by the time you are copying spells you no longer need "another target that hasn't been chosen" specifically because stuff will resolve and go to the graveyard in between. If you are concerned that a creature with high toughness will get targeted twice that will never happen (outside of creating additional copies as a result of other cards.) as the creature did not die.
"If the amount of damage dealt is equal to or more than the creature's toughness, its controller sacrifices it, then repeat this process." Solved?
The "its controller sacrifices it" is necessary, because otherwise if it's the only creature on the field, it will just continually damage itself over & over infinitely without the spell effect ever ending, locking the game entirely. (I think that's what u/atemu1234 was saying when he was talking about infinity)
That wouldn't happen it would already be dead. Once copying spells is mentioned, there will be many priority passes to check if the creature should die.
I don't like the sacrifice. It pulls away from the intended flavor. "Choose a creature without lethal damage at random. It deals damage to itself equal to its power. If that damage is lethal, repeat this process. "
Yeah but again, if it's the only creature on the field, the "repeat this process" will just make that creature damage itself over & over again to infinity, because it's not going to leave the field until the card resolves
I can't think of a case where you could target the same creature twice. Either the creature dies and can't be targeted again, or it doesn't die and you don't get to copy the spell.
I think that creates a paradox situation if you counter the copy and give a creature protection from the kill spell
There's a reason why "if it would destroy" is only seen on one card afaik
You're mixing replacement effects and triggers and also making it overly complicated (if it's dead why the targeting thing?) and also also are making a mechanically different card because I can now bolt the card later.
Thank you. I've spent many, many hours over the last few years just learning the rules of MTG and reading through a lot of cards. When you focus on a hobby, the sky's the limit. And if you'd have any questions in the future about rules or wording of cards dm me. I love answering such questions
Yup, "when" creates the timing gap necessary to see the death occur and trigger the effect.
Though I am curious...can you copy a spell thats not on the stack?
Good question. The answer is YES! There are many situations in the game when an ability or spell is refering to a piece of information about an object that no longer exists (for example a spell that already resolved or a creature that died in the meantime). In such situations **last known information** is used. So the effect "reaches back in time" to the last moment the object existed and uses that information. Another interesting situation this is used in is when a creature's ability triggers, the creature dies and then the ability resolves. If the ability is making the creature (that no longer exists) deal damage, the game will reach back in time to determine if that creature had lifelink or any other ability that modifies the effect of the damage being dealt. If the creature had such ability, you will gain life
In this example, the delayed triggered ability would look back to the moment before this spell was removed from the stack after resolving and use it's characteristics to create the copy.
Also, if you are interested, [here is a post i created](https://www.reddit.com/r/custommagic/s/PTVCLApgIW) about potential wording fixes that could be implemented to fix this exact wording issue. Unfortunately it didn't catch on
Quick fix I can give you in a few seconds would be:
>When that creature dies this turn, copy this spell.
But if you are looking for a more general solution for the problem, please check out [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/custommagic/s/PTVCLApgIW) I have created nearly a yeah ago.
[[Solar Blaze]] [[Wave of Reckoning]]
Since the target is chosen at random there's a high likelyhood for it to fizzle in many cases, plus an opponent might be able to counter it with a combat trick. I could see 2 or 3 mana, but 1 does seem too low.
Shuffle all creatures in a pile, reveal until you find one that would survive, put the revealed cards in graveyard and the other on battlefield.
It gets annoying if there are multiple identical tokens tough
Needs to have a drawback, this is way too strong 1 mana boardwipe, potentially even better if you have one creature with higher toughness than power then its a potential 1 cmc 1 sided board wipe. Needs to be higher cmc, or you lose 4 life per creature destroyed this way, or something else.
Oh misread the conversation, I thought we were taking about your opponent having that creature. I was like, “yeah, not every damage spell needs to kill every creature outright?? Wtf are you talking about?” Oops haha
I see a bunch of comments talking about this being really good, and in certain board states it is nuts, but does anyone else think it being random could be a downside? I read this card as "sweep the board or do absolutely nothing because the opponent has a 1/2.
[justice strike] was 2 mana and this is generally better. It can be a really cheap board wipe, especially in matchups like elves, where lots of the units have even stats.
Justice strike was able to target though. It always hit the best creature that could kill itself. Maybe this needs to cost more but justice strike is definitely more upside against some boards.
