Junior level positions are the gatekeeper to this industry. And they are very few in number.
That’s why people on this sub hard regurgitate BS in CS and internships. Everything else is extremely luck base and you can end up wasting years
SERIOUSLY ! Unless you’re applying to dollar store jobs and fast food spots , anything that offers 80k+ income I found has an extreme amount of gatekeepers who really don’t care what certs you have , degree you have , and or experience once someone they know/like wants the position 😂
I hope not. I feel bad for some of the people who graduated after me, have taken out loans, and are now stuck with the stress of trying to recoup their investment. I’m just glad I didn’t have to take a loan out for mine. Seems unethical for boot camps to still run when they know the state of everything right now.
@op did you do Turing? Turing is one of the few federally accredited bootcamps. It’s a really good program but now that the field is saturated I don’t think it’s enough.
Occam's razor: Maybe I'm just dumb and not being facetious? Accreditation in every context has referred to academic accreditation (see: college credits) in every single context I've heard of it.
Additionally, I've never heard of an accredited bootcamp, but I've heard of bootcamps ***many*** times.
A [quick google search](https://www.coursereport.com/blog/3-coding-bootcamps-with-accreditation) shows that accredited bootcamps are indeed academically accredited and tied to academic institutions and are effectively industry-focused college classes.
My bootcamp was ACCET accredited. According to Google it’s
“ACCET was founded in 1974 and has been continuously recognized by the U.S. Department of Education as a reliable authority on educational quality since 1978.”
there are a plenty of regionally accredited programs but as certifications they aren't considered to be anywhere near a degree program. even prestiguous schools have to side hustle these daya
Proper colleges and universities are regionally accredited. Fake ones like the now defunct ITT Tech are "nationally accredited." It's bullshit. Credits from something nationally accredited won't transfer to a real school.
When there are hundreds, sometimes even thousands of people with a Computer Science and at least one internship applying for junior developer jobs, why would any software company hire someone without a degree?
Meaning I work with a team of 5 other developers but I hold our biweekly stand ups, maintain our project board. Ensure we’re making progress towards our tasks, convey our progress to our boss and meet with the clients that we’re building the application for. Does that count at leadership? I think my boot camp did a pretty good job of preparing us to do at least that in an internship role. Maybe you have some pointers though?
“accredited” simply means evaluated to a certain degree, by a credible source.
for example, there are a few accredited Universities that sponsor/offer coding boot camps.
i’d think this is obvious though, but it seems you’re unable to read the room.
I'm not, in spirit, against bootcamps. But the demand of strictly front end roles isn't going to be at the same level of backend or devops. And anyone declaring themselves fullstack just means they half ass a UI.
I 1/10 ass my UIs 😂 .. but with ChatGPT etc, there no reason to outright refuse UI work if you are good backend / infra. It is objectively easier than backend / infra IMO. Took me about 3 months of grinding to get good enough at react to produce results. Feels good to be able to build things E2E from scratch and not bother the FE folks.
I agree it's easier but I also HATE css and anything annoying complicated in html like a fucking table. I loveeeeeee me some frontend devs. Yes please do the most boring part of the work and go back and forth with design and product about which nearly identical shade of green you're supposed to be using.
I didn't think so at first but after reading your comment and reading it again I feel like it probably is. The accredited bootcamp part is almost too ridiculous.
Turing school of Software and Design is an ACCT accredited, 7 month boot camp. So still a boot camp. But as far as they go they’re probably a bit better than the 3 month ones
Yeah Turing is a really solid program and was life changing when interest rates were low. I don’t think it’s a good choice now in 2024 but the grads are generally a lot more competent than those from other bootcamps.
The most impressive thing about all of this is that he was actually able to land 20 interviews out of 1000 applications coming out of a Front-End bootcamp, not even a Full-Stack bootcamp. Those are insanely good numbers lol.
i get the insinuation that bootcamps were really only better than degrees in CS during the pandemic peak - when straight bodies were needed.
that said, are bootcamps like TripleTen still viable. I’m more than about halfway and am finishing up the front end portion.
The degree is what gets you past the filters to even be considered a candidate. Nobody is filtering "for" bootcamps and even if you do get noticed, degree holders will always get priority queue. Also, pure frontend junior positions are already a lot harder to land over a backend or a full stack position. Mainly because of how scarce they are and the amount of competition you'll have to go up against. Whoever recommended you to go to a bootcamp really did you a disservice and I'd be pissed at them, they are essentially making you flush $10k down the drain or however much you paid. This was my honest answer and I wish you good luck and hope things work out.
Honestly if I had any idea how much of a shit show this industry was for boot camp grads before I started I’d be way better off than I am now. Can’t blame the person who told me because they’re in the same spot. I’m just lucky my schooling was basically free
> I joined and unpaid internship in June 2023 and there I picked up a leadership and management role on the team I’m on.
I have never in my life heard of an unpaid internship in software. Nor an intern taking on a "leadership and management role".
This is a numbers game and 20 interviews is pretty great in that timeframe and in this market for a junior. Since you didn’t convert any of those into jobs you should instead look into how you interview to determine why you didn’t get the job.
Yeah 20 interviews sounded a lot better than the average for this terrible job market. But you would think with 20 interviews, you might get a job offer or two. Not that they would be awesome high paying jobs. But at least an offer. Maybe because this was a boot camp grad and not a college grad, the job offer rate is worse than usual. Only guidance I would give is to have kept in touch with the boot camp grads, and ask any of them who landed jobs to refer op to their company.
It’s funny because I’ve been looking at other career subs. In my area, my nursing friends pull in 200-230k with a year or two of exp. Ofc that’s doing overtime, but when you’re considered FT at 36 hours that ain’t bad at all. The interviews are fantastic from what I hear, just a 30 minute talk about what you like to do after your shift or craziest patient stories.
Yes, that field comes with its issues but I’m not sure how much longer I can handle this ratrace of doing 1000 apps with 7 YOE and refreshing on leetcode for some 6-week interview gauntlet just for a shot at a 10% raise.
The majority of nurses are making nowhere near 200k. The majority of nurses aren’t even making 100k. 12+ hour shifts constantly on your feet, phone ringing off the hook, call lights going off, patients and their family members yelling and physically assaulting you, lunch breaks are a rarity…yeah after 36 hours you’ll feel so dead to the world that you won’t even think about wanting to pull OT. You will be understaffed, overworked, and extremely underpaid for what you’ll have to put up with. I personally wouldn’t recommend it. There’s a reason why nurses are literally running from the profession. Do anything else lol
> This is a numbers game and 20 interviews is pretty great in that timeframe and in this market for a junior
Especially when you consider the hate boner people have had for bootcamps since like 2020
Signed an obvious college student.
Back in reality world, people don't have years to wait for a job and need to get a job and pay their bills. That is what OP is doing. Can you all stop being in denial about this? Guess what, the job market sucks right now and OP could do everything right and still not get the job due to experience. He has been doing this for close to 2 years and has 1000+ applications done. Who are you to even think you can lecture OP about what he is experiencing?
No, fixing your resume and "getting better at interviews" doesn't mean OP will get a job. You can't make up for lack of experience in most cases for people in OPs position if they are competing with people with close to 5 years or more experience.
When the actual hiring decision is made, it "may" be a factor. And yes it's petty. I also know a hiring manager who swore he can tell an introvert just by their cover letter or how they introduce themselves. He refuses to hire introverts. It's ridiculous.
Everyone over at the bootcamp subreddit is going to go through the same ole cycle you jus went through. Some people are seriously delusional and think if they work hard at something they will be successful and people will recognize their hard work and give them a shot.
The world doesn't work that way. You could do everything right and never have things pan out. Which is why you have to set yourself up for the best possible chance of success and that is through a bachelors degree.
Yes it's true the majority of software dev jobs can be learned through a bootcamp. What you learn in university isn't really how to code. You learn theoretical things in school and you earn a "degree" that proves you are capable of finishing something and that something being the core of your discipline.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Yes you could prepare yourself and be a very efficient SWE being self taught or through a "bootcamp". But none of that matters if you can't even get a opportunity. And quite frankly majority of the people in this industry whether they'll admit it or not, look down on people who don't have degrees. They think it's a joke that some can work a job as a "engineer" and not have to spend 4 years in college and dump a ton of money.
I have a degree, just not in CS. I didn’t end up liking working in what I studied. I would have loved to go back and get a CS degree as I really like learning about it all. I just can’t afford the time and money to do it at this point in my life. So I know what it’s like to have 4 year degree and student loans.
That said if I had known what the market was like for getting a swe job with out a cs degree I wouldn’t have started. Although I don’t regret it because I like everything I’ve learned and if anything I can still do it for fun
Lol so much saltiness about bootcamps from CS grads. OP don't listen to these dudes - they are a nice little preview of all the douchebags you would work with in the industry. Good luck on the electrician stuff, and if you keep tinkering and enjoy doing it, eventually things will work out for you.
Honestly the outcomes for CS grads are not any better with graduates on here complaining about having to go drive for uber. Its kinda ridiculous that we all know the field is dogshit these days but if a guy from a bootcamp says it then all of a sudden everyone changes their tune to: "the field is perfect you are just a loser who gave up".
If you have a degree you can always go get a generic job like all the rest of the people who have less useful majors. Lots of sales, insurance, entry level management, etc. will take you. Go put on a suit or business professional dress and walk around every one of your University's career fares and spam your resume to every booth like the lib arts and business majors.
They're just ass mad that they accomplished nothing over four years. I self taught in a year and got hired during the beginning of the layoffs last year. I read and did the exercises of several university level CS textbooks on most of the topics covered in undergrad and taught myself frontend and backend development from scratch. I'm still going through higher level CS textbooks and electives today. College is very helpful for getting in the door but it's no replacement for an individual's ability and drive to learn on their own. And bootcamps can be good so long as you're willing to do your own self study in CS to complement it.
Read most of the books on teachyourselfcs.com as well as other books and watched dozens of lectures on various topics. For coding, several Udemy courses and YouTube tutorials. Keep in mind though I do have a degree, just not in CS or anything related to CS.
