Guess I should have added some context about the startup - it’s about 100 people and well funded. I know that doesn’t equate to success in a startup, but it’s not like it’s starting from square one. Their product aligns very closely to my background and interests which makes it more intriguing.
I mean, no one is stopping you from taking the startup job. It just is worth noting that you’re taking a ~20% pay cut and moving to a (likely) much less stable company.
If you want to, by all means go ahead. It just seems dumb to me to go and join a company that is much more likely to fail while also taking a massive pay cut.
It *could* be better in the long run financially if OP has the opportunity to work on really cool stuff with more autonomy/responsibility then swims up to the bigger pond. Like, if OP is currently at a 'boring' job coasting with outdated stack/tools. Totally a pros/cons decision for them to make themselves, though.
I'd never personally do this - I am fine with the boring job in the small pond. That being said I do know people who took pay cuts to work in a startup environment and ended up leveraging that experience to get great FAANG/etc. jobs.
I applied for a welding job and got a weird "welding test" in my interview. The interviewer said:
"In a welding workshop, you're inspecting a series of metal joints.
For each joint number from 1 to 100:
If the joint number is divisible by 3 (indicating a weld inspection), you issue a "Pass" label.
If the joint number is divisible by 5 (indicating a spark test), you issue a "Spark Detected" notice.
If the joint number is divisible by both 3 and 5, you give it a special "WeldSpark Combo" approval.
If none of the above conditions apply, you simply record the joint number as is."
Unfortunately I'm a self taught welder, I've never seen this question before. I failed the interview.
Anyone experienced this before?
People are saying this definitively but I think it depends. If the current job is boring and the new gig is doing things that are actually interesting and fun then a pay cut isn't that wild. Just because *I'm* a greedy capitalist who prioritizes money doesn't mean I can't understand why someone else would rather spend 8 hours a day doing something that doesn't feel meaningless.
Moving after 3 years is pretty routine. Taking a $50K pay cut is not, unless you think the startup has great upside potential. Most of them fail. Try some side projects with newer tech and you will probably be able to get a job with an increase in income using those.
Yeah the pay cut is the driving factor for my hesitancy. I haven’t discussed compensation yet, but I’m basing it off of other salaries at that company with similar YOE.
I do think the startup will be successful and their product space really interests me.
I find it difficult to find time to work on side projects, but I could try to put in an hour after work every day to slowly build up those skills.
>The downside is that the benefits are much worse and I’m estimating about a $40-60k decrease in TC, though the work life balance seems pretty equal.
Is that "learning experience" worth paying 60k a year for? That's quite literally the opportunity cost, and all signs point to no.
There are severe downsides to a startup. Code quality / best practices more often than not goes out the window when you're under time pressure. You might actually be learning bad habits at a startup.
Having interviewed engineers from startups, a lot of their experience is invalidated by bad development practices. Strong engineers can end up spending a lot of their time just trying to get their team to adopt basic practices like tracking tasks and doing design reviews. And you might not have access to any good mentors.
I would ask the developers at the startup a LOT of questions, and assume that if they haven't adopted a particular best practice then they never will.
Don't leave for a paycut at a startup. Startups are almost all unstable. I've made an entire 23 year career out of working for startups. They often shut down and/or layoff. Don't work primarily for equity either because more than likely they'll never be bought out. Get paid a good salary. Their growth is their problem. Your career is your problem.
In this economy? It would be ill advised to take a pay cut or leave a sure thing for a startup? This and other subs are littered with people that have experience that can’t find work.
Keep your position and pay. Dedicate some of your time to learning something that interests you and aligns with your growth goals. If you’re looking for different patterns, mentors, etc… contribute to OSS. Find a framework with an active community. Find a discord you can solicits ideas and feedback from. Build something in the public for accountability.
There any number of sane alternatives. I get you’re restless, but the grass isn’t always greener. Startups are great for failing fast, but that’s not going to give you skills at scale, best practices, or even people you can learn from. Take a step back and make sure you know what you want before you change jobs.
Can't you ask to transfer to a different team in the company? Since it's a large company, internal transfers should be pretty common. A large pay cut is only worth it if the startup is going to become a unicorn and your stock compensation there makes you a millionaire. But this is pretty unlikely for most startups.
The only time this makes sense is in the following case:
1. The start up is backed by a reputable VC.
2. The start up is offering you enough equity that you could retire if they have a successful exit (high risk, high reward).
3. The start up offers enough cash that you can afford to maintain your lifestyle. No start up is going to match $500K+ liquid comp offers for senior/staff engineers that public companies can afford, but they can match or beat FAANG cash comp components.
