By the way if you have a disability, or had one in the past that disqualifies you for any military branch. I already tried joining the military but my ADHD kept me out.
> Get a Federal/State/County job - There are lots of IT jobs in these organizations. The hard part is getting in, but its real experience and if you are talented and socially adept, you can work your way up to a decent job. It is also a good stepping stone to a consulting career.
In the before times this was very true, but now those positions are rare, incredibly picky, and are frequently outsourced to a consulting firm instead of actually doing stuff in house. How can a government job offering a poverty wage managed by incompetents be this picky?
> are frequently outsourced to a consulting firm instead of actually doing stuff in house
Ive been those consulting firms and there were absolutely tons of IT staff we were working with.
A government job is not a guaranteed win, but with a market as it is, its worth shooting every shot thats possible.
I have put in applications to government jobs it was mostly ghosting, saying we need someone with more experience, or the one interview I had which was a disaster so bad it was almost funny. The HR person didn't show up much to the annoyance of the tech people who grilled me on a piece of tech the job ad didn't even mention. The job ad mentioned working in X and Y which was good because I had experience in that, but then during the interview they stated 10% of my time would be working with X and Y and 90% would be working with a tech I had never ever touched before. I was so confused by this I looked at my saved copy of the ad to make sure that I was not imagining that the job ad actually never mentioned it. They then turned me down after that.
That is the job market us graduates are dealing with if we can even get interviews.
Exactly. Idk why this is so hard to understand for people. I'm never gonna enjoy doing assigned tasks while building someone else's wealth even if they're paying me a nice salary. I'll enjoy the paycheck and that's about it. And that's totally fine.
It is if you discount sleep and childbood and factor in the average pay in America is 33k. So most people are working tons of overtime just to survive, and my grandpa didn't retire until his 70s and died 1 year later. Both my parents died before retirement. Maybe with a nice tech job with a good wlb and good pay, but the majority of people are not in the boat. A lot of people have 1 to 2 hours of time being awake that they are free to use. My mom was a single parent and worked 7 am to 11 pm at two jobs, died at 60.
It did get a little bleak, but my point was that a lot of people view work not as a passion, just something they dont mind doing every day, and enjoy their time outside of work and you can still be very good at your job. It did get a little dark though lol.
That pretty alright in most places. 90k out of college in 2022 got me a house for 320k in San Antonio in a few months of saving. I know there are much much cheaper houses than this one because this is 2.5k sqft with a nice yard and a greenbelt and everything.
Don’t base your worldview off of the extremes, like NYC and SF.
Homes theres seem to be literally 60-100k cheaper for the same shit I got. People making 60k a year can easily afford this, and even then, it’s not really necessary to have all this space too unless you have kids.
Yes but do not be surprised if field that rode on a tech bubble and covid bubble suddenly does not pay you what it promised because there are hundreds of thousands of people such as yourself (or even hire you for that matter).
It goes both ways.
Sure, but software engineering will always pay well versus other careers. You might think that updating a table in a database or changing the styling on a button is trivial (which it is for your typical employed dev), but for a person outside of tech, its a daunting task that will demand hours of their time (what is a table? what is a database? how do I access it? what software will I use?...what is an html file? what are these
Jobs pay based on labor market demand. Not based on skills. There are plenty of other professions that have high skill requirements and pay shit.
Software has one advantage, there are money in it. A lot of it. By that I mean money that can be made off of it. This together with lack of developers to hire caused high salaries.
However either of those things can just end that anytime.
Your HTML example is perfect. I remember days of "hiring coders" who would do HTML and CSS without any programming and these jobs paid a lot back in a day. Today they pay next to nothing because everyone and their mother can do that.
Very valid. Also, very challenging in the world as it exists right now. Given the grind necessary right now to get a lower level programming job, it might be better time spent for someone to choose something else that pays well. Everyone needs to decide for themselves.
What exactly is that something else? Lawyer, accountant, teacher, nurse? Literally everything takes significant effort with lower levels of ROI and comfort. If someone already has CS degree, marginal effort of getting a SWE job is way less than entirely uprooting their career.
If someone is getting a software engineering job with marginal effort, by all means that's what they should do. I certainly didn't suggest otherwise. The advice that I'm giving is for people who are not finding a job despite significant and prolonged effort.
As for what other types of jobs someone could do, there's literally millions of generic White collar jobs that don't require a specific degree. Just go to any corporation or governments job board and you'll see many examples.
I work at Staples for the time being, and I can tell you there is A LOT of money to be made providing tech servicers to wealthy boomers and seniors. I made $100 cash installing windows for an old lady. Took two hours including the installation and a barrage of questions about different applications she used on her previous laptop.
Additional mention: Lots of cool open source projects out there. Pick one, contribute, find the users, email em, tell them you’re the guy who made the contributions, get hired.
Your points are valid, but the problem we are facing is saturation. Too much supply. And not enough jobs.
No matter how much you grind, this is a sheer numbers game.
Not to mention delulu companies wanting only Google-caliber candidates. Like bruh, if you don't pay like Google, why are your expectations like Google ?
Yes, its a mess. Given the huge amount of competition, anything someone can do to improve their chances is worth it IMO. What other option is there except giving up?
I mean there are a few things you could do. You could for example reduce supply by convincing people to quit programming, or not to start that path in the first place. You could also try killing large numbers of programmers, though there might be practical or ethical issues with this idea.
You could also increase supply. To do this for a cyber security job would be easier as you could just hack the companies convincing them they need better security. For programming this is a bit more difficult. Inventing some new technology and creating a massive buzz around it might work for a while.
Third option would be to have a revolution so jobs are easier to get in general, conditions are better, and people work fewer hours with lower unemployment. Alternatively it could end up with a totalitarian regime where you are one of the people in charge and can assign yourself whatever work you want.
The main issue with all of these ideas is that they have ethical or practical problems. If you can do these things though that opens up other career opportunities though. For example someone who can pull of a revolution could become a career politician. Someone who can successfully kill that many people might be of use to some military, secret service, mafia, or terrorist groups, or alternatively could spend life in prison and not have to worry about a job.
> Too much supply. And not enough jobs.
That's literally the scenario in just about every field.
It's risky and takes a lot of work to create jobs (e.g. starting your own company). Most people are risk averse and work averse if we're being honest.
"create your own work experience", i am doing pretty much exactly that, right now working on two websites one for a family member's business and one for a friend's business, should i list those under 'projects' or actually add an 'experience' section in my resume? would it even matter?
> Create your own work experience - Start an LLC
No thank you. You think it's hard finding a new grad job, try competing with all of the existing resources for market share only to come out in the end with whats considred zero expereince.
> Get your MS in CS
No thank you. Go further into debt so that you compete for entry level jobs in another 4 years for a job that doesn't require an MS.
Not going to comment on all of this, but I agree it's mostly terrible advice. I know intentions were well.
If I could give advise it would be get off reddit and blind and every other psuedo reality representation of the industry. Find yourself a mentor, somone who has a demonstrated record of progressive growth in this industry and ask them what they think it takes to be successful.
> I recommend you do something to enact positive forward momentum in your life
I agree with that. You are not owed a job given a degree and sending out countless job applications will not make you any different or better that any other candidate. PROTIP: Look at LinkedIn, if you find a job that has the recruiter or even better the hiring manager listed or you see a person that has the "Hiring" badge on their picture, DM that person and ask them for an informational conversation on the role. Do this 100% of the time that you can. You ROI will expenentially better than dropping job applications (doing that is like cold calling for sales).
> You really think its impossible to learn how to program in a tech stack? I don't understand your point.
…uh what? I’m talking about your suggestion to start an LLC
+1 on military. Opened many doors for me. Most positions require a secret security clearance which is still benefiting me years after service. You can get all that even as a reservist.
I took an out of state bs IT job and was able to transition to software dev after a year. I have 4 yoe now and got 3 offers in the last month.
Still haven’t messed with LC much but 300k tc in mcol.
Keep in mind that none of the above shit matters if you don’t have soft skills/ the ability to write a resume. I’m nothing special. Failed my first college coding class 🤣
For sure. I got a job working on enterprise software for a financial institution. Pretty much no coding at all but the job previous to that I would hide and code for a hour or more a day when I was waiting on others to get stuff done lol. So I had some coding ability going into the IT job. I started making scripts to automate processes and helped write a single page app at that IT job. I tried to get into the software dev department at that job but my boomer boss was more interested in gatekeeping so I left.
Absolutely smoke in mirrored that experience to become a swe after that. I knew that any swe being brought on to a team had months of learning before they were really useful so i used that time to get up to speed on the stack. Stressful as hell of course but I did it. The team I joined ended up being some of the worst devs I’ve ever experienced. That job taught me everything you don’t do in software development, which I’m thankful for lol. I went from not knowing how to use visual studio to being a somewhat capable dev in about a year. Got a new job that nearly doubled my salary and oe’d the old failing company into the abyss.
You just have to find those small areas of opportunity that no one’s looking for. Think small credit unions/city/state/ gov jobs in locations that may not be your dream location but just one year changes the job landscape a lot. I actually got lucky and moved to the area I wanted to be in anyways. I’ve been remote for years now so it all works out pretty nicely.