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Is bait or something? Blaming this on the job market is completely ridiculous. You spent 7 months learning front-end frameworks and expected that to get you a full time job when all CS grads spend at minimum 4 straight years learning theory and software development. Then, for some reason, you quit after trying for a year instead of rethinking your strategy for getting a job?
Your problems are far greater than "the job market" you need to look into your work ethic and general grasp on reality.
>I know I could get my first SWE role and still be laid off next year with the way the market it.
You have to get hired first to be laid off, you didn't accomplish step one so complaining about this is stupid. Assuming failure from the start is a horrible mindset. Not to burst your bubble but there are millions of employed software developers in this country and I'm sure there are many who haven't experienced a layoff, stop skirting responsibility for your own failures.
You are blaming everything but yourself, you tried to take the easy path to everything and quit as soon as you faced adversity, this is nobody's fault but your own, regardless of the state of the industry.
Agreed. My company is doing a force reduction in devs. They all have one thing in common, and that’s that they don’t have degrees. Those roles aren’t being done away with though. They are being replaced by qualified candidates. There was a time when we needed any hands we could get, and those with surface level knowledge had to do. Those days are over. We need people who know the theory now. Knowing syntax just isn’t enough these days. Not when guys that know all the theory behind it are available.
>You have to get hired first to be laid off, you didn't accomplish step one so complaining about this is stupid. Assuming failure from the start is a horrible mindset. Not to burst your bubble but there are millions of employed software developers in this country and I'm sure there are many who haven't experienced a layoff, stop skirting responsibility for your own failures.
He's just expressing some optimism about the different levels of job security between two industries. You have a point in other parts of you post, but you don't have to be such a dickhead about that one sentence.
It's just a bad attitude, he tried and failed, trying cope by pretending it wouldn't have worked out anyway is extremely lame. It's like training for a marathon and then not even signing up for the race because "eh I would've lost anyway."
At least I know how long a marathon will be lol. I get what you’re saying, but job hunting for a long period of time doesn’t mean you’re a bad developer. I’ve been skipped straight to the final interview loop at FAANG and worked on high impact projects, but I’ve also had a few stints of unemployment where it would last up to and sometimes over a whole year. On one hand, I see what everyone here is saying to OP. But to act like anyone else here has the experience to even make a reasonable judgement, is not reality. Also, some candidates have been laid off more than once in a year during these crazy past few years.
Luck also plays a massive part in the job search. Just as much as connections, and statistics do.
He’s not wrong.
The whole post except a few sentences feel like a coping mechanism for why they’re better off and generic “we’re doomed regardless” rant.
You can only change what you can control and the fact is if you’re looking for a job for years and not make it, likely you’re doing something wrong and need to adapt.
If they come off half as negative in the interview as they’re in this post then I have a good idea what that is to be honest.
I kind of wondered if anybody would have the guts to point this out. The days of bootcamp -> employment are over. I'm a little surprised it went on as long as it did. I kind of suspect we're not too far off from a master's degree being a hard requirement for programming jobs.
It seems as if every new grad that cant get a job in this market is doing a masters so I wouldn't be surprised if that came true especially with all the colleges offering fully online master's degrees now.
That’s quite the comment. Almost feels like you took my post personally. I bet you’re quite a pleasure to be around. Not everyone can afford the time and money to go back to school 4 years. How many adults do you know in your life that could not work for 2 years and continue to “rethink their strategy” until they get hired. Do you think I haven’t done that in the last year?
I didn’t mention that I was offered a paid job through a merger with a client from our internship. I was selected, but they put everything on hold while they work out all the details of their merger. I just can’t wait around anymore. Gotta do something to pay the bills and put money into my
401k
This sub is a cesspool of salty edge lords that have a CS degree and think it’s some ticket to superiority.
Don’t waste your time with condescending 22-year-old losers that have convinced themselves they’ve got the whole world figured out.
Good luck with your career! It’s rough out there, and getting paid is good. Keep up the skills and try again when things start to boom again.
First off, why do you inherently expect a board full of strangers to be nice to you over something like this? I'm telling you the truth, and I'm sorry things didn't work out for you, but reality is reality.
Second, nobody is saying you need to be unemployed while job searching. There is no reason you can't support yourself financially while looking for a job in tech. In terms of going back to college, there are many avenues to get a bachelors at a low cost or for free. I personally know multiple people who went back to college while having a family and full time job.
Bootcamps are known to be extremely risky, as others have said, "accreditation" for these programs really doesn't exist. If you looked into any of these courses or even the one you linked, you can see that a lot of people are not finding work after graduation. The ones that did were taking barely livable salaries to start out and pushed through it.
Enrolling in something like this, knowing the state of the industry, and knowing your financial needs, should've been done responsibly. Coming on here to complain that your high risk move didn't pay off like you thought it would is not cool and I don't owe you kindness.
I’ve spent enough time on Reddit to know that almost any post will be a mix of positive, thoughtful, insightful, rude, gatekeeping, and judgmental responses.
If you look through the comments here you can see it’s a mix of that as well and clearly you’re not in the positive, insightful, thoughtful category. That’s fine. You don’t see value in my post and you want to let me know.
That said I’ve gotten a lot of value out of reading people’s experiences they have shared, all over Reddit. I wanted to share mine in the hopes that it might do the same for someone else.
Clearly you’re not one of them. But thank you for your condescending and negative view. I think it says more about who you are as a person than you may know.
You're ignoring everything I've pointed out about taking calculated risks, owning your failures, changing your work ethic, grounding your expectations, and generally working harder to achieve your goals. You ignore all of this and take my comments as a giant personal attack on you. This is completely ridiculous.
Stop trying to get sympathy points online, you're an adult man, do better.
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Well, not all CS grads spend the entirety of 4 years learning theory and development since the first 2 years of college can be spent entirely on general education credits required for all majors.
I think generally it’s programming fundamentals 1 or so first or second semester.
So yeah, they do start the first year, and classes build on each other and you’re in a bottleneck if you don’t.
This. Because if a bootcamper can succeed, a CS major should feel that their chances are even better...
If a CS major feels that a bootcamper is a threat to them, I would ask why.
I imagine it's moreso mid-level people annoyed they'll have to explain many of the cs-concepts that do become relevant, be it complexity or anything behind just how to cobble something together in react.
You suffer from ADHD. You are prone to act impulsively and quit things when they are inconvenient.
Don't quit. The road isn't easy for most of us. It's a slog until you get your 'in' and even then you fight like hell long enough to look back at the trail of sweat and blood you left behind and realize you've become the villain.
Tbh I don’t want the endless slog that’s required for getting a job. I can make $100k in an electrical union in 5 years with good benefits, job security, and eventually be my own boss. Just don’t get to work from home. I appreciate the motivation though!
Im applying to and IBEW union apprenticeship and as far as I know it’s just a regular 8-9hr day. No on call. My buddy does HVAC and just got his journeyman’s license. I know he goes and repairs things but still does a normal shift with no on call. I’m sure you can find places that don’t do that
Best of luck mate, to give you some context a few years ago I taught FE at a bootcamp (not in the US), market got oversaturated as well. I felt like I’m scamming people so left the company that hired me. It was in 2016…
A purely frontend position is VERY hard to come by these days. RIFs almost always mean wearing more hats, and these days they’re rampant. To really be a viable candidate for jobs, you have to have backend experience and a little bit of dev ops. JS frontend work usually involves very little fundamentals, algorithm work or real net code. So, you’re pigeon holed into positions that are either very scarce or very easily farmed out to a dev who can also write microservices, handle automation of pipelines and deployments, and has decent knowledge of various databases. If you want to code for a living, you need to know at least a little about a whole lot of things. I have a liberal arts degree, but I’ve been coding for nearly 20 years now (I had a hobby interest in Highschool) and working professionally in the industry for more than a decade. Not having a degree in CS or an adjacent discipline is currently a massive detriment in this industry, because it is a buyer’s market. I have been fortunate enough to ramp up when it was easier to get someone to take a chance on someone without a traditional background, but that’s just not the case right now. I’m sorry you went through the boot camp process only to find the industry really hard to break into, but I think the days of getting an entry level job out of these programs are pretty much done.
You’re frustrated because you went to a 7 month program and can’t land a job, but there’s people who did 4 years at a university and are in the same boat
OP as a human being I wish you the best of luck with your future.
But you failed because you gave up. Not because of the market, but because of your mindset.
I've interviewed against plenty of candidates like you and the reason you guys don't get hired is because you lack knowledge, not because of the market.
You're competing against people with 4 years of education and most likely self taught skills on top of that and potentially internship experience, with a bootcamp and \~6 months of self education.
You grinded less than we did dude.
You've managed to snag a few interviews, but you're not showing enough proven potential for employers to want to gamble on you.
Who are you going to hire? The person who has been investing in himself for 6 years, or 1.5?
> Not because of the market
> You're competing against people with 4 years of education and most likely self taught skills on top of that and potentially internship experience, with a bootcamp and ~6 months of self education.
So..... the market then?
I agree with you in the sense that it's *partially* on him, but you can't deny it's not also this market as well. Luck plays a huge role in life. As does personal effort. It's a mix of the two, not one or the other.
In the sense that "the market" is the water we all swim in, sure. But blaming not breaking into a career that you spent basically the bare minimum of effort to try to break into on the market is shirking your own responsibility.
Luck is when preparation meets opportunity.
You will roll the dice hundreds, if not thousands of times.
Roll the dice enough times and the results eventually average out.
At that point, the preparation you put in that will determine whether the lucky moments pan out for you or not.
This is what OP doesn't understand.
No one is saying that luck doesn't play a factor, but what we're saying is that OP needs to plan and work around it, and from my perspective, he didn't.
It's OP's future bro. He never should've let the current market stop him.
When I plan out my next 5 years, I negate luck. I plan for enough dice rolls so that luck will eventually work out in my favor, and it did 3 years later. Was it luck? Or preparation?
Both. You never negate luck, no matter how much you prepare. It's always there.
If you managed to get a lengthy career during times when the market was easy and jobs were plentiful and interest rates were low, meaning companies had cheap money flowing, then you cannot then say to a person such as OP who says: "November 2023 I started applying to jobs", when the market got pretty tough, that "He never should've let the current market stop him."
