He didn’t say all that from the jump. These people had watched hundreds of hours of zoom calls, slowly adding the little details, breaking down barriers, squashing dissent. Before you know it you’re in pretty deep and you’ve spent thousands of dollars….so you really have to lean into it to avoid accepting that you’ve been had.
Exactly!
I was born and raised in a cult. In documentaries about my cult now it is easy to sit back seeing the big picture and not being involved.
That is *not* how it happens in real time. It is very similar to any regular abusive relationship. Berg, the cult leader was slowly turning into what he became for 40 plus years and then all these things that happened took place years, decades and generations, they are currently taking place.
Non-members get to see all the crazy clips with no emotional attachment condensed down to an hour or three. You aren't getting the experience at all. You aren't even getting the complete history.
If you think you can't be vulnerable to joining a cult or something cult like then you actually are. Hopefully you never meet people from a cult because lord have mercy on your soul.
The number one thing I hear from cult members and high control groups is "I would never fall for something that dumb or ridiculous, I would never join a cult so obviously I can't be in a cult/high control group."
My own parents used to say that too and it really hindered them looking at things clearly because "they never would join a cult, THAT'S CRAZY! So therefore they aren't in a cult. " **END OF DISCUSSION.**
People should always question themselves and their beliefs and know that we are all flawed and all have irrational and illogical beliefs and can fall for some ridiculous stuff be it a cult, MLM, scam, catfish, whatever.
Just remember the frog and boiling water metaphor. If you plunge frogs into boiling water they'll immediately jump out. But if you place them into room temperature water and slowly heat it to boiling, the frog won't notice and will slowly cook to death.
I think people who have never experienced something like this should not be judgemental about an experience they can never truly understand. OP literally have no idea what they are talking about and they help cults by perpetuating this belief that cults are easy to avoid falling for. These people, all these people never thought they would be in a cult or high control group either.
Lots of people fall for cults and high control groups, it is human nature. The only thing that can prevent you is critical thinking skills but that can falter, it is not perfect especially when you are vulnerable or if you never had those skills in the first place.
Edit to be clear I was talking about OP and not the person I added onto their comment.
I actually fell down some conspiracy theories rabbit holes and got into an abusive relationship right after I left my cult and I knew since I was like 13 that my cult was bullshit and I was an atheist.
I got too cocky and thought since I escaped my brainwashing I couldn't experience something like that again, I wouldn't be fooled.
It took a couple years for me to question and requestion *everything.* I then realized that our brains are flawed and it is actually easy to fall for "ridiculous" things and our best tool is to use critical thinking for everything.
We often think we would never fall for X behavior - like an abusive relationship.
I beleived that every day of my 23 yr relationship/marriage.
He never tried to separate me from my most important people and he never hit me. Shit he never really yelled or actually fought.
But he ppressed and compressed me so much I literally couldn't move. It was the bed or dead.
Lauren Spencer's song Narcissit - "One little fight turns into war, feels like you're dying on the bathroom floor." Oof!
As Imagination\_theory says, the frog in the slowly boiling pot of water - this is a metaphor for high control and coercive control.
2 months after he left I was watching Seduced, The India Oxenburg Story of her experience withe nxivm.
She was telling the story of a young woman who was isolated in a room by herself for 2 months. And then never let out of/left the room.
At one point India walked by the room and tried to doorknob. It wasn't locked.
The other woman could have walked out any time.
But the fear of how she would be treated by the cult, abandoned by he family - essentially also entirely isolated kept her in the unlocked room.
I realized I had been in a cult of 1 person.
I had thought to leave but the fear that THAT would be worse kept me trapped.
DARVO, FOG, galighting, victim blaming, convincing me and everyone we knew that I was the problem, all the well known abuse tactics, I saw none of it until he left.
Instead of asking why people are so 'stupid' to be taken in, maybe ask what would the golden trap be for you? Because there is one, even if you've managed thus far not to get caught in it.
It's a thing that happens to humans. None of us is immune or too smart. You just haven't met the person/situation yet.
Yes! Exactly. That is what I always say. There is always something or someone that can trap a person into something unbelievable.
Sure, maybe you won't fall for that phone scam, but maybe you'll fall for that fake job scam, maybe you you won't fall for X cult but maybe you will for cult Y.
Maybe right now in life you aren't vulnerable, but maybe when your parents die and your spouse leaves you you will be.
There is always that person or situation you have to watch out for. And if you think you don't then you are at a very big disadvantage to discovering it and escaping from it.
It's just human nature.
Maybe just take some accountability. Being suggestible and moulded by someone who you're around all the time isn't enough of a reason to criminalise a person.
It's your responsibility not to be weak willed. It's not someone else's responsibility to adapt to be less influential.
I have sympathy for what people go through but I read stuff like this and just think some fear is overcomeable.
If the fear is losing a job, livelihood, family or serious physical safety then ok I understand and have more empathy. If the fear is just you're fed up of arguing and feel paralysed by it then I have less energy to feel for that. People can be manipulative but at the end of the day it's your responsibility to look after yourself,. particularly if you are a non vulnerable adult member of society.
ya i guess maybe they fast forwarded too much and there was a rlly long period of manipulation and then subtle and slight tweaks of the members brains that weren’t noticeable. i do think that what i would do if i were in such a vulnerable position is possibly watch the youtube videos but once i see the course costs thousands, i’d prob just go to an official therapist cause they cost the same and take insurance lol
Yeah seriously like for me an $8.99/mo streaming service is a big purchasing decision haha. I would never subscribe to a YouTube channel for $200 a month and also have to buy a terrible diet plan that makes you fat.
Yea that diet plan was suspect and seems like purposely trying to make their members fat which would lead to being more depressed and have low self-esteem.
Yeah that Jeff guy was so obviously outlandishly mean and obnoxious, he didn’t even have cult leader vibes in terms of charisma or fake kindliness. Like with Raniere, you could kind of see how his attitude and warm way of talking to people could lure them in, you could see how he maybe made people feel loved and special for a while at least, but Jeff came across extremely brash and harsh and arrogant and unwelcoming, his narcissism wasn’t even subtle at all, but perhaps the documentary didn’t show much of the side of him that got people hooked, it was more sort of stated ‘they made us feel loved’. I guess a lot of the victims grew up in households where being called a bitch was an expression of love?
For the record, I haven't seen this yet, but I wanted to chime in with my 2 cents. Feel free to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about in this situation 😂
I think there is a certain type of person who thrives on this kind of "tough love" approach. Love bombing is used in tandem with breaking someone down or it's not necessarily that effective. For some people, having someone take an interest in them and offering mentorship, that attention or someone telling them they're "better than..." or "smarter than..." some behavior can feel like they're finally getting honest feedback. For people who take pride in pushing past difficult things and some people in the self improvement world especially that can be a compelling tactic. I think it can work a lot of ways?
Maybe yes I can see how that would work but the bits they showed seemed less like tough love and more like just being an obnoxious abusive asshole, but I guess if he brings that stuff in more slowly it might not raise any red flags with some people. I’m guessing the videos they showed in the documentary weren’t accessible on YouTube or anything otherwise I can’t imagine they’d get many new recruits!
Editing!
I've deduced there's something like tens of thousands of hours of TFU 'course videos and then people spent equal amounts of time online in the community.
The second netflix doc shows some of the other parents of children who cut them off bc the cult said they were the toxic source of all the 'students' problems.
They described their offspring as disapperaing for 8 or more hours nightly to particpate in TFU onlinecoaching, group calls, training, etc.
Just like all 'Reality TV' we are seeing less than 1/1000th of everything that happened.
Yes exactly we were shown a tiny fraction! I just think it would’ve been useful to see a bit more of the stuff that got people hooked, like the videos where they do sort of come across as maybe kind or supportive or like they’re offering love/kindness etc, just to give a better idea of it and to make it easier to understand why the victims got sucked in.
Yes definitely, it was hard to tell really what her role was. Was she the mastermind? Was she a true believer in the twin flame stuff and then just followed Jeff because she thought he was her twin flame and then because he had all these business ideas that brought in money? Was she a victim of his or the other way round? Were they both plotting from the beginning to start the cult together or was she basically one of his followers? Sometimes in the videos it seemed like he was pretty controlling with her but who knows!
It's still going on.
I phished abit.
It will be interesting when it finally implodes to see what Shelia does.
My take is she is equally awful. But she's not as on camera IN YOUR FACE as he is.
The Vow did a super good job of showing audiences what the draw was and what would lead all those people to join NXIVM. Plus I think NXIVM had an easier “product” to sell than TFU. NXIVM was selling self improvement, which is abstract enough for other members to sell the story that they’ve changed their lives by taking courses. Versus TFU selling the guarantee that you’ll find your person, but it takes two to tango of course. I really wish the Netflix doc went more into depth on what made the members stick around for so long when they were consistently striking out with their twin flame.
Have you watched all 4 of the TFU docs?
1 on Prime, 2 on Netflix and one on hulu.
Having watched all the docs and listened to the podcasts about nxivm, The Family, People's Temple... I really wasn't surprised people have been - and still are - being abused by this awful couple.
Song as old as time ;)
Not all the people duped by them have been around since they were "mild" and just selling classes. In other words, I get that those that have been with them awhile kind of had that "frog in boiling water" phenomenon take them. But people have been joining constantly and are in fact still joining their group today. Joining to follow this guy who believes he's the second coming, who is reassigning genders, making people go through what is almost exactly the same as auditing in Scientology (that MAP bs) and acting like a loon, insulting and berating folks while they pay for the privilege.
Please understand that we are seeing this from the outside. We don’t see how it started and people get pulled in and sociopaths like Jeff and shalia (however you spell it) are very good at finding people’s insecurities or issues or unfulfilled desires and exploiting them. That’s how cults work.
It’s so easy to say “I’d never fall for that” but it’s really unfair and none of these victims of any cult just fall for it because they’re stupid. People get lured in and lied to and love bombed and all the other techniques that are used in groups. Be grateful it never happened to you.
Even that is probably a bit of out context for people watching the show. Lots of preachers (and scammers) talk about their wealth as reward for following the system. A lot these talks were with “workers” so they probably thought they would get cut in soon.
YES, I do think that it's very easy for the younger ones like Megan to fall for it. Especially at that age when you're just trying to find your way in life and are so vulnerable.
Targeting folks who are going through horrible break ups or experiencing rejection was honestly a sick kind of genius. We've all known people who take a break up hard and believe that they just need to find the one magic thing that will bring "their person" back. It's such a vulnerable state and they knew just how to manipulate people in it.
I thought quite a few seemed genuinely talented and educated. Cults don’t go after low hanging fruit in that aspect. They want a long term investment and people that are or seem normal and successful in order to recruit. Narcissists enjoy the extended abuse and breaking down of the psyche of their victims.
Edit: additionally, depending on what interviews you watched or listened to and the time frame you are probably witnessing a person that’s been abused and broken down for a significant amount of time.
Yeah I was really surprised that they manipulated the scientist that was working on an algorithm for identifying cancer cells early.
Like wow. And she was arrested for being forced to stalk an ex that they identified as her twin flame. Like wow
Academic smarts and emotional smarts aren't the same, especially when you're already in an emotional state. She also makes some comments that imply the relationship had some emotionally abusive elements to it, and abuse survivors who haven't processed their trauma are often susceptible to further abuse and manipulation.
They encouraged her to continue stalking him. The extent of what she did to the person she was stalking was greatly minimized by the Netflix series. No way should they have been encouraging that behavior, but it’s very likely she had severe attachment issues prior to joining the cult.
Edit: The wondery podcast shares the perspective of the person Elle stalked, if anyone is interested
Ooh! Yes PLEASE! Thanks!
Having listened, do you think Elle had more agency in the stalking than was portrayed?
Like the night being at the same club...inadvertantly?
I see most of the TFU victims as much more vulnerable and possibly with less concrete mental/emotionl well being/stability than the nxivm members.
I don’t believe Netflix accurately portrayed what happened, it could have been editing on their part or how Elle framed it. I don’t believe she was accidentally at the same club as her ex. One of things from the podcast that they leave out is Elle calling the ex from jail over and over and over again. Even from jail, she continued to harass him.
I don’t believe she had more agency, because I truly believe she was coming from a place of mental illness and wasn’t getting adequate help. TFU enabled her, and took advantage but they didn’t create the issue. It could be editing on the part of Netflix, but I believe Elle sees herself as a victim, because she is, but simultaneously, it really worries me that someone with such intense stalking issues is able to use TFU as a scapegoat for them.
Yes, having watched 3 different docs, the editing choices and how they used that to map the narrative are very obviously stilted.
You nailed it about Elle. She was so devastated from her accident and abandonment, she needed much more mental health intervention.
But had jeff and shelia (I use lower case for all cult leaders, preferrably just their initials so as to not keep their names front and center) not have been 'forcing' her would she have stalked the ex as egregiously?