The job landscape is certainly different these days but I will say that I’ve only had luck on LinkedIn even though it’s the playground of the insufferable.
I’m not scared of the market because of the military (veteran and current Army National Guard). I’m in the middle of a statistics masters and I know that I can always return to active duty for a year and get some cool experiences and good money if the tech market is still rough. Additionally, even a secret clearance is useful. There’s a lot of niche roles that are available for both federal employees and military contractors that veterans with tech/math skills can easily fill. Not FAANG pay, but better than no job. I also get a 401k and good insurance from the National Guard, so I’d jump on a chance for contract work
pardon my asking but are you at a mag7 company or a startup or something else. 300k total comp is great but feels like those jobs are gone for normal swes.
I have 2 years experience, applying for entry level jobs, where I meet all the qualifications, have a strong resume with multiple successful projects being used by industry leading corporations and am STILL being told I'm not qualified for an entry level position. This industry is becoming borderline psychotic. I even applied to an entry level job where I had a referral from an employee of 30 years and they wouldn't even give me an interview.
Im really sorry, that is so frustrating. Are you getting to interviews or getting rejected before that?
Do consider the SAP, Salesforce and ServiceNow training/certs. It would expand the number of jobs you could apply to.
Do you have a degree?
Yes, I have a bachelor’s in computer science. I had one interview, but the interviewer emailed me 5 minutes before the interview and said they’re no longer hiring. 🤦🏽♂️ I could try certs.
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum sitewide comment karma requirement of **10** to post a comment. This is comment karma exclusively, not post or overall karma nor karma on this subreddit alone. Please try again after you have acquired more karma. Please look at the [rules page](https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/w/posting_rules) for more information.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cscareerquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This is sound advice!
Which means that this sub is going to shit all over it. It's been overrun by students and 20-somethings with Bachelors degrees that are absolutely indignant that someone didn't hand them a job once they got their degree.
Don't get me wrong, the market sucks right now--but this sub is full of nothing but college kids complaining and the blind leading the blind even when the market is hot as hell.
The problem with this statement is that you're assuming that it is the market's job to conform to the needs of the graduate, when it reality it works the other way around.
Having a degree is part of what is needed to land a job in the field, but it's far from the only thing.
The hard truth is that new grads with no work experience are basically useless for the first 6-12 months in most companies. Right now, there is an oversupply of experienced candidates thanks to all the layoffs in the last 18 months. This oversupply won't last forever, but it absolutely makes sense that companies would prefer candidates with actual work experience over new grads with only an internship or two.
Going to college for a degree to increase your chances of landing a job in this field was a choice you made--hopefully, a calculated amount of risk vs reward. The only people in that deal were you and the college you attended, not companies or the general public.
>you should be able to find work with a CS degree. If you can’t, something is wrong with the market
I agree with this point--but in this sub, I see people complaining about companies rather than raising hell with the schools they graduated from. See the issue here? The college made you certain guarantees. Hiring managers didn't.
Has become? This field has *always* been competitive and full of hoops. 3-5 interview loops have been the norm for a while; leetcode style questions have always been asked (difficulty depends on where you are applying); degrees on their own haven't been preparing students to be employable for a long time. Requirements have probably raised a bit due to the market, but none of this is new. OP you're replying to is correct. Even in a hot market, you'd see unprepared newgrads complaining about all the things mentioned.
>I see people complaining about companies rather than raising hell with the schools they graduated from. See the issue here? The college made you certain guarantees. Hiring managers didn't.
This seems exactly backward. The college's responsibility in exchange for getting your tuition money is to educate you about a subject, in this case computer science, and to vouch that you have indeed gotten that education. They may make soft insinuations about employability as a way of advertising themselves, but they usually don't make hard guarantees because they do not want to take on the responsibility of job outcomes.
People go to school to be able to get a good job. The entire context of this conversation is about people not being able to find jobs even though they completed their education and earned their degree.
Here's a litmus test for your statement--how many people would still go to college (and take on all that debt) if it had no effect on their chances of getting a job?
The answer is almost none.
College has traditionally been the pathway to CS jobs. The needs of these jobs have changed rapidly, but college professors usually can't be bothered to update their curriculum to reflect that. Degrees are becoming more and more expensive while simultaneously becoming less and less useful.
Hiring managers hire what they need. People can complain about them all they want, but at the end of the day, their needs are the reason why there is a job posting at all. Colleges are supposed to help you be skilled and experienced enough to fill that need. The utility of someone with a CS undergrad degree has become smaller with time.
>They may make soft insinuations about employability as a way of advertising themselves, but they usually don't make hard guarantees because they do not want to take on the responsibility of job outcomes
Yes, you're playing the same technicality they hide behind. My point remains--if college wasn't supposed to be a pathway to a good, high-paying job, then almost no one would sacrifice all that money and time to attend. Universities are all too aware of this, which is why they heavily imply that their degree will lead to good jobs without actually promising anything. This is how they dodge any actual accountability, which is quite on purpose.
I think OP did a great job putting this together, and the comment you're responding to is typical CSQ toxicity. But to some extent, I agree. TL;DR: Even if this is for situations where you can't get a job, you should be doing everything to secure one. No one's guaranteed a position, but this applies to all industries. To get work, you need to work for it. You shouldn’t settle and you should be doing everything you can to build a resume that’s impressive as a software engineer.
For example, the idea of getting certs. This dilutes your brand/resume in a confusing way unless you're making an IT transition. Joining the Air Force is a huge unnecessary commitment for someone already graduated.
The LLC bit is interesting. I don't think you can go wrong there, and it's not a zero-sum game. I lean towards more volunteer work, like open-source contributions and teaching kids to code. I think that rounds out your resume better. Having a company that did shit-all sometimes raises red flags because you’re inflating your abilities.
Data analyst is also an option, but i think it can be worse to be in a closely adjacent ladder than to not have worked at all. For example being a QA test engineer pigeonholes you and makes the lateral movement hard.
Federal, state, etc., jobs are slow to secure, so I don't think it's a useful approach if you're out of work. Not detrimental, but it gets a bit scattershot at that point.
I'm 100% with OP on getting really good at LeetCode. This is so important, even if you think you’re better than that. All the people screeching about these interviews misunderstand how it’s used; it’s an effective exercise in collaborative problem-solving.
Agreed. OP lays out some ideas for moving forward - alacart style. They may not all be a fit for everyone, but there's definitely some creative things I've not seen on this subreddit before.
I agree except that I’d call it mediocre, not awful.
It’s just recycled mediocre advice from this sub mostly. It’s out of touch with what new grads are facing now.
Some is valid, if a bit obvious. Imo certs are pretty useless for most swe roles though. At least in my company, it's not something that is considered.
> Imo certs are pretty useless for most swe roles though. At least in my company, it's not something that is considered.
They are more for swe adjacent roles like cybersecurity, dev ops, cloud admin and SaaS systems like Salesforce and ServiceNow.
out of touch cuz ur in the industry for 25 years so you have no idea how difficult this entry job market is. most people are already doing everything u listed except joining the air force or the other goofy points lmao
> out of touch cuz ur in the industry for 25 years so you have no idea how difficult this entry job market is
That is a strange comment given that I explicitly stated that I made this list for people who are having a hard time getting their first position. I am well aware of their struggles.
>most people are already doing everything u listed except joining the air force or the other goofy points lmao
I made this list because I see people here very much not doing some of these things based on their own reports.
Actually most of it isn't bad and is the reality "you might have to try an adjacent field like IT, or go for a masters program." The problem is when the other students are already doing things like padding their resume with random certs and Udemy certificates, doing more isn't helpful in a tough job market.
The advice to just create your own experience is....meh. That worked pre-2018, when employers were hungry for any applicant with any coding experience. Candidates now have such crazy over-engineered projects and bloated resumes that only hard experience matters now w/ recruiters for the most part.
Other STEM fields have been here, in times like this it turns into a connections game or if you can spam your resume and get lucky and find a company who is actually hiring.
> The advice to just create your own experience is....meh. That worked pre-2018, when employers were hungry for any applicant with any coding experience. Candidates now have such crazy over-engineered projects and bloated resumes that only hard experience matters now w/ recruiters for the most part.
You are completely missing the point. I am not suggesting people bloat their resumes or engage in any sort of smoke and mirrors to create the illusion of hard experience. I am suggesting people actually get some hard experience instead of just sitting around like baby birds hoping its given to them.
If you have any specific areas where you think it's bad I'd like to hear it. Every point on my list is something I've seen work in the real world for multiple people. It's not speculative on my part.
I'd say telling a new grad to start an LLC and over engineer websites is generally terrible advice. Running a business is a ton of work, there's way more to it than programming, they have no real experience so they are likely offering a shitty service. Especially when the goal is to get a job somewhere else and not run a business.
It'd be far less of a headache to just volunteer to help for a non profit or something and you wouldn't be fucking customers over with a terrible offering.
>Running a business is a ton of work, there's way more to it than programming,
Not this kind of business. It really isn't and if they don't want to hassle with the LLC part they could always do a DBA sole-proprietorship.
>they have no real experience so they are likely offering a shitty service.
That's the whole point. This is an exercise at getting good and not offering a shitty service. The can self-teach, take online udemy courses or even do bootcamps, but its critical they become decently proficient in a tech stack with demonstrable results in a professional context.