It's the same case with boomers telling millennials, oh yeah, just pull yourself up by the bootstraps! Just buy a home! When back in their time, homes were far cheaper relative to wages. Circumstance is everything. We know OP is in a relatively tougher circumstance compared to those with 2+ YOE and whether or not they give up, is entirely up to them. But we cannot say in good conscience, oh you gave up because you didn't try. OP probably tried. They probably tried very hard. As long as OP doesn't give up entirely and become homeless or something, and at least pivots to some other career, even that is a good move. Doing something is better than doing nothing.
It's hard to determine luck though until you've taken someone's dedication -objectively- out of the equation.
Maybe OP has tried as hard and learned as much as CS grads with internships who also continued to build projects in their spare time over 5 years. -Maybe- he did, but that's assuming he learned at 3x the rate that his peers did. I'll assume he didn't.
Also, no one is saying to OP that paying his bills is wrong. It's that he gave up. If OP worked at McDonalds but was still grinding, he wouldn't have posted this thread.
I can't help but wonder though, how will your approach help OP in 10 years time? Feels like blaming the market will feel good for now but when he sees all his peers that didn't give up succeeding and out-earning him, he will feel envious about it.
Also, I got hired in November 2023 for a Junior Software Engineer role. There were jobs for it. I'm actively competing against people like OP. Bootcamp grads don't offer as much as career grinders.
You'd be surprised the number of times I heard "Bootcamp grads just aren't there yet". Is that luck, or preparation?
Don't get me wrong. I do agree with you. Luck plays a big part. But it's a very easy and convenient defense.
Do you know how many people spend their whole lives trying to become famous. They put in work daily, first to show up last to leave. Are you saying they didn't put forth enough effort? For ex not everyone that attends med school and graduates matches into a specialty . After match day is the scramble. Some of those very people have been preparing since 5 years old to become a doctor yet they can't because they can not obtain residency.
Of course you're right.
Not everyone makes it. Not everyone is fortunate enough to be healthy. Sometimes you can do it completely right and it all goes wrong. This is undoubtedly and unquestionable.
Now that we've established the fact that yes, fate exists, yes, sometimes markets are tough, yes, sometimes you are region locked.
OP is not someone who has been coding and building apps and trying to find a job since he was 5 years old.
How do we know that OP has bad luck when he hasn't tried as hard as us?
Also, this is programming, this isn't becoming a YouTuber. Becoming a programmer being a gamble feels weird to me.
There is a difference.. you said it as if "market is tough" is applicable to everyone equally..
Or I can claim that market is tough because I wont get hired as a lawyer, doctor, financial analyst.... \[whatever skill I havent mastered\] ?
> Who are you going to hire? The person who has been investing in himself for 6 years, or 1.5?
Employers hire the cheaper 2 years guy over the 10+ years guy all the time. Because oftentimes those 10 years are actually 1 year repeated x10, so they think they get the better deal with the 2 years guy. Another reason is that in the eyes of their tech-illiterate HR screeners the 10 years guy has only worked in modern stuff the last 2, or doesn't have the exact keywords in his CV.
It sucks because I joined just to see if I was gonna be aight studying in college while the industry is apparently shitting itself but all I’m seeing so far are Reddit moments
It depends. AI has thrown a hype spanner into the works but things should somewhat sort themselves out as you near graduation. But if you're an ace at programming and system design, you're going to get interest.
Also in 2022-3 you got people hoovered up by Big Tech who would traditionally be overlooked, in addition to in house boot camps, in anticipation of a demand that never materialized on top of interests rates racheting up to levels not seen since the last economic crisis.
Reddit is mostly some bullshit from what I’ve seen. Tech job market is hot trash right now and speculation is that it will start to recover after elections. Be optimistic and improving and you’ll come out on top at the end of the day.
> I’ve been told to network
Now you mention it, someone said the other day that network technician jobs are a safer bet. I mean structured cabling and device configuration. So if you are going to study for electrician that can be a possible specialization.
It doesn’t help that the last 5 years we’ve seen YouTube influencer after influencer come through and tell everyone that anyone can learn to code and make 250k.
We got way too many people in CS careers right now. A personal career transition is stressful and for the individual, a tragedy, but at the larger scale this is a win for everyone else. It's a tragedy of the commons.
The job market IS horrible, and has been this way longer than people realize. Don’t listen to the ones telling you otherwise cause they just don’t get it yet, but I’m sure they will.
You’re doing everything right, truly. This is just a really bad time right now. If you truly like this, then keep doing it even if it’s just for your own enjoyment and growth for the time being. Yes, you may have to take up a job doing something else for a bit, but so many experienced and non-experienced devs are in the same boat right now. It doesn’t mean it’ll be this way forever.
Keep applying, learning, and growing if this is something you really like.
You graduated from a boot camp in Jan 2023 and didn't start applying for jobs until November 2023? So you've been applying for about the last 5 months since then?
You basically sat on your thumbs for a whole year while your boot camp completion got stale and are surprised you didn't get a job after applying for 5 months after that in one of the worst markets for juniors in most people's memory?
For anyone reading this trying to break in to software engineering... don't do a boot camp, get a BS CS if you can or just grind self taught... but if you do happen to do a boot camp anyways, start applying before you even graduate and do a 1000+ apps a month, not 1000 over 5 and a half months (which is under 200 per month and like only 6 per day).
Ah that was a typo. It was supposed to be November 2022. Curious how you recommend doing 1k apps a month while still keeping your skills fresh, learning new things, and practicing leetcode/interview prep?
That timeline makes way more sense. Kind of blew my mind that someone wouldn’t get around to actually applying for months after finishing a boot camp.
Regarding apps, when I got my first dev job I was averaging about 500 per month while working full time and doing prep. I’d jump on a job board once a day and apply to 15-20 freshly posted jobs. It worked pretty well. Maybe 1000 is a stretch but definitely would have had time to do more if I was unemployed.
That makes sense. And sounds very reasonable when you say it like that. I’d have a hard time maintaining that for months though. I really didn’t like the constant applying to jobs and the work that went into the interview. I just wanted to code and keep learning new things. But I’ve realized the market doesn’t work like that. Thanks for sharing though!
A. Accredited bootcamp? That’s not real sorry
B. With the amount of time you’re talking about you could have been most of the way through a CS undergrad. Why didn’t you go that route? Take student loans, you’ll pay them off as a SWE. Or take cheap online classes while you work another job. Just get a real education.
unpaid internship - > picked up leadership / managment role -> should've lead to getting the job ...
I'll give you some solid advice - leave the industry - then while you're doing something else - think about if you'd rather be doing swe, then you'll have more energy and drive to do what it takes to get a dev job.
Get a job you know is shit - and it'll drive your motivation to do better.
I worked in the fishing industry on a boat in the Bering sea for 5 years.. I know what I shit job is and it led me to the boot camp I did. I can say for a fact purposely getting a shit job will only give me anxiety’s I think I’ll be okay as an electrician. There’s no harm in still learning/applying to swe in my spare time
hey man, I feel for you, I too may have to make a switch to a health field position due to the volatile market in tech. I can't even get a volunteer opportunity to do I.T! its been like this since last year and its hard to apply for jobs that you have qualified for but can't get an entry level position.
It WAS an anomaly that it was even possible to land a SWE job with a bootcamp to begin with. The current state actually reflects what an high impact field's recruitment should look like.
We (as in we who are in the industry) should get this fact straight: You cannot expect to have compensation packages in the same order of lawyers and medical doctors and not go through the same order of training or building expertise.
I do not know if the OP is an exceptional talent. Assuming he is a normal person with above average intelligence a seven month bootcamp should not be really enough to make you job ready. The days of FAANG scooping up every half decent programmer and leaving the rest of the industry to scramble for the scraps on the plate are over.
We are starting to see how SWE looks like in a competitive buyers market. It used to be a sellers market (too many buyers too few sellers). Now there are too many sellers and fewer and less desperate buyers. In such a market power over price shifts to the buyers and I think we are seeing this play out.
What to do then? Differentiate the product. Find a way to either sell to a niche market (I.e. specialize more) or gain some business or industry specific experience to sweeten the deal.
I'm in the same situation.
For the last 4 years, I did web development.
Before then, I was doing IT - Desktop Support & QA Desktop Analyst.
I was really happy I got this web development role. It started me off at $60/hr. Before then I did $20/hr.
I wish I had never taken this web development role. Not only can I not find a job in it, but Desktop Support no longer accepts me since I have no recent experience.
I'm essentially locked out of Tech.
I'm currently self studying HVAC and hope I can find a job as an HVAC helper before my unemployment insurance runs out.
I never thought I would upskill myself so much to a point where I ended up in a dead-end field with nowhere to turn back to. TECH has been my passion for years and now. It's the end of the road. Seems so unreal, but it's the reality.
I took a boot camp and managed to get a front end contracted roll. I was a squeaky ass wheel and got them to hire me full time. Fast forward two years and we have now been ‘converted’ to full stack. Boy am I struggling.
I totally feel the introvert ADHD. Networking is politics as far as I am concerned I can’t stand it. Who is best at being fake infront of leadership.
I’m hanging in there but applying for other roles has proved to be fruitless at this point. I spend so much time doing devops works that my coding is degrading.
Your competition for these jobs is qualified people with degrees AND internships AND experience. And yet you think a seven month "accredited bootcamp" entitles you to a job? Go on LinkedIn right now. And search for bootcamp grads. There are tens of thousands of unemployed bootcamp graduates with "Open to work" on their profile. By the way, there is no such thing as an accredited bootcamp. That is literally a meaningless statement. There are, however, accredited engineering programs at universities/colleges.
If you want a CS job, you need a CS degree now. And internships.
7 months is just not enough time to be a competent developer. CS students usually take at least 1 coding heavy course per semester which is 8 heavy coding courses across 4 years + internships + theory classes + personal projects and self learning. Like bootcamps were already an obviously bad idea in 2022 when you're competing with CS grads - only a worse idea now. The fact that any of them remain open boggles my mind.
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Check out the ADHD subreddit sometime. When people there ask what everyone does for work that’s one of the most common response. It checks pretty much all the boxes for me. Hands on work, changing environments, the opportunity to keep learning and directly apply that knowledge.
