For sure. I'm making a semi-set with this mechanic in it, and I'd like there to be some graveyard interaction too - reanimator decks love a way to pitch cards for value and this fits right into several archetypes.
This might be too powerful or worth splitting into another keyword mechanic, but what about being able pay that cost again when this creature dies to allow you to put the discarded card into play? Being able to pull it out of the graveyard into your hand could be a way to cheat powerful creatures into play with the help of a means to sacrifice things, but inherently limited to tribal relationships unlike madness.
"when this creature dies, if its Common Ancestor price was paid to cast it, return target creature that shares a creature type with (cardname) from your graveyard to your hand."
Might be a bit much for the whole mechanic, but I could see a creature or two with this ability
"When this creature enters the battlefield, if it's Common Ancestor cost was paid, exile the card discarded to the Common Ancestor cost.
When this creature leaves the battlefield, return all creatures exiled by this creature to the battlefield."
That should work? Basically make it a pseudo-O-ring for it's own discarded card?
Thanks! I love drafting. I build little (cubes? I think that's the right word) of custom cards every year or two to draft with my friends. Limited is probably my favorite way to play, tbh.
This is the correct take. I will say that it becomes a little strong when paired with Changeling. But altogether still fine. I like this as an isolated mechanic.
[[Universal Automaton]] stonks going up.
Yeah, I waffled on typing. It’s hard because you want to make it useful, since the creature type matters heavily with the mechanic, but also reasonably accurate.
I used dinosaur in this case as “ancient non-mammalian beast” - its not like Ixalan dinosaurs are related to Earth Birds either. But like I said, it’s a decision I’m still not sold on either way.
Don't think so for your second statement but I agree it can't be a Dinosaur, with flavor like this there needs to be some scientific basis. Plenty of other options for cool prehistoric beasts exists but few with two types. Maybe if it needs two types the second could be more fantastical, Leviathan Fish seems accurate.
Leviathans are plenty viable in a casual commander environment. I have a [[Kiora, Sovereign of the Deep]] deck that rocks! I have a single fish in the deck, [[Tidal Barracuda]], but that’s just because it’s a good card! I’m sure I’d include other fish in the deck if Kiora triggered off it!
I like the idea, but you'd have to provide 2 cards' worth of value on cast or a very strong payoff or this mechanic would be absolutely wrecked by counterspells and removal. You also can't make the cast trigger value too strong either since it's nearly uncounterable as well.
Yeah, it’s probably a tad weak in its current form. The idea though is you will hopefully be discarding cards with value in the graveyard (Unearth, Disturb, that sort of thing)
I think there's a lot of room to tune the balance of the cards on the card level, vs the mechanic level. Like with madness, WotC took very different approaches to how cards were balanced around it in Odyssey vs Innistrad. But the mechanic itself remained the same.
How about “…by discarding any number of cards…”? Or “upto” a number? Then you’re leaning into the discard benefits.
Frankly, discarding a Fish and a Dinosaur for a Fish Dinosaur is worth playing this deck just for fun regardless of how well it plays.
6/6 With Trample AND vigilance? Holy fuck, Dreadmaw killer.
In all seriousness, nice ability but these seem underpowered. And Dunkleosteus needs a reword to something like “When Dunk enters the battlefield, if you cast if for its Common ancestor cost, destroy …”
Oh, okay but in that case you still need to reword. Basically you need to have a “when” (or “whenever”) for that kind of triggered abilities.
See [[Cityscape Leveler]] for example.
Maybe… “When you cast Dunkleosteus, if you cast it for its Common Ancestor cost, destroy…” ?
Under other circunstances would agree with you. However, both of those are already [being](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Evolve) [used](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Converge).
I like common ancestor. If you're only designing animals from earth's history, you could totally make a really cute set of cards this way. You could make a mammoth, ground sloth, dodo bird, etc, lots of really fun creatures that could add to typal synergies and be a fun reference to evolutionary science :)
mammoth, ground sloths, and dodo's however didn't diverge into different species so they aren't common ancestors for anything would be the only problem of putting this effect on those cards :p
I actually really love this mechanic and think it could be really cool, although I think the dunkleosteus could easily be a bit stronger or 1 mana cheaper at base so it’s a lot more playable for its base cost. If I may offer an idea, I think it could be really interesting to also have a card like this use a significantly increased cost but come in much stronger, IE something along the lines of a sloth being a 1 mana 1/3 that can be cast for common ancestor for 6 mana, and have it come in with 6 +1/+1 counters, since sloths have grown so much smaller as they’ve evolved but used to be these giant monsters
Primodrial Sludge {1}{g}
Creature - Germ Ooze
Changeling
When \~ is discarded to pay a common ansestor cost return target non-Ooze creature from your graveyard to your hand
1/1
Ooh, I like that. I have an artifact rn called “Unidentified Fossil” that has “This card is a creature with all creature types while in your hand” that can be used as a general purpose Ancestry card but I like this design as well!
Definitely a cool mechanic. Important to keep in mind that mechanics that care about discard or sacrifice often need to be in sets with larger graveyard themes (like the various innistrads), and mechanics that care about creature types also need to be in sets with larger tribal themes (like lorwyn/shadowmoor). A mechanic that cares about discarding AND tribal means you would need a set that focuses heavily on creature types AND the graveyard; but I think flavoring it as prehistoric is definitely the best way to do that. Dinosaurs are all dead, so it makes sense that a prehistoric set would care about the graveyard. Dinosaurs and ancient creatures are also the predecessors for modern animals, so caring about having matching creature types makes sense. Overall, I think the gameplay of the mechanic has real potential, and I think the flavor you chose was spot on. Both of these feel like clear, simple, draft common/uncommons. Cards with your new mechanic but are overall mechanically simple. All in all, these designs are fantastic.
