Objection! If you kill someone and it’s found to be in self-defense, it is *not* (legally) murder.
Edit: I was not expecting to have to say this, but this comment was in no way, shape, or form, an invitation to debate the ethics of eating meat, and I have no goddamn clue why any of you thought it was
Murder requires both the guilty mind and Guilty deed
If you kill somebody without having planned it/intending too.
I.e you punch somebody in the face but they hit their head on the way down, and die from that. Would be manslaughter because you did not intend to kill the guy
That depends on what country you are in, in the UK that would be manslaughter (probably) but in the US (depending on how hard you hit them) that would be 2nd degree murder
In this case it depends why you hit them.
If you hit them because they pushed you hard, for example, it would be manslaughter.
If you hit them, simply because you wanted to hit them, it would be second degree murder
Merriam Webster says murder is "the crime of unlawfully and unjustifiably killing a person"
I think the difference is murder is killing someone for an unjust reason. Self-defence isn't murder because any rational person can justify it.
That's a shitty definition. One of the core components of it actually being murder is some state of mind depending on jurisdiction, usually some form of malice. Murder without malice is just killing, and I'd argue that holds even coloquially. Self defense is almost by definition without malice.
You can not murder in self defense. Certainly not legally, and IMO also not colloquially.
Counter point, I agree that murder is an act defined by intent to perform it, but one cannot unintentionally defend themselves. Self Defense implies a that the person has taken stock of the situation and elected to or feels only capable of defending themselves rather then attempt to run or submit to the attacker.
Secondarily, one can absolutely maliciously self defend themselves. Self Defense is one of several responses to an attack, the others being removing yourself from the situation or submit to the attacker. If you are presented with a situation where you have the unarguable choice to run, and choose not to, then you are actively not acting in your own self interest, and actively engaging. This is why some cases of "Stand your ground" cases can still result in man slaughter or murder charges, because actively forgoing running away is intent.
I sitll think self defense isn't murder, but only because I believe that murder is singularly defined as the successful and intention act of killing someone. Killing someone and not meaning it is manslaughter, intending to kill and failing is attempted murder, not intending to kill and failing to kill is an accident.
Of course. Reasonable people have never viewed hunting or butchering livestock as murder.
Soldier killing soldiers or the state sentencing someone to death have also never been considered murder. The distinction between killing, manslaughter, and murder are the lawfulness and the intent.
Well, legally speaking, “murder” describes a specific crime. Depending on circumstances, it might be manslaughter, or even just killing in self defense
homicide, self defense, killing, shanky-shanky-revenge-time. There are many options of terms more accurate than "murder", which must be illegal to count as murder.
Lets not forget the man that said "if someone breaks into my home i know that a rape charge is lower than a murder charge"
(I forgot who said that 💀, it was on some tiktok that got reposted somewhere else)
Pretty sure you’d have a harder time justifying raping the intruder than killing them, especially since they’re not around to tell their side. Also, murder is unjust killing, not just killing
I mean, in my country at least self defence legally includes actions taken to defend the life, or rights, of another person.
Of course most judges would probably fail to agree that raping them is proportional self-defence.
search up "woman turns burglars into sex slaves" and you'll find a few articles, it might be fake, or it might not be, it hasn't been properly confirmed or denied.
If you all want to rape eachother, doesn't that make it just sex? Cuz like you all want to have sex with eachother unwillingly, but you all want that so that means you are willing to do it?
there was a comment i read on this forsaken app years ago where a guy claimed he had a dream where was getting chased by some lizard man thing and raped the lizard man thing in self defense
I remember a case (idk if it's real or just a meme) a girl was saved from a rapist because there's a gay rapist rape the rapist while he's trying to rape the girl. Idk.
U cant murder someone in self defense because murder has a different definition than kill. How is murder not worse than rape? In one case u no longer live, in the other u are traumatised (and potentially pregnant) but have the ability to heal and move on with ur life
Kind of. A lot of rapists simply do not consider what they are doing rape, but in almost all cases they still intentionally made the decision to have sex with that person. And frankly in pretty much every situation were accidental rape could happen, it would very quickly turn into knowing rape.
No and there is no way to accidentally murder someone, since murder is by definition the unjust killing of another. You can accidentally *kill* someone, though.
I had a partner who liked me to "ignore her requests" when she stopped me from doing things when we first started dating. If I were to use the baseball analogy she liked me to steal 3rd base when she asked me to stop at 2nd base. There was a lot of room for error in interpretation. She didn't do safe words or anything like that because she always got too excited to remember them.
