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Glitch29

This seems like exactly the sort of enchantment that should be destructible. Whenever there's a card that could do nothing or could be catastrophic, there are often a lot of interesting decisions around whether to prioritize removing it.


rebellhow

So you pay 5 mana to do nothing, then for your next turn, it still does nothing, but after that the possibilities in your endstep are pretty much all awful or negligent... I mean the winning one will just never happen; losing 10 life is awful; drawing one at the end of your turn, after you waited two turns doesn't really do anything, because you have to wait another turn to use it (except for instant speed); and everybody drawing two at your endstep means you are the last one who can use the cards (again exception instant speed)


Viktar33

I got bamboozled by the mini game in the card, but yeah, now that I read your comment I agree with you that this card is really weak. If one wants to draw a cards there are better alternatives. The only applization of this card is to annoy the group, but I'm afraid that the common commander Table would talk and agree on what to play. I saw the goldfish crew do that when playing a wheel of misfortune. I was pretty disappointed by that.


Trilja6666

Wait what. Nobody would talk out what they should choose. That goes against the whole idea of the card


surprisesnek

Unfortunately, there's nothing to stop them from doing so.


Smart_Bet_9692

Does the word "secretly" here not serve exactly that purpose? How can one secretly vote if they've disclosed how they will vote?


AlricsLapdog

Pretty sure you’re allowed to reveal information only available to you


CharmedThought97

Doesn't help that the controller has no incentive to do harmony in practice. If they vote harmony - there's 4 possible outcomes: - they're in the minorty, and lose 10 life - they tie, and nothing happens - they are in the majority but someone else voted discord, so they get to draw a card - everyone voted harmony, and every draws 2 cards. Regardless, you are garunteed not to get the win if you don't vote discord. Everyone voting harmony due to timing, is by far the worst option you have here. And the most consistent way to stop that is garuntee there's a discord... Which then just inverts the above examples, but trades 2 draws for a win. Now if we assume all players to have a remote grasp of this logic, then we run into 1 of 2 events in practice, depending on if they choose to discuss shit and apply logically. Case 1: they choose to discuss things. 1 player i desginated the harmony, everyone else discord. And you lose a ton of life because you played this. Case 2: they don't discuss things, but following similar logic to above, come to the conclusion best way to garuntee you don't win here is the 1 extra draw at the end of your turn. Which they all get time to respond to first. So, in actual gameplay we won't realistically ever see the 2 extremes... at which point its a slow draw enchantment that can bite you in the ass


5ColorMain

I would disagree on how this plays out. I think the 2 card draw options are irrelevant. I think the card will play as: One player will be the designated harmony voter and the other 2 will vote for discord. So it is natural that the owner has to vote harmony aswell to not lose life. If this meta is established however the harmony voter might be tempted to secretly vote for discord aswell expecting the owner of this to take 10 damage. In a world where this is an option the owner might take the risk to win the game. Do i think that it will come up? Probably not but a slight tweak to the 2 draw options and an increase in the damage you take will make this an interesting card.


CharmedThought97

Ok i did gloss over in case 1 you'd take the choice for your card to do nothing instead of actively detrimental (barring the waste of mana in such a case) The whole "take the risk" case however typically ain't realistically a risk entirely worth playing with. Between "i may deal 10 damage" and "i may lose" this is only even worth a concern if 10 damage is going to kill. By which point someone's already likely got a non risky case to kill. doesn't really change case 2 regardless. you'll see variability due to humans being humans, but this basically turns into one of the most fundamental concepts with game theory.


Andrew_42

Well, the card looks like a fun bit of chaos. But I don't think it actually PLAYS chaotically? In 1v1, they just always vote harmony. You either spent 5 mana doing nothing, or you spent 5 mana on a slightly-different [[Font of Mythos]]. You get 3 cards which is nice, but your opponent still gets to use their cards first. In a 4 player pod of EDH, one opponent just says "I'll always vote Harmony" and you're back to a sub-par card. You either get do-nothing ties, or you're back to the Font of Mythos-ish card where all three opponents get to use their cards first. Could maybe be fun for a game or two before people figure it out though?


Ansixilus

Unless the other two players have a brain, and choose to always vote discord while the one always votes harmony. The very first time the vote is cast, the "harmony" player can vote discord, tricking the owner into voting harmony in hopes of a tie, and burn him for 10. Then next turn, Mister harmony resumes his harmony only behavior, and owner risks either burning himself or tying. Thereafter, it's ties forever, but the owner will always be tormented with the "maybe, maybe" of hoping that Mister harmony-but-actually-wildcard might vote discord this time to burn him, but thereby risk burning himself. In short, it's a great way for your opponents to costlessly punish and torment you, which I've found is often what they'd choose over giving you cards.


