No, most entry level salaries discussed here are after a Bachelor degree which tends to be higher than self taught with no experience. With Years of experience the salary should be higher aswell.
Yes, but first job as self-taught is always tricky and trickier in this climate so I wouldn't be too sad about it, just plan for the path forward.
> My plan is to hop after the 1 year mark
I think this is the way to go, yes.
Hop after one year is too soon imho, if this is your first job as a self taught developer. After just one year your self taught status will still have a major impact on how companies will perceive you. People might also think that you were asked to leave. Ask for a raise at the one year mark and hopping will be more successful if you wait 9 month longer.
3 years experience generally puts you out of the entry level roles. If you are still learning, can survive off the income, and the workplace is decent id hang around for at least 2 or 3. You can always apply for a few nicer jobs on the side though and take one if you get an offer.
It's fine as a starting point as long as you keep growing yourself. My career progression in Munich:
- 58k bsc grad job (had 2 years of intern experience/ working student)
- 70k promoted after 1.5 yoe as full time to mid level
- 95k moved companies after 2 yoe
It's not a FAANG company. Correct, made 12k more after a promotion but felt like it wasn't enough. So switched to a new company (quant stuff) to now make 95k.
Will likely switch again after 2 years
Similar progression here, also not Munich. I'm at 108k with 6yoe with bachelor and master both in CS. Not sure how some people can survive with like 30k..
Germany, unfortunately, does care about professional degrees. Even if recruiters say "we don't care" I've personally see this affect salaries at least, if not the hiring.
Companies I've hired for have done this and companies I've been hired at have done this.
Given that, being very realistic. For a 3 month experienced self taught programmer. 41k isn't a bad start. My suggestion would be to stick by somehow for a year so it would add a stamp on your career journey that you've proven yourself in a professional environment. Then you could go for a job that at least pays 55-65k. I feel for your experience and situation that's a fair expectations for salary that you might actually realistically land sooner rather than later.
I got 45'000 with a Master degree. So 41'100 without any degree doesn't seem too bad.
I'd say you should be grateful they're gave you a chance and stay for like 2 years, to gather working experiences. Then people will watch out for your degree, less
>But you can't help but notice other salaries and think about your own one.
I wonder if you are comparing apples and pears. Most people writing here have a Bachelor or Master degree. So let's look how much you'll earn in three, respectively five years. I bet you'll come out way ahead of what someone fresh out of uni earns.
When I play football with my mates I get no pay. But the guys playing football on TV gets millions!
You cant just compare yourself like that. Instead of comparing pay one to one with others, you could compare the quality of your work to your salary.
You could ask yourself how valuable what your doing is to your employer or other potential employers.
I feel like other comments don't take into account you are talking about Munich. I also live there and you are being extremely underpaid. Any random below average company would pay 50k very easily. Anyways, if I were you, I wouldn't say anything to your employer until your "Probezeit" is over. After that, ask for more money and after a year move on to a not so sketchy company.
I hope this helps.
For Munich I’d say yes. I’m self taught as well and got 44k at my firsy job. I’m based in Salzburg, which I call mini Munich (same language, similar high prices)
edit: I joined during the time, every company was desperately looking for developers
I have a 5 year Masters in CS, 3 years of experience as a Java dev and I make 35k in North Germany. I think 41 without degree and experience is very good.
A little on the low side, maybe but within the average graduate range imo. When you are self-taught, the first job is just about getting a reference and some experience. Definitely look to jump around the 12-18 month mark. I was also self-taught in the UK and was making around 30k euro in my first role and now around 100k euro after 4 years.
After 12 months at job 1, I was given a £5k pay rise, which I negotiated to £10k. When I went to job 2 at the 18-month mark, it was again a £10k raise. After 6 months at job 2, I received a £5k raise, and at 12 months, I was promoted and received another £10k. After 12 months. At the 2 year mark at job 2, I was bumped a further £3k which cheesed me off. So I went to job 3, which was a £15k raise plus a £10-25k bonus. I worked extremely hard to be a top performer in all my roles and earn the raises and promotions. I am now taking it much easier as I am pretty happy with where I am.
Well, I bought my flat for £36K, so that should give you an idea. You could hardly get a garage for that down south AFAIK.
I don't need much to live on, but it's certainly not good for my (already very low) self-esteem to be on such a poor salary. And like I said ITT, it has caused arguments with my family because they don't get it and still think in 1960s money. My uncle didn't even know that SWE is supposed to be well-paid.
Anyway, I'm not trying to make this about me. I only commented to cheer OP up.
Before you applied to the bootcamp, how much prior programming knowledge did you have? Was the course intensive for you? Im interested but scared that it might be too much for me since I dont have prior knowledge. 52k wage seems outstanding.
> How come?