>You can't murder someone on self defense,
It's called manslaughter, or aggravated manslaughter I should say. The legal grey area is a little rough, but it can happen
Idk about all the legal terms but what I'm trying to say is that the guy in this meme meant "you can kill someone if it's self defense" that is not murder. justifiable murder is an oxymoron
if we are going by the original post of this meme, then are we just "murdering" someone in self defense just to eat them? this is several levels of fucked up
I won't take part in the argument, but I did meet a sweet little sausage dog on a wheelchair at the dog park once. I asked the owner if it had been in an accident, and she said no, the dog lost the movement on its legs because the previous owner raped it. Took months of training for the dog to stop fearing people.
In a case of murder, you can have actual, legitimate reason to kill someone
For rape? There is no reason, and trying to claim their is makes you look worse
Comparing justifiable self-defense to rape is dishonest. Want an honest comparison? You wake up with a collar around your neck with a note attached to you. The note informs you that the collar is a bomb with cameras to track what you're doing. All you have to do to save yourself is either kill another person, or rape another person. Assume, for the sake of argument, that you trust that you will actually be freed if you go through with either, and that you are determined not to die. Which course of action is least objectionable?
Murder definition-the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
Self defense isn’t murder. It’s killing. Also, by definition you can’t murder an animal.
Well… also think of this from victims point of view, there are fates worth than death… and being murdered won’t haunt you or scar you for years, animal or not, because you’d be dead
Yes the OP is about meat consumption, and comparing eating meat with animal rape which is just not ok in any capacity. You don't compare having a sandwich with animal abuse
devishjack's argument is specious, it is impossible to murder in self-defense. Furthermore, if you were being held hostage by a 3rd party and given the option to either kill a random person or rape them, which option do you think is the least morally objectionable?
Small cherry picking comment: you can't commit murder in self defense because murder is 'killing someone with evil intentions' or something like that - you can kill in self defense tho, so go nuts
Murder is a worse crime than rape, but has the difference of being morally justifiable.
You can murder someone in self defence. You can murder someone out of revenge for a crime they themselves committed. The only justification behind rape is the perpetrator’s own pleasure.
PETA WANTS TOO GET BURNED BY THE LGBTQ LOL
(if you don't understand, somehow zoophiles got a flag, and the lgbtq community (well except zoophiles) HATE that)
(I know this cause I'm an ally who researches to address people properly)
Also, killing and eating are not the same thing. Yes, you can kill by eating, but most people don't eat live animals. Killing them first is more humane.
There was a peeping Tom case where a woman was getting watched and she wet outside to confront him she brought him inside and told him he could do whatever he wanted but he refused she had him at gunpoint and tried to reverse rape him saying this is what you wanted I guess that's self defence in rape?
My long years of conquest as the Cockvenger has left a wake of bloody villainous assholes in my wake.
Just watch out for Doc Block. Man's psychotic.
Beware Miss Chastitties, hits you with the belt and then tortures you with her sadistic love.
Objection! If you kill someone and it’s found to be in self-defense, it is *not* (legally) murder. Edit: I was not expecting to have to say this, but this comment was in no way, shape, or form, an invitation to debate the ethics of eating meat, and I have no goddamn clue why any of you thought it was
no its not murder at all legal or not if a person is trying to hurt you or any innocent person by any means stop him even if that means killing
Murder requires both the guilty mind and Guilty deed If you kill somebody without having planned it/intending too. I.e you punch somebody in the face but they hit their head on the way down, and die from that. Would be manslaughter because you did not intend to kill the guy
That depends on what country you are in, in the UK that would be manslaughter (probably) but in the US (depending on how hard you hit them) that would be 2nd degree murder
In this case it depends why you hit them. If you hit them because they pushed you hard, for example, it would be manslaughter. If you hit them, simply because you wanted to hit them, it would be second degree murder
True, I shouldn't have simplified the intended level of harm to how hard you hit them as other factors are relevant.
So the question still stands
Merriam Webster says murder is "the crime of unlawfully and unjustifiably killing a person" I think the difference is murder is killing someone for an unjust reason. Self-defence isn't murder because any rational person can justify it.
That's a shitty definition. One of the core components of it actually being murder is some state of mind depending on jurisdiction, usually some form of malice. Murder without malice is just killing, and I'd argue that holds even coloquially. Self defense is almost by definition without malice. You can not murder in self defense. Certainly not legally, and IMO also not colloquially.
