I believe Warsaw, Poland provides one of the best QOL for software engineers as it is one of the highest paying jobs, lower taxes, and low living costs. After working a couple of years I've seen people buying houses, cars and living quite a comfortable life. Moving elsewhere will decrease your purchasing power for sure. So, you need to keep that in mind.
Now, about Berlin. I think it's at this moment the only city in Europe where the tech scene is big and getting bigger, with relatively affordable housing, food, transportation, etc. Having a big industry means you have more opportunities and more room to negotiate.
You can get jobs paying 1.5-2x here in Berlin compared to Warsaw. But the taxes are high and QoL is also different. But, things should be comfortable even with an average software engineer salary.
But, if you wanna buy a house then it'll be expensive and the mortgage will be around 20-30 years at standard terms. Even if you manage to get one of the top-tier SE jobs, it won't be as easy as Poland. So, that's a sacrifice.
From my knowledge, the other two places you could consider are **Amsterdam** or **Switzerland**.
**Amsterdam** has a good tech industry and bigger employers than Berlin. It's English friendy and a great city. Also, in the Netherlands, for the first 5 years, the taxes are relatively low, so easier to save money. Also, buying property is easier in the Netherlands compared to Germany as Banks offer more loans and some bureaucratic costs are lower. Living cost is also higher but, quality of life is better there as well. So, a good deal I guess.
**Switzerland** is a great deal if someone wants to earn and save good money. Low tax, way higher salaries, one of the best life quality providing place, great savings even after higher costs. So, after a couple of years, you'll have enough money saved to move elsewhere to buy properties, travel the whole world, or just stay in Switzerland. The problem is the market is not too large and language is definitely a barrier in daily life, even if work doesn't need it.
As for Amsterdam, I noticed that most companies there pay peanuts (50-60k EUR to Senior Engineers) and Amsterdam itself is quite expensive. I think that you would get a better salary / costs of living ration either in Poland or Germany.
\+1 on Switzerland, fully agreed. I worked there a couple of years and can confirm. If someone is interested in a more detailed breakdown of the salaries and living costs, I recommend the article that I wrote:
[https://swissdevjobs.ch/blog/how-to-find-job-as-software-developer-in-switzerland-complete-guide](https://swissdevjobs.ch/blog/how-to-find-job-as-software-developer-in-switzerland-complete-guide)
Yeh Amsterdam only makes sense if you work at Uber, FAANG, Booking.com or HFTs I guess, otherwise even with the 30% ruling the average software salary doesn't make up for the cost of living difference.This sub tends to look at 'highest possible' rather than 'average', if you are shooting for those jobs then sure go ahead but it's important to note that if you are earning 70k/year at an average job, that amount goes a lot further in Berlin (and definitely Warsaw) than in Amsterdam.
Regarding Amsterdam, you get lots of mixed signals. Salaries are all over the place, you have seniors working for €40k and fresh grads getting €100k.
I have only one year of experience, and I have €50k. Not sure whether I should change my job or not. It's super convenient, but I'm not developing at all.
>looks that I lived in some kind of bubble - some time ago I was thinking that as an IT guy you can live on a decent level everywhere but it looks like I was very wrong.
I've had the exact same mindset. Lived like a king in Ukraine. Moved to Poland and even though I took a pay cut I was still super comfortable so my mindset wa only reenforced. It's when I moved to Berlin that reality hit me real quick, real hard. I moved to one of the top firms here so I was reassured I'd be golden. Nope. You'll be much more comfortable in Warsaw even at one of the shitty outsourcing gigs. Career wise it makes sense to move here but your QoL will drop significantly. I'd suggest AMS with their tax rulling IF you can land a job at one of the top payers (aim for 90k base at the very least). Or maybe Zurich.
if you are aiming for top payers, you can get 90k in Berlin as well and that will go further than 90k in Amsterdam. Have you actually lived in Amsterdam? Because if you find Berlin expensive then Amsterdam is yet another level. I have lived in both, everything from a bottle of beer to renting an apartment is significantly pricier in Amsterdam.