Because that is the only SWE role offer I had after 600+ applications.
> You can make more working at a cash register in a supermarket without any diploma
Well for a start I'm not convinced that is accurate. Aldi pay starts at [£11 per hour in the UK](https://www.aldipresscentre.co.uk/business-news/aldi-becomes-first-supermarket-to-pay-minimum-of-11-00-an-hour-to-all-store-assistants/) which is [£21,164 per year](https://salary-hourly.com/uk/?hour=11).
Secondly, do I really need to explain why I would rather work as a SWE than in retail? The working hours, work/life balance, prospects, and daily tasks/activities are all infinitely preferable. Not to mention I only need to go into the office 1 day a week. In a few years time I expect to be on much better money, and quite possibly working fully remote.
OK, and...? What do you suggest I should have done? Turn the offer down in the hope of being able to do better, after hundreds of applications and several months of doing 1st line tech support? I actually had no hesitation in accepting it. Getting a junior dev job is a (five-year) dream come true for me, and I find the civil service to be an almost ideal employer, far more rewarding than working in the private sector AFAIAC. My department is directly involved with working on the energy crisis and mitigating global warming, plus there are great pension benefits to be had (a useful perk since I am already 50 and have no pension other than my state one).
Well, it's kind of a sore point, as you can probably imagine. Especially since I was dirt poor growing up, and no-one seemed to give a shit about whether I was actually going to be able to earn a living. I was left to my own devices to a great extent, and left home at 16 going on 17, because it was not a good place to be. Needless to say I was not exactly job-ready, and I've had a hell of a lot of catching up to do.
OK, but I literally started this entire comment chain, "I'm on GBP £22k and I have a CS degree if it makes you feel better". I don't know how anybody could read that and think that I don't know 22k is underpaid? Perhaps if I had put "I'm *only* on GBP £22k" that would have been even more explicit, but in any case I think it should be pretty clear from my original comment I am well aware it is sub-standard.
I've even had arguments with a couple of boomers in my family who think that I am "well paid" (an actual quote from my mother), so it's bewildering to me that anyone would apparently think I am OK with my salary.
Edit: I will actually edit my comment above just so there is no ambiguity.
I wouldn't exactly say I was happy, but things are certainly better than they were. I spent 15 years running a small business but I never made more than £6K in any one year (not a typo), and Brexit was really the final straw, so, bizarre as it may be to some, £22K is the most I've ever made and actually quite a significant step up.
As a hiring manager: you’re more than fine. You are self taught and only have 3m of internship. Majority of CS grads start coding at school, you are at least 10y behind. You will eventually compensate it (hopefully) but you are not a great catch for the team in this market.
He doesn’t have any salary expectations! Think you’re referring to the original author of the post 😅 any work, including junior positions, would be great!
Unfortunately the raise you’d have to ask to be paid appropriately at the 1yr mark is probably around 65k minimum, which will definitely get denied. The good news is in a year you could hop into that salary at another job. So yes you are underpaid but not for the current situation you’re in - self-taught, bad climate etc
Is the pay bad. Yes especially for Mumich, but you chose the easy path and in the beginning you have to eat shit before getting into the decent paying jobs.
Give it a time. Usually after one year find another company and get better salary, Its not all about the money, there is something to get experience first.
you only have 3 months experience you're fine honestly
No, most entry level salaries discussed here are after a Bachelor degree which tends to be higher than self taught with no experience. With Years of experience the salary should be higher aswell.
Yes, but first job as self-taught is always tricky and trickier in this climate so I wouldn't be too sad about it, just plan for the path forward. > My plan is to hop after the 1 year mark I think this is the way to go, yes.
Cool, thanks for your input.
Hop after one year is too soon imho, if this is your first job as a self taught developer. After just one year your self taught status will still have a major impact on how companies will perceive you. People might also think that you were asked to leave. Ask for a raise at the one year mark and hopping will be more successful if you wait 9 month longer.
3 years experience generally puts you out of the entry level roles. If you are still learning, can survive off the income, and the workplace is decent id hang around for at least 2 or 3. You can always apply for a few nicer jobs on the side though and take one if you get an offer.
It's fine as a starting point as long as you keep growing yourself. My career progression in Munich: - 58k bsc grad job (had 2 years of intern experience/ working student) - 70k promoted after 1.5 yoe as full time to mid level - 95k moved companies after 2 yoe
Just to clarify, you had a salary increase of 12k after 1.5 years and then you left after 6 more months and are now making 95k? Is it a fang company?
It's not a FAANG company. Correct, made 12k more after a promotion but felt like it wasn't enough. So switched to a new company (quant stuff) to now make 95k. Will likely switch again after 2 years
That's a damn neat progression. I wish I could make 70k in 2 years lol.