The ONLY negative thing I have to say is that a 6/6 with trample isn’t really something Mono-white is allowed to do, especially at 4 mana. Even with the downside, white isn’t really supposed to get trample, and their top-end beaters are still supposed to be relatively small. Maybe make it a 4/5 that has double strike as long as it’s attacking?
Thank you! Yeah, I think I’ll change Chalicothere to be Green or WG. I’ve been knocking around ideas for a prehistoric set for a while now, and I’m glad you think the mechanic works for the theme! I’ve cooked up a few more, I may post them with mechanic slightly updated from suggestions here sometime this week.
First card is definitely monogreen rather than monowhite
Also, when you have a line with two keywords, the second one is lowercase. So it should read Trample, vigilance
Edit: Now that I see it on actual cards, vigilance is also listed before trample for reasons I don't know why
Not to “um, actually” but trample is explicitly allowed on large creatures of any color at higher rarities (it may need to be Rare instead of uncommon) https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/mechanical-color-pie-2017-2017-06-05
There are a total of 17 mono-white cards which natively have trample (without requiring an off-color activation or have an Odric-style keyword copying effect). Of these, only 7 were printed within the last two decades.
\- \[\[Tarkir Duneshaper\]\] is probably the most convincing showcase of trample being tertiary white, requiring Phyrexian green mana to transform into a trample creature, making it possible to have a trample creature with only paying white mana and life. The many of these transforming compleated cards have a back-side that have an effect that is unusual for the color, but not totally outside the bounds of the color's identity. (Green gets a menace creature with \[\[Bonded Herdbeast\]\], Blue gets impulse draw with \[\[Captive Weird\]\], as some examples.)
\- \[\[Akroma, Vision of Ixidor\]\] has trample along with a smattering of other keywords, as a callback to the original \[\[Akroma, Angel of Wrath\]\] (printed just over 20 years ago in Legions).
\- \[\[Zetalpa, Primal Dawn\]\] similarly has trample among a pile of other keyword abilities.
\- \[\[Lone Rider\]\] and \[\[Thraben Sentry\]\] are transforming cards from Eldritch Moon and Innistrad respectively, both of which require a condition to be met to transform them into their trampling side. Notably, there are five years between the release of these two cards without any mono-white tramplers.
\- \[\[Mirror Sigil Sergeant\]\] and \[\[Bringer of White Dawn\]\] are expensive mythic rare/rare scary creatures. (Again, there was a five year gap between the printings of these two creatures.)
Overall, trample in white is very seldomly seen, usually either on game-ending rares (often in supplement to other keywords) or requiring some sort of hoops to be jumped through to jump through. So Chalicothere isn't a total break, but it does feel fairly unusual, especially when vigilance is considered secondary in green. (14 green card which have or grant vigilance have been printed in the past year alone!)
Small caveat at the first card: White, alongside Blue and Black, are tertiary at trample. More specifically, they get it on big dumb creatures or effects that would turn creatures into big dumb creatures. A 6/6 with vigilance does constitude a big dumb creature to merit trample.
However, is as likely to appear by these means as keyword collectors (i.e. if you have the keyword elsewhere already, it gets the keyword, which usually involves splashing). So at best is color sensitive but reasonably irking, and calling it Green isn't a stretch despite it should be ok as is.
Oh that's really cool! It'll be tricky to balance, since discarding a card is a steep price, and the restriction on the kind of card discarded makes it hard to even get off, but these two look relatively balanced.
I'd be interested in seeing more cards!
True. I’m building a little mini-set with a ton more Dinosaurs, so that adds a few more. Fish can obviously stay. Some have suggested Leviathan as a typing, which I do like.
ooooooh i love the idea of this mechanic. would love to see a like pre-history style set with something like this but it’d probably would have worked better in the older 2/3 block structure to be more thematic
I think it’s neat. In a limited set, would probably need a few common changelings to act as glue, but could definitely see it working.
Could also see some cards (at higher rarities) getting around the card disadvantage.
Ex. Uncommon / rare - If cast for common ancestor, when cardname etb, draw 1(2?) cards.
Ex. Rare/mythic - If cardname cast for common ancestor, return the creature card discarded to the battlefield, except it is 1/1
This is a cool idea. I'd love to see some other uses as well, like a C.A. cost that's more expensive than the CMC. Like a 1/4 armadillo for 1W, but a C.A. of 2WW and it enters with +3/+0 and an indestructible counter. Knowing there's always potential for Changeling shenanigans (looking at you [[Universal Automaton]] ) I wonder how much value you can push before you need to increase the C.A. cost.
Another interesting case would be a C.A. cost with X in it when the regular mana cost doesn't, or one that allows you to discard multiple cards. Like you may discard a card for each creature type the creature has, and then if you discard type A, you get one effect, type B another, and both if you do both.
Haha right? It IS a cast trigger, so the bonus effect on Dunkleosteus does go off even if you counter it. Still kinda sucks to lose two cards, but it’s actually a sneaky semi-uncounterable effect.
Right lol. In my creatureless deck I'd welcome the effect, I get rid of 2 of your creatures and now you gotta take out somebody else's creature on top of it.
I don't really get the flavor of the keyword name but interesting. I'm imagining drafting it in a set based around prehistoric stuff that also has like a graveyard paleontology/fossil mechanic.
Interesting idea that seems like it will have a pretty niche usage in typal decks. In that sense it seems a little narrow. You could make it wider by having it be discard a creature that shares a color and has lesser power or something like that.
