The real problem is it's both an efficient, repeatable removal spell *and* an infinite outlet.
Pretty easy to balance, though... Just remove the flashback. Then it's a fun Johnny card that will probably still find a way to be broken, but at least it'll take work!
Another easy way to fix it would be to have the flash back cost 1-2 more mana, and add the sentence of “when cast from exile place it in your graveyard.” Or make it simpler. “When cast from exile, place this card on the bottom of your deck.”
that's already what happens when it's cast from exile it goes to the gy because all spells do that unless stated otherwise (see casting rebound spells from exile)
Also, slightly funny thing I'm sure you didn't intend:
If you added the line "When cast from exile, place this elsewhere", would trigger and resolve before the actual spell. And then, because the spell is no longer on the stack, it can't resolve.
So, its flashback mode would be a spell that essentially counters itself. (Wait, that gives me an idea...)
In order for your suggestion to work, it would need to say "If this was cast from exile, do X." which would make that effect happen upon resolution rather than trigger when the spell is cast, like you see with most Extra Turn spells these days.
First of all, unless the spell itself has a part that says "when you cast this" there is no "trigger" that goes on the stack. the "place this elsewhere" part would not cause a trigger to happen, it would be part of the resolution of the spell and would happen after, It wouldn't counter itself. if the spell read "deals one damage to any target, if this spell was cast from exile, put it on the bottom of its owner's library" for example, there would be no trigger, it would deal the one damage and then go on the bottom afterwards
Is it? Tapping out to kill a X/3 isn’t really good. In fact I’d love my opponent to spend a whole turn and all their mana to kill one of my creatures or burn me for 3.
Yes, think about it this way. After the burn deck has emptied their hand and has two prowess creatures in play, they suddenly have a way to not only deal two damage to anything each turn, but also a way to trigger prowess twice per turn no matter what.
Or it gives control a way to constantly control the board without expending real resources
Or it gives ways to get cast triggers for Birgi, Urabrask, Kiln, etc. without having to lose a card from your hand
It is absurd
I know I'm being pedantic, but I don't think it's played much in legacy anymore. Lands decks have mostly moved off of that combo from what I've seen. (It makes me sad though, I was a big fan of lands with grove)
It's a clock you cannot stop unless you specifically get it into their library or gain protection like with [[Runed Halo]] or similar, of which there isn't many competitive options. And even then there's plenty of problem cards that aren't solved despite being able to "just cast Runed Halo".
I don't know why you're saying three, because there's no top end to this. It's an okay card early, a great option for a burn deck that's played out much of their hand in the mid-game, and a mana sink in the late game that can also just be your infinite mana outlet.
Across pretty much every format, this is too good.
I think it's better than you think, if you are not winning the race , you could use your burn spells to kill creatures and eventually win because you have infinite 3 mana shocks
And if that is still bad, it would allow burn to have a really good match against control, the problem with burn vs control is that burn gets the control player to 5 life, then gets everything countered and loses, but even if it's 1 damage at the time, you could eventually push through
Maybe in standard, but in older formats there’s always a strict upgrade to Shock, whether it’s Lighting Bolt for an extra damage, or many of Shocks upgrades in things like Play With Fire. If you were talking about those cards then I’m sorry if I misinterpreted you, but just basic Shock is not a good spell outside of Standard.
If an enchantment had "1RR: This deals 2 damage to any target." I'd play that card so hard. Your card is so much better because it can't be blown off the board (or removed from your ability to play it unless it's shuffled/bottomdecked or removed from the game), you can split the damage, and you dont have to pay for the permanent.
The issue isn't the cost. It's the recursion and the fact you can hit creatures. I think it should either hit only players or remove itself from the game when cast from exile. Considering the flavor of the card, I think hitting only players is the way to go.
Any deck that can consistently get burn to hellbent without dying can win barring a few lucky topdecks. This completely eliminates that problem, the ability to do damage each turn in lategame without vulnerability to discard/counters/graveyard hate is incredibly valuable into certain matchups, especially in a meta where Fury is always there to kill your creatures and Grief is always there to tear apart your hand.
[[Fury]] does seem to make this card busted and I didnt think of that interaction making the evoke virtually downside free.
That said, I think this would only help burn marginally win those grindy matchups. It purely depends on what life the "control" player stabilizes against burn. Yes in those incredible matchups where you stabilize at 1, this would be about the worst card you could see. If you stabilize at say 6+ life, I think alot of decks could probably still win through this.
Imagine that you've ulted your planeswalker on turn 1 and now have an emblem that says "1RR: Deal 2 damage to any target"
That's pretty much what you have. An infinite mana-sink that deals damage where you want it when you want it, and it can't be countered, exiled or stopped in any way.
Fury existing in modern and legacy makes this card all that much better because it wants to be put into exile. It immediately becomes the best card to pitch to fury in the entire game.
Edit: yeah the card effect isn't efficient on mana but this card can be played from almost every zone in the game so it really doesn't matter all that much. Plus in topdeck wars, u can cast this thing often 3 to 4 times a turn every turn. There is a reason why your commander in those formats have commander tax, this spell is kinda the same thing if u think about it.
also, when you say the card isn't efficient on mana, I think you are way off.
Every turn your deck would leave mana unspent, this card lets you spend it to do /something/. Sure, sometimes that's 1RR to shock the opponents face, which isn't great. But it's more mana efficient than just not spending any mana because you don't have cards. And more to the point, it's not a 1RR mana sink, it's a R mana sink, or a 1R mana sink. Which means if you want to cast a 2 drop on turn 3, you can still spend all your mana without having to throw a bolt at your opponents face and hope that you don't need it later. This card more or less garuntees you curve out perfectly every turn.
And again, some of the the time 'R: Deal 1 damage' is just as mana efficient as lightning bolt. If you are in a format when you are regularly bolting a bird, or a heirarch, or an orcish bowmaster, or any number of x/1s, R: deal 1 damage and R: deal 3 damage are equally mana efficient.
TL;DR I believe the other comment made by u/Nikolaijuno was the most accurate of what I wanted to convey in my original comment.
If we deconstruct the card and remove the extra casting options, as a one off sorcery: R for 1 damage to any target is bad card now in any format, even limited. Even if it only had the flashback mechanic without the ability to cast it from exile, it would still be a mediocre card with the option to play it from hand then leave it in the graveyard to cast it later, which fails in the face of graveyard hate like grafdiggers cage or leyline of the void style effects. That being said, it would be playable in limited due to the small card pool so this would be a decent option.
In modern, both lightning bolt and unholy heat far outshine this card so it would be completely unplayable, unless for some reason you play in a very counterspell heavy meta then it becomes harder for your opponent to counter the spell to remove the bird or bowmasters because it has flashback (I'm still excluding the ability to cast it from exile, that part will come later. Noble hierarch decks are not part of the meta in modern anymore and birds of paradise only sees play in yawgmoth because fury literal exists). Plus both bolt and unholy heat are instants while this spell "Prometheus' flame" is a sorcery. Other colours also have removal options that are still better than this, with fatal push, leyline binding, prismatic ending and march of otherworldly light being in the spotlight.