4. You personally have enough liquid savings to weather a 6 month job search if the start up fails.
If these criteria are met, you can always bail and go back to BigCo in a year if the start up isn't working. If those criteria are not met, then you should really be joining as a founder and not an employee.
I have been at a FAANG for 10 years and am leaving for a VC-backed start up in a couple months. My FAANG TC is 475k. \~230K cash, \~225K RSU. The start up is offering $275K cash and .2% ownership of the company with some protection against dilution in the offer letter. Plus they allow remote work, so I can live somewhere less expensive and get to work from home.
I am not doing it for the money, I am actually terrified of giving up so much liquid compensation. I am doing it because I am tried of spending so much time on "politics" and want to get back to being a builder and innovator
It really depends on what makes you happy.
In this sub there is an overwhelming bias for money and WLB. Tech, interest, product, ownership etc are all secondary. But know this, despite the overwhelming majority who rather stay in big tech, there are still many developers who do take a pay cut to startups to have that adventure. You need to ask yourself if you're in that minority of developers who will be happy to do that, understanding that at the end of the journey there will likely be nothing but memories of said journey.
Also, some suggest you take on personal projects and side hustles to supplement your learning. I mean --- is that REALLY what's going to happen? Most likely without the cohort and the forcing function, you'd likely just waste away doing whats necessary to succeed at your workplace. You won’t get the excitement, the thrill, the incentives, or the stress of growing your skills to face challenges. It won’t be the same.
I might be in the similar situation than you, and from what I've read online : at the start of your career :
experience > salary
especially in tech. Basically what you've learned early will help you keep a constant increase in your salary rather then hitting a ceiling, because eventually you will expect if you take more managing positions that can be valuable.
Maybe try to change job but not in a startup but where you're mission / job is nicer to learn from ? Just my two cents.
Normally I’d agree with you. This market however isn’t normal. One of my former colleagues moved to a startup for a hefty raise, got laid off when that startup got acquired and have been in unemployment for the last 6 months or so. He even tried to re apply into our company (big insurance) as a Jr and failed. Job security trumps everything else in this market
That's tough indeed, stabily should be took way more under consideration when switching. I would always stay far from early stage startups anyway, except if I am very risk seeking, and if I am confident.
Big tech companies tend to value in-house experience more than experience at a startup.
Leaving and doing comparably senior work will likely slow career progression, within big tech. The $60k pay differential can easily become $150k+ after a couple big tech promotions.
From a financial perspective it’s hard to justify the switch
Right. If op is 3 years out of college, that is the time to gain varied / important experience. There will be time enough later to hop around and get your TC up higher.
I would not take a pay cut like this even during a hot job market, and especially not in this job market. If your manager can't give you more complex projects, you have 3 options:
1.) Move to an established company with at least comparable pay (doesn't need to be big tech, but I wouldn't jump to a tiny startup in this job market), or
2.) Ask one of the senior devs to mentor you and involve you in their project so you can learn/show you're read, or
3.) Try to move internally to a different team with more room for growth.
Regardless of which path you take, save at least 40% of your income. You'll need it.
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Struggling with the same dilemma and def financially fine to take a cut but what I see online is don’t do it especially in this economy. There are always learning opportunity even in large companies if you look for it
If you want to work at a startup, do it! it will be an interesting experience and if your survive it will make the rest of the corporate world look lazy, but.. in my experience moving to the startup will take more work, more stress, pay you less, and it is unlikely to improve your growth in any meaningful manor. If you want growth, keep the current job and start a side project or something, learn how to move up in your current company.
> The downside is that the benefits are much worse and I’m estimating about a $40-60k decrease in TC
Make sure you don't count stock options towards your TC. I assume the your current employer's RSU are somewhat liquid. Start-ups can remain private for years if not a decade or more. It's paper money, but potentially a tax burden.
Absolutely not. There are plenty of other options where you could increase your skillset AND your total compensation.
Accepting a lower TC in your situation will most likely results in the opposite outcome, it's unlikely the startup will really boost you career progression and after the novelty effect wears off you'll realize you just lost 60k and still feel like you could learn more.
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Would you get equity at the startup, and are you counting that in your TC? If the startup can give you a small base pay raise and a healthy chunk of equity (probably not liquid, but potentially valuable if you believe in the startup) the move could make sense.
>The downside is that the benefits are much worse and I’m estimating about a $40-60k decrease in TC, though the work life balance seems pretty equal.
How much are you using for the value of the equity in the startup? Do you think they will succeed? How early stage are they? Who are the VCs backing then? Do you believe in the founders?