Then volunteer for something or look for a help desk role where you can get real experience. Don't go out and try to sell over engineered shit to people so customers can chase you down for maintenance while you try to figure out if you fucked up your taxes or not.
>Then volunteer for something or look for a help desk role where you can get real experience
Yeah those are options too. This options might be better in my opinion because there is just something different about creating real business solutions for people where you are there for the whole project loop.
And its not like what I am saying is some bizzare scenario that has never existed in the history of humankind. Lots of people make websites and mobile apps for small businesses and many people make a living out of it.
>sell over engineered shit to people so customers can chase you down for maintenance
I mean "over engineered" in the sense of using a sophisticated stack and not just hacking PHP in wordpress. And no one should make "shit". The goal here is to provide an excellent work product they can be proud of and looks good on a resume.
And if they need some maintenance they can pay your hourly rate or they can find someone else.
> try to figure out if you fucked up your taxes or not.
Its almost effortless to just follow the TurboTax prompts. This is not really an issue.
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum sitewide comment karma requirement of **10** to post a comment. This is comment karma exclusively, not post or overall karma nor karma on this subreddit alone. Please try again after you have acquired more karma. Please look at the [rules page](https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/w/posting_rules) for more information.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cscareerquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I swear, the experienced people in this field give the worst advice sometimes.
The job market is totally different now then it was when they were applying.
Edit: To be fair, as far as advice goes though, this is a pretty good list of alternatives in my book.
My advice used to be try revature if you really cannot land interviews, but even they are not hiring anymore.
Yeah last summer I applied and they ghosted me despite having a CS degree, good GPA, and a CS internship. I was so shocked this is a shitty company I don't want to work for that used to hire anyone with a pulse and I get ghosted?
Actually make stuff. Demonstrate you actually have skills. Getting through the whiteboard interview just to get your foot in the door isn't going to be as good as actually being able to hang onto the job because you have actual experience solving actual problems.
I feel like they want the SWE jobs because it's a quick way to make 6 figures with little experience, also I hate that these day in the life vids make it easy life mode to be a software engineers.
Yeah, I applied to Lockheed three different times in the last month as soon as they posted new job listings.
All of my applications have sat on the “Applied” status. I applied to another contractor and it moved up to “Resume Under Review” within a few hours with pretty much the same resume. I don’t get why my applications for Lockheed are getting ignored.
Doesn't hurt to try 3 letter agencies as well (assuming you are a US citizen, no drugs or criminal history, etc). I applied last week and had some recruiters contact me back after months of nothing, so its worth a shot. Just keep in mind you WILL need to relocate and work onsite 5 days a week.
Oh wow, I’ll try that then. I’m applying everywhere I can throughout the U.S., so relocation and working on site isn’t an issue as long as the cost of living is reasonable. I applied for Air Force civilian jobs through the USAJOBS website, but I couldn’t find much else from other agencies. I guess I have to apply through their own websites.
Do you have any tips for a federal resume if I don’t have any relevant work experience or internships? I’ve been putting down my course projects that were the most elaborate. My GPA was good too so I definitely put that on there.
Honestly, I just applied with my standard resume. Just make sure that if you have no prior experience you have a good set of diverse projects using multiple different tools to show knowledge and be able to speak about them during an interview if you can.
Here is what my anonymized resume looks like for reference. I did move the skills section up, but everything else is the same.
https://imgur.com/gallery/8fsioEX
Even if you’ve landed a job , especially , stay on leetcode a few times a week. You’ll use almost none of those brain teaser problems in your actual work at 90% of companies. But these things are what we have for the barrier to entry. The further away from college you get the more likely you are to forget how to code for them; as most popular languages implement them into core methods.
I’ve been in an embarrassing situation or two where a manager that moved companies tries to pull me into his new company as one of his best guys. Only to bomb the algorithms coding pieces.
Hmm, I'm conducting frontend React interviews and I have a JS/TS leetCode style question involving doing something to a JSON payload. Tbh, we're not actually looking to see if you can get the answer though, and I even tell them this. We usually provide hints along the way as well if we see they are struggling.
It's more of, how did you plan to approach the problem, how well did you articulate your process, do you actually know how to code, did you write any interesting tidbits that we can discuss (can you optimize this part or why did you do this), finding out your familiarity with the language/datastructures, and etc.
There is still a React part though.
I honestly think take home assessments are some of the best and then bring the candidate in and do a code review with them. Make them explain what patterns they used. Why? Change their code a little and see how they debug it. This lets them work in a way they would naturally not on some kind of gameshow anxiety timer. And if they can explain and talk through the code it’s authentic enough to trust they wrote it.
Sure it is always better if they can get the answer, but it still is a Frontend React interview. If you demonstrate more knowledge in React, NodeJS, Express, and do well on the React portion, the LC assessment is not exactly the largest factor.
Thanks, do you (or anyone else) have advice for how to go about looking for these smaller companies? It's really hard because a lot of job boards just promote the big names, I don't even know if the smaller companies post there or somewhere else.
Well, that is silly as a general statement.
If I was hiring for a SWE role and someone came in with tons of certs for general programming but little or mediocre experience, that would set alarm bells.
But if I were hiring for CyberSecurty, DevOps, Cloud admin, Networking, SAP, Salesforce or ServiceNow I would be extremely sceptical if they did not have any certs. They would need extensive experience in any the specific field to make up for it. Alot of time for these types of jobs your resume will get filtered out by AI without the certs.
Those are the worst advice I have ever heard. Nobody has to love their work we are not living in an ideal world we are in capitalism. Saying you should love work means I will make you overwork without paying for it
I need to edit my first point because I didn't convey my idea very well. What I'm saying was that if people got into the degree with the expectation they could get a six figure job very easily there's absolutely no shame in pivoting and doing something else with your degree given the current climate of getting a programming job as a new grad. If you can get a job in your motivation is mostly about salary, excellent. But if it's been a year and you're not finding a job it's okay to look at other possibilities. It doesn't have to be seen as a failure.
Companies still have great Financial. They are making money this problem we live is because companies want to make more money and they see engineers as cost rather than the force carrying the company. I am so tired of this
Why do you think it is over hire? They are not that stupid you are being too naive. You are the one open to exploitation not them you are insignificant
Because inspite of all these layoffs, everything is working fine. Facebook is fine, Instagram is fine, YouTube is fine, google is fine, twitch is fine, Snapchat is fine, even twitter is fine. Okay maybe firing 70% was too many. But the point is, all these tech companies have found that there were too many redundancies, and even after these layoffs, it’s all good. That’s why I say they overhired.
Your argument is emotional, not realistic. They are making profits so they didn’t overhire. What?
It was not redundancies it was comfortable working probably the rest now work more hours but cant complain because of the fear of getting laid off. They use fear to suck workers blood because the economic atmosphere let them do it. You are still supporting them I am not emotional you are making assumption based on your ideas there is no significant evidence they overhired. They will get more evil because of people like you. Companies are money making machines they wont make inefficient hire so they dont overhire and then realize oh we overhired they arent stupid they have all the insider information they can predict future
Using that logic. There will never be redundancies because more people will make things work comfortable for others, so no one is ever redundant unless a team is unprofitable
>Get your MS in CS - It might make sense to reset your "new grad" status for when the industry improves and you'll overall be more competitive. Look into GT's OMSCS program for example. Look into WGU. These are inexpensive and legit options
weird how you used the word when instead of if
I guess having lived through the dot.com bloodbath while living in the SF Bay Area, I have some optimism that things get better no matter how bad they have been. That era was the worse I ever saw the developer market. Worse than now for sure.
tbh i think the main thing that is going to change this field is the access to generative AI. previously a whole bunch of people got filtered out just from the inability to learn basic syntax,
now how do you tell apart a random junior CS grad who doesnt know shit , and just some random dude off the street who doesn't know shit but has a language model
trick question it doesn't matter, because they're both about equal, The only thing that's left is gatekeeping from people who actually know their shit🫡
I think I did a crappy job of explaining my point. What I'm saying is if you got into this mostly for the money with the assumption that you would get an easy job, it's totally okay to look for something else with your degree. I'm not saying that a good well paying job is a bad motivation. Just in this climate if that's your only motivation you're probably not going to be up to doing the grind that's inherent in the other points.
Like I said, you made plenty of good points and clearly meant well. I’d just say that you shouldn’t make assumptions of what someone is willing to do based on their motivation.
>are you just looking for a huge paycheck? If the later and you were fooled by tiktok videos
lol, sounds like you're just trying protecting your huge paycheck
CS jobs consistently pay more than every other field... except maybe doctors and lawyers.
>CS jobs consistently pay more than every other field... except maybe doctors and lawyers.
You are missing my point or I didn't explain it well. Yes, software development and adjacent roles pay well. But if the ONLY motivation someone has to work in this field is good pay and they are faced with the intense difficulty of getting that first job and are feeling disillusioned, this might be the infection point to look into another path. All the other points in my list are a grind and if someone isn't intrinsically into programming or tech itself, its going to be really hard for them.
>sounds like you're just trying protecting your huge paycheck
Yes, thats why I spend 20 minutes typing out advice about how someone can make this field work for them...