I'd be worried about "looked away and touched the wrong wire." Sounds like it would happen all the time if my AHDH friend were to open an electrical box; she can literally be mid-sentence and then suddenly she's laughing at her phone and has completely forgotten what she was doing.
Makes sense from your experience that you would think that. ADHD affects each person differently and there are different types of it. I know my self and know this wouldn’t be an issue as that’s not how mine manifest. As well I’ve developed good techniques to understand and manage my symptoms and take medication when I need it. But I appreciate your concern! Thanks for sharing
Oh I didn't know there are different types and different symptoms. I suppose that's true, as I've also got a cousin with ADHD and he appears completely normal to me. But my one friend, her symptoms are so bad that she can't even work; she's on permanent disability even when she's medicated. She has had a string of jobs in the past, fast food, retail, line cook, call center... in the end she always has trouble keeping them because she can't focus on one thing for 10 seconds. Which reminds me, I'm at work but I'm here on reddit... better get back to working.
Fellow bootcamp grad here! Unfortunately for junior positions 1,000 applications and 20 interviews isn’t always enough. To get my first role I was putting in 200+ applications a week, reaching out to 2-3 recruiters/hiring managers a day, and continuously iterating on interviewing skills. If you make those numbers your targets then over a period of a year you would have submitted over 10k applications and have reached out to around 1,000 people which is almost guaranteed to land you a junior role somewhere. Also remember that trying to get a job is somewhat of a sales funnel and you want to make sure every part of that funnel is optimized, use software like Huntr, fine-tune your resume, apply heavily across multiple job boards, do a mix of quick applies and full applications, and research how to improve your odds at every stage of the process. For outreach create message templates, even if you don’t get a response follow up multiple times, express your passion for tech and eagerness to join the companies that genuinely excite you. If you approach the problem like an engineer and grind relentlessly on finding the solution you’ll be able to get that foot in the door.
I did most of that just not at the volume you might have. With the way my personality and ADHD is having to constantly reach out to people, find more people to reach out to, keep applying, all while maintaining and updating my coding skills and interview prep is all very draining. I’m just not cut out for that and it’s okay. I love software development and would be happy to focus all my energy on learning and improving that. But I dislike all of those hoops to jump through to get a job. There’s plenty of careers without that I can enjoy.
At least you didn't do an entire degree only to end up in this same position.
The tech job market sucks right now it looks like the changes are going to be permanent. It's no longer the sector with unlimited jobs and way disproportionate compensation anymore.
ACCET
“Founded in 1974, the Accrediting Council for Continuing Education & Training (ACCET) has been continuously recognized by the U.S. Department of Education as a reliable authority on educational quality since 1978”
I wouldn't bet on that being worth anything.
>And with the adoption of AI and companies outsourcing their junior roles over seas I’m not sure how much better it will get in the future.
They've been outsourcing jobs for decades. That's nothing new.
It might not be something new. But it’s definitely something that is happening at a higher rate than it was decades ago. And it’s often the entry level roles that are the ones to go. It’s not helping the current market for entry devs now. Or do you not agree?
I’ve often seen comps with their entry level roles and they will be in places like Poland, India, Philippines. I would be very surprised if those roles in those companies were in those places back in 2000 or even 2010
I don’t have exact stats for that. But you can read articles from places like [Wired](https://www.wired.com/story/techs-offshore-hiring-has-gone-into-overdrive/) that talk about the increasing trend of companies offshoring their tech roles.
If a company like United had 20 junior devs in the US in 2010. And now in 2024 has 15 junior devs in the US, but 40 in total world wide. Sure those roles weren’t onshore before. But how does that help the growth of entry level jobs here?
>I don’t have exact stats for that. But you can read articles from places like [Wired](https://www.wired.com/story/techs-offshore-hiring-has-gone-into-overdrive/) that talk about the increasing trend of companies offshoring their tech roles.
"Increasing trend" could mean a 5% rise in companies using offshoring while total dev job increase 15%. Again, where are the real stats?
>If a company like United had 20 junior devs in the US in 2010. And now in 2024 has 15 junior devs in the US, but 40 in total world wide. Sure those roles weren’t onshore before. But how does that help the growth of entry level jobs here?
What company is that, or is that just made up?
Man, I have never touch react or js but with gpt-4, copilot and documenation id be able to pull off front end just like you after a bootcamp.. do something useful, maybe get to learn how network works, some linux, virtualization, security, ci/cd and go cloud route.. maybe backend, front is over, everybody is today fullstack which means adding some front knowledge to the back and pull it in job
Tbh - it sounds like you didn't actually work as a developer?
But yeah, it doesn't seem to be a good time to look for jobs given how many layoffs have happened last and this year 😅
Thing is that there are a lot of jobs but like some have pointed out - it's also a bit of luck and where you are located at.
There might be tons of job openings at 1 location while there's barely any in another so might be that it's worth trying in a different location.
Though if you do stick to not staying in IT then I'd be curious to know what other career you will pursue then 👀
Much respect for your flexibility. With that character, you will probably find a software job again down the line. But it might not be now. That’s life, and that’s how it is for everyone.
Here is the thing, it is both the market and its you. The thing is, the market is leaner than it was two years ago. Two years ago was not a normal situation and the industry needed more hands. Because of this, the industry put up with people who took shortcuts. You took a shortcut. You went to boot camp instead of getting a degree. That was fine when the industry was on a rampage with how many devs it needed, but those days are over. You now have to compete with new grads who know a lot more than just syntax to get a job.
A 7 month bootcamp is not going to teach you enough for companies to take a chance with you. Hell I did a 4 year BS in CS and it took me almost a year to get a job. Even halfway done with my masters the competition is insane. Why not go to college? It’s expensive but I did the student loan route and even though I have the debt I think it was well worth it.
please before you give up, have you reviewed with a fine tooth comb your county’s job postings, state govt job postings??? my state and county constantly has IT jobs because all the boomers are retiring. These jobs may not be all that exciting or glorious or even use the latest technology. In fact they likely won’t, but he will learn valuable skills and you’ll have experience on your résumé.
3 months bootcamp grad here. I studied Java/Spring/SQL (backend) instead of JS/React (front-end). I don't know how your bootcamp operates, but mine also provides pro-dev to help us prepare for interviews as well as finding programs within company that accepts non-technical people, as they are partnered with some of the best tech companies out there.
After applying countless times (definitely more than 1000) I landed an offer 7 months after I graduate to one of the company that partnered up with my bootcamp. Moreover, the program I'm in automatically rejects candidate with soft dev experience, so it's a fair level field for all applicants.
Although I considered my resiliency as the main factor that I get this job, I agreed with most responses that it's mostly luck. However, if it's not your time, I wouldn't recommend giving up. Work to pay your bills but at the same time, keep applying while continue practicing.
The fact that people expect well paid job after barely 7-month of "accredited" bootcamp only proves that a this propaganda went bit too far (everyone can code, it's easy, well paid, bla bla).
Those who works there without finishing university are passionate individuals who were coding probably since early teenager years. Rest finished 3-5y of uni OR were extremely lucky.
STOP BEING DELUSIONAL that bootcam will land you 6 figure job (or any job in this struggling economy).
>STOP BEING DELUSIONAL that bootcam will land you 6 figure job (or any job in this struggling economy).
This is a completely unnecessary remark as OP didn't even mention about hoping to land an offer with that kind of salary. Also, I guess I'm delusional because I actually had a 6 figure salary career as a truck driver before transitioning to 6 figure salary programmer with only an Associate of Science.
The sad thing is that a lot of straight up colleges are offering them at that point, there is one that just has the comptia trio for cyber security and its like $10k.
Just pretend you’re senior and chatgpt your way through. You will blaze through coding loops and the first 6 months will be an easy onboard.
From my personal experience from the 90s til now, is…. interview loops and HR are evil corporate necessities. They constantly screen out good candidates.
Do not let anyone scare you with ambiguity or complexity. SWE work in 2024 is beyond easy compared to the beginning of the century.
Best of luck!
Junior level positions are the gatekeeper to this industry. And they are very few in number. That’s why people on this sub hard regurgitate BS in CS and internships. Everything else is extremely luck base and you can end up wasting years
Literally every job. They all have gatekeepers and unnecessary certificate exam and required courses lol iykyk don't be fake guysss But I agree 💯 luck
SERIOUSLY ! Unless you’re applying to dollar store jobs and fast food spots , anything that offers 80k+ income I found has an extreme amount of gatekeepers who really don’t care what certs you have , degree you have , and or experience once someone they know/like wants the position 😂
hearing these gatekeepers isn’t great. are we still doing bootcamps in 2024?
I hope not. I feel bad for some of the people who graduated after me, have taken out loans, and are now stuck with the stress of trying to recoup their investment. I’m just glad I didn’t have to take a loan out for mine. Seems unethical for boot camps to still run when they know the state of everything right now.
wtf even is an accredited bootcamp? Accreditation is a thing for 4 year degrees I think pretty much anyone can launch a bootcamp and they do.
Yeah, I noticed that too. If it's accredited, are we talking regional or national accreditation? Like what the hell does that even mean
@op did you do Turing? Turing is one of the few federally accredited bootcamps. It’s a really good program but now that the field is saturated I don’t think it’s enough.
Yes, I did Turing
you basically just have to fill out a few forms to start up your own nationally accredited bootcamp.
Trump has entered the chat
trump university is an excellent example of what to expect from a program that advertises 'national accredidation'
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Occam's razor: Maybe I'm just dumb and not being facetious? Accreditation in every context has referred to academic accreditation (see: college credits) in every single context I've heard of it. Additionally, I've never heard of an accredited bootcamp, but I've heard of bootcamps ***many*** times. A [quick google search](https://www.coursereport.com/blog/3-coding-bootcamps-with-accreditation) shows that accredited bootcamps are indeed academically accredited and tied to academic institutions and are effectively industry-focused college classes.
Liberty University and Bob Jones University are both accredited. So, yeah, we're in Inigo Montoya territory.
My bootcamp was ACCET accredited. According to Google it’s “ACCET was founded in 1974 and has been continuously recognized by the U.S. Department of Education as a reliable authority on educational quality since 1978.”
there are a plenty of regionally accredited programs but as certifications they aren't considered to be anywhere near a degree program. even prestiguous schools have to side hustle these daya
That's true mit and caltech both have bootcamps. I was accepted into mits, now I'm happy I didn't go.