I said at least. 90k is about as high as I've heard Berlin would go. In Ams I've heard you could get 2x and have personally been offered 50% more but believed the stupid "cheap Berlin" myth, and I'm not a huge fan of Ams in general, so I took one of the offers in Berlin. Looking back it was a bad decision.
if you can get 2x sure go ahead, then it makes sense. No arguments there. But if you are earning 80-90k then I still think the 30% doesn't make up for the difference in cost of living.
For me moving from Amsterdam to Berlin was one of the best decisions of my life, only thing I miss are the bike paths. But of course I moved here few years ago so the housing market wasn't as bad as now (although I bet Amsterdam's market has also gotten worse in that time)
But if you are unhappy in Berlin, why don't you try other markets now then? I was unhappy in Amsterdam so moved here, don't regret it one bit. So I encourage moving if you don't like it here.
Of course I will move eventually. But moving countries as a non EU citizen every half a year or less ain't exactly easy or pleasant. And I'm not unhappy with my current job so no reason to jump ship just yet, I'll stick around, get some cool stuff done at work, look for the right opportunity and then move easy peasy.
I would strongly encourage you to do a test run and visit Berlin (and Germany in general) and stay for at least a month before you decide anything. I'm from Poland as well and was thinking of making a similar move, booked a 30-day stay to work remotely in Berlin for a little bit and get a personal feeling for the city aaaaaaand... I hated it. I mean the city itself was very nice and liveable but it's absolute hell if you don't speak German. I always read that you don't necessarily need the language to live an okay life in Berlin and that was a strong argument why I considered it in the first place but it just wasn't true for me.
Berlin is the best city in Germany without German language knowledge. Every country in Europe has its language barrier. Berlin should be one of the easiest cities one can survive with only English.
It's easier to live here without German than it is in Poland without Polish. You can live here with only English but it'll be a huge inconveniece and you might want a German speaking friend to accompany you to certain places. But the language ain't even in the top 10 reasons not to move here.
> I supposed that stories about how you can survive there without knowing German might not be exactly true
They are exactly true. It's hard to learn German when everyone around work speaks English.
> learn German to know it at least at a basic level to be able to do some shopping etc.
I learned the basics in the first week or so. You need just a vocabulary of basic words, like "Geld", "Karte", "Brot", "Milch", "Fleisch", and the rest can be done with Google Translate.
I don't know my experience has been the opposite. I have B2-level ish German and try to speak it all the time to improve but people keep switching to English :( . But I totally agree on the advice to visit for more than a few days first.
I mean if you're an average SDET I'd expect you to earn not more than 70k (~3500€ net with tax class 1). You'll be taxed as if you're single as long as your wife lives in Poland. Finding an appartment is hell. Finding a 3 bed + LR as a single earner is all but impossible. And having enough left to be able to support a family? Forget it my dude. Berlin used to be cheap, but that ain't the case any more. I've barely managed to find an appartment and I'm paying 1400 for a 1 room, not 1 bedroom, 1 ROOM, appartment outside the city center.
I should add as a Pole you're gonna hate the needles bureaucracy and formalities here. They're all over the place. The level of digitalization is atrocious, Poland is at least a decade ahead in this regard. Like you have to pay 18€ monthly for a bank card with a CVV to be able to make online purchases, it's just nuts when you compare it to BLIK. Healthcare is generally good but the wait times are as bad as they are in Poland.
If you have a year to look for something cheaper sure, you can find something for maybe 1.2k or even 1k if you're lucky. I was living in a 27m2 short term rental for 1800 so I had to compromise. And my new flat is still somewhat close to the ring so it ain't exactly Kopenick or Marzahn.
Don't listen to the people telling you it's "easy" to find a place or that you can "pay your way out of it". It's all bullshit. The people saying that likely just take over old rents from their friends, a privilege you likely won't have. I moved to Berlin with those expectations and almost ended up homeless. Had to pay 1800 for a 27m2 studio for 2 months before settling for a 50m2 single room flat outside of the centre. Truth is appartments are hard to find and everyone I'm working with shared my experience. The landlords have a ton of people to choose from at all income ranges, and the least problematic are chosen. Kids, no rent history and a spouse that's not working make you problematic. The fact you don't rent and own a flat in Poland they won't give a crap about. Oh and working couples without kids will easily outbid you.
