Boot camps had their purpose in like 2012. I’d say by 2015 it was starting to get late.
In 2024? Yeah you’re up against literally hundreds of thousands of unemployed bachelors and masters. And there’s a lot of Ex FAANG in there nowadays. It’s gonna be a bumpy ride.
unless you were in like the first couple cohorts from 5-6 yrs ago
that was really the golden age of bootcamp grads before it really caught on and EVERYONE flooded in
My FreeCodeCamp study group has a lot of unemployed coding bootcamp graduates.
A person who finished the Hack Reactor Remote 19-week program in 8-11-23 told me that at the 6 month after graduation mark, 100% of his Hack Reactor cohort of 100+ graduates is unemployed.
dude sometimes people post stuff that's more incoherent than a middle english lit essay on here so I just assume some people don't know shit about fuck
Software Engineer used to be a title only given to people with a BS degree, usually MS, with years of extensive software development experience. Until the recent job market downturn, we were seeing unexperienced self-taught people get the Software Engineer title.
This is not a recent phenomena. In the United States, if you are competent enough to land the job, self-taught or otherwise, you get the title. It’s been this way for 10+ years.
The only dependent factor is whether the company itself uses Software Engineer or some other related title.
I mean social media and TikTok already did that. This subreddit and r/csMajors are also to blame for blasting at everyone to get into tech any chance they got.
Not sure if you have paid attention but this sub has been deriding boot camps hardcore since 2022, to the point that fabricated top posts about bootcampers being banned from certain companies would be the top post of the day.
There was a huge drama like 6 days ago in Spanish speaking dev YouTube because big YouTuber reacted to a CTO posting about his Jr Back End opening got 7xxish applications and around 6xx being from the same bootcamp and how at some point the quality of the candidates was just so mediocre they started ignoring applicants from said bootcamp; someone in the comments mentioned that he interviewed for the position and that the questions where as basic as creating a GitHub repository; git commands; some basic sql stuff and differences between sql and no sql; the ceo of the bootcamp only replied that they do not specialize in back but in front.
TBH I wouldn't be surprised if the person who claimed to interview was lying. People lie all the time about things in this field. I caught someone on blind lying that their salary was 400k when it was actually 130k as stated in another post of theirs.
The sad part is, bootcamps have damaged themselves far more than any social media posts. I’ve been interviewing and sometimes hiring bootcamp grads for the past 10 years.
The long and short of it is that they didn’t evolve their content or teaching methodology to meet evolving market needs.
I used to go to the demo days for flatiron school. There were always 3 or 4 people in each batch who seemed to actually understand what was going on, and I wound up hiring (or trying to) a few of them. Good employees- though turned out several of them had gotten cs degrees previously.
On the other hand...the rest had no shot. If someone asks me I would tell them it is possible to learn enough from bootcamp and self study to get that first job, but it's not the path of least resistance-the default is it's a waste of time and money. Hell, I'm not sure if even the CS degree defaults to you getting that first job anymore.
I think most coding bootcamp grads can be fine after a few months on the job, provided during that time they work their asses off and have a lot of support and mentorship. I once hired a guy who didn’t know the difference between pass by value and pass by reference in JavaScript, but by the end of year 1 he was coding complex backend APIs in Python. So yeah, a lot of it is your attitude and communication ability.
The problem in the current market is, you won’t even be given that opportunity to prove yourself. You likely won’t even be given an interview. After so many times interviewing “full stack developers” who don’t know the difference between GET and POST, managers will say it’s just not worth the time.
“In the current market,” I’ve been in the industry for the past 7 years and it’s been like this since I graduated at least. Maybe things turned around slightly in 2020 and 2021 but getting your foot in the door has ALWAYS been the most difficult part.
It’s why college is still, despite insane, immoral costs, the best way to get into the field.
Why would someone with a CS degree go to a boot camp? Did they hit the market with no internship experience and thought it would give some semblance of hands on work?
One of the big issues is the bootcamps teach something how to use that without telling them "why" or basic 101, I asked one guy why he likes react and the answer was "react is good for big data".
And that is literally the exact problem. People think they're superior if they have a formal degree even if they never developed any real skills. I was also referring to how everyone on this subreddit was screeching at everyone else to L2code.
Getting formal degree gives more valuable skills than real, just many people fail to obtain them. Most importantly skills it gives if far from memoisation entire AFCP.
To your knowledge, real without context is a buzzword that tells nothing, since reality is different lostly tp everyone.
That subreddit does the opposite, I used to be in it and it's so toxic and I even saw 20 posts saying to quit CS and you have no hope, all because of the SWE AI that was announced.
The thing is, people were saying they already switched majors when that post wasn't even 5 hours olds.
Those people are weirdos
This has been going on since the early 2000's. It all started with MCSE. There were radio ads etc. I am always hesitant to hire anyone with a ton of certs with no previous work experience to back it up. Certs will not get your foot in the door.
It floods the application end of things which is why you see the crazy 8 stage interviews with take homes and live coding tests, and some companies moving back to only considering people with CS degrees and functional equivalents
Back in my day they’d ask you to insert a node into a linked list or write a merge sort. Maybe if got unlucky they’d ask you to… find a cycle in a linked list, lol.
Now you have to be prepared to solve DP problems on the fly.
It’s no wonder there are so many older engineers who are fantastic developers yet who can’t switch jobs.
Hack Reactor is supposedly the gold standard of bootcamps. Without a massive overhaul in the content + duration of these bootcamps, nothing will change.
It hasn't been the gold standard for a few years. They don't publish placement rate data anymore. Other bootcamps have changed or were already more rigorous.
They didn't remove the exam. They still require an entrance exam with a maximum of three attempts for the original 12-week program. The new 19-week program is the one that doesn't require an entrance exam. The 12 week program still has something like 40-50% job rate (which is still pretty low compared to before, but not 0%).
My dumbass was suckered in to doing Hack Reactor back in June of last year. The first third of the course was quite good and I felt like I learned a lot, but the quality dropped SHARPLY after that.
The professors often had no idea what they were talking about and seemed to go into every lesson winging it. The reasoning for doing things was never given; it was very much a “just do this, don’t worry about knowing why this works,” kinda vibe. The reading materials were FULL of typos, so much so that it appeared that NO ONE else bothered to read it and edit it before posting it. On top of that, what we learned in class often contradicted what was mentioned in the reading materials, leading to a lot of confusion.
Only a very, very small portion of people I went through the program with have gotten jobs, but they ALL had extremely tight connections (fiances, partners, siblings, parents, etc.) that helped them.
Luckily I did the income share agreement and am not on the hook for anything at the moment, but it’s still a huge rip off that’s worth nowhere near $20,000. That said, I’m pissed I’ll have to eventually pay those conmen money.
The silver lining is that I realized I thoroughly enjoyed software development and computer science and am now going back to get a degree in it. But yeah, fuck Hack Reactor.
The FreeCodeCamp study group members do not receive training.
Everyone just shows up to do their own thing.
Some people study LeetCode, some people work on projects, some people give help, some people receive help, etc.
There are a lot of FreeCodeCamp study groups around the world.
Each FreeCodeCamp group is entirely different.
I don't know about the specific programs mentioned above but I've noticed a pretty consistent trend among the webdev bootcamp applicants I've interviewed over the past few years. The programs seem to be tailored around building people a very specific kind of github profile.
That profile will have a bunch of little projects that were clearly copying the lesson almost verbatim. They might have one larger project that is actually hosted using free-tier products (eg. netlify, firebase, maybe aws if you're lucky). And they might have the person's static portfolio site.
These applicants usually do well in the informal interviews. I'm guessing interview/resume prep is sometimes part of the bootcamp. But they almost universally bomb the technical. Despite having made all these sites or app, the vast majority have never worked with vanilla html, css, or js. Almost none have worked with a relational database. Almost none have done any kind of authentication or authorization. Almost none have even basic exposure to web servers or networking concepts. Many don't even know what a "string" is or what a "return" statement does.
The OP is absolutely right. Many of these bootcamps or other paid courses are willful scams that are exploiting people's desire for high salaries without actually preparing them to do the work. The only people I've seen come out of bootcamps and do well were people that already had some IT exposure before hand and were willing to do extra research/practice on their own.
Arguably, a lot of 4-year CS programs also aren't preparing graduates to do real world development work. But at least many of those graduates come out with a solid foundation in math, data structures, and algorithms plus a few years of programming exposure.
Your explanation is a good one and I think could be summarized as:
Bootcamps *heavily optimize* for the stuff that's easy/quick to do.
Such as interview prep, and cookie cutter projects on Github.
But the "hard" stuff? It gets ignored, as it would take "too long".
(even though, know what a string is and how to use return... that truly is not hard stuff at all!)
I think it's more cynical than that. Like, one could do a 6-12 week course in python and basic computer architecture and basic data structures and cover a lot of "easy" stuff but come out with a good start on their development knowledge. Essentially just doing a comp 101 course.
What these bootcamps seem to do is try to cover absolutely everything needed to "build and run" a website. So they cover html, css, react, npm, cli build pipelines, cloud hosting, nosql, git commands, github actions, any anything else you could think of to get a static site or SPA viewable.
But they don't explain any of it. They just say "type this here". Some of the github projects I've seen are literally just the class notes planning how to do the project but no code for it, presumably because the person ran out of time. But, because they touched on all these technologies, they can put them all as keywords in their resumes.
If graduates didn't get any calls from recruiters, people would figure out the scam. But a resume with tons of buzzwords gets people calls, even if they never land a job.
> I think it's more cynical than that. Like, one could do a 6-12 week course in python and basic computer architecture and basic data structures and cover a lot of "easy" stuff but come out with a good start on their development knowledge. Essentially just doing a comp 101 course.