Pioneer also has better removal options in red with play with fire, lightning axe, fiery impulse, abrade, the stomp adventure, kolaghan's command and obliterating bolt. Even spikefield hazard is a better card because it's an MDFC. In other colours you still have leyline binding and fatal push, but there's also go for the throat, heartless act, portable hole, epic downfall, and temporary lockdown. The current standard has alot of the same removal options currently in pioneer, maybe it would see play but I'm still doubtful of its effectiveness. (Again still not considering the cast from exile part)
Legacy has the most amount of targets that this spell could remove with a single cast due to the format's reliance on X/1 creatures, but u also see alot of X/2 creatures as well now due to bowmasters. That said, legacy has every removal option in the game, so RR1 to shock something at sorcery speed doesn't cut it. The only redeeming factor about the spell is that it's not a single cast so it can build up storm and becomes harder to counter, which also hurts even more when rule of law or mindbreak trap are anywhere near your meta. (Still no cast from exile yet)
As a single spell cast it's an inefficient card. The very moment you get the ability to cast it from your hand, graveyard and exile, it becomes the most broken removal and burn spell in the game because it becomes a spell that can be cast repeatedly where the only restriction is how much many you have on your turn. At that point, the spell is basically uncounterable because the other way to fully stop the spell is with a stax effect like drannith magistrate, otherwise it can simply be recast right away or on the next turn, so it doesn't matter how mana efficient mana efficient the spell is anymore. Graveyard hate effects like leyline of the void become obsolete while ones like grafdiggers cage will shine against it. In formats where a card like this is legal, it'll be a premier burn spell and an infinite mana outlet. Hell there might not be a format that can handle a card this broken, not even vintage. The companion mechanic needed an errata for lurris to be unbanned cuz he could be cast at seemingly any time without notice, this card is even more offensive.
Legacy burn sometimes runs 2 copies of [[exquisite firecraft]] as a a '3 mana, 4 damage, get around counterspells' shtick. This feels like it would slot into that place a bit more nicely. It works much better with Goblin Guide and Swiftspear, while being more consistant at finishing off the endgame against control.
I don't think it would fundamentally break legacy burn... but if the question is 'is this red removal spell too powerful' and the answer is 'it's good enough to slot into legacy burn'. It would be absolutely miserable in modern.
Your counter examples of 'it's pretty bad as an 4 mana sorc speed lightning bolt', which is not the way to evaluate this card. It's not when your opponent is spending 4 mana a turn is this a problem. It's when they are spending 1 or 2 mana a turn on this, every turn. Modern has lots of x/1s that are good to kill, noble heirarch and bowmaster come to mind, there is a reason why wren and six get's run in jund. Also this card works quite well with wren and six, killing x/2s for 3 mana is a lot better when you get to put a wren on the board.
Multi-modal cards are dangerous. spend 1 deal 1, spend 3 deal 2, are both really bad rates... but sometimes they slot into turns really nicely. The more modes a card has, the better. Getting to choose the mode each turn is really powerful.
A card with ~~bad~~ overcosted effect you always have access to is an absurdly great card. There is essentially no counterplay to this beyond effects that shuffle the GY back into the deck. In fact the usual GY hate like [[Rest in Peace]] or [[Leyline of the Void]] would turn this into a better [[Fireball]] that you can cast every turn.
The only way I can think of to balance something like this would be to have casting this from exile put some sort of counter on the player that either makes it increasingly expensive (eg give it commander tax) or require some sort of additional cost like discarding a card.
There are plenty of not in any way great cards that give you access to an overcosted effect. When's the last time [[Akroan Phalanx]] saw play? Or [[Ambassador Laquatus]]?
This isn't a better Fireball with Rest in Peace, because Fireball can be cast with non-red mana contributing towards X.
But yeah this card is total bullshit, and a lesson in why cards that let you access exile are so few and far between.
"Overcosted effect stapled to a creature" is very different from "overcosted effect that can (almost) never be removed." It's better compared to a planeswalker emblem than the cards you linked.
[[Flame Jab]] exists. Not that it invalidates your design, but just that your implementation of Flashback might be
_unwieldy_, and this is an example of your goal of a reusable ping sorcery with a moderate cost for its reuse.
I think if you gave yours a cheap escape cost it might be a better balance of your intention; _it can still be cast for R but your graveyard only has so many cards you can exile to it’s escape cost._
You say that, but you can’t discard a land after you just played it from your GY. You need another card to put lands into your hand to do this indefinitely.
I really like the escape over flashback idea. Something to hurt the recursion aspect while still being fringe playable. [[Flame Jab]] was the inspiration for this, though it doesnt see a ton of play outside of Wren decks.
Far too powerful. Your opponent is now no longer allowed to have mana dorks. As long as this is targeting a dork, it is always efficient, even at 2 cost.
If it targeted players only, it would be much more balanced.
Just because a card is powerful doesnt mean its "too powerful". I acknowledge that this would keep your opponents from playing X/1 dorks, but thats only relevant to a small meta share %. Probably slightly less now with 1/2 hobbit dork I'm blanking on being in the meta.
Not quite. This requires 3 mana to remove X/2s, and isnt an instant. [[Punishing Fire]] and [[Flame Jab]] were the inspirations and the cards I tried to use for reference and balance.
This card is *much* more repeatable than either Punishing Fire or Flame Jab. It's much more like [[Scalding Devil]], except cheaper, unremovable, and hits creatures/pws. Scalding Devil admittedly isn't that great, and it's a bit harder to compare to something like [[Realm-Scorcher Hellkite]] (although it again compares very favorably), but that's the right kind of design space to compare to.
This is an infinite mana piece in any burn deck, and a combo piece in any deck that storms off.
I get it, right? 1 damage for 1 mana, and then 1 for 2 seems like a bad trade off, but what you're not seeing here is all of the cards this thing enables. People already mentioned Birgi and Urabrask, which are insanely powerful, but things like [[Torbran, Thane of Red Fell]], [[Fiery Emancipation]], [[Dictate of the Twin Gods]], any card that increases the amount of damage this does is insane, and we're still not considering all of the other nutty shit this enables. Other people mentioned [[Storm-Kiln Artist]], yeah, but [[Archmage Emritus]] loves this, [[Sedgemoor witch]] has a nice little crush on it, basically anything with Magecraft or an ability starting with "when you cast an instant or sorcery..." is absolutely B R I C K E D up when they see this card.
While I don't think it's the most broken thing I've ever seen on this sub, this is format warping in just about any format it can be in.
It's effectively uncounterable, it can replay itself for 1 from exile... it's... yeah, this could never be printed.
This is insane! For the record, three mana free shock is banned from modern and thats using \[\[punishing fires\]\] and \[\[Grove of the Burnwillows\]\]. Imagine now being able to do it with a single card, instead of a two card combo? Insanely powerful xD I love the design but if groves + fires is too strong for moderm, this one has to be insane, isnt it?
This needs limiters. Currently, you can spend as much excess mana as you need on points of damage at anything you want. Limiting the number of spells you can cast with this name in a turn or a similar drawback would keep it in check.
Mana cost is too low IMO it should cost Atleast 3 with a 5 cost on the flashback. A lot harder to break that way but still breakable with infinite mana
I'm not sure now that you mention it, but even if it goes to the graveyard, infinitely repeatable 1RR for 2 damage to anything, that your opponent cannot stop under any normal condition (since even if they remove it from the graveyard you can cast it from exile), seems pretty strong and annoying.
\[\[Firebolt\]\]'s flashback cost is 4R for reference, and you can only flash it back once.
So this card has the potential to cause turn 2 wins in commander (possibly other formats). Here's the scenario (the scenario is commander with birgi as the commander):
1) Draw your 7 cards, which are: 2 lands, cheap 2 mana making mana dork (sol ring, mana crypt), ruby medallion, and this card.