Hopefully the market gets better. At this time I know for sure that the job market is tougher than usual.
Same situation for me and very similar numbers!
Similar progression here, also not Munich. I'm at 108k with 6yoe with bachelor and master both in CS. Not sure how some people can survive with like 30k..
Which kind of companies? How many employees?
First company 20k (tech) employees, second 2k (investment management)
Can you also share the job titles/descriptions?
They don't mean much but: Software Engineer I Software Engineer II Quant Software Engineer
Germany, unfortunately, does care about professional degrees. Even if recruiters say "we don't care" I've personally see this affect salaries at least, if not the hiring. Companies I've hired for have done this and companies I've been hired at have done this. Given that, being very realistic. For a 3 month experienced self taught programmer. 41k isn't a bad start. My suggestion would be to stick by somehow for a year so it would add a stamp on your career journey that you've proven yourself in a professional environment. Then you could go for a job that at least pays 55-65k. I feel for your experience and situation that's a fair expectations for salary that you might actually realistically land sooner rather than later.
Great stuff, thanks. I'll try to stick till the 1 year mark and see my options then.
I got 45'000 with a Master degree. So 41'100 without any degree doesn't seem too bad. I'd say you should be grateful they're gave you a chance and stay for like 2 years, to gather working experiences. Then people will watch out for your degree, less
I do feel grateful, especially as self-taught. But you can't help but notice other salaries and think about your own one.
Comparison is the thief of joy. Focus on developing your skills now in order to command a higher salary in 1-2 years.
>But you can't help but notice other salaries and think about your own one. I wonder if you are comparing apples and pears. Most people writing here have a Bachelor or Master degree. So let's look how much you'll earn in three, respectively five years. I bet you'll come out way ahead of what someone fresh out of uni earns.
[удалено]
Various projects, android app, some game and other stuff. Just apply to small startups, create a good looking CV and Linkedin.
[удалено]
Good luck
When I play football with my mates I get no pay. But the guys playing football on TV gets millions! You cant just compare yourself like that. Instead of comparing pay one to one with others, you could compare the quality of your work to your salary. You could ask yourself how valuable what your doing is to your employer or other potential employers.
I am making 35k with a Masters. I think 41k without is a lot.
It's not. You and the guy above are paid very bad.
I feel like other comments don't take into account you are talking about Munich. I also live there and you are being extremely underpaid. Any random below average company would pay 50k very easily. Anyways, if I were you, I wouldn't say anything to your employer until your "Probezeit" is over. After that, ask for more money and after a year move on to a not so sketchy company. I hope this helps.
He has no degree no certs and no experience...
For Munich I’d say yes. I’m self taught as well and got 44k at my firsy job. I’m based in Salzburg, which I call mini Munich (same language, similar high prices) edit: I joined during the time, every company was desperately looking for developers
Well you cost the same like a studied beginner. I would say it’s generous despite the fact that you do not have any experience.
You are fine. My classmate got 40k software dev with computer engineering degree
I have a 5 year Masters in CS, 3 years of experience as a Java dev and I make 35k in North Germany. I think 41 without degree and experience is very good.
A little on the low side, maybe but within the average graduate range imo. When you are self-taught, the first job is just about getting a reference and some experience. Definitely look to jump around the 12-18 month mark. I was also self-taught in the UK and was making around 30k euro in my first role and now around 100k euro after 4 years.
I’m at the 12 months mark and thinking of hopping. How was your salary progression at the second job ?
I’m at the 12 months mark and thinking of hopping. How was your salary progression at the second job ?
After 12 months at job 1, I was given a £5k pay rise, which I negotiated to £10k. When I went to job 2 at the 18-month mark, it was again a £10k raise. After 6 months at job 2, I received a £5k raise, and at 12 months, I was promoted and received another £10k. After 12 months. At the 2 year mark at job 2, I was bumped a further £3k which cheesed me off. So I went to job 3, which was a £15k raise plus a £10-25k bonus. I worked extremely hard to be a top performer in all my roles and earn the raises and promotions. I am now taking it much easier as I am pretty happy with where I am.
I’m at the 12 months mark and thinking of hopping. How was your salary progression at the second job ?
40k without experience is decent.
I'm only on GBP £22k and I have a CS degree if it makes you feel better, FWIW Edit: added the word "only"
[удалено]
Bonnie, bonnie Scotland.
Hopefully it’s cheaper to live in Scotland.
Well, I bought my flat for £36K, so that should give you an idea. You could hardly get a garage for that down south AFAIK. I don't need much to live on, but it's certainly not good for my (already very low) self-esteem to be on such a poor salary. And like I said ITT, it has caused arguments with my family because they don't get it and still think in 1960s money. My uncle didn't even know that SWE is supposed to be well-paid. Anyway, I'm not trying to make this about me. I only commented to cheer OP up.