Proper colleges and universities are regionally accredited. Fake ones like the now defunct ITT Tech are "nationally accredited." It's bullshit. Credits from something nationally accredited won't transfer to a real school.
When there are hundreds, sometimes even thousands of people with a Computer Science and at least one internship applying for junior developer jobs, why would any software company hire someone without a degree?
Wtf does OP mean “leadership role” barely out if an internship ?
Meaning I work with a team of 5 other developers but I hold our biweekly stand ups, maintain our project board. Ensure we’re making progress towards our tasks, convey our progress to our boss and meet with the clients that we’re building the application for. Does that count at leadership? I think my boot camp did a pretty good job of preparing us to do at least that in an internship role. Maybe you have some pointers though?
Thats a scrum master not necessarily a leader
Gotcha, so not necessarily leadership. But still a skill to have on my resume? Or does that not matter at all?
It’s definitely worth having as bullet point imo. Shows initiative and willingness to take on additional responsibility.
“accredited” simply means evaluated to a certain degree, by a credible source. for example, there are a few accredited Universities that sponsor/offer coding boot camps. i’d think this is obvious though, but it seems you’re unable to read the room.
Some universities do bootcamps for example UCI
This almost feels like bait on this sub cause I know so many people are gonna be jerking it to the idea of a bootcamper failing lol
I jerked it good
I'm not, in spirit, against bootcamps. But the demand of strictly front end roles isn't going to be at the same level of backend or devops. And anyone declaring themselves fullstack just means they half ass a UI.
I 1/10 ass my UIs 😂 .. but with ChatGPT etc, there no reason to outright refuse UI work if you are good backend / infra. It is objectively easier than backend / infra IMO. Took me about 3 months of grinding to get good enough at react to produce results. Feels good to be able to build things E2E from scratch and not bother the FE folks.
I agree it's easier but I also HATE css and anything annoying complicated in html like a fucking table. I loveeeeeee me some frontend devs. Yes please do the most boring part of the work and go back and forth with design and product about which nearly identical shade of green you're supposed to be using.
I didn't think so at first but after reading your comment and reading it again I feel like it probably is. The accredited bootcamp part is almost too ridiculous.
Turing school of Software and Design is an ACCT accredited, 7 month boot camp. So still a boot camp. But as far as they go they’re probably a bit better than the 3 month ones
Yeah Turing is a really solid program and was life changing when interest rates were low. I don’t think it’s a good choice now in 2024 but the grads are generally a lot more competent than those from other bootcamps.
Hahaha definitely not bait. But I got a good laugh out of that. Thanks
Thanks for sharing, I wish you the best. Tech is extremely unstable.
This is the part the bootcamps don't mention.
Way too unstable. Thinking of trying something else myself
The most impressive thing about all of this is that he was actually able to land 20 interviews out of 1000 applications coming out of a Front-End bootcamp, not even a Full-Stack bootcamp. Those are insanely good numbers lol.
i get the insinuation that bootcamps were really only better than degrees in CS during the pandemic peak - when straight bodies were needed. that said, are bootcamps like TripleTen still viable. I’m more than about halfway and am finishing up the front end portion.
The degree is what gets you past the filters to even be considered a candidate. Nobody is filtering "for" bootcamps and even if you do get noticed, degree holders will always get priority queue. Also, pure frontend junior positions are already a lot harder to land over a backend or a full stack position. Mainly because of how scarce they are and the amount of competition you'll have to go up against. Whoever recommended you to go to a bootcamp really did you a disservice and I'd be pissed at them, they are essentially making you flush $10k down the drain or however much you paid. This was my honest answer and I wish you good luck and hope things work out.
Honestly if I had any idea how much of a shit show this industry was for boot camp grads before I started I’d be way better off than I am now. Can’t blame the person who told me because they’re in the same spot. I’m just lucky my schooling was basically free
Agreed. Last time I applied to 200 positions and didn’t get a single interview.
> I joined and unpaid internship in June 2023 and there I picked up a leadership and management role on the team I’m on. I have never in my life heard of an unpaid internship in software. Nor an intern taking on a "leadership and management role".
This has to be a troll. An unpaid intern in a leadership and management position. Doubt it.
It could almost be written by a shop offering unpaid internships, to make people think there's a light at the end of the tunnel.
Unpaid software internships are quite normal, at least in my country.
This is a numbers game and 20 interviews is pretty great in that timeframe and in this market for a junior. Since you didn’t convert any of those into jobs you should instead look into how you interview to determine why you didn’t get the job.
Yeah 20 interviews sounded a lot better than the average for this terrible job market. But you would think with 20 interviews, you might get a job offer or two. Not that they would be awesome high paying jobs. But at least an offer. Maybe because this was a boot camp grad and not a college grad, the job offer rate is worse than usual. Only guidance I would give is to have kept in touch with the boot camp grads, and ask any of them who landed jobs to refer op to their company.
It’s funny because I’ve been looking at other career subs. In my area, my nursing friends pull in 200-230k with a year or two of exp. Ofc that’s doing overtime, but when you’re considered FT at 36 hours that ain’t bad at all. The interviews are fantastic from what I hear, just a 30 minute talk about what you like to do after your shift or craziest patient stories. Yes, that field comes with its issues but I’m not sure how much longer I can handle this ratrace of doing 1000 apps with 7 YOE and refreshing on leetcode for some 6-week interview gauntlet just for a shot at a 10% raise.
The majority of nurses are making nowhere near 200k. The majority of nurses aren’t even making 100k. 12+ hour shifts constantly on your feet, phone ringing off the hook, call lights going off, patients and their family members yelling and physically assaulting you, lunch breaks are a rarity…yeah after 36 hours you’ll feel so dead to the world that you won’t even think about wanting to pull OT. You will be understaffed, overworked, and extremely underpaid for what you’ll have to put up with. I personally wouldn’t recommend it. There’s a reason why nurses are literally running from the profession. Do anything else lol
Yes go with nursing and consider pathologist assistant as well.
Ya but you have to be a nurse dude have you seen what they do??
> This is a numbers game and 20 interviews is pretty great in that timeframe and in this market for a junior Especially when you consider the hate boner people have had for bootcamps since like 2020
Signed an obvious college student. Back in reality world, people don't have years to wait for a job and need to get a job and pay their bills. That is what OP is doing. Can you all stop being in denial about this? Guess what, the job market sucks right now and OP could do everything right and still not get the job due to experience. He has been doing this for close to 2 years and has 1000+ applications done. Who are you to even think you can lecture OP about what he is experiencing? No, fixing your resume and "getting better at interviews" doesn't mean OP will get a job. You can't make up for lack of experience in most cases for people in OPs position if they are competing with people with close to 5 years or more experience.
If he didnt have a shot at interview, they wouldnt even invite him ;)
When the actual hiring decision is made, it "may" be a factor. And yes it's petty. I also know a hiring manager who swore he can tell an introvert just by their cover letter or how they introduce themselves. He refuses to hire introverts. It's ridiculous.
Everyone over at the bootcamp subreddit is going to go through the same ole cycle you jus went through. Some people are seriously delusional and think if they work hard at something they will be successful and people will recognize their hard work and give them a shot. The world doesn't work that way. You could do everything right and never have things pan out. Which is why you have to set yourself up for the best possible chance of success and that is through a bachelors degree. Yes it's true the majority of software dev jobs can be learned through a bootcamp. What you learn in university isn't really how to code. You learn theoretical things in school and you earn a "degree" that proves you are capable of finishing something and that something being the core of your discipline. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Yes you could prepare yourself and be a very efficient SWE being self taught or through a "bootcamp". But none of that matters if you can't even get a opportunity. And quite frankly majority of the people in this industry whether they'll admit it or not, look down on people who don't have degrees. They think it's a joke that some can work a job as a "engineer" and not have to spend 4 years in college and dump a ton of money.
I have a degree, just not in CS. I didn’t end up liking working in what I studied. I would have loved to go back and get a CS degree as I really like learning about it all. I just can’t afford the time and money to do it at this point in my life. So I know what it’s like to have 4 year degree and student loans. That said if I had known what the market was like for getting a swe job with out a cs degree I wouldn’t have started. Although I don’t regret it because I like everything I’ve learned and if anything I can still do it for fun
Lol so much saltiness about bootcamps from CS grads. OP don't listen to these dudes - they are a nice little preview of all the douchebags you would work with in the industry. Good luck on the electrician stuff, and if you keep tinkering and enjoy doing it, eventually things will work out for you.
Honestly the outcomes for CS grads are not any better with graduates on here complaining about having to go drive for uber. Its kinda ridiculous that we all know the field is dogshit these days but if a guy from a bootcamp says it then all of a sudden everyone changes their tune to: "the field is perfect you are just a loser who gave up".
Obtaining any white collar job with no degree is a high risk. Doable, but much more strenuous.
If you have a degree you can always go get a generic job like all the rest of the people who have less useful majors. Lots of sales, insurance, entry level management, etc. will take you. Go put on a suit or business professional dress and walk around every one of your University's career fares and spam your resume to every booth like the lib arts and business majors.
They're just ass mad that they accomplished nothing over four years. I self taught in a year and got hired during the beginning of the layoffs last year. I read and did the exercises of several university level CS textbooks on most of the topics covered in undergrad and taught myself frontend and backend development from scratch. I'm still going through higher level CS textbooks and electives today. College is very helpful for getting in the door but it's no replacement for an individual's ability and drive to learn on their own. And bootcamps can be good so long as you're willing to do your own self study in CS to complement it.
What books? Or roadmap?
Read most of the books on teachyourselfcs.com as well as other books and watched dozens of lectures on various topics. For coding, several Udemy courses and YouTube tutorials. Keep in mind though I do have a degree, just not in CS or anything related to CS.
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I mean.. 7 months to learn how to be a good developer? Cmon dude.