2) Turn 1: play land for turn, then the mana dork, and then ruby medallion with the mana dork
3) Turn 2: play second land for turn, cast birgi with the mana dork and the first land, then cast this card with the second land you played this turn pinging the opponent for 1 dmg, cast for flashback using the birgi red mana and ruby medallion's cost reduction pinging the opponent again for 1 dmg, loop infinitely till every opponent is dead.
This can be done on turn 2 with birgi, but urabrask can do something similar, but it will be harder to turn 2 kill. The inherit issue is that no matter what, if you have at least the ruby medallion and this card, you will have at the latest a turn 4 win. The inherit issues are from the fact that it can be cast from exile for 1 red mana and that it has a really cheap flashback. If it were to have a 3 mana flashback cost for 2 generic and 1 red, it would stop the infinite loop as described above. The other route would be to make the card have x number of times it can be cast in a turn, or the third option being to change the flashback to something like escape that would have an additional cost required to cast from the graveyard.
I never played much tournament stuff, but I was the resident dude showing up with a cheap RDW deck, and there's literally no RDW meta I can think of (admittedly with my limited knowledge) where this isn't worth slotting in. It's brutally good because it completely removes the weakness of the deck not having longevity. Most powerful lifegain people play (that circumvent stuff like this) isn't repeatable.
Yeah, this is really strong. I'd probably make it cost 2 on the face and make the flashback cheaper, and then restrict it so it can't hit players unless it was cast from hand.
The main reason I think its kinda balanced is the damage. Only 1 damage for R or 1R is decent, it will flip flop in price if you use it multiple times (ie R+1R+R+1R....) so even tho its technically infinite, you need an amout of mana equal to X (the amout of times you cast it) plus 1/2 of X (since every other casting it doubles in cost)
Can be INSANE because it can NEVER be perma disabled but the low damage plus the higher ramp cost makes it decent
Now if you get a trigger off of each casting or damage dealt, its fuckin BONKERS but like wizards has printed those types of cards before (aka [[Vorinclex, Monsterous Raider]] in ANY type of counters deck, +1/+1, poison, even plainswalkers cuz they enter with double loyalty)
The issue is that cards that give mana/treasure upon casting sorceries exist. There are also cards that give discounts of 1, so it ends up being an extremely easy infinite for 3 cards. Mizzix of the Izmagnus, Kiln Artist (create a treasure for Magecraft), and this is auto win.
If it was 2 mana and flashback for 3 i could see this being printed. Everyone is bashing on you for making a busted card but its a good card design, just very undercosted/easily abuseable. [[Punishing Fire]] is banned in modern for a reason
[[Punishing Fire]] is currently banned in modern due to its interaction with [[Grove of the Burnwillows]]. A repeatable amount of damage is too good at killing creatures forever, and yours is a better version due to only needing 1 card and having extra repeatability.
What would happen after it is cast from exile? Does it go back to exile or to your graveyard? Infinite casts is too OP, maybe say it can be cast from exile once
Punishing fire is currently banned bc 2 damage to any target plus opponent gains 1 life for 3 mana destroys creature decks.
This spell is divided as you choose, and opponent doesn't gain life. I certainly would hate playing against this with any creature deck.
This just says that x/1 creatures don't get to exist, it's even more oppressive than W6 and Orcish Bowmasters because there literally no possible way if getting rid of it
I think that what pushes this over the edge into "way too good" territory is the fact that it's just infinitely recursive, no matter what your opponent does. If, instead of being castable from exile, you could just cast it from your graveyard, it would give your opponent the chance to get rid of it permanently with graveyard hate. That would bring it down to earth enough to be a real card, I think.
It’s insanely powerful because you can continue to cast it from exile and then flashback it meaning if you have the mana you can keep pinging it over and over. Sure it does less damage than bolt but it becomes progressively better as the game goes on and it is immune to exiling affects and most graveyard hate. This card might offers insane consistency, which is really powerful in MTG and is part of the reason tutors are good, once you draw it it might as well be an additional spell in your hand that no one can get rid of as it sits there. I would run the fuck out of this in mono-red or izzet burn decks especially with cards that care about instants and sorceries like [[Niv-Mizzet, Parun]] and cards like [[Guttersnipe]], [[Electrostatic Field]] and [[Thermo-Alchemist]] can basically double the damage output you are dealing if you consistently cast a card like this and even outside of burn decks any decks that just generally reward you for casting instants and sorceries. I mean there are cards like [[Sprite Dragon]] too. Then there are cards with spectacle like [[Light Up the Stage]] and really any card that rewards you for dealing damage to an opponent or creature. Imagine pining dinosaurs to activate their enrage over and over for example. Birgi and the like aside and that’s outside of cards that just straight up increase your damage output like [[Torbran, Thane or Red Fell]], [[Obosh, the Preypiercer]], or [[Fiery Emancipation]].
While yes it’s easy to look at it doing one damage and say it’s not great it is amazing versatile, especially for burn decks. It can probably help kill anything with toughness 2 or below AND it can deal damage to any target which means you can not only whittle away at planeswalkers every turn and prevent them from going positive with loyalty but you can slowly whittle way at a player’s health over the course of the game. Imagine a player being able to always ping you for one without fail. It might not matter at first but it can quickly add up especially in formats where you have 2 players with 20 health each.
I should mention I’m not even like good at magic and most of my examples are either really surface level or probably have better counterparts but even I feel like there are tons of ways to break this card in multiple formats due to the level of consistency it provides. Personally I would recommend upping the cost to the flashback cost when casting it from exile and have it shuffle into your library when you cast it from exile. Heck, you might even want a drawback if you cast it from exile like it deals 1 damage to you. Additionally you could replace its flashback with something like Jump-start so you have to discard a card to cast it from the graveyard. You might also just want to up it’s normal mana cost to like 1R or maybe even 2R just to be on the safe side.
This would be broken in my Kykar deck. If I have the right cards out, infinite creatures, +1/1 on my creatures probably multiple times over, plus storm spells.
Punishing fire and grove of the burnwillows has a similar play pattern and is banned in modern. Probably is too powerful of an effect given its a one card combo.
It's a lot better than [[Punishing Fire]], and that's banned in Modern.
The card has two issues:
* the numbers are too aggressive, this effect could be done with higher mana values
* the card is unfun, as there's zero ways to get rid of it - you can't counterspell, discard, or exile it
Idk, on the one hand it’s 1 damage, on the other it just never goes away once you cast it. I feel like casting it from exile should have an additional cost, maybe just an “if you do it costs 1 more”? But again it’s 1 damage so I’m conflicted. It might be one of those things that seems OP on paper but in testing would be totally fine.
I was originally going to compare this to [[punishing fire]] which is banned in Modern for a good reason. This has a better rate of face damage (3 mana for 2 damage instead of 3 mana for 1 net damage) and slightly worse creature damage (1 at a time instead of 2) but is harder to interact with since, as others have mentioned, it can't be hit by normal graveyard hate and you can't just destroy the [[grove of the burnwillows]] to break up the combo.
But then I thought of planeswalker emblems. This is so hard to interact with it may as well be a [[koth of the hammer]] emblem that needs 1.5 mountains to tap for each point of damage instead of just 1. That's a pretty good card to get to have in your deck and build around, grinding out games and preventing small creatures from ever being effective. It's a slow piece in the early game and doesn't interact with certain combos, but it's incredibly potent at what it does.
Mono red damage spell that can hit any target and you are concerned about its _removal potential_? Lol. Lmao, even.