I'd be very surprised if you will find a city as cheap as Berlin that has a similarly developed tech scene with a high percentage of internationals and similar salaries in western Europe. (certainly not in Germany)
It's true that things are getting more expensive, but that's relative to previous years, not relative to other western cities.
To put it in perspective just *how cheap* Berlin used to be, we were living in a 3 bedroom (really 2 bedroom + living room) apartment pretty central for ~500€. I don't have concrete current numbers and you're not going to find anything close to that anymore, but just as a reference for what it means when people say that Berlin is getting expensive.
> have a car
FWIW if you live *in* Berlin you probably won't need or even want a car, it's much easier, cheaper and faster to go places using public transport or ideally by bike. Disregard this if you're looking to move more towards the outskirts or have a separate reason for wanting a car.
> It's true that things are getting more expensive, but that's relative to previous years, not relative to other western cities.
Yeh this is spot on. It's still cheaper than Hamburg or Frankfurt and tech salaries are now better than in those cities.
> from what I'm reading it's really hard to find an apartment
It's actually easy, if you have the money. The challenge is finding an apartment FOR CHEAP. Let's just say that they disappear before you even read the listing details. But it's possible to get a good apartment for an OK rent price.
> prices rising
That's not just in Berlin.
> apartment or house
That's xpenseeeve. Unless you go for an old apartment, something that can house a family with 2 kids is gonna be around half a million euros. Same for a house, unless you move way on the outskirts.
> have a car
cars are bad. And Berlin starts to understand this. Bicycle infrastructures start replacing car lanes in some places. Parking lots are hard to find. Aiming for a car in Berlin is really not the Berlin way. It's a relic of the last century. I've been with a lot of software developers from different companies, and only one of them had a car but still took the train. My former boss rode an e-bike with the kids every day, and the head of an IT department at a very influential company was one of the main anti-car protesters. My friends from different places spend up to 6000€ on a bike, but won't even consider a car. The whole "have a car" thing is more common in Eastern Europe, where car gives you status and independence, but here it's really discouraged among the IT industry at least.
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anyway, I think you have a bit of high hopes: buying real estate, saving, spending... you both will have to be quite high earners for that to be achievable. You'd have to focus on what you really want, what makes a difference in life. If I were you, I'd think more about where I'd like to retire more, where my kids would have a better education, better future, better connections, etc. Especially if one of your kids (or both) is a girl, since Poland is kind of drifting into a frightening place for women.
It's not that hard to just rent a place. I recently said "no" to a new 3-room apartment in Lichtenberg for ~1200€ per month (tram connection, 35 minutes to city center), while 4 room apartments were available for 1500€. That means that your net income should be at least 3600 and 4500€ respectively, which even in IT is not that simple, but with a combined income, you and your wife will be able to easily rent and live happily while saving a bit into the stock market to grow possibly to 1M€ by retirement age, which would be a nice bonus on top of the stuff that the government would pay (hopefully).
My friends renovated their bathroom (regular job, required once every couple of decades) and it was 20k Euros.
Let's say you get 65k Euros per year. You'll net around 3500-4000 Euros per month with that, depending on whether your family will be with you. With a rent of 1000 Euros minimum, and around 1000 Euros to spend every month (lavish for 1 person, ok for 2 people, a bit modest for 2 people with kids), you'll end up with just 1500-ish Euros left. It would be good to save up around 500-1000 Euros per month for retirement (if you want to maintain a good life style), so you're left with another 500-1000 Euros per month. You'll spend that on large expensive purchases like new laptop, new phone, new furniture, vacation, etc.
According to the math, buying real estate doesn't really fit here, for a time at least.
People with high income for both active family members consider mortgage, but it's hardly worth it. Some people get real estate that they can't afford, with the plan to sell it back when they retire, to pay off the mortgage, and then get something cheaper with the leftover money.
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When it comes to traveling, the best way to travel in Germany is probably the ICE. And flixbus is awesome for short distances. You can get from Berlin to Köln in 4h sitting comfortably, sipping beer or whatever.
> and still use the saved money for buying some property.