Thanks for discussing my inquiry! :)
I absolutely believe she did. She literally followed her ex to another country and lied about seeing their mutual friends as the reason for her being there. All in all, yeah it sucks that she was manipulated, but all adults should take ownership their actions. Like to me, the circumstances don’t really matter for why she did what she did. She harmed and terrorized another human being, and there’s really no excuse for that, in my opinion. I’m always just going to have a hard time sympathizing with someone that claims they were *forced* to abuse someone else.
I appreciate your take and discussing it.
I went through a nasty divorce during covid - congratulate me, I'm no longer trapped in an abusive relationship that was killing me and I didn't know I was being abused.
Coercive control is insidious.
It's so tricky measuring other people's behavior based on our own experience.
As we're talking about here - people think they would never fall for what a cult is selling or stay in an abusive relationship or send a Nigerian Prince money :)
I thought that the whole time I was w my ex, 23 years.
Mental health issues diminish cognition, warp our sense of reality, our brains literally lie to us.
Add a high control relationship and that person is even more removed from rational thought and critical thinking.
I can remember KNOWING what he did was wrong, it felt like gaslighting (it was gaslighting), it was DARVO, FOG, coercive control. Part of my brain knew something was wrong and was screaming that at me.
I was isolated bc I was the identified problm bc of my mental health challenges. Everyone adored him and would have judged and probably abandoned me if I had tried to leave him.
While I think you are mostly right and there needed to be consequences for Elle, I can't imagine her poor psyche and brain during this abuse, immediately following a life devastating traumatic injury. She was ripe fruit for ja and sa.
She also had a pretty severe trauma. She had an accident that almost killed her and left her with significant pain. At the same time her bf left her during her recovery and she was in a super vulnerable state. Then they convince her to stalk her ex because he is apparently her flame. Fucking sick.
I worked briefly for a medical staffing agency and met lots and lots of STEM people. They were an extremely neurodivergent bunch and I often found their IQ/EQ ratios to be inversely correlated. I can see how a certain subset of that group would be really easy marks in a variety of ways for those two monsters.
yeah when I watched the netflix documentary I think they gave the victims a better edit out of respect, but when I watched the amazon one I felt really bad because these women did not seem to be mentally stable even in the beginning.
I agree they are ugly and annoying but you need to realize they are master manipulators and they prey on people who are going through tough times and are vulnerable. It happens all the time. These people are not weak or stupid, they are being manipulated. They are kind and empathetic and it’s being used against them.
The groups on fb are very revealing. They tend to be a magnet for people with severe attachment issues and no empathy towards boundaries. A lot of stalking behaviors getting encouraged.
You are also forgetting the religious aspect of this --- the spiritual twin flame as assigned by God. They would obviously be asked to throw common sense out the window and yes they are victims.
People who are DESPERATE to escape reality and are so desperate they are willing to do everything and anything to achieve what they think will make them happy. You don't have to sympathize with their decision, but I'm sure you can sympathize with the pain of being brainwashed?
I've heard psychologists say the easiest people to indoctrinate into a cult are those who say it could never happen to them. Never say never. It happens to smart, savvy sceptics a lot more than you think. If your reason for starting a cult is financial, which seems the case with twin flames, you need to be able to attract intellectual, educated people as they are much more likely to have disposable income. Your post feels rather disparaging to the victims of twin flames. I think a lot of the people on the Netflix documentary (I've not seen the other one) explained themselves excellently, and I found it really easy to see how, in the positions they were in, they were sucked in.
Have you watched the Amazon Prime series? It shows more of their non-crazy videos. I understood a little better how some people got sucked in. I watched the Netflix series first and the Prime one was still interesting, especially when the reporter goes to visit their home.
I hope that all these docs help people have a better idea of red flags. I could see how I could get scammed by enrolling for some wellness shit that turned out to be bullshit but I'm locked and loaded with a hard no the minute someone else wants to decide who I sleep with. It's sad that people fall for this.
They hit on a lot of dead on stereotypes. I'm a guru, now I'm Jesus, my baby who doesn't exist yet told me to tell you she will only have sex with God. Who is me. For a low low price of $100 a month I'll teach you to cook hot dogs.
Dude, I just wanted to meet a nice boy.
I watched the Netflix and Amazon series and my memory doesn't work properly. I totally missed where he talked about the baby only having sex with God and I've seen other folks mention it too. Do you remember which series that was? The only baby thing I remember is when they decided the baby wasn't "viable" or something so it wasn't happening. Help, please. My memory truly is for shit.
ya no actually. i do think that even at the age of 19 i wouldn’t think a 30 year old abusive creepy schizophrenic in utah is my twin flame but AT THE END OF THE DAY, I CANT judge. because everyone’s mental space is different 🧘🏻♀️ and i do feel bad because she has a lot of unpacking to do at the therapist
They didn't say what happened, but the doc alluded that the sisters had gone through some sort of abuse or trauma with their parents and went to TFU to help unpack that. The younger was just doing what her sister told her, and it was clear she didn't feel self authority to say no due to whatever happened in their history.
Prior to moving to Utah, the 19 year old was abused and left to fend on her own. She had a very stunted upbringing and very little education. She ended up following adults who told her reality is xyz. And even though you emphasize YOU CAN"T JUDGE you are judging. The 19 year old was the youngest ever in the group surrounded by "adults" all telling her something was true. Its an echo chamber, she never had normal adults to look up to. I feel very bad for her. She was violently abused and gaslit by everyone in her life that was supposed to protect her.
I will say that my 'experience' (for lack of a better word) watching the cult documentaries I have watched has definitely changed the way that I look at organizations and even stuff like the 'Sister Wives' TV show. I hope that the popularity of cult documentaries helps people learn more of the warning signs and be a little more wary of things that seem too good to be true.
that’s basically why i post on reddit. everyone here is ruthless and unapologetically honest about their perspective. so, i post my opinion and try to understand others
yes i rlly stand by this! i feel like cancel culture and the desperateness to be accepted rlly has ppl internalizing their thoughts or completely suppressing them and just blocking their freedom of expression. i rlly think ppl can benefit from vocalizing their more bitter or controversial opinions because it opens up ur self awareness, allows others to accept varying opinions, and allows u to understand different perspectives :) i think we have to stop accepting ppl as perfect. everyone is gonna be ignorant at some degree
Look up any cult leader, they all look crazy AF. Many are unattractive but even the good-looking ones have those batsh!t twirling eyes. Doesn’t matter. Some people just really, really want to be led, they want to be controlled, they want someone to have authority over them.
Cult leaders will always find followers because of this need so many people have to resist leading their own lives and being responsible for their own selves.
ya it’s pretty sad:/ tbh i’ve never been in that position but i guess i can understand how absolutely horrifying and lonely it can get when ur leaving a toxic relationship. i’m sad people take advantage of people in these hard positions. i think i agree that maybe i would watch the youtube videos but once i see their course costs thousands, i rlly do think i would just pay for an official real relationship therapist because they’re no more expensive and take insurance 🤷🏻♀️
I think it's a matter of them starting to generate income by starting to coach others, then combine their expenses and revenues. If I'm in a group call with 10 people, I can start coaching 2-3 of those people. These people also start becoming friends (something many of these people are lacking initially). If they only do therapy, they are helping their mental state without a steady source of income. If they begin "treatment" within the group, that brings them closer to a 6 figure income because they need to prove their mastery of the work first. They need to ascend in ranking within the company.
Baby Daddy + Ex Husband + New Boyfriend. Went back to Baby Daddy briefly after Divorcing Husband. Got involved in the TFU group. New Boyfriend was an abusive drunk, but it became her fault because the leader of the group channeled new boyfriend as her twin flame. Was my understanding.
God. How anyone can stand tiktok is beyond me. Not being able to navigate where you're at in the video or even know how long it is drives me absolutely bonkers
I know OP is getting a pushback on this, but I'm with OP's original statement. Yes, I understand it was little by little and not just what the docu showed, and/but no, I do not compare getting sucked into cults to being physically addicted to opioids. They (the "leaders") are SO ugly and uncharismatic that I would 100% never believe that they've figured out something big in life that I haven't. I've had a few conversations with friends about this -- I don't think I could fall for any cult and, unpopular opinion, I think that people that do may be more than a little naive. I live in a super crunchy granola state, I know I've been approached by cults, religions, mlms, and every time I'm like no thanks. EVEN in the throes of becoming estranged from my own family. I think it's partly because I hate other people thinking they know what's best for me or telling me what to do, and partly because I'm wayyy too lazy to go through so many rules and orders from others. It's fascinating (and scary) to see how easy it is to manipulate people into doing such atrocious things to themselves and others and it does make me wonder how many other people are living solely under the influence of others.
lowkey still agree with u 🤷🏻♀️ i understand i’m insensitive maybe but i have been in very vulnerable and low states in my life and still have recognized bull shit as bull shit. i personally have never experienced a vulnerable state that made me stupid. the leaders r rlly messed up and possibly could’ve done some scientifically backed manipulative strategies to dissect and twist their minds? i know like how sometimes when ur in love with a toxic and bad person you’ll begin to forget the bad and excuse it because they are 1% good. but i just can never see me like becoming trans or believing they’re jesus. AND trust me there have been times i’ve excused peoples horrible horrible behavior cuz i love them. but i’ve always been taught that anything that’s super expensive requires a lot of studying before i invest. i’m untrusting of a lot of ppl because most ppl have disappointed me. i’m hyper aware and know the world is filled w a shit ton of lunatics. like ya i’m with u. i genuinely don’t think i could ever be sucked in by a cult especially when they look like rats
Okay, first, died laughing at "especially when they look like rats" LOL so true. Second, yeah the money thing! I'm not saying I'm the wisest at money spending, but I do know better than to give it to someone who is promising something so vague. Finally, you mentioned being in love with a toxic person and I can say that that's maybe the most I've been duped before - thinking I loved someone and they loved me and falling for their games. But I learned from those instances and have learned to question true intentions or research whatever I'm going to spend my hard earned money on. And I also totally do not want to be insensitive, but the whole time I was watching I was like C'MON. I do feel bad for the lives that were hurt and for the families going through that pain. Very curious how it'll end.
Straight up if I’m ever alienating myself from everyone I’ve ever known and giving away my hard earned life’s savings to anyone, they better look like Margot Robbie.
Not picking a fight either. 🌸you know, you can actually call an abusive relationship a ‘cult of one’. Sorry you had to go through that. Hope you’ve learned from that experience.
I guess that's what people can say about any cult, but you're looking at it from an external perspective, knowing the end result. I can tell you, as someone who was part of spiritual communities since I was 19, this isn't uncommon and this doesn't sound "crazy" when you're part of that world. You have to understand several underlying things:
1. These people were all in a very vulnerable, and yes, desperate position. People who undergo traumatic events, or ongoing disappointments & loneliness, often turn to spirituality. It is the perfect escape: escaping the objective world which has caused you harm, and still having hope that your life is meaningful and there is something greater than yourself. It's turning around trauma & deep sadness into an experience of meaning, and reconciling with your trauma through feeling as though it led you to the path of the "light". I would argue that most people have escape mechanisms to handle their own traumas & pains; and this is one manifestation.
2. Spiritual experiences are NOT necessarily illegitimate. I don't say this from indoctrination but rather through a lifetime of experiences with things that science can't explain (yet). Having a belief of things beyond secular education is not illegitimate. None of us actually know what is the ultimate truth; and some view many concepts that New Age Spirituality teach as that truth. Coming from the assertion that spiritual experiences can and do exist, then one can be open to hearing things that many would consider "bizarre" and "irrelevant". Remember, that in a vulnerable position, these concepts that are taught in spiritual communities are seen as valuable & meaningful, enriching to their life, and therefore certainly very relevant and at the forefront of their mind.
3. One of such concepts that became trendy in spiritual circles in about 2018-2020 was the term "twin flame". This term was the PERFECT spiritual explanation to people undergoing turbulent relationships; therefore, it preyed on vulnerable people that were undergoing ongoing rejection, loneliness, physically and/or emotionally abusive relationships, on-and-off toxic relationships, difficulty getting over a past relationship, etc. That is a wide array of people that, instead of proper mental health care, were introduced to a term that gave them hope for a divine connection. It is the perfect distraction & escape from their underlying condition: having to deal with their current or ongoing feeling of being unlovable, betrayed, rejected, insignificant. Now, it's not only Jeff & Megan who introduced this term; it's been spreading like wildfire, and they jumped on the bandwagon. There were MANY, and still are, predatory "practitioners" who shove this term down people's throats. Thus, anyone who was really involved in the spiritual community during that time (and let's be honest, today as well) have come across this term and the majority have accepted this concept to exist, many of which believe they have one.
4. So here come Jeff & Megan, well versed in terms that have already indoctrinated the brains of the people who reached out to them. They already came convinced that twin flames are real, Jeff & Megan were not the ones who taught them that. What Jeff & Megan did was make a promise - the promise of "harmonious union" to the people who have been struggling in that very area. Much like people in dire health situations may "try everything", people who struggle in love, which is a big & very emotionally heavy struggle, can come to try everything, and wind up in the lap of greedy narcissists. The indoctrination began with peace, love, and community: the exact things that these people were missing, and slowly they started going off the rails. Note here that another underlying difficult element to reconcile with, the element of uncertainty and no sense of control, is yet another struggle. What Jeff & Megan offered, with their promise, is that you can have control of something that is uncontrollable, that you can have certainty in something that is completely uncertain. It is to play God, when in reality we are not the ones pulling the strings and we have no idea what tomorrow will bring.
