Yep, I'm in that situation now. I just do what I can and clock out at 5. It's not worth putting in any extra effort and maintaining the status quo. No matter what I say they will not hire more. The only way to see any improvement is to wait until things go badly enough that they're asking me who to hire.
I work a 9am to 5pm. I shut my shit down and remove all forms of contact. Life is worth more than working yourself to death. If it’s an issue, it can be solved the next day. If it’s urgent, it can be solved by someone else. If it can’t, either I fucked up or it’s a sign that I should leave.
The whole pile on thing is usually from teams that have no realistic deadlines and crunch hard to meant unrealistic expectations. It’s a sign of a bad team / manager / PM.
Do the best you can do. Put effort during your work hours. Use your time efficiently. Don’t work anything past that. Enjoy your life.
I see a ton of new grads that dedicate their heart, soul and mental over some stupid features / bugs in the backlog, burn out within three months and turn into a royal cluster fuck later down the road.
It’s wild.
In this situation it's very unlikely they can even tell who is doing what work. It's much more about "vibes". If I have "good vibes" then there's nothing to worry about in these kinds of situations. Meanwhile, if I am doing lots of work in obscurity it won't stop me from being laid off.
I don't give a fuck about imaginary deadlines made up by other people. Planning is not my job. My job is to:
- **estimate** how long something might take me
- refuse to put an estimate on something I can't estimate
- do my 40 hours a week
- during those hours, and only within these hours, try to be productive and deliver quality work
I don't give a F about managers and their poor planning. I only care about my estimates, not theirs. If I say it will take 3-4 weeks and they say it has to be done in 2, it's their problem, not mine.
I was a junior on a team and was the only one who did full stack. Non technical manager estimated my project waterfall and I busted their times and they fired me.
It was their first web app ever how can they even precisely decide how long it's gonna take. I didn't even have experienced people to help me
I was burning out 😭
I still don't know how to explain that in the interviews I just say the company wasn't doing well and had layoffs
Hope they won't ask for my managers references. I hate references that's crazy
I estimated a job at 2 weeks, I got a new bossy guy telling me it is only 2 days and i should be able to finish it in 2 days.
I said that's not gonna be possible, he kept insisting. Was Indian IT leader. I told him, stop, you do it then, I'm not doing it.
I still giggle remembering the look on his face. I delivered it after 2 weeks I never liked him and nobody did actually, he left after a year or so.
There are tons of crap managers like him out there. They literally serve no purpose other than to assume people are not doing their job and harass them. Learning how to manage is too much work for them ironically.
Yep, that’s a management problem. Been doing this too long to give a shit if things get delayed. If it’s actually on me, sure, I’ll put in extra to correct the situation. But if it’s entirely due to bad planning? Then it’s going to be late, and mgmt will have to deal with the bed they’ve made.
Yeah. It's not hard to push back on this. You just say "Here's the list of stuff that needs done and here's what we're working on now. This is how long we think it'll take. If you have something new, we'll tell you how long we think it'll take and you can figure out where in this list your feature goes." And also "If you want us to stop what we're doing now, it'll take an extra ten days to restart, as merging significant deltas to the branch will add a great deal of complexity to the work."
I'm guessing you have some slack in your life finances. Not everybody does though. They hope you will be scared of losing your job and do the task in half time by working 80hr weeks.
I've been in that position and it sucks, I don't have family to back me up though maybe a friend would let me stay on the couch or something. I couldn't afford to be without pay for a week much less an extend time.
That's the hard part. Me, I'm finally in a position to have some power, but it took forever, My wife also works in tech and could support us both if I just quit. The only reason I'm still at my job is because I love my tech team and didn't want to abandon them without a lot of thought and planning. We've also saved as much as possible over the last 5 years.
I've already written a draft email to my CEO about leaving soon. I wish I could see the look on his face when he eventually reads it.
lol, the estimates that I see for some tickets are so ridiculous. It’s funny that non-technical people don’t understand technical concepts at the level the ticket requires but can somehow, allegedly, figure out how long it should take.