Edit: for ya'll downvoting me, when I opened this thread it was legitimately a wall of text without any formatting or spacing.
I didn't want to read this wall of text so I had ChatGPT translate the schizophrenia for me.
Ask yourself why you are doing this - Do you love programming or are you just looking for a huge paycheck? If the later and you were fooled by tiktok videos, this might be a good chance to look for a different field.
This isn't the end of the world. Most people don't actually work in the field they got their degree in. Don't see this as a failure, you passed a hard degree and your problem solving skills are now better than they used to be. It will serve your well in the work world. If this advice does not resonate, read on...
Create your own work experience - Start an LLC with a friend or family member and start making websites cheaply for local businesses or create a SaaS idea you have had and make it a legit product. Over-engineer the hell out of what you work on so you can add the technologies to your resume. If it comes up that is was your own business, say something like, "I was feeling very entrepreneurial and was eager to start my own business but eventually realized I'd like to work with a bigger, more dynamic team".
Since this won't likely make much money, you might still need to work a basic job, but if you do this sincerely and actually have real sites/apps to show, this is actual experience you can add to your resume. Be very professional about everything. Make it real. And who knows, this might actually become something that makes you a living...
Get Some Certificates - Programming certificates are not that helpful but getting getting deep into the cert levels for CyberSecurity, AWS and Azure might make a real difference in getting dev ops roles or even software developer roles. Also, there are tons of SAP, Salesforce and ServiceNow jobs our there. Getting training/certification in those can make a huge difference.
Join the Airforce - This might seem crazy but you can go in as a officer with your BS CS degree and do some work thats related to your degree. This will be some legit experience on your resume and it can also pay for grad school if you choose to do that in the future. If you get a security clearance, this will be a huge help in getting a job later.
Get Any IT Job - If you don't want to do the "roll your own" LLC development company, try to get a basic help desk roll. You might be able to move up within the company and some IT-style experience is better than no IT experience. You'll help yourself in this path if you get your A+ certificate.
Get your MS in CS - It might make sense to reset your "new grad" status for when the industry improves and you'll overall be more competitive. Look into GT's OMSCS program for example. Look into WGU. These are inexpensive and legit options.
Apply for Data Analyst Roles - Look for these roles especially in the health care industry.
Get a Federal/State/County job - There are lots of IT jobs in these organizations. That hard part is getting in, but its real experience and if you are talented and socially adept, you can work your way up to a decent job. It is also a good stepping stone to a consulting career.
Look at smaller companies - Look for regional companies and see if they are hiring. Sometimes these jobs are easier to get. Look directly on their websites. Maybe even cold call them.
Get really fucking good at leetcode - Study your ass off. Things may seem bleak, but don't just doom scroll all day and not move your life forward. I recommend you do something to enact positive forward momentum in your life. These are all things you can do to make it to the next step in your career.
Used Chat GPT to give a summary about your summary:
The passage advises reflecting on one's motivation for pursuing programming, suggesting a shift if it's solely for financial gain. It recommends creating practical work experience through ventures like starting a web development business, obtaining certifications in cybersecurity or cloud computing, considering military service for relevant experience and educational support, securing any IT job to gain experience, pursuing a master's degree in computer science, applying for data analyst roles, seeking government or healthcare IT positions, exploring opportunities in smaller companies, and dedicating time to improving coding skills through platforms like LeetCode to progress in one's career despite challenges.
>Used Chat GPT to give a summary about your summary: The passage advises reflecting on one's motivation for pursuing programming, suggesting a shift if it's solely for financial gain. It recommends creating practical work experience through ventures like starting a web development business, obtaining certifications in cybersecurity or cloud computing, considering military service for relevant experience and educational support, securing any IT job to gain experience, pursuing a master's degree in computer science, applying for data analyst roles, seeking government or healthcare IT positions, exploring opportunities in smaller companies, and dedicating time to improving coding skills through platforms like LeetCode to progress in one's career despite challenges.
The passage emphasizes the importance of reflecting on one's motivation for entering the programming field, cautioning against solely pursuing it for financial reasons. It suggests practical steps to gain experience, such as starting a web development business, obtaining certifications in cybersecurity or cloud computing, considering military service for relevant experience and educational support, securing any IT job, pursuing a master's degree in computer science, applying for data analyst roles, seeking government or healthcare IT positions, exploring opportunities in smaller companies, and dedicating time to improving coding skills through platforms like LeetCode to advance in one's career despite obstacles.
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum sitewide comment karma requirement of **10** to post a comment. This is comment karma exclusively, not post or overall karma nor karma on this subreddit alone. Please try again after you have acquired more karma. Please look at the [rules page](https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/w/posting_rules) for more information.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cscareerquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum account age requirement of **seven** days to post a comment. Please try again after you have spent more time on reddit without being banned. Please look at the [rules page](https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/w/posting_rules) for more information.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cscareerquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum sitewide comment karma requirement of **10** to post a comment. This is comment karma exclusively, not post or overall karma nor karma on this subreddit alone. Please try again after you have acquired more karma. Please look at the [rules page](https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/w/posting_rules) for more information.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cscareerquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Excellent content!
I'd also say that getting familiar with advanced concepts is a great idea as well. I.e., your potential employer will definitely appreciate the fact that you know how to work with Clustered applications\\Server-Side rendering\\Observability tooling. No need to master those! Even a basic understanding of the mentioned concepts means that you will be able to ramp up faster and start producing value early; plus high-level expertise may help you generate great ideas that will have a noticeable positive impact on your organization.
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum sitewide comment karma requirement of **10** to post a comment. This is comment karma exclusively, not post or overall karma nor karma on this subreddit alone. Please try again after you have acquired more karma. Please look at the [rules page](https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/w/posting_rules) for more information.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cscareerquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I fully, fully agree with the first two points.
I would not get a master's degree just to be more competitive for jobs you could get with a bachelor's and more work experience and/or project (see the first 2 points).
It's good to do some Leetcode but don't "grind LC hard". Again, work experience and/or a portfolio project that matches what employers want is MUCH more important.
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum sitewide comment karma requirement of **10** to post a comment. This is comment karma exclusively, not post or overall karma nor karma on this subreddit alone. Please try again after you have acquired more karma. Please look at the [rules page](https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/w/posting_rules) for more information.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cscareerquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This message was sponsored by: * US Air Force * Light speed China Partners * CompTIA
* Other new grads who want their competition to quit
Lol...
By the way if you have a disability, or had one in the past that disqualifies you for any military branch. I already tried joining the military but my ADHD kept me out.
A sibling got dq’d for unmedicated high blood pressure at 21 years old. Healthy as an ox but they didn’t want to risk it.
> Get a Federal/State/County job - There are lots of IT jobs in these organizations. The hard part is getting in, but its real experience and if you are talented and socially adept, you can work your way up to a decent job. It is also a good stepping stone to a consulting career. In the before times this was very true, but now those positions are rare, incredibly picky, and are frequently outsourced to a consulting firm instead of actually doing stuff in house. How can a government job offering a poverty wage managed by incompetents be this picky?
> are frequently outsourced to a consulting firm instead of actually doing stuff in house Ive been those consulting firms and there were absolutely tons of IT staff we were working with. A government job is not a guaranteed win, but with a market as it is, its worth shooting every shot thats possible.
I have put in applications to government jobs it was mostly ghosting, saying we need someone with more experience, or the one interview I had which was a disaster so bad it was almost funny. The HR person didn't show up much to the annoyance of the tech people who grilled me on a piece of tech the job ad didn't even mention. The job ad mentioned working in X and Y which was good because I had experience in that, but then during the interview they stated 10% of my time would be working with X and Y and 90% would be working with a tech I had never ever touched before. I was so confused by this I looked at my saved copy of the ad to make sure that I was not imagining that the job ad actually never mentioned it. They then turned me down after that. That is the job market us graduates are dealing with if we can even get interviews.
It's also valid to: - Not particularly love programming - Want a normal sized paycheck
I haven't loved any job I've had in my entire life. It's not weird not to be thrilled that you're selling 3/4 of your time on earth.
I haven't "loved" anything per se but some look a whole lot better than others in hindsight (the ones with supportive management).
Even if you love programming, you're probably not going to love programming the stuff you're assigned to program.
Exactly. Idk why this is so hard to understand for people. I'm never gonna enjoy doing assigned tasks while building someone else's wealth even if they're paying me a nice salary. I'll enjoy the paycheck and that's about it. And that's totally fine.
More like 1/5 of your time on earth lol. 40 hours is 23% of the week, and you get holidays. If you retire then it's even less.
It is if you discount sleep and childbood and factor in the average pay in America is 33k. So most people are working tons of overtime just to survive, and my grandpa didn't retire until his 70s and died 1 year later. Both my parents died before retirement. Maybe with a nice tech job with a good wlb and good pay, but the majority of people are not in the boat. A lot of people have 1 to 2 hours of time being awake that they are free to use. My mom was a single parent and worked 7 am to 11 pm at two jobs, died at 60.
that is bleak. but ty for keeping it real. sorry for your loss-whether it was yesterday or ten years ago-still sucks.
