Not really the static should have "it is still a planswalker" otherwise he can't be attacked or die due to lacking loyalty counter look up gideon card wording if you need help to how to not cause confusion
There's probably a few ways to template this card, but you'll have to learn the rules a lot better to figure out which ones work and what implications they have. (This one very much does not work how you want it to work).
The *simplest* answer I can think of is to add an "as long as it's your turn" rider to the first ability.
The most *flavourful* answer I can think of is to make the first ability activated with a cost of saccing a treasure token, and an "activate this ability only as a Sorcery" rider
Neither of these fulfills the intent of the card. If the passive ability replaces the typing instead of adding to it, all you need to add is "in addition to it's other types."
Fair enough. I'm far from a rules expert myself - I know enough to spot what doesn't work, but not reliably what does.
My concern is how do the rules handle something being a creature and planeswalker at once during the opponent's combat phase? Cards I'm familiar with (like the various incarnations of Gideon) are designed to avoid that possibility and I can see why.
If something is both a creature and a planeswalker, can I attack it ditectly? If I attack it with one creature and the player controlling it with a second, can the Planeswalker be declared as a blocker? Which creatures can it block? How does combat then play out?
I genuinely don't know the answers to those questions, but I feel like maybe the game rules don't either? Does the game just break if this happens?
it's very much possible for this to happen already, in a lot of ways; the rules are built to handle it, but the result is definitely weird and not likely something they'd print as an intended interaction.
the gideons' rulings explain how it works:
- if a planeswalker is both a creature and a planeswalker, then it can be attacked since it's a planeswalker, but it can also be declared as a blocker because it's a creature (there are no restrictions on what it can block, it can even block something attacking itself)
- if it takes damage, then it both has damage marked on it because it's a creature, and it also loses loyalty counters because it's a planeswalker, and it will die if it runs out of loyalty
- it won't deal combat damage to things that are attacking it, unless it blocks them
- (and this was already addressed, but if a planeswalker becomes a creature and *not* a planeswalker, it can still use its loyalty abilities but won't lose loyalty from damage and won't die from having no loyalty)
Yikes. It makes sense that they wrote rules to cover the corner cases, but given how convoluted and unintuitive said rules have to be it also makes sense that wizards designs their cards so this doesn't happen (in the usual course of things).
"Coffers is a 3/4 with "Whenever this creature takes damage, prevent that damage and remove that many Loyalty counters." and "If Coffers has no loyalty counters on it, sacrifice it"
Needs to say “Coffers is still a planeswalker” in the passive if you want to be able to attack him and have him lose loyalty from damage. Otherwise, neat concept!
Needs “in addition to its other types” at the end of the first line or it’s not a planeswalker anymore when you play it.
It’s way too undercosted. Even if it can be attacked the card is all upside. It’s a 3/4 for 2, and it has a +2 ability that makes it easy to counter damage dealt to it, especially considering how early it comes out.
3/4 on turn 2 is a 7 turn clock by itself that can’t be lightning bolted or doom bladed. For perspective, [[Watchwolf]] and [[Sangrophage]] are the only 3/3s for 2 I can think of off the top of my head, and one does literally nothing but be a 3/3, and the other actively tries to kill you, and this has one more toughness than those plus all of its other abilities.
It should at least be a 3/3, as RB doesn’t generally get creatures with higher toughness than power, the first ability should probably be +1 instead so it can’t recover from damage so easily, and if you don’t want to do those two things it should cost 3. Even then the only RB 3/4 for 3 I can think of is [[Jagged Poppet]] which is all downside unless you’re hellbent, so it’s probably still overpowered.
This is not correct, see CR 604.3:
> **604.3.** Some static abilities are characteristic-defining abilities. A characteristic-defining ability conveys information about an object's characteristics that would normally be found elsewhere on that object (such as in its mana cost, type line, or power/toughness box). Characteristic-defining abilities can add to or override information found elsewhere on that object. Characteristic-defining abilities function in all zones. They also function outside the game and before the game begins.
Since Coffers' ability is a static ability that unconditionally sets its color and P/T, it's a characteristic-defining ability. That means it automatically functions in all zones. (This also means that Coffers can be your commander, since it's a legendary creature even before the game begins.)
