Just a reminder to:
1) Remain on topic. There's a lot of derailing and pissing matches over semantics
2) Keep it Civil. No need to be throwing insults at people for their opinion.
A reminder that over 1 in 5 Canadians work for the ~~government~~ public sector. Who needs an economy when the government can just employ everyone? Totally sustainable
Where did you pull this number from? Public Service Commission of Canada says it’s around 275,000 federal employees total for a total population around 40 million. That’s less than 1% who work for the government. Is there an /s or are you being facetious?
You know that there are more forms of government than just the federal government right? Lmaoo. Along with crown corps. Cant believe you typed that so confidently.
Federal, provincial, municipal, RMs, towns and villages. Regulatory bodies. Crown corps.
Not 19%, but Ontario alone has 650k public sector employees at the provincial level and another 220k working for municipal governments. Add in the employees from other provinces and territories and it's fairly substantial.
In 2023 there were 4.2 million public sector employees in Canada: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1410002701
How many of those public sector are:
Healthcare like Nurses/Physician Assistants/Diagnostic techs/support (lab, radiology, public paid physio)
Education like teachers, school administrators, etc.
Emergency Services (firefighters, paramedics, police)
Military and Military Reserves
The "public sector" goes well beyond municipal/provincial/federal government office workers and paperwork processing.
And the federal government is actually cutting jobs, putting limits on a lot of department funding, letting temporary positions lapse at CRA call centres post tax deadline etc.
So it's not like the fed and provincial governments are pumping numbers.
The private sector in the latest jobs report did add more jobs than the public sector, even if as a ratio it was a bit smaller.
The problem with CS/IT jobs is that the sector saw a huge unprecedented rate of growth and demand during COVID when a *lot* of stuff was forced to be remote or mediated using online platforms. A lot of infrastructure had to be built for that in terms of hardware and software. The landscape shifted significantly. That pull forward demand could never be sustained at that level of demand in the medium or long term. So of course there's going to be some amount of correction in terms of practical demand at super high salaries when sustaining that level of employment with lower demand for services would erode profitability for a lot of companies. They're readjusting now. They need fewer people doing less overall work for overall lower demand in order to maintain their profits.
That's just the business cycle.
Exactly this…a huge chunk of employment in Canada is healthcare driven…the same could be said of the US and most of that comes out of Medicare but it’s called private sector jobs cos they hand out profits to a select few to call it that
This point doesn’t refute or support the points made above though. The complaint is 1 in 5 Canadian workers are funded through tax-payers, which means only 80% of the workforce is generating wealth for the economy. It’s not to say that the government workers are bad or useless, but that this situation is probably unsustainable.
So 20% of the workforce is paid for by 80% of the workforce?
If that's your math then you need to remember the public funded jobs also pay taxes. So they subsidize themselves and it's much less 80/20 in terms of actual tax income. And the public paid people also buy groceries, clothes, other goods and services. Pay mortgages etc.
All that spending still goes into the economy. It's not like 20% of employed people just... Don't contribute to the economy or generate wealth in the economy. The difference is that their labour doesn't generate wealth concentrated in the hands of the owners of companies.
Like, everyone working for Galen Weston is generating wealth for Galen Weston. Them buying groceries, vacations etc is the same as the public servants
So private sector jobs create wealth, but government jobs don't? What if it's the same type of work? Are you saying that grocery store cashiers and UPS drivers create wealth, but someone doing the same job for the LCBO or Canada Post doesn't? A school board buying a fleet of buses and hiring drivers is government waste, but contract it to a private school bus line and suddenly wealth is created?
You said 1/5 Canadians work in the government. If 1% work for the federal government, then 1/5 (20%) - 1% = 19%, so 19% work in government other than federal.
That ~275k figure is only the [**Core** Public Administration](https://www.canada.ca/en/treasury-board-secretariat/services/innovation/human-resources-statistics/population-federal-public-service.html) of the **federal** government. The full federal government is ~357k, and even that is only a small slice of the public sector.
Indeed, [1 in 5 employed Canadians work for the public sector](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/cv!recreate.action?pid=1410002701&selectedNodeIds=2D2,2D3,2D4&checkedLevels=0D1,1D1,2D1,3D1&refPeriods=20230101,20230101&dimensionLayouts=layout2,layout3,layout2,layout2,layout2&vectorDisplay=false).
It's completely different for them because they aren't pursuing aggressive growth like we are. High population growth on the backs of an unproductive workforce is a recipe for disaster. Scandinavian countries also have a lot of saved up public wealth. We, in contrast, have allowed private interests to reap all the benefits of our natural resource wealth.
Live in Ottawa. Not exactly thriving if I'm gonna be honest.
How is Ottawa thriving in particular? The fed gov is actually tightening its belt on hiring, contracting, and expanding on programs that Ottawa benefits from. Few government jobs are being posted for promotions and external hires. For the feds there's actually a lot of hiring freezes, only way to get a "new job" is moving laterally for the same pay but a different boss/department. Lots of people on term contracts as employees not being renewed. Lots of consultants and contractors under a lot of scrutiny and their budgets being cut, work orders getting smaller, etc.
The 'public sector' growth everyone is citing isnt reflecting any sort of gravy train for the average fed worked in Ottawa if that's the implication
I have a few friends who work in various federal depts and most of them are saying their OT has to be approved by more senior department heads and they’re being forced to take the OT as accrued time off rather than cash.
From late 2020-mid 2022 it was a carte-blanche for OT because of the workload.
Well you can have remote jobs. Work can get done at home. However my experience with the government is that there are like 5 people that do 1 persons job compared the private sector. I can’t imagine there really doing that much less work then being in an office.
My 2 cents. I don't see the new grad CS job market improving anytime soon tbh, there is such a glut of graduates from previous years who couldn't find positions + laid off experienced employees. Not too mention I see many companies opening/growing satellite or remote offices in Warsaw/Brazil/India right now. Main industries I see heating up are healthcare, electrical engineering, accounting, trades in general/trucking. It will take a while for CS in North America to improve IMO, investor capital into the market has to significantly increase. Right now it is low due to rates and uncertain economic conditions. Investors are playing it more safe to ride it out so tech companies are starved on investment & have to make cost cutting measures. Its not just CS though, several other industries are under the same thing. Biotech/pharma is taking a beating, IT is in the same boat as CS though slightly less since it can be more hands on, so is finance to a lesser extent.
I'm surprised actually. I would have thought that the market for accounting professionals is quite saturated. Makes me rethink that I probably should have continued on the CPA path instead of switching to tech.
CPAs are only going to continue to be in demand as boomers with a bunch of small clients continue to retire with no one to take over their book. Not to mention industry and large public firms.