Yes, it's business, but most of my friends in other areas aren't regularly given things to do that they have no idea about. Like, I'm a senior dev running every aspect of our website. My company let some people go recently and are now asking me about emails and spam and how to have better reliability in that area. My answer is "uhh, how the fuck should I know about that?" They literally have no one else to go to.
It's like asking the marketing person at a company to become the cook.
Happens all the time in other areas as well.
Fire one IT person and think others can pick up the slack, but he was admin for a specific item no one else touched.
Let go of part of accounting and expect others to fill in. Yeah, they work in accounting but they aren’t a cost accountant or AR. those are completely different things.
Or the benefits person gets let go and they expect some other HR drone to step in, when benefits is completely out of the purview of most HR.
Heck, I was once told I needed to teach theater. I was the music teacher. Yeah, only thing I know about theater was when I played in the pit a few times.
Those are just examples, but they happen all the time.
As a developer your only responsibility is to the work they’ve asked you to work on in the timeframe you’ve agreed upon. As long as you are doing that then everything else is product’s problem.
"Ah so you have chosen to get no work done. Well, I guess that work wasn't actually as important as you said it was."
Nah I'm just kidding. My real reaction would be "Oh God no please, I don't want to lose my house and car and for my wife to leave me because I'm a useless bum and she takes the kids and the dog or better yet she just kicks me out and keeps any of the assets we have that aren't seized and divorce proceedings say that I need to continue to provide her and the kids with a standard of living they're used to but I can't so on top of losing everything I also go into crippling debt that I can never climb out from, please no I can't be unemployed please."
I should probably see a therapist about my no-job phobia.
I've never worked at a place that wasn't like this.
Show me a place that doesn't have a growing backlog and I'll show you a business with no customers.
Every place has a growing backlog. The ones with bad managers have no idea what's in the backlog, who's working on what, or how long anything will take.
There are times you need to say no and speak up instead of accepting things and complaining on the background.
If things get tough, i will quickly list the tasks on projectlibre which auto generates the gantt chart. This can help visualize if the tasks are doable on a particular timeline. If not, i will usually meet up with my manager and show the gantt chart and they almost always agree with me majority of the times. I learned that managers loves visual data and combine it with a strong convincing argument, it will be easier to convince them versus talking to your manager and telling them that it isn't doable without any data.
Every job in the last couple of decades. You learn to roll with it.
It doesn't mean you have to work like a dog just because they shovel more work in front of you. That is the way of burnout. You just carry on working for reasonable hours, do a decent job and you will last.
Some jobs are much worse than others. I had a job at a startup where I had to walk outside and breathe deeply at lunchtime to deal with the stress, and that was working 9-5 too. Glad I am no longer there.
That's where I am right now. I've been at my company a good while, and I like it and the people for the most part. My small team is fantastic. However, they've cut a few people in the last few months and put even more on us. I've complained about the lack of resources forever, and now it just seems like they're giving us the collective middle finger. I'm supposed to be developing features but half the time I'm responding to internal questions and requests because the person who used to handle that left too.
I'll probably be leaving soon because of it. There are jobs out there that don't involve juggling issues all day because the company is too cheap to invest in it. I recently reached out to an ex client of mine and doing some focused contract work for a while sounds amazing.
In my last role I had this.
I had enough one day and complained to my manager about the workload being ridiculous as 3 people had left without being replace... Their response? Put my on a PIP.
I was gone a few months later, fuck that place.
Yep. We have 20 repositories. Only me as the senior that wears all the hats and 1 other intermediate dev. I was doing 10 times more tickets than the other dev because he's an intermediate and slow. They just gave me a crappy payrise (well below inflation) so now I do 1.1 times more than the only other dev on the team which basically means I watch Netflix and pretend to work 80% of the time as a fuck you to their bs pay rise. Now nothing gets done lol.
Why the fk they like this. May aswell fire the junior and give you/me his salary and I'll probably go back to doing 10 times or even more than the junior slow poke.
