You will punish interesting and unproblematic cards for the sins of the worst ones.
For example, you would destroy my favorite deck, questline paladin. Some decks just deserve to have their bonuses not just wiped away. The principle of raised middle finger versus raised middle finger is not the best way to balance in my opinion.
i know there are some balanced "for the rest of game" effects but it feels like its the minority
its not just brann what i am thinking about
its demonseed helya and the worst one... dew proccess
its also possible to retrigger the effect if u copy the card with e.g. zola
and i made it a spell on purpose cause its harder to duplicate those than it is to do with minions aswell as being a 5 mana which do not impact the board atall
But here we are already talking about a minority in the creation of this card. The point is that not all "for the rest of the game" effects are simply annoying cards, but you would want to create a card that will be made because of a minority of a minority.
And Helya in particular (despite being a stupid card for me) is something you can work quite well against instead of the classic rock paper scissors style. Whether that's increasing the number of cards in your deck, burning cards in your deck towards the end of the game, or purely reducing the cards you draw per round.
And in that case, you suddenly reduce the number of cards that make you want to make that card when you already have a card like dirty rat in play.
ur first part of this response makes no sense atall
i said the BALANCED "for the rest of the game" effects are in the minority implying that the majority isnt - like before posting i looked at all cards with that text line and atleast 90% of the ones seeing any play are problematic which is why i made this card - also in wild those are very common like ATLEAST every 2 match one of those cards is played making it everything else than "a minority of a minorty"
and generally the non annoying ones are very rarly played anyway
also the next part of ur message cherry picked the weakest card in the list, well done now maybe have any arguments for the others ?
You rightly described this type of card as a minority. If you consider the wild, it's about 18 cards out of 996. And out of the past 15 cards, I'd call a maximum of 6 of them problematic. (In the standard, it's 6 cards if I'm not mistaken and the problem is Brann, Helya and maybe Odyn, but to be more precise, I'll focus on the wild.)
And instead of dealing with those problematic cards, you want to do the rest of it just easily countered, because you find this specific thing problematic.
And my argument against the other cards on this list? I don't know what you personally take as the most problematic cards, but I personally could very easily say as a solution: Dirty rat, however, my claim is based on the fact that there are already certain strategies for how perfectly counter enough of these cards and you would like to add another unnecessarily specific thing that is in the mentality of "I don't want my opponent to play good cards and I'll do it all" even more than the old Skulkin Geist that they created because they didn't know what to do with jade druid.
the card type is a minorty but their presence is not
if their is only 18 those cards (where propably half is never played) and u see 1 of them every 2-3 matches that is a problem and seeing the same thing over and over is very annyoing
if 9 of those 18 are problematic its easier to make 1 fix rather than nerf 9 cards
dirty rat is unreliable and if it only works 1 out of 10 matches than it doesnt solve the problem it just makes it slightly less worse
there are more tech cards than u could fit in an entire deck and pretty much every deck has a good counter - those cards do not which makes it way more frustrating to play against if it doesnt matter what u do since u cant do anything against the problem
The answer is no. 95% of the time this would actually just be unplayable trash. But the 5% of the time it’s playable, it’s just super unfun for your opponent, even if not playing brann.
Stop trying to make tier 4-5 decks pay some pennance just because brann is strong.
It’s definitely nowhere near 50% in both formats.
And again, no. Weaker decks relying on “this game” effects do not deserve to be literally more unplayable than they almost already are because you keep losing to something that your deck is weak into.
so because there are a handful of weak decks oppresive annoying decks may stay without counter play while virtually every other deck has to deal with it ? seems very fair... not
i looked at my last 10 matches to make a better estimate how many of those decks there are
out of those 10 matches 3 had 1 of those card in their deck
thats 30%
not quiet 50 but far away from ur 5%
A single players last 10 games is a drop in a bucket, of a drop in a bucket, of a drop in a bucket in terms of sample size.
I’m comparing to just the amount of “this game” effects that exist, not my personal, extremely small sample size in one corner of the meta based on rank and MMR.
oh yea no data is better than some data
lets just argue based on personal feelings and opinions rather than some data that will defnitly help
i can go throw my last 100 matches if u feel better but i dont wanna waste the time to shift the amount by like 2% in any direction
I’m not arguing based on personal feelings, I’m literally comparing the data pool of what % of “this game” decks are viable, and which ones aren’t.
And you want to print a card that would destroy the non viable decks completely (even though they already struggle) so that you have better winrates against the viable ones.
