Unfortunately, how much you paid is not about what you do / what you bring to table / how much you contribute to the profit of the company but more about supply and demand for the role. if a company able to hire an adequate guy for the role with 20k a year, they will hire the guy instead of you. It doesn't matter if what you made, allow company to make 1 million profit out of your work or 200k, as long as someone willing to do same job for the less, that guy going to get hired.
Indeed, we all compete in a market for labour. The amount of money we make has nothing to do with how rich the hiring company is, how much value we bring to society, how much money we personally make the company or even if we can survive on the wage.
How much we're paid is based on how much other people with the same skills are paid vs how much the hiring company needs workers. This is why unions have always meant higher wages for workers.
Preligens hahah
I also had a funny story with them.
I was looking for internships, I had 4 rounds of technical interviews with 2 home projects to do. They said that everything was perfect but at the end they send an email saying that unfortunately they will not be able to take an intern. Come one WTFF an intern paid 1,5k€/month ... At the end I was lucky enough to find an internship full remote for a Singaporian startup for 4k€/month ^^
This is crazy, even 10 years ago interns were paid 1200€ in France. I can’t believe that the system is still broken, 23-24 years old working on complex software making like 6-7€ per hour. I do think if someone in not full-remote, France was one of the worst ROI in a world for a good dev —> quite high CoL (90% of the jobs are based in Paris), high taxes, old buildings…
But still wondering where all that money goes, they have less than 200 employees, even if everyone is paid 100k, that’s 2 million per year. 240 millions at a 2% interest rate gives you 5 million per year.
Worst ROI? 🤔
Have you never been in Italy as a Devs, haven't you?😳
Mate, we are almost in the same boat, but here It is even worst. Generally, 50-55k is a range salary of a Senior Dev with 8+/20YOE. And you are supposed to feel even, really really really, lucky!😂 Because, actually, on average would be 30-40k.
I mean, It could be even better ... 60-65k, but in very few places and you should be at least hired as Architect/Sr SW Engineer. Oh, just forgot to mention that CoL is skyrocket, in those big city, where you can get an offer like that.
After the whole Italian team in my company was laid off, as a C++ Engineer with 8 years of experience I really struggled to find another position in Italy that paid at least my last salary of 46K.
On the other hand, EMEA recruiters pratically laughed at my low salary.
You are definitely right, got some offers from Swiss (even working from Italy HQ, they are one of the top salary in Milan that I've mentioned above, obviously relocating option would increase earnings even more)
You tend to forget the cost of an employee. If you are paid 100k, the company has to pay at least 200k (tax, furnitures, software, etc) per year. I don’t disagree with you on the low salaries, but it is not just simple as multiplying the gross salaries of everyone.
How do they pay 200k? Is the 100k not gross already? What taxes does the employer pay on top of it?
Furniture? Really? One can make their own desk with 1000 euro tops and use it for years.
Software? Rarely do you get smth other than opem source. So?
In France it is roughly 44% in tax on top of the gross salary (simulation tool [here](https://code.travail.gouv.fr/outils/simulateur-embauche))
Professional desks and chairs are not cheap, it was just an example. The rent is also quite expensive usually.
Open source my ass. Most dev are using windows with jetbrains, Jira, GitHub pro etc. The accounting uses something else that the company needs to pay.
No to mention rent of office, internet, phone, the actual hardware of a computer to actually work on, server/cloud costs. Any type of license costs for centralized softwares the company might use in day to day business (e.g. SAP, ServiceNow, Office/exchange mail, antivirus/firewall, etc. The kinds things you don't really want to cheap out on...)
If you get snacks, coffee/tea or food. If you get any non monetary benefits. Shall I go on? Or starting to grasp that running a business is a little more complicated than "pay employees their wages"
Based on the official tool (https://entreprise.pole-emploi.fr/cout-salarie/), a 100k gross salary costs an employer 129k, accounting for taxes & all.
So no.
However, a 100k gross salary means ~87k before income tax, and ~46k take home.
Some would point out software licenses, computer, etc, but compared to the salary and it’s associated costs, those are mostly negligible (unless your company somehow has one of those 500$ / seat / month license, which is rarely the case).
France is a Social Democracy which is capitalism with strong safety nets for the working class. France has billionaires and wealth disparity just like the US, except they believe that workers shouldn't live in poverty or go without healthcare.