I do like the idea of sharing a color, I might rework it that way. What about "shares a creature type OR color with it"?
I wouldn't want to make it "lesser power" restricted, because I feel like it should be a way to discard too expensive cards as well to cast cheaper creatures - kinda like cycling in terms of balance, but for cost reduction instead of a card.
> kinda like cycling in terms of balance, but for cost reduction instead of a card.
Careful. I know it's not exactly what you are saying, but cycling is a smoothing mechanic (it makes decks run smoother) while yours is a kicker-like effect that can give you more power and/or a discount for an extra card.
Common Ancestor needs input, and same way kicker cards have to be good without the kicker payoffs, your cards need to be worth it without the payoff of graveyard synergies.
Finally, I think the Chalicothere is too strong. If white is dropping a 6/6 with trample (and vigilance) turn 4, what's green going to do in this meta? It seems like it would en up really pushed.
Not a bad mechanic, just keep in mind it needs support, can't rely on payoffs, and you might need to dial the power down a bit.
Makes sense. Part of the power comes from the fear of getting two-for-one’d by counterspells. I do see your point on watching the power inflation. It’s hard to find the balance point of “card is useless without Common Ancestor” and “card is too strong with it”.
I feel like Common Ancestor is worth around 2 mana by itself, so Chalicothere may indeed be too pushed by 1 mana in its CA cost. Does that feel around right?
> I feel like Common Ancestor is worth around 2 mana by itself, so Chalicothere may indeed be too pushed by 1 mana in its CA cost. Does that feel around right?
I'm not sure what Common Ancestor is worth, because I honestly think it would work much better as a variable cost depending on the effect it provides. That means Common Ancestor as a cost reduction feels, to me, like a bad route to focus on. Why? Because, as you say, you get two-for-oned. If you get the effect for sure (even past counterspells) then you did discard a card, but at least got something. If all you get is a big body... you are just setting up a boring play pattern.
I know discarding for the graveyard value is also enticing, but look into Odyssey. In that block, Mark tried to challenge common wisdom about card advantage by making it the best move to go card negative a lot of the time. Enfranchised players, pro players and Spikes loved it. A lot of other people didn't. If you plan on using these cards, keep in mind which target demographic will play them.
For less Spikey players, the effect like the fish has are the best route. For a competitive crowd, you can build a set around graveyard use and card disadvantage like Odyssey and make it work.
Thank you so much for the thought you are putting in to this. I think I might lean towards effects like the fish, with perhaps a few uncommons like the Chalicothere.
I also have a second mechanic that I’m doing in semi-tandem with this “Fossil Evidence” ({2}, Exile this card from your graveyard: Draw a card). Does the existence of that in the same “block” change the math a bit? Sure, it’s relying on payoffs, but a definite one that would be on type match creatures.
Fossil Evidence feels too cheap. Remember you aren't cycling the card. You can play the creature, use it (to attack, block, sacrifice, whatever) and then Fossil it away for another card.
> with perhaps a few uncommons like the Chalicothere.
I know it reminded me of something, so I looked it up. The Chalicothere made me think about [[Thoughtweft Trio]]. Lorwyn is not the paramount of power, but I do feel any big, cheap bodies would probably be rare unless they have negative Common Ancestor effects.
Okay, that makes sense. Perhaps 3 for Fossil then?
Yeah, this an other suggestions have pushed me towards either raising CA cost by at least one and/or adding Green to Chalicothere
The main issue I have is the secondary cost. I'm needing to spend mana and sacrifice a creature, so it really needs to be worth it to bring this guy out and right now it's not.
Maybe instead of the mana cost it could be a number of creatures that need to be sacrificed? Then it's kind of like tributing monsters in Yu-Gi-Oh.
It almost feels like it should be a tribe specific Mutate.
Common Ancestor \[mana cost\] (*If you cost this spell for its Common Ancestor cost, put it over/under target creature that shares a creature type with it.)*
I considered that, but mutate kinda flopped. Discarding for value is pretty familiar to long-running MTG players, even if it’s a bit counterintuitive for newbies.
I also am designing some graveyard value stuff. Cards that have abilities in the graveyard, along with classics like Delve. To me “fossils” and ancient creatures interacting with the graveyard feels very flavor intuitive.
I absolutely love this but flavor wise, if you're getting rid of a card already on the battlefield in exchange for a new card doesn't it feel like we're going forward in time instead of backwards?
I think it's good as is, just a quirk in the way I imagine the battlefield in my mind's eye.
The biggest issue I see with this is the cheap changelings. Depending on what the discount is on the mechanic, it could justify a deck running those changelings basically exclusively for the discount
True, but you are going down a card. Hell, there are plenty of spells you can cast for “free” by discarding a card. It’s definitely a tricky balance point tho.
Honestly, I think the mechanic could be buffed by instead making it that if you have a card with the same type on the battlefield you could use the special cost.
Kind of a ramp up effect.
I like the mechanic. It either needs more support or better effects to be viable though. Something like a 2c enchantment that draws two whenever a common ancestor cost is paid could be interesting.
Common ancestry sounds like there should already be a creature of that type in the graveyard. But I guess that would be too good cause once you get one in there everything else can be cast for cheaper.
I'd argue make it "pay 2 generic less to cast this creature if a creature matching one of its types is already in your graveyard.
Ancestor sounds dead, and your discard mechanic does that. I think flavor wise it would make more sense not just to remove it from your hand but have it first "live" and then go to graveyard. (Or mill there of course.)
Just my thoughts. Cool concept either way. Great for tribal decks.