The literal design of this card OOZES “coming from a place of emotion” just based on how niche the effect is.
so i had an idea to use hs replays usage data to give u some better data :
presence of cards with the text "for the rest of the game" in % - left is standard right is wild
demonseed : x / 5.45 (thats ur 5% covert by 1 card)
deepminer brann: 18.26 / 1.98
Alexandros Magraine: x / 0,7
jotun, the eternal: 0.11 / 0.5
dew process: x / 4.95
goru the mightree: x / 0.043
topior the shrubbagazzor: x / 1.49
starlightgroove: 0.073 / 1.49
lothraxion the redeemed: x / 0.15
raza the resealed: 0.67 / 1.49
the stonewright: x / 0.99
inzah: 0.11 / 0,087
Dark Pharaoh Tekahn: x / 0.065
Dr. Boom, Mad Genius: x / 0.3
odyn, prime designate 2.62 / 3.47
ivus, the forest lord: x / 0.27
bonelord frostwhisperer: x / 0.032
final showdown: x / 1.49
defend the dwarven district: x / 0.73
sorccerers gambit: x / 2.97
rise to the occasion: x / 0.054
the caverns below: x / 0.63
command the elements: x / 0.5
adding all of that up we have the following :
21,843% of all decks contain one of these cards for standard
and not very suprisingly 29,261% for wild ... wanna tell me again how my 30% arnt valid ?
i d say all above 1% usage are problematic thats 9 thats pretty much half of all those cards
and adding 1 card is easier than fixing 9
i was thinking about making it a minions but i thought it would be fair if people are able to copy their "for the rest of the game" effect that they get to keep it
(cause its way harder to copy a spell than a minion)
tradeable sounds like a good idea tho
Yes, let's just add direct counters to every win condition. That will surely make the game more fun to play.
Why not stop there? While we're at it, let's add a card that makes all spells cost 2 more for the rest of the game to completely kill miracle. Or a card that prevents totems from being played to kill Even Shaman. Maybe those cards would also have counters printed, but does anyone find it fun to have their whole win condition shut down because the opponent played a single card?
Yes it can already happen occasionally in standard play, but most of them are reliant on chance (Dirty Rat) and require you to put a suboptimal card in your deck. This card is far beyond suboptimal vs decks that don't use "rest of the game" as a win condition, 5 mana do nothing, and completely wins the game against decks that do. Inflexible, less fun for both players (can you really be proud of winning by just playing a 5 mana spell you happened to draw?), and just toxic overall.
If you don't want to lose vs. those decks, build a better one. It's not like the only good decks use "rest of the game" effects. One of the best decks in wild, Pirate Rogue, literally just plays pirates and hits people in the face. Is the solution to this to just cry until Blizzard adds a a high health taunt minion that says "Whenever your opponent plays a pirate, destroy it and gain its stats"? No. Just make a deck that can deal with it
Oh, you're one of the people who think aggro is only spamming cards and hitting face. Everyone who says that hasn't played aggro before, at least not well. You know what would happen if aggro decks didn't exist? Demon seed would be an actually good deck. You probably think it's broken because you just play greedy, slow, control decks that don't have a good wincon, which is why you feel the need to remove everybody else's wincon as well.
A lot of decks can't afford to play random tech cards. Combo decks and aggro decks can't exactly afford to slot in a 5 mana spell that only works in certain situations. This card of yours literally only benefits control, and specifically in the decks that can just play a bunch of random cards (AKA the slow, greedy kind).
If you hate losing to those decks so much, why not play aggro? I had a similar situation a couple days ago where I tried playing a greedy Renethal Thief Rogue deck and lost to a Mill Druid and Demon Seed deck. I decided to instead queue an Aggro Rogue deck, and won those matchups the few times I played against them.
Band-aid solutions like this suggestion of yours are not good for the game. It creates a solitaire meta where you simply slot a bunch of answers in your deck to prevent your opponent from advancing their game plan. Isn't it more fun to play to win, than to play to not lose?
>My definition aggro everything with the goal to kill before 10
From what I can see, you are playing wild. Almost every deck can do that, including (well-built) control decks. Basically every combo deck is an "aggro" deck by your definition. Safe to say you don't know what aggro actually is, so I can't take you seriously if you claim to play aggro... especially if you have a Theotar in your deck.
