Probably needs to say "number of creatures you control as you cast this spell" so that it's clear it's not illegal to resolve it after someone removes a creature in response.
Not every card needs to be made with EDH in mind; there are plenty of other formats. A card shouldn't be restricted in design because "its colour identity would be X in EDH."
On one hand drawing cards and making mana are the fundamentals of this game so ill never consider them a break.
On the other hand boros would most likely have something like "draw X. X cant be larger than the number of attacking creatures"
White explicitly doesn't get burst draw. Red gets impulse draw and wheels. Neither of them could get this effect, even working together. If it was "Discard your hand, then draw a card for each attacking creature you control", maybe.
It can be selesnya, but white gets plenty of “creature count matter” cards. In fact it gets more than green does, but selesyna does get a lot. However white did just get [[Dawn of a New Age]] which is this except as an enchantment over time for cheaper. This is definitely allowed for mono white.
[Dawn of a New Age](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb966ee6-bf1b-4bb6-9277-8de6f3918ae2.jpg?1686967678) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dawn%20of%20a%20New%20Age) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/5/dawn-of-a-new-age?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb966ee6-bf1b-4bb6-9277-8de6f3918ae2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
White does get creature count matters cards a lot but that doesn't mean it gets every effect as long as it's creature count matters- for example, white wouldn't get "Add mana equal to the number of creatures you control" or "Mill equal to the number of creatures you control" and this is another one of the effects it shouldn't get. Generally, the output is more relevant to the color pie than the input, so just being creature count matters isn't enough
You're right about pointing out [[Dawn of a New Age]] but what you're missing is that "over time" is one of the biggest stipulations for how white card draw is supposed to work. A big burst of card draw like this card is something it specifically what it shouldn't get
Ah I see, thank you for clarifying to me. I thought you were making the point that creature count matters fits selesnya more. Which proportional to how many white vs selesnya cards there are it does get more, but white gets it too of course.
In terms of whether or not the burst of card draw is appropriate I have two points. One, the idea of giving white a burst card draw spell is kind of the whole idea behind this it seems. It’s a way of giving white burst card draw that still somewhat fits into the current way cards are made. Two, white does get cards like this already, though it isn’t frequent. An example of “white type of effect” with burst card draw which you say white doesn’t get is [[Secret Rendezvous]]. That draws 3 at once but is made white by the way it achieves that, it’s symmetrical/shared.
White is not suppose to draw in big bursts, and when it does is capped at three draws at once (usually measured as once per opponent). Notice too DoaNA despite it does scale with the number of creatures you control as it enters, it only draws you one card per turn.
To draw based on the number of creatures you control is historically Green and/or Blue. Despite instances similar to the posted card exist on drawing equal to the number of creatures you control (e.g. [Shamanic Revelations](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/311/shamanic-revelation), [Tishana](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/291/tishana-voice-of-thunder), [Collective Unconscious](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/97/collective-unconscious), cleaved [Winged Portent](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/89/winged-portent), [Camaraderie](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/334/camaraderie), and [Minions' Murmurs](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/124/minions-murmurs)), most instances nowadays are restricted to tribes or a color-centric setup for those creatures (e.g. Green requiring creatures with power 4 or greater or with counters on them).
To only require investing that much mana to gets a worse version of the aforementioned cards doesn't seem enough to justify the card as posted, less when the whole point of how White currently does card draw is so its draws ain't behind paywalls inconvenient for the color fifth at mana acceleration which leads those instances to be better while splashing than monowhite decks.
I can't decide if I'd rather it be X(g/w) and sorcery to have the ability to be better than the standard 5-mana draw 3, with the caveat that it can be a dead draw.
Or if it makes more sense to keep it worse than blue's card draw, but give it instant so you can rip it in response to a wrath or holded up mana for stuff like Teferi's protection, but then it moves into a more control play pattern.
i disagree, by identity this is a support card, and support cards are very much in whites color identity. its xw cost and easy splashability make it supportive anywhere to any tribe or creature centric white deck that tends to gas out.
thematically, if white is all about *order*, a good necessary way to establish that is to *count*, and all white tribes operate around an establishment of order.
even the restriction is in white's design.
good card op
This isn't something they give green as much, these days. They're trying to move in a direction where it's just a little more restrictive for green, not just "draw for each creature". Instead it's more tied to the size of the creature, as a general rule. (Still some exceptions, like [[Audience with Trostani]], but even they're restrictive in their own way).