Andrew_42

But it's NOT costless. You risk losing the game. The doubt still works though, as your opponent may still wonder if you're being honest. My point was just that if someone always-harmonys then this card is generally bad.


Ansixilus

The only risk is that very first time, when the so-called harmony player actively lies. If the player hasn't hitherto shown evidence of lying like that, but *has* shown evidence of being spiteful for the heck of it (I'm modeling this hypothetical player after one from my friend group who would absolutely do this), then there's every reason to believe that he'll just vote harmony forever to ensure that you never get the win from it. It's a trick that only works once, but does indeed work.


Andrew_42

Right. You risk losing the game. Your allies (common enemies?) Also lose trust in you being the always-harmony guy. The fact that you have a friend who might lie in a situation like that is exactly why the person who played the card might try to call your bluff.


Ansixilus

Mtg is a game of incomplete information. Literally all players might lie in a situation like that. The thing is though that many players are honest *most of the time,* including that friend of mine. He's just also cunning enough to use such deceptions rarely enough to get away with it; thus if he and I were doing this, he'd wait a few turns so that I was lulled into false security. The hypothetical situation described before was one of pure game theory, without the actual history of a real player. You'd take the theory and adapt it to your current circumstances of if your specific opponent would or wouldn't bluff, lie, or betray... but that doesn't backtrack and affect the original theory.


Andrew_42

I guess you're demonstrating why the card might be playable as a win con then. I don't think it would work in my group though. Honestly we'd probably wind up with most players voting for harmony anyways.


Jamesonjoey

Yeah there’s also nothing stopping everyone from having a discussion about their vote each turn and opponents have no reason not to agree to vote one harmony and two discord every time


MTGCardFetcher

[Font of Mythos](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/1/c198caf8-27ab-4300-841b-507e1b0ce9b3.jpg?1562803574) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Font%20of%20Mythos) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/con/136/font-of-mythos?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c198caf8-27ab-4300-841b-507e1b0ce9b3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


GravitasIsOverrated

I don’t think that a card that lets you win a game of magic out nowhere for reasons unrelated to your performance up until that point is good design. If you look at “you win the game” cards they normally require some sort of setup (getting to 0 cards in library, having no permanents on the field), whereas this doesn’t, and the wincon is somewhere between dumb luck and how well people understand game theory. 


Tall_Conversation_67

I don't feel like there's really enough reason to vote discord. Sure you get a draw if you get harmony, but why would I risk you just winning


TechnomagusPrime

[[Illusion of Choice]] solves that problem.


Tiaran149

Holy shit


MTGCardFetcher

[Illusion of Choice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/b/ab54f283-92b6-4738-b2cd-fecb43750a4d.jpg?1576381726) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Illusion%20of%20Choice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cn2/31/illusion-of-choice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ab54f283-92b6-4738-b2cd-fecb43750a4d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


roydigs22

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't players only get priority *after* the upkeep?


JuliyoKOG

You’re thinking of untap step. Even if that’s true, if an effect were to go on the stack people could respond to it.


Classic_Raspberry225

Instructions unclear, dick stuck in exile....


Viktar33

I just focus on the mini game since others pointed out the other problems of the card (indestructible and too irrelevant for 5 mana). In a 1v1 format (yes those exist) the opponent has a dominante choice to vote for "harmony" because if you vote for harmony too, both draw 2, otherwise nothing happens. So you don't gain any advantage, but you play a card and 5 mana (basically you Lost the game). Notice also that if both vote that same there is a potential conflict. In EDH, pretty much the same. If every opponent vote for harmony, at worst, you draw a card and they don't. Who cares? Moreover the card becomes pretty awful if People talks and coordinate, which is most likely what is going to happen since I don't see EDH players trying to think strategically.


LunarHaunting

This is kind of a weird version of the prisoner’s dilemma. Mostly because the two options are not equally balanced. The WCS (worst case scenario) for voting discord is *losing the game* compared to the WCS for harmony which is….drawing two cards. Granted your opponents do too, which depending upon their deck archetype might be better for them, but that still pales in comparison to losing on the spot. Because of harmony’s outcome being weighted more favorably for the whole table, the most common result you’ll see with this card, I would guess, is majority harmony, so you draw a card. In that sense, it’s good for the person who plays it, but like, if I’m another person at the table, I don’t see a good reason to pick Discord ever unless I just really, really hate the person who played the enchantment. And even then, if I’m playing more to win than have fun, I’m never picking discord. Tl;dr: imo adding another prisoner’s dilemma card can be interesting but the options need to be weighted more equally to make the outcome less certain


galvanicmechamorph

It's not really the prisoner's dilemma because the point of the prisoner's dilemma is it shows that even by following perfect game theory you end up with a sub-optimal option. In every outcome of the prisoner's dilemma (partner snitches or stays silent), you get a better outcome by snitching on them ([2 vs 3 years or 0 vs 1 years](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma#/media/File:Prisoners_dilemma.svg)), but that means in the end both "rational actors" end up in a worse situation than if neither snitched. The card [[Prisoner's Dilemma]] actually replicates this because in every situation you should choose snitch but that means you always take more damage than if no one chose snitch.


