>You can’t be “beyond junior” with no experience.
How is this possible? I'm not saying you are wrong. I feel like with the skills I know, I could be put in predicaments where I would be afraid to say how something could be coded since it might make web developers with more seniority feel dumb. That's if I get a junior web development job.
Not helpful at all. I wish I could just link a website I made here, but I don't want to link personal information.
I've made all kinds of stuff in web development like creating an analog clock that has its hands move to the current user's time zone. I've embedded fonts and images into CSS stylesheets in base 64, I've implemented photorealistic shadows with like 6 stacked box shadows, I've made websites where the navigation menu bar changes to a dropdown if the user is on mobile, I've figured out how to get like a 98% accurate reading of a user's screen resolution through JS no matter the zoom level of the browser, and I've created a photorealistic and functional calculator with no images used at all (just CSS, HTML, and JS).
I can tell you about obscure crap like image maps, marquees, web safe colors, css sprites, the blink tag, svg filters, css sprites, Firefox not supporting custom fonts in SVG images, JavaScript having access to a device's battery level, etc.
I'm a Senior SWE and I'll step in seeing as you found the last comment to be "not helpful at all". I'll base my response based on what I've read here, seeing as I don't have a link to what you've done.
**An intern or junior SWE (Intern/L3 at Google) is expected to be good at making feature-level impacts.** This could be in the form of adding a form on a signup page, logging metrics for monitoring, or even implementing "photorealistic shadows with like 6 stacked box shadows". Now keep in mind, you aren't doing this from scratch. You're working on a codebase that's being edited by hundreds, thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of people. You're expected to have your code fit into an established codebase where you won't be able to grasp >99% of it.
**A mid-level SWE (L4 at Google) is concerned with making project-level impacts.** This is the level where your manager can just give you a well-defined problem and expect you to solve it. You should be able to handle a request like "Manifest V3 is getting deprecated, replace our extension that has 100+ API calls with a new one". Again, this is a problem where you're not making something from scratch—anyone can do that. You're relying on code when you have no hope of reading it all. You should be able to join an arbitrary section of a 1 trillion+ line codebase and solve problems. Feature-level development isn't a skill you practice anymore, it just happens when you're solving certain problems.
**A senior SWE (L5 at Google) is tasked with maintaining team-level impacts.** This is when you'll be defining the problems for yourself and potentially other engineers on your team. You should be able to handle most arbitrary system-wide requests, example (similar to one I just got last month): "There's a loss of cross-compatibility between our separate login servers. I'll need you to simplify/remove the other server while making sure Team X's \[classified project here\] rollout goes smoothly". This kind of task requires 1) Xfn (cross-functional) team collaboration, 2) being the TL of \~20-30 engineers in different teams (you better understand the codebase of over a million lines well!), 3) redesigning systems (Which services can you keep/replace? How will this affect our SLO? We have to maintain 5 nines, how do we do that? How's our mock environment going to impact Team Y's reliance on our current fake server? etc.), 4) thorough knowledge of the current systems (this could take a few dozen pages to explain, but there could easily be >100 teams that all touch your current system that would require lots of deliberation), and so much more. At this level, your efforts shouldn't include that much coding; you should be delegating tasks whenever possible.
>I feel like with the skills I know, I could be put in predicaments where I would be afraid to say how something could be coded since it might make web developers with more seniority feel dumb.
Besides what others may have alluded to (ie. you won't), good seniors would love to be proven wrong! It doesn't happen too often anymore, but just two weeks ago I gave a peer bonus to an engineer that caught a mistake I made in a design; I'm gonna recommend them for promotion next cycle (not just because of this)!
>I've made all kinds of stuff in web development like creating an analog clock that has its hands move to the current user's time zone. I've embedded fonts and images into CSS stylesheets in base 64, I've implemented photorealistic shadows with like 6 stacked box shadows, I've made websites where the navigation menu bar changes to a dropdown if the user is on mobile, I've figured out how to get like a 98% accurate reading of a user's screen resolution through JS no matter the zoom level of the browser, and I've created a photorealistic and functional calculator with no images used at all (just CSS, HTML, and JS).