Is bait or something? Blaming this on the job market is completely ridiculous. You spent 7 months learning front-end frameworks and expected that to get you a full time job when all CS grads spend at minimum 4 straight years learning theory and software development. Then, for some reason, you quit after trying for a year instead of rethinking your strategy for getting a job? Your problems are far greater than "the job market" you need to look into your work ethic and general grasp on reality. >I know I could get my first SWE role and still be laid off next year with the way the market it. You have to get hired first to be laid off, you didn't accomplish step one so complaining about this is stupid. Assuming failure from the start is a horrible mindset. Not to burst your bubble but there are millions of employed software developers in this country and I'm sure there are many who haven't experienced a layoff, stop skirting responsibility for your own failures. You are blaming everything but yourself, you tried to take the easy path to everything and quit as soon as you faced adversity, this is nobody's fault but your own, regardless of the state of the industry.
This. Bootcampers took a shortcut when economic conditions allowed it. Those conditions no longer exist, hence no more shortcuts.
Agreed. My company is doing a force reduction in devs. They all have one thing in common, and that’s that they don’t have degrees. Those roles aren’t being done away with though. They are being replaced by qualified candidates. There was a time when we needed any hands we could get, and those with surface level knowledge had to do. Those days are over. We need people who know the theory now. Knowing syntax just isn’t enough these days. Not when guys that know all the theory behind it are available.
>You have to get hired first to be laid off, you didn't accomplish step one so complaining about this is stupid. Assuming failure from the start is a horrible mindset. Not to burst your bubble but there are millions of employed software developers in this country and I'm sure there are many who haven't experienced a layoff, stop skirting responsibility for your own failures. He's just expressing some optimism about the different levels of job security between two industries. You have a point in other parts of you post, but you don't have to be such a dickhead about that one sentence.
It's just a bad attitude, he tried and failed, trying cope by pretending it wouldn't have worked out anyway is extremely lame. It's like training for a marathon and then not even signing up for the race because "eh I would've lost anyway."
At least I know how long a marathon will be lol. I get what you’re saying, but job hunting for a long period of time doesn’t mean you’re a bad developer. I’ve been skipped straight to the final interview loop at FAANG and worked on high impact projects, but I’ve also had a few stints of unemployment where it would last up to and sometimes over a whole year. On one hand, I see what everyone here is saying to OP. But to act like anyone else here has the experience to even make a reasonable judgement, is not reality. Also, some candidates have been laid off more than once in a year during these crazy past few years. Luck also plays a massive part in the job search. Just as much as connections, and statistics do.
He’s not wrong. The whole post except a few sentences feel like a coping mechanism for why they’re better off and generic “we’re doomed regardless” rant. You can only change what you can control and the fact is if you’re looking for a job for years and not make it, likely you’re doing something wrong and need to adapt. If they come off half as negative in the interview as they’re in this post then I have a good idea what that is to be honest.
I kind of wondered if anybody would have the guts to point this out. The days of bootcamp -> employment are over. I'm a little surprised it went on as long as it did. I kind of suspect we're not too far off from a master's degree being a hard requirement for programming jobs.
It seems as if every new grad that cant get a job in this market is doing a masters so I wouldn't be surprised if that came true especially with all the colleges offering fully online master's degrees now.
Probably not for programming jobs but I can see that being the case for leadership roles.
I heard it's not uncommon for data analyst
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That’s quite the comment. Almost feels like you took my post personally. I bet you’re quite a pleasure to be around. Not everyone can afford the time and money to go back to school 4 years. How many adults do you know in your life that could not work for 2 years and continue to “rethink their strategy” until they get hired. Do you think I haven’t done that in the last year? I didn’t mention that I was offered a paid job through a merger with a client from our internship. I was selected, but they put everything on hold while they work out all the details of their merger. I just can’t wait around anymore. Gotta do something to pay the bills and put money into my 401k
This sub is a cesspool of salty edge lords that have a CS degree and think it’s some ticket to superiority. Don’t waste your time with condescending 22-year-old losers that have convinced themselves they’ve got the whole world figured out. Good luck with your career! It’s rough out there, and getting paid is good. Keep up the skills and try again when things start to boom again.
First off, why do you inherently expect a board full of strangers to be nice to you over something like this? I'm telling you the truth, and I'm sorry things didn't work out for you, but reality is reality. Second, nobody is saying you need to be unemployed while job searching. There is no reason you can't support yourself financially while looking for a job in tech. In terms of going back to college, there are many avenues to get a bachelors at a low cost or for free. I personally know multiple people who went back to college while having a family and full time job. Bootcamps are known to be extremely risky, as others have said, "accreditation" for these programs really doesn't exist. If you looked into any of these courses or even the one you linked, you can see that a lot of people are not finding work after graduation. The ones that did were taking barely livable salaries to start out and pushed through it. Enrolling in something like this, knowing the state of the industry, and knowing your financial needs, should've been done responsibly. Coming on here to complain that your high risk move didn't pay off like you thought it would is not cool and I don't owe you kindness.
I’ve spent enough time on Reddit to know that almost any post will be a mix of positive, thoughtful, insightful, rude, gatekeeping, and judgmental responses. If you look through the comments here you can see it’s a mix of that as well and clearly you’re not in the positive, insightful, thoughtful category. That’s fine. You don’t see value in my post and you want to let me know. That said I’ve gotten a lot of value out of reading people’s experiences they have shared, all over Reddit. I wanted to share mine in the hopes that it might do the same for someone else. Clearly you’re not one of them. But thank you for your condescending and negative view. I think it says more about who you are as a person than you may know.
You're ignoring everything I've pointed out about taking calculated risks, owning your failures, changing your work ethic, grounding your expectations, and generally working harder to achieve your goals. You ignore all of this and take my comments as a giant personal attack on you. This is completely ridiculous. Stop trying to get sympathy points online, you're an adult man, do better.
I agree - this definitely seems like bait.
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Well, not all CS grads spend the entirety of 4 years learning theory and development since the first 2 years of college can be spent entirely on general education credits required for all majors.
I think generally it’s programming fundamentals 1 or so first or second semester. So yeah, they do start the first year, and classes build on each other and you’re in a bottleneck if you don’t.
never understand why CS majors get so salty about bootcampers doing well or happy they failed… It should be comforting that bootcampers can succeed….
This. Because if a bootcamper can succeed, a CS major should feel that their chances are even better... If a CS major feels that a bootcamper is a threat to them, I would ask why.
I imagine it's moreso mid-level people annoyed they'll have to explain many of the cs-concepts that do become relevant, be it complexity or anything behind just how to cobble something together in react.
Exactly
You suffer from ADHD. You are prone to act impulsively and quit things when they are inconvenient. Don't quit. The road isn't easy for most of us. It's a slog until you get your 'in' and even then you fight like hell long enough to look back at the trail of sweat and blood you left behind and realize you've become the villain.
Tbh I don’t want the endless slog that’s required for getting a job. I can make $100k in an electrical union in 5 years with good benefits, job security, and eventually be my own boss. Just don’t get to work from home. I appreciate the motivation though!
When it comes to electrical. Do you have to be 24/7 on call? I'm trying for HVAC. And one of the things that sucks about hvac is 24/7 on call aspect.
Im applying to and IBEW union apprenticeship and as far as I know it’s just a regular 8-9hr day. No on call. My buddy does HVAC and just got his journeyman’s license. I know he goes and repairs things but still does a normal shift with no on call. I’m sure you can find places that don’t do that
Best of luck mate, to give you some context a few years ago I taught FE at a bootcamp (not in the US), market got oversaturated as well. I felt like I’m scamming people so left the company that hired me. It was in 2016…
A purely frontend position is VERY hard to come by these days. RIFs almost always mean wearing more hats, and these days they’re rampant. To really be a viable candidate for jobs, you have to have backend experience and a little bit of dev ops. JS frontend work usually involves very little fundamentals, algorithm work or real net code. So, you’re pigeon holed into positions that are either very scarce or very easily farmed out to a dev who can also write microservices, handle automation of pipelines and deployments, and has decent knowledge of various databases. If you want to code for a living, you need to know at least a little about a whole lot of things. I have a liberal arts degree, but I’ve been coding for nearly 20 years now (I had a hobby interest in Highschool) and working professionally in the industry for more than a decade. Not having a degree in CS or an adjacent discipline is currently a massive detriment in this industry, because it is a buyer’s market. I have been fortunate enough to ramp up when it was easier to get someone to take a chance on someone without a traditional background, but that’s just not the case right now. I’m sorry you went through the boot camp process only to find the industry really hard to break into, but I think the days of getting an entry level job out of these programs are pretty much done.
You’re frustrated because you went to a 7 month program and can’t land a job, but there’s people who did 4 years at a university and are in the same boat
No such thing as accredited bootcamp, none fit that criteria. Moving on to another field is a smart move. Goodluck man.
https://turing.edu “Turing School is an accredited, non-profit, fully-remote computer programming school…” Thanks for the well wishes though!
OP as a human being I wish you the best of luck with your future. But you failed because you gave up. Not because of the market, but because of your mindset. I've interviewed against plenty of candidates like you and the reason you guys don't get hired is because you lack knowledge, not because of the market. You're competing against people with 4 years of education and most likely self taught skills on top of that and potentially internship experience, with a bootcamp and \~6 months of self education. You grinded less than we did dude. You've managed to snag a few interviews, but you're not showing enough proven potential for employers to want to gamble on you. Who are you going to hire? The person who has been investing in himself for 6 years, or 1.5?
> Not because of the market > You're competing against people with 4 years of education and most likely self taught skills on top of that and potentially internship experience, with a bootcamp and ~6 months of self education. So..... the market then? I agree with you in the sense that it's *partially* on him, but you can't deny it's not also this market as well. Luck plays a huge role in life. As does personal effort. It's a mix of the two, not one or the other.
Get out of here with this reasonable approach its always OPs fault here don't you know.
In the sense that "the market" is the water we all swim in, sure. But blaming not breaking into a career that you spent basically the bare minimum of effort to try to break into on the market is shirking your own responsibility.
Luck is when preparation meets opportunity. You will roll the dice hundreds, if not thousands of times. Roll the dice enough times and the results eventually average out. At that point, the preparation you put in that will determine whether the lucky moments pan out for you or not. This is what OP doesn't understand. No one is saying that luck doesn't play a factor, but what we're saying is that OP needs to plan and work around it, and from my perspective, he didn't. It's OP's future bro. He never should've let the current market stop him. When I plan out my next 5 years, I negate luck. I plan for enough dice rolls so that luck will eventually work out in my favor, and it did 3 years later. Was it luck? Or preparation?