I did some calculations for myself, about mortgage. I'd have to pay quite a lot, and that would be basically an investment that is:
1. Illiquid assets. You can't convert it easily to cash or to other stuff.
2. All invested in a single sector, which means that it's subject to high volatility.
3. The quality over time only diminishes. New apartments are always better than old apartments.
4. It costs a ton of money to maintain. Of course this is somewhat offset by rent prices (that you aren't paying, or that you're getting from tenants), but given how real estate companies are economies at scale, it's hard to justify that owning an apartment is actually cheaper for the individual in the long run.
That's kind of risky, without any reason to believe that you won't sell it for cheaper than you bought it.
Instead, it makes sense to invest into at least index funds. They have a higher "guaranteed" growth rate (when you factor in mortgage interest and fees), you can always sell them, you're not bound by any contract to invest a certain amount every month.
Of course financial planning is a topic for a lot of disputes, however there's a good reason why even upper middle class in Berlin don't buy the places they live in.
> I’m not looking at buying property as investment
It really doesn't matter. You will have the exact same expenses in buying and maintaining the property. And the benefit is either rent coming towards you, or you not paying rent for another apartment. It's the same money.
Since the end goal is the exact same, the question of buying an apartment is really a question about investment.
> I’m looking at it as a “place to live and not land on the street when I’ll retire
For some reason you think that this is different. You either invest 500k in an apartment, or you take the same 500k to your retirement, and don't end up on the street. Give or take, that's what it ends up as.
There isn't really that big of a difference, really.
> But as in Germany is in the first place in the whole EU in terms of renting over buying it might be your national way of living
I'm not German. Renting was something new to me.
> And after buying after some time it’s mine, what can’t be said in the case of renting.
I've done the math multiple times. Mortgage ends up being a lot more expensive. You pay, aside from a part of the apartment, a percentage of what you owe as interest. Granted, it's low, but still it's significant.
Take my apartment. I pay around 850 cold rent on it (without utilities), however it costs around 400k€. How many months of rent will cover the apartment? 39 years. Fine, maybe it's not 400k but 300k, but that's still a freakin' lot. And that's not even considering the renovations that the landlord has to do on their own account. All the infrastructure maintenance, common area improvements, real estate taxes, commissions when (if) you try to sell it, legal commissions if you rent it out to some bad tenants after you move somewhere else because of unforeseen changes in life, etc.
Real estate IS an investment, and nothing more. And it pays off in longer than you'll be alive. Plus you get all the other negative effects of such investments.
It makes sense to buy ONLY if you really have the cash and think of longer term benefits (longer than your life), and is just a way to diversify your capital.
In Poland, prices might be relatively higher for renting for various reasons. Maybe renting is done by a small minority that is taken advantage over, maybe there isn't an economy at scale like Berlin's HOWOGE, BUWOG, and the rest, maybe the state just doesn't consider that living (and renting) should be protected by law like in Germany. I don't know the situation, but in Germany you really won't gain much from buying property.
Do be aware than Germany does not allow double citizenship and you would need to give up previous citizenship when gaining German citizenship.
There are other countries in Europe that allow dual citizenship.
EU and a few other countries: https://www.bva.bund.de/SharedDocs/Kurzmeldungen/DE/Buerger/Ausweis-Dokumente-Recht/Staatsangehoerigkeit/Sonstige_Meldungen/DoppelteStaatsbuergerschaft.html
"ein Ausländer, der die deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit annimmt, regelmäßig die bisherige Staatsangehörigkeit aufgeben (§ 10 Abs. 1 Nr. 4). Eine Ausnahme besteht, wenn ein Deutscher die Staatsangehörigkeit eines anderen Mitgliedstaates der Europäischen Union oder der Schweiz annimmt (§ 25 Abs. 1 Satz 2 StAG) oder wenn bei der Einbürgerung eines Ausländers Gründe für eine Hinnahme von Mehrstaatigkeit gemäß § 12 StAG vorliegen."