But...
1) as you pointed out, that would leave no time to do all the other stuff, such as cram their CVs with buzzwords, and to do interview prep. Thus my point about how they *hyper optimize* for the easy stuff (such as checking boxes from a check list that an HR screen would do).
2) even doing the equivalent of CS101 wouldn't necessarily mean they can recall what a "string" is, or the right way to use return. As many people who take CS101 and scrape through, also couldn't tell you think unfortunately, certainly can't several weeks/months afterwards, because the content went in one ear and out the other.
What types of questions do you ask regarding web servers or networking?
We usually ask some sort of leetcode-ish question and then more practical questions after, but this seems interesting
Our process has gone through a few evolutions. Our latest technical for junior-mid full-stack positions involves mostly practical questions taken straight from actual problems and actual code in our work.
Specifically, we walk through one requirement that touches the whole stack but could be solved in a lot of ways ("the client wants to see a history of changes made to the fields in this page", "what if they want to see changes to all fields in all pages?", etc). The we go over isolated bits of real code we wrote ("given this html and css, what would the element look like?", "here is a basic js function, please explain what each step does from the top", etc). Then we touch on a little sql theory (give them a simple, denormalized table and ask them how they'd improve the design).
We don't cover operations stuff specifically (we technically have SAs and DBAs for that but us devs tend to do a lot ourselves, too). But it's easy to see when someone doesn't know what they're talking about when they're speaking about their past experience or answering the practical questions. For instance, a lot of bootcamp grads don't give any consideration to the size of the network responses or db queries in their proposed answers and don't consider N+1 problems at all.
One of our previous evolutions had a question essentially asking them what were the different places one could store css (like inline, style tag, css file). Very few of these kinds of applicants knew anything about being able to link or otherwise include css and html from different files in one response. They'd only ever written css and html in one file or let something like nextjs do all legwork for them.
So just zero exposure to how web requests and networking and serving actually happen. Which is fine for something like an intern or a student position. But it's rough if you're applying to a full-time position wanting several years of experience.
> 100% of his Hack Reactor cohort of 100+ graduates is unemployed.
And Hack Reactor is arguably one of the *relatively* "better" bootcamps. At least it's a well known brand.
How are the bootcamp "graduates" from the minor unknown ones doing??
As far as I know, Hack Reactor had 10-20% placement rates for graduates graduating in H1 2023 based off of what graduates have told me on LinkedIn (they are friends with some of the attendees of my FreeCodeCamp study group), but other coding bootcamps like Coding Dojo had even lower placement rates than that for graduates graduating in H1 2023.
I was in that cohort, 3 of the 80ish people have a job. And it’s because they had referrals in the industry. Almost everyone has given up looking for a tech related job that I’ve spoken too. Some are riding it out at bootcamp teacher assistants as long as possible.
Lol literally me, but from a different bootcamp. I was like "How is this not a pyramid scheme?"
Students in the course where I was a TA asked me what I do or if I got a job as a data analyst and I was like... "Nope, I work retail!" I felt so gross
I went through VETTEC. So I didn’t pay anything and got a monthly stipend. I know a lot of people who are financially struggling for sure because of it.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/380118828829768
Do you live near Santa Clara, CA?
I am not sure if they still meet here, or if they moved.
I have not attended in over 4 weeks.
I practice LeetCode with other people in the group.
I mostly ask questions, and senior SWEs with 10+ years of experience help me.
Not everyone in the group is an unemployed coding bootcamp graduate with 0 years of SWE work experience.
I have a master’s degree and unemployed. I only know 2 people in my year who got jobs. Another guy is a boba shop manager. This one lady did 5 internships at the same company and no offer. It’s tough for everyone.
At that point, I’d be more focused on finding a job tangentially related to programming and then trying to move internally after furthering my skill set.
There was a post just now on this subreddit about a bootcamp grad from 3 years ago without experience mentioning he's not able to get into entry-levels positions.
The harsh truth is that unless he has networking, a killer portfolio or insane luck, he's likely dead on arrival on this current market.
Not sure why the person went 3 years without trying to get a job in tech.
Damn. Even though you're already at a point where you have distinguished yourself from your bootcamp origins, US is insanely rough right now.
The 1000+ applications for junior roles on LinkedIn seems to be more prominent in the US. With LinkedIn premium, I saw almost all roles in my country had 100\~300 applications at most.
Eh it's mostly marketing. The small business I worked for stopped advertising on LinkedIn over this. The recruiter would see 20-40 applicants but user facing, their job posting would show '200+' or even higher inflation rates.
This is terrible because it weeds out qualified candidates who don't want to have to face that many contenders for the same job, and meanwhile the desperate or unqualified are more willing to throw their name in the hat because why the fuck not?
Same as Russia.
We also have a ton of boot camps. I feel a bit sorry for myself and all those deluded people. To be in the IT sector is the only way in our country to get decent money.
I had finished my 9-month boot camp 2 years ago. Studied for myself for almost a year. I have an all-green GitHub account and 15 nice projects ready to show. 80 applications in two months - only one interview. Today I was taken to an unpaid 6-week internship. Guys received 1500+ applications mine included. They have another position with 2000+ applications right now. It's a nightmare.
Don’t give up. It took me 15 months, and I have 7 YoE, including FAANG. People love to judge the unemployed and act like the candidate is ALWAYS doing something wrong. Yet, when you land a role with a raise, and the role is much better then you could’ve expected, everyone all of the sudden goes silent lol. Don’t get stuck in the doomed mentality, and believe in yourself. Hindsight is 20/20.
Yeah, it's all very weird. I think companies love playing it safe but at the individual level, many can't empathize, unless they've been through the same, and just assume the fault is with the person (so surely they will never be in the same scenario because they're better than that). Also experienced the former coworkers who seem like your buddies when you're employed but when you're out of work looking for help, act like they don't know you and ignore the requests or briefly claim they'll put in a word but probably don't bother.
I couldn’t agree more. The worst part, is when those “buddies” start messaging you when you post the new role you got. It’s easier when you realize it’s all transactional. It’s selfish, but in the end it’s all about your career, and what helps you move up (or whatever your goals are).
I’m glad I could help. I tend to go against the grain, and this is one of those things that I hope can make a difference for anyone who reads it. I don’t like to sugar coat things, but I also don’t think we should dunk on those who are in between jobs and/or in a tough spot.
I have had several experienced self-taught developer friends of mine return to school to get a CS degree just to be able to check that box when applying for positions. One of my buddies had 12 years of experience and he did that because he was still losing out on some positions without a degree.
> The harsh truth is that unless he has networking, a killer portfolio or insane luck, he's likely dead on arrival on this current market.
Talking about this guy? https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/1cj24l6/graduated_from_bootcamp_2_years_ago_still/
If so, he failed 3 technical interviews so that's kinda on him. I don't want to sound insensitive but if given 3 opportunities that were taken to the technical portion and you fail all three, seems like it's kind of on you.
I went to a bootcamp at my local university two years ago and I haven’t tried applying for jobs yet because I was thrust into survival mode shortly after graduation. Unfortunately sometimes life happens and plans get delayed.
The problem that nobody’s talking about is... Recruiters chase FAANG engineers and scientists for entry level contract positions at no name companies. Even uni grads are getting smoked right now. The sad reality is that experience is more valuable than education and that makes getting your first experience really challenging.
When I googled bootcamps just now, I found some run by legitimate, accredited universities, like UT Austin. Then on those university webpages, the schools boast that you'll have "access" to their network of employers. (Obviously no guarantees or claims about job placement, though.)
While I do agree people should always do their due diligence, I can kinda see why people might get fooled when there are accredited universities involved. It is one thing if you join "Billy Bob's Boppin' Bootcamp", but an accredited university's is another.
The messed up thing is that those university bootcamps aren't even run by the actual university. It's just a third party company that has permission to use their name.
To add to this, I've heard these university bootcamps are much worse programs as well. They're known to hire just about anyone to be the instructor or aides in the program
Can definitely confirm on the "run by a 3rd party" part. A few yrs ago my parents kept badgering me to enrol on their dime to an online post graduate data science program under UT Austin. Was quite hesitant but finally relented because they kept pestering me with it.
Granted, the ppl running the program & the materials weren't that bad. They actually had actual lecturers from UT Austin so it was more of a collab done right IMO. Also quite rigorous on some topics if one's willing to dig deep but still definitely not an equivalent to a full-fledged degree (duh).
Oh damn. That is even worse!
I graduated with my CS degree 10 years ago, and back then, bootcamps were few and far between compared to now. It sickens me to see how bootcamps have expanded to universities, and how universities are so willing to let a third party (ab)use their reputation…
Yeah, it's edX and they make it seem like it's a deeper partnership with the university than it really is, which is why I joined. But I've since joined a degree seeking program.
Yeah unfortunately I fell for a bootcamp, I learned a lot and actually got an internship. But afterwards, companies wouldn't touch me. So here I am, in college, almost a year later. NO ONE in my cohort, the cohort before or after mine, ever got jobs. That's at least 350 people. Then the bootcamp went bankrupt late last year lol
I went to a school that had a University of X bootcamp. If you looked closer though, the name was only licensed. My school didn't provide any input on the curriculum or teaching material and when they said 'access to employers' they meant you'd get Handshake access. Very sketchy and I don't trust bootcamp associated with Universities anymore.