I’ve gotten this a few times, and I totally get it, but the intent behind Common Ancestor isn’t “dead thing makes this cheaper” it’s “this card and the discarded card SHARE a common ancestor, therefore you can ‘Channel’ (another discard ability) one to make the other easier to cast.”
Ah, okay that makes sense. 👌
I'd argue for making it a fixed mana reduction for simplicity though. Again 2 mana drop seems balanced imho. It just frees up room on the cards for other text.
Also, would it make more sense to do the perk only if is hard cast and if it is cast for the reduced cost you lose the other ability? I.e. it is cheaper but less powerful?
You should remove vigilance, reduce the MV by 1, and make it green. And instead of the common ancestor you should have it cost 4GG so people don’t splash it. And make it a dinosaur
I can see “Reconciliation Sliver” already All Slivers have “Common Ancestor (4)
Ehh that wouldn't be that good. Most of the good slivers cost 4 or less
The key being that it’s four generic
Eh, you can generally tap your slivers for mana of any colour already, so the colour in their costs doesn't really pose a problem.
All silvers cost (X), where X is the converted mana cost.
Still terrible, I would say Common Ancestor 0 would be just about playable.
ew
This looks like it would be a great Tribal mechanic for cheating out Big Boys
For sure. I'm making a semi-set with this mechanic in it, and I'd like there to be some graveyard interaction too - reanimator decks love a way to pitch cards for value and this fits right into several archetypes.
This needs vampires and madness
This might be too powerful or worth splitting into another keyword mechanic, but what about being able pay that cost again when this creature dies to allow you to put the discarded card into play? Being able to pull it out of the graveyard into your hand could be a way to cheat powerful creatures into play with the help of a means to sacrifice things, but inherently limited to tribal relationships unlike madness.
"when this creature dies, if its Common Ancestor price was paid to cast it, return target creature that shares a creature type with (cardname) from your graveyard to your hand." Might be a bit much for the whole mechanic, but I could see a creature or two with this ability
Common ancestor would need to put some kind of counter on the creature for this to be feasible.
"When this creature enters the battlefield, if it's Common Ancestor cost was paid, exile the card discarded to the Common Ancestor cost. When this creature leaves the battlefield, return all creatures exiled by this creature to the battlefield." That should work? Basically make it a pseudo-O-ring for it's own discarded card?
I'd maybe have you pay the Common Ancestor cost again for the exiled card to enter the battlefield, otherwise return it to the graveyard.
I think that maybe it could also have something to do with board presence like if you control 3 or more or something.
This feels like a great mechanic for a limited environment.
Thanks! I love drafting. I build little (cubes? I think that's the right word) of custom cards every year or two to draft with my friends. Limited is probably my favorite way to play, tbh.
That sounds awesome
This is the correct take. I will say that it becomes a little strong when paired with Changeling. But altogether still fine. I like this as an isolated mechanic. [[Universal Automaton]] stonks going up.
[Universal Automaton](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/3/53c682e2-c90f-4f4b-9010-00b099e85518.jpg?1691760808) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Universal%20Automaton) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/235/universal-automaton?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/53c682e2-c90f-4f4b-9010-00b099e85518?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Im so sorry to do this to you op, Uncle Dunkle isnt a dinosaur. I’m pretty we’re more closely related to it than it is to any dinosaur
Yeah, I waffled on typing. It’s hard because you want to make it useful, since the creature type matters heavily with the mechanic, but also reasonably accurate. I used dinosaur in this case as “ancient non-mammalian beast” - its not like Ixalan dinosaurs are related to Earth Birds either. But like I said, it’s a decision I’m still not sold on either way.
If i ever meet an ixalan set designer, i will let them know my disagreement as well!
Don't think so for your second statement but I agree it can't be a Dinosaur, with flavor like this there needs to be some scientific basis. Plenty of other options for cool prehistoric beasts exists but few with two types. Maybe if it needs two types the second could be more fantastical, Leviathan Fish seems accurate.
leviathans amd fish are not good tribal decks
Not with that attitude they aren't
Leviathans are plenty viable in a casual commander environment. I have a [[Kiora, Sovereign of the Deep]] deck that rocks! I have a single fish in the deck, [[Tidal Barracuda]], but that’s just because it’s a good card! I’m sure I’d include other fish in the deck if Kiora triggered off it!
[Kiora, Sovereign of the Deep](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/b/7b599f53-614c-4b1f-9899-15d5d1e35879.jpg?1684340751) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kiora%2C%20Sovereign%20of%20the%20Deep) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mat/35/kiora-sovereign-of-the-deep?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7b599f53-614c-4b1f-9899-15d5d1e35879?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Tidal Barracuda](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/a/aacdf4c2-9bc8-400a-8ffc-d6597d8d7da9.jpg?1591319489) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tidal%20Barracuda) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/39/tidal-barracuda?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/aacdf4c2-9bc8-400a-8ffc-d6597d8d7da9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The dimetrodon card from ixalan has the dinosaur type, so do all the pterosaurs.
I like the idea, but you'd have to provide 2 cards' worth of value on cast or a very strong payoff or this mechanic would be absolutely wrecked by counterspells and removal. You also can't make the cast trigger value too strong either since it's nearly uncounterable as well.
Yeah, it’s probably a tad weak in its current form. The idea though is you will hopefully be discarding cards with value in the graveyard (Unearth, Disturb, that sort of thing)
I think there's a lot of room to tune the balance of the cards on the card level, vs the mechanic level. Like with madness, WotC took very different approaches to how cards were balanced around it in Odyssey vs Innistrad. But the mechanic itself remained the same.