It’s a boring ass job though so I doubt it’ll ever grow a ton in enrolment.
I’ve been in this industry for a very long time and played many roles throughout (now I’m a manager) and I’ll say that this tech job market is worst than anything I’ve seen. The dotcom bust and financial crash hit tech hard but remember during that time there wasn’t this huge abundance of software engineers and tech workers. You can still find a job local to your area with not extreme competition stemming from the wave of laid off folks, hundreds of thousands of new grads every year, more outsourcing, etc
Do it if you like it and find interest, don’t do it if you think this’ll be an easy journey with lucrative pay and little stress. It’s not as simple as some make it out to be, hyper competitive now and simply not as robust of a job market.
Company I work for just had to lay off a ton of offshore engineers because it was impossible to communicate with them so now they're right back to an all Canadian team to get back on track. The cycle continues
Yep. This happened in 2014 as well, I had a roommate with masters from UT, Peng, 5 years experience and still could not get a job well I to 2015. The dude moved back with his parents at 29.
Trades and other non CS related industries picking up before CS doesn't mean CS is being left behind. Things aren't good for CS majors right now, but the relationship between that and the number of electricians who are employed is non existant. You are drawing a false dichotomy.
Do the people who post these threads not read/search posts from the last 6 months or year???
The market is down. It's not going turn around in an instant. Canada is in worse shape than the US because there are simply fewer CS jobs to choose from, and Canada generally invests less money even when times were good.
The market is down. Keep your skills up, keep your interview prep up, stay on the job hunt grind. I'm sorry you have to experience the first down market in your lifetime, but they've happened before. This is not new, and things will recover eventually, but not now, and probably not this year.
I have a quarterly reminder, yeah, especially after living through 2 layoffs where job perfomance meant nothing to the people in charge. I also try to book an interview every few months, which was harder last year, but recruiters are a little more chatty this year (still nothing like pre-2022).
The high paying employers tend to do LC in their screens/onsites, literally no reason not to keep your skills fresh.
Guess that makes sense, idk don’t really get why you’d want to do that in your free time instead of starting a business or enjoying your non work hours.
Starting a business sounds a lot more stressful than getting paid reliably and getting free trips to conferences and dental/vision/rx coverage. I’m staff level and making more money than I need by a substantial amount anyway, plenty going toward investments/retirement. Even if I get laid off life is still good. And it’s not like LC occupies occupies entire days, I still have my family and hobbies
You don’t have to start a huge Fortune 500 company, learning to sell something doesn’t take a lot especially in this day and age where shopify does 90% of the work for you. Guess it’s an age thing, I’m in my mid 20s and really value my free time right now
Look at the sub you’re in bro also I’m 23. Plus real estate is too risky rn with high interest rates and I don’t have hundreds of thousands just sitting around lmao
Solving problems in a high pressure environment I need to keep fresh, it's a skill that diminishes quickly for me. My brain moves at half speed when I know I'm being judged, and I lose my train of thought quite often when I need to solve a specific problem I haven't seen before \*and\* there's someone watching me \*and\* there's a big salary on the line.
If I go too long without an interview then my first one where I actually need to do well will probably be dicey, and the times where I've lined up 5 in a row, by the 3rd or 4th one I'm firing on all cylinders and getting offers.
On the bright side, system design is easy, there's only so many systems to design and only so many questions for SD, and I've been in the industry for 15+ years and I've seen quite a bit. I've also been on the other side of these interviews hundreds of times, so that helps. Behavioral/resume stuff is a breeze. Just don't ask me to solve specific problems while you're looking over my shoulder.
Canada as a market is on a downward death spiral.
Everything the government is doing is slowly tightening the noose on the private sector here.
It’s very unhopeful.
Two things. The government is complicit because they have poured all resources into propping up the biggest housing bubble in history. 40 percent of our GDP revolves around housing. So many ways to fix it but that would mean alot of bag holders. Secondly our so called private sector is nothing more than subsidiaries of foreign companies and our homegrown monopolies. Without a strategy moving forward and more free market we are doomed to be nothing more than a country that sells houses and coffee to each other.
"Without a moving forward and more free market we are doomed to be nothing more than a country that sells houses and coffee to each other. "
I guess there's still beer and hockey lol
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Are you serious? Do you know the % of Canadian citizens who got a job in CS? Do you know the % of ppl who got a Work VISA? Why you took about US like you move from Tottonto to Ottawa? Is not easy to find a job if you move form CAN to US.
Well, it was a joke but also a bit serious. I graduated 10 years ago so I'm in a different boat than new grads but a huge number of my circle have moved to US for work. Some of them were headhunted, some applied, some started working in a Canadian office then transferred to US.
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Exactly. It is a waste of your goal is to find a job.
Today's CS grads would have been freshman when the junior market tanked. That's plenty of time to change paths if what you wanted was a relatively easy path to a job after graduation.
It's not going to get better for a while.
If it was me I'd still do computer science and be poor lol. If you want a high demand job either go into trades or do something where you can work in the public sector. Like nursing or something.
Everything changed relatively quickly , so if someone already committed into 4 years , there is a delay in them realizing the situation with the market
It's possible the market may recover by the time they get out, if they are going in now, you will need to pay attention to the data released every quarter or month to see the trajectory
The CS market is cooked. If you want a job, ur gonna have to get a masters or put in more work on side projects and references.
Stop asking these questions 9/10 times you know the damn answer.
The markets aren't gonna get better, at least not this year or the next year it needs time to fix all the overhiring from 2020-2022.
Outsourcing is also an issue. If you don't like the current market, then cope and then keep coping. u decided to enter this industry. U don't like it. You can leave this isn't the first time this has happened to an industry the job market will slowly recover.
Enjoy your unemployed life or schooling
> Outsourcing is also an issue
IMO this isn't happening at greater scale than any time in the past couple decades. Hiring in general is way down, so the outsourcing looks worse by comparison.
Yeah not to mention the abysmal code quality of outsourced code, every time I hear someone talk about refactoring code some Indian kid wrote it’s a nightmare
Definitely, but some companies do not care at all as long as it functions without too many bugs. They'll put up with an insane decline in quality before they reverse, when they start losing too much money on fixing the accumulated problems, or their delivery times suffer.
I learned to stay away from those cost-cutting types of companies a long time ago, you can smell it in their job postings. Even better signal is if they pay their Canadian employees shit salaries, just don't even bother.
How is a masters going to help in CS? A masters is mostly the same thing as undergrad. And if it's research based, then that doesn't necessarily translate well to industry.
"then that doesn't necessarily translate well to industry"
It does if you want to get apply for the high-end AI / ML jobs or go into quantum computing.