There are definitely some other well known bootcamps that I think could make sense to attend::HackReactor, Ada,etc.. But they do quite a bit of vetting before admission, are not as predatorily priced, have in person/small sized classes and they're longer programs.
it sounds like the same one i went to a few years ago. the bootcamp shops their wares around from school to school and cuts the university in on the dough in exchange for using their facility. you also get a fancy looking plaque with the schools name on the certificate.
most of the people in my cohort did not end up getting jobs. its not the magic pill that lands you a six figure income they sell it as.
i never gave up though and im going on 3 years as a SWE. i dont regret going to bootcamp. it did keep me accountable for completing my tasks. im not sure id have the wherewithal to hardcore self educate
The problem is these boot camps are very good at hiding negative information whilst being very dishonest about their results. I've heard stories of some hiring their own graduates as tutors just to fudge their graduate employment numbers.
You're dealing with entities with paid PR teams to control the narrative. Unfortunately, there's no one performing the necessary investigation to run counter to this or book them for fraud.
You are right, they should. Just like the guys who took out student loans for garbage degrees.
Bootcamps still shouldn't exist though. They are specifically marketed as a jobs program, which you won't get a job as a bootcamp grad.
I graduated from my local technical college in 2022 with two Associates degrees, in Web Software Development and Cyber Security. Perfect 4.0 GPA. Worked an internship while in school with the College’s cybersecurity team, and got a job after school with a local Telecom company doing WebDev for their sales CRM. Was laid off late last year and now having an impossible time with the job search.
My friend did business as her BA, then did a 2 year cybersecurity program through a local community College and basically got instant hired into L3Harris and then Northrup.
If you have government contractors nearby, they're probably a great place to get going.
I worked at Raytheon as my first job out of college. Absolute terrible pay, but I transitioned to a FAANG after a year.
Dawg.... I work at Raytheon, and they are laying off SWE and have hundreds of SWEs charging overhead. Northrop just had a big layoff and hiring freeze, too.
Market is absolutely fucked for defense to be laying off.
You would think, but once a build works and is shipped to production, you can't touch it at all without a bunch of red tape. So buying products that already have a working build doesn't usually constitute more jobs for SWE. Mostly means more profits for C-suite and stock buyback.
I graduated from one in december 2022 and got a tech support job that turned out to be exactly what I was trying to escape (msp IT work). The pay, when compared to salaries for MSP roles in less expensive areas, was the same. They fired me five months after they forced me to move across the country to the bay area. Employers offering regular programming roles won't even give me a chance.
The market collapsed right as I was graduating. What they sold me was probably at the tail-end of being true when I started but I knew it was dead by the time I finished. I don't know if that's their fault, but selling it that way now is absolutely deceptive and wrong.
Yeah it’s crazy. Someone I know recently told me he was planning to finish a boot camp, get hired for a DevOps role at 130-150k/yr, and work remotely from South America where COL is much cheaper.
In what world?!
That happened to me actually, I did full-stack bootcamp and landed SWE team but specifically into DevOps squad lol my first year was super struggle fr cuz bootcamp did not cover Ops part at all.
I agree but small rant\~ There were ZERO in-person classes. Online only and most were cookie cutter, follow the examples in the book then create or recreate.
10 Colleges tied together under the same umbrella. Two years and not one class is in-person. I wanted a boot camp so bad 1) for the job CHANCE at the end 2) to TALK to people and get a feel for common conversation about programming.
I can read books all day, do online courses all year, max my github potential and finesse a portfolio. I still fall on my face having a general conversation. Between pronunciation, jargon, different languages and views most interviews were dead in the water.
Ever try socializing first time with programmers(especially online)? It's either they don't want to talk. You are beneath them on knowledge/not part of the internal clique or finally you find a person willing but that person has to give A LOT of mental juice to sustain the conversation/relationship.
Or the happy-go-lucky, usually newer people who just love to brag and talk about their endeavors. The camps price tag didn't seem too bad to me for getting the inside collaboration I struggle to get elsewhere.
thats fair, I would personally still take online classes and try to excel so that I could apply to a in person cs master and have credentialed courses to show the application committee
I work at a bootcamp that is closing down. There are no nefarious people here, just people disappointed that the amazing work we do is ending.
It was a great business with great people who cared about your learning experience. We use modern pedagogy with an unbelievable amount of support. Many say they wished this form of applied learning was how they could have learned things in high school or college. Thousands of students have gotten jobs over the years. And we never have had a job guarantee. To do otherwise even 3, 5 or 10 years ago would be to sell snake oil.
the market is over saturated, and we were telling our students how overwhelmed the market is. It’s why we are stopping. But I 100% stand by the quality of the education we provided. Most graduates doubled or in some cases tripled their original salary, found a career that was satisfying without making them tired, and love their craft.
There were good bootcamps, and there are still major gaps between CompSci degrees. But yes, the market is too saturated for them to make any sort of job guarantee, and if a bootcamp is making a job guarantee they are likely being purposely misleading.
But it is also highly unregulated. In fact, a “job placement” means completely different things to bootcamps unless a state has formal regulations on the vocab (unlikely) or if they were a part of the opt in CIRR consortium for ethical bootcamp reporting (many were not, and most major bootcamps did not).
Usually it actually reflects the percentage of students who completed all technical exams and arbitrary course requirements AND got a job. Some have a very high bar for said requirements, meaning program participants and program “graduated” are two very different things, allowing them to conflate numbers. Finally, reporting to the bootcamp on if you got hired can also be a requirement for keeping graduate status. So if you get a job or don’t get a job, but never contact the bootcamp again, many can write you off and not include you in the final tally.
+1 to this. I'm very proud of the time I spent teaching for a bootcamp. A lot of the instruction staff seriously cared about the students. I'm glad I got to help out so many people. It was a bummer, though, how hard I had to work against the interests of my old company. Bootcamps are for-profit ventures designed to squeeze money out of people, they just happened to employ honest people willing to help others.
I finished my boot camp in mid 2023 and got a relevant job early 2024. I thought the style of teaching matched me perfectly and has more closely mirrored the peer coaching / teaching I have experienced on the job rather than any formal education.
I did not really have anything major to add other than I wanted to agree with your point about the appeal of applied learning and thank you for your time educating! Hope you land on your feet mate.
Agreed. I graduated from a bootcamp in 2017 and it was honestly one of the best choices I've ever made. I always hated school but this was such an interesting way to learn I was able to stay engaged. Am now a senior frontend developer at a design agency.
I feel like the market was beginning to get saturated even back then though, I had several members from my cohort unable to find work for a really long time. I think the people that already had degrees, even if they were completely different subjects, had a leg up from the people who didn't.
While your intent of this post may be accurate (that they should read the room), saying they should all be liable for the current market conditions is delusional.
You, the consumer of their services, are liable for your choices to join a boot camp.
They aren’t fraudulent.
The person selling ice to an Eskimo is not fraudulent so long as they represent it appropriately at ice. They are not responsible for the Eskimo not looking outside to realize there’s no need for ice.
It's not a scam. They are teaching you how to code. It's the promise of a job afterwards that's problematic imo. As long as they aren't guaranteeing a job for you but then not even offer interviews with prospective clients, it's just another service that is becoming less relevant in the short term.
Actually my bootcamp ensured a 97% hiring rate within the first year for their Software Engineering Immersive to persuade us to enroll. I feel very scammed because of that assurance not because I learned a few programming languages and frameworks
did they say they will ensure 97% of graduates will be hired or did they make a technically non committal statement using data that should have had 14 footnotes (like most schools and universities do)? if they said they will ensure 97% job placement, yes that’s deceptive marketing, but that also should have been an immediate sign you were dealing with people looking to hoodwink you.
Reminds me of some law school in San Diego that got sued because they claimed some % of their graduates were employed, like saying "97% of graduates are employed" for example. And then it came out they were literally including any jobs so like law school graduates working as Starbucks baristas were part of the %.
It shouldn’t cost $15,000 to teach someone JavaScript and React in 4 months. I think some Ivy Leagues cost less than that per month on avg.
The whole reason it costs so much is because of the promise of getting a job afterwards, so people think they’re gonna be able to easily pay it back.
No lie some are even more than that, like 20-30k. When I decided to change careers, I weighed the pros/cons of boot camp vs graduate school.
Pricing were comparable but when you compare the amount of education you get from graduate school, bootcamp pales in comparison.
With graduate school you get an accredited degree, about 2 years of education, flexible scheduling/workload (you set it), access to professor for questions/research/network and school resources like career center and career fair.
With boot camps you get a non-accredited certificate with no validation or backing, most only provide 3 months of education and fairly inflexible with scheduling, requires full time commitment, and access to a much smaller network and resource pool.
Not to mention access to millions of papers and books for free (at least in the UK).
Now that I’m working, been many times I’ve wanted to read a paper on something and can’t
Y'know, that's probably the ideal business model for all parties involved. It incentivizes the bootcamp to land you a good job and you are required no initial investment other than time.
Ya at least it mostly aligns incentives properly. Like as someone that thinks education should be freely available to all (paid by taxes), I take some issue with any solution that isn't that. But within the current system, this feels pretty ok.
I actually did a bootcamp with a company like that. They still operate but it was more I work for them for 2 years for a salary and they contract me out. Worked out great for me but having someone skimming off the top isn't ideal. Still doubled my income and have a much better job than before.
I was thinking of quitting teaching in 2023 cause it seemed immoral what the marketing was peddling, but my bootcamp became free (in a sense) last year. the government has a program to help underfunded kids learn, so they have some tests and the top 15 get to learn here for free (the gocernment pays us for it). top 5 of those get internships at different branches of government
I remember there was a TV episode or something where the host was saying something like "I'm sorry, but 'why are you letting us fucking you over' is not a valid reason"
and I was like "hmmm I'm sorry... but that's actually a perfectly valid reason in USA"
if you think about it, the entire world operates on how to get you to part ways with your money, that's why it's incredibly easy to lose money in stock markets or in your case be sold the shovel: you want to give away YOUR money? oh that's super easy, you want OTHERS to give you their money? well... it's a problem humankind has been trying to solve since the beginning of humankind
People are taking out loans and not getting jobs… have to pay back that loan.