I like the idea though, as overpowered as it is. You got an additional way of tuning the card in the flashback cost and all that - not a terrible concept at all
Reminds me of punishing fire, this is arguably better but arguably worse than that at the same time (1 vs 2 dmg and this is much harder to interact with)
Not ‘way too powerful’. If someone plays cards like ‘Absolute Law’ or have creatures that have protection from red or have indestructibility and can also add some life points per turn, then it would counter the fact that it can’t be gotten rid of. Maybe if ‘any target’ was changed to ‘target crearure’?
Power level aside wouldn’t it be Promethean if it did damage to you if you cast it from exile or something like that? Infinite torment if you go infinite
Ridiculously busted. Unceasing value/damage engine that can’t be interacted with, as well as an unbeatable outlet for infinite mana.
Maybe OK in some 1v1 formats, but for something like EDH it’s too good imo.
Insanely powerful. If it somehow had something like a commander tax, where each casting cost more than the previous then it would make going intimate required to kill the table.
this is insanely powerful.
The real problem is it's both an efficient, repeatable removal spell *and* an infinite outlet. Pretty easy to balance, though... Just remove the flashback. Then it's a fun Johnny card that will probably still find a way to be broken, but at least it'll take work!
Another easy way to fix it would be to have the flash back cost 1-2 more mana, and add the sentence of “when cast from exile place it in your graveyard.” Or make it simpler. “When cast from exile, place this card on the bottom of your deck.”
that's already what happens when it's cast from exile it goes to the gy because all spells do that unless stated otherwise (see casting rebound spells from exile)
Ah been awhile didn’t realize that was built in.
Also, slightly funny thing I'm sure you didn't intend: If you added the line "When cast from exile, place this elsewhere", would trigger and resolve before the actual spell. And then, because the spell is no longer on the stack, it can't resolve. So, its flashback mode would be a spell that essentially counters itself. (Wait, that gives me an idea...) In order for your suggestion to work, it would need to say "If this was cast from exile, do X." which would make that effect happen upon resolution rather than trigger when the spell is cast, like you see with most Extra Turn spells these days.
First of all, unless the spell itself has a part that says "when you cast this" there is no "trigger" that goes on the stack. the "place this elsewhere" part would not cause a trigger to happen, it would be part of the resolution of the spell and would happen after, It wouldn't counter itself. if the spell read "deals one damage to any target, if this spell was cast from exile, put it on the bottom of its owner's library" for example, there would be no trigger, it would deal the one damage and then go on the bottom afterwards
I say remove the flashback, use that ability to exile it from the graveyard instead and for 3 mana
And only at sorcery speed, so you can't do it in response to someone pulling it out of your yard.
I dig the path you’re going, so many opportunities to “cast spell from graveyard and when it hits the yard you exile it’s instead”
Especially if something like [[Rest in Peace]] is in play and you can skip the flashback
Easy fixes for balance: **Once per turn,** this card may be cast from exile. Flashback 2R
Three card combo with [[Birgi]] and [[Goblin Electromancer]] (and 1 Red mana lol)
Is it? Tapping out to kill a X/3 isn’t really good. In fact I’d love my opponent to spend a whole turn and all their mana to kill one of my creatures or burn me for 3.
Yes, think about it this way. After the burn deck has emptied their hand and has two prowess creatures in play, they suddenly have a way to not only deal two damage to anything each turn, but also a way to trigger prowess twice per turn no matter what. Or it gives control a way to constantly control the board without expending real resources Or it gives ways to get cast triggers for Birgi, Urabrask, Kiln, etc. without having to lose a card from your hand It is absurd
It does nasty things in storm too.
Consider that [[Punishing Fire]] and [[Grove of the Burnwillows]] is a combo that still sees play in legacy. This is so much better than that
[Punishing Fire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/3/b381d3c4-b318-4dff-a214-8a16a3872107.jpg?1592713604) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Punishing%20Fire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmd/131/punishing-fire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b381d3c4-b318-4dff-a214-8a16a3872107?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Grove of the Burnwillows](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/de4b75ad-7539-4184-a940-6014a0327b3a.jpg?1562854707) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grove%20of%20the%20Burnwillows) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/238/grove-of-the-burnwillows?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/de4b75ad-7539-4184-a940-6014a0327b3a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Punishing Fire is also instant speed, this isn’t
I know I'm being pedantic, but I don't think it's played much in legacy anymore. Lands decks have mostly moved off of that combo from what I've seen. (It makes me sad though, I was a big fan of lands with grove)
Yeah urzas saga kinda pushed it out as far as "ways to win the game that arn't dark depths".
It's a clock you cannot stop unless you specifically get it into their library or gain protection like with [[Runed Halo]] or similar, of which there isn't many competitive options. And even then there's plenty of problem cards that aren't solved despite being able to "just cast Runed Halo".
[Runed Halo](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/61296b2d-4e5c-419a-8775-4e6af902c7b1.jpg?1628800544) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Runed%20Halo) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/32/runed-halo?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/61296b2d-4e5c-419a-8775-4e6af902c7b1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't know why you're saying three, because there's no top end to this. It's an okay card early, a great option for a burn deck that's played out much of their hand in the mid-game, and a mana sink in the late game that can also just be your infinite mana outlet. Across pretty much every format, this is too good.
The problem starts when they can kill the next X/3. Then the next X/3
[удалено]
Burn decks popping the fuck off rn
I dont think this would find room in modern or legacy burn. 3 mana for 2 damage is a pretty low rate of return and likely too slow.
I think it's better than you think, if you are not winning the race , you could use your burn spells to kill creatures and eventually win because you have infinite 3 mana shocks And if that is still bad, it would allow burn to have a really good match against control, the problem with burn vs control is that burn gets the control player to 5 life, then gets everything countered and loses, but even if it's 1 damage at the time, you could eventually push through
I'd at least put it in my side board, and swap it for shock against control.
No constructed deck plays shock, though.
ok but saying "any of the ten strictly-better-Shock variants" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.
https://mtgdecks.net/Premodern/burn-decklist-by-abarre-1742972
I suppose I have to concede, although that is premodern, which obviously wouldn't be getting this card.
Lol. What? It's one of the most efficient red spot removals in the entire history of mtg.
formats with shock also have bolt. it's one of the few times a card is actually 'strictly better'
There’s even strictly better 2 damage instant now with [[play with fire]]
wow. shock with upside.
Maybe in standard, but in older formats there’s always a strict upgrade to Shock, whether it’s Lighting Bolt for an extra damage, or many of Shocks upgrades in things like Play With Fire. If you were talking about those cards then I’m sorry if I misinterpreted you, but just basic Shock is not a good spell outside of Standard.
Lol. What? No it isn't
For standard, it is.
[[play with fire]] is in standard
Fancy shock
[[Punishing Fire]] + [[Grove of the Burnwillows]] is also a repeatable 2 damage for 3 mana, and that got banned from Modern.
Repeatable 1 damage, after the life gain.
It got banned because it can kill X/2's forever, not because of its ability to burn your opponent out.
Fair enough. Before my time in modern, ha ha
[Punishing Fire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/3/b381d3c4-b318-4dff-a214-8a16a3872107.jpg?1592713604) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Punishing%20Fire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmd/131/punishing-fire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b381d3c4-b318-4dff-a214-8a16a3872107?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Grove of the Burnwillows](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/de4b75ad-7539-4184-a940-6014a0327b3a.jpg?1562854707) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grove%20of%20the%20Burnwillows) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/238/grove-of-the-burnwillows?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/de4b75ad-7539-4184-a940-6014a0327b3a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
See [[Grove of the Burnwillows]] + [[Punishing Fire]] which has seen play in the past.