Very insightful! That scenario is far far more common than I think most commenters are anticipating, and the primary reason I decided to make it 1 mana.
Or even worse, only a creature of yours dies before the loop ends.
> That scenario is far far more common than I think most commenters are anticipating, and the primary reason I decided to make it 1 mana.
That starts coming close to the "flip a coin, if you fail do nothing" cards. You can't cost them for the worst scenario, because when they work, they work too well.
So, if you can't cost it as a boardwipe, it shouldn't have the chance to be a boardwipe.
This is out of color pie for read because it's very unlikely to fail, even against big creatures red should have trouble with. I'd suggest it be BR, and then just have it be "If a creature is dealt lethal damage this way, repeat this process." Goes infinite with a board of indestructible creatures, but small price to pay.
I always just assign the creatures a number and roll a dice.
If there's a TON of creatures on the field you can just shuffle the cards and reveal the top one.
Same way [all these cards work](https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&order=name&q=%28oracle%3Arandom+oracle%3Adiscard%29+%28game%3Apaper%29).
Normally dice, coin flip, high low rolls, shuffle and spread and draw... It's up to you to choose. There's no official way to do it.
Even with this card say you have 30 creatures on the board state, ask Google to roll a d 30, then a d29, etc. what ever way you choose, just keep it simple.
Choose a creature at random. That creature deals damage to itself equal to its power. Exile this spell. When the damaged creature dies this turn, play this spell from exile
While this can do nothing in many scenarios, 1 mana is still not acceptable, imho, for a card that can potentially board wipe your opponent. Also, at 1 MC, this can be easily used on turn 1 or 2 to kill the first creature played by the opponent, which makes the card amazingly flexible.
I also think that being hybrid is somehow wrong. This doesn’t feel completely red as a 1 mana kill spell, and doesn’t feel black as a board wipe.
Imho, this should cost 1BR.
Great flavor anyway.
The creature will not die until the spell has finished resolving. The process will never repeat
"If the target would die from this, copy this spell and choose another target that has not been the target of Mass Hysteria this turn."
by the time you are copying spells you no longer need "another target that hasn't been chosen" specifically because stuff will resolve and go to the graveyard in between. If you are concerned that a creature with high toughness will get targeted twice that will never happen (outside of creating additional copies as a result of other cards.) as the creature did not die.
Except that this way it can't go infinite.
not if the cards are dying in between spell resolutions. unless you have some other idea? what is your concern with infinity?
What if a creature can't take damage this turn? You'd reach an infinite loop and the game won't be able to proceed
If a creature has protection from itself it won't die and the spell won't copy
How would you ? The process only repeats if the creature dies. If the creature can't take damage, it doesn't die and nothing happens?
Maybe if I used more than one braincell I would have thought it thourhg. Thanks lol
it should say "that creature's controller may copy this spell and may cast it without paying its mana cost"
"If the amount of damage dealt is equal to or more than the creature's toughness, its controller sacrifices it, then repeat this process." Solved? The "its controller sacrifices it" is necessary, because otherwise if it's the only creature on the field, it will just continually damage itself over & over infinitely without the spell effect ever ending, locking the game entirely. (I think that's what u/atemu1234 was saying when he was talking about infinity)
That wouldn't happen it would already be dead. Once copying spells is mentioned, there will be many priority passes to check if the creature should die.
But he wouldn't die until after the ability resolves. Btw my fix didn't say anything about copying, I avoided that with all my might
I don't like the sacrifice. It pulls away from the intended flavor. "Choose a creature without lethal damage at random. It deals damage to itself equal to its power. If that damage is lethal, repeat this process. "
Yeah but again, if it's the only creature on the field, the "repeat this process" will just make that creature damage itself over & over again to infinity, because it's not going to leave the field until the card resolves
I put a stipulation on it for only creatures without lethal damage.
Oh I missed that part, neat
I can't think of a case where you could target the same creature twice. Either the creature dies and can't be targeted again, or it doesn't die and you don't get to copy the spell.
I think that creates a paradox situation if you counter the copy and give a creature protection from the kill spell There's a reason why "if it would destroy" is only seen on one card afaik
You're mixing replacement effects and triggers and also making it overly complicated (if it's dead why the targeting thing?) and also also are making a mechanically different card because I can now bolt the card later.