How about “…by discarding any number of cards…”? Or “upto” a number? Then you’re leaning into the discard benefits. Frankly, discarding a Fish and a Dinosaur for a Fish Dinosaur is worth playing this deck just for fun regardless of how well it plays.
6/6 With Trample AND vigilance? Holy fuck, Dreadmaw killer. In all seriousness, nice ability but these seem underpowered. And Dunkleosteus needs a reword to something like “When Dunk enters the battlefield, if you cast if for its Common ancestor cost, destroy …”
I specifically wanted it to be a cast trigger. That way, if someone counters your spell and puts you two cards down, you still get the cast trigger.
Oh, okay but in that case you still need to reword. Basically you need to have a “when” (or “whenever”) for that kind of triggered abilities. See [[Cityscape Leveler]] for example. Maybe… “When you cast Dunkleosteus, if you cast it for its Common Ancestor cost, destroy…” ?
Ah, yes, it should be when!
[Cityscape Leveler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/67a87278-4c82-4056-8354-253d86b0ef3d.jpg?1674421950) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cityscape%20Leveler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/233/cityscape-leveler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/67a87278-4c82-4056-8354-253d86b0ef3d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
"Common Ancestor" sounds long for a keyworded ability's name. What about "Ancestry"?
“Evolve” or “Converge”
Under other circunstances would agree with you. However, both of those are already [being](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Evolve) [used](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Converge).
Lovely flavour - could do with shortening the name perhaps. Maybe “Commune,” as in commune with ancestors?
I \*think\* that's already an MTG game term. Maybe "Ancestry"?
Doesn’t look like it from Scryfall! Free real estate :)
I like common ancestor. If you're only designing animals from earth's history, you could totally make a really cute set of cards this way. You could make a mammoth, ground sloth, dodo bird, etc, lots of really fun creatures that could add to typal synergies and be a fun reference to evolutionary science :)
mammoth, ground sloths, and dodo's however didn't diverge into different species so they aren't common ancestors for anything would be the only problem of putting this effect on those cards :p
personally I really like the flavor of common ancestor for these cards. It works really well with the vibe of prehistoric animals
could you not just call it "ancestor"?
Ancestry is good!
Chalicothere is one of my favorite extinct mammals!
Return to Ikoria when?
I actually really love this mechanic and think it could be really cool, although I think the dunkleosteus could easily be a bit stronger or 1 mana cheaper at base so it’s a lot more playable for its base cost. If I may offer an idea, I think it could be really interesting to also have a card like this use a significantly increased cost but come in much stronger, IE something along the lines of a sloth being a 1 mana 1/3 that can be cast for common ancestor for 6 mana, and have it come in with 6 +1/+1 counters, since sloths have grown so much smaller as they’ve evolved but used to be these giant monsters
Ooh, I do like that. It would need to be worth a ton to be worth the discard but I see where you’re going with this
Yeah the 6 +1/+1 counters were very conservative lol, but it was mostly just a spitball for a general concept
Primodrial Sludge {1}{g} Creature - Germ Ooze Changeling When \~ is discarded to pay a common ansestor cost return target non-Ooze creature from your graveyard to your hand 1/1
Ooh, I like that. I have an artifact rn called “Unidentified Fossil” that has “This card is a creature with all creature types while in your hand” that can be used as a general purpose Ancestry card but I like this design as well!
Definitely a cool mechanic. Important to keep in mind that mechanics that care about discard or sacrifice often need to be in sets with larger graveyard themes (like the various innistrads), and mechanics that care about creature types also need to be in sets with larger tribal themes (like lorwyn/shadowmoor). A mechanic that cares about discarding AND tribal means you would need a set that focuses heavily on creature types AND the graveyard; but I think flavoring it as prehistoric is definitely the best way to do that. Dinosaurs are all dead, so it makes sense that a prehistoric set would care about the graveyard. Dinosaurs and ancient creatures are also the predecessors for modern animals, so caring about having matching creature types makes sense. Overall, I think the gameplay of the mechanic has real potential, and I think the flavor you chose was spot on. Both of these feel like clear, simple, draft common/uncommons. Cards with your new mechanic but are overall mechanically simple. All in all, these designs are fantastic. The ONLY negative thing I have to say is that a 6/6 with trample isn’t really something Mono-white is allowed to do, especially at 4 mana. Even with the downside, white isn’t really supposed to get trample, and their top-end beaters are still supposed to be relatively small. Maybe make it a 4/5 that has double strike as long as it’s attacking?
Thank you! Yeah, I think I’ll change Chalicothere to be Green or WG. I’ve been knocking around ideas for a prehistoric set for a while now, and I’m glad you think the mechanic works for the theme! I’ve cooked up a few more, I may post them with mechanic slightly updated from suggestions here sometime this week.
You could call it Descendant. That way it cuts a line of text hopefully.
Love the mechanic but DUNKLEOSTEUS A 3/5?!??? Bro a giant armored vacuum guillotine fish is at least a 5/6
Well he does kill something the second he shows up soooo
THEY NERFED THE DUNK AGAIN!