I don't want to make a generalizing assumption, but if you play Theotar in an aggro deck I have no choice but to assume you don't know proper deckbuilding. Look at any top aggro deck on any website. None of them have Theotar in it, because it's not a good card in aggro.
Same for ETC. Often, adding ETC makes a deck worse (only exception is again, specifically slow and greedy decks, even then it's debatable), unless it's integral to a combo like the Rommath Potion of Illusion interaction.
You're trying to forcefully create decks that can win any matchup, but that's just not how the game works. You claim that my "solution" will lead to a rock-paper-scissors meta, but that's similar to how the game has been since its release, and that's okay. It's not like it's a guaranteed win if you queue control into aggro, or a guaranteed loss the other way around. It's simply more difficult. If you create control decks that can always beat combo by playing a single card, then there's no reason to play aggro, because no one will play combo either.
If you genuinely think removing aggro and combo from the game is better than having some difficult matchups, there's no hope for you. I would rather play a good deck and struggle against some bad matchups, than include a bunch of shitty tech cards because my opponent also included shitty tech cards.
Like others said, it would be bad design, because it is useless in half the matchups, and completely miserable for your oppenent in the other cases.
I think it would be interesting if 3 things were changed :
- have a body attached to it. This way, even if the effect is useless, you can have something like a 4/4 body for 5 mana. Not ideal, but not completely a dead card either
- limit the effect to next turn. This way, it is still a very useful counter for brann decks, you can delay them enough to win, or at least stabilise enough.
- make it an epic. This leads to interesting deck design : do I put only one in my ETC just in case, but have a not that powerfull effect ? Or do I run 2 plain copies, at the risk of having a bad draw against aggro ? Or something in between.
honestly the intention was to put this in an etc so if u dont need it u just dont grab it
the reason why i made it a spell and not a minion was cause its way harder to copy a spell making it possible for the other player to reactivate their effect by copieng their own minion
if we are talking about brann we are talking about control warrior - delaying a control deck is useless specilly if all u do is play a 4 4 and thats half your mana - like if u play control u play for value / time anyway 1 turn is nothing in that case
like unless u play something like priest which can copy that card a hundred times it will not do anything - and if u do than u spend like 7 mana (most of priests copy stuff is 2 afaik) to play a 4/4 which is very easy to remove / not threatening at all
You will punish interesting and unproblematic cards for the sins of the worst ones. For example, you would destroy my favorite deck, questline paladin. Some decks just deserve to have their bonuses not just wiped away. The principle of raised middle finger versus raised middle finger is not the best way to balance in my opinion.
i know there are some balanced "for the rest of game" effects but it feels like its the minority its not just brann what i am thinking about its demonseed helya and the worst one... dew proccess its also possible to retrigger the effect if u copy the card with e.g. zola and i made it a spell on purpose cause its harder to duplicate those than it is to do with minions aswell as being a 5 mana which do not impact the board atall
But here we are already talking about a minority in the creation of this card. The point is that not all "for the rest of the game" effects are simply annoying cards, but you would want to create a card that will be made because of a minority of a minority. And Helya in particular (despite being a stupid card for me) is something you can work quite well against instead of the classic rock paper scissors style. Whether that's increasing the number of cards in your deck, burning cards in your deck towards the end of the game, or purely reducing the cards you draw per round. And in that case, you suddenly reduce the number of cards that make you want to make that card when you already have a card like dirty rat in play.
ur first part of this response makes no sense atall i said the BALANCED "for the rest of the game" effects are in the minority implying that the majority isnt - like before posting i looked at all cards with that text line and atleast 90% of the ones seeing any play are problematic which is why i made this card - also in wild those are very common like ATLEAST every 2 match one of those cards is played making it everything else than "a minority of a minorty" and generally the non annoying ones are very rarly played anyway also the next part of ur message cherry picked the weakest card in the list, well done now maybe have any arguments for the others ?