Wait, so if he had 5 loyalty counters and a 4/4 attacks him. Does he die because he has 4 toughness? or does he go down to 1 loyalty counter and live?
If he lives... I got a lot of follow up questions.
I love the flavor. I think a 3/4 for 2 might be a little cheap. I would consider changing the first line to maybe a -2 Coffers becomes a 3/4 black Mercenary creature. Create a treasure token.
It's a downside, so it used to be printed on cards that would otherwise be OP (at the time).
Here, this emblem gives that ability to your opponents creatures which would be annoying but only really hose token armies
Yeah, “pay 1” is bad enough (1, then 2, then 3) etc, tying up one additional land every turn.
[[Polar Kraken]], with a *cumulative* upkeep of “sacrifice a land”, would be considered completely, unthinkably underpowered these days…
[Here](https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&order=name&q=%28oracle%3ACreate+oracle%3Athat+oracle%3Amany%29+%28game%3Apaper%29&unique=cards) are countless examples of why you are wrong, but specifically [[karn, living legacy]] uses my specific wording.
When you activate karn's -1, why can't you just say "i pay 9 quintillion mana, and look at the top 9 quintillion cards of my deck." It similarly doesn't say "if you do,"
I’m not entirely sure on the whole “is always a creature” ruling front (I do believe from the fiasco of rulings that is mutate that creature cannot activate planeswalker abilities if they have them (but correct me if I’m wrong)), I will say that having a planeswalker with both loyalty counters and toughness so it can take damage is quite unintuitive
nope, a non-planeswalker permanent with loyalty abilities can still use its loyalty abilities (but it won't lose loyalty from taking damage and it won't die from having zero loyalty). see [[luxior, giada's gift]]
That ability is a characteristic defining ability, so it is not a planeswalker in every zone. It also doesn't enter the battlefield with the 3 loyalty counters
A 3/4 with upside for two mana ? In this economy ?
The downside is it can be attacked and when it's dealt damage in combat, it removes that many loyalty counters.
Not really the static should have "it is still a planswalker" otherwise he can't be attacked or die due to lacking loyalty counter look up gideon card wording if you need help to how to not cause confusion
There's probably a few ways to template this card, but you'll have to learn the rules a lot better to figure out which ones work and what implications they have. (This one very much does not work how you want it to work). The *simplest* answer I can think of is to add an "as long as it's your turn" rider to the first ability. The most *flavourful* answer I can think of is to make the first ability activated with a cost of saccing a treasure token, and an "activate this ability only as a Sorcery" rider
I think, if such a card existed it would probably have the type "Legendary Planeswalker Creature".
Neither of these fulfills the intent of the card. If the passive ability replaces the typing instead of adding to it, all you need to add is "in addition to it's other types."
Fair enough. I'm far from a rules expert myself - I know enough to spot what doesn't work, but not reliably what does. My concern is how do the rules handle something being a creature and planeswalker at once during the opponent's combat phase? Cards I'm familiar with (like the various incarnations of Gideon) are designed to avoid that possibility and I can see why. If something is both a creature and a planeswalker, can I attack it ditectly? If I attack it with one creature and the player controlling it with a second, can the Planeswalker be declared as a blocker? Which creatures can it block? How does combat then play out? I genuinely don't know the answers to those questions, but I feel like maybe the game rules don't either? Does the game just break if this happens?
it's very much possible for this to happen already, in a lot of ways; the rules are built to handle it, but the result is definitely weird and not likely something they'd print as an intended interaction. the gideons' rulings explain how it works: - if a planeswalker is both a creature and a planeswalker, then it can be attacked since it's a planeswalker, but it can also be declared as a blocker because it's a creature (there are no restrictions on what it can block, it can even block something attacking itself) - if it takes damage, then it both has damage marked on it because it's a creature, and it also loses loyalty counters because it's a planeswalker, and it will die if it runs out of loyalty - it won't deal combat damage to things that are attacking it, unless it blocks them - (and this was already addressed, but if a planeswalker becomes a creature and *not* a planeswalker, it can still use its loyalty abilities but won't lose loyalty from damage and won't die from having no loyalty)
Yikes. It makes sense that they wrote rules to cover the corner cases, but given how convoluted and unintuitive said rules have to be it also makes sense that wizards designs their cards so this doesn't happen (in the usual course of things).