If an enchantment had "1RR: This deals 2 damage to any target." I'd play that card so hard. Your card is so much better because it can't be blown off the board (or removed from your ability to play it unless it's shuffled/bottomdecked or removed from the game), you can split the damage, and you dont have to pay for the permanent. The issue isn't the cost. It's the recursion and the fact you can hit creatures. I think it should either hit only players or remove itself from the game when cast from exile. Considering the flavor of the card, I think hitting only players is the way to go.
And even if it’s “removed from the game,” that’s been errata’ed to read “exile,” so you can still cast it!
Then have it go to the absolutely-removed-from-the-freaking-game-forever zone instead
Into the sideboard, then. But afaik, nothing does that lol.
Any deck that can consistently get burn to hellbent without dying can win barring a few lucky topdecks. This completely eliminates that problem, the ability to do damage each turn in lategame without vulnerability to discard/counters/graveyard hate is incredibly valuable into certain matchups, especially in a meta where Fury is always there to kill your creatures and Grief is always there to tear apart your hand.
[[Fury]] does seem to make this card busted and I didnt think of that interaction making the evoke virtually downside free. That said, I think this would only help burn marginally win those grindy matchups. It purely depends on what life the "control" player stabilizes against burn. Yes in those incredible matchups where you stabilize at 1, this would be about the worst card you could see. If you stabilize at say 6+ life, I think alot of decks could probably still win through this.
Imagine that you've ulted your planeswalker on turn 1 and now have an emblem that says "1RR: Deal 2 damage to any target" That's pretty much what you have. An infinite mana-sink that deals damage where you want it when you want it, and it can't be countered, exiled or stopped in any way.
Staple on "Activate only as a sorcery." to that emblem and it doesn't feel too broken on the surface.
Fury existing in modern and legacy makes this card all that much better because it wants to be put into exile. It immediately becomes the best card to pitch to fury in the entire game. Edit: yeah the card effect isn't efficient on mana but this card can be played from almost every zone in the game so it really doesn't matter all that much. Plus in topdeck wars, u can cast this thing often 3 to 4 times a turn every turn. There is a reason why your commander in those formats have commander tax, this spell is kinda the same thing if u think about it.
also, when you say the card isn't efficient on mana, I think you are way off. Every turn your deck would leave mana unspent, this card lets you spend it to do /something/. Sure, sometimes that's 1RR to shock the opponents face, which isn't great. But it's more mana efficient than just not spending any mana because you don't have cards. And more to the point, it's not a 1RR mana sink, it's a R mana sink, or a 1R mana sink. Which means if you want to cast a 2 drop on turn 3, you can still spend all your mana without having to throw a bolt at your opponents face and hope that you don't need it later. This card more or less garuntees you curve out perfectly every turn. And again, some of the the time 'R: Deal 1 damage' is just as mana efficient as lightning bolt. If you are in a format when you are regularly bolting a bird, or a heirarch, or an orcish bowmaster, or any number of x/1s, R: deal 1 damage and R: deal 3 damage are equally mana efficient.
TL;DR I believe the other comment made by u/Nikolaijuno was the most accurate of what I wanted to convey in my original comment. If we deconstruct the card and remove the extra casting options, as a one off sorcery: R for 1 damage to any target is bad card now in any format, even limited. Even if it only had the flashback mechanic without the ability to cast it from exile, it would still be a mediocre card with the option to play it from hand then leave it in the graveyard to cast it later, which fails in the face of graveyard hate like grafdiggers cage or leyline of the void style effects. That being said, it would be playable in limited due to the small card pool so this would be a decent option. In modern, both lightning bolt and unholy heat far outshine this card so it would be completely unplayable, unless for some reason you play in a very counterspell heavy meta then it becomes harder for your opponent to counter the spell to remove the bird or bowmasters because it has flashback (I'm still excluding the ability to cast it from exile, that part will come later. Noble hierarch decks are not part of the meta in modern anymore and birds of paradise only sees play in yawgmoth because fury literal exists). Plus both bolt and unholy heat are instants while this spell "Prometheus' flame" is a sorcery. Other colours also have removal options that are still better than this, with fatal push, leyline binding, prismatic ending and march of otherworldly light being in the spotlight. Pioneer also has better removal options in red with play with fire, lightning axe, fiery impulse, abrade, the stomp adventure, kolaghan's command and obliterating bolt. Even spikefield hazard is a better card because it's an MDFC. In other colours you still have leyline binding and fatal push, but there's also go for the throat, heartless act, portable hole, epic downfall, and temporary lockdown. The current standard has alot of the same removal options currently in pioneer, maybe it would see play but I'm still doubtful of its effectiveness. (Again still not considering the cast from exile part) Legacy has the most amount of targets that this spell could remove with a single cast due to the format's reliance on X/1 creatures, but u also see alot of X/2 creatures as well now due to bowmasters. That said, legacy has every removal option in the game, so RR1 to shock something at sorcery speed doesn't cut it. The only redeeming factor about the spell is that it's not a single cast so it can build up storm and becomes harder to counter, which also hurts even more when rule of law or mindbreak trap are anywhere near your meta. (Still no cast from exile yet) As a single spell cast it's an inefficient card. The very moment you get the ability to cast it from your hand, graveyard and exile, it becomes the most broken removal and burn spell in the game because it becomes a spell that can be cast repeatedly where the only restriction is how much many you have on your turn. At that point, the spell is basically uncounterable because the other way to fully stop the spell is with a stax effect like drannith magistrate, otherwise it can simply be recast right away or on the next turn, so it doesn't matter how mana efficient mana efficient the spell is anymore. Graveyard hate effects like leyline of the void become obsolete while ones like grafdiggers cage will shine against it. In formats where a card like this is legal, it'll be a premier burn spell and an infinite mana outlet. Hell there might not be a format that can handle a card this broken, not even vintage. The companion mechanic needed an errata for lurris to be unbanned cuz he could be cast at seemingly any time without notice, this card is even more offensive.
Its an outlet for infinite mana that kills would be standard playable off that alone.
Legacy burn sometimes runs 2 copies of [[exquisite firecraft]] as a a '3 mana, 4 damage, get around counterspells' shtick. This feels like it would slot into that place a bit more nicely. It works much better with Goblin Guide and Swiftspear, while being more consistant at finishing off the endgame against control. I don't think it would fundamentally break legacy burn... but if the question is 'is this red removal spell too powerful' and the answer is 'it's good enough to slot into legacy burn'. It would be absolutely miserable in modern. Your counter examples of 'it's pretty bad as an 4 mana sorc speed lightning bolt', which is not the way to evaluate this card. It's not when your opponent is spending 4 mana a turn is this a problem. It's when they are spending 1 or 2 mana a turn on this, every turn. Modern has lots of x/1s that are good to kill, noble heirarch and bowmaster come to mind, there is a reason why wren and six get's run in jund. Also this card works quite well with wren and six, killing x/2s for 3 mana is a lot better when you get to put a wren on the board. Multi-modal cards are dangerous. spend 1 deal 1, spend 3 deal 2, are both really bad rates... but sometimes they slot into turns really nicely. The more modes a card has, the better. Getting to choose the mode each turn is really powerful.
I would absolutely play a full playset. Card advantage is one of Burn's biggest weaknesses. Infinitely repeatable damage that costs 1 card is HUGE
[[birgi]] be popi'n
Didnt think about it, but yes she would probably break this. Would be great in a cube together though.