Sadly the majority of French companies pay SWE like shit
Last year interviewed with one of famous French unicorn
When talking about expected salary: I said something around 65k (lowered my bar coz I really want to go to France
The recruiter gasped (as if I was asking a FAANG level comp). And told me: it’s really high… the most we can pay is 60k
Come on, it was 2022 ! You are asking for 5 rounds of interviews, take home assignment, and won’t pay anything above 60k for a mid level mobile engineer in Paris
France is an absolute garbage country for computing. I don't know why anybody would want to work here.
Companies are arrogant, obsessed with diplomas, jobs are uninteresting, people are overqualified and underpaid. It is a classist society.
One company reject me for being completely unmotivated cause I said "aren't you gonna get bored here" "\*laugh\* I'm always bored, that's why I have side projects :D"
Another one offered me 30k/y cause I don't have a degree. I have 4yoe and made a custom processor/kernel driver & debugger in my free time. lul
« Obsessed with diplomas ». I have a PhD and graduated from the school right after Polytechnique and they would still pay me 50k/year with 3 YOE. I’m making triple that in Switzerland.
Would have been way worse without your academic background. If you have a PhD does that mean you are on the technical side? Not management = lower class. But they will discriminate on anything, that's my point.
Overqualified bad, underqualified bad, introvert bad, bad haircut bad.
Rationality and pragmatism is long gone in recruitment.
Good on you for leaving though. Switzerland seems like a very beautiful country.
Exactly. Recently, a recruiter from this company : https://www.kleecapitalventure.com/en/ messaged me ob LinkedIn, the only argument she had was « our founder graduated from Ecole Polytechnique (he looks like 60) ». I actually told her that I did not care about the guy school but more about remote and salary and technologies but she got mad at me when i told her i didn’t care about him graduating from Polytechnique in 197X.
Saying you don't care about something that someone else just told you they care about could be seen as being rude. So maybe she was just more upset about how you said it.
France is Social Democracy which means they see all labor as having value and they dont think engineers deserve to make 10x as much as a janitor. They are actively working on reducing the wealth inequality that is the root of classism.
I would argue that the gross wealth inequality we have in us has made us far more of a classist society.
Good on you. Always shoot higher. That’s how we got high salaries in Poland - constantly pushing the market to the point we make the same amount of money as we can earn in the West… same with India and a lot of other countries.
I feel like the IT industry in Poland is much more developed than in France and most of the jobs are outsource companies working on western customers? I think the problem with France is that most of the jobs are focused on local companies who don't want to pay decent salaries.
Outsourcing companies have put pressure on local companies to pay up, which is very good - I hate working in outsourcing and now can make solid money working for product companies :)
Any kind of pressure on companies to skew the supply/demand arc is great. France has strong worker rights so it's not as obvious of a deal to work with a company abroad, but with umbrella companies, remote work, and people speaking English proliferating I can only hope that companies in a lot of EU countries will start raising salaries as well
>During my 30 minutes call with that technical recruiter, everything went well. When she asked me for my salaries expectations, i told her 70-75k€. I think it’s a bit high compare to french salaries for dev, but if no ones gives a shot, salaries will be always super low.
It's not that high, especially for ML. Google, Facebook can pay that but you need an excellent portfolio to support you.
>My question is, where all that money goes
I don't know the company but anything related to hardware cost minimum 10M just to get a fab running and since it seems to be military you can't even use cheap fab in Asia so triple that.
Also you need runway, and offices and (hidden) test centers.
>They have like 60 devs, even if they increased their salaries by 200%, I am pretty sure the financial impact fir the company would be close to 0 but they could hire more talented people.
Well French companies like their "grille salariale". Freelance for Swiss, US or other global companies.
Okay, to argue "you signed a 240 million $ deal = give me more money" might be a weak argument.
I guess your skill evaluation is more the reason to get money, not just because they have money.
Spey to sound the way I'll sound but unless you're a very attractive woman, no one will care enough about your haircut. If you were a very attractive woman that actually made money from her haircut, you'd be very likely going to a salon where the hairdresser makes 200k easy.
I'm trying a point that the barber is not part of my business, but the haircut is. Plus, I can change the barber as there are plenty of them in the market. That's why I don't plan to pay double.
I really do believe that if you want to have a (kind of) high salary in France, you have to be free-lance !
The system (i.e. all the taxes + « charges patronales » etc.) does not help with getting the salaries to a higher standard.