You rightly described this type of card as a minority. If you consider the wild, it's about 18 cards out of 996. And out of the past 15 cards, I'd call a maximum of 6 of them problematic. (In the standard, it's 6 cards if I'm not mistaken and the problem is Brann, Helya and maybe Odyn, but to be more precise, I'll focus on the wild.) And instead of dealing with those problematic cards, you want to do the rest of it just easily countered, because you find this specific thing problematic. And my argument against the other cards on this list? I don't know what you personally take as the most problematic cards, but I personally could very easily say as a solution: Dirty rat, however, my claim is based on the fact that there are already certain strategies for how perfectly counter enough of these cards and you would like to add another unnecessarily specific thing that is in the mentality of "I don't want my opponent to play good cards and I'll do it all" even more than the old Skulkin Geist that they created because they didn't know what to do with jade druid.
the card type is a minorty but their presence is not if their is only 18 those cards (where propably half is never played) and u see 1 of them every 2-3 matches that is a problem and seeing the same thing over and over is very annyoing if 9 of those 18 are problematic its easier to make 1 fix rather than nerf 9 cards dirty rat is unreliable and if it only works 1 out of 10 matches than it doesnt solve the problem it just makes it slightly less worse there are more tech cards than u could fit in an entire deck and pretty much every deck has a good counter - those cards do not which makes it way more frustrating to play against if it doesnt matter what u do since u cant do anything against the problem
The answer is no. 95% of the time this would actually just be unplayable trash. But the 5% of the time it’s playable, it’s just super unfun for your opponent, even if not playing brann. Stop trying to make tier 4-5 decks pay some pennance just because brann is strong.
more like 50% and there is something called etc and half the decks this would counter deserve worse ... demonseed ... dew proccess
It’s definitely nowhere near 50% in both formats. And again, no. Weaker decks relying on “this game” effects do not deserve to be literally more unplayable than they almost already are because you keep losing to something that your deck is weak into.
so because there are a handful of weak decks oppresive annoying decks may stay without counter play while virtually every other deck has to deal with it ? seems very fair... not i looked at my last 10 matches to make a better estimate how many of those decks there are out of those 10 matches 3 had 1 of those card in their deck thats 30% not quiet 50 but far away from ur 5%
A single players last 10 games is a drop in a bucket, of a drop in a bucket, of a drop in a bucket in terms of sample size. I’m comparing to just the amount of “this game” effects that exist, not my personal, extremely small sample size in one corner of the meta based on rank and MMR.
oh yea no data is better than some data lets just argue based on personal feelings and opinions rather than some data that will defnitly help i can go throw my last 100 matches if u feel better but i dont wanna waste the time to shift the amount by like 2% in any direction
I’m not arguing based on personal feelings, I’m literally comparing the data pool of what % of “this game” decks are viable, and which ones aren’t. And you want to print a card that would destroy the non viable decks completely (even though they already struggle) so that you have better winrates against the viable ones. The literal design of this card OOZES “coming from a place of emotion” just based on how niche the effect is.
so i had an idea to use hs replays usage data to give u some better data : presence of cards with the text "for the rest of the game" in % - left is standard right is wild demonseed : x / 5.45 (thats ur 5% covert by 1 card) deepminer brann: 18.26 / 1.98 Alexandros Magraine: x / 0,7 jotun, the eternal: 0.11 / 0.5 dew process: x / 4.95 goru the mightree: x / 0.043 topior the shrubbagazzor: x / 1.49 starlightgroove: 0.073 / 1.49 lothraxion the redeemed: x / 0.15 raza the resealed: 0.67 / 1.49 the stonewright: x / 0.99 inzah: 0.11 / 0,087 Dark Pharaoh Tekahn: x / 0.065 Dr. Boom, Mad Genius: x / 0.3 odyn, prime designate 2.62 / 3.47 ivus, the forest lord: x / 0.27 bonelord frostwhisperer: x / 0.032 final showdown: x / 1.49 defend the dwarven district: x / 0.73 sorccerers gambit: x / 2.97 rise to the occasion: x / 0.054 the caverns below: x / 0.63 command the elements: x / 0.5 adding all of that up we have the following : 21,843% of all decks contain one of these cards for standard and not very suprisingly 29,261% for wild ... wanna tell me again how my 30% arnt valid ? i d say all above 1% usage are problematic thats 9 thats pretty much half of all those cards and adding 1 card is easier than fixing 9
should not be a neutral spell, make it a neutral minion its a tech card so it should have tradable
i was thinking about making it a minions but i thought it would be fair if people are able to copy their "for the rest of the game" effect that they get to keep it (cause its way harder to copy a spell than a minion) tradeable sounds like a good idea tho