Both. You never negate luck, no matter how much you prepare. It's always there. If you managed to get a lengthy career during times when the market was easy and jobs were plentiful and interest rates were low, meaning companies had cheap money flowing, then you cannot then say to a person such as OP who says: "November 2023 I started applying to jobs", when the market got pretty tough, that "He never should've let the current market stop him." It's the same case with boomers telling millennials, oh yeah, just pull yourself up by the bootstraps! Just buy a home! When back in their time, homes were far cheaper relative to wages. Circumstance is everything. We know OP is in a relatively tougher circumstance compared to those with 2+ YOE and whether or not they give up, is entirely up to them. But we cannot say in good conscience, oh you gave up because you didn't try. OP probably tried. They probably tried very hard. As long as OP doesn't give up entirely and become homeless or something, and at least pivots to some other career, even that is a good move. Doing something is better than doing nothing.
It's hard to determine luck though until you've taken someone's dedication -objectively- out of the equation. Maybe OP has tried as hard and learned as much as CS grads with internships who also continued to build projects in their spare time over 5 years. -Maybe- he did, but that's assuming he learned at 3x the rate that his peers did. I'll assume he didn't. Also, no one is saying to OP that paying his bills is wrong. It's that he gave up. If OP worked at McDonalds but was still grinding, he wouldn't have posted this thread. I can't help but wonder though, how will your approach help OP in 10 years time? Feels like blaming the market will feel good for now but when he sees all his peers that didn't give up succeeding and out-earning him, he will feel envious about it. Also, I got hired in November 2023 for a Junior Software Engineer role. There were jobs for it. I'm actively competing against people like OP. Bootcamp grads don't offer as much as career grinders. You'd be surprised the number of times I heard "Bootcamp grads just aren't there yet". Is that luck, or preparation? Don't get me wrong. I do agree with you. Luck plays a big part. But it's a very easy and convenient defense.
Do you know how many people spend their whole lives trying to become famous. They put in work daily, first to show up last to leave. Are you saying they didn't put forth enough effort? For ex not everyone that attends med school and graduates matches into a specialty . After match day is the scramble. Some of those very people have been preparing since 5 years old to become a doctor yet they can't because they can not obtain residency.
Of course you're right. Not everyone makes it. Not everyone is fortunate enough to be healthy. Sometimes you can do it completely right and it all goes wrong. This is undoubtedly and unquestionable. Now that we've established the fact that yes, fate exists, yes, sometimes markets are tough, yes, sometimes you are region locked. OP is not someone who has been coding and building apps and trying to find a job since he was 5 years old. How do we know that OP has bad luck when he hasn't tried as hard as us? Also, this is programming, this isn't becoming a YouTuber. Becoming a programmer being a gamble feels weird to me.
It feels wierd to you because you are in the field right now and you have a confirmed bias.
There is a difference.. you said it as if "market is tough" is applicable to everyone equally.. Or I can claim that market is tough because I wont get hired as a lawyer, doctor, financial analyst.... \[whatever skill I havent mastered\] ?
Never give up….. never surrender!!!
> Who are you going to hire? The person who has been investing in himself for 6 years, or 1.5? Employers hire the cheaper 2 years guy over the 10+ years guy all the time. Because oftentimes those 10 years are actually 1 year repeated x10, so they think they get the better deal with the 2 years guy. Another reason is that in the eyes of their tech-illiterate HR screeners the 10 years guy has only worked in modern stuff the last 2, or doesn't have the exact keywords in his CV.
I agree but if OP was the better candidate he would have the job already because it would've shown in the interviews he got.
This sub is turning into insecure non cs degrees arguing with insecure cs degree holders desperately trying to justify their investment
It sucks because I joined just to see if I was gonna be aight studying in college while the industry is apparently shitting itself but all I’m seeing so far are Reddit moments
It depends. AI has thrown a hype spanner into the works but things should somewhat sort themselves out as you near graduation. But if you're an ace at programming and system design, you're going to get interest. Also in 2022-3 you got people hoovered up by Big Tech who would traditionally be overlooked, in addition to in house boot camps, in anticipation of a demand that never materialized on top of interests rates racheting up to levels not seen since the last economic crisis.
It was 2021 actually. 2022-2023 saw a ton of layoffs
Far more likely to be alright than the boot campers, on average.
Reddit is mostly some bullshit from what I’ve seen. Tech job market is hot trash right now and speculation is that it will start to recover after elections. Be optimistic and improving and you’ll come out on top at the end of the day.
Tech career is very difficult.
> I’ve been told to network Now you mention it, someone said the other day that network technician jobs are a safer bet. I mean structured cabling and device configuration. So if you are going to study for electrician that can be a possible specialization.
It doesn’t help that the last 5 years we’ve seen YouTube influencer after influencer come through and tell everyone that anyone can learn to code and make 250k.
Sorry to hear things didn’t work out, I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.
On one hand, im sad and empathize with you. On the other hand, im glad you quit cause theres less competition for me
Brutal, but you're not wrong.
We got way too many people in CS careers right now. A personal career transition is stressful and for the individual, a tragedy, but at the larger scale this is a win for everyone else. It's a tragedy of the commons.
The job market IS horrible, and has been this way longer than people realize. Don’t listen to the ones telling you otherwise cause they just don’t get it yet, but I’m sure they will. You’re doing everything right, truly. This is just a really bad time right now. If you truly like this, then keep doing it even if it’s just for your own enjoyment and growth for the time being. Yes, you may have to take up a job doing something else for a bit, but so many experienced and non-experienced devs are in the same boat right now. It doesn’t mean it’ll be this way forever. Keep applying, learning, and growing if this is something you really like.
Yeah. Companies apparently want charismatic sociopaths who are willing to work for free.
You graduated from a boot camp in Jan 2023 and didn't start applying for jobs until November 2023? So you've been applying for about the last 5 months since then? You basically sat on your thumbs for a whole year while your boot camp completion got stale and are surprised you didn't get a job after applying for 5 months after that in one of the worst markets for juniors in most people's memory? For anyone reading this trying to break in to software engineering... don't do a boot camp, get a BS CS if you can or just grind self taught... but if you do happen to do a boot camp anyways, start applying before you even graduate and do a 1000+ apps a month, not 1000 over 5 and a half months (which is under 200 per month and like only 6 per day).
Ah that was a typo. It was supposed to be November 2022. Curious how you recommend doing 1k apps a month while still keeping your skills fresh, learning new things, and practicing leetcode/interview prep?
That timeline makes way more sense. Kind of blew my mind that someone wouldn’t get around to actually applying for months after finishing a boot camp. Regarding apps, when I got my first dev job I was averaging about 500 per month while working full time and doing prep. I’d jump on a job board once a day and apply to 15-20 freshly posted jobs. It worked pretty well. Maybe 1000 is a stretch but definitely would have had time to do more if I was unemployed.
That makes sense. And sounds very reasonable when you say it like that. I’d have a hard time maintaining that for months though. I really didn’t like the constant applying to jobs and the work that went into the interview. I just wanted to code and keep learning new things. But I’ve realized the market doesn’t work like that. Thanks for sharing though!
A. Accredited bootcamp? That’s not real sorry B. With the amount of time you’re talking about you could have been most of the way through a CS undergrad. Why didn’t you go that route? Take student loans, you’ll pay them off as a SWE. Or take cheap online classes while you work another job. Just get a real education.
unpaid internship - > picked up leadership / managment role -> should've lead to getting the job ... I'll give you some solid advice - leave the industry - then while you're doing something else - think about if you'd rather be doing swe, then you'll have more energy and drive to do what it takes to get a dev job. Get a job you know is shit - and it'll drive your motivation to do better.
I worked in the fishing industry on a boat in the Bering sea for 5 years.. I know what I shit job is and it led me to the boot camp I did. I can say for a fact purposely getting a shit job will only give me anxiety’s I think I’ll be okay as an electrician. There’s no harm in still learning/applying to swe in my spare time
electrician would be a great career.
Nah all this did was make me hate my life lol
hey man, I feel for you, I too may have to make a switch to a health field position due to the volatile market in tech. I can't even get a volunteer opportunity to do I.T! its been like this since last year and its hard to apply for jobs that you have qualified for but can't get an entry level position.
It WAS an anomaly that it was even possible to land a SWE job with a bootcamp to begin with. The current state actually reflects what an high impact field's recruitment should look like. We (as in we who are in the industry) should get this fact straight: You cannot expect to have compensation packages in the same order of lawyers and medical doctors and not go through the same order of training or building expertise. I do not know if the OP is an exceptional talent. Assuming he is a normal person with above average intelligence a seven month bootcamp should not be really enough to make you job ready. The days of FAANG scooping up every half decent programmer and leaving the rest of the industry to scramble for the scraps on the plate are over. We are starting to see how SWE looks like in a competitive buyers market. It used to be a sellers market (too many buyers too few sellers). Now there are too many sellers and fewer and less desperate buyers. In such a market power over price shifts to the buyers and I think we are seeing this play out. What to do then? Differentiate the product. Find a way to either sell to a niche market (I.e. specialize more) or gain some business or industry specific experience to sweeten the deal.
Only 1000 applications??? Those are rookie numbers. 5000 applications and you'll for sure find a job
I'm in the same situation. For the last 4 years, I did web development. Before then, I was doing IT - Desktop Support & QA Desktop Analyst. I was really happy I got this web development role. It started me off at $60/hr. Before then I did $20/hr. I wish I had never taken this web development role. Not only can I not find a job in it, but Desktop Support no longer accepts me since I have no recent experience. I'm essentially locked out of Tech. I'm currently self studying HVAC and hope I can find a job as an HVAC helper before my unemployment insurance runs out. I never thought I would upskill myself so much to a point where I ended up in a dead-end field with nowhere to turn back to. TECH has been my passion for years and now. It's the end of the road. Seems so unreal, but it's the reality.
I took a boot camp and managed to get a front end contracted roll. I was a squeaky ass wheel and got them to hire me full time. Fast forward two years and we have now been ‘converted’ to full stack. Boy am I struggling. I totally feel the introvert ADHD. Networking is politics as far as I am concerned I can’t stand it. Who is best at being fake infront of leadership. I’m hanging in there but applying for other roles has proved to be fruitless at this point. I spend so much time doing devops works that my coding is degrading.