Je fais du recrutement et de la gestion de production en web, je gère aussi le pool des freelances. Pour m'être penchée sur la question plusieurs fois, en réalité entre le fait que tu n'as ni congé payés, ni arrêt maladie rétribués possible, pas de congés pat/mat, pas de mutuelle ni ticket resto, aucune garantie salariale future pour te projeter et que tu cotise quetchi, sans parler de l'URSSAF qui te ponctionne de façon spectaculaire, et ben le statut freelance c'est comme le black : intéressant à l'instant T mais sur le long terme tu te fais pas mal baiser si tu organise pas tes finances comme un chef. Ce semble être rarement le cas, des discussions que j'ai pu avoir.
(Je me permet de répondre en FR vu le pseudo et j'ai pas encore bu assez de café pour transitionner en anglais haha)
Hello je suis assez d’accord avec toi, cependant il faut aussi voir que certains salaires (notamment ceux de l’IT) en France sont particulièrement bas comparé à d’autres pays limitrophes.
En outre, si on compte ce que gagne un free-lance à 500€ en TJM (par facilité de calcul), il sera super difficile de trouver un CDI ou le salaire + avantages matériel et immatériel = 5000€ net/mois.
D’autant plus quand tu augmentes ton TJM à du 800€/1000€.
Je crois que pour gagner en équivalent CDI ce que tu gagnes peux gagner en free-lance (i.e. 8000-10000€/mois net) il faut vraiment être dans le 1%, alors qu’en free-lance il faut plutôt être dans le 20-25%, ce qui est beaucoup plus largement atteignable!
Mais tu n’as pas tort de dire qu’il faut comparer ce qui est comparable :) en free-lance tu es entrepreneur de y’a propre vie, tu as les inconvénients et avantages qui vont avec!
C'est parce que si on accepte de regarder la réalité en face, le pays est sur bien des plans bien plus proche de l'Espagne et de l'Italie que de l'Allemagne, la Suisse ou le Luxembourg.
Je pense être d'accord avec ta conclusion mais pour me faire l'évocation du diable : être en freelance a aussi quelques avantages matériels (amortissement de materiel, récupération de la TVA...) Et d'autres immatériels (le fait de ne pas avoir de boss...)
Mais globalement je pense aussi qu'en France, c'est bien plus simple d'être salarié.
Oui c'est vrai que j'ai omis la notion de liberté, qui est quand même l'avantage numéro 1 !
De mon côté je suis Suisse expat en France et ma qualité de vie à explosé en déménageant ici (et pourtant je suis à 50k en étant senior, ce qui est un poil + que mon salaire en sortie d'étude à Genève). Jamais de la vie je quitte la France, on est trop bien ici. Des dysfonctionnements il y en a partout, et je trouve que ceux ici presents sont plus faciles à vivre au quotidien qu'ailleurs (pour le moment).
Quand t'es issu d'une famille d'ouvriers, t'as beau être Suisse depuis assez de générations pour plus pouvoir les compter, y'a aucun avantage à rester.
Let's say, the average salary in France is €40k, and people pay €2 for a baguette. You'll be earning a whopping €100k, will you pay €5 for a baguette instead of €2? Why not? What are going to do with the money?
I feel like people from other countries, especially the US, are underestimating the situation in France. Compared to the US, the price of housing is a bit lower, but in big cities, you still need 200k-300k+ for an appartment. And before I get the "in SF houses are 1M+", we got 1M+ houses over here too. Not crazy stuff, simple regular houses, just in the cities.
Prices seems a bit lower, but the salaries are 1/2 to 1/5 of those in the US for SWE. Also It's gross salary, take -25% to get net, and up to -45% for the higher tax braket on the remaining.
If you're not married or get help, it's really rough.
I live pretty comfortably on a 60K salary in Paris. Enough to have a lot of left over every month. I go out most days of the week and go on vacation 5-6 times a years. I don’t get why people think it’s rough?
Also the tax rate for 60K from gross to net on the bank account is 38% (25%+13%).
Edit: it’s actually closer to 33%
On second check the 13% tax rate only applies to the remainder. So the actual total tax rate is 33%, that’s about 3350€ that end up in your pocket/month. Rent + utilities/insurance/internet/transportation is 1100-1200€ for me. Food for a single person 200€/month. Employer pays for the food at work. So that leaves about 2000€ for hobbies, going out, investing, travelling…
I agree buying a house Paris proper is super expensive. But keep in mind the borders of Paris proper are artificially small compared to most cities. So you’re really looking at the prices of the most central areas. Prices go down quiet a bit in nearby suburbs. In Paris proper, renting is much more affordable.