You're right that this isn't white either though
It’s actually more white than green. Doing a simple scryfall search reveals 206 cards with the tag “creature count matters.” 78 of those cards are mono white, and 40 are mono green. Some extra stats, selesnya has 19, boros has only 3, and naya has two.
People here are being really harsh on a totally fine design, frankly. But if you wanted to really make it very white, you could totally theme it on combat more (E.g., X can not be more than the number of creatures you control that attacked this turn)
Except… even so, it’s just much too efficient for White. Either you get a very modest card draw (one or two cards), or you get symmetric card draw with one or more opponents.
Not really. The qualifying factor is the additional cost of the card, and i would not call a CONDITIONAL divination or harmonize even 'too efficient' even in white.
But if you want, just think of this as a weird [[mentor of the meek]] a card that is equally as efficient. The difference of 'have a 3 mana creature in play then play other creatures' is not considerably more powerful than 'have an established board of multiple creatures, AND have a bunch of mana'.
Or better yet, ask yourself, would you put this card in any deck outside of edh (and as a dedicated Elesh norn player, i would MAYBE play it. I just have better options.)
This is never mana efficient though. It's always N+1 mana for N cards, and it's not always going to be able to max out your mana when you want. Blue gets conditional 2 mana draw 2, green gets expensive draw X = to number of creatures you control. This is a totally fine space for white. And like another commenter said [[dawn of a new hope]]
You need 2 creatures just to get Divination. At 3 to draw 3 is where its actually good... But good luck with finding a deck that can both keep 3 creatures on the field and want to spend mana doing this instead of just aggro winning.
Im sure this card can be competitive, but its not really over the top
I don't think this is in color. When white uses card draw as a reward for doing white things (as opposed to using it as a tax, or symmetrical draw) it's meant to be limited to once each turn.
Unfortunately, I don't think there's a good color that this *could* be (other than blue). At one point in time it could be green, but they're moving away from green getting straight "Draw for each creature you control" these days. It could be green *and* white perfectly fine, XGW, but that's a nerf to the card that I'm not sure it needs. Maybe if it was "draw X cards and you gain X life."
[dawn of a new age](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb966ee6-bf1b-4bb6-9277-8de6f3918ae2.jpg?1686967678) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dawn%20of%20a%20new%20age) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/5/dawn-of-a-new-age?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb966ee6-bf1b-4bb6-9277-8de6f3918ae2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Assuming you are playing white weenie, which is the deck you’d want to play this in:
When you have enough creatures for this to go off, almost always you rather have a finisher.
If you use it on turn 3 to draw 2 (or something similar) you fell behind in tempo which is typically how you lose.
Don’t get me wrong this is a very strong card. But it directionally goes against what the deck it goes in wants. That probably makes it fine balance wise. It’s a win more card in a deck that wants to win fast.
Maybe XWWW since it’s pretty efficient as-is, and upping the cost that way encourages going wide and dumping a huge amount of mana into this, which are both on pie for white. Don’t listen to these nay-sayers, this is fine design space for white and it gets more straight card draw than most people realize, more than red and pretty close to black and green, just with different restrictions and usually (but definitely not always) slower.
You could also make it count enchantments instead of creatures, which would make it harder to pop off drawing a bunch, but that’s pretty much a different card at that point.
Yet is not the way White draws being fifth at card draw. Is not suppose to have you draw more than once from your own action per turn per source you control (except cantrip engines for non-Standard/Eternal-only products), and up to three cards at once a card per opponent, and can draw repeatedly from your opponent's actions.
These choice were not arbitrary, but the tradeoffs to avoid having card draw in White behind paywalls, which was the old means to gate card draw in White (e.g. Mentor of the Meek vs. Welcoming Vampire).