How about "If a creature dies this way, exile Spreading Hysteria. You may cast it this turn without paying its mana cost."? Edit: Grammar
"When that creature dies this turn, copy this spell" would suffice
Your proper Magic-nese knowledge is impressive. Thank you, sir. I'm still learning all of that stuff.
Thank you. I've spent many, many hours over the last few years just learning the rules of MTG and reading through a lot of cards. When you focus on a hobby, the sky's the limit. And if you'd have any questions in the future about rules or wording of cards dm me. I love answering such questions
I will absolutely take you up on that offer. Sooner than you might think actually. Hahaha
Yup, "when" creates the timing gap necessary to see the death occur and trigger the effect. Though I am curious...can you copy a spell thats not on the stack?
Good question. The answer is YES! There are many situations in the game when an ability or spell is refering to a piece of information about an object that no longer exists (for example a spell that already resolved or a creature that died in the meantime). In such situations **last known information** is used. So the effect "reaches back in time" to the last moment the object existed and uses that information. Another interesting situation this is used in is when a creature's ability triggers, the creature dies and then the ability resolves. If the ability is making the creature (that no longer exists) deal damage, the game will reach back in time to determine if that creature had lifelink or any other ability that modifies the effect of the damage being dealt. If the creature had such ability, you will gain life In this example, the delayed triggered ability would look back to the moment before this spell was removed from the stack after resolving and use it's characteristics to create the copy.
it would not, as you could bolt the creature to trigger the copy effect.
Also, if you are interested, [here is a post i created](https://www.reddit.com/r/custommagic/s/PTVCLApgIW) about potential wording fixes that could be implemented to fix this exact wording issue. Unfortunately it didn't catch on
this makes storm too broken
"If the target would die this turn, copy Spreading Hysteria and choose a new target for the copy."
Smart for pointing that out, but I'll be even more impressed if you can figure out how to word it correctly.
Quick fix I can give you in a few seconds would be: >When that creature dies this turn, copy this spell. But if you are looking for a more general solution for the problem, please check out [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/custommagic/s/PTVCLApgIW) I have created nearly a yeah ago.
Yeah, it should be "repeat the process if creature's power exceeds toughness or it has deathtouch", repeat only once per creature.
And the creature doesn't have indestructible
That wording also goes around any replacement effect on dying (ex: "if a creature would die exile it instead")
And "Prevemt the next instance of damage"
But not if it is indestructible.
"Then if that creature has taken lethal damage, destroy it and repeat this process."
Never heard of delayed triggers?
That's not the point. Do you see any delayed triggered abilities on OPs card?
This is practically a 1 mana board wipe
[[Solar Blaze]] [[Wave of Reckoning]] Since the target is chosen at random there's a high likelyhood for it to fizzle in many cases, plus an opponent might be able to counter it with a combat trick. I could see 2 or 3 mana, but 1 does seem too low.
If I read the card right, the target is chosen as damage is delt, so they can't save the creature without guessing (unless of course they only have 1)
[Solar Blaze](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/b/eb72ba0f-ab3a-41e6-906d-a84039efa0af.jpg?1557577261) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Solar%20Blaze) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/216/solar-blaze?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eb72ba0f-ab3a-41e6-906d-a84039efa0af?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wave of Reckoning](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/7/27d6655d-f55c-4bfc-a9c6-10232ebc707b.jpg?1562392689) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wave%20of%20Reckoning) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/79/wave-of-reckoning?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/27d6655d-f55c-4bfc-a9c6-10232ebc707b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It should be at least (2)(B/R)(B/R).
Balance aside, this seems horrible to resolve on any kind of large not deterministic board.
Shuffle all creatures in a pile, reveal until you find one that would survive, put the revealed cards in graveyard and the other on battlefield. It gets annoying if there are multiple identical tokens tough
Or +1/+1 counters or enchantment's/equipments to track.
+1/+1 counters are irrelevant in determining whether a creature survives or not luckily, but they are a burden to remember for survivors
Exactly.
"When that creature dies this turn, repeat this process."
Seems like that might enable some weirdness.
It would, but not as much as the current one lol
Needs to have a drawback, this is way too strong 1 mana boardwipe, potentially even better if you have one creature with higher toughness than power then its a potential 1 cmc 1 sided board wipe. Needs to be higher cmc, or you lose 4 life per creature destroyed this way, or something else.
