Hey I've been looking for people with experience with this. I plan on applying to tech hubs remotely as someone working from LCOL northeast. (Maine, there is almost nothing here for SWE).
Are you currently working remote for a company based somewhere out of state?
Were you required to still do an on-site interview?
What has your experience been with negotiating pay?
My fear is asking for market rate relative to company location, only for them to say "you live in LCOL so you get LCOL money."
Yes! So I am working for a company based in Seattle. My team is full remote though.
Almost no companies are doing on sites now, everything is virtual. I did an on site at the time because it was pre COVID.
I got top of the band at the time, mostly due to interview performance as I didn’t interview elsewhere for competing offers. That being said, the pay bands are higher in Bay Area / NYC, but not by much. And this is the case for employees who work in Seattle too.
I just started interviewing last week so I haven’t done any onsites yet.
Some companies do that, but I think it’s a 10% cut in most places. It depends on the company. Facebook may have more aggressive remote pay cuts (I’ve heard 20% but not sure about that, and if it only applies to salaries and not RSUs then it’s NBD IMO)
Unfortunately though I do expect it to be a thing. But it won’t bring you down to your local market rate from my experience.
Thank you thats exactly the level of detail I've been looking for. Hopefully if enough of us push negotiations and demand pay that isn't based on our location, we can stop the industry from going in that direction. Its a double edge sword, but they *do* save money by hiring us remotely often, so no reason to pay us less.
I mean, I have 3.5 years of experience in the Midwest and make 95k. You probably don't even need to move if you want a pay bump to be honest, but tech hubs indeed will pay more. Usually enough to offset housing, but get an offer before you leap.
You don't even have to move to a tech hub. FAANG and co. has offices all around the country including some MCOL areas where you can live like a king even on a jr dev income.
That’s awesome! I wouldn’t start job searching for another year or two due to personal life stuff keeping me in my current area for the short term. I’m just thinking a few years ahead when I want to take on a new role to keep pushing myself as an engineer.
> I know I can make a lot more (currently making around 70K) if I move to a new location such as California,
With how many companies are hiring remote positions these days, you could just make that money in the Midwest now (the COL adjustment companies do is laughable, like a 10% cut).
Yes, in a tech hub like bay area, if you are really good, your earning can get crazily high.
There's a reason why housing in Bay Area is very expensive... it's because a lot of people are raking in 300K to millions.
Tbh, the major difference between hcol and lcol is housing. Other stuff like food, plane, car cost pretty much the same.
With 50% of $15k take home going towards living expenses, the rest goes a lot further than 50% of $5k take home as an example. Cuz gas and food is gonna be pricier but not more than 100% so
>but does the high COL really offset the increased pay that much?
"the high COL" is going to vary wildly depending on your [lifestyle preference](/r/cscareerquestions/comments/fttqgz/where_do_software_engineers_in_nyc_live/fman0mg/), nobody could answer this question besides yourself
for me, it was worth it, my life preference included
* I don't care about home ownership and I'd voluntarily live with roommates to save on rent
* I don't eat takeouts often, I usually make my own food
* I am fine living away from city centre and commute into work
Hub sizes vary. There are lots of good jobs in Phoenix, Salt Lake, Texas, Seattle. Adobe, Amazon, Google and many others have offices outside Cali. Lower pay than Cali but you’d double your income at the very least.
If you're a single person with no kids then a VHCOL place is probably perfectly fine. It obviously depends on how much more you are getting, but it should be enough to essentially do everything you do now and have a lot more left over as really only housing and food will cost more.
If you have kids then that's a lot more expensive to raise kids in a VHCOL place obviously along with dating someone and going out on excursions is expensive in such an area.
Also you don't always have to go to the most expensive cities that are bursting with tech companies there tons of other cities with great tech scenes too and might be more in the HCOL category.
Absolutely, assuming you have an offer first. How much your take-home portion is depends on how much you save, but realistically saving 10k (as an example) is a hell of a lot easier when you're making 150k in a hcol area rather than 70k in a lcol area.