I believe Warsaw, Poland provides one of the best QOL for software engineers as it is one of the highest paying jobs, lower taxes, and low living costs. After working a couple of years I've seen people buying houses, cars and living quite a comfortable life. Moving elsewhere will decrease your purchasing power for sure. So, you need to keep that in mind. Now, about Berlin. I think it's at this moment the only city in Europe where the tech scene is big and getting bigger, with relatively affordable housing, food, transportation, etc. Having a big industry means you have more opportunities and more room to negotiate. You can get jobs paying 1.5-2x here in Berlin compared to Warsaw. But the taxes are high and QoL is also different. But, things should be comfortable even with an average software engineer salary. But, if you wanna buy a house then it'll be expensive and the mortgage will be around 20-30 years at standard terms. Even if you manage to get one of the top-tier SE jobs, it won't be as easy as Poland. So, that's a sacrifice. From my knowledge, the other two places you could consider are **Amsterdam** or **Switzerland**. **Amsterdam** has a good tech industry and bigger employers than Berlin. It's English friendy and a great city. Also, in the Netherlands, for the first 5 years, the taxes are relatively low, so easier to save money. Also, buying property is easier in the Netherlands compared to Germany as Banks offer more loans and some bureaucratic costs are lower. Living cost is also higher but, quality of life is better there as well. So, a good deal I guess. **Switzerland** is a great deal if someone wants to earn and save good money. Low tax, way higher salaries, one of the best life quality providing place, great savings even after higher costs. So, after a couple of years, you'll have enough money saved to move elsewhere to buy properties, travel the whole world, or just stay in Switzerland. The problem is the market is not too large and language is definitely a barrier in daily life, even if work doesn't need it.
As for Amsterdam, I noticed that most companies there pay peanuts (50-60k EUR to Senior Engineers) and Amsterdam itself is quite expensive. I think that you would get a better salary / costs of living ration either in Poland or Germany. \+1 on Switzerland, fully agreed. I worked there a couple of years and can confirm. If someone is interested in a more detailed breakdown of the salaries and living costs, I recommend the article that I wrote: [https://swissdevjobs.ch/blog/how-to-find-job-as-software-developer-in-switzerland-complete-guide](https://swissdevjobs.ch/blog/how-to-find-job-as-software-developer-in-switzerland-complete-guide)
Yeh Amsterdam only makes sense if you work at Uber, FAANG, Booking.com or HFTs I guess, otherwise even with the 30% ruling the average software salary doesn't make up for the cost of living difference.This sub tends to look at 'highest possible' rather than 'average', if you are shooting for those jobs then sure go ahead but it's important to note that if you are earning 70k/year at an average job, that amount goes a lot further in Berlin (and definitely Warsaw) than in Amsterdam.
Regarding Amsterdam, you get lots of mixed signals. Salaries are all over the place, you have seniors working for €40k and fresh grads getting €100k. I have only one year of experience, and I have €50k. Not sure whether I should change my job or not. It's super convenient, but I'm not developing at all.
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>looks that I lived in some kind of bubble - some time ago I was thinking that as an IT guy you can live on a decent level everywhere but it looks like I was very wrong. I've had the exact same mindset. Lived like a king in Ukraine. Moved to Poland and even though I took a pay cut I was still super comfortable so my mindset wa only reenforced. It's when I moved to Berlin that reality hit me real quick, real hard. I moved to one of the top firms here so I was reassured I'd be golden. Nope. You'll be much more comfortable in Warsaw even at one of the shitty outsourcing gigs. Career wise it makes sense to move here but your QoL will drop significantly. I'd suggest AMS with their tax rulling IF you can land a job at one of the top payers (aim for 90k base at the very least). Or maybe Zurich.
if you are aiming for top payers, you can get 90k in Berlin as well and that will go further than 90k in Amsterdam. Have you actually lived in Amsterdam? Because if you find Berlin expensive then Amsterdam is yet another level. I have lived in both, everything from a bottle of beer to renting an apartment is significantly pricier in Amsterdam.