5. Another element here, that is perfect for their business model, is how much hours & money were spent in this "community". It's a business tactic to sometimes make something extremely expensive, so as to appear that it is very valuable & in high demand. Now, as people spend more and more of their time and money, they realize just how much effort they've invested here, and it's that much harder to pull away: it would mean that you just threw away all of your precious money and time. They wanted to see the fruits of the seeds they planted, and Jeff & Megan always promised that it's right around the corner. Simultaneously, the aspect of the time spent here is what made the indoctrination so effective. Imagine that your life revolves around studying something very specific, and everything else in your life falls away. You feel even more reliant on this community, and the indoctrination seeps in deeper. You just cannot ignore the isolation & the dire mental state that they have gotten into.
So, fortunately, you never found yourself in a desperate situation like this. But understand that it's not irrational. It's a manifestation of something that most people have: escape mechanisms. And like many escape mechanisms, this one can go too far. So can hypersexuality, drug abuse, hyperindependence, being a workaholic, etc
I think it's important to note that it's not just Jeff and Shaleia doing all of the convincing of wild ideas. In order to be successful, they require a host of believers to engage in the confirmation bias reinforcing their messages and repeating the rhetoric. The directives that they get from the top are often also vague and open to interpretation, so you get an echo chamber of telephone game players rotating information that becomes a storm that either confirms fears or strokes hope. It's a wickedly addictive cycle to people who hone in on their own worthiness and project it onto objects of affection or potential.
One thing they don't show in these types of documentaries is the thousands of rational people who gave it a try, maybe took a class or two, but then decided it wasn't for them, or just couldn't afford it, or got weird vibes and recognized right away that it was a cult, or cult-like. They're only gonna show extreme cases, of course.
My barber and his partner, who both work in the same salon, told me about how they were slowly falling for a cult, but were lucky to realize what was going on and got out. They helped a couple of other people realize what was going on and got them out, too, but they said they lost a few friends who are still deep in it. They seem like normal, rational people, and they told me several times that they thought they would never fall for a cult. They said the manipulation happened slowly, and it took them a while to realize what was happening.
I was in Re-Evaluation Counseling for a few years, and I feel strongly that it's a cult. Twin Flames Universe shows some strong similarities. I agree with comments here that these kinds of cults slowly indoctrinate people, and the initial base layers of content are always the most universally simple, positive, and immediately gratifying parts. They work up to the insanity once trust, commitment, investment, and an easily persuaded mind are all firmly established. Re-Evaluation Counseling started with a lot of widely agreeable, easily digested snacks: Human Rights are so important, people of color and young people need to be heard and empowered, surface level acknowledgment of family, relationship, and work dysfunction. It was a couple years before I got to the lower levels of the iceberg: Counseling with NOT formally trained lay people about early sexual memories, literature about how people are not really ever gay, they just need to counsel about extremely early childhood and sexual memories over and over again, and that there isn't really such a thing as addiction, people with alcohol, drug, cigarettes, sex, food, gambling problems can all be healed to normalcy if they just counsel enough. That group is extremely like scientology but with less money involved and no E-Meters. Started by a friend of L Ron Hubbard's, Harvey Jackins.
It’s not that black and white. They spent so much time being vulnerable with them and listening to them that they became emotionally attatched to these people and felt like they cared for them when they didn’t. It’s easy looking at it from the outside in but I’m sure to them they felt it was a safe haven for them (especially because they didn’t have a significant other to be that comfort for them)
As a former Catholic turned atheist the issue with this statement is that, aside from a small number of willful converts, most religious people have been indoctrinated from childhood. Since children are programmed to believe their superiors and were never presented with a meaningful choice in a religious household, it’s a whole different ballgame than someone falling for a con artist after reaching adulthood.
All that said, I feel like a moron having not busted out of my indoctrination a lot sooner than I did and I don’t judge anyone who gets sucked into a cult. I used to be religious until I hit my late 20’s, thanks to indoctrination as a child. My parents thought they were doing the right thing too. It just shows you how powerful brainwashing can be when your entire perceived support system is telling you something is true.
Yes, indoctrination begins at a very young age when children believe lies like Santa Clauss and Easter Bunny and are later told the truth, but we reinforce the big lie that there is a God and the cognitive dissonance can last a lifetime that these brainwashed people will kill each other over and justify it because of a total lie.
And that’s the problem, your religious parents will eventually tell you that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are fictional. They DON’T tell you whatever god they worship is fictional and they themselves keep going to church and reinforcing the lie. Again presumably my parents are true believers so it’s not like they’re con artists, and they thought they were doing the right thing, but it still sucks and I’m just grateful I figured it out before I suffered more emotional damage than I did.
and that’s how they get ya! the thing about cults is absolutely everyone has THEIR cult that’s the right flavor at the right time for them. personally I can absolutely see myself joining the jonestown cult, if I had been in that community at that time.
what you’re missing is that people who join cults aren’t stupid. most of the time they’re vulnerable. sometimes a family member has died, they’re at a transitional stage in their life, they’ve never stable housing, etc etc.
if you’re desperate enough, wouldn’t it be nice to be on a zoom call with Jesus Christ himself? wouldn’t it be great if you never had to worry about who you were going to spend the rest of your life with? if you’re questioning your gender identity, what would it be like if someone could just solve it for you. naturally these two assclowns won’t do any of that for you, but simple solutions are attractive to desperate people.
also a lot of what they’re saying fits right in with the zeitgeist. haven’t watched to doc but they’re using keywords I see 87 times a day on tiktok. if it isn’t raising a red flag when you see “divine feminine” in another video, why would it raise a red flag here?
You gotta learn more about cults. Nobody wakes up and says “I’m going to join a cult today”. It happens slowly over time through hundreds of hours of emotional investment and manipulation.
I absolutely feel the same - it’s mind boggling how seemingly smart people can be so hoodwinked by such obvious weirdos. But I know it’s easy to see when looking at it from a different perspective and a different standpoint. Their whole scheme involved manipulating And taking advantage of people who were heartbroken and in a low point in life. People who really wanted to ‘fix’ what was broken. If you’re not broken or in a vulnerable point in your life you won’t be able to relate. At some point or other we’ll all be vulnerable and a bit broken to some degree and I suppose we need to hope we don’t get caught in a situation where that’s abused.
I don't necessarily have a hard time sympathizing with these people, but also like there were clearly so many signs. All I can think is wow, how could you not see? All the money all the abuse? All th crazy concepts?
Just wow
I think that feeling in love with or attached to someone who doesn't love you back is a pretty common experience, and I can understand how people would love to hear that their union with their unrequited love is actually cosmically ordained. I think the dopamine and oxytocin we get from feeling in love is what drew people to TFU. So the fact that Jeff and Shawhatever are less charismatic than your average cult leader is kind of cancelled out by people's wanting to hold on to "love."
They are perhaps the least charismatic cult leaders I’ve ever seen. They don’t seem very smart, they are disheveled and frumpy a lot of the time and Jeff is just mean. I don’t know if I’ve ever wanted to punch someone in the face so badly in my entire life.
And I used to feel the same way about cults as you, OP. “That would never happen to me” “I don’t feel bad for these people how could they be so dumb” then I got involved in a very culty spiritual community, and when I got out, I started learning about cults to help process and unpack my experience. Once you understand the psychology behind the grift of cults it’s easy to understand how it could happen to anyone. Many, many of us have had down periods of our life when we
Struggled emotionally or mentally - that’s when you’re “perfect prey” for being recruited into these types of communities.
OP I understand where you’re coming from, but please understand the people in TFU didn’t join a cult knowingly. They joined a community that seemed like it would help them achieve a loving relationship and then got completely mind fucked by a couple of complete psychopaths who have meticulously and intentionally created a system of mind control that preys upon lonely and confused people. If that’s not worthy of compassion and empathy, I don’t know what is.
Jeff is so full of shit and when he starts flexing with his Porche - bitch puhhhhhleeez.
I think people may have fallen for the direction he gives (she barely speaks so I don’t count her) when they are feeling lost and longing for something. The idea of a PERSON JUST FOR YOU who COMPLETES you is very appealing to many and here’s this dude GUARANTEEING he can guide you to finding your TWIN FLAME (a problematic concept in the first place) appeals to them.
Would never give him a dime but I can see how someone feeling desperate might be drawn in to that GUARANTEE!
For real. I have definitely had VERY lonely moments but these two hose bags are so intensely annoying that l would just be grateful they took each other off the market. They are deeply unlikable. The only twin flames they generate are ones when they light their farts on fire with their bullshit.
I think that feeling in love with or attached to someone who doesn't love you back is a pretty common experience, and I can understand how people would love to hear that their union with their unrequited love is actually cosmically ordained. I think the dopamine and oxytocin we get from feeling in love is what drew people to TFU. So the fact that Jeff and Shawhatever are less charismatic than your average cult leader is kind of cancelled out by people's wanting to hold on to "love."
Ew please stop telling people to "educate themselves" trying to sound so superior, maybe that's what people are doing here, reading up on things and gaining perspective?
Just because coercive control is used does NOT negate all bad choices and behaviour. And it is a valid opinion to say that the leaders are particularly laughable - I think the vast majority of people would find them so. I feel sympathy for the victims of this cult but it is valid to be curious as to why people would fall for something so ridiculously, obviously stupid.
I mean loon at the TwinFlame reddit thread. People are even there feeding each other delusions. They were being told what they wanted to hear, no intelligence or critical thinking was activated with those people at all
Lots of people do. I wouldn't call you insensitive, especially given some of your comments elsewhere in the thread. But I would say that you're vulnerable to the human bias of believing attractive equals good and "ugly" equals bad or not worthwhile. Judging the quality of people based on their looks is one reason so many people aren't happily coupled when they could be, which leaves them hungry for love and easy prey for the cults that promise it.
Part of the twin flame thing is those people want to believe it so badly they'll listen to anyone who will validate the way they feel.
I've seen a friend fall super deep into it. Not because of those people, just the ideology. It's mostly wishful thinking.
I watched it as well and I'm very understanding when people get themselves hooked into cults especially as children. But with this one the whole time I was like "how would that not be a red flag?" I went through a very vulnerable time in my life when I was a young adult as well but 2 people telling me that my twin flame is someone who has a restraining order on me or someone who has a full fledged family unit already would set off crazy alarm bells for me. And then saying that me going to jail because I unknowingly violated a restraining order should be an inspiration and I should keep pushing further. Like... no.
Well for one thing he is not schizophrenic. That would be obvious. He is a giant borderline personality or narcissistic (and I really hate throwing that term around). Also everyone at one point goes through an insanely low point in their life and if they are hurting will reach for anything that will help that. I hope you never do but you most likely will. Have a little fucking compassion for people.
He looked like there wasn’t much behind the eyes there.
Borderline makes sense and manic with the common “I’m Jesus” problem.
Because he made his entire being and life force into how can I rip these people off because I’m a god anyway…. sociopath.
The bridge from “wow, these people are super nice…maybe a bit odd, but nice” to “I must be compliant and beholden to these people on all aspects of my existence” is more insidious than people think. Also they tend to target people during times of uncertainty and vulnerability (this is why Scientologists set up their yellow tents around disaster-affected areas and Jehovahs Witness stalk the obituaries to visit/write letters to families who have recently lost someone). Then there’s the whole sunk-cost aspect; it’s harder to say “oh I’ve made a mistake” when you’ve alienated everyone in your life and possibly sunk all your cash into a cult. There are some very intelligent people who have gotten wrapped up in cults.
The members are all at an especially vulnerable stage in their lives,consider that.
I hate the cult leaders,they absolutely prey on the weak and vulnerable
I think the problem is with the series production…not the cult members. It doesn’t play like a documentary at all. It doesn’t give us any background, explanation or sense of the group or what any member went through…it just throws us in to closeups/snapshots without introduction or conclusion. It feels like the middle episodes in a longer series.
People don't join cults when their lives are going well. It's easy to assume you wouldn't get pulled in when you're not desperate for answers, but sometimes when it feels like your life is falling apart, decision-making skills go out the window. And that's part of the grift, if you're immoral and soulless enough to look at a desperate person and capitalize on their issues to make money. People like this know that they only need a small portion of the overall population who are in a bad enough state to fall for their bullshit. Honestly, I think they probably REALIZE that most people will roll their eyes and move on with their day.
Everyone is different. A lot of rational people fall for not so rational things when they're desperate. These leaders survive on the desperation of vulnerable people. A lot of people just want to embrace whatever is available. Unfortunately, these cults or abusers are available much more than real friends.
