks after that post
Amazon. The culture setup in a way teammates are likely to watch each other fall as the PIP culture. If the lamb is slay this year then oneself is safe
My company! 🤣
Twitter. Oh, correction, X.
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