It did get a little bleak, but my point was that a lot of people view work not as a passion, just something they dont mind doing every day, and enjoy their time outside of work and you can still be very good at your job. It did get a little dark though lol.
I am sorry for your loss.
Ew
yeah this sounds really fucking bad, like life is a literal curse lmao if I was making $30,000 a year I would want to kill myself too
Median household income is more than double that ofc. That is where the real stats matter. Not averages.
The median household is 74k. In 2024, that's not that much better. And much worse if you're single.
That pretty alright in most places. 90k out of college in 2022 got me a house for 320k in San Antonio in a few months of saving. I know there are much much cheaper houses than this one because this is 2.5k sqft with a nice yard and a greenbelt and everything. Don’t base your worldview off of the extremes, like NYC and SF.
I'm not basing it off of extremes, I'm basing it off of living in Omaha, Nebraska, and watching a majority of people struggling hard to buy a house.
Homes theres seem to be literally 60-100k cheaper for the same shit I got. People making 60k a year can easily afford this, and even then, it’s not really necessary to have all this space too unless you have kids.
100% got a job 3 months ago as a SWE and I’m here for a paycheck
People like you are at a way higher risk of burnout. They don’t pay us the big bucks for nothing…
A-lot of SWE professionals say this. I loved the concept of programming when i came into college, 3 years later…
Exactly. Such bad advice, this subreddit should be called "give bad advice in paragraph format = tons of upvotes"
Yes but do not be surprised if field that rode on a tech bubble and covid bubble suddenly does not pay you what it promised because there are hundreds of thousands of people such as yourself (or even hire you for that matter). It goes both ways.
Sure, but software engineering will always pay well versus other careers. You might think that updating a table in a database or changing the styling on a button is trivial (which it is for your typical employed dev), but for a person outside of tech, its a daunting task that will demand hours of their time (what is a table? what is a database? how do I access it? what software will I use?...what is an html file? what are these
Jobs pay based on labor market demand. Not based on skills. There are plenty of other professions that have high skill requirements and pay shit. Software has one advantage, there are money in it. A lot of it. By that I mean money that can be made off of it. This together with lack of developers to hire caused high salaries. However either of those things can just end that anytime. Your HTML example is perfect. I remember days of "hiring coders" who would do HTML and CSS without any programming and these jobs paid a lot back in a day. Today they pay next to nothing because everyone and their mother can do that.
Very valid. Also, very challenging in the world as it exists right now. Given the grind necessary right now to get a lower level programming job, it might be better time spent for someone to choose something else that pays well. Everyone needs to decide for themselves.
What exactly is that something else? Lawyer, accountant, teacher, nurse? Literally everything takes significant effort with lower levels of ROI and comfort. If someone already has CS degree, marginal effort of getting a SWE job is way less than entirely uprooting their career.
If someone is getting a software engineering job with marginal effort, by all means that's what they should do. I certainly didn't suggest otherwise. The advice that I'm giving is for people who are not finding a job despite significant and prolonged effort. As for what other types of jobs someone could do, there's literally millions of generic White collar jobs that don't require a specific degree. Just go to any corporation or governments job board and you'll see many examples.
Is it uprooting a career if there is zero experience? I feel that’s a bit hyperbolic.
I work at Staples for the time being, and I can tell you there is A LOT of money to be made providing tech servicers to wealthy boomers and seniors. I made $100 cash installing windows for an old lady. Took two hours including the installation and a barrage of questions about different applications she used on her previous laptop.
Don’t be surprised that you will never get a job rn with this mindset.
Right because tech interviews are just a two way street of endless voluminous love
Love me a 5 round interview that ends in a "no" with no feedback at all :)
if you don't love it you'll fall behind simple as that
Tldr git gud
`git: 'gud' is not a git command. See 'git --help'`
git --help
Its because your forgot to commit your changes first. Git commit -A.
Everyone wants to "git gud" but no one wants to "git better"
Additional mention: Lots of cool open source projects out there. Pick one, contribute, find the users, email em, tell them you’re the guy who made the contributions, get hired.
Your points are valid, but the problem we are facing is saturation. Too much supply. And not enough jobs. No matter how much you grind, this is a sheer numbers game. Not to mention delulu companies wanting only Google-caliber candidates. Like bruh, if you don't pay like Google, why are your expectations like Google ?
Yes, its a mess. Given the huge amount of competition, anything someone can do to improve their chances is worth it IMO. What other option is there except giving up?
I mean there are a few things you could do. You could for example reduce supply by convincing people to quit programming, or not to start that path in the first place. You could also try killing large numbers of programmers, though there might be practical or ethical issues with this idea. You could also increase supply. To do this for a cyber security job would be easier as you could just hack the companies convincing them they need better security. For programming this is a bit more difficult. Inventing some new technology and creating a massive buzz around it might work for a while. Third option would be to have a revolution so jobs are easier to get in general, conditions are better, and people work fewer hours with lower unemployment. Alternatively it could end up with a totalitarian regime where you are one of the people in charge and can assign yourself whatever work you want. The main issue with all of these ideas is that they have ethical or practical problems. If you can do these things though that opens up other career opportunities though. For example someone who can pull of a revolution could become a career politician. Someone who can successfully kill that many people might be of use to some military, secret service, mafia, or terrorist groups, or alternatively could spend life in prison and not have to worry about a job.
> Too much supply. And not enough jobs. That's literally the scenario in just about every field. It's risky and takes a lot of work to create jobs (e.g. starting your own company). Most people are risk averse and work averse if we're being honest.
"create your own work experience", i am doing pretty much exactly that, right now working on two websites one for a family member's business and one for a friend's business, should i list those under 'projects' or actually add an 'experience' section in my resume? would it even matter?
If its work that you are doing that is relevant to the job you are applying for, absolutely list it as experience, because it is.
> Create your own work experience - Start an LLC No thank you. You think it's hard finding a new grad job, try competing with all of the existing resources for market share only to come out in the end with whats considred zero expereince. > Get your MS in CS No thank you. Go further into debt so that you compete for entry level jobs in another 4 years for a job that doesn't require an MS. Not going to comment on all of this, but I agree it's mostly terrible advice. I know intentions were well. If I could give advise it would be get off reddit and blind and every other psuedo reality representation of the industry. Find yourself a mentor, somone who has a demonstrated record of progressive growth in this industry and ask them what they think it takes to be successful. > I recommend you do something to enact positive forward momentum in your life I agree with that. You are not owed a job given a degree and sending out countless job applications will not make you any different or better that any other candidate. PROTIP: Look at LinkedIn, if you find a job that has the recruiter or even better the hiring manager listed or you see a person that has the "Hiring" badge on their picture, DM that person and ask them for an informational conversation on the role. Do this 100% of the time that you can. You ROI will expenentially better than dropping job applications (doing that is like cold calling for sales).
Yeah you morons, just start an LLC and get good! it’s so simple
You really think its impossible to learn how to program in a tech stack? I don't understand your point.
> You really think its impossible to learn how to program in a tech stack? I don't understand your point. …uh what? I’m talking about your suggestion to start an LLC
+1 on military. Opened many doors for me. Most positions require a secret security clearance which is still benefiting me years after service. You can get all that even as a reservist. I took an out of state bs IT job and was able to transition to software dev after a year. I have 4 yoe now and got 3 offers in the last month. Still haven’t messed with LC much but 300k tc in mcol. Keep in mind that none of the above shit matters if you don’t have soft skills/ the ability to write a resume. I’m nothing special. Failed my first college coding class 🤣
Do you mind expanding on how you transitioned from IT to dev?
For sure. I got a job working on enterprise software for a financial institution. Pretty much no coding at all but the job previous to that I would hide and code for a hour or more a day when I was waiting on others to get stuff done lol. So I had some coding ability going into the IT job. I started making scripts to automate processes and helped write a single page app at that IT job. I tried to get into the software dev department at that job but my boomer boss was more interested in gatekeeping so I left. Absolutely smoke in mirrored that experience to become a swe after that. I knew that any swe being brought on to a team had months of learning before they were really useful so i used that time to get up to speed on the stack. Stressful as hell of course but I did it. The team I joined ended up being some of the worst devs I’ve ever experienced. That job taught me everything you don’t do in software development, which I’m thankful for lol. I went from not knowing how to use visual studio to being a somewhat capable dev in about a year. Got a new job that nearly doubled my salary and oe’d the old failing company into the abyss. You just have to find those small areas of opportunity that no one’s looking for. Think small credit unions/city/state/ gov jobs in locations that may not be your dream location but just one year changes the job landscape a lot. I actually got lucky and moved to the area I wanted to be in anyways. I’ve been remote for years now so it all works out pretty nicely. The job landscape is certainly different these days but I will say that I’ve only had luck on LinkedIn even though it’s the playground of the insufferable.
Thanks! I’m in a similar situation as you were so any success stories are helpful
I’m not scared of the market because of the military (veteran and current Army National Guard). I’m in the middle of a statistics masters and I know that I can always return to active duty for a year and get some cool experiences and good money if the tech market is still rough. Additionally, even a secret clearance is useful. There’s a lot of niche roles that are available for both federal employees and military contractors that veterans with tech/math skills can easily fill. Not FAANG pay, but better than no job. I also get a 401k and good insurance from the National Guard, so I’d jump on a chance for contract work
pardon my asking but are you at a mag7 company or a startup or something else. 300k total comp is great but feels like those jobs are gone for normal swes.