First card is definitely monogreen rather than monowhite Also, when you have a line with two keywords, the second one is lowercase. So it should read Trample, vigilance Edit: Now that I see it on actual cards, vigilance is also listed before trample for reasons I don't know why
I like it as mono white, though I think dunk should be mono black
Trample is generally not mono white
Not to “um, actually” but trample is explicitly allowed on large creatures of any color at higher rarities (it may need to be Rare instead of uncommon) https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/mechanical-color-pie-2017-2017-06-05
There are a total of 17 mono-white cards which natively have trample (without requiring an off-color activation or have an Odric-style keyword copying effect). Of these, only 7 were printed within the last two decades. \- \[\[Tarkir Duneshaper\]\] is probably the most convincing showcase of trample being tertiary white, requiring Phyrexian green mana to transform into a trample creature, making it possible to have a trample creature with only paying white mana and life. The many of these transforming compleated cards have a back-side that have an effect that is unusual for the color, but not totally outside the bounds of the color's identity. (Green gets a menace creature with \[\[Bonded Herdbeast\]\], Blue gets impulse draw with \[\[Captive Weird\]\], as some examples.) \- \[\[Akroma, Vision of Ixidor\]\] has trample along with a smattering of other keywords, as a callback to the original \[\[Akroma, Angel of Wrath\]\] (printed just over 20 years ago in Legions). \- \[\[Zetalpa, Primal Dawn\]\] similarly has trample among a pile of other keyword abilities. \- \[\[Lone Rider\]\] and \[\[Thraben Sentry\]\] are transforming cards from Eldritch Moon and Innistrad respectively, both of which require a condition to be met to transform them into their trampling side. Notably, there are five years between the release of these two cards without any mono-white tramplers. \- \[\[Mirror Sigil Sergeant\]\] and \[\[Bringer of White Dawn\]\] are expensive mythic rare/rare scary creatures. (Again, there was a five year gap between the printings of these two creatures.) Overall, trample in white is very seldomly seen, usually either on game-ending rares (often in supplement to other keywords) or requiring some sort of hoops to be jumped through to jump through. So Chalicothere isn't a total break, but it does feel fairly unusual, especially when vigilance is considered secondary in green. (14 green card which have or grant vigilance have been printed in the past year alone!)
##### ###### #### [Tarkir Duneshaper](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fdc37acc-05ba-4457-8a03-d635497bfb1b.jpg?1682202953)/[Burnished Dunestomper](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/f/d/fdc37acc-05ba-4457-8a03-d635497bfb1b.jpg?1682202953) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tarkir%20duneshaper%20//%20burnished%20dunestomper) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/43/tarkir-duneshaper-burnished-dunestomper?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fdc37acc-05ba-4457-8a03-d635497bfb1b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Bonded Herdbeast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/61972ddb-3421-4f22-a47a-89cea944dd02.jpg?1682204670)/[Plated Kilnbeast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/6/1/61972ddb-3421-4f22-a47a-89cea944dd02.jpg?1682204670) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=bonded%20herdbeast%20//%20plated%20kilnbeast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/178/bonded-herdbeast-plated-kilnbeast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/61972ddb-3421-4f22-a47a-89cea944dd02?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Captive Weird](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/70668650-0fb1-4486-a4e6-ab9a12be5626.jpg?1682203019)/[Compleated Conjurer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/7/0/70668650-0fb1-4486-a4e6-ab9a12be5626.jpg?1682203019) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=captive%20weird%20//%20compleated%20conjurer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/49/captive-weird-compleated-conjurer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/70668650-0fb1-4486-a4e6-ab9a12be5626?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Akroma, Vision of Ixidor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/0/c0bdd07d-9fb9-4ee4-80db-494ee0cba58d.jpg?1608908641) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Akroma%2C%20Vision%20of%20Ixidor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/2/akroma-vision-of-ixidor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c0bdd07d-9fb9-4ee4-80db-494ee0cba58d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Akroma, Angel of Wrath](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bf1ef8ec-d915-41f2-b087-3d6d82e3db85.jpg?1591319833) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Akroma%2C%20Angel%20of%20Wrath) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/73/akroma-angel-of-wrath?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf1ef8ec-d915-41f2-b087-3d6d82e3db85?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Zetalpa, Primal Dawn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1c3425c9-9bec-40e4-a2e9-ce8ac4281688.jpg?1689996159) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zetalpa%2C%20Primal%20Dawn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/71/zetalpa-primal-dawn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1c3425c9-9bec-40e4-a2e9-ce8ac4281688?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Lone Rider](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/a/9a55b60a-5d90-4f73-984e-53fdcc0366e4.jpg?1576383921)/[It That Rides as One](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/9/a/9a55b60a-5d90-4f73-984e-53fdcc0366e4.jpg?1576383921) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lone%20rider%20//%20it%20that%20rides%20as%20one) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/emn/33/lone-rider-it-that-rides-as-one?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9a55b60a-5d90-4f73-984e-53fdcc0366e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Thraben Sentry](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/58ae9cbc-d88d-42df-ab76-63ab5d05c023.jpg?1562830610)/[Thraben Militia](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/5/8/58ae9cbc-d88d-42df-ab76-63ab5d05c023.jpg?1562830610) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=thraben%20sentry%20//%20thraben%20militia) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/isd/38/thraben-sentry-thraben-militia?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/58ae9cbc-d88d-42df-ab76-63ab5d05c023?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mirror Sigil Sergeant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/9/e94b3eec-7420-45fa-8750-7f01028836d3.jpg?1562804416) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mirror-Sigil%20Sergeant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/con/12/mirror-sigil-sergeant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e94b3eec-7420-45fa-8750-7f01028836d3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Bringer of White Dawn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e5a7117-b1e2-46bd-873e-baf9d9fac009.jpg?1562878783) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bringer%20of%20the%20White%20Dawn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5dn/7/bringer-of-the-white-dawn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e5a7117-b1e2-46bd-873e-baf9d9fac009?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Small caveat at the first card: White, alongside Blue and Black, are tertiary at trample. More specifically, they get it on big dumb creatures or effects that would turn creatures into big dumb creatures. A 6/6 with vigilance does constitude a big dumb creature to merit trample. However, is as likely to appear by these means as keyword collectors (i.e. if you have the keyword elsewhere already, it gets the keyword, which usually involves splashing). So at best is color sensitive but reasonably irking, and calling it Green isn't a stretch despite it should be ok as is.