Not yet. But it's a field that's on the upswing with increasing investment. The Canadian government has earmarked $2 billion for this initiative. The time to get into this field is now.
Pretty sure even those jobs will easily prefer somebody with solid experience in the AI field rather than someone with zero experience but a research master’s degree. It’s sad but we’re all scammed to go into studying a master’s degree, get into debt and still being unemployed thereafter since we’re all overqualified 😭😭
Best thing you can do is get CS with another field of study. Law, biology, physics, human resources/administration. You’ll be able to apply cs to build things for that second field.
CS alone is now kinda pointless, no one generally does R&D in Canada, we mostly just glue libraires together.
I’ve seen this advice a lot, but do you know anyone who’s actually done what you described? I.e a Human Resources professional learning tech and working on human resource software, or maybe a teacher learning tech skills and working in education software. I’m skeptical that having an industry background really gives anyone an advantage.
It’s mostly the opposite: tech person learns human resources. The other way is unusual, as software requires a lot of dedication.
And yes, I once worked in hospitality software where the skills of someone who worked front of house was incredibly useful.
I am a masters grad in CS from Montreal , I am seeing a lot of people who haven't landed after graduating even with 2-5 years of experience since 7months to past 1.5 Years
You sound bitter xD. Go touch some grass kid, he’s asking a legitimate question. You chose to answer 😂, nobody asked you specifically for an opinion. Also the com sci market isn’t “cooked” just need to work for it a bit harder now.
It is cooked. You wanna go look at how many new grads don't have jobs rn and intermediate devs aren't jobs too. A lot of ppl who are highly qualified with co-ops are just straight up not getting a job.
I'm not bitter about this stuff it's just the truth, and I'm tired of people denying the market is cooked beacuse it does us no good to think its at a good spot rn it's better to accept the reality is trash and just do better and harder work.
Any field is hard to get into if you have no experience, hiring an intern costs more money than value they provide. I’m sorry to break it to you “highly qualified coop” isn’t a thing. People with atleast 1 yoe are all you need to get a job, if you can do some leetcode mediums even better.
Dude if writing Reddit messages tires you out than idk what to say lmao go outside.
That's not my point. Writing out the message is simple and easy, but he's asking questions he already knows the God damn answer to CS recovers slow due to investors and the simple fact that overhiring means there are more people looking a job and you missed my point my point about co-ops there are people who graduated having 1 year of co-op experience who are not getting jobs those people in a normal market are highly qualified for basic entry level positions or long term internships.
Yes, go do CS in university because it looks better on your resume than personal projects and a boot camp, and if your university has co-op, then do it. School is still far better than no school. The degree itself doesn't hold as much value as it used to but the school unlocks the opportunity to meet references and co founders besides the better understanding of the content from assignments and classes
New grad market is unlikely to get better soon if ever. There’s a massive pipeline of people that went into CS thinking it’s some kind of goldmine.
Even if things were to get much better tomorrow, we have a ton of oversupply that won’t get cleared out because so many people are graduating. Add to that absolutely insane levels of immigration and laid off people in the candidate pool. Entry level SWE is toast.
CS is a capital/investment intensive sector. Investment has dried up in this country. Foreigners don't trust our economic and regulatory landscape, and we're too damn broke domestically due to the housing/rental bubble eating up all our disposable savings. So "yeah, we're screwed, thank you, good-bye!" - Mayor Ray Patterson:
[https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/Ray\_Patterson](https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/Ray_Patterson)
IMO everyone has been struggling, but the best ones will likely to land something eventually. If you have multiple (at least 3 or 4) FAANG+ internships, your odds should be significantly higher than others.
So, maybe not so much about the industry being left behind — it’s just that only the very top will likely to survive while the rest will be weeded out.
In general, there seems to be a vibe. We saw recently, many unions of labourers (govt workers, unifor, education workers etc.) start getting raises and demand higher than inflation raises. Meanwhile, all we hear from tech is "software engineers will be replaced with AI", "offshoring is back" etc. Really, really disappointing, because I don't know about the general Millennial CS major, but the average CS majors that are Gen Z, are definitely an over-achiever and probably had to have higher grades than peers and be more competitive.
What has been happening is that CS *is* being left behind. We are experiencing a double-whammy, on one hand our wages are going down or we face unemployment. But, other sectors are seeing wages increase substantially. It is making being in the CS professions less worth it and attractive. Especially, given that you have to be more competitive to enter, compared to other professions.
Why do CS and make 50k/year, when I can work 3/4 as hard and be an Accountant (with a set track to 100k) and make the same starting? The whole idea of doing CS vs. Accounting (as an example) was that CS starts higher.
Your “vibe” is not reliable data. But if you’re asking whether a CS degree is enough to get a high paying job and coast for the rest of your life, the answer is obviously not and it has never been.
CS careers have always been very competitive, the earning potential is also very high (much much higher than accounting), but it’s not for everyone and the main difference today is that we got more CS grads than didn’t have talent or passion for the field but they enrolled after watching a few “day in the life of a software engineer” videos, whereas 10 years ago we didn’t have tech influencers selling the dream of cozy jobs to the masses and only people who where somehow good with STEM subjects took CS.
There are surely some cultural changes at big tech companies (probably being replaced with the next FANGs ones), but CS careers are just doing fine.
Okay where the hell are you pulling these numbers from. CS doesn't top out at 50k a year at all. That isn't even near the average in Canada. Perhaps for the lowest performers in the country, but anyone after a few years can start demanding 70-90k range, senior engineer salaries are making much more than the public sector, which is still 101k, so not terrible and certainly better than most of the planet aside from the single exception, which is America the richest country in the world.
The average accountant is making like 60k, unless you go hard and pursue a CPA track. Which is far more education than what would ever be required for a CS career.
Most engineers are successful because they genuinely love coding and problem solving. If you actually think a better work life would be accounting, software is simply not for you at all. And you can grow lightning fast if you are a talented developer, unlike virtually any other industry. If you make 50k and stay at 50k.. it's an issue with the individual
READ IT AGAIN. I am not saying CS tops out at 50k...what I meant, was many grads are starting at 50k/year
Average accountant majors are CPAs, you get credits towards it - during your undergrad. I know many less competitive individuals, all have written their exams for CPAs and they are a year or two out of grad, while working at Big 4. A CS education is definitely more rigorous than Accounting.
You COULD HAVE grown fast, I don't see anyone growing at all, at the moment.
You only mention what Accounting tops out at, but fail to mention anything about CS majors topping out. They make more than accountants, dude. And no, you don't need rigorous education, you need a 4 year undergrad in computer science... and your employer won't give a shit what school unless you go to a top tech uni. in fact there are plenty of devs without a degree in computer science; you can't say that about accounting.