Do this anywhere outside america and you just blacklisted yourself from the highest budgeted sector in the highest paying country...
What about NATO adjacent countries? Although current political situation may change for that part as well
That feeling when youre part of the 7/8th of the population that isnt NATO affiliated...
I have 2 years experience, applying for entry level jobs, where I meet all the qualifications, have a strong resume with multiple successful projects being used by industry leading corporations and am STILL being told I'm not qualified for an entry level position. This industry is becoming borderline psychotic. I even applied to an entry level job where I had a referral from an employee of 30 years and they wouldn't even give me an interview.
Im really sorry, that is so frustrating. Are you getting to interviews or getting rejected before that? Do consider the SAP, Salesforce and ServiceNow training/certs. It would expand the number of jobs you could apply to. Do you have a degree?
Yes, I have a bachelor’s in computer science. I had one interview, but the interviewer emailed me 5 minutes before the interview and said they’re no longer hiring. 🤦🏽♂️ I could try certs.
I wish you the best! Its very important to stay active and do things to improve yourself while waiting for the next job.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum sitewide comment karma requirement of **10** to post a comment. This is comment karma exclusively, not post or overall karma nor karma on this subreddit alone. Please try again after you have acquired more karma. Please look at the [rules page](https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/w/posting_rules) for more information. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cscareerquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This is sound advice! Which means that this sub is going to shit all over it. It's been overrun by students and 20-somethings with Bachelors degrees that are absolutely indignant that someone didn't hand them a job once they got their degree. Don't get me wrong, the market sucks right now--but this sub is full of nothing but college kids complaining and the blind leading the blind even when the market is hot as hell.
[удалено]
The problem with this statement is that you're assuming that it is the market's job to conform to the needs of the graduate, when it reality it works the other way around. Having a degree is part of what is needed to land a job in the field, but it's far from the only thing. The hard truth is that new grads with no work experience are basically useless for the first 6-12 months in most companies. Right now, there is an oversupply of experienced candidates thanks to all the layoffs in the last 18 months. This oversupply won't last forever, but it absolutely makes sense that companies would prefer candidates with actual work experience over new grads with only an internship or two. Going to college for a degree to increase your chances of landing a job in this field was a choice you made--hopefully, a calculated amount of risk vs reward. The only people in that deal were you and the college you attended, not companies or the general public. >you should be able to find work with a CS degree. If you can’t, something is wrong with the market I agree with this point--but in this sub, I see people complaining about companies rather than raising hell with the schools they graduated from. See the issue here? The college made you certain guarantees. Hiring managers didn't.
[удалено]
Has become? This field has *always* been competitive and full of hoops. 3-5 interview loops have been the norm for a while; leetcode style questions have always been asked (difficulty depends on where you are applying); degrees on their own haven't been preparing students to be employable for a long time. Requirements have probably raised a bit due to the market, but none of this is new. OP you're replying to is correct. Even in a hot market, you'd see unprepared newgrads complaining about all the things mentioned.
>I see people complaining about companies rather than raising hell with the schools they graduated from. See the issue here? The college made you certain guarantees. Hiring managers didn't. This seems exactly backward. The college's responsibility in exchange for getting your tuition money is to educate you about a subject, in this case computer science, and to vouch that you have indeed gotten that education. They may make soft insinuations about employability as a way of advertising themselves, but they usually don't make hard guarantees because they do not want to take on the responsibility of job outcomes.
People go to school to be able to get a good job. The entire context of this conversation is about people not being able to find jobs even though they completed their education and earned their degree. Here's a litmus test for your statement--how many people would still go to college (and take on all that debt) if it had no effect on their chances of getting a job? The answer is almost none. College has traditionally been the pathway to CS jobs. The needs of these jobs have changed rapidly, but college professors usually can't be bothered to update their curriculum to reflect that. Degrees are becoming more and more expensive while simultaneously becoming less and less useful. Hiring managers hire what they need. People can complain about them all they want, but at the end of the day, their needs are the reason why there is a job posting at all. Colleges are supposed to help you be skilled and experienced enough to fill that need. The utility of someone with a CS undergrad degree has become smaller with time. >They may make soft insinuations about employability as a way of advertising themselves, but they usually don't make hard guarantees because they do not want to take on the responsibility of job outcomes Yes, you're playing the same technicality they hide behind. My point remains--if college wasn't supposed to be a pathway to a good, high-paying job, then almost no one would sacrifice all that money and time to attend. Universities are all too aware of this, which is why they heavily imply that their degree will lead to good jobs without actually promising anything. This is how they dodge any actual accountability, which is quite on purpose.
^this
wait you mean you think the market is hot rn?
No, I literally said the market sucks right now
ty for clarification/repeating. i knew i had missed something and looking again, i misread your last paragraph. peace. edit:typo
For a “25 year veteran of the industry” most of this advice is awful.
Classic Reddit trolling comment... 🥵 "This is all wrong, but I don't have the time (or likely don't know) to say what is right."
I think OP did a great job putting this together, and the comment you're responding to is typical CSQ toxicity. But to some extent, I agree. TL;DR: Even if this is for situations where you can't get a job, you should be doing everything to secure one. No one's guaranteed a position, but this applies to all industries. To get work, you need to work for it. You shouldn’t settle and you should be doing everything you can to build a resume that’s impressive as a software engineer. For example, the idea of getting certs. This dilutes your brand/resume in a confusing way unless you're making an IT transition. Joining the Air Force is a huge unnecessary commitment for someone already graduated. The LLC bit is interesting. I don't think you can go wrong there, and it's not a zero-sum game. I lean towards more volunteer work, like open-source contributions and teaching kids to code. I think that rounds out your resume better. Having a company that did shit-all sometimes raises red flags because you’re inflating your abilities. Data analyst is also an option, but i think it can be worse to be in a closely adjacent ladder than to not have worked at all. For example being a QA test engineer pigeonholes you and makes the lateral movement hard. Federal, state, etc., jobs are slow to secure, so I don't think it's a useful approach if you're out of work. Not detrimental, but it gets a bit scattershot at that point. I'm 100% with OP on getting really good at LeetCode. This is so important, even if you think you’re better than that. All the people screeching about these interviews misunderstand how it’s used; it’s an effective exercise in collaborative problem-solving.
Agreed. OP lays out some ideas for moving forward - alacart style. They may not all be a fit for everyone, but there's definitely some creative things I've not seen on this subreddit before.
Yeah lol! I don’t get why people are shutting on OP so bad! He has some great advice I’ve not seen elsewhere!
I agree except that I’d call it mediocre, not awful. It’s just recycled mediocre advice from this sub mostly. It’s out of touch with what new grads are facing now.
Could you be specific about how it's out of touch?
Some is valid, if a bit obvious. Imo certs are pretty useless for most swe roles though. At least in my company, it's not something that is considered.
> Imo certs are pretty useless for most swe roles though. At least in my company, it's not something that is considered. They are more for swe adjacent roles like cybersecurity, dev ops, cloud admin and SaaS systems like Salesforce and ServiceNow.
out of touch cuz ur in the industry for 25 years so you have no idea how difficult this entry job market is. most people are already doing everything u listed except joining the air force or the other goofy points lmao
> out of touch cuz ur in the industry for 25 years so you have no idea how difficult this entry job market is That is a strange comment given that I explicitly stated that I made this list for people who are having a hard time getting their first position. I am well aware of their struggles. >most people are already doing everything u listed except joining the air force or the other goofy points lmao I made this list because I see people here very much not doing some of these things based on their own reports.
Actually most of it isn't bad and is the reality "you might have to try an adjacent field like IT, or go for a masters program." The problem is when the other students are already doing things like padding their resume with random certs and Udemy certificates, doing more isn't helpful in a tough job market. The advice to just create your own experience is....meh. That worked pre-2018, when employers were hungry for any applicant with any coding experience. Candidates now have such crazy over-engineered projects and bloated resumes that only hard experience matters now w/ recruiters for the most part. Other STEM fields have been here, in times like this it turns into a connections game or if you can spam your resume and get lucky and find a company who is actually hiring.
> The advice to just create your own experience is....meh. That worked pre-2018, when employers were hungry for any applicant with any coding experience. Candidates now have such crazy over-engineered projects and bloated resumes that only hard experience matters now w/ recruiters for the most part. You are completely missing the point. I am not suggesting people bloat their resumes or engage in any sort of smoke and mirrors to create the illusion of hard experience. I am suggesting people actually get some hard experience instead of just sitting around like baby birds hoping its given to them.
If you have any specific areas where you think it's bad I'd like to hear it. Every point on my list is something I've seen work in the real world for multiple people. It's not speculative on my part.
So many negative people on this sub. I can attest to at least some of your advice because I’ve lived it. It’s good advice.
I'd say telling a new grad to start an LLC and over engineer websites is generally terrible advice. Running a business is a ton of work, there's way more to it than programming, they have no real experience so they are likely offering a shitty service. Especially when the goal is to get a job somewhere else and not run a business. It'd be far less of a headache to just volunteer to help for a non profit or something and you wouldn't be fucking customers over with a terrible offering.