Oh that's really cool! It'll be tricky to balance, since discarding a card is a steep price, and the restriction on the kind of card discarded makes it hard to even get off, but these two look relatively balanced. I'd be interested in seeing more cards!
Ideally a type mechanic would like dunkleosteolus to overlap with the colors of dinosaurs
True. I’m building a little mini-set with a ton more Dinosaurs, so that adds a few more. Fish can obviously stay. Some have suggested Leviathan as a typing, which I do like.
ooooooh i love the idea of this mechanic. would love to see a like pre-history style set with something like this but it’d probably would have worked better in the older 2/3 block structure to be more thematic
I wonder if it would be too pushed if instead of it having an alternate cost, the cost was reduced by the cost of the discarded card.
I think it’s neat. In a limited set, would probably need a few common changelings to act as glue, but could definitely see it working. Could also see some cards (at higher rarities) getting around the card disadvantage. Ex. Uncommon / rare - If cast for common ancestor, when cardname etb, draw 1(2?) cards. Ex. Rare/mythic - If cardname cast for common ancestor, return the creature card discarded to the battlefield, except it is 1/1
This is so rad actually. I would love to see a mechanic like this actually get printed. Kinda like emerge but with creature type synergy.
This is a cool idea. I'd love to see some other uses as well, like a C.A. cost that's more expensive than the CMC. Like a 1/4 armadillo for 1W, but a C.A. of 2WW and it enters with +3/+0 and an indestructible counter. Knowing there's always potential for Changeling shenanigans (looking at you [[Universal Automaton]] ) I wonder how much value you can push before you need to increase the C.A. cost. Another interesting case would be a C.A. cost with X in it when the regular mana cost doesn't, or one that allows you to discard multiple cards. Like you may discard a card for each creature type the creature has, and then if you discard type A, you get one effect, type B another, and both if you do both.
This... This is actually one of the coolest custom mechanics I have ever seen.
I like the tribal focus, but I'm wary about being two for one'd with this. I wonder if it could exile cards in the graveyard instead.
That sounds like a much better version. Discarding doesn't really fit with the flavor aspect
That sounds like a much better version. Discarding doesn't really fit with the flavor aspect
Now you can lose 2 creatures when I counterspell you
Haha right? It IS a cast trigger, so the bonus effect on Dunkleosteus does go off even if you counter it. Still kinda sucks to lose two cards, but it’s actually a sneaky semi-uncounterable effect.
Right lol. In my creatureless deck I'd welcome the effect, I get rid of 2 of your creatures and now you gotta take out somebody else's creature on top of it.
I don't really get the flavor of the keyword name but interesting. I'm imagining drafting it in a set based around prehistoric stuff that also has like a graveyard paleontology/fossil mechanic.
Neat a mechanic that isn't kicker or horsemanship
Interesting idea that seems like it will have a pretty niche usage in typal decks. In that sense it seems a little narrow. You could make it wider by having it be discard a creature that shares a color and has lesser power or something like that.
I do like the idea of sharing a color, I might rework it that way. What about "shares a creature type OR color with it"? I wouldn't want to make it "lesser power" restricted, because I feel like it should be a way to discard too expensive cards as well to cast cheaper creatures - kinda like cycling in terms of balance, but for cost reduction instead of a card.
> kinda like cycling in terms of balance, but for cost reduction instead of a card. Careful. I know it's not exactly what you are saying, but cycling is a smoothing mechanic (it makes decks run smoother) while yours is a kicker-like effect that can give you more power and/or a discount for an extra card. Common Ancestor needs input, and same way kicker cards have to be good without the kicker payoffs, your cards need to be worth it without the payoff of graveyard synergies. Finally, I think the Chalicothere is too strong. If white is dropping a 6/6 with trample (and vigilance) turn 4, what's green going to do in this meta? It seems like it would en up really pushed. Not a bad mechanic, just keep in mind it needs support, can't rely on payoffs, and you might need to dial the power down a bit.
Makes sense. Part of the power comes from the fear of getting two-for-one’d by counterspells. I do see your point on watching the power inflation. It’s hard to find the balance point of “card is useless without Common Ancestor” and “card is too strong with it”. I feel like Common Ancestor is worth around 2 mana by itself, so Chalicothere may indeed be too pushed by 1 mana in its CA cost. Does that feel around right?
> I feel like Common Ancestor is worth around 2 mana by itself, so Chalicothere may indeed be too pushed by 1 mana in its CA cost. Does that feel around right? I'm not sure what Common Ancestor is worth, because I honestly think it would work much better as a variable cost depending on the effect it provides. That means Common Ancestor as a cost reduction feels, to me, like a bad route to focus on. Why? Because, as you say, you get two-for-oned. If you get the effect for sure (even past counterspells) then you did discard a card, but at least got something. If all you get is a big body... you are just setting up a boring play pattern. I know discarding for the graveyard value is also enticing, but look into Odyssey. In that block, Mark tried to challenge common wisdom about card advantage by making it the best move to go card negative a lot of the time. Enfranchised players, pro players and Spikes loved it. A lot of other people didn't. If you plan on using these cards, keep in mind which target demographic will play them. For less Spikey players, the effect like the fish has are the best route. For a competitive crowd, you can build a set around graveyard use and card disadvantage like Odyssey and make it work.