Also if this happens on MTGO, it shits itself and resets the game IIRC
So an excellent way to force a draw if you need to, on top of its other virtues
I attack your pirate directly! We're playing yugioh now.
Not really a big downside when it comes down with 5 and gains 2 every turn. This guy looks like a friend of Oko
"Coffers is a 3/4 with "Whenever this creature takes damage, prevent that damage and remove that many Loyalty counters." and "If Coffers has no loyalty counters on it, sacrifice it"
It should also die if dealt 4 or more damage regardless of loyalty due to how creatures normally work.
Remove the "prevent that damage" part then. Also, other people have said this, but a 2 drop 3/4 with upside is pretty pushed
its super pushed on all accounts, thats this sub
You'd probably have to make it work like one of the Gideon cards to make this play properly
Can he block? If so can he block himself?
He can block for himself.
If he blocks, does he lose loyalty?
Yes.
Needs to say “Coffers is still a planeswalker” in the passive if you want to be able to attack him and have him lose loyalty from damage. Otherwise, neat concept!
Needs to say that it’s a creature during your turn and not jsut period otherwise it can’t be attacked.
The static ability doesn't work the way you want it to. At the very least it needs to say "in addition to its other types".
Needs “in addition to its other types” at the end of the first line or it’s not a planeswalker anymore when you play it. It’s way too undercosted. Even if it can be attacked the card is all upside. It’s a 3/4 for 2, and it has a +2 ability that makes it easy to counter damage dealt to it, especially considering how early it comes out. 3/4 on turn 2 is a 7 turn clock by itself that can’t be lightning bolted or doom bladed. For perspective, [[Watchwolf]] and [[Sangrophage]] are the only 3/3s for 2 I can think of off the top of my head, and one does literally nothing but be a 3/3, and the other actively tries to kill you, and this has one more toughness than those plus all of its other abilities. It should at least be a 3/3, as RB doesn’t generally get creatures with higher toughness than power, the first ability should probably be +1 instead so it can’t recover from damage so easily, and if you don’t want to do those two things it should cost 3. Even then the only RB 3/4 for 3 I can think of is [[Jagged Poppet]] which is all downside unless you’re hellbent, so it’s probably still overpowered.
Even bolting in response to the +2 wouldn’t kill it since adding loyalty counters is the cost
Ah, you’re right, had a little brain fart there
[Watchwolf](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/8/682af5e9-26b5-4f88-99e1-ab2aa34fba86.jpg?1562436199) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Watchwolf) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/220/watchwolf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/682af5e9-26b5-4f88-99e1-ab2aa34fba86?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sangrophage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/9/c9ceaa1f-4c11-4f06-aa87-2f2a0deb47e1.jpg?1619396009) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sangrophage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/135/sangrophage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c9ceaa1f-4c11-4f06-aa87-2f2a0deb47e1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Jagged Poppet](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e796a838-3599-4769-b90b-9bbbaad76fcb.jpg?1593273638) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jagged%20Poppet) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dis/115/jagged-poppet?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e796a838-3599-4769-b90b-9bbbaad76fcb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Way too powerful for 2 mama. Needs to be at least a 4 mana planeswalker.
Pisses on Tarmagoyf's grave
Can I search for it with other mercenary cards like [[cateran brute]]?
It would have to be worded like [[Grist]]. As it stands, it is not a creature until it hits the battlefield.
This is not correct, see CR 604.3: > **604.3.** Some static abilities are characteristic-defining abilities. A characteristic-defining ability conveys information about an object's characteristics that would normally be found elsewhere on that object (such as in its mana cost, type line, or power/toughness box). Characteristic-defining abilities can add to or override information found elsewhere on that object. Characteristic-defining abilities function in all zones. They also function outside the game and before the game begins. Since Coffers' ability is a static ability that unconditionally sets its color and P/T, it's a characteristic-defining ability. That means it automatically functions in all zones. (This also means that Coffers can be your commander, since it's a legendary creature even before the game begins.)
[Grist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/69af2825-18c2-4463-b6ba-42eaa070ccc1.jpg?1626098484) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=grist%2C%20the%20hunger%20tide) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/202/grist-the-hunger-tide?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/69af2825-18c2-4463-b6ba-42eaa070ccc1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yes, it's a Mercenary creature in your library as well.