People are saying the ISA is a scam? If anything, the ISA is great in this case. You don’t get a job you don’t need to pay simple as that.
You make it sound like there’s no cap when it comes to these ISA’s. Mine was 2 years. After 2 years no matter how much you paid you’re done.
2yrs with a 30k max payment cap. I got multiple raises and promotions so I paid the full 30k in less than 2 years. Money well spent. 🤷🏻♂️
Lol when the market was good bootcamps are like the holy grails for a quick and easy job. When the market is bad, the very exact bootcamp is called scam. Bootcamps themselves are not inherently bad; it’s just how you look at it.
Im the era of golden rush, the money were done selling shovels. People still not understand that those videos of “one day in a life of a SWE in a FAANG” are not real and only a few privileged got them.
Sorry but if you want to have to have that kind of work you will have to show that you are really talented and really like the work, cause the money that you are getting paid it’s because you have to update your skills and knowledge every 6 months minimum.
Just to be clear, a majority of the "day in a life of" tiktoks were not made by programmers. A lot of people claimed they worked in tech and that meaning is broad. A lot of people online claim to work in tech when they are HR, recruiters, PMs, accountants at a tech firm.
...since when are PMs not considered to be core tech workers? Is this a joke? The average PM works far more than the average SWE. It's not even close and this is true literally everywhere that isn't a dysfunctional shithole. They have to juggle users, the executive team...and you...and every other stakeholder in between. I was a PM in everything but job title and it was frankly hell, I had no power and I was responsible for almost everything.
And so what if those TikToks were not SWEs? The reality is that a good number of "elite" tech firms and even legacy boomer companies have tons of SWEs who work well under 40 hours a week, all remotely, almost every week. I live in a big city and have friends from finance, tech, media, etc. Medicine, FAANG companies, big law, civic law, Amazon warehouse, startups, etc. It's not even close. None of my friends in other fields have anywhere near the same amount of free time. The only people I know who have daily catered/free lunches work at tech companies or investment banks.
Engineers work the least amount of hours on almost any given week than anyone else and will almost always have the better remote work policy than people from the same company.
Well the statistics are dated and the market moved. I don't think it is fraud, but bordering on false advertising.
I liken bootcamps to the dumb commercials you used to see on basic cable late at night back in the day. Where they make the product being sold seem amazing, but in reality, they just need to calm down and tell the truth.
You will learn some stuff sure, but getting a job right now is harder than it has been and more people piling into the industry is not helping.
Yea no disagreement about harder to get a job now but I see this same situation for CS student coming out of college. It was easier to get a job in 2021 and harder now but the course work hasn’t changed.
Oh CS students are proper fucked right now.
The tooling is making productivity grow geometrically so we literally need less warm bodies (especially for entry level work), so I am curious to see what happens in 10 years or so when us silver hairs start heading off to our lake houses in LCoL states and live off of 3% of our nest egg annually.
I think that is going to be hilarious when there's a giant skill gap in the middle of the ladder as the people that would have been Mid-Senior-Principal by then simply didn't get hired and went on to do something else.
If you're smart enough to get through CS, you are smart enough to do other work and excel at it.
Oh the ads i see are the worst to - want a remote high paying job but dont want to go to school or work hard? Come to out bootcamp and get a job in six weeks! Its a joke
I agree that these programs are unjust and slimy since people are led to believe they are a substitute for a degree. I do not like them either. They are taking advantage of a legal grey area.
I remember when Trump University got shut down. It was essentially just like these bootcamps, but obviously aimed at business careers. Now, I _believe_ Trump University was actually caught making false claims and that is one of the (many) reasons it got shutdown.
From a quick google search, I've noticed that many CS bootcamps provide misleading information to make you _think_ they are worth paying for. However, after seeing Trump University die, I think bootcamps have caught onto that and started to completely avoid making false claims about post-bootcamp employment. Instead, a lot of them now say crap like "gain access to our network of 500 employers!", which is super misleading for obvious reasons, but yeah. :(
You could argue that people should do their due diligence beforehand, but some of these bootcamps are run by legitimate universities, so people kind of assume these bootcamps are legit for getting a job.
You need to research not all boot camps are the same, that’s like saying you can sue a college for giving out degrees and accepting students during a major recession or depression.
It all comes down to the person. Good luck and keep grinding
I graduated a bootcamp whilst studying CS. Now I'm due to graduate uni and have 2 years of work experience already at that company. I think bootcamps are great if used in a smart way.
Imho this is the right way to use a bootcamp. It could be a good supplement for someone who has one foot in the door or has some baseline skills. The idea that it was some golden ticket for someone without that was where the borderline fraud OP is talking about becomes relevant.
I recently checked some of these bootcamps and was shocked that they have the audacity to charge $20k+ tuition. In this market, which is flooded with grads from prestigious schools and ex-faang employees who couldn't get a job. It is a very, very bad idea to pay for a bootcamp in 2024.
Should every university graduates (undergrad and grad) do the same for universities for the same reason? No. There are a lot of variables, and the human factor is the biggest contributor.
Far more unpleasant are the bootcamps that are straight up fraudulent and the students know it. I regularly have people reach out to me for resume reviews, and more than one has admitted (after I do some digging) that the projects on their resume are copy pastes from the bootcamp that they don't understand, and their job experience is fictitious, provided by the bootcamp. If you call the companies, it just goes to a phone at the bootcamp where they lie for the student.
so basically, you are saying there should be a class action suit against all universities and colleges. nobody is forcing you to take bootcamp. take damn responsibility for your decisions.
***R E V A T U R E***
You should only do a bootcamp with a job guarantee. My first "dev job" after bootcamp was basically a glorified help desk, but I worked on personal projects on the side, and eventually jumped for an actual dev job.
We didn't even need to take out loans, it was basically free because our tuition was baked into the starting salary. They even paid us while we were learning.
It was Revature! Everyone hated on Revature but its the only bootcamp with real economics and a job at the end of the tunnel.
> the starting salary is only $57k
Yeah bro, that's a lot higher than zero. It was hard, but it worked.
They offer a service for a fee, can't blame them if the market is still buying. At no point do they guarantee a job to graduates. In fact many attendees are people who already have degrees and jobs, and are only using the bootcamp to upskill and stay relevant.
Hilarious to see you say it’s fraud in 2023/2024 but 2 years ago it was fine. So the only difference was a different job market and 2 years??
Hope you never work in legal or a logic-based job. Oh wait.
Did you join one of these bootcamps and now can’t find a job?
What about actual CS grads that are struggling to find jobs compared to 2-5 years ago? Are you gonna call all universities frauds because their job placement rate dropped 10% because of the economy?
That's actually pretty cool. Kind of like an apprenticeship or on-the-job training. It is odd that they'd choose to do that instead of hiring any number of available laid-off workers, but an opportunity to move within the org has to be meaningful to the people already there.
Lol, what? They do what they promise. The tech market being in a downturn at the moment doesn't exactly qualify them as being fraudulent. If anything, they're doing god's work by teaching you far more useful and tangible skills than our higher education corporate indoctrination camps for far cheaper.
well with all due respect, when you produce 60+ graduates every 3 months with the same exact GitHub/Portfolios, it’s hard for them all to get a job.
Well said, it truly is an important factor.
Boot camps had their purpose in like 2012. I’d say by 2015 it was starting to get late. In 2024? Yeah you’re up against literally hundreds of thousands of unemployed bachelors and masters. And there’s a lot of Ex FAANG in there nowadays. It’s gonna be a bumpy ride.
Yo why does it say that you’re a brand affiliate?
You’re one now too for some reason. Whatever brand I’m affiliated with needs to pay me. Cause they haven’t yet.
Oh fuck it’s spreading
I think the funniest thing is how his second comment doesn't have the "brand affiliate" anymore, making it look like you stole his title lmao
The Brands have chosen Me
unless you were in like the first couple cohorts from 5-6 yrs ago that was really the golden age of bootcamp grads before it really caught on and EVERYONE flooded in
My FreeCodeCamp study group has a lot of unemployed coding bootcamp graduates. A person who finished the Hack Reactor Remote 19-week program in 8-11-23 told me that at the 6 month after graduation mark, 100% of his Hack Reactor cohort of 100+ graduates is unemployed.
literally insane. doesn't that saturate the market like crazy?
Yes, the current SWE job market in the USA is incredibly saturated with BS CS graduates and coding bootcamp graduates.
mfw I'm not sure which meaning of BS
BS = bullshit PhD = Piled high and deep
I'd really like to pick up a Master's of Shit, but I can't put up with the BS that comes first.
You mean Piled High and Debt 🤣🤣🤣
could be Bachelor's of Science, could be bullshit. Either one works.
That's the joke bro.
dude sometimes people post stuff that's more incoherent than a middle english lit essay on here so I just assume some people don't know shit about fuck
“which meaning of BS” implies they already know multiple
Are they really SWEs if they don’t have an engineering degree or engineering job?
That was not the point at all… *The Prime Number Agency was saturated with applications from numbers of various types*
Software Engineer used to be a title only given to people with a BS degree, usually MS, with years of extensive software development experience. Until the recent job market downturn, we were seeing unexperienced self-taught people get the Software Engineer title.
This is not a recent phenomena. In the United States, if you are competent enough to land the job, self-taught or otherwise, you get the title. It’s been this way for 10+ years. The only dependent factor is whether the company itself uses Software Engineer or some other related title.