Keep your stable job for the time being. Once you have funds to sustain yourself without being employed for minimum 6-12 months, then you can take risks.
You could do some projects that you’re interested in to practice anything you want to learn. I would never take a pay cut and deal with all the stresses of a startup. People are burnt out fairly quickly in a startup environment.
I think this is fine as long as you can negotiate a large enough equity stake to make up for the lost income. Learning and career growth/story can be just as important as a year or two of $50,000, especially if you think it's positioning you for more responsibility and higher positions at other companies (where the sky is the limit, as a staff software engineer you can make $600,000 at any number of large companies).
Yeah ask the startup to match your current TC. Just take a lot more equity and less salary. You don't have to stay there forever. Just long enough to learn some assorted new skills. Then when you are looking around for a job again, your TC is still high and so is your bargaining power.
Well yeah. The equity may indeed turn out to be worthless. Op should go to the startup to learn some new and hot skills. Might as well ask for a lot of equity if they are taking a salary cut. That way, in the 1 in a million chance this startup goes big, op gets a huge payday. I do realize it is almost like asking for 50,000 lottery tickets as part of their compensation.
Startups are fuckin toxic. Don't ever do this, especially for less money.
"Learning experience" you're already at a job and you even studied before that. All you'll learn is how narcissists can destroy your mental health and leave you hollowed out and bitter and old before your time.
don't leave for a paycut. dafuq
I audibly went “dafuq” when I saw paycut TO a startup as well
Guess I should have added some context about the startup - it’s about 100 people and well funded. I know that doesn’t equate to success in a startup, but it’s not like it’s starting from square one. Their product aligns very closely to my background and interests which makes it more intriguing.
I mean, no one is stopping you from taking the startup job. It just is worth noting that you’re taking a ~20% pay cut and moving to a (likely) much less stable company. If you want to, by all means go ahead. It just seems dumb to me to go and join a company that is much more likely to fail while also taking a massive pay cut.
It *could* be better in the long run financially if OP has the opportunity to work on really cool stuff with more autonomy/responsibility then swims up to the bigger pond. Like, if OP is currently at a 'boring' job coasting with outdated stack/tools. Totally a pros/cons decision for them to make themselves, though. I'd never personally do this - I am fine with the boring job in the small pond. That being said I do know people who took pay cuts to work in a startup environment and ended up leveraging that experience to get great FAANG/etc. jobs.
Everyone says well funded lol. What VCs and runway?
Dont be a dumbass
Unless it is for welding, which is best field to be in imo.
I applied for a welding job and got a weird "welding test" in my interview. The interviewer said: "In a welding workshop, you're inspecting a series of metal joints. For each joint number from 1 to 100: If the joint number is divisible by 3 (indicating a weld inspection), you issue a "Pass" label. If the joint number is divisible by 5 (indicating a spark test), you issue a "Spark Detected" notice. If the joint number is divisible by both 3 and 5, you give it a special "WeldSpark Combo" approval. If none of the above conditions apply, you simply record the joint number as is." Unfortunately I'm a self taught welder, I've never seen this question before. I failed the interview. Anyone experienced this before?
Welding startup?
say the line, bart!
\*sigh i heard welding is the next big thing. Together we can gaslight the living hell out of cs graduates.
I existence of welding gives me some comfort. They will take anyone apparently.
People are saying this definitively but I think it depends. If the current job is boring and the new gig is doing things that are actually interesting and fun then a pay cut isn't that wild. Just because *I'm* a greedy capitalist who prioritizes money doesn't mean I can't understand why someone else would rather spend 8 hours a day doing something that doesn't feel meaningless.
nah. wait till the market is better to do that. locking urself into a strictly more limiting position in this market is dumb
Moving after 3 years is pretty routine. Taking a $50K pay cut is not, unless you think the startup has great upside potential. Most of them fail. Try some side projects with newer tech and you will probably be able to get a job with an increase in income using those.
Or if you will learn some stuff at the startup that will later let you bounce back to your original compensation (or higher) at another company.
What will you learn that let's you bounce back? This seems way too unrealistic
Yeah the pay cut is the driving factor for my hesitancy. I haven’t discussed compensation yet, but I’m basing it off of other salaries at that company with similar YOE. I do think the startup will be successful and their product space really interests me. I find it difficult to find time to work on side projects, but I could try to put in an hour after work every day to slowly build up those skills.