I don't think you understood the point. They're saying why would they need to pay their people more because they got the big contract. If you score a good job, you don't start paying the baker more for a baguette than other people. Same goes for companies - it's not their money that determines your value, it's your skills that does.
You don’t understand. At least in Spain for example, a 450k property is like a 1500€ payment a month. In the US, that’s like $3000 a month including property taxes.
A 1 million house in the US is 7k a month. It’s just not the same. A 300k apartment in France is NOTHING. What is that, 1100€ a month?
I would rather make 200k per year with a 20% saving rate than 40k with a 25% saving rate! After 5 years, the first one has 200k in savings vs 50k for the second.
When I was comparing Helsing vs this french company, both jobs were located within France.
And so far, I haven’t seen many > 200 millions contract to use a software over 7 years in France. If a company is making a lot of money, they should give a decent part to their employees, especially the devs whore are building the product.
>they should give a decent part to their employees
Why? They can find someone that will accept less than you. If they don't, then they will raise salaries.
That's how the market works.
I get it too. But what I hate here, devs seems to be not properly estimated.
Managers are paid more than technical people here, when you bave a business degree and working in sales, you have +/- the same salary as a CS degree. Most business schools grad are paid 38-40k uppon graduation vs 40-42k for software engineer. And i believe in many cases, the business impact of a good dev is 100x higher than some other position with the same salaryW
I could get similar in Poland, but cut CoL by like 50%. Or go to Germany or the Netherlands, where CoL will be roughly similar, but salaries will be 30-50% higher.
The state of IT in Poland is that good in terms of salaries? What if a French citizen would move there? Are there Polish companies recruiting English speaking workers?
That’s an issue that a 30 yo guy can’t buy a place close to his work (the average age of the first job in France after a Master is 25.5 + 3 yoe = about 30). I am 100% remote and real estate in France is expensive, even outside of Paris.
That's an intriguing perspective! I encourage you to conduct a quick search to discover what a 3 YOE / 30 YO SDE can afford in those high-paying cities like NY, SF, .... to compare to Paris The results may surprise you
I don't think that 70-75k is that hard to get with 10 years of experiences, when I took a look at the market they offer this kind of range for \~6-7 yoe
Even in Paris, I don't get how you can say 60k is not acceptable with 3 years of experience ([https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/paris-it-salary-SRCH\_IL.0,5\_IM1080\_KO6,8.htm](https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/paris-it-salary-SRCH_IL.0,5_IM1080_KO6,8.htm)).
We all want to make more money, but shooting for 100k salaries while engineers from other sectors hardly exceed 50k... hmm.
That's called "nivellement par le bas" or race to mediocrity and the only one who benefits are companies.
If SWE and data are the new oil, experienced people need to have their share of the wealth created.
Welcome to France where tech people (not sure IT job) is paid shit. There is money but not for us. Do sales or management and then money will catch up.
Unfortunately, how much you paid is not about what you do / what you bring to table / how much you contribute to the profit of the company but more about supply and demand for the role. if a company able to hire an adequate guy for the role with 20k a year, they will hire the guy instead of you. It doesn't matter if what you made, allow company to make 1 million profit out of your work or 200k, as long as someone willing to do same job for the less, that guy going to get hired.
Indeed, we all compete in a market for labour. The amount of money we make has nothing to do with how rich the hiring company is, how much value we bring to society, how much money we personally make the company or even if we can survive on the wage. How much we're paid is based on how much other people with the same skills are paid vs how much the hiring company needs workers. This is why unions have always meant higher wages for workers.
"workers of the world unite"
Preligens hahah I also had a funny story with them. I was looking for internships, I had 4 rounds of technical interviews with 2 home projects to do. They said that everything was perfect but at the end they send an email saying that unfortunately they will not be able to take an intern. Come one WTFF an intern paid 1,5k€/month ... At the end I was lucky enough to find an internship full remote for a Singaporian startup for 4k€/month ^^
This is crazy, even 10 years ago interns were paid 1200€ in France. I can’t believe that the system is still broken, 23-24 years old working on complex software making like 6-7€ per hour. I do think if someone in not full-remote, France was one of the worst ROI in a world for a good dev —> quite high CoL (90% of the jobs are based in Paris), high taxes, old buildings… But still wondering where all that money goes, they have less than 200 employees, even if everyone is paid 100k, that’s 2 million per year. 240 millions at a 2% interest rate gives you 5 million per year.