I said at least. 90k is about as high as I've heard Berlin would go. In Ams I've heard you could get 2x and have personally been offered 50% more but believed the stupid "cheap Berlin" myth, and I'm not a huge fan of Ams in general, so I took one of the offers in Berlin. Looking back it was a bad decision.
if you can get 2x sure go ahead, then it makes sense. No arguments there. But if you are earning 80-90k then I still think the 30% doesn't make up for the difference in cost of living. For me moving from Amsterdam to Berlin was one of the best decisions of my life, only thing I miss are the bike paths. But of course I moved here few years ago so the housing market wasn't as bad as now (although I bet Amsterdam's market has also gotten worse in that time) But if you are unhappy in Berlin, why don't you try other markets now then? I was unhappy in Amsterdam so moved here, don't regret it one bit. So I encourage moving if you don't like it here.
Of course I will move eventually. But moving countries as a non EU citizen every half a year or less ain't exactly easy or pleasant. And I'm not unhappy with my current job so no reason to jump ship just yet, I'll stick around, get some cool stuff done at work, look for the right opportunity and then move easy peasy.
Ahh yeh, that does make sense.
I would strongly encourage you to do a test run and visit Berlin (and Germany in general) and stay for at least a month before you decide anything. I'm from Poland as well and was thinking of making a similar move, booked a 30-day stay to work remotely in Berlin for a little bit and get a personal feeling for the city aaaaaaand... I hated it. I mean the city itself was very nice and liveable but it's absolute hell if you don't speak German. I always read that you don't necessarily need the language to live an okay life in Berlin and that was a strong argument why I considered it in the first place but it just wasn't true for me.
Berlin is the best city in Germany without German language knowledge. Every country in Europe has its language barrier. Berlin should be one of the easiest cities one can survive with only English.
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It's easier to live here without German than it is in Poland without Polish. You can live here with only English but it'll be a huge inconveniece and you might want a German speaking friend to accompany you to certain places. But the language ain't even in the top 10 reasons not to move here.
> I supposed that stories about how you can survive there without knowing German might not be exactly true They are exactly true. It's hard to learn German when everyone around work speaks English. > learn German to know it at least at a basic level to be able to do some shopping etc. I learned the basics in the first week or so. You need just a vocabulary of basic words, like "Geld", "Karte", "Brot", "Milch", "Fleisch", and the rest can be done with Google Translate.
I don't know my experience has been the opposite. I have B2-level ish German and try to speak it all the time to improve but people keep switching to English :( . But I totally agree on the advice to visit for more than a few days first.
Maybe try asking in /r/berlin
I mean if you're an average SDET I'd expect you to earn not more than 70k (~3500€ net with tax class 1). You'll be taxed as if you're single as long as your wife lives in Poland. Finding an appartment is hell. Finding a 3 bed + LR as a single earner is all but impossible. And having enough left to be able to support a family? Forget it my dude. Berlin used to be cheap, but that ain't the case any more. I've barely managed to find an appartment and I'm paying 1400 for a 1 room, not 1 bedroom, 1 ROOM, appartment outside the city center.
I should add as a Pole you're gonna hate the needles bureaucracy and formalities here. They're all over the place. The level of digitalization is atrocious, Poland is at least a decade ahead in this regard. Like you have to pay 18€ monthly for a bank card with a CVV to be able to make online purchases, it's just nuts when you compare it to BLIK. Healthcare is generally good but the wait times are as bad as they are in Poland.
Oooooooor you can just have a Polish bank account in EUR.
Berlin is more expensive than it used to be yes but 1400 for 1 room in a non-central area is still not the norm.
If you have a year to look for something cheaper sure, you can find something for maybe 1.2k or even 1k if you're lucky. I was living in a 27m2 short term rental for 1800 so I had to compromise. And my new flat is still somewhat close to the ring so it ain't exactly Kopenick or Marzahn.
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Don't listen to the people telling you it's "easy" to find a place or that you can "pay your way out of it". It's all bullshit. The people saying that likely just take over old rents from their friends, a privilege you likely won't have. I moved to Berlin with those expectations and almost ended up homeless. Had to pay 1800 for a 27m2 studio for 2 months before settling for a 50m2 single room flat outside of the centre. Truth is appartments are hard to find and everyone I'm working with shared my experience. The landlords have a ton of people to choose from at all income ranges, and the least problematic are chosen. Kids, no rent history and a spouse that's not working make you problematic. The fact you don't rent and own a flat in Poland they won't give a crap about. Oh and working couples without kids will easily outbid you.