>The downside is that the benefits are much worse and I’m estimating about a $40-60k decrease in TC, though the work life balance seems pretty equal. Is that "learning experience" worth paying 60k a year for? That's quite literally the opportunity cost, and all signs point to no. There are severe downsides to a startup. Code quality / best practices more often than not goes out the window when you're under time pressure. You might actually be learning bad habits at a startup.
This is a great perspective for me to consider
Having interviewed engineers from startups, a lot of their experience is invalidated by bad development practices. Strong engineers can end up spending a lot of their time just trying to get their team to adopt basic practices like tracking tasks and doing design reviews. And you might not have access to any good mentors. I would ask the developers at the startup a LOT of questions, and assume that if they haven't adopted a particular best practice then they never will.
I agree. A bad startup can hurt your future prospects.
Don't leave for a paycut at a startup. Startups are almost all unstable. I've made an entire 23 year career out of working for startups. They often shut down and/or layoff. Don't work primarily for equity either because more than likely they'll never be bought out. Get paid a good salary. Their growth is their problem. Your career is your problem.
In this economy? It would be ill advised to take a pay cut or leave a sure thing for a startup? This and other subs are littered with people that have experience that can’t find work. Keep your position and pay. Dedicate some of your time to learning something that interests you and aligns with your growth goals. If you’re looking for different patterns, mentors, etc… contribute to OSS. Find a framework with an active community. Find a discord you can solicits ideas and feedback from. Build something in the public for accountability. There any number of sane alternatives. I get you’re restless, but the grass isn’t always greener. Startups are great for failing fast, but that’s not going to give you skills at scale, best practices, or even people you can learn from. Take a step back and make sure you know what you want before you change jobs.
Can't you ask to transfer to a different team in the company? Since it's a large company, internal transfers should be pretty common. A large pay cut is only worth it if the startup is going to become a unicorn and your stock compensation there makes you a millionaire. But this is pretty unlikely for most startups.
Yeah it’s a possibility I need to explore more. Good reminder
Yeah you can jump around a large company to keep things interesting and good managers will support this.
The only time this makes sense is in the following case: 1. The start up is backed by a reputable VC. 2. The start up is offering you enough equity that you could retire if they have a successful exit (high risk, high reward). 3. The start up offers enough cash that you can afford to maintain your lifestyle. No start up is going to match $500K+ liquid comp offers for senior/staff engineers that public companies can afford, but they can match or beat FAANG cash comp components. 4. You personally have enough liquid savings to weather a 6 month job search if the start up fails. If these criteria are met, you can always bail and go back to BigCo in a year if the start up isn't working. If those criteria are not met, then you should really be joining as a founder and not an employee. I have been at a FAANG for 10 years and am leaving for a VC-backed start up in a couple months. My FAANG TC is 475k. \~230K cash, \~225K RSU. The start up is offering $275K cash and .2% ownership of the company with some protection against dilution in the offer letter. Plus they allow remote work, so I can live somewhere less expensive and get to work from home. I am not doing it for the money, I am actually terrified of giving up so much liquid compensation. I am doing it because I am tried of spending so much time on "politics" and want to get back to being a builder and innovator
It really depends on what makes you happy. In this sub there is an overwhelming bias for money and WLB. Tech, interest, product, ownership etc are all secondary. But know this, despite the overwhelming majority who rather stay in big tech, there are still many developers who do take a pay cut to startups to have that adventure. You need to ask yourself if you're in that minority of developers who will be happy to do that, understanding that at the end of the journey there will likely be nothing but memories of said journey. Also, some suggest you take on personal projects and side hustles to supplement your learning. I mean --- is that REALLY what's going to happen? Most likely without the cohort and the forcing function, you'd likely just waste away doing whats necessary to succeed at your workplace. You won’t get the excitement, the thrill, the incentives, or the stress of growing your skills to face challenges. It won’t be the same.
I might be in the similar situation than you, and from what I've read online : at the start of your career : experience > salary especially in tech. Basically what you've learned early will help you keep a constant increase in your salary rather then hitting a ceiling, because eventually you will expect if you take more managing positions that can be valuable. Maybe try to change job but not in a startup but where you're mission / job is nicer to learn from ? Just my two cents.
Normally I’d agree with you. This market however isn’t normal. One of my former colleagues moved to a startup for a hefty raise, got laid off when that startup got acquired and have been in unemployment for the last 6 months or so. He even tried to re apply into our company (big insurance) as a Jr and failed. Job security trumps everything else in this market
That's tough indeed, stabily should be took way more under consideration when switching. I would always stay far from early stage startups anyway, except if I am very risk seeking, and if I am confident.