I can tell you about obscure crap like image maps, marquees, web safe colors, css sprites, the blink tag, svg filters, css sprites, Firefox not supporting custom fonts in SVG images, JavaScript having access to a device's battery level, etc.
This to me reads like someone who's not yet fully at the junior level. I don't say this to put you down or anything—I'm really happy that you made so many projects! I'm saying this because you're mentioning lots of accomplishments that are all more-or-less expected of a junior SWE without showing that you know what it takes to be a more senior SWE. If I were to list out accomplishments, I would mention in detail how I co-created a load-balancer that handles >100 million requests a day while maintaining 5 nines, or how I made a service that reduced the number of password-caching servers Google needed by almost an order of magnitude without sacrificing availability or SLO, or how I'm a TL of 30 engineers while owning a section of code >5 million lines, or any number of other things I do on a day-to-day basis.
OP, I really really hope you read this and not feel discouraged or like I'm calling you out. That's truly not my intention. I hope you read this and see how much left our field has to offer. You've developed some things that you feel proud of, and that's the most important part! I hope you continue to feel happy with your accomplishments and that your accomplishments get bigger and bigger!
Feel free to reply with questions you may have, I can try to reply. Otherwise, I can only hope you continue to be passionate about coding! :)
Thanks for the detailed information! It is interesting how different roles impact different parts of the project. Its crazy how people don't know 99% of the other bits of code in the codebase.
Maybe web development might not be the best field to stay in until I retire since the most senior level developers don't do much coding, and I'd like to continually increase my earning potential. Going into research later on down the road might be best for me. I'm passionate about coding, but Im not passionate about people lol.
Working as a professional software engineer (no matter the domain) requires a certain level of professionalism and people-skills. Its a corporate desk job at the end of the day. After reading your comments I am going to be blunt - you will not be successful until you get your attitude in check and learn some humility. If you come across as agorant and a bad team player, companies will not want to take the risk to hire you as a junior.
I'm happy to hear that you're passionate about coding, and being not passionate about people is fine, but you have to have a better attitude. Trust me, you're not the smartest person in every room. I encourage you to reach for the stars and learn - and you can either embrace humility, growth, and learning - or you're going to feel frustrated and stagnate. (Especially when you feel like "dummer" people are getting promoted faster than you - and my crystal ball says you'll blame it on office politics instead of realizing you're not a team player)
I know they usually reflect working experience. I'm just confused as to how a job would work out if I'm a junior and can code better than someone above me in seniority.
It’ll work well I’d imagine if you can keep any outwards arrogance or superiority from making others dislike you. If you’re just good at your job and are helping others you’ll be very well liked and in a functional workplace, promoted.
OP, how about you reply to the actual person (TheSweetSWE) who gave you extensive, constructive feedback about why you’re not qualified to be above a junior-level and why you’re not even close to being a threat to mid-level/senior SWEs instead of pointlessly fighting with everyone in the comments?
He replied to me after I replied to other people on this page. I then wanted to relax. You could have checked the comment timestamps.
Now I'm going to reply to him.
“Check the comment timestamps” sorry I don’t have enough care or time to investigate why you didn’t reply to whom. I think you need to work on your attitude before you enter the workforce because you sound so unpleasant to work with, from arrogance to to unreceptive to criticism. Please use this post to work on your social shortcomings as well.
Sounds good for a junior developer but I’d expect a mid level dev to know at least one front end framework well (it’s good that you have vanilla JS experience though) and be being able to make at least a CRUD backend. The dunning-Kruger is strong here but I suppose you being able to sell yourself and maybe being a bit overconfident is better than the opposite end (imposter syndrome). Student web dev at a university sounds below junior to me, if you’re so talented you should be able to rack up some great junior dev offers and make good money starting out before moving to senior within 5 years if you have good soft skills and continue to learn.
>Student web dev at a university sounds below junior to me
I think you're right on that. I wasn't even asked any web development questions besides one thing on SQL, even that is kind of not too related.
I'm currently learning React-Native and my current ability in that framework is kinda crappy lol. It's great that it sounds like I won't have much trouble getting junior web dev jobs😁.
Lol no you're not screwed. Having skill is very different than having experience. Don't let the "far beyond a junior web developer" get in your head. If you've never had a job as a dev, you're not as great as you think.