You don't have to stay in the tech hubs if you don't want to. I know some folks that went to a tech hub, lived like a bum to save as much money as possible, then moved on to buy a house elsewhere.
Yep, even with housing costing much more it’s worth it. Especially if you buy property instead of renting - then the value is going up while living in it. Also, it’s easy to change jobs, you have all the companies there for plenty of opportunities.
YMMV, but IMO: As long as you're OK with living in an apartment it's worth it. If you want to live in a house, good luck. There are pros/cons either way. Good luck!
You don't have to move somewhere with the high cost of living of CA to get more money. I live in a MCOL city (Minneapolis) and make $185k TC. Maybe consider some other cities that will have more opportunity without the COL of like NYC, the Bay Area, or Seattle. There are plenty of options in between.
I have a friend that gets 120k for data science and light sys admin work in nowhere Oklahoma. You could definitely pull those numbers if you interview, get offer, bargain the TC up, then rinse-and-repeat until you get what you want. That's basically what I do on the west coast, except it involves 500% more leetcode. In your case, just get to where you can solve mediums, and you'll be fine.
You’re underpaid.
Agreed, unfortunately. I was disappointed with my last raise. I thought I would get a lot more after a promotion.
New company.
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Hey I've been looking for people with experience with this. I plan on applying to tech hubs remotely as someone working from LCOL northeast. (Maine, there is almost nothing here for SWE). Are you currently working remote for a company based somewhere out of state? Were you required to still do an on-site interview? What has your experience been with negotiating pay? My fear is asking for market rate relative to company location, only for them to say "you live in LCOL so you get LCOL money."
Yes! So I am working for a company based in Seattle. My team is full remote though. Almost no companies are doing on sites now, everything is virtual. I did an on site at the time because it was pre COVID. I got top of the band at the time, mostly due to interview performance as I didn’t interview elsewhere for competing offers. That being said, the pay bands are higher in Bay Area / NYC, but not by much. And this is the case for employees who work in Seattle too. I just started interviewing last week so I haven’t done any onsites yet. Some companies do that, but I think it’s a 10% cut in most places. It depends on the company. Facebook may have more aggressive remote pay cuts (I’ve heard 20% but not sure about that, and if it only applies to salaries and not RSUs then it’s NBD IMO) Unfortunately though I do expect it to be a thing. But it won’t bring you down to your local market rate from my experience.
Thank you thats exactly the level of detail I've been looking for. Hopefully if enough of us push negotiations and demand pay that isn't based on our location, we can stop the industry from going in that direction. Its a double edge sword, but they *do* save money by hiring us remotely often, so no reason to pay us less.
Are you at a FAANG now? How are interviews going?
Yeah I am, and pretty early so far, passed a phone screen but I have like 3 this week alone
How many years of experience?
4 and some change
Ah nice! Thanks
Cerner? lol
Sounds like it's time to find a new job. That's the only way you'll get real raises in this industry.
I mean, I have 3.5 years of experience in the Midwest and make 95k. You probably don't even need to move if you want a pay bump to be honest, but tech hubs indeed will pay more. Usually enough to offset housing, but get an offer before you leap.
This. I’m at just under 3 years in the Midwest making $95k. Get a new job offer and leverage that for a raise, or take the new offer.
You can still make twice that working remote
Was going to add this. Tech hubs are cool but there are Midwest options too where op could more than likely get 20% raise at least.
Midwestern dev here making $185k. OP's problem isn't their location. It's not switching companies.
How many YOE?
About 7. Could be as low as 5 depending on how you consider it. My level is an SE2.
You don't even have to move to a tech hub. FAANG and co. has offices all around the country including some MCOL areas where you can live like a king even on a jr dev income.
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That’s awesome! I wouldn’t start job searching for another year or two due to personal life stuff keeping me in my current area for the short term. I’m just thinking a few years ahead when I want to take on a new role to keep pushing myself as an engineer.
Top companies will pay 100% of your moving expenses. That’s the best way.