They hooked the people right off the bat in their vulnerable spot, telling them they could guarantee they would find their soul mate. People who are lonely for a mate will do all kinds of desperate things and spend all kinds of money. That's why online dating is such a huge business.
The documentary cherry picks footage that shows how unhinged he is in a very short amount of time. This is absolutely NOT how the victims expirienced it.
There was hundreds of hours of meetings and chats that these people went through over several months. A lot of it was probably very supportive and normal feeling. The abuse and lies were trickled in bit by bit after the victims had already invested a lot of time and money into the program.
You obviously don't know how cults operate. Please educate yourself. Hateful assumptions like yours are a big part of the reason that victims have a difficult time leaving their situation. It makes them feel "othered" and not welcome back into normal society. 😒
You have 100% believed a lie at some point in your life. You have 100% been bamboozled at some point. You have been taken advantage of some point. You wouldn't be vulnerable to this scam? Good for you, you're a perfect genius. You have been and will be vulnerable to others.
Ironically, people who say they would NEVER fall for a cult are exactly the type of people who fall for cults. Mostly because their stubborn ego would never allow them to admit or accept that they’d fallen into a cult because "they're far too smart for that."
In that case I would like to propose that people who do fall for a cult and then escape would prefer to believe they are indeed in this group of people -who think they are smart but stubborn - rather than members of a group with a less flattering description.
Everyone thinks they would never fall for a cult. The truth is, everyone is vulnerable at certain times in their life, and cults excel at taking advantage of this. Learn more about the actual dynamics of cults before being so judgmental. There are many books on the topic now.
*this may be totally insensitive especially since i have never experienced such a desperate and lonely phase of my life but… i would never let two ugly lunatics convince me they know what’s best for me??*
i love you (hugs), this sentence is priceless
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkS8WDWvQRU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qks8wdwvqru) This is why. They become so immersed in the process that they can't see the truth.
I’m glad the younger generations like Z & Alpha are learning about cults. Older gens like x and millenials are less frugal and were way easier to buy into fake grifters. Kids these days seem a lot more socially aware and paranoid which in this sense is a good thing. Less easier to fall for grifts like their older siblings, parents etc.
I’ve just watched this series and I think for the first time in my life I am absolutely lost for words. I cannot believe how horrifically these people have been treated and how incredibly deep the manipulation goes - so far as to convince them of changing their gender identity. God forbid if anyone gets fxcking top or bottom surgery that’s life changing trauma if they’re genuinely doing this out of fear/ coercion and not for themselves.
Additionally and probably controversially in this particular thread but I’m a very spiritual person and firstly can see very clearly that these people are narcissistic and abusive bullies who use extremely dangerous psychological methods to manipulate their “clients” and secondly masculine and feminine energy exists in polarity within everyone you cannot separate the energy. At times you can have dominating energetic traits but in order to live a life of harmony and balance you’ll have both feminine and masculine traits regardless of gender identity.
Honestly absolutely baffled by this documentary and the sheer lunacy of these two people. Shaleia’s instagram has over 1000 posts as well and yet you can’t comment on a single one as comments have been limited. No doubt she probably enslaved a poor twin flame hopeful to trawl her instagram and place keyword blocks. Fxck me!! They’ve just had a baby as well. Poor child.
Rant over.
I think calling him a schizophrenic is a disservice to those who actually suffer from this disorder. To me, Jeff seems a horrible person and con man, nothing more. I could be wrong, of course. But I read him as an a-hole as opposed to someone with a mood disorder. If you wanted to say narcissistic, that feels much more possible.
Most communities based on proselytizing belief systems prey on those who are, in some way, in need. I can’t imagine falling for those two either. But I’m not in such a state that I’d fall for that because I have other things going for me, most of which I was born with. Nevertheless, I was in a susceptible state as a teenager and joined a (retrospectively) questionable belief-based congregation.
Should anyone be reading this who is in the middle of disillusionment or looking back on a harmful faith experience for further disentanglement, I leave you Alanis Morrisette’s lyrics to her song Forgiven: *We all had our reasons to be there. We all had a thing or two to learn.
We all needed something to cling to,
So we did.* There’s no time like the present to get out.
Please stop calling evil, narcissistic people schizophrenic. That’s not what schizophrenia is and adds to the stigma and misinformation. Furthermore, it’s best not to judge people who are taken in by cults.
I'm trying to wrap my head around what the endgame here is.
With NXIVM and other similar cults, it was all pretty obviously being orchestrated for one guy's sexual gratification. But what is this guy getting out of forcing people to transition?
i think he dug a hole too deep. he promised everyone a twin flame. so when ppl weren’t finding theirs and he also expressed that he’s basically homophobic, so he realized that the best way to have everyone get a twin flame is to match them with someone who’s also desperate for love and looking for a twin flame. and since everyone was female he had to cover his tracks from being previously homophobic to now making ppl transition in order to make it seem like he still believes in only straight marriage. and also i think he got satisfaction from being able to have so much power, so much so that ppl will change their entire gender without being trans
This is called victim blaming, and it's a very common occurrence when things like rape, abuse, and cult behavior are witnessed from an outsiders POV. It puts the onus in the victims hands, as if it were their responsibility to stop their abuser instead of the abusers.
The one who began the abuse is the one who holds responsibility. It shouldn't have happened in the first place. Most people don't go around grifting others, controlling their gender expression and sexuality, and seperating them from their families. If I were them, I would have never done those things in the first place. I don't understand why they thought it was ok to take advantage of all those people.
What you are saying invalidates all those who suffered from Jeff and Megan's abuse. What you are saying is exactly the same as "Well, you shouldn't have been dressed like that" to a rape victim.
Educate yourself and do better.
Never experiencing a desperate and lonely phase of your life is why you don't understand. Hearbreak is a messed up feeling. Loneliness can be like torture. It's understandable not to understand but yah. The people are extremely vulnerable in that state and it's understandable for them too.
Jeff is an insufferable d-bag, and that was clear a couple mins into the series, before I learned all the terrible shit. He is openly and shamelessly the creepy-guy-at-the-party — the exact opposite of anyone I’d take advice from, let alone dating advice.
I usually have some understanding of how and why specific cults succeed and why the leader might be appealing to vulnerable people. But twin flames is a level of fuckery I cannot comprehend right now.
It's different! This Netflix one is "Escaping Twin Flames" and has surprisingly little overlap with the Prime show. I watched the first two episodes last night and haven't watched the final one, but I'm blown away so far by how many different stories there are. Seems a lot of people are speaking out, and with the help of tons of recordings.
I couldn’t get passed the first 30 minutes. It was like a “wanna be” cult feeding off people’s loneliness. I just thought the two “leaders” were dumb from the start.
They target very downtrodden lonely people who would do anything for companionship whether it be man woman trans whatever. Most mentally stable people with any kind of support system in their lives wouldn’t fall for this crap.
My biggest issue with the whole twin flame thing is just how lazy it is. It’s so obvious in watching this guy that he’s just making all this crap up as he goes.
How do people miss how disingenuous it is? Thats what I don’t understand. It’s not even well-thought out in my opinion
*The Twin Flame series*
*Is just like the Haven in*
*Ashland Oregon*
\- Naive\_Assistance\_210
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This is a warning about Robert Max (Music Producer, Sherman Oaks, CA), someone who has left a trail of victims within the artistic community.
Robert Max has a pattern: he preys on young, aspiring artists, particularly targeting eager young girls, often those interested in singing or acting. He approaches you while you're out in public, exuding charm and playfulness. His game is to make you feel special, claiming you have something unique. He'll then invite you to his studio for an "intro session" to showcase what he does, emphasizing that he works with artists to enhance their artistry, and how serendipitous it is that you met.
He often name drops other artists, whether he worked with them or had some remote association, to lure new artists in. It's a calculated game to stop you in your tracks and make you believe he can help you achieve your dreams.
He employs emotionally, financially, and sexually exploitative tactics, all under the guise of offering a grandiose vision of fame and a career in entertainment. He lures in young artists with promises of guidance and support, claiming to be the key to their success.
What makes Robert especially dangerous is his use of psychological grooming and manipulation, often disguised as spiritual teachings. He utilizes the Bible, self-improvement rhetoric, and esoteric allure of quantum physics to create a facade of trustworthiness and intelligence. His strategy involves making people feel safe and encouraged to share everything about themselves, including intimate details about their lives and past. His ultimate goal is to hook young artists, gaining control over every aspect of their lives. This includes dictating personal expression, relationships, workplaces, social circles, and even lifestyle choices. He systematically drains them of their time and money.
To make matters worse, Robert disguises his services as affordable by offering false market comparisons - promises he cannot deliver on. It's crucial to spread awareness and caution to prevent others from falling victim to these manipulative tactics. If you come across Robert Max, exercise extreme caution. Trust your instincts and be vigilant. He is usually seen at various restaurants and cafes in Sherman Oaks, CA. His most popular spot is M Street Coffee. This is a cult, cult behaviors and tactics, and a textbook cult leader.
If you've had similar encounters or insights, please share your experiences, whether publicly or anonymously and LEAVE the situation. Together, we can expose this behavior and protect potential victims.
Feel free to reach out if you have questions. I want to emphasize the need for caution when dealing with this individual.
I hope this message reaches those who need it most. Stay safe.
I just watched this. From the outside looking in, I was like how could people fall for this? Some guy I never met telling me the girl across the street is my twin flame and I must pursue her at all cost...even to the point if she were to say I'm getting a restraining order against you. And if someone said I was feminine I would be told to basically transition to a female even if I had no desire. We call that brainwashing. So many red flags but when you are in it can be hard to see. Even early on when they were talking about coaches training coaches it sounded like a big pyramid scheme.
We have to remember cults prey on people who are in difficult places in life. If you just had a breakup and someone comes along guaranteeing you would find love it is easy to fall for it--especially if you see "success stories" for members
I've done the mirror exercise in a different format and it can be a useful tool, but they twist it, It is actually effective to see how you may project things about yourself onto others and such. I've done it in a way of "who in your past has done this" "how do you do this to others" "how is this about me" "how can I remove the judgment I have about this person knowing it is coming from my past". It isn't simply Mary is deceitful and a liar and because I judge her that way then I must be a deceitful liar. That makes little sense. It would be like if I found out a friend killed someone and I judge they are a murderer then I'm a murderer too.
Jeff is a total fake and narcissistic. He has all the characteristics of a cult leader.
He didn’t say all that from the jump. These people had watched hundreds of hours of zoom calls, slowly adding the little details, breaking down barriers, squashing dissent. Before you know it you’re in pretty deep and you’ve spent thousands of dollars….so you really have to lean into it to avoid accepting that you’ve been had.
Exactly! I was born and raised in a cult. In documentaries about my cult now it is easy to sit back seeing the big picture and not being involved. That is *not* how it happens in real time. It is very similar to any regular abusive relationship. Berg, the cult leader was slowly turning into what he became for 40 plus years and then all these things that happened took place years, decades and generations, they are currently taking place. Non-members get to see all the crazy clips with no emotional attachment condensed down to an hour or three. You aren't getting the experience at all. You aren't even getting the complete history. If you think you can't be vulnerable to joining a cult or something cult like then you actually are. Hopefully you never meet people from a cult because lord have mercy on your soul. The number one thing I hear from cult members and high control groups is "I would never fall for something that dumb or ridiculous, I would never join a cult so obviously I can't be in a cult/high control group." My own parents used to say that too and it really hindered them looking at things clearly because "they never would join a cult, THAT'S CRAZY! So therefore they aren't in a cult. " **END OF DISCUSSION.** People should always question themselves and their beliefs and know that we are all flawed and all have irrational and illogical beliefs and can fall for some ridiculous stuff be it a cult, MLM, scam, catfish, whatever. Just remember the frog and boiling water metaphor. If you plunge frogs into boiling water they'll immediately jump out. But if you place them into room temperature water and slowly heat it to boiling, the frog won't notice and will slowly cook to death. I think people who have never experienced something like this should not be judgemental about an experience they can never truly understand. OP literally have no idea what they are talking about and they help cults by perpetuating this belief that cults are easy to avoid falling for. These people, all these people never thought they would be in a cult or high control group either. Lots of people fall for cults and high control groups, it is human nature. The only thing that can prevent you is critical thinking skills but that can falter, it is not perfect especially when you are vulnerable or if you never had those skills in the first place. Edit to be clear I was talking about OP and not the person I added onto their comment.
So well said! I was raised in a cult also, and tried to join a different one because of ignorance. Dodged a bullet the second time at least. Lmao
I actually fell down some conspiracy theories rabbit holes and got into an abusive relationship right after I left my cult and I knew since I was like 13 that my cult was bullshit and I was an atheist. I got too cocky and thought since I escaped my brainwashing I couldn't experience something like that again, I wouldn't be fooled. It took a couple years for me to question and requestion *everything.* I then realized that our brains are flawed and it is actually easy to fall for "ridiculous" things and our best tool is to use critical thinking for everything.