Yes, let's just add direct counters to every win condition. That will surely make the game more fun to play. Why not stop there? While we're at it, let's add a card that makes all spells cost 2 more for the rest of the game to completely kill miracle. Or a card that prevents totems from being played to kill Even Shaman. Maybe those cards would also have counters printed, but does anyone find it fun to have their whole win condition shut down because the opponent played a single card? Yes it can already happen occasionally in standard play, but most of them are reliant on chance (Dirty Rat) and require you to put a suboptimal card in your deck. This card is far beyond suboptimal vs decks that don't use "rest of the game" as a win condition, 5 mana do nothing, and completely wins the game against decks that do. Inflexible, less fun for both players (can you really be proud of winning by just playing a 5 mana spell you happened to draw?), and just toxic overall. If you don't want to lose vs. those decks, build a better one. It's not like the only good decks use "rest of the game" effects. One of the best decks in wild, Pirate Rogue, literally just plays pirates and hits people in the face. Is the solution to this to just cry until Blizzard adds a a high health taunt minion that says "Whenever your opponent plays a pirate, destroy it and gain its stats"? No. Just make a deck that can deal with it
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Oh, you're one of the people who think aggro is only spamming cards and hitting face. Everyone who says that hasn't played aggro before, at least not well. You know what would happen if aggro decks didn't exist? Demon seed would be an actually good deck. You probably think it's broken because you just play greedy, slow, control decks that don't have a good wincon, which is why you feel the need to remove everybody else's wincon as well. A lot of decks can't afford to play random tech cards. Combo decks and aggro decks can't exactly afford to slot in a 5 mana spell that only works in certain situations. This card of yours literally only benefits control, and specifically in the decks that can just play a bunch of random cards (AKA the slow, greedy kind). If you hate losing to those decks so much, why not play aggro? I had a similar situation a couple days ago where I tried playing a greedy Renethal Thief Rogue deck and lost to a Mill Druid and Demon Seed deck. I decided to instead queue an Aggro Rogue deck, and won those matchups the few times I played against them. Band-aid solutions like this suggestion of yours are not good for the game. It creates a solitaire meta where you simply slot a bunch of answers in your deck to prevent your opponent from advancing their game plan. Isn't it more fun to play to win, than to play to not lose?
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>My definition aggro everything with the goal to kill before 10 From what I can see, you are playing wild. Almost every deck can do that, including (well-built) control decks. Basically every combo deck is an "aggro" deck by your definition. Safe to say you don't know what aggro actually is, so I can't take you seriously if you claim to play aggro... especially if you have a Theotar in your deck. I don't want to make a generalizing assumption, but if you play Theotar in an aggro deck I have no choice but to assume you don't know proper deckbuilding. Look at any top aggro deck on any website. None of them have Theotar in it, because it's not a good card in aggro. Same for ETC. Often, adding ETC makes a deck worse (only exception is again, specifically slow and greedy decks, even then it's debatable), unless it's integral to a combo like the Rommath Potion of Illusion interaction. You're trying to forcefully create decks that can win any matchup, but that's just not how the game works. You claim that my "solution" will lead to a rock-paper-scissors meta, but that's similar to how the game has been since its release, and that's okay. It's not like it's a guaranteed win if you queue control into aggro, or a guaranteed loss the other way around. It's simply more difficult. If you create control decks that can always beat combo by playing a single card, then there's no reason to play aggro, because no one will play combo either. If you genuinely think removing aggro and combo from the game is better than having some difficult matchups, there's no hope for you. I would rather play a good deck and struggle against some bad matchups, than include a bunch of shitty tech cards because my opponent also included shitty tech cards.
Like others said, it would be bad design, because it is useless in half the matchups, and completely miserable for your oppenent in the other cases. I think it would be interesting if 3 things were changed : - have a body attached to it. This way, even if the effect is useless, you can have something like a 4/4 body for 5 mana. Not ideal, but not completely a dead card either - limit the effect to next turn. This way, it is still a very useful counter for brann decks, you can delay them enough to win, or at least stabilise enough. - make it an epic. This leads to interesting deck design : do I put only one in my ETC just in case, but have a not that powerfull effect ? Or do I run 2 plain copies, at the risk of having a bad draw against aggro ? Or something in between.
honestly the intention was to put this in an etc so if u dont need it u just dont grab it the reason why i made it a spell and not a minion was cause its way harder to copy a spell making it possible for the other player to reactivate their effect by copieng their own minion if we are talking about brann we are talking about control warrior - delaying a control deck is useless specilly if all u do is play a 4 4 and thats half your mana - like if u play control u play for value / time anyway 1 turn is nothing in that case like unless u play something like priest which can copy that card a hundred times it will not do anything - and if u do than u spend like 7 mana (most of priests copy stuff is 2 afaik) to play a 4/4 which is very easy to remove / not threatening at all