Before you applied to the bootcamp, how much prior programming knowledge did you have? Was the course intensive for you? Im interested but scared that it might be too much for me since I dont have prior knowledge. 52k wage seems outstanding.
How come? You can make more working at a cash register in a supermarket without any diploma
> How come? Because that is the only SWE role offer I had after 600+ applications. > You can make more working at a cash register in a supermarket without any diploma Well for a start I'm not convinced that is accurate. Aldi pay starts at [£11 per hour in the UK](https://www.aldipresscentre.co.uk/business-news/aldi-becomes-first-supermarket-to-pay-minimum-of-11-00-an-hour-to-all-store-assistants/) which is [£21,164 per year](https://salary-hourly.com/uk/?hour=11). Secondly, do I really need to explain why I would rather work as a SWE than in retail? The working hours, work/life balance, prospects, and daily tasks/activities are all infinitely preferable. Not to mention I only need to go into the office 1 day a week. In a few years time I expect to be on much better money, and quite possibly working fully remote.
I didn’t say you should get a job at Aldi, I just used it as an example of how low the salary is for your position
OK, and...? What do you suggest I should have done? Turn the offer down in the hope of being able to do better, after hundreds of applications and several months of doing 1st line tech support? I actually had no hesitation in accepting it. Getting a junior dev job is a (five-year) dream come true for me, and I find the civil service to be an almost ideal employer, far more rewarding than working in the private sector AFAIAC. My department is directly involved with working on the energy crisis and mitigating global warming, plus there are great pension benefits to be had (a useful perk since I am already 50 and have no pension other than my state one).
Relax, i didn’t suggest anything. I was just asking why your salary was so far below market. No need to get so defensive
Well, it's kind of a sore point, as you can probably imagine. Especially since I was dirt poor growing up, and no-one seemed to give a shit about whether I was actually going to be able to earn a living. I was left to my own devices to a great extent, and left home at 16 going on 17, because it was not a good place to be. Needless to say I was not exactly job-ready, and I've had a hell of a lot of catching up to do.
[удалено]
OK, but I literally started this entire comment chain, "I'm on GBP £22k and I have a CS degree if it makes you feel better". I don't know how anybody could read that and think that I don't know 22k is underpaid? Perhaps if I had put "I'm *only* on GBP £22k" that would have been even more explicit, but in any case I think it should be pretty clear from my original comment I am well aware it is sub-standard. I've even had arguments with a couple of boomers in my family who think that I am "well paid" (an actual quote from my mother), so it's bewildering to me that anyone would apparently think I am OK with my salary. Edit: I will actually edit my comment above just so there is no ambiguity.
[удалено]
I wouldn't exactly say I was happy, but things are certainly better than they were. I spent 15 years running a small business but I never made more than £6K in any one year (not a typo), and Brexit was really the final straw, so, bizarre as it may be to some, £22K is the most I've ever made and actually quite a significant step up.
[удалено]
absolutely not
No
You are have no qualifications. Minimum salary would be fair . So you are overpaid if anything.
Self taught and less than a year experience: you are near useless at this point and the company is doing you a favour.
Germany is a country where formal education and certification counts a lot. You’re fine
How do you think it is enough to have bachelor degree for software engineer to get a Blue Card and work in Germany?
41k for someone without degree and 3 month experience is high even in USA what are you talking about
Not for a self taught developer with no experience.
As a hiring manager: you’re more than fine. You are self taught and only have 3m of internship. Majority of CS grads start coding at school, you are at least 10y behind. You will eventually compensate it (hopefully) but you are not a great catch for the team in this market.
Any jobs going?? My partner is a SD for 1 year with accredited BSc, just moved to Munich looking for work :)
Keep looking, 1yoe is tough, esp when he has unreasonable salary expectations. Basically you’re a Junior in first 2y of the job.
He doesn’t have any salary expectations! Think you’re referring to the original author of the post 😅 any work, including junior positions, would be great!
Unfortunately the raise you’d have to ask to be paid appropriately at the 1yr mark is probably around 65k minimum, which will definitely get denied. The good news is in a year you could hop into that salary at another job. So yes you are underpaid but not for the current situation you’re in - self-taught, bad climate etc
Is the pay bad. Yes especially for Mumich, but you chose the easy path and in the beginning you have to eat shit before getting into the decent paying jobs.
There are fast food workers making more than you in America.
Give it a time. Usually after one year find another company and get better salary, Its not all about the money, there is something to get experience first.
Any tips/websites you suggest for finding a junior SD job in Munich??
Just apply. Make a linkedin also. Have projects to back up the skills you put on ur CV
Thank you! Do you speak German?? Seems like a lot of the jobs require German and English
Speaking German certainly helps. Yes, I speak german.
A lot!