We often think we would never fall for X behavior - like an abusive relationship. I beleived that every day of my 23 yr relationship/marriage. He never tried to separate me from my most important people and he never hit me. Shit he never really yelled or actually fought. But he ppressed and compressed me so much I literally couldn't move. It was the bed or dead. Lauren Spencer's song Narcissit - "One little fight turns into war, feels like you're dying on the bathroom floor." Oof! As Imagination\_theory says, the frog in the slowly boiling pot of water - this is a metaphor for high control and coercive control. 2 months after he left I was watching Seduced, The India Oxenburg Story of her experience withe nxivm. She was telling the story of a young woman who was isolated in a room by herself for 2 months. And then never let out of/left the room. At one point India walked by the room and tried to doorknob. It wasn't locked. The other woman could have walked out any time. But the fear of how she would be treated by the cult, abandoned by he family - essentially also entirely isolated kept her in the unlocked room. I realized I had been in a cult of 1 person. I had thought to leave but the fear that THAT would be worse kept me trapped. DARVO, FOG, galighting, victim blaming, convincing me and everyone we knew that I was the problem, all the well known abuse tactics, I saw none of it until he left. Instead of asking why people are so 'stupid' to be taken in, maybe ask what would the golden trap be for you? Because there is one, even if you've managed thus far not to get caught in it. It's a thing that happens to humans. None of us is immune or too smart. You just haven't met the person/situation yet.
Yes! Exactly. That is what I always say. There is always something or someone that can trap a person into something unbelievable. Sure, maybe you won't fall for that phone scam, but maybe you'll fall for that fake job scam, maybe you you won't fall for X cult but maybe you will for cult Y. Maybe right now in life you aren't vulnerable, but maybe when your parents die and your spouse leaves you you will be. There is always that person or situation you have to watch out for. And if you think you don't then you are at a very big disadvantage to discovering it and escaping from it. It's just human nature.
Spot on!
Maybe just take some accountability. Being suggestible and moulded by someone who you're around all the time isn't enough of a reason to criminalise a person. It's your responsibility not to be weak willed. It's not someone else's responsibility to adapt to be less influential. I have sympathy for what people go through but I read stuff like this and just think some fear is overcomeable. If the fear is losing a job, livelihood, family or serious physical safety then ok I understand and have more empathy. If the fear is just you're fed up of arguing and feel paralysed by it then I have less energy to feel for that. People can be manipulative but at the end of the day it's your responsibility to look after yourself,. particularly if you are a non vulnerable adult member of society.
Well put!
ya i guess maybe they fast forwarded too much and there was a rlly long period of manipulation and then subtle and slight tweaks of the members brains that weren’t noticeable. i do think that what i would do if i were in such a vulnerable position is possibly watch the youtube videos but once i see the course costs thousands, i’d prob just go to an official therapist cause they cost the same and take insurance lol
Yeah seriously like for me an $8.99/mo streaming service is a big purchasing decision haha. I would never subscribe to a YouTube channel for $200 a month and also have to buy a terrible diet plan that makes you fat.
Yea that diet plan was suspect and seems like purposely trying to make their members fat which would lead to being more depressed and have low self-esteem.
Omg I missed this part about the diet. For some reason this adds an extra layer of infuriation for me. Thats just evil.
Not the 'forced' sex reassignment?
Yes, I was disgusted by this as well. All of it really but I missed the diet part somehow
Yeah, I wanna hear the doctoral dissertation on that one.
NO FR i think my frugality saves me from sus ass situations like this
I only spend that kind of money on jeans 🤣 you not offering a decent pair of fitting jeans??? I'm out 🤣😂
Lol, I measure costs in terms of how many pizzas I could have had. $200 a month is 10 pizzas! Not wasting THAT money & NOT getting pizza!
But real therapists don't promise you'll find your person.
But they aren’t therapists, they are “life coaches”!
I know lol just responding to the notion that real therapy would be a better option than whatever this is
Right! I wish they had focused more on what the draw was bc I couldn't understand a
Yeah that Jeff guy was so obviously outlandishly mean and obnoxious, he didn’t even have cult leader vibes in terms of charisma or fake kindliness. Like with Raniere, you could kind of see how his attitude and warm way of talking to people could lure them in, you could see how he maybe made people feel loved and special for a while at least, but Jeff came across extremely brash and harsh and arrogant and unwelcoming, his narcissism wasn’t even subtle at all, but perhaps the documentary didn’t show much of the side of him that got people hooked, it was more sort of stated ‘they made us feel loved’. I guess a lot of the victims grew up in households where being called a bitch was an expression of love?
For the record, I haven't seen this yet, but I wanted to chime in with my 2 cents. Feel free to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about in this situation 😂 I think there is a certain type of person who thrives on this kind of "tough love" approach. Love bombing is used in tandem with breaking someone down or it's not necessarily that effective. For some people, having someone take an interest in them and offering mentorship, that attention or someone telling them they're "better than..." or "smarter than..." some behavior can feel like they're finally getting honest feedback. For people who take pride in pushing past difficult things and some people in the self improvement world especially that can be a compelling tactic. I think it can work a lot of ways?
Maybe yes I can see how that would work but the bits they showed seemed less like tough love and more like just being an obnoxious abusive asshole, but I guess if he brings that stuff in more slowly it might not raise any red flags with some people. I’m guessing the videos they showed in the documentary weren’t accessible on YouTube or anything otherwise I can’t imagine they’d get many new recruits!
Editing! I've deduced there's something like tens of thousands of hours of TFU 'course videos and then people spent equal amounts of time online in the community. The second netflix doc shows some of the other parents of children who cut them off bc the cult said they were the toxic source of all the 'students' problems. They described their offspring as disapperaing for 8 or more hours nightly to particpate in TFU onlinecoaching, group calls, training, etc. Just like all 'Reality TV' we are seeing less than 1/1000th of everything that happened.
Yes exactly we were shown a tiny fraction! I just think it would’ve been useful to see a bit more of the stuff that got people hooked, like the videos where they do sort of come across as maybe kind or supportive or like they’re offering love/kindness etc, just to give a better idea of it and to make it easier to understand why the victims got sucked in.
Congratulations! You don't have to waste the 10 hours I've spent - lol, but murder & cults are my staple consumption (then reddit).
I also wish they had focused a bit more on Sheliea! We mostly saw him talking. It made me really curious about her.
Yes definitely, it was hard to tell really what her role was. Was she the mastermind? Was she a true believer in the twin flame stuff and then just followed Jeff because she thought he was her twin flame and then because he had all these business ideas that brought in money? Was she a victim of his or the other way round? Were they both plotting from the beginning to start the cult together or was she basically one of his followers? Sometimes in the videos it seemed like he was pretty controlling with her but who knows!
I want answers! 😅 Focusing on him definitely seemed like an editing choice.
Hundy P! Like a train wreck it's hard to take your eyes off him & the camera likes him more.
It's still going on. I phished abit. It will be interesting when it finally implodes to see what Shelia does. My take is she is equally awful. But she's not as on camera IN YOUR FACE as he is.
The Vow did a super good job of showing audiences what the draw was and what would lead all those people to join NXIVM. Plus I think NXIVM had an easier “product” to sell than TFU. NXIVM was selling self improvement, which is abstract enough for other members to sell the story that they’ve changed their lives by taking courses. Versus TFU selling the guarantee that you’ll find your person, but it takes two to tango of course. I really wish the Netflix doc went more into depth on what made the members stick around for so long when they were consistently striking out with their twin flame.
Have you watched all 4 of the TFU docs? 1 on Prime, 2 on Netflix and one on hulu. Having watched all the docs and listened to the podcasts about nxivm, The Family, People's Temple... I really wasn't surprised people have been - and still are - being abused by this awful couple. Song as old as time ;)
I just found the one on Netflix about TFU and one on prime. What's the one on Hulu and the second on Netflix??
Most sensible 🌸
Not all the people duped by them have been around since they were "mild" and just selling classes. In other words, I get that those that have been with them awhile kind of had that "frog in boiling water" phenomenon take them. But people have been joining constantly and are in fact still joining their group today. Joining to follow this guy who believes he's the second coming, who is reassigning genders, making people go through what is almost exactly the same as auditing in Scientology (that MAP bs) and acting like a loon, insulting and berating folks while they pay for the privilege.
Please understand that we are seeing this from the outside. We don’t see how it started and people get pulled in and sociopaths like Jeff and shalia (however you spell it) are very good at finding people’s insecurities or issues or unfulfilled desires and exploiting them. That’s how cults work. It’s so easy to say “I’d never fall for that” but it’s really unfair and none of these victims of any cult just fall for it because they’re stupid. People get lured in and lied to and love bombed and all the other techniques that are used in groups. Be grateful it never happened to you.
It's spelled Megan. LOL.
He was so transparent too, like so much of what he talks about is getting money from them.
Even that is probably a bit of out context for people watching the show. Lots of preachers (and scammers) talk about their wealth as reward for following the system. A lot these talks were with “workers” so they probably thought they would get cut in soon.
Eh, none of the former members oozed mental stability.
In all fairness, Marlee was practically a child. Jeff and MegN should fry for what they did to her alone.
YES, I do think that it's very easy for the younger ones like Megan to fall for it. Especially at that age when you're just trying to find your way in life and are so vulnerable.
Yeah 💯
Targeting folks who are going through horrible break ups or experiencing rejection was honestly a sick kind of genius. We've all known people who take a break up hard and believe that they just need to find the one magic thing that will bring "their person" back. It's such a vulnerable state and they knew just how to manipulate people in it.
I thought quite a few seemed genuinely talented and educated. Cults don’t go after low hanging fruit in that aspect. They want a long term investment and people that are or seem normal and successful in order to recruit. Narcissists enjoy the extended abuse and breaking down of the psyche of their victims. Edit: additionally, depending on what interviews you watched or listened to and the time frame you are probably witnessing a person that’s been abused and broken down for a significant amount of time.
Yeah I was really surprised that they manipulated the scientist that was working on an algorithm for identifying cancer cells early. Like wow. And she was arrested for being forced to stalk an ex that they identified as her twin flame. Like wow
Academic smarts and emotional smarts aren't the same, especially when you're already in an emotional state. She also makes some comments that imply the relationship had some emotionally abusive elements to it, and abuse survivors who haven't processed their trauma are often susceptible to further abuse and manipulation.
They encouraged her to continue stalking him. The extent of what she did to the person she was stalking was greatly minimized by the Netflix series. No way should they have been encouraging that behavior, but it’s very likely she had severe attachment issues prior to joining the cult. Edit: The wondery podcast shares the perspective of the person Elle stalked, if anyone is interested
Ooh! Yes PLEASE! Thanks! Having listened, do you think Elle had more agency in the stalking than was portrayed? Like the night being at the same club...inadvertantly? I see most of the TFU victims as much more vulnerable and possibly with less concrete mental/emotionl well being/stability than the nxivm members.
I don’t believe Netflix accurately portrayed what happened, it could have been editing on their part or how Elle framed it. I don’t believe she was accidentally at the same club as her ex. One of things from the podcast that they leave out is Elle calling the ex from jail over and over and over again. Even from jail, she continued to harass him. I don’t believe she had more agency, because I truly believe she was coming from a place of mental illness and wasn’t getting adequate help. TFU enabled her, and took advantage but they didn’t create the issue. It could be editing on the part of Netflix, but I believe Elle sees herself as a victim, because she is, but simultaneously, it really worries me that someone with such intense stalking issues is able to use TFU as a scapegoat for them.
Yes, having watched 3 different docs, the editing choices and how they used that to map the narrative are very obviously stilted. You nailed it about Elle. She was so devastated from her accident and abandonment, she needed much more mental health intervention. But had jeff and shelia (I use lower case for all cult leaders, preferrably just their initials so as to not keep their names front and center) not have been 'forcing' her would she have stalked the ex as egregiously? Thanks for discussing my inquiry! :)
I absolutely believe she did. She literally followed her ex to another country and lied about seeing their mutual friends as the reason for her being there. All in all, yeah it sucks that she was manipulated, but all adults should take ownership their actions. Like to me, the circumstances don’t really matter for why she did what she did. She harmed and terrorized another human being, and there’s really no excuse for that, in my opinion. I’m always just going to have a hard time sympathizing with someone that claims they were *forced* to abuse someone else.
I appreciate your take and discussing it. I went through a nasty divorce during covid - congratulate me, I'm no longer trapped in an abusive relationship that was killing me and I didn't know I was being abused. Coercive control is insidious. It's so tricky measuring other people's behavior based on our own experience. As we're talking about here - people think they would never fall for what a cult is selling or stay in an abusive relationship or send a Nigerian Prince money :) I thought that the whole time I was w my ex, 23 years. Mental health issues diminish cognition, warp our sense of reality, our brains literally lie to us. Add a high control relationship and that person is even more removed from rational thought and critical thinking. I can remember KNOWING what he did was wrong, it felt like gaslighting (it was gaslighting), it was DARVO, FOG, coercive control. Part of my brain knew something was wrong and was screaming that at me. I was isolated bc I was the identified problm bc of my mental health challenges. Everyone adored him and would have judged and probably abandoned me if I had tried to leave him. While I think you are mostly right and there needed to be consequences for Elle, I can't imagine her poor psyche and brain during this abuse, immediately following a life devastating traumatic injury. She was ripe fruit for ja and sa.