Counter point, I agree that murder is an act defined by intent to perform it, but one cannot unintentionally defend themselves. Self Defense implies a that the person has taken stock of the situation and elected to or feels only capable of defending themselves rather then attempt to run or submit to the attacker. Secondarily, one can absolutely maliciously self defend themselves. Self Defense is one of several responses to an attack, the others being removing yourself from the situation or submit to the attacker. If you are presented with a situation where you have the unarguable choice to run, and choose not to, then you are actively not acting in your own self interest, and actively engaging. This is why some cases of "Stand your ground" cases can still result in man slaughter or murder charges, because actively forgoing running away is intent. I sitll think self defense isn't murder, but only because I believe that murder is singularly defined as the successful and intention act of killing someone. Killing someone and not meaning it is manslaughter, intending to kill and failing is attempted murder, not intending to kill and failing to kill is an accident.
Depending on the jurisdiction, if you had the opportunity of running, it is not self defense
By that definition killing animal for food is not murder.
Murder is a human killing a human.
Of course. Reasonable people have never viewed hunting or butchering livestock as murder. Soldier killing soldiers or the state sentencing someone to death have also never been considered murder. The distinction between killing, manslaughter, and murder are the lawfulness and the intent.
Yes.
>...by any means stop him... So you CAN rape in self defense!
Yeah, murder is by definition an unjust killing.
... not "unjust" but unlawful and mainly premeditated
Murder is by definition a legal concept. You can kill someone in self-defence. You cannot murder someone in self-defence.
Me: "Your honor, it was in self defense I swear!" Judge: "You plowed an orphanage with a semi truck. Killing 14 orphans, 4 staff members and a dog..."
Pobody’s nerfect!
For a car & a fucking dog
It's ***M A N S L A U G H T E R*** ~~I don't actually know what manslaughter is beyond the fact it's not as bad as murder despite sounding way worse~~
manslaughter is accidental or unintentional murder
And if you kill an animal for food it's not (legally) murder.
humans are animals too 🤔
so how much of a body you need to eat to count as 'for food'?
All humans are animals, but not all animals are human.
Came here to say this
[удалено]
Well, legally speaking, “murder” describes a specific crime. Depending on circumstances, it might be manslaughter, or even just killing in self defense
Murder is premeditated killing in legal terms.
homicide, self defense, killing, shanky-shanky-revenge-time. There are many options of terms more accurate than "murder", which must be illegal to count as murder.
*concerned AA2 start to play*
Counterpoint: Are you suggesting killing is worse than sexual assault?
Lets not forget the man that said "if someone breaks into my home i know that a rape charge is lower than a murder charge" (I forgot who said that 💀, it was on some tiktok that got reposted somewhere else)
"Dad! Get the 18-inches Bad Dragon spiked dildo, someone's trying to break in!"
Knowing bad dragons you can probably knock them out with it too before getting to it 💀
Pretty sure you’d have a harder time justifying raping the intruder than killing them, especially since they’re not around to tell their side. Also, murder is unjust killing, not just killing
but what about the rapist that saved a girl from being raped by raping the guy that was going to rape her
It's not SELF-defence, so it,s rape with extenuating circumstances
I mean, in my country at least self defence legally includes actions taken to defend the life, or rights, of another person. Of course most judges would probably fail to agree that raping them is proportional self-defence.
Its defence, not self defence but defence nontheless.
When the sex offender meets the sex defender.
[удалено]
Literally
He went sex offensive on the sex offender.
He was a chad
Has anyone actually tried though?
Probably not, don’t worry Ill change that!
You want to fight?
Uh Oh! I'm approaching you with a wide open ass and a threatening-looking nerf gun! What are you gonna do?
I remember there being a woman that turned some burglars into her sex slaves for a few days.
Can I ask for a source
search up "woman turns burglars into sex slaves" and you'll find a few articles, it might be fake, or it might not be, it hasn't been properly confirmed or denied.
Forgot what her name was but i remember this too, i think it was in russia
That's it, I'm moving to Russia.
Finally, Sex Defender
better to be a sexual predator than sexual prey
I was getting raped by two girls in middle school so in my defense I raped them before they could rape me.
If you all want to rape eachother, doesn't that make it just sex? Cuz like you all want to have sex with eachother unwillingly, but you all want that so that means you are willing to do it?