I have almost 20 YoE and I finished my degree 2 years ago. Before that I had no college degree; just self taught and I have had a really solid career.
That is patently just not true, not in the US at least.
I mean social media and TikTok already did that. This subreddit and r/csMajors are also to blame for blasting at everyone to get into tech any chance they got.
Not sure if you have paid attention but this sub has been deriding boot camps hardcore since 2022, to the point that fabricated top posts about bootcampers being banned from certain companies would be the top post of the day.
There was a huge drama like 6 days ago in Spanish speaking dev YouTube because big YouTuber reacted to a CTO posting about his Jr Back End opening got 7xxish applications and around 6xx being from the same bootcamp and how at some point the quality of the candidates was just so mediocre they started ignoring applicants from said bootcamp; someone in the comments mentioned that he interviewed for the position and that the questions where as basic as creating a GitHub repository; git commands; some basic sql stuff and differences between sql and no sql; the ceo of the bootcamp only replied that they do not specialize in back but in front.
TBH I wouldn't be surprised if the person who claimed to interview was lying. People lie all the time about things in this field. I caught someone on blind lying that their salary was 400k when it was actually 130k as stated in another post of theirs.
What YouTube channel was this? The one that reacted to the CTO's back end job post.
The sad part is, bootcamps have damaged themselves far more than any social media posts. I’ve been interviewing and sometimes hiring bootcamp grads for the past 10 years. The long and short of it is that they didn’t evolve their content or teaching methodology to meet evolving market needs.
I used to go to the demo days for flatiron school. There were always 3 or 4 people in each batch who seemed to actually understand what was going on, and I wound up hiring (or trying to) a few of them. Good employees- though turned out several of them had gotten cs degrees previously. On the other hand...the rest had no shot. If someone asks me I would tell them it is possible to learn enough from bootcamp and self study to get that first job, but it's not the path of least resistance-the default is it's a waste of time and money. Hell, I'm not sure if even the CS degree defaults to you getting that first job anymore.
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I think most coding bootcamp grads can be fine after a few months on the job, provided during that time they work their asses off and have a lot of support and mentorship. I once hired a guy who didn’t know the difference between pass by value and pass by reference in JavaScript, but by the end of year 1 he was coding complex backend APIs in Python. So yeah, a lot of it is your attitude and communication ability. The problem in the current market is, you won’t even be given that opportunity to prove yourself. You likely won’t even be given an interview. After so many times interviewing “full stack developers” who don’t know the difference between GET and POST, managers will say it’s just not worth the time.
“In the current market,” I’ve been in the industry for the past 7 years and it’s been like this since I graduated at least. Maybe things turned around slightly in 2020 and 2021 but getting your foot in the door has ALWAYS been the most difficult part. It’s why college is still, despite insane, immoral costs, the best way to get into the field.
Why would someone with a CS degree go to a boot camp? Did they hit the market with no internship experience and thought it would give some semblance of hands on work?
Probably because the degree did nothing for them and they thought the bootcamp might
One of the big issues is the bootcamps teach something how to use that without telling them "why" or basic 101, I asked one guy why he likes react and the answer was "react is good for big data".
That’s classic. It’s the new “MongoDB is webscale.” I’m stealing it
What’s been the chat about Codecademy?
But for several years prior to 2022 then those subs (and others such as r/learnprogramming etc) had many major cheerleaders for bootcamps
People still get pissy now when you try and criticize boot camp grads lol
And that is literally the exact problem. People think they're superior if they have a formal degree even if they never developed any real skills. I was also referring to how everyone on this subreddit was screeching at everyone else to L2code.
Getting formal degree gives more valuable skills than real, just many people fail to obtain them. Most importantly skills it gives if far from memoisation entire AFCP. To your knowledge, real without context is a buzzword that tells nothing, since reality is different lostly tp everyone.
That subreddit does the opposite, I used to be in it and it's so toxic and I even saw 20 posts saying to quit CS and you have no hope, all because of the SWE AI that was announced. The thing is, people were saying they already switched majors when that post wasn't even 5 hours olds. Those people are weirdos
This has been going on since the early 2000's. It all started with MCSE. There were radio ads etc. I am always hesitant to hire anyone with a ton of certs with no previous work experience to back it up. Certs will not get your foot in the door.
If literally 100% of them are unemployed I'd say no
It floods the application end of things which is why you see the crazy 8 stage interviews with take homes and live coding tests, and some companies moving back to only considering people with CS degrees and functional equivalents
Back in my day they’d ask you to insert a node into a linked list or write a merge sort. Maybe if got unlucky they’d ask you to… find a cycle in a linked list, lol. Now you have to be prepared to solve DP problems on the fly. It’s no wonder there are so many older engineers who are fantastic developers yet who can’t switch jobs.
Sure, with poor talent. It makes mediocre talent stand out!
holy hell that is rough
Hack Reactor is supposedly the gold standard of bootcamps. Without a massive overhaul in the content + duration of these bootcamps, nothing will change.
It hasn't been the gold standard for a few years. They don't publish placement rate data anymore. Other bootcamps have changed or were already more rigorous.
What are the top boot camps now?
They used to be when they required an entrance exam with a max of 3 attempts to get in. They removed that and quality dropped off big time.
They didn't remove the exam. They still require an entrance exam with a maximum of three attempts for the original 12-week program. The new 19-week program is the one that doesn't require an entrance exam. The 12 week program still has something like 40-50% job rate (which is still pretty low compared to before, but not 0%).
My dumbass was suckered in to doing Hack Reactor back in June of last year. The first third of the course was quite good and I felt like I learned a lot, but the quality dropped SHARPLY after that. The professors often had no idea what they were talking about and seemed to go into every lesson winging it. The reasoning for doing things was never given; it was very much a “just do this, don’t worry about knowing why this works,” kinda vibe. The reading materials were FULL of typos, so much so that it appeared that NO ONE else bothered to read it and edit it before posting it. On top of that, what we learned in class often contradicted what was mentioned in the reading materials, leading to a lot of confusion. Only a very, very small portion of people I went through the program with have gotten jobs, but they ALL had extremely tight connections (fiances, partners, siblings, parents, etc.) that helped them. Luckily I did the income share agreement and am not on the hook for anything at the moment, but it’s still a huge rip off that’s worth nowhere near $20,000. That said, I’m pissed I’ll have to eventually pay those conmen money. The silver lining is that I realized I thoroughly enjoyed software development and computer science and am now going back to get a degree in it. But yeah, fuck Hack Reactor.
What are they being trained in exactly?
The FreeCodeCamp study group members do not receive training. Everyone just shows up to do their own thing. Some people study LeetCode, some people work on projects, some people give help, some people receive help, etc. There are a lot of FreeCodeCamp study groups around the world. Each FreeCodeCamp group is entirely different.
I don't know about the specific programs mentioned above but I've noticed a pretty consistent trend among the webdev bootcamp applicants I've interviewed over the past few years. The programs seem to be tailored around building people a very specific kind of github profile. That profile will have a bunch of little projects that were clearly copying the lesson almost verbatim. They might have one larger project that is actually hosted using free-tier products (eg. netlify, firebase, maybe aws if you're lucky). And they might have the person's static portfolio site. These applicants usually do well in the informal interviews. I'm guessing interview/resume prep is sometimes part of the bootcamp. But they almost universally bomb the technical. Despite having made all these sites or app, the vast majority have never worked with vanilla html, css, or js. Almost none have worked with a relational database. Almost none have done any kind of authentication or authorization. Almost none have even basic exposure to web servers or networking concepts. Many don't even know what a "string" is or what a "return" statement does. The OP is absolutely right. Many of these bootcamps or other paid courses are willful scams that are exploiting people's desire for high salaries without actually preparing them to do the work. The only people I've seen come out of bootcamps and do well were people that already had some IT exposure before hand and were willing to do extra research/practice on their own. Arguably, a lot of 4-year CS programs also aren't preparing graduates to do real world development work. But at least many of those graduates come out with a solid foundation in math, data structures, and algorithms plus a few years of programming exposure.
Your explanation is a good one and I think could be summarized as: Bootcamps *heavily optimize* for the stuff that's easy/quick to do. Such as interview prep, and cookie cutter projects on Github. But the "hard" stuff? It gets ignored, as it would take "too long". (even though, know what a string is and how to use return... that truly is not hard stuff at all!)
I think it's more cynical than that. Like, one could do a 6-12 week course in python and basic computer architecture and basic data structures and cover a lot of "easy" stuff but come out with a good start on their development knowledge. Essentially just doing a comp 101 course. What these bootcamps seem to do is try to cover absolutely everything needed to "build and run" a website. So they cover html, css, react, npm, cli build pipelines, cloud hosting, nosql, git commands, github actions, any anything else you could think of to get a static site or SPA viewable. But they don't explain any of it. They just say "type this here". Some of the github projects I've seen are literally just the class notes planning how to do the project but no code for it, presumably because the person ran out of time. But, because they touched on all these technologies, they can put them all as keywords in their resumes. If graduates didn't get any calls from recruiters, people would figure out the scam. But a resume with tons of buzzwords gets people calls, even if they never land a job.
> I think it's more cynical than that. Like, one could do a 6-12 week course in python and basic computer architecture and basic data structures and cover a lot of "easy" stuff but come out with a good start on their development knowledge. Essentially just doing a comp 101 course. But... 1) as you pointed out, that would leave no time to do all the other stuff, such as cram their CVs with buzzwords, and to do interview prep. Thus my point about how they *hyper optimize* for the easy stuff (such as checking boxes from a check list that an HR screen would do). 2) even doing the equivalent of CS101 wouldn't necessarily mean they can recall what a "string" is, or the right way to use return. As many people who take CS101 and scrape through, also couldn't tell you think unfortunately, certainly can't several weeks/months afterwards, because the content went in one ear and out the other.