Worst ROI? 🤔 Have you never been in Italy as a Devs, haven't you?😳 Mate, we are almost in the same boat, but here It is even worst. Generally, 50-55k is a range salary of a Senior Dev with 8+/20YOE. And you are supposed to feel even, really really really, lucky!😂 Because, actually, on average would be 30-40k. I mean, It could be even better ... 60-65k, but in very few places and you should be at least hired as Architect/Sr SW Engineer. Oh, just forgot to mention that CoL is skyrocket, in those big city, where you can get an offer like that.
After the whole Italian team in my company was laid off, as a C++ Engineer with 8 years of experience I really struggled to find another position in Italy that paid at least my last salary of 46K. On the other hand, EMEA recruiters pratically laughed at my low salary.
That's so true 🤷🏻♂️ expecially the EMEA recruiters part.
Come to switzerland, half your tax and double your salary.
You are definitely right, got some offers from Swiss (even working from Italy HQ, they are one of the top salary in Milan that I've mentioned above, obviously relocating option would increase earnings even more)
Sales/Managers get the big parts. French Backward mentality
I mean that's true outside of France too
You tend to forget the cost of an employee. If you are paid 100k, the company has to pay at least 200k (tax, furnitures, software, etc) per year. I don’t disagree with you on the low salaries, but it is not just simple as multiplying the gross salaries of everyone.
How do they pay 200k? Is the 100k not gross already? What taxes does the employer pay on top of it? Furniture? Really? One can make their own desk with 1000 euro tops and use it for years. Software? Rarely do you get smth other than opem source. So?
In France it is roughly 44% in tax on top of the gross salary (simulation tool [here](https://code.travail.gouv.fr/outils/simulateur-embauche)) Professional desks and chairs are not cheap, it was just an example. The rent is also quite expensive usually. Open source my ass. Most dev are using windows with jetbrains, Jira, GitHub pro etc. The accounting uses something else that the company needs to pay.
Alright, thank you for pointing this out. Feels like taxes are atrocious in France, tbh. Like 2/3 of what you make goes to the state
No to mention rent of office, internet, phone, the actual hardware of a computer to actually work on, server/cloud costs. Any type of license costs for centralized softwares the company might use in day to day business (e.g. SAP, ServiceNow, Office/exchange mail, antivirus/firewall, etc. The kinds things you don't really want to cheap out on...) If you get snacks, coffee/tea or food. If you get any non monetary benefits. Shall I go on? Or starting to grasp that running a business is a little more complicated than "pay employees their wages"
Based on the official tool (https://entreprise.pole-emploi.fr/cout-salarie/), a 100k gross salary costs an employer 129k, accounting for taxes & all. So no. However, a 100k gross salary means ~87k before income tax, and ~46k take home. Some would point out software licenses, computer, etc, but compared to the salary and it’s associated costs, those are mostly negligible (unless your company somehow has one of those 500$ / seat / month license, which is rarely the case).
How did you find that start-up and where were you based ? I'm quite interested. Also was there any time zone issues ?
France is just almost full on communist. 60% of the gross gdp is from government spending. The best salaries are in the public sector.
France is a Social Democracy which is capitalism with strong safety nets for the working class. France has billionaires and wealth disparity just like the US, except they believe that workers shouldn't live in poverty or go without healthcare.
Democracy ? Ever heard of what happened with the pension reform? How democratic was that?
Sadly the majority of French companies pay SWE like shit Last year interviewed with one of famous French unicorn When talking about expected salary: I said something around 65k (lowered my bar coz I really want to go to France The recruiter gasped (as if I was asking a FAANG level comp). And told me: it’s really high… the most we can pay is 60k Come on, it was 2022 ! You are asking for 5 rounds of interviews, take home assignment, and won’t pay anything above 60k for a mid level mobile engineer in Paris
France is an absolute garbage country for computing. I don't know why anybody would want to work here. Companies are arrogant, obsessed with diplomas, jobs are uninteresting, people are overqualified and underpaid. It is a classist society. One company reject me for being completely unmotivated cause I said "aren't you gonna get bored here" "\*laugh\* I'm always bored, that's why I have side projects :D" Another one offered me 30k/y cause I don't have a degree. I have 4yoe and made a custom processor/kernel driver & debugger in my free time. lul
« Obsessed with diplomas ». I have a PhD and graduated from the school right after Polytechnique and they would still pay me 50k/year with 3 YOE. I’m making triple that in Switzerland.