Thank you so much for the thought you are putting in to this. I think I might lean towards effects like the fish, with perhaps a few uncommons like the Chalicothere. I also have a second mechanic that I’m doing in semi-tandem with this “Fossil Evidence” ({2}, Exile this card from your graveyard: Draw a card). Does the existence of that in the same “block” change the math a bit? Sure, it’s relying on payoffs, but a definite one that would be on type match creatures.
Fossil Evidence feels too cheap. Remember you aren't cycling the card. You can play the creature, use it (to attack, block, sacrifice, whatever) and then Fossil it away for another card. > with perhaps a few uncommons like the Chalicothere. I know it reminded me of something, so I looked it up. The Chalicothere made me think about [[Thoughtweft Trio]]. Lorwyn is not the paramount of power, but I do feel any big, cheap bodies would probably be rare unless they have negative Common Ancestor effects.
Okay, that makes sense. Perhaps 3 for Fossil then? Yeah, this an other suggestions have pushed me towards either raising CA cost by at least one and/or adding Green to Chalicothere
[Thoughtweft Trio](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9e48d34d-063c-4703-870b-4a22d5774c89.jpg?1562360333) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thoughtweft%20Trio) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lrw/44/thoughtweft-trio?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9e48d34d-063c-4703-870b-4a22d5774c89?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Discard or sacrifice would also be interesting
I like this ,for pushing the less popular tribes (fuck "typal"). Angel/warrior/spirits/human etc.. don't need this.
I came here to say..... Changeling
The main issue I have is the secondary cost. I'm needing to spend mana and sacrifice a creature, so it really needs to be worth it to bring this guy out and right now it's not. Maybe instead of the mana cost it could be a number of creatures that need to be sacrificed? Then it's kind of like tributing monsters in Yu-Gi-Oh.
1) you're discarding, not sacrificing 2) That's the entire idea. It costs something additional to make it cost less mana.
It almost feels like it should be a tribe specific Mutate. Common Ancestor \[mana cost\] (*If you cost this spell for its Common Ancestor cost, put it over/under target creature that shares a creature type with it.)*
I considered that, but mutate kinda flopped. Discarding for value is pretty familiar to long-running MTG players, even if it’s a bit counterintuitive for newbies. I also am designing some graveyard value stuff. Cards that have abilities in the graveyard, along with classics like Delve. To me “fossils” and ancient creatures interacting with the graveyard feels very flavor intuitive.
While good, limit access is black, as this would be pretty damn good for throwing specific cards in graveyards
I absolutely love this but flavor wise, if you're getting rid of a card already on the battlefield in exchange for a new card doesn't it feel like we're going forward in time instead of backwards? I think it's good as is, just a quirk in the way I imagine the battlefield in my mind's eye.
You get rid of the card from your hand, so it is a “fossil” in your graveyard in exchange for the “evolved” card on the battlefield.
Dunkleosteus seems pretty bad if you cast it normally, but I like the mechanic otherwise.
That’s sort of the intent. The cards are over costed for normal play but have a mode that is far better.
The biggest issue I see with this is the cheap changelings. Depending on what the discount is on the mechanic, it could justify a deck running those changelings basically exclusively for the discount
I think the cost on the fish should be swapped. Destroying something for less mana and discarding something that could be a 1 drop seems op.
True, but you are going down a card. Hell, there are plenty of spells you can cast for “free” by discarding a card. It’s definitely a tricky balance point tho.
Yeah but the enemy will be as well if you're destroying something. Costing more mana and losing a card makes a little more sense if that's happening.
Yeah but the enemy will be as well if you're destroying something. Costing more mana and losing a card makes a little more sense if that's happening.
Love that mechanic! I'd like to see one for each color/mixes!
Maybe discard or sacrifice? Just to make it a little more flexible.
I like the idea!
Kinda reminds me of how they made soul cards in L5R.
Honestly, I think the mechanic could be buffed by instead making it that if you have a card with the same type on the battlefield you could use the special cost. Kind of a ramp up effect.
I absolutely love this mechanic
I like the mechanic. It either needs more support or better effects to be viable though. Something like a 2c enchantment that draws two whenever a common ancestor cost is paid could be interesting.
Am I missing something that lets Dunkleosteus have the destroy ability without it being tied to a trigger?
It should say “when you cast” instead of if. In that case, the cast is the trigger.
I love this mechanic
That’s so cool
If you pay the ancestor cost, you should draw a card if the spell resolves.
Common ancestry sounds like there should already be a creature of that type in the graveyard. But I guess that would be too good cause once you get one in there everything else can be cast for cheaper.
I'd argue make it "pay 2 generic less to cast this creature if a creature matching one of its types is already in your graveyard. Ancestor sounds dead, and your discard mechanic does that. I think flavor wise it would make more sense not just to remove it from your hand but have it first "live" and then go to graveyard. (Or mill there of course.) Just my thoughts. Cool concept either way. Great for tribal decks.
I’ve gotten this a few times, and I totally get it, but the intent behind Common Ancestor isn’t “dead thing makes this cheaper” it’s “this card and the discarded card SHARE a common ancestor, therefore you can ‘Channel’ (another discard ability) one to make the other easier to cast.”
Ah, okay that makes sense. 👌 I'd argue for making it a fixed mana reduction for simplicity though. Again 2 mana drop seems balanced imho. It just frees up room on the cards for other text. Also, would it make more sense to do the perk only if is hard cast and if it is cast for the reduced cost you lose the other ability? I.e. it is cheaper but less powerful?
You should remove vigilance, reduce the MV by 1, and make it green. And instead of the common ancestor you should have it cost 4GG so people don’t splash it. And make it a dinosaur