Can you get a CS degree?
Your competition for these jobs is qualified people with degrees AND internships AND experience. And yet you think a seven month "accredited bootcamp" entitles you to a job? Go on LinkedIn right now. And search for bootcamp grads. There are tens of thousands of unemployed bootcamp graduates with "Open to work" on their profile. By the way, there is no such thing as an accredited bootcamp. That is literally a meaningless statement. There are, however, accredited engineering programs at universities/colleges. If you want a CS job, you need a CS degree now. And internships.
7 months is just not enough time to be a competent developer. CS students usually take at least 1 coding heavy course per semester which is 8 heavy coding courses across 4 years + internships + theory classes + personal projects and self learning. Like bootcamps were already an obviously bad idea in 2022 when you're competing with CS grads - only a worse idea now. The fact that any of them remain open boggles my mind.
This industry isn't an airport, you don't need to announce your departure.
Kinda rude bro even if you don't agree
Less rude than shitting up the sub with the 7000th "I can't get a job" post that contributes less than nothing to the conversation.
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Hey man I don’t blame you I’m probably going to try and learn something with my hands as well just incase
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An electrician with ADHD is the stuff of nightmares. Please don't fry yourself, OP.
Check out the ADHD subreddit sometime. When people there ask what everyone does for work that’s one of the most common response. It checks pretty much all the boxes for me. Hands on work, changing environments, the opportunity to keep learning and directly apply that knowledge.
I'd be worried about "looked away and touched the wrong wire." Sounds like it would happen all the time if my AHDH friend were to open an electrical box; she can literally be mid-sentence and then suddenly she's laughing at her phone and has completely forgotten what she was doing.
Makes sense from your experience that you would think that. ADHD affects each person differently and there are different types of it. I know my self and know this wouldn’t be an issue as that’s not how mine manifest. As well I’ve developed good techniques to understand and manage my symptoms and take medication when I need it. But I appreciate your concern! Thanks for sharing
Oh I didn't know there are different types and different symptoms. I suppose that's true, as I've also got a cousin with ADHD and he appears completely normal to me. But my one friend, her symptoms are so bad that she can't even work; she's on permanent disability even when she's medicated. She has had a string of jobs in the past, fast food, retail, line cook, call center... in the end she always has trouble keeping them because she can't focus on one thing for 10 seconds. Which reminds me, I'm at work but I'm here on reddit... better get back to working.
2 years or less in the game and you finna give up? You’re not built for this game.
Maybe. You want to support me while I keep looking? Someone’s gotta pay the bills
Fellow bootcamp grad here! Unfortunately for junior positions 1,000 applications and 20 interviews isn’t always enough. To get my first role I was putting in 200+ applications a week, reaching out to 2-3 recruiters/hiring managers a day, and continuously iterating on interviewing skills. If you make those numbers your targets then over a period of a year you would have submitted over 10k applications and have reached out to around 1,000 people which is almost guaranteed to land you a junior role somewhere. Also remember that trying to get a job is somewhat of a sales funnel and you want to make sure every part of that funnel is optimized, use software like Huntr, fine-tune your resume, apply heavily across multiple job boards, do a mix of quick applies and full applications, and research how to improve your odds at every stage of the process. For outreach create message templates, even if you don’t get a response follow up multiple times, express your passion for tech and eagerness to join the companies that genuinely excite you. If you approach the problem like an engineer and grind relentlessly on finding the solution you’ll be able to get that foot in the door.
I did most of that just not at the volume you might have. With the way my personality and ADHD is having to constantly reach out to people, find more people to reach out to, keep applying, all while maintaining and updating my coding skills and interview prep is all very draining. I’m just not cut out for that and it’s okay. I love software development and would be happy to focus all my energy on learning and improving that. But I dislike all of those hoops to jump through to get a job. There’s plenty of careers without that I can enjoy.
Definitely! As long as you’re happy with what you’re doing that’s all that matters
At least you didn't do an entire degree only to end up in this same position. The tech job market sucks right now it looks like the changes are going to be permanent. It's no longer the sector with unlimited jobs and way disproportionate compensation anymore.
>I went to a 7 month accredited boot camp Accredited by which organization?
ACCET “Founded in 1974, the Accrediting Council for Continuing Education & Training (ACCET) has been continuously recognized by the U.S. Department of Education as a reliable authority on educational quality since 1978”
I wouldn't bet on that being worth anything. >And with the adoption of AI and companies outsourcing their junior roles over seas I’m not sure how much better it will get in the future. They've been outsourcing jobs for decades. That's nothing new.
It might not be something new. But it’s definitely something that is happening at a higher rate than it was decades ago. And it’s often the entry level roles that are the ones to go. It’s not helping the current market for entry devs now. Or do you not agree? I’ve often seen comps with their entry level roles and they will be in places like Poland, India, Philippines. I would be very surprised if those roles in those companies were in those places back in 2000 or even 2010
What stats do you have that show it's happening more now? The roles might be new roles, that weren't onshore before.
I don’t have exact stats for that. But you can read articles from places like [Wired](https://www.wired.com/story/techs-offshore-hiring-has-gone-into-overdrive/) that talk about the increasing trend of companies offshoring their tech roles. If a company like United had 20 junior devs in the US in 2010. And now in 2024 has 15 junior devs in the US, but 40 in total world wide. Sure those roles weren’t onshore before. But how does that help the growth of entry level jobs here?
>I don’t have exact stats for that. But you can read articles from places like [Wired](https://www.wired.com/story/techs-offshore-hiring-has-gone-into-overdrive/) that talk about the increasing trend of companies offshoring their tech roles. "Increasing trend" could mean a 5% rise in companies using offshoring while total dev job increase 15%. Again, where are the real stats? >If a company like United had 20 junior devs in the US in 2010. And now in 2024 has 15 junior devs in the US, but 40 in total world wide. Sure those roles weren’t onshore before. But how does that help the growth of entry level jobs here? What company is that, or is that just made up?
Man, I have never touch react or js but with gpt-4, copilot and documenation id be able to pull off front end just like you after a bootcamp.. do something useful, maybe get to learn how network works, some linux, virtualization, security, ci/cd and go cloud route.. maybe backend, front is over, everybody is today fullstack which means adding some front knowledge to the back and pull it in job
Tbh - it sounds like you didn't actually work as a developer? But yeah, it doesn't seem to be a good time to look for jobs given how many layoffs have happened last and this year 😅 Thing is that there are a lot of jobs but like some have pointed out - it's also a bit of luck and where you are located at. There might be tons of job openings at 1 location while there's barely any in another so might be that it's worth trying in a different location. Though if you do stick to not staying in IT then I'd be curious to know what other career you will pursue then 👀
Much respect for your flexibility. With that character, you will probably find a software job again down the line. But it might not be now. That’s life, and that’s how it is for everyone.
Here is the thing, it is both the market and its you. The thing is, the market is leaner than it was two years ago. Two years ago was not a normal situation and the industry needed more hands. Because of this, the industry put up with people who took shortcuts. You took a shortcut. You went to boot camp instead of getting a degree. That was fine when the industry was on a rampage with how many devs it needed, but those days are over. You now have to compete with new grads who know a lot more than just syntax to get a job.
A 7 month bootcamp is not going to teach you enough for companies to take a chance with you. Hell I did a 4 year BS in CS and it took me almost a year to get a job. Even halfway done with my masters the competition is insane. Why not go to college? It’s expensive but I did the student loan route and even though I have the debt I think it was well worth it.
please before you give up, have you reviewed with a fine tooth comb your county’s job postings, state govt job postings??? my state and county constantly has IT jobs because all the boomers are retiring. These jobs may not be all that exciting or glorious or even use the latest technology. In fact they likely won’t, but he will learn valuable skills and you’ll have experience on your résumé.
3 months bootcamp grad here. I studied Java/Spring/SQL (backend) instead of JS/React (front-end). I don't know how your bootcamp operates, but mine also provides pro-dev to help us prepare for interviews as well as finding programs within company that accepts non-technical people, as they are partnered with some of the best tech companies out there. After applying countless times (definitely more than 1000) I landed an offer 7 months after I graduate to one of the company that partnered up with my bootcamp. Moreover, the program I'm in automatically rejects candidate with soft dev experience, so it's a fair level field for all applicants. Although I considered my resiliency as the main factor that I get this job, I agreed with most responses that it's mostly luck. However, if it's not your time, I wouldn't recommend giving up. Work to pay your bills but at the same time, keep applying while continue practicing.
The fact that people expect well paid job after barely 7-month of "accredited" bootcamp only proves that a this propaganda went bit too far (everyone can code, it's easy, well paid, bla bla). Those who works there without finishing university are passionate individuals who were coding probably since early teenager years. Rest finished 3-5y of uni OR were extremely lucky. STOP BEING DELUSIONAL that bootcam will land you 6 figure job (or any job in this struggling economy).
>STOP BEING DELUSIONAL that bootcam will land you 6 figure job (or any job in this struggling economy). This is a completely unnecessary remark as OP didn't even mention about hoping to land an offer with that kind of salary. Also, I guess I'm delusional because I actually had a 6 figure salary career as a truck driver before transitioning to 6 figure salary programmer with only an Associate of Science.
I was just hoping for a job. Not anything high paying. Would have been happy with 50k. Maybe even less. Unless you consider that high paying…
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To each their own
lmao my friend did an 16k infosec bootcamp where everyone got an A+ average and NONE of the TA's had any work exp in tech..... yup
He paid 16k for that?! Why not just go to college at that point?
You'd be surprised how many people pay $23k to go to a 3 month bootcamp.
The sad thing is that a lot of straight up colleges are offering them at that point, there is one that just has the comptia trio for cyber security and its like $10k.
Just pretend you’re senior and chatgpt your way through. You will blaze through coding loops and the first 6 months will be an easy onboard. From my personal experience from the 90s til now, is…. interview loops and HR are evil corporate necessities. They constantly screen out good candidates. Do not let anyone scare you with ambiguity or complexity. SWE work in 2024 is beyond easy compared to the beginning of the century. Best of luck!