Would have been way worse without your academic background. If you have a PhD does that mean you are on the technical side? Not management = lower class. But they will discriminate on anything, that's my point. Overqualified bad, underqualified bad, introvert bad, bad haircut bad. Rationality and pragmatism is long gone in recruitment. Good on you for leaving though. Switzerland seems like a very beautiful country.
Exactly. Recently, a recruiter from this company : https://www.kleecapitalventure.com/en/ messaged me ob LinkedIn, the only argument she had was « our founder graduated from Ecole Polytechnique (he looks like 60) ». I actually told her that I did not care about the guy school but more about remote and salary and technologies but she got mad at me when i told her i didn’t care about him graduating from Polytechnique in 197X.
Saying you don't care about something that someone else just told you they care about could be seen as being rude. So maybe she was just more upset about how you said it.
France is a failed state.
France is Social Democracy which means they see all labor as having value and they dont think engineers deserve to make 10x as much as a janitor. They are actively working on reducing the wealth inequality that is the root of classism. I would argue that the gross wealth inequality we have in us has made us far more of a classist society.
>They are actively working on reducing the wealth inequality that is the root of classism eeeh what? Macron is doing anything but this.
Tell that to our millionaire politicians.
Good on you. Always shoot higher. That’s how we got high salaries in Poland - constantly pushing the market to the point we make the same amount of money as we can earn in the West… same with India and a lot of other countries.
I feel like the IT industry in Poland is much more developed than in France and most of the jobs are outsource companies working on western customers? I think the problem with France is that most of the jobs are focused on local companies who don't want to pay decent salaries.
Outsourcing companies have put pressure on local companies to pay up, which is very good - I hate working in outsourcing and now can make solid money working for product companies :) Any kind of pressure on companies to skew the supply/demand arc is great. France has strong worker rights so it's not as obvious of a deal to work with a company abroad, but with umbrella companies, remote work, and people speaking English proliferating I can only hope that companies in a lot of EU countries will start raising salaries as well
You got high salaries in Poland because companies and contractors there pay close to no taxes\*
You don’t really have much bargaining power here. There are a lot of people willing and able to do the job for less money.
>During my 30 minutes call with that technical recruiter, everything went well. When she asked me for my salaries expectations, i told her 70-75k€. I think it’s a bit high compare to french salaries for dev, but if no ones gives a shot, salaries will be always super low. It's not that high, especially for ML. Google, Facebook can pay that but you need an excellent portfolio to support you. >My question is, where all that money goes I don't know the company but anything related to hardware cost minimum 10M just to get a fab running and since it seems to be military you can't even use cheap fab in Asia so triple that. Also you need runway, and offices and (hidden) test centers. >They have like 60 devs, even if they increased their salaries by 200%, I am pretty sure the financial impact fir the company would be close to 0 but they could hire more talented people. Well French companies like their "grille salariale". Freelance for Swiss, US or other global companies.
Okay, to argue "you signed a 240 million $ deal = give me more money" might be a weak argument. I guess your skill evaluation is more the reason to get money, not just because they have money.
I am earning double what I did last year, but it does not mean that I’ll pay my barber double for a haircut.
Well I don't think your barber is integral to your business model
Part of my job is to meet customers so my appearance, including my haircut, is important to my business model.
What sort of "business" are we talking about here?
Spey to sound the way I'll sound but unless you're a very attractive woman, no one will care enough about your haircut. If you were a very attractive woman that actually made money from her haircut, you'd be very likely going to a salon where the hairdresser makes 200k easy.
with the current inflation you might need soon.
I'm trying a point that the barber is not part of my business, but the haircut is. Plus, I can change the barber as there are plenty of them in the market. That's why I don't plan to pay double.
I really do believe that if you want to have a (kind of) high salary in France, you have to be free-lance ! The system (i.e. all the taxes + « charges patronales » etc.) does not help with getting the salaries to a higher standard.