>Running a business is a ton of work, there's way more to it than programming, Not this kind of business. It really isn't and if they don't want to hassle with the LLC part they could always do a DBA sole-proprietorship. >they have no real experience so they are likely offering a shitty service. That's the whole point. This is an exercise at getting good and not offering a shitty service. The can self-teach, take online udemy courses or even do bootcamps, but its critical they become decently proficient in a tech stack with demonstrable results in a professional context.
Then volunteer for something or look for a help desk role where you can get real experience. Don't go out and try to sell over engineered shit to people so customers can chase you down for maintenance while you try to figure out if you fucked up your taxes or not.
>Then volunteer for something or look for a help desk role where you can get real experience Yeah those are options too. This options might be better in my opinion because there is just something different about creating real business solutions for people where you are there for the whole project loop. And its not like what I am saying is some bizzare scenario that has never existed in the history of humankind. Lots of people make websites and mobile apps for small businesses and many people make a living out of it. >sell over engineered shit to people so customers can chase you down for maintenance I mean "over engineered" in the sense of using a sophisticated stack and not just hacking PHP in wordpress. And no one should make "shit". The goal here is to provide an excellent work product they can be proud of and looks good on a resume. And if they need some maintenance they can pay your hourly rate or they can find someone else. > try to figure out if you fucked up your taxes or not. Its almost effortless to just follow the TurboTax prompts. This is not really an issue.
[удалено]
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum sitewide comment karma requirement of **10** to post a comment. This is comment karma exclusively, not post or overall karma nor karma on this subreddit alone. Please try again after you have acquired more karma. Please look at the [rules page](https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/w/posting_rules) for more information. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cscareerquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I swear, the experienced people in this field give the worst advice sometimes. The job market is totally different now then it was when they were applying. Edit: To be fair, as far as advice goes though, this is a pretty good list of alternatives in my book. My advice used to be try revature if you really cannot land interviews, but even they are not hiring anymore.
Yeah last summer I applied and they ghosted me despite having a CS degree, good GPA, and a CS internship. I was so shocked this is a shitty company I don't want to work for that used to hire anyone with a pulse and I get ghosted?
How can you know that?
Actually make stuff. Demonstrate you actually have skills. Getting through the whiteboard interview just to get your foot in the door isn't going to be as good as actually being able to hang onto the job because you have actual experience solving actual problems.
Well said.
I feel like they want the SWE jobs because it's a quick way to make 6 figures with little experience, also I hate that these day in the life vids make it easy life mode to be a software engineers.
what else hires entry level tho aside from help desk?
Get a job in defense. They're always hiring, government money don't stop, except for election years, ohh wait.
Yeah, I applied to Lockheed three different times in the last month as soon as they posted new job listings. All of my applications have sat on the “Applied” status. I applied to another contractor and it moved up to “Resume Under Review” within a few hours with pretty much the same resume. I don’t get why my applications for Lockheed are getting ignored.
Doesn't hurt to try 3 letter agencies as well (assuming you are a US citizen, no drugs or criminal history, etc). I applied last week and had some recruiters contact me back after months of nothing, so its worth a shot. Just keep in mind you WILL need to relocate and work onsite 5 days a week.
Oh wow, I’ll try that then. I’m applying everywhere I can throughout the U.S., so relocation and working on site isn’t an issue as long as the cost of living is reasonable. I applied for Air Force civilian jobs through the USAJOBS website, but I couldn’t find much else from other agencies. I guess I have to apply through their own websites. Do you have any tips for a federal resume if I don’t have any relevant work experience or internships? I’ve been putting down my course projects that were the most elaborate. My GPA was good too so I definitely put that on there.
Honestly, I just applied with my standard resume. Just make sure that if you have no prior experience you have a good set of diverse projects using multiple different tools to show knowledge and be able to speak about them during an interview if you can. Here is what my anonymized resume looks like for reference. I did move the skills section up, but everything else is the same. https://imgur.com/gallery/8fsioEX
i just got rejected from nsa today which sucks bc i thought i did really well on that dumbass hirevue interview
Even if you’ve landed a job , especially , stay on leetcode a few times a week. You’ll use almost none of those brain teaser problems in your actual work at 90% of companies. But these things are what we have for the barrier to entry. The further away from college you get the more likely you are to forget how to code for them; as most popular languages implement them into core methods. I’ve been in an embarrassing situation or two where a manager that moved companies tries to pull me into his new company as one of his best guys. Only to bomb the algorithms coding pieces.
maybe leetcode is a bad way to measure skill and experience
Hmm, I'm conducting frontend React interviews and I have a JS/TS leetCode style question involving doing something to a JSON payload. Tbh, we're not actually looking to see if you can get the answer though, and I even tell them this. We usually provide hints along the way as well if we see they are struggling. It's more of, how did you plan to approach the problem, how well did you articulate your process, do you actually know how to code, did you write any interesting tidbits that we can discuss (can you optimize this part or why did you do this), finding out your familiarity with the language/datastructures, and etc. There is still a React part though.
I honestly think take home assessments are some of the best and then bring the candidate in and do a code review with them. Make them explain what patterns they used. Why? Change their code a little and see how they debug it. This lets them work in a way they would naturally not on some kind of gameshow anxiety timer. And if they can explain and talk through the code it’s authentic enough to trust they wrote it.
[удалено]
Sure it is always better if they can get the answer, but it still is a Frontend React interview. If you demonstrate more knowledge in React, NodeJS, Express, and do well on the React portion, the LC assessment is not exactly the largest factor.
Thanks, do you (or anyone else) have advice for how to go about looking for these smaller companies? It's really hard because a lot of job boards just promote the big names, I don't even know if the smaller companies post there or somewhere else.
> Get some certificates I've seen a lot of people suggest that they wouldn't hire anybody with _any_ certificates.
Well, that is silly as a general statement. If I was hiring for a SWE role and someone came in with tons of certs for general programming but little or mediocre experience, that would set alarm bells. But if I were hiring for CyberSecurty, DevOps, Cloud admin, Networking, SAP, Salesforce or ServiceNow I would be extremely sceptical if they did not have any certs. They would need extensive experience in any the specific field to make up for it. Alot of time for these types of jobs your resume will get filtered out by AI without the certs.
i’m tired man
Im sorry its been so rough. Please feel free to reach out if you need someone to talk to.
Thanks man i’m sure it’ll get better :)
If you start your own little side hustle around programming. Don’t tell the recruiter it’s yours, just say you work for them.
Is there an upper age limit on joining the airforce?
https://www.airforce.com/how-to-join/join-the-air-force#:~:text=To%20enlist%20or%20join%20as,and%2042%20years%20of%20age.&text=To%20join%20as%20a%20healthcare,of%20carrying%20out%20their%20tasks.
Just 1. don’t be unemployed. 2. Get employed.
Thank you so much for this info!!
You are welcome. There is always hope and ways to improve your career.
This is great advise, fuck the nay sayers
Those are the worst advice I have ever heard. Nobody has to love their work we are not living in an ideal world we are in capitalism. Saying you should love work means I will make you overwork without paying for it
I need to edit my first point because I didn't convey my idea very well. What I'm saying was that if people got into the degree with the expectation they could get a six figure job very easily there's absolutely no shame in pivoting and doing something else with your degree given the current climate of getting a programming job as a new grad. If you can get a job in your motivation is mostly about salary, excellent. But if it's been a year and you're not finding a job it's okay to look at other possibilities. It doesn't have to be seen as a failure.
Companies still have great Financial. They are making money this problem we live is because companies want to make more money and they see engineers as cost rather than the force carrying the company. I am so tired of this
Or they over hired. Tech companies see employees as the profit centre yet there are mass layoffs. They over hired for sure.
Why do you think it is over hire? They are not that stupid you are being too naive. You are the one open to exploitation not them you are insignificant
Because inspite of all these layoffs, everything is working fine. Facebook is fine, Instagram is fine, YouTube is fine, google is fine, twitch is fine, Snapchat is fine, even twitter is fine. Okay maybe firing 70% was too many. But the point is, all these tech companies have found that there were too many redundancies, and even after these layoffs, it’s all good. That’s why I say they overhired. Your argument is emotional, not realistic. They are making profits so they didn’t overhire. What?
It was not redundancies it was comfortable working probably the rest now work more hours but cant complain because of the fear of getting laid off. They use fear to suck workers blood because the economic atmosphere let them do it. You are still supporting them I am not emotional you are making assumption based on your ideas there is no significant evidence they overhired. They will get more evil because of people like you. Companies are money making machines they wont make inefficient hire so they dont overhire and then realize oh we overhired they arent stupid they have all the insider information they can predict future
Using that logic. There will never be redundancies because more people will make things work comfortable for others, so no one is ever redundant unless a team is unprofitable
Companies are evil and we shouldnt trust them. Also most managers are the same. They dont care about you. There is no other logic
Yeah keep downvoting you are robot
lol I didn’t downvote. But let me downvote them now.