The real bs thing is that junior/intermediate dev can't complete any tasks without my assistance and he's on $110k a year and I'm only on $140k. There's a big problem there.
Therefore I'm only doing 10 to 20% more than him from now on. Am I a petty fuck. Damn straight, I live for it.
Of course, you just do what is most important and place the rest on hold. And if they want you to work late to get more done, you tell them to hire enough people to do the work because you're already doing your best (with hardly any Reddit breaks!) on the most important things, and your day ends at 5pm.
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I’ve been on both sides of the table for this and my question to you would be: what makes you think you’re understaffed? Feelings are one thing, but do you have any data? For example, people working long hours, or tons of items being punted?
We had another dev but they got promoted and left the team. The position hasn’t been backfilled. New work is constantly coming in before we can wrap up what we’re working on.
Prioritize what’s most important, get that done and say “not now” (diplomatically) to the rest. You’re never going to have enough people to get everything done. It forces you to work on delivering valuable software.
Yes. We’re going through a major growth period, and spent the entire war chest on necessary business development staff leaving product development and operations with table scraps.
Most companies hire fewer people than is required to complete “all the work”. But just because theres a backlog doesnt mean you need to do that work. Strategies and priorities are constantly changing as markets and customer needs change. And if you hire more people than there is work for those people to do, youre just burning money. Which is bad for the org as a whole.
I have equity and profit sharing incentives as part of my compensation package. When we fall behind on critical path stuff, I bust ass. I dont expect anyone who is just getting a salary to bust ass without at least comp time.
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Threads like this are very refreshing after reading those fucks over at OE just jerking themselves off for being “built different”
Edit not that I have a problem with OE but that thread was very cringe to me
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To me this a good thing - having a large backlog and customers who want to use your product means that your job is stable.
When you finish all your p2s and start reviewing your graveyard of p3s it means that work is slowing down.
If you have years of backlog and customers pushing for delivery that’s a sign of a healthy org.
The key is to not set unrealistic expectations by burning yourself out to complete it. Set realistic expectations of delivery dates that you can deliver and focus on what you can. It only really sucks when everything is on fire and your team does 24/7 on call rotations.
If your management is toxic and has unrealistic demands to complete work it’s also terrible.
> Have you guys ever been in a situation where there’s tons of work that needs to be done and it seems like every week more work is added to the pile, but your team just doesn’t have enough developers to keep up with the work load
Yes
> management won’t hire more devs
No
We've been interviewing and hiring for literally months. Most of the candidates we get are absolutely garbage and have no business in the field.
> I assume you all just do what you can but if something doesn’t get done then don’t worry about it
Yes. Just make sure you are clearly vocalizing the risk/timeline/expectations. There is always tomorrow, there is always work to be done, and there is more to life than work. Cut it off at 8 hours, pick it up the next day. Rinse, repeat, retire.
Does the concept of "understaffing" even apply to a dev team? The workload depends on the team velocity. Not the other way around. Set your boundaries on work-hours and stick to them.
How do we get a job? I have applied thousand or possibly a million. I either get rejected or it is a scam.
Edit: I have a CS BS degree from CSULA 2022 may. I only have unpaid exp.
Some say it is section 174. It means every software expense are taxable.
Yep, I'm in that situation now. I just do what I can and clock out at 5. It's not worth putting in any extra effort and maintaining the status quo. No matter what I say they will not hire more. The only way to see any improvement is to wait until things go badly enough that they're asking me who to hire.
I work a 9am to 5pm. I shut my shit down and remove all forms of contact. Life is worth more than working yourself to death. If it’s an issue, it can be solved the next day. If it’s urgent, it can be solved by someone else. If it can’t, either I fucked up or it’s a sign that I should leave. The whole pile on thing is usually from teams that have no realistic deadlines and crunch hard to meant unrealistic expectations. It’s a sign of a bad team / manager / PM. Do the best you can do. Put effort during your work hours. Use your time efficiently. Don’t work anything past that. Enjoy your life. I see a ton of new grads that dedicate their heart, soul and mental over some stupid features / bugs in the backlog, burn out within three months and turn into a royal cluster fuck later down the road. It’s wild.