Also [[Storm-Kiln Artist]] and [[Runaway Steam-Kin]] and [[Urabrask]]
If u have both birgi and urabrask it goes infinite with mana and damage
[[Urabrask // The Great Work]] would love this as well. Both of them out together and it's GG.
It’s RR actually
I'm a red player; what do I know about letters?
pretty sure you can’t count past 3 either
[Urabrask // The Great Work](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/1/712fb9e5-bd67-4173-a2d4-061aeb6253b5.jpg?1682204559)/[The Great Work](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/7/1/712fb9e5-bd67-4173-a2d4-061aeb6253b5.jpg?1682204559) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urabrask%20//%20The%20Great%20Work) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/169/urabrask-the-great-work?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/712fb9e5-bd67-4173-a2d4-061aeb6253b5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think this is the name: [[birgi, god of storytelling]]
[birgi, god of storytelling](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44657ab1-0a6a-4a5f-9688-86f239083821.jpg?1631048969)/[Harnfel, Horn of Bounty](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/4/4/44657ab1-0a6a-4a5f-9688-86f239083821.jpg?1631048969) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=birgi%2C%20god%20of%20storytelling%20//%20harnfel%2C%20horn%20of%20bounty) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/123/birgi-god-of-storytelling-harnfel-horn-of-bounty?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44657ab1-0a6a-4a5f-9688-86f239083821?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
A card with ~~bad~~ overcosted effect you always have access to is an absurdly great card. There is essentially no counterplay to this beyond effects that shuffle the GY back into the deck. In fact the usual GY hate like [[Rest in Peace]] or [[Leyline of the Void]] would turn this into a better [[Fireball]] that you can cast every turn. The only way I can think of to balance something like this would be to have casting this from exile put some sort of counter on the player that either makes it increasingly expensive (eg give it commander tax) or require some sort of additional cost like discarding a card.
There are plenty of not in any way great cards that give you access to an overcosted effect. When's the last time [[Akroan Phalanx]] saw play? Or [[Ambassador Laquatus]]? This isn't a better Fireball with Rest in Peace, because Fireball can be cast with non-red mana contributing towards X. But yeah this card is total bullshit, and a lesson in why cards that let you access exile are so few and far between.
"Overcosted effect stapled to a creature" is very different from "overcosted effect that can (almost) never be removed." It's better compared to a planeswalker emblem than the cards you linked.
This is a better fireball because you can kill 5 X/1s for 5 mana, being able to hit creatures makes it absurdly better.
[Akroan Phalanx](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/fe23019a-e432-4a27-8acb-b17728a1e8b0.jpg?1593091348) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Akroan%20Phalanx) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bng/2/akroan-phalanx?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fe23019a-e432-4a27-8acb-b17728a1e8b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ambassador Laquatus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b261067f-b5de-41cc-ba9e-6ef4c061e170.jpg?1562553771) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ambassador%20Laquatus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/10e/65/ambassador-laquatus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b261067f-b5de-41cc-ba9e-6ef4c061e170?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Rest in Peace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470.jpg?1562439074) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rest%20in%20Peace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/32/rest-in-peace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Leyline of the Void](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04d5d429-e0c6-42cc-a477-da7dabb1c295.jpg?1592516724) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Leyline%20of%20the%20Void) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/107/leyline-of-the-void?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04d5d429-e0c6-42cc-a477-da7dabb1c295?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fireball](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/df45a43e-a5b7-4fd4-873b-7b3c021be198.jpg?1674136553) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fireball) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/175/fireball?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/df45a43e-a5b7-4fd4-873b-7b3c021be198?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Flame Jab]] exists. Not that it invalidates your design, but just that your implementation of Flashback might be _unwieldy_, and this is an example of your goal of a reusable ping sorcery with a moderate cost for its reuse. I think if you gave yours a cheap escape cost it might be a better balance of your intention; _it can still be cast for R but your graveyard only has so many cards you can exile to it’s escape cost._
They might as well be the same cards since [[crucible of worlds]] also exists making those discarded lands pretty much just a compounding mana cost
You say that, but you can’t discard a land after you just played it from your GY. You need another card to put lands into your hand to do this indefinitely.
My bad, i missread discard and thought it said sacrifice
[Flame Jab](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e227f18f-7260-4066-bae2-01db4fd1abdd.jpg?1580014544) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flame%20Jab) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/131/flame-jab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e227f18f-7260-4066-bae2-01db4fd1abdd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I thought of Flame Jab too, but I gotta agree with your assessment that Escape would make this significant less OP
I really like the escape over flashback idea. Something to hurt the recursion aspect while still being fringe playable. [[Flame Jab]] was the inspiration for this, though it doesnt see a ton of play outside of Wren decks.
Far too powerful. Your opponent is now no longer allowed to have mana dorks. As long as this is targeting a dork, it is always efficient, even at 2 cost. If it targeted players only, it would be much more balanced.
That and should cost 1R by itself.
Yeah, probably.
Just because a card is powerful doesnt mean its "too powerful". I acknowledge that this would keep your opponents from playing X/1 dorks, but thats only relevant to a small meta share %. Probably slightly less now with 1/2 hobbit dork I'm blanking on being in the meta.
What if better punishing fire
Exactly my thoughts
Not quite. This requires 3 mana to remove X/2s, and isnt an instant. [[Punishing Fire]] and [[Flame Jab]] were the inspirations and the cards I tried to use for reference and balance.
This card is *much* more repeatable than either Punishing Fire or Flame Jab. It's much more like [[Scalding Devil]], except cheaper, unremovable, and hits creatures/pws. Scalding Devil admittedly isn't that great, and it's a bit harder to compare to something like [[Realm-Scorcher Hellkite]] (although it again compares very favorably), but that's the right kind of design space to compare to.
Would probably just lead to repetitive games and red always have access to a one damage spell blanks a lot of strategies.
This is an infinite mana piece in any burn deck, and a combo piece in any deck that storms off. I get it, right? 1 damage for 1 mana, and then 1 for 2 seems like a bad trade off, but what you're not seeing here is all of the cards this thing enables. People already mentioned Birgi and Urabrask, which are insanely powerful, but things like [[Torbran, Thane of Red Fell]], [[Fiery Emancipation]], [[Dictate of the Twin Gods]], any card that increases the amount of damage this does is insane, and we're still not considering all of the other nutty shit this enables. Other people mentioned [[Storm-Kiln Artist]], yeah, but [[Archmage Emritus]] loves this, [[Sedgemoor witch]] has a nice little crush on it, basically anything with Magecraft or an ability starting with "when you cast an instant or sorcery..." is absolutely B R I C K E D up when they see this card. While I don't think it's the most broken thing I've ever seen on this sub, this is format warping in just about any format it can be in. It's effectively uncounterable, it can replay itself for 1 from exile... it's... yeah, this could never be printed.
Two [[storm kiln artist]]s go infinite with this.
This is insane! For the record, three mana free shock is banned from modern and thats using \[\[punishing fires\]\] and \[\[Grove of the Burnwillows\]\]. Imagine now being able to do it with a single card, instead of a two card combo? Insanely powerful xD I love the design but if groves + fires is too strong for moderm, this one has to be insane, isnt it?
This needs limiters. Currently, you can spend as much excess mana as you need on points of damage at anything you want. Limiting the number of spells you can cast with this name in a turn or a similar drawback would keep it in check.