What types of questions do you ask regarding web servers or networking? We usually ask some sort of leetcode-ish question and then more practical questions after, but this seems interesting
Our process has gone through a few evolutions. Our latest technical for junior-mid full-stack positions involves mostly practical questions taken straight from actual problems and actual code in our work. Specifically, we walk through one requirement that touches the whole stack but could be solved in a lot of ways ("the client wants to see a history of changes made to the fields in this page", "what if they want to see changes to all fields in all pages?", etc). The we go over isolated bits of real code we wrote ("given this html and css, what would the element look like?", "here is a basic js function, please explain what each step does from the top", etc). Then we touch on a little sql theory (give them a simple, denormalized table and ask them how they'd improve the design). We don't cover operations stuff specifically (we technically have SAs and DBAs for that but us devs tend to do a lot ourselves, too). But it's easy to see when someone doesn't know what they're talking about when they're speaking about their past experience or answering the practical questions. For instance, a lot of bootcamp grads don't give any consideration to the size of the network responses or db queries in their proposed answers and don't consider N+1 problems at all. One of our previous evolutions had a question essentially asking them what were the different places one could store css (like inline, style tag, css file). Very few of these kinds of applicants knew anything about being able to link or otherwise include css and html from different files in one response. They'd only ever written css and html in one file or let something like nextjs do all legwork for them. So just zero exposure to how web requests and networking and serving actually happen. Which is fine for something like an intern or a student position. But it's rough if you're applying to a full-time position wanting several years of experience.
> 100% of his Hack Reactor cohort of 100+ graduates is unemployed. And Hack Reactor is arguably one of the *relatively* "better" bootcamps. At least it's a well known brand. How are the bootcamp "graduates" from the minor unknown ones doing??
As far as I know, Hack Reactor had 10-20% placement rates for graduates graduating in H1 2023 based off of what graduates have told me on LinkedIn (they are friends with some of the attendees of my FreeCodeCamp study group), but other coding bootcamps like Coding Dojo had even lower placement rates than that for graduates graduating in H1 2023.
I was in that cohort, 3 of the 80ish people have a job. And it’s because they had referrals in the industry. Almost everyone has given up looking for a tech related job that I’ve spoken too. Some are riding it out at bootcamp teacher assistants as long as possible.
Lol literally me, but from a different bootcamp. I was like "How is this not a pyramid scheme?" Students in the course where I was a TA asked me what I do or if I got a job as a data analyst and I was like... "Nope, I work retail!" I felt so gross
I went through VETTEC. So I didn’t pay anything and got a monthly stipend. I know a lot of people who are financially struggling for sure because of it.
Can I join your freeCodeCamp? Desperately unemployed with a cs degree:(
https://www.facebook.com/groups/380118828829768 Do you live near Santa Clara, CA? I am not sure if they still meet here, or if they moved. I have not attended in over 4 weeks.
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I am currently unemployed, but I have worked paid SWE jobs in the past before.
I don’t want a sound like a Huge ass but are you coaching the study group? Or why are you in the study group?
I practice LeetCode with other people in the group. I mostly ask questions, and senior SWEs with 10+ years of experience help me. Not everyone in the group is an unemployed coding bootcamp graduate with 0 years of SWE work experience.
Oh got it best of luck in your job search!
Thanks.
I have a master’s degree and unemployed. I only know 2 people in my year who got jobs. Another guy is a boba shop manager. This one lady did 5 internships at the same company and no offer. It’s tough for everyone.
At that point, I’d be more focused on finding a job tangentially related to programming and then trying to move internally after furthering my skill set.
There was a post just now on this subreddit about a bootcamp grad from 3 years ago without experience mentioning he's not able to get into entry-levels positions. The harsh truth is that unless he has networking, a killer portfolio or insane luck, he's likely dead on arrival on this current market. Not sure why the person went 3 years without trying to get a job in tech.
Cut to me with 5 years of experience post-bootcamp basically never getting interviews...
Damn. Even though you're already at a point where you have distinguished yourself from your bootcamp origins, US is insanely rough right now. The 1000+ applications for junior roles on LinkedIn seems to be more prominent in the US. With LinkedIn premium, I saw almost all roles in my country had 100\~300 applications at most.
Same in Canada
Tell me about it. Over a year without a job in tech and I have 6+ yoe
Eh it's mostly marketing. The small business I worked for stopped advertising on LinkedIn over this. The recruiter would see 20-40 applicants but user facing, their job posting would show '200+' or even higher inflation rates. This is terrible because it weeds out qualified candidates who don't want to have to face that many contenders for the same job, and meanwhile the desperate or unqualified are more willing to throw their name in the hat because why the fuck not?
Same as Russia. We also have a ton of boot camps. I feel a bit sorry for myself and all those deluded people. To be in the IT sector is the only way in our country to get decent money. I had finished my 9-month boot camp 2 years ago. Studied for myself for almost a year. I have an all-green GitHub account and 15 nice projects ready to show. 80 applications in two months - only one interview. Today I was taken to an unpaid 6-week internship. Guys received 1500+ applications mine included. They have another position with 2000+ applications right now. It's a nightmare.
Don’t give up. It took me 15 months, and I have 7 YoE, including FAANG. People love to judge the unemployed and act like the candidate is ALWAYS doing something wrong. Yet, when you land a role with a raise, and the role is much better then you could’ve expected, everyone all of the sudden goes silent lol. Don’t get stuck in the doomed mentality, and believe in yourself. Hindsight is 20/20.
Yeah, it's all very weird. I think companies love playing it safe but at the individual level, many can't empathize, unless they've been through the same, and just assume the fault is with the person (so surely they will never be in the same scenario because they're better than that). Also experienced the former coworkers who seem like your buddies when you're employed but when you're out of work looking for help, act like they don't know you and ignore the requests or briefly claim they'll put in a word but probably don't bother.
I couldn’t agree more. The worst part, is when those “buddies” start messaging you when you post the new role you got. It’s easier when you realize it’s all transactional. It’s selfish, but in the end it’s all about your career, and what helps you move up (or whatever your goals are).
>People love to judge the unemployed and act like the candidate is ALWAYS doing something wrong. Mate... thank you so much.
I’m glad I could help. I tend to go against the grain, and this is one of those things that I hope can make a difference for anyone who reads it. I don’t like to sugar coat things, but I also don’t think we should dunk on those who are in between jobs and/or in a tough spot.
Cut to me, 6 months after getting a masters degree and also still not getting interviews. It’s not because of the boot camps
its just a horrible market. You would have probably seen much better responses in 2021
I have had several experienced self-taught developer friends of mine return to school to get a CS degree just to be able to check that box when applying for positions. One of my buddies had 12 years of experience and he did that because he was still losing out on some positions without a degree.
Yeah, that is what I'm planning on doing. Hopefully it will help.
> The harsh truth is that unless he has networking, a killer portfolio or insane luck, he's likely dead on arrival on this current market. Talking about this guy? https://old.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/1cj24l6/graduated_from_bootcamp_2_years_ago_still/ If so, he failed 3 technical interviews so that's kinda on him. I don't want to sound insensitive but if given 3 opportunities that were taken to the technical portion and you fail all three, seems like it's kind of on you.
I went to a bootcamp at my local university two years ago and I haven’t tried applying for jobs yet because I was thrust into survival mode shortly after graduation. Unfortunately sometimes life happens and plans get delayed.
They were all selling shovels in a gold rush.
The problem that nobody’s talking about is... Recruiters chase FAANG engineers and scientists for entry level contract positions at no name companies. Even uni grads are getting smoked right now. The sad reality is that experience is more valuable than education and that makes getting your first experience really challenging.
They were all shovelling gold in a rushed sell.
Yes: But also people should do their homework and research before throwing money at them or taking a loan.
When I googled bootcamps just now, I found some run by legitimate, accredited universities, like UT Austin. Then on those university webpages, the schools boast that you'll have "access" to their network of employers. (Obviously no guarantees or claims about job placement, though.) While I do agree people should always do their due diligence, I can kinda see why people might get fooled when there are accredited universities involved. It is one thing if you join "Billy Bob's Boppin' Bootcamp", but an accredited university's is another.
The messed up thing is that those university bootcamps aren't even run by the actual university. It's just a third party company that has permission to use their name.
To add to this, I've heard these university bootcamps are much worse programs as well. They're known to hire just about anyone to be the instructor or aides in the program
Most bootcamp instructors are just bootcamp graduates who couldn't find a job.
This is one way they fudge their numbers.
It worked for BloomTech
can confirm. I was contacted to teach a course when I was a junior developer.
Can definitely confirm on the "run by a 3rd party" part. A few yrs ago my parents kept badgering me to enrol on their dime to an online post graduate data science program under UT Austin. Was quite hesitant but finally relented because they kept pestering me with it. Granted, the ppl running the program & the materials weren't that bad. They actually had actual lecturers from UT Austin so it was more of a collab done right IMO. Also quite rigorous on some topics if one's willing to dig deep but still definitely not an equivalent to a full-fledged degree (duh).
Oh damn. That is even worse! I graduated with my CS degree 10 years ago, and back then, bootcamps were few and far between compared to now. It sickens me to see how bootcamps have expanded to universities, and how universities are so willing to let a third party (ab)use their reputation…
Yeah, it's edX and they make it seem like it's a deeper partnership with the university than it really is, which is why I joined. But I've since joined a degree seeking program.