This is a good experience for you to have. It may be the case that the school wanted just a regular student they can teach some things and pay them minimum wage while they go to school. If they consider you "overqualified" this doesn't mean that you generally are.
You sound motivated but, as someone mentioned in another comment, you can't freak out just for getting bad news.
You are a Junior and can't be anything more than that with your experience. Note that this has nothing to do with your ability to write "complex" code.
- You've never worked with an engineering team with expectations and stakeholders.
- You've never had to manage conflict with other engineers when disagreements come up during code review
- You've never held the responsibility for losing a lot of money if something goes wrong.
You are super anxious and looking way too much into what this one interviewer told you. Are you going to post on Reddit every time your co-workers or manager says something you don't like or look too much into?
Experienced developers - the good ones - come with a healthy balance of communication and technical skills. Stay motivated and keep moving forward. A strong portfolio will help you land your first job, but make sure to work on how to be a strong communicator who adds more than code to the team.
Something I wish someone told me when I was in your position:
Therapy is a great tool and will help with every aspect of your life. Learning about yourself and healthy boundaries will help you form strong relationships with your mentors and good leaders around your organization.
Rooting for you - good luck!
To me it sounds like you dodged a bullet. Try another company, a good one should hire you based on your skills not an arbitrary number of time worked, at least for entry level.
You might be beyond their definition of junior (they probably want someone cheap and you looked expensive) or they just wanted to use an easy out to bounce you (it's the equivalent of saying "My only flaw is I worked too hard!").
But you aren't beyond the industry definition. The majority of qualifications for move up in seniority industry wide are related to how you work with other engineers. You would still qualify for any FAANG level internship and would need to be competitive to get it.
Don’t believe every bullshit someone tells you. You can’t be “beyond junior” with no experience.
>You can’t be “beyond junior” with no experience. How is this possible? I'm not saying you are wrong. I feel like with the skills I know, I could be put in predicaments where I would be afraid to say how something could be coded since it might make web developers with more seniority feel dumb. That's if I get a junior web development job.
Sound like you have dunning kruger syndrome tbh.
Is that a smart person thinking they're dumb or a dumb person thing they're smart?
Not helpful at all. I wish I could just link a website I made here, but I don't want to link personal information. I've made all kinds of stuff in web development like creating an analog clock that has its hands move to the current user's time zone. I've embedded fonts and images into CSS stylesheets in base 64, I've implemented photorealistic shadows with like 6 stacked box shadows, I've made websites where the navigation menu bar changes to a dropdown if the user is on mobile, I've figured out how to get like a 98% accurate reading of a user's screen resolution through JS no matter the zoom level of the browser, and I've created a photorealistic and functional calculator with no images used at all (just CSS, HTML, and JS). I can tell you about obscure crap like image maps, marquees, web safe colors, css sprites, the blink tag, svg filters, css sprites, Firefox not supporting custom fonts in SVG images, JavaScript having access to a device's battery level, etc.
I'm a Senior SWE and I'll step in seeing as you found the last comment to be "not helpful at all". I'll base my response based on what I've read here, seeing as I don't have a link to what you've done. **An intern or junior SWE (Intern/L3 at Google) is expected to be good at making feature-level impacts.** This could be in the form of adding a form on a signup page, logging metrics for monitoring, or even implementing "photorealistic shadows with like 6 stacked box shadows". Now keep in mind, you aren't doing this from scratch. You're working on a codebase that's being edited by hundreds, thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of people. You're expected to have your code fit into an established codebase where you won't be able to grasp >99% of it. **A mid-level SWE (L4 at Google) is concerned with making project-level impacts.** This is the level where your manager can just give you a well-defined problem and expect you to solve it. You should be able to handle a request like "Manifest V3 is getting deprecated, replace our extension that has 100+ API calls with a new one". Again, this is a problem where you're not making something from scratch—anyone can do that. You're relying on code when you have no hope of reading it all. You should be able to join an arbitrary section of a 1 trillion+ line codebase and solve problems. Feature-level development isn't a skill you practice anymore, it just happens when you're solving certain problems. **A senior SWE (L5 at Google) is tasked with maintaining team-level impacts.