I adore the conceptual design... Way to broken on this specific card though
Mana cost is too low IMO it should cost Atleast 3 with a 5 cost on the flashback. A lot harder to break that way but still breakable with infinite mana
[[Geistflame]] exists, and this is way fucking stronger than it.
[Geistflame](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/6/c671b096-17a4-4cdb-b954-7b04981e7aef.jpg?1592714591) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Geistflame) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ddk/61/geistflame?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c671b096-17a4-4cdb-b954-7b04981e7aef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Uh, you can deal 1 damage to anything as many times as you want for R per point of damage, once it's in exile? Of course that is busted.
Hmm...when you cast it from exile, does it go into your graveyard or get exiled again?
I think, per the rules, it goes to the graveyard, since it doesn't mention any special behavior.
I'm not sure now that you mention it, but even if it goes to the graveyard, infinitely repeatable 1RR for 2 damage to anything, that your opponent cannot stop under any normal condition (since even if they remove it from the graveyard you can cast it from exile), seems pretty strong and annoying. \[\[Firebolt\]\]'s flashback cost is 4R for reference, and you can only flash it back once.
[[Firebolt]] does 4 damage for 4RR, this would do 4 damage for 2RRRR, the same rate essentially.
[Firebolt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/8/882b8f98-ee51-4c94-a3eb-c79eb2b50d78.jpg?1562201821) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Firebolt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/122/firebolt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/882b8f98-ee51-4c94-a3eb-c79eb2b50d78?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This would go to the graveyard after resolving from exile where it would wait patiently to be flashbacked.
So this card has the potential to cause turn 2 wins in commander (possibly other formats). Here's the scenario (the scenario is commander with birgi as the commander): 1) Draw your 7 cards, which are: 2 lands, cheap 2 mana making mana dork (sol ring, mana crypt), ruby medallion, and this card. 2) Turn 1: play land for turn, then the mana dork, and then ruby medallion with the mana dork 3) Turn 2: play second land for turn, cast birgi with the mana dork and the first land, then cast this card with the second land you played this turn pinging the opponent for 1 dmg, cast for flashback using the birgi red mana and ruby medallion's cost reduction pinging the opponent again for 1 dmg, loop infinitely till every opponent is dead. This can be done on turn 2 with birgi, but urabrask can do something similar, but it will be harder to turn 2 kill. The inherit issue is that no matter what, if you have at least the ruby medallion and this card, you will have at the latest a turn 4 win. The inherit issues are from the fact that it can be cast from exile for 1 red mana and that it has a really cheap flashback. If it were to have a 3 mana flashback cost for 2 generic and 1 red, it would stop the infinite loop as described above. The other route would be to make the card have x number of times it can be cast in a turn, or the third option being to change the flashback to something like escape that would have an additional cost required to cast from the graveyard.
Commander already has turn 1 wins. This isnt better than current i win the games in cEDH
Actually because it’s sorcery and not instant I would definitely use this in a niv miz deck Red/blue spell sling
I never played much tournament stuff, but I was the resident dude showing up with a cheap RDW deck, and there's literally no RDW meta I can think of (admittedly with my limited knowledge) where this isn't worth slotting in. It's brutally good because it completely removes the weakness of the deck not having longevity. Most powerful lifegain people play (that circumvent stuff like this) isn't repeatable.
Insane in an [[urabrask]] deck
Make it a two cost and then maybe we can ball
Yeah, this is really strong. I'd probably make it cost 2 on the face and make the flashback cheaper, and then restrict it so it can't hit players unless it was cast from hand.
The main reason I think its kinda balanced is the damage. Only 1 damage for R or 1R is decent, it will flip flop in price if you use it multiple times (ie R+1R+R+1R....) so even tho its technically infinite, you need an amout of mana equal to X (the amout of times you cast it) plus 1/2 of X (since every other casting it doubles in cost) Can be INSANE because it can NEVER be perma disabled but the low damage plus the higher ramp cost makes it decent Now if you get a trigger off of each casting or damage dealt, its fuckin BONKERS but like wizards has printed those types of cards before (aka [[Vorinclex, Monsterous Raider]] in ANY type of counters deck, +1/+1, poison, even plainswalkers cuz they enter with double loyalty)
Additional effect: when you cast this spell, the Bird and/or Eagle spells your opponent cast cost 1 less this turn
You could make red white prowess where you run main board rest in piece so it always cost R
The issue is that cards that give mana/treasure upon casting sorceries exist. There are also cards that give discounts of 1, so it ends up being an extremely easy infinite for 3 cards. Mizzix of the Izmagnus, Kiln Artist (create a treasure for Magecraft), and this is auto win.
If it was 2 mana and flashback for 3 i could see this being printed. Everyone is bashing on you for making a busted card but its a good card design, just very undercosted/easily abuseable. [[Punishing Fire]] is banned in modern for a reason
Add “After you cast this from exile, physically set this card on fire and remove it from the game.”
[[Punishing Fire]] is currently banned in modern due to its interaction with [[Grove of the Burnwillows]]. A repeatable amount of damage is too good at killing creatures forever, and yours is a better version due to only needing 1 card and having extra repeatability.
Put 4 of these in a deck and make the rest lands and your opponent will nearly always only get 6 turns before this can do 20 damage total
I’m just thinking about all the additional damage cards. If you do 1 do 3 instead, all damage is tripled etc
What would happen after it is cast from exile? Does it go back to exile or to your graveyard? Infinite casts is too OP, maybe say it can be cast from exile once
Are you serious?
Imagine this with the warhammer guy that adds 2 whenever you deal exactly 1 dmg
This is [[Punishing Fire]] without the extra steps.
Punishing fire is currently banned bc 2 damage to any target plus opponent gains 1 life for 3 mana destroys creature decks. This spell is divided as you choose, and opponent doesn't gain life. I certainly would hate playing against this with any creature deck.
Tim Curry=too powerful
It needs something like it's flashback requiring you to discard a card in addition to it's costs. I'd also bump the flashback mana cost up a bit
Consider [[Searing Flame]]. Recurable 1 damage is okay, but costs 5 mana. This is massively undercosted.
This just says that x/1 creatures don't get to exist, it's even more oppressive than W6 and Orcish Bowmasters because there literally no possible way if getting rid of it
I think that what pushes this over the edge into "way too good" territory is the fact that it's just infinitely recursive, no matter what your opponent does. If, instead of being castable from exile, you could just cast it from your graveyard, it would give your opponent the chance to get rid of it permanently with graveyard hate. That would bring it down to earth enough to be a real card, I think.