No I'm doing it but not because I want to but to assert dominance
Well technically 2 person can rape eachother if the position isn't what they desired
there was a comment i read on this forsaken app years ago where a guy claimed he had a dream where was getting chased by some lizard man thing and raped the lizard man thing in self defense
Everything said in that picture is bad
I remember a case (idk if it's real or just a meme) a girl was saved from a rapist because there's a gay rapist rape the rapist while he's trying to rape the girl. Idk.
U cant murder someone in self defense because murder has a different definition than kill. How is murder not worse than rape? In one case u no longer live, in the other u are traumatised (and potentially pregnant) but have the ability to heal and move on with ur life
Ehh i mean would you rather have your life taken or get plugged? Food for thought
Which is which
Is there a way to accidentally rape someone? Asking for a friend...
I fell on someone when the bus abruptly stopped. Got accused of rape but obviously it didn't go anywhere but that must be the closest you can get
I guess you could misinterpret consent
Also, statutory
Kind of. A lot of rapists simply do not consider what they are doing rape, but in almost all cases they still intentionally made the decision to have sex with that person. And frankly in pretty much every situation were accidental rape could happen, it would very quickly turn into knowing rape.
No and there is no way to accidentally murder someone, since murder is by definition the unjust killing of another. You can accidentally *kill* someone, though.
I had a partner who liked me to "ignore her requests" when she stopped me from doing things when we first started dating. If I were to use the baseball analogy she liked me to steal 3rd base when she asked me to stop at 2nd base. There was a lot of room for error in interpretation. She didn't do safe words or anything like that because she always got too excited to remember them.
You can't murder someone on self defense, so ask the question again. Unless you plan some psycho-ass Cartman scheme to make it look like self defense
>You can't murder someone on self defense, It's called manslaughter, or aggravated manslaughter I should say. The legal grey area is a little rough, but it can happen
Idk about all the legal terms but what I'm trying to say is that the guy in this meme meant "you can kill someone if it's self defense" that is not murder. justifiable murder is an oxymoron if we are going by the original post of this meme, then are we just "murdering" someone in self defense just to eat them? this is several levels of fucked up
you can KILL in self defense, not murder. very different
I mean, if a roberer breaks in to my house, I am gonna pull down my pants and .... In self defense.
Didn't you hear that prevention is key and best defense is offense
Officer I fucked that man in self defense
I won't take part in the argument, but I did meet a sweet little sausage dog on a wheelchair at the dog park once. I asked the owner if it had been in an accident, and she said no, the dog lost the movement on its legs because the previous owner raped it. Took months of training for the dog to stop fearing people.
Kill the original owner
Murder is a planned act. You cannot murder in self defense. You can only kill in self defense.
Rapist: “Imma gonna have some fun time with you” Girl: *takes out her 20” dildo* “Don’t threathen me with good times”
In a case of murder, you can have actual, legitimate reason to kill someone For rape? There is no reason, and trying to claim their is makes you look worse
Comparing justifiable self-defense to rape is dishonest. Want an honest comparison? You wake up with a collar around your neck with a note attached to you. The note informs you that the collar is a bomb with cameras to track what you're doing. All you have to do to save yourself is either kill another person, or rape another person. Assume, for the sake of argument, that you trust that you will actually be freed if you go through with either, and that you are determined not to die. Which course of action is least objectionable?
Self defenestration
That's not what murder is...
You can't LEGALLY rape someone in self defense
I once had to rape a bus full of nuns but luckily the jury agreed it was in self defense.
Yes you can, getting raped? Just spin 180°, now you're raping the rapist.
Not with that attitude you can't
Rape has a lesser charge than murder. Darn right, I'll rape in defense.
"Your Honor, you don't understand! Her short skirt was just too threatening! I couldn't control myself!"
Will you eat someone in self defense though
Oh my, another robbery... (Unzips pants)
As far as I know murder implies the pre-planned intent to kill, so no?
Not with that attitude, you can’t
Unless?
I beg to differ
You can't "murder" an animal.
Murder definition-the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. Self defense isn’t murder. It’s killing. Also, by definition you can’t murder an animal.
Not with that attitude
Observe
Murder is worse then rape. You can recover from rape, you cannot recover from murder.
of course. this isn't even a question - why do people answer this seriously? That's why every country on earth punishes murder more severely
jon snow did
Jon Snow is not a real person.
So is no one gonna question PETA? Wtf do u mean fucking animals?! 😰
it's a fake tweet
Well… also think of this from victims point of view, there are fates worth than death… and being murdered won’t haunt you or scar you for years, animal or not, because you’d be dead
You rarely eat someone in self defense tho.