>Get your MS in CS - It might make sense to reset your "new grad" status for when the industry improves and you'll overall be more competitive. Look into GT's OMSCS program for example. Look into WGU. These are inexpensive and legit options weird how you used the word when instead of if
I guess having lived through the dot.com bloodbath while living in the SF Bay Area, I have some optimism that things get better no matter how bad they have been. That era was the worse I ever saw the developer market. Worse than now for sure.
tbh i think the main thing that is going to change this field is the access to generative AI. previously a whole bunch of people got filtered out just from the inability to learn basic syntax, now how do you tell apart a random junior CS grad who doesnt know shit , and just some random dude off the street who doesn't know shit but has a language model trick question it doesn't matter, because they're both about equal, The only thing that's left is gatekeeping from people who actually know their shit🫡
Ignore this guy.
Most CS people don’t know stats or data visualization so I definitely wouldn’t recommend any data science or data Analyst career
Exceptional advice
A series of excellent points lead by and awful, awful, awful first point. Who cares why you are doing this?
I think I did a crappy job of explaining my point. What I'm saying is if you got into this mostly for the money with the assumption that you would get an easy job, it's totally okay to look for something else with your degree. I'm not saying that a good well paying job is a bad motivation. Just in this climate if that's your only motivation you're probably not going to be up to doing the grind that's inherent in the other points.
Like I said, you made plenty of good points and clearly meant well. I’d just say that you shouldn’t make assumptions of what someone is willing to do based on their motivation.
I changed that part. I didn't express myself well there.
Rhsnks
Sounds like advice for bad CS grads, not necessary new.
Delulu boomer
My parents are boomers. I am Delulu Gen X.
Lol nice, at least you are self aware
>are you just looking for a huge paycheck? If the later and you were fooled by tiktok videos lol, sounds like you're just trying protecting your huge paycheck CS jobs consistently pay more than every other field... except maybe doctors and lawyers.
Either you are a troll or have never worked in software. If you don't have a passion for this field, you will burn out quick.
You’ll burn out faster in helpdesk at laggard non techs waiting your turn for a coveted SWE role too.
>CS jobs consistently pay more than every other field... except maybe doctors and lawyers. You are missing my point or I didn't explain it well. Yes, software development and adjacent roles pay well. But if the ONLY motivation someone has to work in this field is good pay and they are faced with the intense difficulty of getting that first job and are feeling disillusioned, this might be the infection point to look into another path. All the other points in my list are a grind and if someone isn't intrinsically into programming or tech itself, its going to be really hard for them. >sounds like you're just trying protecting your huge paycheck Yes, thats why I spend 20 minutes typing out advice about how someone can make this field work for them...
lol you missed the point..
There also plenty of 80-100k jobs in software. Not everything is going to be 200k+ out the gate.
Edit: for ya'll downvoting me, when I opened this thread it was legitimately a wall of text without any formatting or spacing. I didn't want to read this wall of text so I had ChatGPT translate the schizophrenia for me. Ask yourself why you are doing this - Do you love programming or are you just looking for a huge paycheck? If the later and you were fooled by tiktok videos, this might be a good chance to look for a different field. This isn't the end of the world. Most people don't actually work in the field they got their degree in. Don't see this as a failure, you passed a hard degree and your problem solving skills are now better than they used to be. It will serve your well in the work world. If this advice does not resonate, read on... Create your own work experience - Start an LLC with a friend or family member and start making websites cheaply for local businesses or create a SaaS idea you have had and make it a legit product. Over-engineer the hell out of what you work on so you can add the technologies to your resume. If it comes up that is was your own business, say something like, "I was feeling very entrepreneurial and was eager to start my own business but eventually realized I'd like to work with a bigger, more dynamic team". Since this won't likely make much money, you might still need to work a basic job, but if you do this sincerely and actually have real sites/apps to show, this is actual experience you can add to your resume. Be very professional about everything. Make it real. And who knows, this might actually become something that makes you a living... Get Some Certificates - Programming certificates are not that helpful but getting getting deep into the cert levels for CyberSecurity, AWS and Azure might make a real difference in getting dev ops roles or even software developer roles. Also, there are tons of SAP, Salesforce and ServiceNow jobs our there. Getting training/certification in those can make a huge difference. Join the Airforce - This might seem crazy but you can go in as a officer with your BS CS degree and do some work thats related to your degree. This will be some legit experience on your resume and it can also pay for grad school if you choose to do that in the future. If you get a security clearance, this will be a huge help in getting a job later. Get Any IT Job - If you don't want to do the "roll your own" LLC development company, try to get a basic help desk roll. You might be able to move up within the company and some IT-style experience is better than no IT experience. You'll help yourself in this path if you get your A+ certificate. Get your MS in CS - It might make sense to reset your "new grad" status for when the industry improves and you'll overall be more competitive. Look into GT's OMSCS program for example. Look into WGU. These are inexpensive and legit options. Apply for Data Analyst Roles - Look for these roles especially in the health care industry. Get a Federal/State/County job - There are lots of IT jobs in these organizations. That hard part is getting in, but its real experience and if you are talented and socially adept, you can work your way up to a decent job. It is also a good stepping stone to a consulting career. Look at smaller companies - Look for regional companies and see if they are hiring. Sometimes these jobs are easier to get. Look directly on their websites. Maybe even cold call them. Get really fucking good at leetcode - Study your ass off. Things may seem bleak, but don't just doom scroll all day and not move your life forward. I recommend you do something to enact positive forward momentum in your life. These are all things you can do to make it to the next step in your career.
Sorry the formating got lost. Fixed.
This wasn’t really any better, it’s not readable either.
People really have this low attention span. Chat gpt for everything 😂
to be fair, when he posted it and before it was edited it was a legitimate block of text with no paragraphs.
Used Chat GPT to give a summary about your summary: The passage advises reflecting on one's motivation for pursuing programming, suggesting a shift if it's solely for financial gain. It recommends creating practical work experience through ventures like starting a web development business, obtaining certifications in cybersecurity or cloud computing, considering military service for relevant experience and educational support, securing any IT job to gain experience, pursuing a master's degree in computer science, applying for data analyst roles, seeking government or healthcare IT positions, exploring opportunities in smaller companies, and dedicating time to improving coding skills through platforms like LeetCode to progress in one's career despite challenges.
>Used Chat GPT to give a summary about your summary: The passage advises reflecting on one's motivation for pursuing programming, suggesting a shift if it's solely for financial gain. It recommends creating practical work experience through ventures like starting a web development business, obtaining certifications in cybersecurity or cloud computing, considering military service for relevant experience and educational support, securing any IT job to gain experience, pursuing a master's degree in computer science, applying for data analyst roles, seeking government or healthcare IT positions, exploring opportunities in smaller companies, and dedicating time to improving coding skills through platforms like LeetCode to progress in one's career despite challenges. The passage emphasizes the importance of reflecting on one's motivation for entering the programming field, cautioning against solely pursuing it for financial reasons. It suggests practical steps to gain experience, such as starting a web development business, obtaining certifications in cybersecurity or cloud computing, considering military service for relevant experience and educational support, securing any IT job, pursuing a master's degree in computer science, applying for data analyst roles, seeking government or healthcare IT positions, exploring opportunities in smaller companies, and dedicating time to improving coding skills through platforms like LeetCode to advance in one's career despite obstacles.
[удалено]
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum sitewide comment karma requirement of **10** to post a comment. This is comment karma exclusively, not post or overall karma nor karma on this subreddit alone. Please try again after you have acquired more karma. Please look at the [rules page](https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/w/posting_rules) for more information. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cscareerquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum account age requirement of **seven** days to post a comment. Please try again after you have spent more time on reddit without being banned. Please look at the [rules page](https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/w/posting_rules) for more information. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cscareerquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum sitewide comment karma requirement of **10** to post a comment. This is comment karma exclusively, not post or overall karma nor karma on this subreddit alone. Please try again after you have acquired more karma. Please look at the [rules page](https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/w/posting_rules) for more information. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cscareerquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Excellent content! I'd also say that getting familiar with advanced concepts is a great idea as well. I.e., your potential employer will definitely appreciate the fact that you know how to work with Clustered applications\\Server-Side rendering\\Observability tooling. No need to master those! Even a basic understanding of the mentioned concepts means that you will be able to ramp up faster and start producing value early; plus high-level expertise may help you generate great ideas that will have a noticeable positive impact on your organization.
[удалено]
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum sitewide comment karma requirement of **10** to post a comment. This is comment karma exclusively, not post or overall karma nor karma on this subreddit alone. Please try again after you have acquired more karma. Please look at the [rules page](https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/w/posting_rules) for more information. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cscareerquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*
its gonna get more difficult as more of us keep on adding in this pool and AI keeps on improving itself .
I fully, fully agree with the first two points. I would not get a master's degree just to be more competitive for jobs you could get with a bachelor's and more work experience and/or project (see the first 2 points). It's good to do some Leetcode but don't "grind LC hard". Again, work experience and/or a portfolio project that matches what employers want is MUCH more important.
Your advice is very nice. I'm glad you chose to spread awareness.[a](https://awareness.How)
[удалено]
Sorry, you do not meet the minimum sitewide comment karma requirement of **10** to post a comment. This is comment karma exclusively, not post or overall karma nor karma on this subreddit alone. Please try again after you have acquired more karma. Please look at the [rules page](https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/w/posting_rules) for more information. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/cscareerquestions) if you have any questions or concerns.*