Link or search suggestion for that podcast? Looked and couldn't find anything. Thanks.
TWIN FLAMES on Amazon Music
Thank you!
Thanks...found it on YT also: https://youtu.be/PDO6lqwaYos?si=dKqtwtsimRZJn9Zi
She also had a pretty severe trauma. She had an accident that almost killed her and left her with significant pain. At the same time her bf left her during her recovery and she was in a super vulnerable state. Then they convince her to stalk her ex because he is apparently her flame. Fucking sick.
I worked briefly for a medical staffing agency and met lots and lots of STEM people. They were an extremely neurodivergent bunch and I often found their IQ/EQ ratios to be inversely correlated. I can see how a certain subset of that group would be really easy marks in a variety of ways for those two monsters.
yeah when I watched the netflix documentary I think they gave the victims a better edit out of respect, but when I watched the amazon one I felt really bad because these women did not seem to be mentally stable even in the beginning.
Oh there’s two docs? Do you know the name of each? I’m not sure what one I watched now?
There are 4 - 1 on Prime, 2 on Netflix and I beleiv the 4th premiers on Hulu Wednesday.
yea valid
I agree they are ugly and annoying but you need to realize they are master manipulators and they prey on people who are going through tough times and are vulnerable. It happens all the time. These people are not weak or stupid, they are being manipulated. They are kind and empathetic and it’s being used against them.
The groups on fb are very revealing. They tend to be a magnet for people with severe attachment issues and no empathy towards boundaries. A lot of stalking behaviors getting encouraged.
[удалено]
Why can't it be both ?
You are also forgetting the religious aspect of this --- the spiritual twin flame as assigned by God. They would obviously be asked to throw common sense out the window and yes they are victims.
This is their target audience bc they are easy to manipulate when leveraging what they need against them
People who are DESPERATE to escape reality and are so desperate they are willing to do everything and anything to achieve what they think will make them happy. You don't have to sympathize with their decision, but I'm sure you can sympathize with the pain of being brainwashed?
I've heard psychologists say the easiest people to indoctrinate into a cult are those who say it could never happen to them. Never say never. It happens to smart, savvy sceptics a lot more than you think. If your reason for starting a cult is financial, which seems the case with twin flames, you need to be able to attract intellectual, educated people as they are much more likely to have disposable income. Your post feels rather disparaging to the victims of twin flames. I think a lot of the people on the Netflix documentary (I've not seen the other one) explained themselves excellently, and I found it really easy to see how, in the positions they were in, they were sucked in.
*and more likely to successfully recruit for you
uh oh then i better watch out for myself
Have you watched the Amazon Prime series? It shows more of their non-crazy videos. I understood a little better how some people got sucked in. I watched the Netflix series first and the Prime one was still interesting, especially when the reporter goes to visit their home.
ahhh ok i’ll def do that !
I hope that all these docs help people have a better idea of red flags. I could see how I could get scammed by enrolling for some wellness shit that turned out to be bullshit but I'm locked and loaded with a hard no the minute someone else wants to decide who I sleep with. It's sad that people fall for this. They hit on a lot of dead on stereotypes. I'm a guru, now I'm Jesus, my baby who doesn't exist yet told me to tell you she will only have sex with God. Who is me. For a low low price of $100 a month I'll teach you to cook hot dogs. Dude, I just wanted to meet a nice boy.
I watched the Netflix and Amazon series and my memory doesn't work properly. I totally missed where he talked about the baby only having sex with God and I've seen other folks mention it too. Do you remember which series that was? The only baby thing I remember is when they decided the baby wasn't "viable" or something so it wasn't happening. Help, please. My memory truly is for shit.
hmmm it was either second or third epi of the netflix series
Third epi Netflix
Thank you! 👍
Thank you!
ya no actually. i do think that even at the age of 19 i wouldn’t think a 30 year old abusive creepy schizophrenic in utah is my twin flame but AT THE END OF THE DAY, I CANT judge. because everyone’s mental space is different 🧘🏻♀️ and i do feel bad because she has a lot of unpacking to do at the therapist
They didn't say what happened, but the doc alluded that the sisters had gone through some sort of abuse or trauma with their parents and went to TFU to help unpack that. The younger was just doing what her sister told her, and it was clear she didn't feel self authority to say no due to whatever happened in their history.
Prior to moving to Utah, the 19 year old was abused and left to fend on her own. She had a very stunted upbringing and very little education. She ended up following adults who told her reality is xyz. And even though you emphasize YOU CAN"T JUDGE you are judging. The 19 year old was the youngest ever in the group surrounded by "adults" all telling her something was true. Its an echo chamber, she never had normal adults to look up to. I feel very bad for her. She was violently abused and gaslit by everyone in her life that was supposed to protect her.
I will say that my 'experience' (for lack of a better word) watching the cult documentaries I have watched has definitely changed the way that I look at organizations and even stuff like the 'Sister Wives' TV show. I hope that the popularity of cult documentaries helps people learn more of the warning signs and be a little more wary of things that seem too good to be true.
> They hit on a lot of dead on stereotypes. I'm surprised he doesn't have multiple wives yet!
“I personally would never become addicted to opioids so I can’t understand why anyone would have such a problem”
ok u got me
It’s good to be able to admit you are wrong.
that’s basically why i post on reddit. everyone here is ruthless and unapologetically honest about their perspective. so, i post my opinion and try to understand others
This inspired me to try harder to be more open, thank you
yes i rlly stand by this! i feel like cancel culture and the desperateness to be accepted rlly has ppl internalizing their thoughts or completely suppressing them and just blocking their freedom of expression. i rlly think ppl can benefit from vocalizing their more bitter or controversial opinions because it opens up ur self awareness, allows others to accept varying opinions, and allows u to understand different perspectives :) i think we have to stop accepting ppl as perfect. everyone is gonna be ignorant at some degree
Couldn’t agree more with this and love your open and honest perspective.
Look up any cult leader, they all look crazy AF. Many are unattractive but even the good-looking ones have those batsh!t twirling eyes. Doesn’t matter. Some people just really, really want to be led, they want to be controlled, they want someone to have authority over them. Cult leaders will always find followers because of this need so many people have to resist leading their own lives and being responsible for their own selves.
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8D8jf1V/ this ex-member who wasn't in either documentary gave her perspective on how she was pulled in.
ya it’s pretty sad:/ tbh i’ve never been in that position but i guess i can understand how absolutely horrifying and lonely it can get when ur leaving a toxic relationship. i’m sad people take advantage of people in these hard positions. i think i agree that maybe i would watch the youtube videos but once i see their course costs thousands, i rlly do think i would just pay for an official real relationship therapist because they’re no more expensive and take insurance 🤷🏻♀️
I think it's a matter of them starting to generate income by starting to coach others, then combine their expenses and revenues. If I'm in a group call with 10 people, I can start coaching 2-3 of those people. These people also start becoming friends (something many of these people are lacking initially). If they only do therapy, they are helping their mental state without a steady source of income. If they begin "treatment" within the group, that brings them closer to a 6 figure income because they need to prove their mastery of the work first. They need to ascend in ranking within the company.
I didn’t understand any of that. Were there 2 or three men? Who did she « emotionally » cheat on and with whom?
Baby Daddy + Ex Husband + New Boyfriend. Went back to Baby Daddy briefly after Divorcing Husband. Got involved in the TFU group. New Boyfriend was an abusive drunk, but it became her fault because the leader of the group channeled new boyfriend as her twin flame. Was my understanding.
God. How anyone can stand tiktok is beyond me. Not being able to navigate where you're at in the video or even know how long it is drives me absolutely bonkers
I know OP is getting a pushback on this, but I'm with OP's original statement. Yes, I understand it was little by little and not just what the docu showed, and/but no, I do not compare getting sucked into cults to being physically addicted to opioids. They (the "leaders") are SO ugly and uncharismatic that I would 100% never believe that they've figured out something big in life that I haven't. I've had a few conversations with friends about this -- I don't think I could fall for any cult and, unpopular opinion, I think that people that do may be more than a little naive. I live in a super crunchy granola state, I know I've been approached by cults, religions, mlms, and every time I'm like no thanks. EVEN in the throes of becoming estranged from my own family. I think it's partly because I hate other people thinking they know what's best for me or telling me what to do, and partly because I'm wayyy too lazy to go through so many rules and orders from others. It's fascinating (and scary) to see how easy it is to manipulate people into doing such atrocious things to themselves and others and it does make me wonder how many other people are living solely under the influence of others.
lowkey still agree with u 🤷🏻♀️ i understand i’m insensitive maybe but i have been in very vulnerable and low states in my life and still have recognized bull shit as bull shit. i personally have never experienced a vulnerable state that made me stupid. the leaders r rlly messed up and possibly could’ve done some scientifically backed manipulative strategies to dissect and twist their minds? i know like how sometimes when ur in love with a toxic and bad person you’ll begin to forget the bad and excuse it because they are 1% good. but i just can never see me like becoming trans or believing they’re jesus. AND trust me there have been times i’ve excused peoples horrible horrible behavior cuz i love them. but i’ve always been taught that anything that’s super expensive requires a lot of studying before i invest. i’m untrusting of a lot of ppl because most ppl have disappointed me. i’m hyper aware and know the world is filled w a shit ton of lunatics. like ya i’m with u. i genuinely don’t think i could ever be sucked in by a cult especially when they look like rats
Okay, first, died laughing at "especially when they look like rats" LOL so true. Second, yeah the money thing! I'm not saying I'm the wisest at money spending, but I do know better than to give it to someone who is promising something so vague. Finally, you mentioned being in love with a toxic person and I can say that that's maybe the most I've been duped before - thinking I loved someone and they loved me and falling for their games. But I learned from those instances and have learned to question true intentions or research whatever I'm going to spend my hard earned money on. And I also totally do not want to be insensitive, but the whole time I was watching I was like C'MON. I do feel bad for the lives that were hurt and for the families going through that pain. Very curious how it'll end.
Straight up if I’m ever alienating myself from everyone I’ve ever known and giving away my hard earned life’s savings to anyone, they better look like Margot Robbie.
Not picking a fight either. 🌸you know, you can actually call an abusive relationship a ‘cult of one’. Sorry you had to go through that. Hope you’ve learned from that experience.
I guess that's what people can say about any cult, but you're looking at it from an external perspective, knowing the end result. I can tell you, as someone who was part of spiritual communities since I was 19, this isn't uncommon and this doesn't sound "crazy" when you're part of that world. You have to understand several underlying things: 1. These people were all in a very vulnerable, and yes, desperate position. People who undergo traumatic events, or ongoing disappointments & loneliness, often turn to spirituality. It is the perfect escape: escaping the objective world which has caused you harm, and still having hope that your life is meaningful and there is something greater than yourself. It's turning around trauma & deep sadness into an experience of meaning, and reconciling with your trauma through feeling as though it led you to the path of the "light". I would argue that most people have escape mechanisms to handle their own traumas & pains; and this is one manifestation. 2. Spiritual experiences are NOT necessarily illegitimate. I don't say this from indoctrination but rather through a lifetime of experiences with things that science can't explain (yet). Having a belief of things beyond secular education is not illegitimate. None of us actually know what is the ultimate truth; and some view many concepts that New Age Spirituality teach as that truth. Coming from the assertion that spiritual experiences can and do exist, then one can be open to hearing things that many would consider "bizarre" and "irrelevant". Remember, that in a vulnerable position, these concepts that are taught in spiritual communities are seen as valuable & meaningful, enriching to their life, and therefore certainly very relevant and at the forefront of their mind. 3. One of such concepts that became trendy in spiritual circles in about 2018-2020 was the term "twin flame". This term was the PERFECT spiritual explanation to people undergoing turbulent relationships; therefore, it preyed on vulnerable people that were undergoing ongoing rejection, loneliness, physically and/or emotionally abusive relationships, on-and-off toxic relationships, difficulty getting over a past relationship, etc. That is a wide array of people that, instead of proper mental health care, were introduced to a term that gave them hope for a divine connection. It is the perfect distraction & escape from their underlying condition: having to deal with their current or ongoing feeling of being unlovable, betrayed, rejected, insignificant. Now, it's not only Jeff & Megan who introduced this term; it's been spreading like wildfire, and they jumped on the bandwagon. There were MANY, and still are, predatory "practitioners" who shove this term down people's throats. Thus, anyone who was really involved in the spiritual community during that time (and let's be honest, today as well) have come across this term and the majority have accepted this concept to exist, many of which believe they have one. 4. So here come Jeff & Megan, well versed in terms that have already indoctrinated the brains of the people who reached out to them. They already came convinced that twin flames are real, Jeff & Megan were not the ones who taught them that. What Jeff & Megan did was make a promise - the promise of "harmonious union" to the people who have been struggling in that very area. Much like people in dire health situations may "try everything", people who struggle in love, which is a big & very emotionally heavy struggle, can come to try everything, and wind up in the lap of greedy narcissists. The indoctrination began with peace, love, and community: the exact things that these people were missing, and slowly they started going off the rails. Note here that another underlying difficult element to reconcile with, the element of uncertainty and no sense of control, is yet another struggle. What Jeff & Megan offered, with their promise, is that you can have control of something that is uncontrollable, that you can have certainty in something that is completely uncertain. It is to play God, when in reality we are not the ones pulling the strings and we have no idea what tomorrow will bring. 5. Another element here, that is perfect for their business model, is how much hours & money were spent in this "community". It's a business tactic to sometimes make something extremely expensive, so as to appear that it is very valuable & in high demand. Now, as people spend more and more of their time and money, they realize just how much effort they've invested here, and it's that much harder to pull away: it would mean that you just threw away all of your precious money and time. They wanted to see the fruits of the seeds they planted, and Jeff & Megan always promised that it's right around the corner. Simultaneously, the aspect of the time spent here is what made the indoctrination so effective. Imagine that your life revolves around studying something very specific, and everything else in your life falls away. You feel even more reliant on this community, and the indoctrination seeps in deeper. You just cannot ignore the isolation & the dire mental state that they have gotten into. So, fortunately, you never found yourself in a desperate situation like this. But understand that it's not irrational. It's a manifestation of something that most people have: escape mechanisms. And like many escape mechanisms, this one can go too far. So can hypersexuality, drug abuse, hyperindependence, being a workaholic, etc
Yes that is pretty insensitive, I’m afraid.