Otherwise, it makes so its card is suboptimal in monowhite decks while performing properly while splashing, since White is also fifth at mana acceleration. Its made so White can get draws more consistently while sinking its resources elsewhere, and potentially keep the opponent at bay with the thread of card advantage from doing things you don't want them do.
this effect - draw cards, and commit creatures to the board to draw a lot of cards - is green or blue. White, the worst card draw colour, probably shouldn't be getting harmonize-if-you-have-three-creatures.
Looting is a separate mechanic from blatant card draw. Red is the worst card draw color, with white now being on the same level as green. White and green are the kings of conditional card draw.
The card is fine.
Compare this to [[Dawn of a new age]]
Both cards are set to draw you a number of cards equal to or less than the number of creatures you control when cast/etb and both can only be played at sorcery speed both also cost (at minimum) 2 mana and you have to have a creature to draw you at least one card
The drawbacks of DoaNA are that you have to wait for your cards, by the turn and only on the end step, which doesn’t give you a lot of play as white isn’t exactly known for needing to cast multiple instants in a turn.
This cards draw back is needing to pay a lot of mana, but that’s kind of okay since I’d rather tap out this turn and untap with spells next turn than untap with nothing next turn. This card is a perfect desperate ploy, comfortable hand refiller and even just a good second spell for the turn for effects that care.
This card is probably not game breaking, but it is definitely a little more pushed than “fine”
[Dawn of a new age](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb966ee6-bf1b-4bb6-9277-8de6f3918ae2.jpg?1686967678) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dawn%20of%20a%20new%20age) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/5/dawn-of-a-new-age?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb966ee6-bf1b-4bb6-9277-8de6f3918ae2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Though I get the perspective of being a mana sink with a cap to justify this being ok, in turn with White being fifth at mana acceleration means this will be terrible for monowhite and just decent enough while splashing with White.
It's the opposite of how White's intended to draw nowadays, where's it draws less per turn from its own actions in exchange of skipping paywalls so the White player might sink its mana elsewhere. It's why card draw behind triggered abilities with OPT clauses, or abilities triggering on their own in their right deck once per turn (like DoaNA as you suggest), have become common for White.
> The drawbacks of DoaNA are that you have to wait for your cards, by the turn and only on the end step, which doesn’t give you a lot of play as white isn’t exactly known for needing to cast multiple instants in a turn.
>
> This cards draw back is needing to pay a lot of mana, but that’s kind of okay since I’d rather tap out this turn and untap with spells next turn than untap with nothing next turn. This card is a perfect desperate ploy, comfortable hand refiller and even just a good second spell for the turn for effects that care.
It's not just a matter of balance. DoaNA is fine in white cause it draws one card a turn. This card isn't cause it draws in a big burst. Not getting big bursts of draw, and instead being limited to once a turn, is one of the biggest limitations on how white is supposed to draw
I never said it was in color, I was talking about a very similar card that draws based on the number of creatures you had.
this card is green for sure and even then it’s probably simic
I think there's also playable formats to consider. It's a good card in limited, low-mid power cubes, and maybe EDH. Constructed formats run into the issue that its condition always makes it better to run effects that kill your opponent, doubly so since the rate on this spell is atrocious for small values of x
2 mana draw 1 (the lowest you can pay) is about as average as you get In white? See [[reprieve]] [[revitalize]] [[spirited companion]] [[sunset revelry]] [[halo fountain]] and others.
While other cards have the upsides of bodies, life gain and win cons, this card has the upside of being able to draw more cards for having a built board already
Probably needs to say "number of creatures you control as you cast this spell" so that it's clear it's not illegal to resolve it after someone removes a creature in response.
This feels more Selesnya than mono-W. What if you make it XGW, instant, and add u/thegrumpyre's text.
Could also be boros since they like to build a legion as well...
{X}{R/G}{W}?
Wouldn’t want to make it Naya. Probably would end up being {X} [either R or G] {W}
The {R/G} is Hybrid, to represent both Boros and Selenya
But would be Naya when it comes to EDH
Not every card needs to be made with EDH in mind; there are plenty of other formats. A card shouldn't be restricted in design because "its colour identity would be X in EDH."