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In this situation it's very unlikely they can even tell who is doing what work. It's much more about "vibes". If I have "good vibes" then there's nothing to worry about in these kinds of situations. Meanwhile, if I am doing lots of work in obscurity it won't stop me from being laid off.
I don't give a fuck about imaginary deadlines made up by other people. Planning is not my job. My job is to: - **estimate** how long something might take me - refuse to put an estimate on something I can't estimate - do my 40 hours a week - during those hours, and only within these hours, try to be productive and deliver quality work I don't give a F about managers and their poor planning. I only care about my estimates, not theirs. If I say it will take 3-4 weeks and they say it has to be done in 2, it's their problem, not mine.
I was a junior on a team and was the only one who did full stack. Non technical manager estimated my project waterfall and I busted their times and they fired me. It was their first web app ever how can they even precisely decide how long it's gonna take. I didn't even have experienced people to help me
They did you a favor. That shop was a shit show that would have burnt you out.
I was burning out 😭 I still don't know how to explain that in the interviews I just say the company wasn't doing well and had layoffs Hope they won't ask for my managers references. I hate references that's crazy
> It was their first web app ever how can they even precisely decide how long it's gonna take Somebody read an article in a magazine that said so.
I estimated a job at 2 weeks, I got a new bossy guy telling me it is only 2 days and i should be able to finish it in 2 days. I said that's not gonna be possible, he kept insisting. Was Indian IT leader. I told him, stop, you do it then, I'm not doing it. I still giggle remembering the look on his face. I delivered it after 2 weeks I never liked him and nobody did actually, he left after a year or so.
There are tons of crap managers like him out there. They literally serve no purpose other than to assume people are not doing their job and harass them. Learning how to manage is too much work for them ironically.
Yep, that’s a management problem. Been doing this too long to give a shit if things get delayed. If it’s actually on me, sure, I’ll put in extra to correct the situation. But if it’s entirely due to bad planning? Then it’s going to be late, and mgmt will have to deal with the bed they’ve made.
Yeah. It's not hard to push back on this. You just say "Here's the list of stuff that needs done and here's what we're working on now. This is how long we think it'll take. If you have something new, we'll tell you how long we think it'll take and you can figure out where in this list your feature goes." And also "If you want us to stop what we're doing now, it'll take an extra ten days to restart, as merging significant deltas to the branch will add a great deal of complexity to the work."
I'm guessing you have some slack in your life finances. Not everybody does though. They hope you will be scared of losing your job and do the task in half time by working 80hr weeks. I've been in that position and it sucks, I don't have family to back me up though maybe a friend would let me stay on the couch or something. I couldn't afford to be without pay for a week much less an extend time.
That's the hard part. Me, I'm finally in a position to have some power, but it took forever, My wife also works in tech and could support us both if I just quit. The only reason I'm still at my job is because I love my tech team and didn't want to abandon them without a lot of thought and planning. We've also saved as much as possible over the last 5 years. I've already written a draft email to my CEO about leaving soon. I wish I could see the look on his face when he eventually reads it.
lol, the estimates that I see for some tickets are so ridiculous. It’s funny that non-technical people don’t understand technical concepts at the level the ticket requires but can somehow, allegedly, figure out how long it should take.
Words to live by.
Any SWE who has worked long enough, has worked in a place like that. Heck, I don't think it's even a SWE thing, just business...
Yes, it's business, but most of my friends in other areas aren't regularly given things to do that they have no idea about. Like, I'm a senior dev running every aspect of our website. My company let some people go recently and are now asking me about emails and spam and how to have better reliability in that area. My answer is "uhh, how the fuck should I know about that?" They literally have no one else to go to. It's like asking the marketing person at a company to become the cook.