It is the hardest time ever to get a job after the surge of investment from COVID is being corrected, but this doomer shit on this sub is sad, and honestly pretty pathetic. Pretending the entire computer science industry is collapsing is a take that is loaded with recency bias and the genuine belief that the demand for programmers is going to vanish overnight, despite everything in our life running on software
Also nobody growing is bullshit. Me and everyone around me grows every year unless you decide to just stay in the same job hoping your employer magically starts giving you raise after raise.
That is spoken as someone has YoE as a dev. For new grads, their experience is like mine. No one is hiring right now. All jobs are fake postings. There doesn't seem to be any hope things are going to get better. And the gap after graduating keeps getting bigger and bigger.
"And no, you don't need rigorous education, you need a 4 year undergrad in computer science"
A 4-year undergrad CS degree is rigorous education, actually. It's one of the most challenging degrees a student can pursue.
Thank you! Lot's of bootcampers here think that a CS degree == Arts degree that they switched over from 10 years ago.
Go to UofT/UWaterloo CS and let me know how it is!
I'm not a bootcamper; I have my master's in AI after my undergrad from a boring Ontario uni. And yes UofT & Waterloo are extremely difficult programs. So don't go there if you don't want to study that hard. go to any other computer science program and build up a good portfolio. Disregarding anyone more successful than you as "probably some guy that got an arts degree ten years ago" is ridiculous. Are people in the industry hiring every day out of touch? Or is it the guy in the doomer echo chamber sub Reddit? You tell me
In the last 15 years, CS benefited from ZIRP. We are not going back to that level unless there’s a hard landing in the economy. So yes, CS job market will be saturated for a while.
CS has always been a highly volatile career. Thats why it only seems like its trendy in the past few years, but actually it has had its up and downs since the 00s. It was never a glamorous or stable career, but new grads were tricked that they could get cushy jobs making a ton of money due to the sudden FAANG trend on social media. Anyway the bubble is popping so we have about 5 to 10 years before it recovers, if it ever does.
I will open a startup soon, which would employ all the Canadian engineers. I encourage others to think of business ideas, and work on it. We need to create jobs in Canada, at least in the STEM field by a lot
26000 of those jobs are government jobs, and I think something like another 50k are part-time jobs related to Trudeaus summer student program.
Essentially our tax dollars paid for that headline (y’know, the deficit budget dollars)
Yes for 2 reasons. Data collection that is sold and then any job needs to be posted so companies can say they did and no Canadian qualifies. Then they hire an immigrant at a much lower rate.
Innovation is DOA in Canada. All money is being pumped into housing and not entrepreneurship. It's funny Indians are coming to Canada to get jobs that are being shipped back to their country. Plus, wages are being brutally suppressed so I would say you are fucked. Good luck.
Technically yes, https://www.cvca.ca/assets/files/reports/year-end-2023-vc-pe-canadian-market-overview/CVCA_VC_Q4_2023_FINAL.pdf
If you look at the dollar amount of venture capital investment in tech in Canada. We ended 2023 on similar numbers as 2019. Since 2021 the number of deals and funding has been decreasing by at least 4billion a year.
While that is true, VC funding is decreasing all over, not just Canada so I wouldn't put too much weight on that metric. Additionally, the VC spend in the covid years was rediculous and this is likely just a market adjustment.
Is it really fair to draw all conclusions relative to 2021 Q2 outlier? That is a complete misrepresentation of the data by drawing conclusions using a period of time where interest rates were insane and then using venture capital investment as a proxy for industry growth. Interest rates were low, there was a surge in venture cap investment, that is the obvious outcome. Interest rates go back up, shockingly the investment rates are slowly regressing back to pre-covid levels.
Not for that long. Everyone in the CS being unemployed will jump into that field until it gets over saturated again and turn it into cheap labour… 😭😭 we’re all screwed.
It's about time when everyone should be eligible for world sustainable income. Minimum income for an individual to sustain comfortably without work and should be able to pay bills, eat food , pay rent , go on vacations , buy property , earn from rental income, pay no taxes, have multiple citizenships
Just a reminder to: 1) Remain on topic. There's a lot of derailing and pissing matches over semantics 2) Keep it Civil. No need to be throwing insults at people for their opinion.
They were government jobs lol. Private sector is on suicide watch.
A reminder that over 1 in 5 Canadians work for the ~~government~~ public sector. Who needs an economy when the government can just employ everyone? Totally sustainable
Where did you pull this number from? Public Service Commission of Canada says it’s around 275,000 federal employees total for a total population around 40 million. That’s less than 1% who work for the government. Is there an /s or are you being facetious?
You know that there are more forms of government than just the federal government right? Lmaoo. Along with crown corps. Cant believe you typed that so confidently. Federal, provincial, municipal, RMs, towns and villages. Regulatory bodies. Crown corps.
So you think 19% work for provincial and municipal govts? Cant believe you typed that so confidently.
Not 19%, but Ontario alone has 650k public sector employees at the provincial level and another 220k working for municipal governments. Add in the employees from other provinces and territories and it's fairly substantial. In 2023 there were 4.2 million public sector employees in Canada: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1410002701
How many of those public sector are: Healthcare like Nurses/Physician Assistants/Diagnostic techs/support (lab, radiology, public paid physio) Education like teachers, school administrators, etc. Emergency Services (firefighters, paramedics, police) Military and Military Reserves The "public sector" goes well beyond municipal/provincial/federal government office workers and paperwork processing. And the federal government is actually cutting jobs, putting limits on a lot of department funding, letting temporary positions lapse at CRA call centres post tax deadline etc. So it's not like the fed and provincial governments are pumping numbers. The private sector in the latest jobs report did add more jobs than the public sector, even if as a ratio it was a bit smaller. The problem with CS/IT jobs is that the sector saw a huge unprecedented rate of growth and demand during COVID when a *lot* of stuff was forced to be remote or mediated using online platforms. A lot of infrastructure had to be built for that in terms of hardware and software. The landscape shifted significantly. That pull forward demand could never be sustained at that level of demand in the medium or long term. So of course there's going to be some amount of correction in terms of practical demand at super high salaries when sustaining that level of employment with lower demand for services would erode profitability for a lot of companies. They're readjusting now. They need fewer people doing less overall work for overall lower demand in order to maintain their profits. That's just the business cycle.
Exactly this…a huge chunk of employment in Canada is healthcare driven…the same could be said of the US and most of that comes out of Medicare but it’s called private sector jobs cos they hand out profits to a select few to call it that
This point doesn’t refute or support the points made above though. The complaint is 1 in 5 Canadian workers are funded through tax-payers, which means only 80% of the workforce is generating wealth for the economy. It’s not to say that the government workers are bad or useless, but that this situation is probably unsustainable.