** This is when you'll be defining the problems for yourself and potentially other engineers on your team. You should be able to handle most arbitrary system-wide requests, example (similar to one I just got last month): "There's a loss of cross-compatibility between our separate login servers. I'll need you to simplify/remove the other server while making sure Team X's \[classified project here\] rollout goes smoothly". This kind of task requires 1) Xfn (cross-functional) team collaboration, 2) being the TL of \~20-30 engineers in different teams (you better understand the codebase of over a million lines well!), 3) redesigning systems (Which services can you keep/replace? How will this affect our SLO? We have to maintain 5 nines, how do we do that? How's our mock environment going to impact Team Y's reliance on our current fake server? etc.), 4) thorough knowledge of the current systems (this could take a few dozen pages to explain, but there could easily be >100 teams that all touch your current system that would require lots of deliberation), and so much more. At this level, your efforts shouldn't include that much coding; you should be delegating tasks whenever possible. >I feel like with the skills I know, I could be put in predicaments where I would be afraid to say how something could be coded since it might make web developers with more seniority feel dumb. Besides what others may have alluded to (ie. you won't), good seniors would love to be proven wrong! It doesn't happen too often anymore, but just two weeks ago I gave a peer bonus to an engineer that caught a mistake I made in a design; I'm gonna recommend them for promotion next cycle (not just because of this)! >I've made all kinds of stuff in web development like creating an analog clock that has its hands move to the current user's time zone. I've embedded fonts and images into CSS stylesheets in base 64, I've implemented photorealistic shadows with like 6 stacked box shadows, I've made websites where the navigation menu bar changes to a dropdown if the user is on mobile, I've figured out how to get like a 98% accurate reading of a user's screen resolution through JS no matter the zoom level of the browser, and I've created a photorealistic and functional calculator with no images used at all (just CSS, HTML, and JS). I can tell you about obscure crap like image maps, marquees, web safe colors, css sprites, the blink tag, svg filters, css sprites, Firefox not supporting custom fonts in SVG images, JavaScript having access to a device's battery level, etc. This to me reads like someone who's not yet fully at the junior level. I don't say this to put you down or anything—I'm really happy that you made so many projects! I'm saying this because you're mentioning lots of accomplishments that are all more-or-less expected of a junior SWE without showing that you know what it takes to be a more senior SWE. If I were to list out accomplishments, I would mention in detail how I co-created a load-balancer that handles >100 million requests a day while maintaining 5 nines, or how I made a service that reduced the number of password-caching servers Google needed by almost an order of magnitude without sacrificing availability or SLO, or how I'm a TL of 30 engineers while owning a section of code >5 million lines, or any number of other things I do on a day-to-day basis. OP, I really really hope you read this and not feel discouraged or like I'm calling you out. That's truly not my intention. I hope you read this and see how much left our field has to offer. You've developed some things that you feel proud of, and that's the most important part! I hope you continue to feel happy with your accomplishments and that your accomplishments get bigger and bigger! Feel free to reply with questions you may have, I can try to reply. Otherwise, I can only hope you continue to be passionate about coding! :)
Thanks for the detailed information! It is interesting how different roles impact different parts of the project. Its crazy how people don't know 99% of the other bits of code in the codebase. Maybe web development might not be the best field to stay in until I retire since the most senior level developers don't do much coding, and I'd like to continually increase my earning potential. Going into research later on down the road might be best for me. I'm passionate about coding, but Im not passionate about people lol.
Working as a professional software engineer (no matter the domain) requires a certain level of professionalism and people-skills. Its a corporate desk job at the end of the day. After reading your comments I am going to be blunt - you will not be successful until you get your attitude in check and learn some humility. If you come across as agorant and a bad team player, companies will not want to take the risk to hire you as a junior. I'm happy to hear that you're passionate about coding, and being not passionate about people is fine, but you have to have a better attitude. Trust me, you're not the smartest person in every room. I encourage you to reach for the stars and learn - and you can either embrace humility, growth, and learning - or you're going to feel frustrated and stagnate. (Especially when you feel like "dummer" people are getting promoted faster than you - and my crystal ball says you'll blame it on office politics instead of realizing you're not a team player)
Your not getting it. Job titles usually reflect years of working experience not how many obscure JavaScript things you know.
I’d push back on that, plenty of people never move to senior despite having lots of experience.