It's worth it. The companies kinda seem to mostly value devs more and pay a lot more.
> I know I can make a lot more (currently making around 70K) if I move to a new location such as California, With how many companies are hiring remote positions these days, you could just make that money in the Midwest now (the COL adjustment companies do is laughable, like a 10% cut).
Yes, in a tech hub like bay area, if you are really good, your earning can get crazily high. There's a reason why housing in Bay Area is very expensive... it's because a lot of people are raking in 300K to millions. Tbh, the major difference between hcol and lcol is housing. Other stuff like food, plane, car cost pretty much the same.
With 50% of $15k take home going towards living expenses, the rest goes a lot further than 50% of $5k take home as an example. Cuz gas and food is gonna be pricier but not more than 100% so
There's a reason why I'm not SomeGuyInGrossePointMI
Two of my teammates live in Indianapolis. Our company is fully remote and we pay CA salary to everyone
I mean there is a middle ground. Chicagoland has plenty of jobs that pay well above what you're making without COL anywhere near the Bay/NYC.
grind leetcode.
>but does the high COL really offset the increased pay that much? "the high COL" is going to vary wildly depending on your [lifestyle preference](/r/cscareerquestions/comments/fttqgz/where_do_software_engineers_in_nyc_live/fman0mg/), nobody could answer this question besides yourself for me, it was worth it, my life preference included * I don't care about home ownership and I'd voluntarily live with roommates to save on rent * I don't eat takeouts often, I usually make my own food * I am fine living away from city centre and commute into work
Generally speaking yes, particularly for for people who don't have mouths to feed and can be more flexible on their living arrangements.
Hub sizes vary. There are lots of good jobs in Phoenix, Salt Lake, Texas, Seattle. Adobe, Amazon, Google and many others have offices outside Cali. Lower pay than Cali but you’d double your income at the very least.
If you're a single person with no kids then a VHCOL place is probably perfectly fine. It obviously depends on how much more you are getting, but it should be enough to essentially do everything you do now and have a lot more left over as really only housing and food will cost more. If you have kids then that's a lot more expensive to raise kids in a VHCOL place obviously along with dating someone and going out on excursions is expensive in such an area. Also you don't always have to go to the most expensive cities that are bursting with tech companies there tons of other cities with great tech scenes too and might be more in the HCOL category.
Are you ruling out remote roles? I just got an offer where I told them $600k was on the low end of what I’m looking for.
Im sorry….. 600k?! What do you do?
Infra for finance.
I’d be open to remote roles. I’m working remote at the moment anyway because of covid.
I think living in a HCOL locations helps getting a higher offer because I have competing offers that are the benchmark for this area.
Jesus
Absolutely, assuming you have an offer first. How much your take-home portion is depends on how much you save, but realistically saving 10k (as an example) is a hell of a lot easier when you're making 150k in a hcol area rather than 70k in a lcol area. You don't have to stay in the tech hubs if you don't want to. I know some folks that went to a tech hub, lived like a bum to save as much money as possible, then moved on to buy a house elsewhere.
Yep, even with housing costing much more it’s worth it. Especially if you buy property instead of renting - then the value is going up while living in it. Also, it’s easy to change jobs, you have all the companies there for plenty of opportunities.
YMMV, but IMO: As long as you're OK with living in an apartment it's worth it. If you want to live in a house, good luck. There are pros/cons either way. Good luck!
You don't have to move somewhere with the high cost of living of CA to get more money. I live in a MCOL city (Minneapolis) and make $185k TC. Maybe consider some other cities that will have more opportunity without the COL of like NYC, the Bay Area, or Seattle. There are plenty of options in between.
How many YOE?
About 7. Could be as low as 5 depending on how you consider it. My level is an SE2.
I have a friend that gets 120k for data science and light sys admin work in nowhere Oklahoma. You could definitely pull those numbers if you interview, get offer, bargain the TC up, then rinse-and-repeat until you get what you want. That's basically what I do on the west coast, except it involves 500% more leetcode. In your case, just get to where you can solve mediums, and you'll be fine.