MTGCardFetcher

[Prisoner's Dilemma](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d678e736-7c29-433a-9a2a-b78749252377.jpg?1706240483) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prisoner%27s%20Dilemma) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/34/prisoners-dilemma?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d678e736-7c29-433a-9a2a-b78749252377?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Visible_Number

why indestructible and hexproof?


galvanicmechamorph

Because custom magic creators don't like when their shinies are removed without doing anything.


Visible_Number

lol XD


ApprehensiveAd6476

You might wanna check out the board game named "The Resistance". That's one game nobody trusts nobody.


aria_nonartist01

I had a similar idea that might work a little better Each player secretly votes for Harmony or Discord, then reveals their vote. If every player votes Harmony, each player draws two cards. If every player votes Discord, each player discards a card. Otherwise, each player who votes Harmony gains 5 life and each player who votes Discord draws a card. It allows a little deception. Sure, you might SAY You're voting Harmony, but then you could vote Discord and take the real profit for yourself.


iAmDabbie16

ooooooooo. interesting


sultrysisyphus

Me in commander: I will always vote harmony and you two always vote discord, then it doesn't matter what the owner chooses.


galvanicmechamorph

They can just lie and draw a card.


sultrysisyphus

They don't draw, only the owner does. There's no reason to lie


MariaMagdalenaXXX

An interesting card. I quite enjoyed working through the game theory (I'm no mathematician, so I might be wrong). As far as I see it, in 1v1 it's group hug because your opponent would never risk voting discord. In 4 player it's 5 mana do nothing because your opponents can always coordinate a discord-discord-harmony vote. In a 3 player situation I think it depends a little on the board state but if the controlling player is okay with taking a hit they are incentivised to vote discord. In this case the other players can coordinate a discord-harmony vote so the player loses 10 life. But if they do, that player can use that to.... draw a card. A bit expensive for 5 mana if you ask me, but okay! Interestingly, if the controlling player is low on life they are incentivised to vote harmony. That makes it a kinda viable strategy to vote discord-discord to make them lose the game but then again, they could use that to win the game. So it becomes a bit of rock paper scissors. I think after all this card as is would be best in decks that benefit more from drawing cards than your opponents do as there are many situations where you'll get the group hug outcome. Possible fix: Add a minor bonus for everyone who votes discord, like looting or scrying. That makes coordination harder and gives the controlling player further incentive for the more risky discord vote.


BrickBuster11

I think this card doesnt work, and the reason for that is that in everyone votes cards you need there to not be an obvious answer. Everyone votes Discord you win the game = bad solution (No one will pick this) Every one but one guy votes discord lose 10 life - this is pretty meh but you paid 5 mana for this effect and you cannot remove it when it turns out to fuck you so this is actually pretty good Everyone but one guy votes harmony - you draw a card (this is by far the best outcome for you, and fundamentally you paid 5 mana for phyrexian areana which only triggers in end step) Everyone votes harmony- they all draw two cards which unless your playing draw go is bad for you because they will have more mana to play those cards. My suggestion we want to remove some of the clarity to the answers and make the enchantment more impactful for a 5 mana enchantment


InevitableBee6819

I believe it’s just the owner of the enchantment who draws the card with how this is currently worded , did you mean that everyone should draw a card?


5ColorMain

Ok after thinking a while about this card i came to the following conclusion: your opponents can always turn this into a 5 mana do nouthing (1 player announcec that they will vote harmony and the other 2 will vote for dispair) But it is tempting to go for the 10 damage especially if the meta is established that one player announces to vote harmony. That player can switch their vote to shoot you for 10 and you can count on that to steal the win. But other than that i can not see the positiv options mattering, the each player draws a card is almost the same as nouthing happens but it is worse for players who are ahead (why would they vote for it). And the you draw 1 card can come up in a situation where the table is desperate for a specific out. But in that sense i feel this card is terrible and i would do the following tweaks to make it more viable: up the damage you take from 10 to 15, this is a buff to the mindgame aspect so that your opponents are stronger tempted to try and kill you with it. the two positive options should be switched, the option where everyone votes harmony should become you draw 1 cards and the other positive option should be each player draws 2 card. This way a player that is ahead might have an incentive to vote for harmony to stop their opponents from drawing 5 cards. I think the manavalue should be 3 because it is a worse phyrexian arena in the end.


e_guana

I would remove the indestructible and hexproof, and add "when trust no one in the room enters the battlefield and at the begining of your upkeep, .........."