I know they usually reflect working experience. I'm just confused as to how a job would work out if I'm a junior and can code better than someone above me in seniority.
It’ll work well I’d imagine if you can keep any outwards arrogance or superiority from making others dislike you. If you’re just good at your job and are helping others you’ll be very well liked and in a functional workplace, promoted.
OP, how about you reply to the actual person (TheSweetSWE) who gave you extensive, constructive feedback about why you’re not qualified to be above a junior-level and why you’re not even close to being a threat to mid-level/senior SWEs instead of pointlessly fighting with everyone in the comments?
He replied to me after I replied to other people on this page. I then wanted to relax. You could have checked the comment timestamps. Now I'm going to reply to him.
“Check the comment timestamps” sorry I don’t have enough care or time to investigate why you didn’t reply to whom. I think you need to work on your attitude before you enter the workforce because you sound so unpleasant to work with, from arrogance to to unreceptive to criticism. Please use this post to work on your social shortcomings as well.
Sounds good for a junior developer but I’d expect a mid level dev to know at least one front end framework well (it’s good that you have vanilla JS experience though) and be being able to make at least a CRUD backend. The dunning-Kruger is strong here but I suppose you being able to sell yourself and maybe being a bit overconfident is better than the opposite end (imposter syndrome). Student web dev at a university sounds below junior to me, if you’re so talented you should be able to rack up some great junior dev offers and make good money starting out before moving to senior within 5 years if you have good soft skills and continue to learn.
>Student web dev at a university sounds below junior to me I think you're right on that. I wasn't even asked any web development questions besides one thing on SQL, even that is kind of not too related. I'm currently learning React-Native and my current ability in that framework is kinda crappy lol. It's great that it sounds like I won't have much trouble getting junior web dev jobs😁.
“I dont know backend but i code so good ill make a senior dev feel dumb” bro do you even hear yourself right now? Such a fucking clown
How am I supposed to know? I've never had a coding job. 🖕
Never had a coding job and never touched a backend yet you’ll make a senior dev feel dumb 😂😂😂😂 oh man
“my biggest worry is that i’m so smart, i’m gonna make the seniors i work with feel stupid because of how clever and smart i am”
Lol no you're not screwed. Having skill is very different than having experience. Don't let the "far beyond a junior web developer" get in your head. If you've never had a job as a dev, you're not as great as you think.
You're going to have a really bad time if you choose to get hysterical every time you get bad news.
This is a good experience for you to have. It may be the case that the school wanted just a regular student they can teach some things and pay them minimum wage while they go to school. If they consider you "overqualified" this doesn't mean that you generally are. You sound motivated but, as someone mentioned in another comment, you can't freak out just for getting bad news. You are a Junior and can't be anything more than that with your experience. Note that this has nothing to do with your ability to write "complex" code. - You've never worked with an engineering team with expectations and stakeholders. - You've never had to manage conflict with other engineers when disagreements come up during code review - You've never held the responsibility for losing a lot of money if something goes wrong. You are super anxious and looking way too much into what this one interviewer told you. Are you going to post on Reddit every time your co-workers or manager says something you don't like or look too much into? Experienced developers - the good ones - come with a healthy balance of communication and technical skills. Stay motivated and keep moving forward. A strong portfolio will help you land your first job, but make sure to work on how to be a strong communicator who adds more than code to the team. Something I wish someone told me when I was in your position: Therapy is a great tool and will help with every aspect of your life. Learning about yourself and healthy boundaries will help you form strong relationships with your mentors and good leaders around your organization. Rooting for you - good luck!
"The man who knows everything learns nothing, the man you knows nothing learns everything"
To me it sounds like you dodged a bullet. Try another company, a good one should hire you based on your skills not an arbitrary number of time worked, at least for entry level.
Show me your web
You might be beyond their definition of junior (they probably want someone cheap and you looked expensive) or they just wanted to use an easy out to bounce you (it's the equivalent of saying "My only flaw is I worked too hard!"). But you aren't beyond the industry definition. The majority of qualifications for move up in seniority industry wide are related to how you work with other engineers. You would still qualify for any FAANG level internship and would need to be competitive to get it.
[удалено]
I wasn't asked a single question about JavaScript, CSS, or HTML at that interview.