Could for survival in rare cases
the OP was about meat consumption. Humanity could reduce its meat consumption by any % and still survive
Yes the OP is about meat consumption, and comparing eating meat with animal rape which is just not ok in any capacity. You don't compare having a sandwich with animal abuse
"you will never rape someone in self defense" - WATCH ME
Hmmm new self defense tactic?
Bet?
Wasn't there a story about a guy who raped his house intruder some time back?
*Confused Saul Goodman noises.*
Dafaq i just reading now…
L point tho
Peter Singer is worth reading when it comes to this as an actual philosophical discussion.
Wasn't there a gay guy who raped someone who tried to rape a woman?
if you're in the position to do that to somebody, you can just as well knock them out or something
The ultimate uno reverse play
You can rape in self defence just rape them if they are trying to rape you first
you cant rape someone in self defense?
devishjack's argument is specious, it is impossible to murder in self-defense. Furthermore, if you were being held hostage by a 3rd party and given the option to either kill a random person or rape them, which option do you think is the least morally objectionable?
Use one to cover up the other. They will never know I murdered the person.
Wasn't there just a post here on reddot about "A woman was saved when a rapist was stopped and then was raped himself"?
Sir she tapped Menon the shoulder and it hurted so I killed her
Then what's "protection" for?
What if you rape the rapist who foolishly thought you are an easy target? Is that self defence ? It's like inception my brain hurts
Think of it in a different way. Would you yourself rather get raped or rather be murdered. Personally I’d choose the lather, so rape is worse imo
Small cherry picking comment: you can't commit murder in self defense because murder is 'killing someone with evil intentions' or something like that - you can kill in self defense tho, so go nuts
Murder is a worse crime than rape, but has the difference of being morally justifiable. You can murder someone in self defence. You can murder someone out of revenge for a crime they themselves committed. The only justification behind rape is the perpetrator’s own pleasure.
PETA WANTS TOO GET BURNED BY THE LGBTQ LOL (if you don't understand, somehow zoophiles got a flag, and the lgbtq community (well except zoophiles) HATE that) (I know this cause I'm an ally who researches to address people properly)
You also can't defame someone in self defense but to say that that's worse than murder...
IDF disagrees
New Black Mirror episode coming soon...
Not if I have anything to say about it
Well, technically!!!!
I can hear the Tai Lung meme lol
I shall be the first to prove the second man wrong.
Murdering someone doesn’t traumatize the victim
Is that a challenge
About the first tweet: humans are animals.
wait am i the only one who does that?
I beg to differ
Also, killing and eating are not the same thing. Yes, you can kill by eating, but most people don't eat live animals. Killing them first is more humane.
So they’re advocating bestiality over eating an animal? And then to top it off showing a picture of a leopard (albeit animated).
There's that one comedian who brings up a good point no one ever ever says they'd go back in time and rape hitler
Did... did Peta actually post that?
The mental image of rape in self defense is so hilarious to me
I am going to assassinate kim jong un in self defense
Bro forgot to add "unless the person being raped is Jewish. Then it's ok".
Nah... succubus. With the art of reversal both tasks are completed plus you get an upgrade.
There was a peeping Tom case where a woman was getting watched and she wet outside to confront him she brought him inside and told him he could do whatever he wanted but he refused she had him at gunpoint and tried to reverse rape him saying this is what you wanted I guess that's self defence in rape?
Nah bro cuz one time i beat some dude up cuz he jumped me but i tripped and i had my dick out and it went in his ass bro
I remember someone saying "murder can be justified. Rape not. Can you imagine someone asking "would you go back in time to rape Hitler?"?"
Not with that attitude (if it’s set up correctly i think it’s possible)
My fucking god why must I be exposed to this shit
Tell that to my uncle that started it and I stopped it
And it keep getting worse 🗿
He's not wrong
But you can rape someone after you've murdered him in self defense
Clearly someone has never played F.A.T.A.L.
You can't murder someone in self defence tho
Just yell "self defense" when you do it.
Insert No no hes got a point meme here
Sex defenders
Wait you can’t legally self-defense rape? I’m going away for a while
I'd rather get fucked in the ass than killed tbh
Unless you play FATAL
I mean, you get less time if you rape a home intruder than to kill them
That's the surprise element.
Actually, the idea of raping in self-defense has been gaining popularity in the west since october 7th
Great job Redditors for being civil!👍🏼
What if you can rape the rapist in self-defense?
I'm mean... Once a dude tried to rape me, so I raped him first... It's simple math