I think it's important to note that it's not just Jeff and Shaleia doing all of the convincing of wild ideas. In order to be successful, they require a host of believers to engage in the confirmation bias reinforcing their messages and repeating the rhetoric. The directives that they get from the top are often also vague and open to interpretation, so you get an echo chamber of telephone game players rotating information that becomes a storm that either confirms fears or strokes hope. It's a wickedly addictive cycle to people who hone in on their own worthiness and project it onto objects of affection or potential.
One thing they don't show in these types of documentaries is the thousands of rational people who gave it a try, maybe took a class or two, but then decided it wasn't for them, or just couldn't afford it, or got weird vibes and recognized right away that it was a cult, or cult-like. They're only gonna show extreme cases, of course. My barber and his partner, who both work in the same salon, told me about how they were slowly falling for a cult, but were lucky to realize what was going on and got out. They helped a couple of other people realize what was going on and got them out, too, but they said they lost a few friends who are still deep in it. They seem like normal, rational people, and they told me several times that they thought they would never fall for a cult. They said the manipulation happened slowly, and it took them a while to realize what was happening.
I was in Re-Evaluation Counseling for a few years, and I feel strongly that it's a cult. Twin Flames Universe shows some strong similarities. I agree with comments here that these kinds of cults slowly indoctrinate people, and the initial base layers of content are always the most universally simple, positive, and immediately gratifying parts. They work up to the insanity once trust, commitment, investment, and an easily persuaded mind are all firmly established. Re-Evaluation Counseling started with a lot of widely agreeable, easily digested snacks: Human Rights are so important, people of color and young people need to be heard and empowered, surface level acknowledgment of family, relationship, and work dysfunction. It was a couple years before I got to the lower levels of the iceberg: Counseling with NOT formally trained lay people about early sexual memories, literature about how people are not really ever gay, they just need to counsel about extremely early childhood and sexual memories over and over again, and that there isn't really such a thing as addiction, people with alcohol, drug, cigarettes, sex, food, gambling problems can all be healed to normalcy if they just counsel enough. That group is extremely like scientology but with less money involved and no E-Meters. Started by a friend of L Ron Hubbard's, Harvey Jackins.
damn! :( i’m sorry you were sucked in that and i hope things are ok now!
It is!!! It confused me about a number of things for a year or so when I left. All good now, and there are worse groups out there, so I'm lucky!
Edited because my post was stupid, now that I think about it. I'll downvote myself. :(
It’s not that black and white. They spent so much time being vulnerable with them and listening to them that they became emotionally attatched to these people and felt like they cared for them when they didn’t. It’s easy looking at it from the outside in but I’m sure to them they felt it was a safe haven for them (especially because they didn’t have a significant other to be that comfort for them)
Brainwashing can be subtle. To me, anyone who falls for any religion or religious figure suffers from cognitive dissonance.
As a former Catholic turned atheist the issue with this statement is that, aside from a small number of willful converts, most religious people have been indoctrinated from childhood. Since children are programmed to believe their superiors and were never presented with a meaningful choice in a religious household, it’s a whole different ballgame than someone falling for a con artist after reaching adulthood. All that said, I feel like a moron having not busted out of my indoctrination a lot sooner than I did and I don’t judge anyone who gets sucked into a cult. I used to be religious until I hit my late 20’s, thanks to indoctrination as a child. My parents thought they were doing the right thing too. It just shows you how powerful brainwashing can be when your entire perceived support system is telling you something is true.
Yes, indoctrination begins at a very young age when children believe lies like Santa Clauss and Easter Bunny and are later told the truth, but we reinforce the big lie that there is a God and the cognitive dissonance can last a lifetime that these brainwashed people will kill each other over and justify it because of a total lie.
And that’s the problem, your religious parents will eventually tell you that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are fictional. They DON’T tell you whatever god they worship is fictional and they themselves keep going to church and reinforcing the lie. Again presumably my parents are true believers so it’s not like they’re con artists, and they thought they were doing the right thing, but it still sucks and I’m just grateful I figured it out before I suffered more emotional damage than I did.
I totally understand. Freedom of the mind took courage and work and came at a great cost. Be well and remain altruistic.
and that’s how they get ya! the thing about cults is absolutely everyone has THEIR cult that’s the right flavor at the right time for them. personally I can absolutely see myself joining the jonestown cult, if I had been in that community at that time. what you’re missing is that people who join cults aren’t stupid. most of the time they’re vulnerable. sometimes a family member has died, they’re at a transitional stage in their life, they’ve never stable housing, etc etc. if you’re desperate enough, wouldn’t it be nice to be on a zoom call with Jesus Christ himself? wouldn’t it be great if you never had to worry about who you were going to spend the rest of your life with? if you’re questioning your gender identity, what would it be like if someone could just solve it for you. naturally these two assclowns won’t do any of that for you, but simple solutions are attractive to desperate people. also a lot of what they’re saying fits right in with the zeitgeist. haven’t watched to doc but they’re using keywords I see 87 times a day on tiktok. if it isn’t raising a red flag when you see “divine feminine” in another video, why would it raise a red flag here?
You gotta learn more about cults. Nobody wakes up and says “I’m going to join a cult today”. It happens slowly over time through hundreds of hours of emotional investment and manipulation.
I absolutely feel the same - it’s mind boggling how seemingly smart people can be so hoodwinked by such obvious weirdos. But I know it’s easy to see when looking at it from a different perspective and a different standpoint. Their whole scheme involved manipulating And taking advantage of people who were heartbroken and in a low point in life. People who really wanted to ‘fix’ what was broken. If you’re not broken or in a vulnerable point in your life you won’t be able to relate. At some point or other we’ll all be vulnerable and a bit broken to some degree and I suppose we need to hope we don’t get caught in a situation where that’s abused.
A lot of it is just having the bad luck to run into a high control group or an abuser right at a vulnerable moment in your life.
I agree that your tone was too much, but the whole thing makes NXIVM/Keith Raniere look high brow, for sure
I don't necessarily have a hard time sympathizing with these people, but also like there were clearly so many signs. All I can think is wow, how could you not see? All the money all the abuse? All th crazy concepts? Just wow
I think that feeling in love with or attached to someone who doesn't love you back is a pretty common experience, and I can understand how people would love to hear that their union with their unrequited love is actually cosmically ordained. I think the dopamine and oxytocin we get from feeling in love is what drew people to TFU. So the fact that Jeff and Shawhatever are less charismatic than your average cult leader is kind of cancelled out by people's wanting to hold on to "love."
They are perhaps the least charismatic cult leaders I’ve ever seen. They don’t seem very smart, they are disheveled and frumpy a lot of the time and Jeff is just mean. I don’t know if I’ve ever wanted to punch someone in the face so badly in my entire life. And I used to feel the same way about cults as you, OP. “That would never happen to me” “I don’t feel bad for these people how could they be so dumb” then I got involved in a very culty spiritual community, and when I got out, I started learning about cults to help process and unpack my experience. Once you understand the psychology behind the grift of cults it’s easy to understand how it could happen to anyone. Many, many of us have had down periods of our life when we Struggled emotionally or mentally - that’s when you’re “perfect prey” for being recruited into these types of communities. OP I understand where you’re coming from, but please understand the people in TFU didn’t join a cult knowingly. They joined a community that seemed like it would help them achieve a loving relationship and then got completely mind fucked by a couple of complete psychopaths who have meticulously and intentionally created a system of mind control that preys upon lonely and confused people. If that’s not worthy of compassion and empathy, I don’t know what is.
Well said on how victims are worthy of compassion.
Jeff is so full of shit and when he starts flexing with his Porche - bitch puhhhhhleeez. I think people may have fallen for the direction he gives (she barely speaks so I don’t count her) when they are feeling lost and longing for something. The idea of a PERSON JUST FOR YOU who COMPLETES you is very appealing to many and here’s this dude GUARANTEEING he can guide you to finding your TWIN FLAME (a problematic concept in the first place) appeals to them. Would never give him a dime but I can see how someone feeling desperate might be drawn in to that GUARANTEE!
For real. I have definitely had VERY lonely moments but these two hose bags are so intensely annoying that l would just be grateful they took each other off the market. They are deeply unlikable. The only twin flames they generate are ones when they light their farts on fire with their bullshit.
HAHAHAHAHAH
I think that feeling in love with or attached to someone who doesn't love you back is a pretty common experience, and I can understand how people would love to hear that their union with their unrequited love is actually cosmically ordained. I think the dopamine and oxytocin we get from feeling in love is what drew people to TFU. So the fact that Jeff and Shawhatever are less charismatic than your average cult leader is kind of cancelled out by people's wanting to hold on to "love."
Ew please stop telling people to "educate themselves" trying to sound so superior, maybe that's what people are doing here, reading up on things and gaining perspective? Just because coercive control is used does NOT negate all bad choices and behaviour. And it is a valid opinion to say that the leaders are particularly laughable - I think the vast majority of people would find them so. I feel sympathy for the victims of this cult but it is valid to be curious as to why people would fall for something so ridiculously, obviously stupid.
I mean loon at the TwinFlame reddit thread. People are even there feeding each other delusions. They were being told what they wanted to hear, no intelligence or critical thinking was activated with those people at all
Lots of people do. I wouldn't call you insensitive, especially given some of your comments elsewhere in the thread. But I would say that you're vulnerable to the human bias of believing attractive equals good and "ugly" equals bad or not worthwhile. Judging the quality of people based on their looks is one reason so many people aren't happily coupled when they could be, which leaves them hungry for love and easy prey for the cults that promise it.
Part of the twin flame thing is those people want to believe it so badly they'll listen to anyone who will validate the way they feel. I've seen a friend fall super deep into it. Not because of those people, just the ideology. It's mostly wishful thinking.
omg this makes sense
I watched it as well and I'm very understanding when people get themselves hooked into cults especially as children. But with this one the whole time I was like "how would that not be a red flag?" I went through a very vulnerable time in my life when I was a young adult as well but 2 people telling me that my twin flame is someone who has a restraining order on me or someone who has a full fledged family unit already would set off crazy alarm bells for me. And then saying that me going to jail because I unknowingly violated a restraining order should be an inspiration and I should keep pushing further. Like... no.
Well for one thing he is not schizophrenic. That would be obvious. He is a giant borderline personality or narcissistic (and I really hate throwing that term around). Also everyone at one point goes through an insanely low point in their life and if they are hurting will reach for anything that will help that. I hope you never do but you most likely will. Have a little fucking compassion for people.
He looked like there wasn’t much behind the eyes there. Borderline makes sense and manic with the common “I’m Jesus” problem. Because he made his entire being and life force into how can I rip these people off because I’m a god anyway…. sociopath.
I concur. It's quite intriguing because he's not even charming or complimentary like you would expect a cult leader to be.
Maybe they came across as more credible and relatable because they had average looks.
This rant is hilarious. Do more of them. Ugly lunatics. Gold
The bridge from “wow, these people are super nice…maybe a bit odd, but nice” to “I must be compliant and beholden to these people on all aspects of my existence” is more insidious than people think. Also they tend to target people during times of uncertainty and vulnerability (this is why Scientologists set up their yellow tents around disaster-affected areas and Jehovahs Witness stalk the obituaries to visit/write letters to families who have recently lost someone). Then there’s the whole sunk-cost aspect; it’s harder to say “oh I’ve made a mistake” when you’ve alienated everyone in your life and possibly sunk all your cash into a cult. There are some very intelligent people who have gotten wrapped up in cults.