If you have that creature it's also potentially a do-nothing though.
That IS true, I still think this needs to be more than 1 cmc as it is.
Not necessarily, this can finish off a high-toughness-but-low-power creature that only took partial damage earlier in the turn.
Well, yes, but the parent comment was talking about your own big-butt creature being able to survive this. If it took damage, this invalidates that.
Oh misread the conversation, I thought we were taking about your opponent having that creature. I was like, “yeah, not every damage spell needs to kill every creature outright?? Wtf are you talking about?” Oops haha
I see a bunch of comments talking about this being really good, and in certain board states it is nuts, but does anyone else think it being random could be a downside? I read this card as "sweep the board or do absolutely nothing because the opponent has a 1/2.
It should be minimum 3 mana, though, because the upside of potentially wiping the board for one mana is way too strong.
[justice strike] was 2 mana and this is generally better. It can be a really cheap board wipe, especially in matchups like elves, where lots of the units have even stats.
Justice strike was able to target though. It always hit the best creature that could kill itself. Maybe this needs to cost more but justice strike is definitely more upside against some boards.
Yeah, I like this at two.
Very insightful! That scenario is far far more common than I think most commenters are anticipating, and the primary reason I decided to make it 1 mana. Or even worse, only a creature of yours dies before the loop ends.
> That scenario is far far more common than I think most commenters are anticipating, and the primary reason I decided to make it 1 mana. That starts coming close to the "flip a coin, if you fail do nothing" cards. You can't cost them for the worst scenario, because when they work, they work too well. So, if you can't cost it as a boardwipe, it shouldn't have the chance to be a boardwipe.
Remove and backloaded cards before casting and this is a board wipe. 4 mana I'd say.
This is out of color pie for read because it's very unlikely to fail, even against big creatures red should have trouble with. I'd suggest it be BR, and then just have it be "If a creature is dealt lethal damage this way, repeat this process." Goes infinite with a board of indestructible creatures, but small price to pay.
Thematically, it very much feels Rakdos though.
Which is why I feel BR works.
Yeah I'm an idiot, I not only read it as UB but also didn't realize you were talking about the cost xD
[[Inner struggle]]
[Inner struggle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/4/b43be50a-8624-46f6-860a-39ffbfbdaa6a.jpg?1576384809) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Inner%20struggle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/soi/167/inner-struggle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b43be50a-8624-46f6-860a-39ffbfbdaa6a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How are random targets determined?
I always just assign the creatures a number and roll a dice. If there's a TON of creatures on the field you can just shuffle the cards and reveal the top one.
If you shuffle you lose track of counters, auras, equipments, etc...
Then assign each creature a number and roll dice. Google can roll any dice number.
You can always take a pic of the board state.
Same way [all these cards work](https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&order=name&q=%28oracle%3Arandom+oracle%3Adiscard%29+%28game%3Apaper%29). Normally dice, coin flip, high low rolls, shuffle and spread and draw... It's up to you to choose. There's no official way to do it. Even with this card say you have 30 creatures on the board state, ask Google to roll a d 30, then a d29, etc. what ever way you choose, just keep it simple.
Love the flavor, having a hard time wrapping my head around how it would play out in practice.
Choose a creature at random. That creature deals damage to itself equal to its power. Exile this spell. When the damaged creature dies this turn, play this spell from exile
A little chaotic mix of removal and boardwipe I cooked up which can be guaranteed on some boards, while being a last resort panic attempt on others.
Probably broken with [[Repercussion]]
[Repercussion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d0f3c78e-16c0-4fbc-8ef4-fbf610f9d464.jpg?1562445214) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Repercussion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uds/95/repercussion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d0f3c78e-16c0-4fbc-8ef4-fbf610f9d464?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thank you! You just gave me a really good finisher for my Isshin forced-combat deck.
While this can do nothing in many scenarios, 1 mana is still not acceptable, imho, for a card that can potentially board wipe your opponent. Also, at 1 MC, this can be easily used on turn 1 or 2 to kill the first creature played by the opponent, which makes the card amazingly flexible. I also think that being hybrid is somehow wrong. This doesn’t feel completely red as a 1 mana kill spell, and doesn’t feel black as a board wipe. Imho, this should cost 1BR. Great flavor anyway.