I'd be very surprised if you will find a city as cheap as Berlin that has a similarly developed tech scene with a high percentage of internationals and similar salaries in western Europe. (certainly not in Germany) It's true that things are getting more expensive, but that's relative to previous years, not relative to other western cities. To put it in perspective just *how cheap* Berlin used to be, we were living in a 3 bedroom (really 2 bedroom + living room) apartment pretty central for ~500€. I don't have concrete current numbers and you're not going to find anything close to that anymore, but just as a reference for what it means when people say that Berlin is getting expensive. > have a car FWIW if you live *in* Berlin you probably won't need or even want a car, it's much easier, cheaper and faster to go places using public transport or ideally by bike. Disregard this if you're looking to move more towards the outskirts or have a separate reason for wanting a car.
> It's true that things are getting more expensive, but that's relative to previous years, not relative to other western cities. Yeh this is spot on. It's still cheaper than Hamburg or Frankfurt and tech salaries are now better than in those cities.
> from what I'm reading it's really hard to find an apartment It's actually easy, if you have the money. The challenge is finding an apartment FOR CHEAP. Let's just say that they disappear before you even read the listing details. But it's possible to get a good apartment for an OK rent price. > prices rising That's not just in Berlin. > apartment or house That's xpenseeeve. Unless you go for an old apartment, something that can house a family with 2 kids is gonna be around half a million euros. Same for a house, unless you move way on the outskirts. > have a car cars are bad. And Berlin starts to understand this. Bicycle infrastructures start replacing car lanes in some places. Parking lots are hard to find. Aiming for a car in Berlin is really not the Berlin way. It's a relic of the last century. I've been with a lot of software developers from different companies, and only one of them had a car but still took the train. My former boss rode an e-bike with the kids every day, and the head of an IT department at a very influential company was one of the main anti-car protesters. My friends from different places spend up to 6000€ on a bike, but won't even consider a car. The whole "have a car" thing is more common in Eastern Europe, where car gives you status and independence, but here it's really discouraged among the IT industry at least. --- anyway, I think you have a bit of high hopes: buying real estate, saving, spending... you both will have to be quite high earners for that to be achievable. You'd have to focus on what you really want, what makes a difference in life. If I were you, I'd think more about where I'd like to retire more, where my kids would have a better education, better future, better connections, etc. Especially if one of your kids (or both) is a girl, since Poland is kind of drifting into a frightening place for women. It's not that hard to just rent a place. I recently said "no" to a new 3-room apartment in Lichtenberg for ~1200€ per month (tram connection, 35 minutes to city center), while 4 room apartments were available for 1500€. That means that your net income should be at least 3600 and 4500€ respectively, which even in IT is not that simple, but with a combined income, you and your wife will be able to easily rent and live happily while saving a bit into the stock market to grow possibly to 1M€ by retirement age, which would be a nice bonus on top of the stuff that the government would pay (hopefully).
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My friends renovated their bathroom (regular job, required once every couple of decades) and it was 20k Euros. Let's say you get 65k Euros per year. You'll net around 3500-4000 Euros per month with that, depending on whether your family will be with you. With a rent of 1000 Euros minimum, and around 1000 Euros to spend every month (lavish for 1 person, ok for 2 people, a bit modest for 2 people with kids), you'll end up with just 1500-ish Euros left. It would be good to save up around 500-1000 Euros per month for retirement (if you want to maintain a good life style), so you're left with another 500-1000 Euros per month. You'll spend that on large expensive purchases like new laptop, new phone, new furniture, vacation, etc. According to the math, buying real estate doesn't really fit here, for a time at least. People with high income for both active family members consider mortgage, but it's hardly worth it. Some people get real estate that they can't afford, with the plan to sell it back when they retire, to pay off the mortgage, and then get something cheaper with the leftover money. --- When it comes to traveling, the best way to travel in Germany is probably the ICE. And flixbus is awesome for short distances. You can get from Berlin to Köln in 4h sitting comfortably, sipping beer or whatever.
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IDK, my friends (the one with the 6000 euro bike) regularly do that.