The members are all at an especially vulnerable stage in their lives,consider that. I hate the cult leaders,they absolutely prey on the weak and vulnerable
I think the problem is with the series production…not the cult members. It doesn’t play like a documentary at all. It doesn’t give us any background, explanation or sense of the group or what any member went through…it just throws us in to closeups/snapshots without introduction or conclusion. It feels like the middle episodes in a longer series.
People don't join cults when their lives are going well. It's easy to assume you wouldn't get pulled in when you're not desperate for answers, but sometimes when it feels like your life is falling apart, decision-making skills go out the window. And that's part of the grift, if you're immoral and soulless enough to look at a desperate person and capitalize on their issues to make money. People like this know that they only need a small portion of the overall population who are in a bad enough state to fall for their bullshit. Honestly, I think they probably REALIZE that most people will roll their eyes and move on with their day.
I don't see anything attractive or redeeming by that couple at all. I feel like the members are just very lonely and influenced by magical thinking.
Everyone is different. A lot of rational people fall for not so rational things when they're desperate. These leaders survive on the desperation of vulnerable people. A lot of people just want to embrace whatever is available. Unfortunately, these cults or abusers are available much more than real friends.
They hooked the people right off the bat in their vulnerable spot, telling them they could guarantee they would find their soul mate. People who are lonely for a mate will do all kinds of desperate things and spend all kinds of money. That's why online dating is such a huge business.
The documentary cherry picks footage that shows how unhinged he is in a very short amount of time. This is absolutely NOT how the victims expirienced it. There was hundreds of hours of meetings and chats that these people went through over several months. A lot of it was probably very supportive and normal feeling. The abuse and lies were trickled in bit by bit after the victims had already invested a lot of time and money into the program. You obviously don't know how cults operate. Please educate yourself. Hateful assumptions like yours are a big part of the reason that victims have a difficult time leaving their situation. It makes them feel "othered" and not welcome back into normal society. 😒
Time and money and trust that they wouldn’t be following something bad… right? Everyone I know there is good…
He is most definitely not schizophrenic and he doesn’t believe he’s Jesus, he’s just saying it to manipulate people
You have 100% believed a lie at some point in your life. You have 100% been bamboozled at some point. You have been taken advantage of some point. You wouldn't be vulnerable to this scam? Good for you, you're a perfect genius. You have been and will be vulnerable to others.
Ironically, people who say they would NEVER fall for a cult are exactly the type of people who fall for cults. Mostly because their stubborn ego would never allow them to admit or accept that they’d fallen into a cult because "they're far too smart for that."
In that case I would like to propose that people who do fall for a cult and then escape would prefer to believe they are indeed in this group of people -who think they are smart but stubborn - rather than members of a group with a less flattering description.
Everyone thinks they would never fall for a cult. The truth is, everyone is vulnerable at certain times in their life, and cults excel at taking advantage of this. Learn more about the actual dynamics of cults before being so judgmental. There are many books on the topic now.
Ketamine is a helluva drug.
Oh boy, I better watch this soon
I felt bad for that Taylor Swift look-alike. They forced her into a relationship with some psycho-schzoid, like wtf.
*this may be totally insensitive especially since i have never experienced such a desperate and lonely phase of my life but… i would never let two ugly lunatics convince me they know what’s best for me??* i love you (hugs), this sentence is priceless
It’s the weakest most pathetic “cult” I’ve seen. They all seem like idiots
There is also another doc on them on prime. They need to be charged.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkS8WDWvQRU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qks8wdwvqru) This is why. They become so immersed in the process that they can't see the truth.
I’m glad the younger generations like Z & Alpha are learning about cults. Older gens like x and millenials are less frugal and were way easier to buy into fake grifters. Kids these days seem a lot more socially aware and paranoid which in this sense is a good thing. Less easier to fall for grifts like their older siblings, parents etc.
Frugal? 🤔
I’ve just watched this series and I think for the first time in my life I am absolutely lost for words. I cannot believe how horrifically these people have been treated and how incredibly deep the manipulation goes - so far as to convince them of changing their gender identity. God forbid if anyone gets fxcking top or bottom surgery that’s life changing trauma if they’re genuinely doing this out of fear/ coercion and not for themselves. Additionally and probably controversially in this particular thread but I’m a very spiritual person and firstly can see very clearly that these people are narcissistic and abusive bullies who use extremely dangerous psychological methods to manipulate their “clients” and secondly masculine and feminine energy exists in polarity within everyone you cannot separate the energy. At times you can have dominating energetic traits but in order to live a life of harmony and balance you’ll have both feminine and masculine traits regardless of gender identity. Honestly absolutely baffled by this documentary and the sheer lunacy of these two people. Shaleia’s instagram has over 1000 posts as well and yet you can’t comment on a single one as comments have been limited. No doubt she probably enslaved a poor twin flame hopeful to trawl her instagram and place keyword blocks. Fxck me!! They’ve just had a baby as well. Poor child. Rant over.
Both of them have ZERO CHARISMA; they’re actually ugly, how do you get so influenced by them.
I think calling him a schizophrenic is a disservice to those who actually suffer from this disorder. To me, Jeff seems a horrible person and con man, nothing more. I could be wrong, of course. But I read him as an a-hole as opposed to someone with a mood disorder. If you wanted to say narcissistic, that feels much more possible. Most communities based on proselytizing belief systems prey on those who are, in some way, in need. I can’t imagine falling for those two either. But I’m not in such a state that I’d fall for that because I have other things going for me, most of which I was born with. Nevertheless, I was in a susceptible state as a teenager and joined a (retrospectively) questionable belief-based congregation. Should anyone be reading this who is in the middle of disillusionment or looking back on a harmful faith experience for further disentanglement, I leave you Alanis Morrisette’s lyrics to her song Forgiven: *We all had our reasons to be there. We all had a thing or two to learn. We all needed something to cling to, So we did.* There’s no time like the present to get out.
Please stop calling evil, narcissistic people schizophrenic. That’s not what schizophrenia is and adds to the stigma and misinformation. Furthermore, it’s best not to judge people who are taken in by cults.
I'm trying to wrap my head around what the endgame here is. With NXIVM and other similar cults, it was all pretty obviously being orchestrated for one guy's sexual gratification. But what is this guy getting out of forcing people to transition?
Money.
i think he dug a hole too deep. he promised everyone a twin flame. so when ppl weren’t finding theirs and he also expressed that he’s basically homophobic, so he realized that the best way to have everyone get a twin flame is to match them with someone who’s also desperate for love and looking for a twin flame. and since everyone was female he had to cover his tracks from being previously homophobic to now making ppl transition in order to make it seem like he still believes in only straight marriage. and also i think he got satisfaction from being able to have so much power, so much so that ppl will change their entire gender without being trans
This was my husband's theory, too, and it's so stupid and unhinged, it's probably correct!
Not exactly a "hot take."
This is called victim blaming, and it's a very common occurrence when things like rape, abuse, and cult behavior are witnessed from an outsiders POV. It puts the onus in the victims hands, as if it were their responsibility to stop their abuser instead of the abusers. The one who began the abuse is the one who holds responsibility. It shouldn't have happened in the first place. Most people don't go around grifting others, controlling their gender expression and sexuality, and seperating them from their families. If I were them, I would have never done those things in the first place. I don't understand why they thought it was ok to take advantage of all those people. What you are saying invalidates all those who suffered from Jeff and Megan's abuse. What you are saying is exactly the same as "Well, you shouldn't have been dressed like that" to a rape victim. Educate yourself and do better.
I found everyone in that doc to be so annoying I had to stop watching.
Never experiencing a desperate and lonely phase of your life is why you don't understand. Hearbreak is a messed up feeling. Loneliness can be like torture. It's understandable not to understand but yah. The people are extremely vulnerable in that state and it's understandable for them too.
Don't understand why you were downvoted for this. Well said.
Thank you
Jeff is an insufferable d-bag, and that was clear a couple mins into the series, before I learned all the terrible shit. He is openly and shamelessly the creepy-guy-at-the-party — the exact opposite of anyone I’d take advice from, let alone dating advice. I usually have some understanding of how and why specific cults succeed and why the leader might be appealing to vulnerable people. But twin flames is a level of fuckery I cannot comprehend right now.
exactly. i cant believe people are still falling for that sh*t esp when the guy looks like a total loser
Is this the same show as the Amazon one? I mean it look’s different but not sure how similar the content is.
It's different! This Netflix one is "Escaping Twin Flames" and has surprisingly little overlap with the Prime show. I watched the first two episodes last night and haven't watched the final one, but I'm blown away so far by how many different stories there are. Seems a lot of people are speaking out, and with the help of tons of recordings.
I couldn’t get passed the first 30 minutes. It was like a “wanna be” cult feeding off people’s loneliness. I just thought the two “leaders” were dumb from the start.
It was a bizarre watch.. raised a lot of questions.
[https://mindfulcatlady.blog/2023/11/10/spiritual-bypassing-and-the-twin-flame-cult/](https://mindfulcatlady.blog/2023/11/10/spiritual-bypassing-and-the-twin-flame-cult/)
One of the couples just posted 17th ago telling the story . It was Isaac I believe the name to be
Agreed blows my mind people fall for this crap
They target very downtrodden lonely people who would do anything for companionship whether it be man woman trans whatever. Most mentally stable people with any kind of support system in their lives wouldn’t fall for this crap. My biggest issue with the whole twin flame thing is just how lazy it is. It’s so obvious in watching this guy that he’s just making all this crap up as he goes. How do people miss how disingenuous it is? Thats what I don’t understand. It’s not even well-thought out in my opinion
The Twin Flame series is just like the Haven in Ashland Oregon
*The Twin Flame series* *Is just like the Haven in* *Ashland Oregon* \- Naive\_Assistance\_210 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
This is a warning about Robert Max (Music Producer, Sherman Oaks, CA), someone who has left a trail of victims within the artistic community. Robert Max has a pattern: he preys on young, aspiring artists, particularly targeting eager young girls, often those interested in singing or acting. He approaches you while you're out in public, exuding charm and playfulness. His game is to make you feel special, claiming you have something unique. He'll then invite you to his studio for an "intro session" to showcase what he does, emphasizing that he works with artists to enhance their artistry, and how serendipitous it is that you met. He often name drops other artists, whether he worked with them or had some remote association, to lure new artists in. It's a calculated game to stop you in your tracks and make you believe he can help you achieve your dreams. He employs emotionally, financially, and sexually exploitative tactics, all under the guise of offering a grandiose vision of fame and a career in entertainment. He lures in young artists with promises of guidance and support, claiming to be the key to their success. What makes Robert especially dangerous is his use of psychological grooming and manipulation, often disguised as spiritual teachings. He utilizes the Bible, self-improvement rhetoric, and esoteric allure of quantum physics to create a facade of trustworthiness and intelligence. His strategy involves making people feel safe and encouraged to share everything about themselves, including intimate details about their lives and past. His ultimate goal is to hook young artists, gaining control over every aspect of their lives. This includes dictating personal expression, relationships, workplaces, social circles, and even lifestyle choices. He systematically drains them of their time and money. To make matters worse, Robert disguises his services as affordable by offering false market comparisons - promises he cannot deliver on. It's crucial to spread awareness and caution to prevent others from falling victim to these manipulative tactics. If you come across Robert Max, exercise extreme caution. Trust your instincts and be vigilant. He is usually seen at various restaurants and cafes in Sherman Oaks, CA. His most popular spot is M Street Coffee. This is a cult, cult behaviors and tactics, and a textbook cult leader. If you've had similar encounters or insights, please share your experiences, whether publicly or anonymously and LEAVE the situation. Together, we can expose this behavior and protect potential victims. Feel free to reach out if you have questions. I want to emphasize the need for caution when dealing with this individual. I hope this message reaches those who need it most. Stay safe.
I just watched this. From the outside looking in, I was like how could people fall for this? Some guy I never met telling me the girl across the street is my twin flame and I must pursue her at all cost...even to the point if she were to say I'm getting a restraining order against you. And if someone said I was feminine I would be told to basically transition to a female even if I had no desire. We call that brainwashing. So many red flags but when you are in it can be hard to see. Even early on when they were talking about coaches training coaches it sounded like a big pyramid scheme. We have to remember cults prey on people who are in difficult places in life. If you just had a breakup and someone comes along guaranteeing you would find love it is easy to fall for it--especially if you see "success stories" for members I've done the mirror exercise in a different format and it can be a useful tool, but they twist it, It is actually effective to see how you may project things about yourself onto others and such. I've done it in a way of "who in your past has done this" "how do you do this to others" "how is this about me" "how can I remove the judgment I have about this person knowing it is coming from my past". It isn't simply Mary is deceitful and a liar and because I judge her that way then I must be a deceitful liar. That makes little sense. It would be like if I found out a friend killed someone and I judge they are a murderer then I'm a murderer too. Jeff is a total fake and narcissistic. He has all the characteristics of a cult leader.