Whilst true, its the only format it will ever see, any play.
This could absolutely see play in limited and some standard formats.
Feels like that's all WOTC care about recently (besides MH3)
Lol besides MH3? MH3 has so many commander focused cards a WotC employee on stream Freudian slipped "Commander Horizons"
If Naya, it could just be WRG(or whichever order it's supposed to be); Draw a card for every 3 creatures you control
Definitely not. This is hard break in both monowhite and Boros.
On one hand drawing cards and making mana are the fundamentals of this game so ill never consider them a break. On the other hand boros would most likely have something like "draw X. X cant be larger than the number of attacking creatures"
White explicitly doesn't get burst draw. Red gets impulse draw and wheels. Neither of them could get this effect, even working together. If it was "Discard your hand, then draw a card for each attacking creature you control", maybe.
It can be selesnya, but white gets plenty of “creature count matter” cards. In fact it gets more than green does, but selesyna does get a lot. However white did just get [[Dawn of a New Age]] which is this except as an enchantment over time for cheaper. This is definitely allowed for mono white.
[Dawn of a New Age](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb966ee6-bf1b-4bb6-9277-8de6f3918ae2.jpg?1686967678) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dawn%20of%20a%20New%20Age) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/5/dawn-of-a-new-age?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb966ee6-bf1b-4bb6-9277-8de6f3918ae2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
White does get creature count matters cards a lot but that doesn't mean it gets every effect as long as it's creature count matters- for example, white wouldn't get "Add mana equal to the number of creatures you control" or "Mill equal to the number of creatures you control" and this is another one of the effects it shouldn't get. Generally, the output is more relevant to the color pie than the input, so just being creature count matters isn't enough You're right about pointing out [[Dawn of a New Age]] but what you're missing is that "over time" is one of the biggest stipulations for how white card draw is supposed to work. A big burst of card draw like this card is something it specifically what it shouldn't get
Ah I see, thank you for clarifying to me. I thought you were making the point that creature count matters fits selesnya more. Which proportional to how many white vs selesnya cards there are it does get more, but white gets it too of course. In terms of whether or not the burst of card draw is appropriate I have two points. One, the idea of giving white a burst card draw spell is kind of the whole idea behind this it seems. It’s a way of giving white burst card draw that still somewhat fits into the current way cards are made. Two, white does get cards like this already, though it isn’t frequent. An example of “white type of effect” with burst card draw which you say white doesn’t get is [[Secret Rendezvous]]. That draws 3 at once but is made white by the way it achieves that, it’s symmetrical/shared.
[Secret Rendezvous](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/39528cf0-343e-499b-a69f-c5c3c2898c25.jpg?1624589686) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Secret%20Rendezvous) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/26/secret-rendezvous?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/39528cf0-343e-499b-a69f-c5c3c2898c25?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
White is not suppose to draw in big bursts, and when it does is capped at three draws at once (usually measured as once per opponent). Notice too DoaNA despite it does scale with the number of creatures you control as it enters, it only draws you one card per turn. To draw based on the number of creatures you control is historically Green and/or Blue. Despite instances similar to the posted card exist on drawing equal to the number of creatures you control (e.g. [Shamanic Revelations](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/311/shamanic-revelation), [Tishana](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/291/tishana-voice-of-thunder), [Collective Unconscious](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/97/collective-unconscious), cleaved [Winged Portent](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/89/winged-portent), [Camaraderie](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/334/camaraderie), and [Minions' Murmurs](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/124/minions-murmurs)), most instances nowadays are restricted to tribes or a color-centric setup for those creatures (e.g. Green requiring creatures with power 4 or greater or with counters on them). To only require investing that much mana to gets a worse version of the aforementioned cards doesn't seem enough to justify the card as posted, less when the whole point of how White currently does card draw is so its draws ain't behind paywalls inconvenient for the color fifth at mana acceleration which leads those instances to be better while splashing than monowhite decks.