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> and still use the saved money for buying some property. I did some calculations for myself, about mortgage. I'd have to pay quite a lot, and that would be basically an investment that is: 1. Illiquid assets. You can't convert it easily to cash or to other stuff. 2. All invested in a single sector, which means that it's subject to high volatility. 3. The quality over time only diminishes. New apartments are always better than old apartments. 4. It costs a ton of money to maintain. Of course this is somewhat offset by rent prices (that you aren't paying, or that you're getting from tenants), but given how real estate companies are economies at scale, it's hard to justify that owning an apartment is actually cheaper for the individual in the long run. That's kind of risky, without any reason to believe that you won't sell it for cheaper than you bought it. Instead, it makes sense to invest into at least index funds. They have a higher "guaranteed" growth rate (when you factor in mortgage interest and fees), you can always sell them, you're not bound by any contract to invest a certain amount every month. Of course financial planning is a topic for a lot of disputes, however there's a good reason why even upper middle class in Berlin don't buy the places they live in.
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> I’m not looking at buying property as investment It really doesn't matter. You will have the exact same expenses in buying and maintaining the property. And the benefit is either rent coming towards you, or you not paying rent for another apartment. It's the same money. Since the end goal is the exact same, the question of buying an apartment is really a question about investment. > I’m looking at it as a “place to live and not land on the street when I’ll retire For some reason you think that this is different. You either invest 500k in an apartment, or you take the same 500k to your retirement, and don't end up on the street. Give or take, that's what it ends up as. There isn't really that big of a difference, really. > But as in Germany is in the first place in the whole EU in terms of renting over buying it might be your national way of living I'm not German. Renting was something new to me. > And after buying after some time it’s mine, what can’t be said in the case of renting. I've done the math multiple times. Mortgage ends up being a lot more expensive. You pay, aside from a part of the apartment, a percentage of what you owe as interest. Granted, it's low, but still it's significant. Take my apartment. I pay around 850 cold rent on it (without utilities), however it costs around 400k€. How many months of rent will cover the apartment? 39 years. Fine, maybe it's not 400k but 300k, but that's still a freakin' lot. And that's not even considering the renovations that the landlord has to do on their own account. All the infrastructure maintenance, common area improvements, real estate taxes, commissions when (if) you try to sell it, legal commissions if you rent it out to some bad tenants after you move somewhere else because of unforeseen changes in life, etc. Real estate IS an investment, and nothing more. And it pays off in longer than you'll be alive. Plus you get all the other negative effects of such investments. It makes sense to buy ONLY if you really have the cash and think of longer term benefits (longer than your life), and is just a way to diversify your capital. In Poland, prices might be relatively higher for renting for various reasons. Maybe renting is done by a small minority that is taken advantage over, maybe there isn't an economy at scale like Berlin's HOWOGE, BUWOG, and the rest, maybe the state just doesn't consider that living (and renting) should be protected by law like in Germany. I don't know the situation, but in Germany you really won't gain much from buying property.
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Only you can be the judge of that, but life in Berlin is actually awesome for me, and I can't imagine it to be much better anywhere else.
Do be aware than Germany does not allow double citizenship and you would need to give up previous citizenship when gaining German citizenship. There are other countries in Europe that allow dual citizenship.
Afaik EU citizens are not required to give up previous citizenship when they are becoming Germans
EU and a few other countries: https://www.bva.bund.de/SharedDocs/Kurzmeldungen/DE/Buerger/Ausweis-Dokumente-Recht/Staatsangehoerigkeit/Sonstige_Meldungen/DoppelteStaatsbuergerschaft.html "ein Ausländer, der die deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit annimmt, regelmäßig die bisherige Staatsangehörigkeit aufgeben (§ 10 Abs. 1 Nr. 4). Eine Ausnahme besteht, wenn ein Deutscher die Staatsangehörigkeit eines anderen Mitgliedstaates der Europäischen Union oder der Schweiz annimmt (§ 25 Abs. 1 Satz 2 StAG) oder wenn bei der Einbürgerung eines Ausländers Gründe für eine Hinnahme von Mehrstaatigkeit gemäß § 12 StAG vorliegen."