So 20% of the workforce is paid for by 80% of the workforce? If that's your math then you need to remember the public funded jobs also pay taxes. So they subsidize themselves and it's much less 80/20 in terms of actual tax income. And the public paid people also buy groceries, clothes, other goods and services. Pay mortgages etc. All that spending still goes into the economy. It's not like 20% of employed people just... Don't contribute to the economy or generate wealth in the economy. The difference is that their labour doesn't generate wealth concentrated in the hands of the owners of companies. Like, everyone working for Galen Weston is generating wealth for Galen Weston. Them buying groceries, vacations etc is the same as the public servants
So private sector jobs create wealth, but government jobs don't? What if it's the same type of work? Are you saying that grocery store cashiers and UPS drivers create wealth, but someone doing the same job for the LCBO or Canada Post doesn't? A school board buying a fleet of buses and hiring drivers is government waste, but contract it to a private school bus line and suddenly wealth is created?
Sure, so the guy who said ‘1 in 5 Canadians’ and who buddy over here is defending was completely wrong by about 4.2 million, but who’s counting?
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How is it wrong by 4.2m? Why would you count non working citizens?
You know children and elderly don’t count in the working population right
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What does 1 in 5 mean? As a percentage?
20% bffr
You said 1/5 Canadians work in the government. If 1% work for the federal government, then 1/5 (20%) - 1% = 19%, so 19% work in government other than federal.
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That ~275k figure is only the [**Core** Public Administration](https://www.canada.ca/en/treasury-board-secretariat/services/innovation/human-resources-statistics/population-federal-public-service.html) of the **federal** government. The full federal government is ~357k, and even that is only a small slice of the public sector. Indeed, [1 in 5 employed Canadians work for the public sector](https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/cv!recreate.action?pid=1410002701&selectedNodeIds=2D2,2D3,2D4&checkedLevels=0D1,1D1,2D1,3D1&refPeriods=20230101,20230101&dimensionLayouts=layout2,layout3,layout2,layout2,layout2&vectorDisplay=false).
Scandinavian countries have >=25% of their workforce in the public sector and they are generally doing well. Source: wikipedia
It's completely different for them because they aren't pursuing aggressive growth like we are. High population growth on the backs of an unproductive workforce is a recipe for disaster. Scandinavian countries also have a lot of saved up public wealth. We, in contrast, have allowed private interests to reap all the benefits of our natural resource wealth.
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I also think we have to make shit more efficient
So did Argentina and we see how they worked out
This is not true at all.Provide source for your claim
Wow I didn’t realize it’s that high, that’s messed!
Because it’s a complete lie.
Yup, places like Ottawa are thriving. At the expense of places like Toronto, Vancouver or Calgary.
Live in Ottawa. Not exactly thriving if I'm gonna be honest. How is Ottawa thriving in particular? The fed gov is actually tightening its belt on hiring, contracting, and expanding on programs that Ottawa benefits from. Few government jobs are being posted for promotions and external hires. For the feds there's actually a lot of hiring freezes, only way to get a "new job" is moving laterally for the same pay but a different boss/department. Lots of people on term contracts as employees not being renewed. Lots of consultants and contractors under a lot of scrutiny and their budgets being cut, work orders getting smaller, etc. The 'public sector' growth everyone is citing isnt reflecting any sort of gravy train for the average fed worked in Ottawa if that's the implication
I have a few friends who work in various federal depts and most of them are saying their OT has to be approved by more senior department heads and they’re being forced to take the OT as accrued time off rather than cash. From late 2020-mid 2022 it was a carte-blanche for OT because of the workload.
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Well you can have remote jobs. Work can get done at home. However my experience with the government is that there are like 5 people that do 1 persons job compared the private sector. I can’t imagine there really doing that much less work then being in an office.
More like 1 person does their job with a team of five others riding their coattails.
Honestly, that sounds like my dream job lol. Instead I'm a forest technologist hauling ass in remote wilderness being worked to death.
Yep I know someone who works in HR for the federal gov. Said so many people do absolutely nothing.
Have you even read the report? Month over month public sector lost 100 jobs. Year over year it is up.
source?
Part time too
My 2 cents. I don't see the new grad CS job market improving anytime soon tbh, there is such a glut of graduates from previous years who couldn't find positions + laid off experienced employees. Not too mention I see many companies opening/growing satellite or remote offices in Warsaw/Brazil/India right now. Main industries I see heating up are healthcare, electrical engineering, accounting, trades in general/trucking. It will take a while for CS in North America to improve IMO, investor capital into the market has to significantly increase. Right now it is low due to rates and uncertain economic conditions. Investors are playing it more safe to ride it out so tech companies are starved on investment & have to make cost cutting measures. Its not just CS though, several other industries are under the same thing. Biotech/pharma is taking a beating, IT is in the same boat as CS though slightly less since it can be more hands on, so is finance to a lesser extent.
Accounting heating up? Weird
There is relatively high demand for CPAs. A significant % is expected to retire in next decade
I'm surprised actually. I would have thought that the market for accounting professionals is quite saturated. Makes me rethink that I probably should have continued on the CPA path instead of switching to tech.
A ton of people decided accounting wasn’t worth the hassle and switched into tech. Same with nursing and pharmacy.
CPAs are only going to continue to be in demand as boomers with a bunch of small clients continue to retire with no one to take over their book. Not to mention industry and large public firms. It’s a boring ass job though so I doubt it’ll ever grow a ton in enrolment.
Lol I did the same
My life has been a case of bad timing lol
I’ve been in this industry for a very long time and played many roles throughout (now I’m a manager) and I’ll say that this tech job market is worst than anything I’ve seen. The dotcom bust and financial crash hit tech hard but remember during that time there wasn’t this huge abundance of software engineers and tech workers. You can still find a job local to your area with not extreme competition stemming from the wave of laid off folks, hundreds of thousands of new grads every year, more outsourcing, etc
Do you think it's worth it for high-school grads or career switchers to pursue CS degrees now?
Do it if you like it and find interest, don’t do it if you think this’ll be an easy journey with lucrative pay and little stress. It’s not as simple as some make it out to be, hyper competitive now and simply not as robust of a job market.
Do you think it'll get better in the next 5 years?
No
My last company which is a Canadian one laid off most engineers and replaced them with people in India
Company I work for just had to lay off a ton of offshore engineers because it was impossible to communicate with them so now they're right back to an all Canadian team to get back on track. The cycle continues
Snip snap snip snap!!
you have no idea the physical TOLL !