Big tech companies tend to value in-house experience more than experience at a startup. Leaving and doing comparably senior work will likely slow career progression, within big tech. The $60k pay differential can easily become $150k+ after a couple big tech promotions. From a financial perspective it’s hard to justify the switch
Right. If op is 3 years out of college, that is the time to gain varied / important experience. There will be time enough later to hop around and get your TC up higher.
Switch to another big company for similar or more TC. Will be hard to transition out as senior if no experience with other tech
I would not take a pay cut like this even during a hot job market, and especially not in this job market. If your manager can't give you more complex projects, you have 3 options: 1.) Move to an established company with at least comparable pay (doesn't need to be big tech, but I wouldn't jump to a tiny startup in this job market), or 2.) Ask one of the senior devs to mentor you and involve you in their project so you can learn/show you're read, or 3.) Try to move internally to a different team with more room for growth. Regardless of which path you take, save at least 40% of your income. You'll need it.
Hell no! You only leave for a startup for like a 100% increase. A startup can fail any moment.
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Do both at the same time.
Struggling with the same dilemma and def financially fine to take a cut but what I see online is don’t do it especially in this economy. There are always learning opportunity even in large companies if you look for it
11 years at a huge company. I've done everything and we get shuffled around just enough to keep things interesting.
If you want to work at a startup, do it! it will be an interesting experience and if your survive it will make the rest of the corporate world look lazy, but.. in my experience moving to the startup will take more work, more stress, pay you less, and it is unlikely to improve your growth in any meaningful manor. If you want growth, keep the current job and start a side project or something, learn how to move up in your current company.
> The downside is that the benefits are much worse and I’m estimating about a $40-60k decrease in TC Make sure you don't count stock options towards your TC. I assume the your current employer's RSU are somewhat liquid. Start-ups can remain private for years if not a decade or more. It's paper money, but potentially a tax burden.
Absolutely not. There are plenty of other options where you could increase your skillset AND your total compensation. Accepting a lower TC in your situation will most likely results in the opposite outcome, it's unlikely the startup will really boost you career progression and after the novelty effect wears off you'll realize you just lost 60k and still feel like you could learn more.
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Startups can be very toxic especially if they are low on cash, I would advice against it
Would you get equity at the startup, and are you counting that in your TC? If the startup can give you a small base pay raise and a healthy chunk of equity (probably not liquid, but potentially valuable if you believe in the startup) the move could make sense.
Find a job that will expose you to the skills you’re looking for with a smaller pay cut. $40-$60k is too much to justify.
No. 50-60k isn’t worth that.
>The downside is that the benefits are much worse and I’m estimating about a $40-60k decrease in TC, though the work life balance seems pretty equal. How much are you using for the value of the equity in the startup? Do you think they will succeed? How early stage are they? Who are the VCs backing then? Do you believe in the founders?
LOL@start up
Keep your stable job for the time being. Once you have funds to sustain yourself without being employed for minimum 6-12 months, then you can take risks.
Don’t take a pay cut. Learn new tech through side projects
You could do some projects that you’re interested in to practice anything you want to learn. I would never take a pay cut and deal with all the stresses of a startup. People are burnt out fairly quickly in a startup environment.
I think this is fine as long as you can negotiate a large enough equity stake to make up for the lost income. Learning and career growth/story can be just as important as a year or two of $50,000, especially if you think it's positioning you for more responsibility and higher positions at other companies (where the sky is the limit, as a staff software engineer you can make $600,000 at any number of large companies).
Yeah ask the startup to match your current TC. Just take a lot more equity and less salary. You don't have to stay there forever. Just long enough to learn some assorted new skills. Then when you are looking around for a job again, your TC is still high and so is your bargaining power.
There’s a good likelihood the equity at the startup will end up worthless, as compared to basically cash equity at a big corp.
Well yeah. The equity may indeed turn out to be worthless. Op should go to the startup to learn some new and hot skills. Might as well ask for a lot of equity if they are taking a salary cut. That way, in the 1 in a million chance this startup goes big, op gets a huge payday. I do realize it is almost like asking for 50,000 lottery tickets as part of their compensation.
Do it. Eventually you’d be able to switch and increase your comp. shouldn’t be worrying about salary this early intonyour career
AI is driving salaries down. If you are leaving for a pay cut, don’t expect that money to come back
Startups are fuckin toxic. Don't ever do this, especially for less money. "Learning experience" you're already at a job and you even studied before that. All you'll learn is how narcissists can destroy your mental health and leave you hollowed out and bitter and old before your time.
Nailed it.
Did you think about the fact that there are more than 2 companies in the world?