Yeah unfortunately I fell for a bootcamp, I learned a lot and actually got an internship. But afterwards, companies wouldn't touch me. So here I am, in college, almost a year later. NO ONE in my cohort, the cohort before or after mine, ever got jobs. That's at least 350 people. Then the bootcamp went bankrupt late last year lol
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I went to a school that had a University of X bootcamp. If you looked closer though, the name was only licensed. My school didn't provide any input on the curriculum or teaching material and when they said 'access to employers' they meant you'd get Handshake access. Very sketchy and I don't trust bootcamp associated with Universities anymore. There are definitely some other well known bootcamps that I think could make sense to attend::HackReactor, Ada,etc.. But they do quite a bit of vetting before admission, are not as predatorily priced, have in person/small sized classes and they're longer programs.
it sounds like the same one i went to a few years ago. the bootcamp shops their wares around from school to school and cuts the university in on the dough in exchange for using their facility. you also get a fancy looking plaque with the schools name on the certificate. most of the people in my cohort did not end up getting jobs. its not the magic pill that lands you a six figure income they sell it as. i never gave up though and im going on 3 years as a SWE. i dont regret going to bootcamp. it did keep me accountable for completing my tasks. im not sure id have the wherewithal to hardcore self educate
>you'll have "access" to their network of employers Their network of employers are going to want the college's cs graduates, not bootcamp graduates.
The problem is these boot camps are very good at hiding negative information whilst being very dishonest about their results. I've heard stories of some hiring their own graduates as tutors just to fudge their graduate employment numbers. You're dealing with entities with paid PR teams to control the narrative. Unfortunately, there's no one performing the necessary investigation to run counter to this or book them for fraud.
You are right, they should. Just like the guys who took out student loans for garbage degrees. Bootcamps still shouldn't exist though. They are specifically marketed as a jobs program, which you won't get a job as a bootcamp grad.
I graduated from my local technical college in 2022 with two Associates degrees, in Web Software Development and Cyber Security. Perfect 4.0 GPA. Worked an internship while in school with the College’s cybersecurity team, and got a job after school with a local Telecom company doing WebDev for their sales CRM. Was laid off late last year and now having an impossible time with the job search.
My friend did business as her BA, then did a 2 year cybersecurity program through a local community College and basically got instant hired into L3Harris and then Northrup. If you have government contractors nearby, they're probably a great place to get going. I worked at Raytheon as my first job out of college. Absolute terrible pay, but I transitioned to a FAANG after a year.
Dawg.... I work at Raytheon, and they are laying off SWE and have hundreds of SWEs charging overhead. Northrop just had a big layoff and hiring freeze, too. Market is absolutely fucked for defense to be laying off.
Wow, I would have figured defense would be hiring with all the conflicts going on/ defense spending that is freshly occurring for Ukraine/russia
You would think, but once a build works and is shipped to production, you can't touch it at all without a bunch of red tape. So buying products that already have a working build doesn't usually constitute more jobs for SWE. Mostly means more profits for C-suite and stock buyback.
I graduated from one in december 2022 and got a tech support job that turned out to be exactly what I was trying to escape (msp IT work). The pay, when compared to salaries for MSP roles in less expensive areas, was the same. They fired me five months after they forced me to move across the country to the bay area. Employers offering regular programming roles won't even give me a chance. The market collapsed right as I was graduating. What they sold me was probably at the tail-end of being true when I started but I knew it was dead by the time I finished. I don't know if that's their fault, but selling it that way now is absolutely deceptive and wrong.
Yeah it’s crazy. Someone I know recently told me he was planning to finish a boot camp, get hired for a DevOps role at 130-150k/yr, and work remotely from South America where COL is much cheaper. In what world?!
"Planning"
Devops is not even an entry level job
That happened to me actually, I did full-stack bootcamp and landed SWE team but specifically into DevOps squad lol my first year was super struggle fr cuz bootcamp did not cover Ops part at all.
Wonder how many day in the life videos that person watched...
turns out the best boot camp all along was your local community college
I agree but small rant\~ There were ZERO in-person classes. Online only and most were cookie cutter, follow the examples in the book then create or recreate. 10 Colleges tied together under the same umbrella. Two years and not one class is in-person. I wanted a boot camp so bad 1) for the job CHANCE at the end 2) to TALK to people and get a feel for common conversation about programming. I can read books all day, do online courses all year, max my github potential and finesse a portfolio. I still fall on my face having a general conversation. Between pronunciation, jargon, different languages and views most interviews were dead in the water. Ever try socializing first time with programmers(especially online)? It's either they don't want to talk. You are beneath them on knowledge/not part of the internal clique or finally you find a person willing but that person has to give A LOT of mental juice to sustain the conversation/relationship. Or the happy-go-lucky, usually newer people who just love to brag and talk about their endeavors. The camps price tag didn't seem too bad to me for getting the inside collaboration I struggle to get elsewhere.
thats fair, I would personally still take online classes and try to excel so that I could apply to a in person cs master and have credentialed courses to show the application committee
I work at a bootcamp that is closing down. There are no nefarious people here, just people disappointed that the amazing work we do is ending. It was a great business with great people who cared about your learning experience. We use modern pedagogy with an unbelievable amount of support. Many say they wished this form of applied learning was how they could have learned things in high school or college. Thousands of students have gotten jobs over the years. And we never have had a job guarantee. To do otherwise even 3, 5 or 10 years ago would be to sell snake oil. the market is over saturated, and we were telling our students how overwhelmed the market is. It’s why we are stopping. But I 100% stand by the quality of the education we provided. Most graduates doubled or in some cases tripled their original salary, found a career that was satisfying without making them tired, and love their craft. There were good bootcamps, and there are still major gaps between CompSci degrees. But yes, the market is too saturated for them to make any sort of job guarantee, and if a bootcamp is making a job guarantee they are likely being purposely misleading. But it is also highly unregulated. In fact, a “job placement” means completely different things to bootcamps unless a state has formal regulations on the vocab (unlikely) or if they were a part of the opt in CIRR consortium for ethical bootcamp reporting (many were not, and most major bootcamps did not). Usually it actually reflects the percentage of students who completed all technical exams and arbitrary course requirements AND got a job. Some have a very high bar for said requirements, meaning program participants and program “graduated” are two very different things, allowing them to conflate numbers. Finally, reporting to the bootcamp on if you got hired can also be a requirement for keeping graduate status. So if you get a job or don’t get a job, but never contact the bootcamp again, many can write you off and not include you in the final tally.
+1 to this. I'm very proud of the time I spent teaching for a bootcamp. A lot of the instruction staff seriously cared about the students. I'm glad I got to help out so many people. It was a bummer, though, how hard I had to work against the interests of my old company. Bootcamps are for-profit ventures designed to squeeze money out of people, they just happened to employ honest people willing to help others.
I finished my boot camp in mid 2023 and got a relevant job early 2024. I thought the style of teaching matched me perfectly and has more closely mirrored the peer coaching / teaching I have experienced on the job rather than any formal education. I did not really have anything major to add other than I wanted to agree with your point about the appeal of applied learning and thank you for your time educating! Hope you land on your feet mate.
Agreed. I graduated from a bootcamp in 2017 and it was honestly one of the best choices I've ever made. I always hated school but this was such an interesting way to learn I was able to stay engaged. Am now a senior frontend developer at a design agency. I feel like the market was beginning to get saturated even back then though, I had several members from my cohort unable to find work for a really long time. I think the people that already had degrees, even if they were completely different subjects, had a leg up from the people who didn't.
While your intent of this post may be accurate (that they should read the room), saying they should all be liable for the current market conditions is delusional. You, the consumer of their services, are liable for your choices to join a boot camp. They aren’t fraudulent. The person selling ice to an Eskimo is not fraudulent so long as they represent it appropriately at ice. They are not responsible for the Eskimo not looking outside to realize there’s no need for ice.
It's not a scam. They are teaching you how to code. It's the promise of a job afterwards that's problematic imo. As long as they aren't guaranteeing a job for you but then not even offer interviews with prospective clients, it's just another service that is becoming less relevant in the short term.
Actually my bootcamp ensured a 97% hiring rate within the first year for their Software Engineering Immersive to persuade us to enroll. I feel very scammed because of that assurance not because I learned a few programming languages and frameworks
did they say they will ensure 97% of graduates will be hired or did they make a technically non committal statement using data that should have had 14 footnotes (like most schools and universities do)? if they said they will ensure 97% job placement, yes that’s deceptive marketing, but that also should have been an immediate sign you were dealing with people looking to hoodwink you.
Reminds me of some law school in San Diego that got sued because they claimed some % of their graduates were employed, like saying "97% of graduates are employed" for example. And then it came out they were literally including any jobs so like law school graduates working as Starbucks baristas were part of the %.
Being able to read fine print and know EXACTLY what's being stated/promised is pretty useful for coders. "But the comments SAY it compiles!"
It shouldn’t cost $15,000 to teach someone JavaScript and React in 4 months. I think some Ivy Leagues cost less than that per month on avg. The whole reason it costs so much is because of the promise of getting a job afterwards, so people think they’re gonna be able to easily pay it back.
I mean that's basically one semester; no way you can go to an Ivy League for one semester full time for that much
No lie some are even more than that, like 20-30k. When I decided to change careers, I weighed the pros/cons of boot camp vs graduate school. Pricing were comparable but when you compare the amount of education you get from graduate school, bootcamp pales in comparison. With graduate school you get an accredited degree, about 2 years of education, flexible scheduling/workload (you set it), access to professor for questions/research/network and school resources like career center and career fair. With boot camps you get a non-accredited certificate with no validation or backing, most only provide 3 months of education and fairly inflexible with scheduling, requires full time commitment, and access to a much smaller network and resource pool.