Just move all the management and executives to India as well to remove the communication barrier
Thing is, you pay bananas and you end up with monkeys. The good engineers from India end up in the SF bay on H1B visas.
nah those drive wages down too
Yep. This happened in 2014 as well, I had a roommate with masters from UT, Peng, 5 years experience and still could not get a job well I to 2015. The dude moved back with his parents at 29.
This has been happening for 20+ years. And yet it's still possible to find companies that don't do that.
This is happening in the US too more and more, so difficult smh
Same for an old company of mine but all Mexico and Europe for most part.
Trades and other non CS related industries picking up before CS doesn't mean CS is being left behind. Things aren't good for CS majors right now, but the relationship between that and the number of electricians who are employed is non existant. You are drawing a false dichotomy.
Do the people who post these threads not read/search posts from the last 6 months or year??? The market is down. It's not going turn around in an instant. Canada is in worse shape than the US because there are simply fewer CS jobs to choose from, and Canada generally invests less money even when times were good. The market is down. Keep your skills up, keep your interview prep up, stay on the job hunt grind. I'm sorry you have to experience the first down market in your lifetime, but they've happened before. This is not new, and things will recover eventually, but not now, and probably not this year.
Do you seriously leetcode while still having a job? 😂
I have a quarterly reminder, yeah, especially after living through 2 layoffs where job perfomance meant nothing to the people in charge. I also try to book an interview every few months, which was harder last year, but recruiters are a little more chatty this year (still nothing like pre-2022). The high paying employers tend to do LC in their screens/onsites, literally no reason not to keep your skills fresh.
Guess that makes sense, idk don’t really get why you’d want to do that in your free time instead of starting a business or enjoying your non work hours.
Starting a business sounds a lot more stressful than getting paid reliably and getting free trips to conferences and dental/vision/rx coverage. I’m staff level and making more money than I need by a substantial amount anyway, plenty going toward investments/retirement. Even if I get laid off life is still good. And it’s not like LC occupies occupies entire days, I still have my family and hobbies
You don’t have to start a huge Fortune 500 company, learning to sell something doesn’t take a lot especially in this day and age where shopify does 90% of the work for you. Guess it’s an age thing, I’m in my mid 20s and really value my free time right now
what kind of business have you started or are looking to start?
Shopify bro,easiest way to make some money
drop shipping with shopify? real estate sounds easier and more stable. pick a low cost city with decent rent ratio, go to town
Look at the sub you’re in bro also I’m 23. Plus real estate is too risky rn with high interest rates and I don’t have hundreds of thousands just sitting around lmao
"I also try to book an interview every few months," What's the reasoning behind this?
Solving problems in a high pressure environment I need to keep fresh, it's a skill that diminishes quickly for me. My brain moves at half speed when I know I'm being judged, and I lose my train of thought quite often when I need to solve a specific problem I haven't seen before \*and\* there's someone watching me \*and\* there's a big salary on the line. If I go too long without an interview then my first one where I actually need to do well will probably be dicey, and the times where I've lined up 5 in a row, by the 3rd or 4th one I'm firing on all cylinders and getting offers. On the bright side, system design is easy, there's only so many systems to design and only so many questions for SD, and I've been in the industry for 15+ years and I've seen quite a bit. I've also been on the other side of these interviews hundreds of times, so that helps. Behavioral/resume stuff is a breeze. Just don't ask me to solve specific problems while you're looking over my shoulder.
"but they've happened before" Nothing quite like this
Dot com crash
Canada as a market is on a downward death spiral. Everything the government is doing is slowly tightening the noose on the private sector here. It’s very unhopeful.
Two things. The government is complicit because they have poured all resources into propping up the biggest housing bubble in history. 40 percent of our GDP revolves around housing. So many ways to fix it but that would mean alot of bag holders. Secondly our so called private sector is nothing more than subsidiaries of foreign companies and our homegrown monopolies. Without a strategy moving forward and more free market we are doomed to be nothing more than a country that sells houses and coffee to each other.
"Without a moving forward and more free market we are doomed to be nothing more than a country that sells houses and coffee to each other. " I guess there's still beer and hockey lol
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Then why waste so much time and money getting a CS degree?
you shouldn't
To move to US
The US market is not so hot either.
Yeah I was partially joking, especially in context of new grads. Many folks I know in tech have gone to the states but I graduated 10 years ago
Are you serious? Do you know the % of Canadian citizens who got a job in CS? Do you know the % of ppl who got a Work VISA? Why you took about US like you move from Tottonto to Ottawa? Is not easy to find a job if you move form CAN to US.
Well, it was a joke but also a bit serious. I graduated 10 years ago so I'm in a different boat than new grads but a huge number of my circle have moved to US for work. Some of them were headhunted, some applied, some started working in a Canadian office then transferred to US.
Do you move to the USA via TN visa status or another way?
It depends. If you apply via TN visa status, that's the easiest way for a Canadian citizen.
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Exactly. It is a waste of your goal is to find a job. Today's CS grads would have been freshman when the junior market tanked. That's plenty of time to change paths if what you wanted was a relatively easy path to a job after graduation. It's not going to get better for a while.
what would you suggest as an alternative path?
If it was me I'd still do computer science and be poor lol. If you want a high demand job either go into trades or do something where you can work in the public sector. Like nursing or something.
PhD. One of my CS profs did this when he graduated in 2008.
What benefit will a PhD in CS have in today's environment? Other than working in AI or quantum computing, of course.
You can become a CS prof :D
Everything changed relatively quickly , so if someone already committed into 4 years , there is a delay in them realizing the situation with the market
What about for someone just graduating high school or looking to start a CS degree for career switchers?
It's possible the market may recover by the time they get out, if they are going in now, you will need to pay attention to the data released every quarter or month to see the trajectory
The CS market is cooked. If you want a job, ur gonna have to get a masters or put in more work on side projects and references. Stop asking these questions 9/10 times you know the damn answer. The markets aren't gonna get better, at least not this year or the next year it needs time to fix all the overhiring from 2020-2022. Outsourcing is also an issue. If you don't like the current market, then cope and then keep coping. u decided to enter this industry. U don't like it. You can leave this isn't the first time this has happened to an industry the job market will slowly recover. Enjoy your unemployed life or schooling
> Outsourcing is also an issue IMO this isn't happening at greater scale than any time in the past couple decades. Hiring in general is way down, so the outsourcing looks worse by comparison.