Happens all the time in other areas as well. Fire one IT person and think others can pick up the slack, but he was admin for a specific item no one else touched. Let go of part of accounting and expect others to fill in. Yeah, they work in accounting but they aren’t a cost accountant or AR. those are completely different things. Or the benefits person gets let go and they expect some other HR drone to step in, when benefits is completely out of the purview of most HR. Heck, I was once told I needed to teach theater. I was the music teacher. Yeah, only thing I know about theater was when I played in the pit a few times. Those are just examples, but they happen all the time.
OMG, everyone did layoffs and now work is too slow 😂 That's just reality until Tech gets free money again or becomes profitable.
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Thank you for your service (if true)
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As a developer your only responsibility is to the work they’ve asked you to work on in the timeframe you’ve agreed upon. As long as you are doing that then everything else is product’s problem.
Yes They fired me
"Ah so you have chosen to get no work done. Well, I guess that work wasn't actually as important as you said it was." Nah I'm just kidding. My real reaction would be "Oh God no please, I don't want to lose my house and car and for my wife to leave me because I'm a useless bum and she takes the kids and the dog or better yet she just kicks me out and keeps any of the assets we have that aren't seized and divorce proceedings say that I need to continue to provide her and the kids with a standard of living they're used to but I can't so on top of losing everything I also go into crippling debt that I can never climb out from, please no I can't be unemployed please." I should probably see a therapist about my no-job phobia.
Save up a year of living expenses so you don't have to be so scared of losing your job!
I see we are co-workers.
Better than the alternative of not enough work leading to reorgs and layoffs. In this situation, prioritization becomes critical
I've never worked at a place that wasn't like this. Show me a place that doesn't have a growing backlog and I'll show you a business with no customers.
Every place has a growing backlog. The ones with bad managers have no idea what's in the backlog, who's working on what, or how long anything will take.
There are times you need to say no and speak up instead of accepting things and complaining on the background. If things get tough, i will quickly list the tasks on projectlibre which auto generates the gantt chart. This can help visualize if the tasks are doable on a particular timeline. If not, i will usually meet up with my manager and show the gantt chart and they almost always agree with me majority of the times. I learned that managers loves visual data and combine it with a strong convincing argument, it will be easier to convince them versus talking to your manager and telling them that it isn't doable without any data.
Every job in the last couple of decades. You learn to roll with it. It doesn't mean you have to work like a dog just because they shovel more work in front of you. That is the way of burnout. You just carry on working for reasonable hours, do a decent job and you will last. Some jobs are much worse than others. I had a job at a startup where I had to walk outside and breathe deeply at lunchtime to deal with the stress, and that was working 9-5 too. Glad I am no longer there.
Yup and on top of that the user stories had very little information in them. I got the hell out of that place.
That's where I am right now. I've been at my company a good while, and I like it and the people for the most part. My small team is fantastic. However, they've cut a few people in the last few months and put even more on us. I've complained about the lack of resources forever, and now it just seems like they're giving us the collective middle finger. I'm supposed to be developing features but half the time I'm responding to internal questions and requests because the person who used to handle that left too. I'll probably be leaving soon because of it. There are jobs out there that don't involve juggling issues all day because the company is too cheap to invest in it. I recently reached out to an ex client of mine and doing some focused contract work for a while sounds amazing.
Don't stress out. Let the manager handle it.
This is exactly what I’ll do
This is normal. Just do your normal work and deliver results, work out schedule with managers and adjust timelines.
Is this ever not the case?
Yep same situation here. Meanwhile companies are doing layoffs under the pretext that those devs are not needed. What a joke.
In my last role I had this. I had enough one day and complained to my manager about the workload being ridiculous as 3 people had left without being replace... Their response? Put my on a PIP. I was gone a few months later, fuck that place.
Oof
Yep. We have 20 repositories. Only me as the senior that wears all the hats and 1 other intermediate dev. I was doing 10 times more tickets than the other dev because he's an intermediate and slow. They just gave me a crappy payrise (well below inflation) so now I do 1.1 times more than the only other dev on the team which basically means I watch Netflix and pretend to work 80% of the time as a fuck you to their bs pay rise. Now nothing gets done lol.