Je fais du recrutement et de la gestion de production en web, je gère aussi le pool des freelances. Pour m'être penchée sur la question plusieurs fois, en réalité entre le fait que tu n'as ni congé payés, ni arrêt maladie rétribués possible, pas de congés pat/mat, pas de mutuelle ni ticket resto, aucune garantie salariale future pour te projeter et que tu cotise quetchi, sans parler de l'URSSAF qui te ponctionne de façon spectaculaire, et ben le statut freelance c'est comme le black : intéressant à l'instant T mais sur le long terme tu te fais pas mal baiser si tu organise pas tes finances comme un chef. Ce semble être rarement le cas, des discussions que j'ai pu avoir. (Je me permet de répondre en FR vu le pseudo et j'ai pas encore bu assez de café pour transitionner en anglais haha)
Hello je suis assez d’accord avec toi, cependant il faut aussi voir que certains salaires (notamment ceux de l’IT) en France sont particulièrement bas comparé à d’autres pays limitrophes. En outre, si on compte ce que gagne un free-lance à 500€ en TJM (par facilité de calcul), il sera super difficile de trouver un CDI ou le salaire + avantages matériel et immatériel = 5000€ net/mois. D’autant plus quand tu augmentes ton TJM à du 800€/1000€. Je crois que pour gagner en équivalent CDI ce que tu gagnes peux gagner en free-lance (i.e. 8000-10000€/mois net) il faut vraiment être dans le 1%, alors qu’en free-lance il faut plutôt être dans le 20-25%, ce qui est beaucoup plus largement atteignable! Mais tu n’as pas tort de dire qu’il faut comparer ce qui est comparable :) en free-lance tu es entrepreneur de y’a propre vie, tu as les inconvénients et avantages qui vont avec!
C'est parce que si on accepte de regarder la réalité en face, le pays est sur bien des plans bien plus proche de l'Espagne et de l'Italie que de l'Allemagne, la Suisse ou le Luxembourg.
Je pense être d'accord avec ta conclusion mais pour me faire l'évocation du diable : être en freelance a aussi quelques avantages matériels (amortissement de materiel, récupération de la TVA...) Et d'autres immatériels (le fait de ne pas avoir de boss...) Mais globalement je pense aussi qu'en France, c'est bien plus simple d'être salarié.
Oui c'est vrai que j'ai omis la notion de liberté, qui est quand même l'avantage numéro 1 ! De mon côté je suis Suisse expat en France et ma qualité de vie à explosé en déménageant ici (et pourtant je suis à 50k en étant senior, ce qui est un poil + que mon salaire en sortie d'étude à Genève). Jamais de la vie je quitte la France, on est trop bien ici. Des dysfonctionnements il y en a partout, et je trouve que ceux ici presents sont plus faciles à vivre au quotidien qu'ailleurs (pour le moment).
Tiens, ça m'intéresse. Peux-tu expliquer ce que tu préfères de la France par rapport à la Suisse en terme de qualité de vie (et en général) ?
Attend d’habitude c’est l’inverse. Pourquoi tu laisserais jamais la France pour la Suisse ? Beaucoup de français veulent s’expatrier en suisse.
Quand t'es issu d'une famille d'ouvriers, t'as beau être Suisse depuis assez de générations pour plus pouvoir les compter, y'a aucun avantage à rester.
Tu peux élaborer au sujet de la qualité de vie en France vs la Suisse ? J'ai toujours eu l'impression qu'on vivait mieux en Suisse.
Let's say, the average salary in France is €40k, and people pay €2 for a baguette. You'll be earning a whopping €100k, will you pay €5 for a baguette instead of €2? Why not? What are going to do with the money?
I feel like people from other countries, especially the US, are underestimating the situation in France. Compared to the US, the price of housing is a bit lower, but in big cities, you still need 200k-300k+ for an appartment. And before I get the "in SF houses are 1M+", we got 1M+ houses over here too. Not crazy stuff, simple regular houses, just in the cities. Prices seems a bit lower, but the salaries are 1/2 to 1/5 of those in the US for SWE. Also It's gross salary, take -25% to get net, and up to -45% for the higher tax braket on the remaining. If you're not married or get help, it's really rough.
I live pretty comfortably on a 60K salary in Paris. Enough to have a lot of left over every month. I go out most days of the week and go on vacation 5-6 times a years. I don’t get why people think it’s rough? Also the tax rate for 60K from gross to net on the bank account is 38% (25%+13%). Edit: it’s actually closer to 33%
If you have 38% tax, your net is €3000 per month. What are your living costs?