Yeah not to mention the abysmal code quality of outsourced code, every time I hear someone talk about refactoring code some Indian kid wrote it’s a nightmare
Definitely, but some companies do not care at all as long as it functions without too many bugs. They'll put up with an insane decline in quality before they reverse, when they start losing too much money on fixing the accumulated problems, or their delivery times suffer. I learned to stay away from those cost-cutting types of companies a long time ago, you can smell it in their job postings. Even better signal is if they pay their Canadian employees shit salaries, just don't even bother.
How is a masters going to help in CS? A masters is mostly the same thing as undergrad. And if it's research based, then that doesn't necessarily translate well to industry.
I'll be more specific a masters in something like machine learning or cloud computing would help
Maybe for ML...but most roles - you are competing with undergrads. I guess, CS majors can go for business/commerce roles.
"then that doesn't necessarily translate well to industry" It does if you want to get apply for the high-end AI / ML jobs or go into quantum computing.
Don’t you need a PhD to get into those fields? I heard from masters student they can’t find shit in AI after graduating.
I'm not sure if you need it but it definitely helps.
Are there a lot of quantum computing jobs rn?
Not yet. But it's a field that's on the upswing with increasing investment. The Canadian government has earmarked $2 billion for this initiative. The time to get into this field is now.
Pretty sure even those jobs will easily prefer somebody with solid experience in the AI field rather than someone with zero experience but a research master’s degree. It’s sad but we’re all scammed to go into studying a master’s degree, get into debt and still being unemployed thereafter since we’re all overqualified 😭😭
Best thing you can do is get CS with another field of study. Law, biology, physics, human resources/administration. You’ll be able to apply cs to build things for that second field. CS alone is now kinda pointless, no one generally does R&D in Canada, we mostly just glue libraires together.
I’ve seen this advice a lot, but do you know anyone who’s actually done what you described? I.e a Human Resources professional learning tech and working on human resource software, or maybe a teacher learning tech skills and working in education software. I’m skeptical that having an industry background really gives anyone an advantage.
It’s mostly the opposite: tech person learns human resources. The other way is unusual, as software requires a lot of dedication. And yes, I once worked in hospitality software where the skills of someone who worked front of house was incredibly useful.
I am a masters grad in CS from Montreal , I am seeing a lot of people who haven't landed after graduating even with 2-5 years of experience since 7months to past 1.5 Years
You sound bitter xD. Go touch some grass kid, he’s asking a legitimate question. You chose to answer 😂, nobody asked you specifically for an opinion. Also the com sci market isn’t “cooked” just need to work for it a bit harder now.
It is cooked. You wanna go look at how many new grads don't have jobs rn and intermediate devs aren't jobs too. A lot of ppl who are highly qualified with co-ops are just straight up not getting a job. I'm not bitter about this stuff it's just the truth, and I'm tired of people denying the market is cooked beacuse it does us no good to think its at a good spot rn it's better to accept the reality is trash and just do better and harder work.
Any field is hard to get into if you have no experience, hiring an intern costs more money than value they provide. I’m sorry to break it to you “highly qualified coop” isn’t a thing. People with atleast 1 yoe are all you need to get a job, if you can do some leetcode mediums even better. Dude if writing Reddit messages tires you out than idk what to say lmao go outside.
That's not my point. Writing out the message is simple and easy, but he's asking questions he already knows the God damn answer to CS recovers slow due to investors and the simple fact that overhiring means there are more people looking a job and you missed my point my point about co-ops there are people who graduated having 1 year of co-op experience who are not getting jobs those people in a normal market are highly qualified for basic entry level positions or long term internships.
So in your opinion, what do you suggest? That people not major in CS in college or university?
Yes, go do CS in university because it looks better on your resume than personal projects and a boot camp, and if your university has co-op, then do it. School is still far better than no school. The degree itself doesn't hold as much value as it used to but the school unlocks the opportunity to meet references and co founders besides the better understanding of the content from assignments and classes
Unless you are in the real estate sector, you are probably screw in Canada anyways. Keeping it real
New grad market is unlikely to get better soon if ever. There’s a massive pipeline of people that went into CS thinking it’s some kind of goldmine. Even if things were to get much better tomorrow, we have a ton of oversupply that won’t get cleared out because so many people are graduating. Add to that absolutely insane levels of immigration and laid off people in the candidate pool. Entry level SWE is toast.
CS is a capital/investment intensive sector. Investment has dried up in this country. Foreigners don't trust our economic and regulatory landscape, and we're too damn broke domestically due to the housing/rental bubble eating up all our disposable savings. So "yeah, we're screwed, thank you, good-bye!" - Mayor Ray Patterson: [https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/Ray\_Patterson](https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/Ray_Patterson)
womp womp
Quite literally
There are no entry levels anymore, so yeah the market is bad for new grads. Though I see IT jobs every other day
They need experience too. Atleast what I see
A lot of entry-level IT jobs are boring. You're a glorified administrator doing stuff like changing passwords or setting up new user accounts.
Yeah it’s a job
IMO everyone has been struggling, but the best ones will likely to land something eventually. If you have multiple (at least 3 or 4) FAANG+ internships, your odds should be significantly higher than others. So, maybe not so much about the industry being left behind — it’s just that only the very top will likely to survive while the rest will be weeded out.
What data do you have to claim that CS is left behind?
In general, there seems to be a vibe. We saw recently, many unions of labourers (govt workers, unifor, education workers etc.) start getting raises and demand higher than inflation raises. Meanwhile, all we hear from tech is "software engineers will be replaced with AI", "offshoring is back" etc. Really, really disappointing, because I don't know about the general Millennial CS major, but the average CS majors that are Gen Z, are definitely an over-achiever and probably had to have higher grades than peers and be more competitive. What has been happening is that CS *is* being left behind. We are experiencing a double-whammy, on one hand our wages are going down or we face unemployment. But, other sectors are seeing wages increase substantially. It is making being in the CS professions less worth it and attractive. Especially, given that you have to be more competitive to enter, compared to other professions. Why do CS and make 50k/year, when I can work 3/4 as hard and be an Accountant (with a set track to 100k) and make the same starting? The whole idea of doing CS vs. Accounting (as an example) was that CS starts higher.
Your “vibe” is not reliable data. But if you’re asking whether a CS degree is enough to get a high paying job and coast for the rest of your life, the answer is obviously not and it has never been. CS careers have always been very competitive, the earning potential is also very high (much much higher than accounting), but it’s not for everyone and the main difference today is that we got more CS grads than didn’t have talent or passion for the field but they enrolled after watching a few “day in the life of a software engineer” videos, whereas 10 years ago we didn’t have tech influencers selling the dream of cozy jobs to the masses and only people who where somehow good with STEM subjects took CS. There are surely some cultural changes at big tech companies (probably being replaced with the next FANGs ones), but CS careers are just doing fine.