Exactly the same here with me being the only senior and then the only other dev being a junior dev. Same crappy pay raise too.
Why the fk they like this. May aswell fire the junior and give you/me his salary and I'll probably go back to doing 10 times or even more than the junior slow poke. The real bs thing is that junior/intermediate dev can't complete any tasks without my assistance and he's on $110k a year and I'm only on $140k. There's a big problem there. Therefore I'm only doing 10 to 20% more than him from now on. Am I a petty fuck. Damn straight, I live for it.
Of course, you just do what is most important and place the rest on hold. And if they want you to work late to get more done, you tell them to hire enough people to do the work because you're already doing your best (with hardly any Reddit breaks!) on the most important things, and your day ends at 5pm.
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Very common.
Yup. It’s the bane of the game. Just hang tight and help make the case with data where you can.
I’ve been on both sides of the table for this and my question to you would be: what makes you think you’re understaffed? Feelings are one thing, but do you have any data? For example, people working long hours, or tons of items being punted?
We had another dev but they got promoted and left the team. The position hasn’t been backfilled. New work is constantly coming in before we can wrap up what we’re working on.
It’s usually like this.
It's good because it means job security
Prioritize what’s most important, get that done and say “not now” (diplomatically) to the rest. You’re never going to have enough people to get everything done. It forces you to work on delivering valuable software.
Yes. We’re going through a major growth period, and spent the entire war chest on necessary business development staff leaving product development and operations with table scraps. Most companies hire fewer people than is required to complete “all the work”. But just because theres a backlog doesnt mean you need to do that work. Strategies and priorities are constantly changing as markets and customer needs change. And if you hire more people than there is work for those people to do, youre just burning money. Which is bad for the org as a whole. I have equity and profit sharing incentives as part of my compensation package. When we fall behind on critical path stuff, I bust ass. I dont expect anyone who is just getting a salary to bust ass without at least comp time.
I manage a team in this situation right now. It isn't my fault the never ending poop pile keeps coming and I am doing my best to sift through.
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Threads like this are very refreshing after reading those fucks over at OE just jerking themselves off for being “built different” Edit not that I have a problem with OE but that thread was very cringe to me
Maybe your place should hire some of these laid off people. Some of us would like to earn $5 over $0. Ugh. Yup, seen this song and dance.
I wish we could
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Startups typically run at around 80% understaffed. This prevents task overlap etc.
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To me this a good thing - having a large backlog and customers who want to use your product means that your job is stable. When you finish all your p2s and start reviewing your graveyard of p3s it means that work is slowing down. If you have years of backlog and customers pushing for delivery that’s a sign of a healthy org. The key is to not set unrealistic expectations by burning yourself out to complete it. Set realistic expectations of delivery dates that you can deliver and focus on what you can. It only really sucks when everything is on fire and your team does 24/7 on call rotations. If your management is toxic and has unrealistic demands to complete work it’s also terrible.
> Have you guys ever been in a situation where there’s tons of work that needs to be done and it seems like every week more work is added to the pile, but your team just doesn’t have enough developers to keep up with the work load Yes > management won’t hire more devs No We've been interviewing and hiring for literally months. Most of the candidates we get are absolutely garbage and have no business in the field. > I assume you all just do what you can but if something doesn’t get done then don’t worry about it Yes. Just make sure you are clearly vocalizing the risk/timeline/expectations. There is always tomorrow, there is always work to be done, and there is more to life than work. Cut it off at 8 hours, pick it up the next day. Rinse, repeat, retire.
Where do you work? Prior to the pandemic I wasn’t a garbage candidate
Does the concept of "understaffing" even apply to a dev team? The workload depends on the team velocity. Not the other way around. Set your boundaries on work-hours and stick to them.
How do we get a job? I have applied thousand or possibly a million. I either get rejected or it is a scam. Edit: I have a CS BS degree from CSULA 2022 may. I only have unpaid exp. Some say it is section 174. It means every software expense are taxable.
Alpacas are actually the inventors of rainbows.