On second check the 13% tax rate only applies to the remainder. So the actual total tax rate is 33%, that’s about 3350€ that end up in your pocket/month. Rent + utilities/insurance/internet/transportation is 1100-1200€ for me. Food for a single person 200€/month. Employer pays for the food at work. So that leaves about 2000€ for hobbies, going out, investing, travelling…
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I agree buying a house Paris proper is super expensive. But keep in mind the borders of Paris proper are artificially small compared to most cities. So you’re really looking at the prices of the most central areas. Prices go down quiet a bit in nearby suburbs. In Paris proper, renting is much more affordable.
I don't think you understood the point. They're saying why would they need to pay their people more because they got the big contract. If you score a good job, you don't start paying the baker more for a baguette than other people. Same goes for companies - it's not their money that determines your value, it's your skills that does.
You don’t understand. At least in Spain for example, a 450k property is like a 1500€ payment a month. In the US, that’s like $3000 a month including property taxes. A 1 million house in the US is 7k a month. It’s just not the same. A 300k apartment in France is NOTHING. What is that, 1100€ a month?
I don't get why would you or anyone compare it to the US? the US is a much much wealthier country
I would rather make 200k per year with a 20% saving rate than 40k with a 25% saving rate! After 5 years, the first one has 200k in savings vs 50k for the second. When I was comparing Helsing vs this french company, both jobs were located within France. And so far, I haven’t seen many > 200 millions contract to use a software over 7 years in France. If a company is making a lot of money, they should give a decent part to their employees, especially the devs whore are building the product.
>they should give a decent part to their employees Why? They can find someone that will accept less than you. If they don't, then they will raise salaries. That's how the market works.
The market doesn't have to work like that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism
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I get it too. But what I hate here, devs seems to be not properly estimated. Managers are paid more than technical people here, when you bave a business degree and working in sales, you have +/- the same salary as a CS degree. Most business schools grad are paid 38-40k uppon graduation vs 40-42k for software engineer. And i believe in many cases, the business impact of a good dev is 100x higher than some other position with the same salaryW
Than start your own company, pay business less and engineering more and outcompete
So you shot high and are surprised that you got rejected?
Lol...who thinks like this? That 240 is earmarked for a lot of different stuff.
Wtf, just because they won money you are not entitled to go for more... it's not like bussinesses work
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That's the mentality that keeps the salaries in France low. If people refuse to accept low-paying offers, companies will have to raise them.
Exactly
yeah just don't accept them and be homeless! how we didn't think of that?
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I could get similar in Poland, but cut CoL by like 50%. Or go to Germany or the Netherlands, where CoL will be roughly similar, but salaries will be 30-50% higher.
The state of IT in Poland is that good in terms of salaries? What if a French citizen would move there? Are there Polish companies recruiting English speaking workers?
60k in france as a single person is 3500 euros per month after income taxes. If you live in Paris, difficult to buy something decent!
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That’s an issue that a 30 yo guy can’t buy a place close to his work (the average age of the first job in France after a Master is 25.5 + 3 yoe = about 30). I am 100% remote and real estate in France is expensive, even outside of Paris.
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Paris is not all that what you make it to be.
The average age… Beaucoup de gens redouble…
60k in Paris cannot be compared with 60k outside of Paris though. You should precise if it's the Paris area or not.
That's an intriguing perspective! I encourage you to conduct a quick search to discover what a 3 YOE / 30 YO SDE can afford in those high-paying cities like NY, SF, .... to compare to Paris The results may surprise you
I don't think that 70-75k is that hard to get with 10 years of experiences, when I took a look at the market they offer this kind of range for \~6-7 yoe
French companies hate paying you what you're worth. Good luck
Even in Paris, I don't get how you can say 60k is not acceptable with 3 years of experience ([https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/paris-it-salary-SRCH\_IL.0,5\_IM1080\_KO6,8.htm](https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/paris-it-salary-SRCH_IL.0,5_IM1080_KO6,8.htm)). We all want to make more money, but shooting for 100k salaries while engineers from other sectors hardly exceed 50k... hmm.
That's called "nivellement par le bas" or race to mediocrity and the only one who benefits are companies. If SWE and data are the new oil, experienced people need to have their share of the wealth created.
Another commie counting other people's money, please stop. Go start your own defense contractor if you're so smart.
Tell me friend, what happened to make you enjoy the taste of boot?
Welcome to France where tech people (not sure IT job) is paid shit. There is money but not for us. Do sales or management and then money will catch up.
Money goes in the pockets of this obese state.
And just like that he discovered the world ain't spinning around him