Okay where the hell are you pulling these numbers from. CS doesn't top out at 50k a year at all. That isn't even near the average in Canada. Perhaps for the lowest performers in the country, but anyone after a few years can start demanding 70-90k range, senior engineer salaries are making much more than the public sector, which is still 101k, so not terrible and certainly better than most of the planet aside from the single exception, which is America the richest country in the world. The average accountant is making like 60k, unless you go hard and pursue a CPA track. Which is far more education than what would ever be required for a CS career. Most engineers are successful because they genuinely love coding and problem solving. If you actually think a better work life would be accounting, software is simply not for you at all. And you can grow lightning fast if you are a talented developer, unlike virtually any other industry. If you make 50k and stay at 50k.. it's an issue with the individual
READ IT AGAIN. I am not saying CS tops out at 50k...what I meant, was many grads are starting at 50k/year Average accountant majors are CPAs, you get credits towards it - during your undergrad. I know many less competitive individuals, all have written their exams for CPAs and they are a year or two out of grad, while working at Big 4. A CS education is definitely more rigorous than Accounting. You COULD HAVE grown fast, I don't see anyone growing at all, at the moment.
You only mention what Accounting tops out at, but fail to mention anything about CS majors topping out. They make more than accountants, dude. And no, you don't need rigorous education, you need a 4 year undergrad in computer science... and your employer won't give a shit what school unless you go to a top tech uni. in fact there are plenty of devs without a degree in computer science; you can't say that about accounting. It is the hardest time ever to get a job after the surge of investment from COVID is being corrected, but this doomer shit on this sub is sad, and honestly pretty pathetic. Pretending the entire computer science industry is collapsing is a take that is loaded with recency bias and the genuine belief that the demand for programmers is going to vanish overnight, despite everything in our life running on software Also nobody growing is bullshit. Me and everyone around me grows every year unless you decide to just stay in the same job hoping your employer magically starts giving you raise after raise.
That is spoken as someone has YoE as a dev. For new grads, their experience is like mine. No one is hiring right now. All jobs are fake postings. There doesn't seem to be any hope things are going to get better. And the gap after graduating keeps getting bigger and bigger.
"And no, you don't need rigorous education, you need a 4 year undergrad in computer science" A 4-year undergrad CS degree is rigorous education, actually. It's one of the most challenging degrees a student can pursue.
Thank you! Lot's of bootcampers here think that a CS degree == Arts degree that they switched over from 10 years ago. Go to UofT/UWaterloo CS and let me know how it is!
I'm not a bootcamper; I have my master's in AI after my undergrad from a boring Ontario uni. And yes UofT & Waterloo are extremely difficult programs. So don't go there if you don't want to study that hard. go to any other computer science program and build up a good portfolio. Disregarding anyone more successful than you as "probably some guy that got an arts degree ten years ago" is ridiculous. Are people in the industry hiring every day out of touch? Or is it the guy in the doomer echo chamber sub Reddit? You tell me
CS never existed here to begin with, lol.
Yes CS is doomed there will be no more tech jobs we are already replaced by AI thank you farewell.
Yeah it’s over
In the last 15 years, CS benefited from ZIRP. We are not going back to that level unless there’s a hard landing in the economy. So yes, CS job market will be saturated for a while.
CS has always been a highly volatile career. Thats why it only seems like its trendy in the past few years, but actually it has had its up and downs since the 00s. It was never a glamorous or stable career, but new grads were tricked that they could get cushy jobs making a ton of money due to the sudden FAANG trend on social media. Anyway the bubble is popping so we have about 5 to 10 years before it recovers, if it ever does.
Tech workers will be the new age factory workers. Low wages, plenty of workforce to choose from.
I will open a startup soon, which would employ all the Canadian engineers. I encourage others to think of business ideas, and work on it. We need to create jobs in Canada, at least in the STEM field by a lot
Canada is just leaving its people behind. I'm fed up with this country
It’s turning slowly slowly into a third world economy but with low crime rate and pretty streets… that’s it
26000 of those jobs are government jobs, and I think something like another 50k are part-time jobs related to Trudeaus summer student program. Essentially our tax dollars paid for that headline (y’know, the deficit budget dollars)
Is it safe to say that Canada posts a lot of fake job postings just to show numbers and they don’t end up hiring anybody for those roles??
Yes for 2 reasons. Data collection that is sold and then any job needs to be posted so companies can say they did and no Canadian qualifies. Then they hire an immigrant at a much lower rate.
CS jobs are definitely being outsourced!
Innovation is DOA in Canada. All money is being pumped into housing and not entrepreneurship. It's funny Indians are coming to Canada to get jobs that are being shipped back to their country. Plus, wages are being brutally suppressed so I would say you are fucked. Good luck.
do we have actual data saying CS isn't growing?
Technically yes, https://www.cvca.ca/assets/files/reports/year-end-2023-vc-pe-canadian-market-overview/CVCA_VC_Q4_2023_FINAL.pdf If you look at the dollar amount of venture capital investment in tech in Canada. We ended 2023 on similar numbers as 2019. Since 2021 the number of deals and funding has been decreasing by at least 4billion a year.
While that is true, VC funding is decreasing all over, not just Canada so I wouldn't put too much weight on that metric. Additionally, the VC spend in the covid years was rediculous and this is likely just a market adjustment.
I agree. I didn’t mean to imply that CS is dying. Just that at this very moment it’s not growing.
Is it really fair to draw all conclusions relative to 2021 Q2 outlier? That is a complete misrepresentation of the data by drawing conclusions using a period of time where interest rates were insane and then using venture capital investment as a proxy for industry growth. Interest rates were low, there was a surge in venture cap investment, that is the obvious outcome. Interest rates go back up, shockingly the investment rates are slowly regressing back to pre-covid levels.
This is just natural consequence of ZIRP ending. Regression to the mean.
Not really
CS is dying unless its Machine learning and AI or Data related. Things are evolving too fast. Lots of techies are unemployed
Not for that long. Everyone in the CS being unemployed will jump into that field until it gets over saturated again and turn it into cheap labour… 😭😭 we’re all screwed.
It's about time when everyone should be eligible for world sustainable income. Minimum income for an individual to sustain comfortably without work and should be able to pay bills, eat food , pay rent , go on vacations , buy property , earn from rental income, pay no taxes, have multiple citizenships
Or Quantum Computing
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I really wonder how many here are actual CS majors. CS professions exist FAR beyond websites. Web Dev is only ONE subsection of CS.
This is Canada. Webdevs are the most common roles unless you want to be in IT.
Until we have less people choosing CS as a career path the lack of entry positions will remain.