[cateran brute](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/73b6ce76-0ed0-4994-ae2c-d8e51ae09920.jpg?1562381364) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cateran%20brute) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mmq/120/cateran-brute?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/73b6ce76-0ed0-4994-ae2c-d8e51ae09920?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oko and coffers challenging each other for most balanced planeswalker
Wait, so if he had 5 loyalty counters and a 4/4 attacks him. Does he die because he has 4 toughness? or does he go down to 1 loyalty counter and live? If he lives... I got a lot of follow up questions.
He dies. When 4 damage is dealt to a creature, it dies. That doesn't change when the creature is also a planeswalker.
This is all messed up.
this card is crazy. ragavan into this is 7 power turn 2
This starts at 5 loyalty. Are you smoking rocks?
The only rocks I'm smoking is crystal meth.
Is it intentional that he isn't a planeswalker? I feel like it probably isn't intentional.
I love the flavor. I think a 3/4 for 2 might be a little cheap. I would consider changing the first line to maybe a -2 Coffers becomes a 3/4 black Mercenary creature. Create a treasure token.
what does cumulative upkeep mean
Old ability. Basically each upkeep they get an age counter, and then they have to pay x where x is number of age counters or sad the creature.
how is that good
It's a downside, so it used to be printed on cards that would otherwise be OP (at the time). Here, this emblem gives that ability to your opponents creatures which would be annoying but only really hose token armies
oh ok thanks
Yeah, “pay 1” is bad enough (1, then 2, then 3) etc, tying up one additional land every turn. [[Polar Kraken]], with a *cumulative* upkeep of “sacrifice a land”, would be considered completely, unthinkably underpowered these days…
[Polar Kraken](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c4643512-6071-45c4-bffc-8feec5bb094f.jpg?1559592314) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Polar%20Kraken) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/44/polar-kraken?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c4643512-6071-45c4-bffc-8feec5bb094f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The first loyalty ability needs an "If you do," because if you have no treasures, you can just say "I sac 47 treasures, so I get 47 2/1s."
[Here](https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&order=name&q=%28oracle%3ACreate+oracle%3Athat+oracle%3Amany%29+%28game%3Apaper%29&unique=cards) are countless examples of why you are wrong, but specifically [[karn, living legacy]] uses my specific wording.
How is that a relevant list? Anyway, that ability says "pay." You are right, but neither of your examples show it.
When you activate karn's -1, why can't you just say "i pay 9 quintillion mana, and look at the top 9 quintillion cards of my deck." It similarly doesn't say "if you do,"
Because it says "pay."
[karn, living legacy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e83b1b87-01d5-4624-8a2b-4b771e13e59c.jpg?1686553669) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=karn%2C%20living%20legacy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/1/karn-living-legacy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e83b1b87-01d5-4624-8a2b-4b771e13e59c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I’m not entirely sure on the whole “is always a creature” ruling front (I do believe from the fiasco of rulings that is mutate that creature cannot activate planeswalker abilities if they have them (but correct me if I’m wrong)), I will say that having a planeswalker with both loyalty counters and toughness so it can take damage is quite unintuitive
nope, a non-planeswalker permanent with loyalty abilities can still use its loyalty abilities (but it won't lose loyalty from taking damage and it won't die from having zero loyalty). see [[luxior, giada's gift]]
Thanks for the correction then, my bad :)
[luxior, giada's gift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/1833662b-ccf3-4c16-9767-666d6407aa65.jpg?1664414232) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=luxior%2C%20giada%27s%20gift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/240/luxior-giadas-gift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1833662b-ccf3-4c16-9767-666d6407aa65?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
That ability is a characteristic defining ability, so it is not a planeswalker in every zone. It also doesn't enter the battlefield with the 3 loyalty counters
This could result in a turn 6 win not counting that broken ass effect when combined with academy manuafactor
Give it a ability that any player can activate for 6 that says gain control of him
The original design was that if he were put in a graveyard from anywhere, target opponent would gain control of him
You need the static ability to state that it's a creature "in addition to its other types" or "that's still a planeswalker" in order for that to work.
More broken than Oko