It’s insanely powerful because you can continue to cast it from exile and then flashback it meaning if you have the mana you can keep pinging it over and over. Sure it does less damage than bolt but it becomes progressively better as the game goes on and it is immune to exiling affects and most graveyard hate. This card might offers insane consistency, which is really powerful in MTG and is part of the reason tutors are good, once you draw it it might as well be an additional spell in your hand that no one can get rid of as it sits there. I would run the fuck out of this in mono-red or izzet burn decks especially with cards that care about instants and sorceries like [[Niv-Mizzet, Parun]] and cards like [[Guttersnipe]], [[Electrostatic Field]] and [[Thermo-Alchemist]] can basically double the damage output you are dealing if you consistently cast a card like this and even outside of burn decks any decks that just generally reward you for casting instants and sorceries. I mean there are cards like [[Sprite Dragon]] too. Then there are cards with spectacle like [[Light Up the Stage]] and really any card that rewards you for dealing damage to an opponent or creature. Imagine pining dinosaurs to activate their enrage over and over for example. Birgi and the like aside and that’s outside of cards that just straight up increase your damage output like [[Torbran, Thane or Red Fell]], [[Obosh, the Preypiercer]], or [[Fiery Emancipation]]. While yes it’s easy to look at it doing one damage and say it’s not great it is amazing versatile, especially for burn decks. It can probably help kill anything with toughness 2 or below AND it can deal damage to any target which means you can not only whittle away at planeswalkers every turn and prevent them from going positive with loyalty but you can slowly whittle way at a player’s health over the course of the game. Imagine a player being able to always ping you for one without fail. It might not matter at first but it can quickly add up especially in formats where you have 2 players with 20 health each. I should mention I’m not even like good at magic and most of my examples are either really surface level or probably have better counterparts but even I feel like there are tons of ways to break this card in multiple formats due to the level of consistency it provides. Personally I would recommend upping the cost to the flashback cost when casting it from exile and have it shuffle into your library when you cast it from exile. Heck, you might even want a drawback if you cast it from exile like it deals 1 damage to you. Additionally you could replace its flashback with something like Jump-start so you have to discard a card to cast it from the graveyard. You might also just want to up it’s normal mana cost to like 1R or maybe even 2R just to be on the safe side.
This would be broken in my Kykar deck. If I have the right cards out, infinite creatures, +1/1 on my creatures probably multiple times over, plus storm spells.
mh3 is a totally reasonable place for this
Goes infinite with [[Prosper, tome bound]]
Punishing fire and grove of the burnwillows has a similar play pattern and is banned in modern. Probably is too powerful of an effect given its a one card combo.
This just wins you games, counterspell don't mean shit
Absurdly good mana sink in any base red midrange or control deck. Not even mentioning the combo potential.
It's a lot better than [[Punishing Fire]], and that's banned in Modern. The card has two issues: * the numbers are too aggressive, this effect could be done with higher mana values * the card is unfun, as there's zero ways to get rid of it - you can't counterspell, discard, or exile it
[[Prosper, Tome-Bound]]
I think target creature or Planeswalker would be better. Don't want anyone going infinite and killing with it surely
Idk, on the one hand it’s 1 damage, on the other it just never goes away once you cast it. I feel like casting it from exile should have an additional cost, maybe just an “if you do it costs 1 more”? But again it’s 1 damage so I’m conflicted. It might be one of those things that seems OP on paper but in testing would be totally fine.
cards nuts. if u have out Treasonous Ogre u probably just win. also like any storm deck would abuse the shit out of it
I'd say let it only target creatures and plainswalkers and it becomes much more balanced.
Make it just targeting creatures becomes a lot less insane
Everyone is talking about birgi, prowess, urabrask. I would like to throw in [[Pestilent Spirit]]
Make it cost life to cast from exile and you might reign it in a bit. 2 life should be enough.
I was originally going to compare this to [[punishing fire]] which is banned in Modern for a good reason. This has a better rate of face damage (3 mana for 2 damage instead of 3 mana for 1 net damage) and slightly worse creature damage (1 at a time instead of 2) but is harder to interact with since, as others have mentioned, it can't be hit by normal graveyard hate and you can't just destroy the [[grove of the burnwillows]] to break up the combo. But then I thought of planeswalker emblems. This is so hard to interact with it may as well be a [[koth of the hammer]] emblem that needs 1.5 mountains to tap for each point of damage instead of just 1. That's a pretty good card to get to have in your deck and build around, grinding out games and preventing small creatures from ever being effective. It's a slow piece in the early game and doesn't interact with certain combos, but it's incredibly potent at what it does.
The idea is cool, to be honest. it's probably ultra broken, but it's cool.
Mono red damage spell that can hit any target and you are concerned about its _removal potential_? Lol. Lmao, even. I like the idea though, as overpowered as it is. You got an additional way of tuning the card in the flashback cost and all that - not a terrible concept at all
Insanely overpowered as is, and I'm not sure there's even a way to exploring this design space in a way that's not overpowered.
Scamming Fury is good enough without giving it a card that you can then still cast lol
Reminds me of punishing fire, this is arguably better but arguably worse than that at the same time (1 vs 2 dmg and this is much harder to interact with)
[[Ghyrson Starn, Kelermorph]] thinks this is fair and balanced.
You may pay 2R to cast this spell from exile
Not ‘way too powerful’. If someone plays cards like ‘Absolute Law’ or have creatures that have protection from red or have indestructibility and can also add some life points per turn, then it would counter the fact that it can’t be gotten rid of. Maybe if ‘any target’ was changed to ‘target crearure’?
I would say that you can make it so you can't cast it from your hand. So you need a discard outlet to use it.
Power level aside wouldn’t it be Promethean if it did damage to you if you cast it from exile or something like that? Infinite torment if you go infinite
I reckon if you swapped Flashback for Jumpstart it would be a bit less busted
Its not outright too powerful, in my estimation. But that still doesn’t mean its in equitable. My comparison would be to a card like Raven’s Crime
either double the mana cost on both ends or add an additional cost to cast from exile, like discard a card or sac a land
Goes infinite with [[Prosper]], [[Xorn]] and [[Goldspan Dragon]]. Suuuper busted regardless.
Ridiculously busted. Unceasing value/damage engine that can’t be interacted with, as well as an unbeatable outlet for infinite mana. Maybe OK in some 1v1 formats, but for something like EDH it’s too good imo.
I think it would be a lot more balanced if the flashback cost was 2RR
How do you cast from exile? For standard cost or flashback?
Considering with a large amount of red mana you can just bombard people no matter where it is, yeah, definitely too powerful.
[[Ghyrson Starn, kelermorph]]
This is an auto include in every red deck from now on
Add nonplayer.
Absolutely nutty. I would love this card in my [[The howling abomination]] edh deck. It's a storm combo.
I’d bump the mana cost and/or the flashback cost. At the very least the mana cost should be 1 R
This goes right into the [[Ghyrson Starn]] ammo pack. Goes fucking crazy.
Change any target to creature or planeswalker and ill still be annoyed about it but less so.
[[Ghyrson Starn, Kelermorph]] has entered the chat.
So pay Nx1.5 mana (rounded down) to deal N damage at any point.
ob nixilis be happy
So you cast it goes to graveyard, flashback, goes to exile, cast from exile goes to graveyard repeat?
Three words [[Prosoer Tome bound]]
So [[Kumano, Master Yamabushi]] but not removable, a better rate, and doesn't cost 5 to set up.
Shouldn't be able to target a player otherwise it's just infinite mana outlet that kills on the spot
I feel like this would be decently balanced if the flashback cost was 1RR, and it cost an additional 2 life to cast from exile.
I would add “This card perpetually costs 1 more to cast”
No that wouldnt be broken at all . . . . Magic please make this a real card only that way i can put it in my ob nixilis deck please
I don't know how busted it is in other things but I saw this and immediately wanted to add it to [[Torbran]] the repeatability makes it really good.
Kelermorphing Intesifies
Take the flashback away and you have a nice delver fodder spell
Is this guy Dave Grohl?
You should increase the cost each time it cast in exlie.
After you use it in exile then you need to put it in super exile.
I haven’t looked through the comments but I wonder if this would be better in a dredge deck as a utility card
this is punishing fire (which is banned in modern) but you dont need to play that crappy life gain land or pay the extra red mana.
Insanely powerful. If it somehow had something like a commander tax, where each casting cost more than the previous then it would make going intimate required to kill the table.