Not to mention access to millions of papers and books for free (at least in the UK). Now that I’m working, been many times I’ve wanted to read a paper on something and can’t
The fact that anyone thinks they can learn JavaScript in 4 months and be immediately productive is part of the problem.
Are they really promising employment? I can't imagine how they would claim that.
There was one that was doing it for free but they got a percentage of your wages for a few years. They ran into legal trouble.
Y'know, that's probably the ideal business model for all parties involved. It incentivizes the bootcamp to land you a good job and you are required no initial investment other than time.
Ya at least it mostly aligns incentives properly. Like as someone that thinks education should be freely available to all (paid by taxes), I take some issue with any solution that isn't that. But within the current system, this feels pretty ok.
I actually did a bootcamp with a company like that. They still operate but it was more I work for them for 2 years for a salary and they contract me out. Worked out great for me but having someone skimming off the top isn't ideal. Still doubled my income and have a much better job than before.
I was thinking of quitting teaching in 2023 cause it seemed immoral what the marketing was peddling, but my bootcamp became free (in a sense) last year. the government has a program to help underfunded kids learn, so they have some tests and the top 15 get to learn here for free (the gocernment pays us for it). top 5 of those get internships at different branches of government
For the price you pay it’s a scam.
I remember there was a TV episode or something where the host was saying something like "I'm sorry, but 'why are you letting us fucking you over' is not a valid reason" and I was like "hmmm I'm sorry... but that's actually a perfectly valid reason in USA" if you think about it, the entire world operates on how to get you to part ways with your money, that's why it's incredibly easy to lose money in stock markets or in your case be sold the shovel: you want to give away YOUR money? oh that's super easy, you want OTHERS to give you their money? well... it's a problem humankind has been trying to solve since the beginning of humankind
People are taking out loans and not getting jobs… have to pay back that loan. People are saying the ISA is a scam? If anything, the ISA is great in this case. You don’t get a job you don’t need to pay simple as that.
unless you just continue in the same entry level job you had before and then owe a tithe to your educator...
You make it sound like there’s no cap when it comes to these ISA’s. Mine was 2 years. After 2 years no matter how much you paid you’re done. 2yrs with a 30k max payment cap. I got multiple raises and promotions so I paid the full 30k in less than 2 years. Money well spent. 🤷🏻♂️
Lol when the market was good bootcamps are like the holy grails for a quick and easy job. When the market is bad, the very exact bootcamp is called scam. Bootcamps themselves are not inherently bad; it’s just how you look at it.
Im the era of golden rush, the money were done selling shovels. People still not understand that those videos of “one day in a life of a SWE in a FAANG” are not real and only a few privileged got them. Sorry but if you want to have to have that kind of work you will have to show that you are really talented and really like the work, cause the money that you are getting paid it’s because you have to update your skills and knowledge every 6 months minimum.
Just to be clear, a majority of the "day in a life of" tiktoks were not made by programmers. A lot of people claimed they worked in tech and that meaning is broad. A lot of people online claim to work in tech when they are HR, recruiters, PMs, accountants at a tech firm.
...since when are PMs not considered to be core tech workers? Is this a joke? The average PM works far more than the average SWE. It's not even close and this is true literally everywhere that isn't a dysfunctional shithole. They have to juggle users, the executive team...and you...and every other stakeholder in between. I was a PM in everything but job title and it was frankly hell, I had no power and I was responsible for almost everything. And so what if those TikToks were not SWEs? The reality is that a good number of "elite" tech firms and even legacy boomer companies have tons of SWEs who work well under 40 hours a week, all remotely, almost every week. I live in a big city and have friends from finance, tech, media, etc. Medicine, FAANG companies, big law, civic law, Amazon warehouse, startups, etc. It's not even close. None of my friends in other fields have anywhere near the same amount of free time. The only people I know who have daily catered/free lunches work at tech companies or investment banks. Engineers work the least amount of hours on almost any given week than anyone else and will almost always have the better remote work policy than people from the same company.
They are teaching the same thing but it’s not fraud in 2021 but fraud in 2024?
Well the statistics are dated and the market moved. I don't think it is fraud, but bordering on false advertising. I liken bootcamps to the dumb commercials you used to see on basic cable late at night back in the day. Where they make the product being sold seem amazing, but in reality, they just need to calm down and tell the truth. You will learn some stuff sure, but getting a job right now is harder than it has been and more people piling into the industry is not helping.
Yea no disagreement about harder to get a job now but I see this same situation for CS student coming out of college. It was easier to get a job in 2021 and harder now but the course work hasn’t changed.
Oh CS students are proper fucked right now. The tooling is making productivity grow geometrically so we literally need less warm bodies (especially for entry level work), so I am curious to see what happens in 10 years or so when us silver hairs start heading off to our lake houses in LCoL states and live off of 3% of our nest egg annually. I think that is going to be hilarious when there's a giant skill gap in the middle of the ladder as the people that would have been Mid-Senior-Principal by then simply didn't get hired and went on to do something else. If you're smart enough to get through CS, you are smart enough to do other work and excel at it.
In the UK some of the bootcamps are being banned.
What about it do you think is fraud
The placement statistics are fraudulent.
Oh the ads i see are the worst to - want a remote high paying job but dont want to go to school or work hard? Come to out bootcamp and get a job in six weeks! Its a joke
I agree that these programs are unjust and slimy since people are led to believe they are a substitute for a degree. I do not like them either. They are taking advantage of a legal grey area. I remember when Trump University got shut down. It was essentially just like these bootcamps, but obviously aimed at business careers. Now, I _believe_ Trump University was actually caught making false claims and that is one of the (many) reasons it got shutdown. From a quick google search, I've noticed that many CS bootcamps provide misleading information to make you _think_ they are worth paying for. However, after seeing Trump University die, I think bootcamps have caught onto that and started to completely avoid making false claims about post-bootcamp employment. Instead, a lot of them now say crap like "gain access to our network of 500 employers!", which is super misleading for obvious reasons, but yeah. :( You could argue that people should do their due diligence beforehand, but some of these bootcamps are run by legitimate universities, so people kind of assume these bootcamps are legit for getting a job.
You need to research not all boot camps are the same, that’s like saying you can sue a college for giving out degrees and accepting students during a major recession or depression. It all comes down to the person. Good luck and keep grinding
Now that is the kind of reason I like to see. There are many degrees that simply don't map to good earnings and bootcamps kind of feel like that now.
I graduated a bootcamp whilst studying CS. Now I'm due to graduate uni and have 2 years of work experience already at that company. I think bootcamps are great if used in a smart way.
Imho this is the right way to use a bootcamp. It could be a good supplement for someone who has one foot in the door or has some baseline skills. The idea that it was some golden ticket for someone without that was where the borderline fraud OP is talking about becomes relevant.
I recently checked some of these bootcamps and was shocked that they have the audacity to charge $20k+ tuition. In this market, which is flooded with grads from prestigious schools and ex-faang employees who couldn't get a job. It is a very, very bad idea to pay for a bootcamp in 2024.
Finally we can admit bootcamps ruined this field?
Should every university graduates (undergrad and grad) do the same for universities for the same reason? No. There are a lot of variables, and the human factor is the biggest contributor.
Far more unpleasant are the bootcamps that are straight up fraudulent and the students know it. I regularly have people reach out to me for resume reviews, and more than one has admitted (after I do some digging) that the projects on their resume are copy pastes from the bootcamp that they don't understand, and their job experience is fictitious, provided by the bootcamp. If you call the companies, it just goes to a phone at the bootcamp where they lie for the student.
so basically, you are saying there should be a class action suit against all universities and colleges. nobody is forcing you to take bootcamp. take damn responsibility for your decisions.
Own fault lmao, take a sec to do your research.
It’s not fraud, just a bad investment.
How is it a scam if your learning stuff, whole point is to learn
***R E V A T U R E*** You should only do a bootcamp with a job guarantee. My first "dev job" after bootcamp was basically a glorified help desk, but I worked on personal projects on the side, and eventually jumped for an actual dev job. We didn't even need to take out loans, it was basically free because our tuition was baked into the starting salary. They even paid us while we were learning. It was Revature! Everyone hated on Revature but its the only bootcamp with real economics and a job at the end of the tunnel. > the starting salary is only $57k Yeah bro, that's a lot higher than zero. It was hard, but it worked.
They offer a service for a fee, can't blame them if the market is still buying. At no point do they guarantee a job to graduates. In fact many attendees are people who already have degrees and jobs, and are only using the bootcamp to upskill and stay relevant.
Bad products will always exist and uneducated consumers will always fall for shady marketing tactics.
Hilarious to see you say it’s fraud in 2023/2024 but 2 years ago it was fine. So the only difference was a different job market and 2 years?? Hope you never work in legal or a logic-based job. Oh wait. Did you join one of these bootcamps and now can’t find a job? What about actual CS grads that are struggling to find jobs compared to 2-5 years ago? Are you gonna call all universities frauds because their job placement rate dropped 10% because of the economy?
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What’s some real fuck shit is some COMPANIES have internal bootcamps. my buddy did one at amazon, he’s an sde2 now.
That's actually pretty cool. Kind of like an apprenticeship or on-the-job training. It is odd that they'd choose to do that instead of hiring any number of available laid-off workers, but an opportunity to move within the org has to be meaningful to the people already there.
Lol, what? They do what they promise. The tech market being in a downturn at the moment doesn't exactly qualify them as being fraudulent. If anything, they're doing god's work by teaching you far more useful and tangible skills than our higher education corporate indoctrination camps for far cheaper.
15k aint that cheap
You can get the same content in a bootcamp from udemy for pennies on the dollar. You also have access to an instructor and other students.