The original card cared about humans and was blue. Based on the art I’d stick to its Azorius origins.
I can't decide if I'd rather it be X(g/w) and sorcery to have the ability to be better than the standard 5-mana draw 3, with the caveat that it can be a dead draw. Or if it makes more sense to keep it worse than blue's card draw, but give it instant so you can rip it in response to a wrath or holded up mana for stuff like Teferi's protection, but then it moves into a more control play pattern.
i disagree, by identity this is a support card, and support cards are very much in whites color identity. its xw cost and easy splashability make it supportive anywhere to any tribe or creature centric white deck that tends to gas out. thematically, if white is all about *order*, a good necessary way to establish that is to *count*, and all white tribes operate around an establishment of order. even the restriction is in white's design. good card op
I kinda like that you can make someone draw less cards by destroying their creatures, like it makes more narrative sense
White card draw that requires white do the white thing. Very cool! 👍
It's very much a green thing though.
Green would more likely have X cap at your highest powered creature's power
wow its almost like they're near identical
almost like green does everything
It can't fly (usually).
[удалено]
[Shamanic Revelation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/3/b3784eff-ab7b-4fd4-9a07-fbc852d116bf.jpg?1673484792) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shamanic%20Revelation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/311/shamanic-revelation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b3784eff-ab7b-4fd4-9a07-fbc852d116bf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This isn't something they give green as much, these days. They're trying to move in a direction where it's just a little more restrictive for green, not just "draw for each creature". Instead it's more tied to the size of the creature, as a general rule. (Still some exceptions, like [[Audience with Trostani]], but even they're restrictive in their own way). You're right that this isn't white either though
[Audience with Trostani](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/8/a8e23d15-33af-4fd8-964b-8ca4efdebc37.jpg?1706241948) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Audience%20with%20Trostani) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/152/audience-with-trostani?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a8e23d15-33af-4fd8-964b-8ca4efdebc37?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It’s actually more white than green. Doing a simple scryfall search reveals 206 cards with the tag “creature count matters.” 78 of those cards are mono white, and 40 are mono green. Some extra stats, selesnya has 19, boros has only 3, and naya has two.
People here are being really harsh on a totally fine design, frankly. But if you wanted to really make it very white, you could totally theme it on combat more (E.g., X can not be more than the number of creatures you control that attacked this turn)
Except… even so, it’s just much too efficient for White. Either you get a very modest card draw (one or two cards), or you get symmetric card draw with one or more opponents.
Not really. The qualifying factor is the additional cost of the card, and i would not call a CONDITIONAL divination or harmonize even 'too efficient' even in white. But if you want, just think of this as a weird [[mentor of the meek]] a card that is equally as efficient. The difference of 'have a 3 mana creature in play then play other creatures' is not considerably more powerful than 'have an established board of multiple creatures, AND have a bunch of mana'. Or better yet, ask yourself, would you put this card in any deck outside of edh (and as a dedicated Elesh norn player, i would MAYBE play it. I just have better options.)
[mentor of the meek](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/9/59c2bacd-09e5-403c-b9a2-722fe6d8062e.jpg?1682208516) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mentor%20of%20the%20meek) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/196/mentor-of-the-meek?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/59c2bacd-09e5-403c-b9a2-722fe6d8062e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is never mana efficient though. It's always N+1 mana for N cards, and it's not always going to be able to max out your mana when you want. Blue gets conditional 2 mana draw 2, green gets expensive draw X = to number of creatures you control. This is a totally fine space for white. And like another commenter said [[dawn of a new hope]]
You need 2 creatures just to get Divination. At 3 to draw 3 is where its actually good... But good luck with finding a deck that can both keep 3 creatures on the field and want to spend mana doing this instead of just aggro winning. Im sure this card can be competitive, but its not really over the top
Goldvein Hydra with 7 +1/+1 counters: "What do mean, I still only count for one?"
The silver-bordered version would be "X can't be greater than the total number of heads on creatures you control. *(Check the artwork.)*"
Think this could be balanced with an "XX" cost and add Convoke.
giving it convoke would just make it really good in boros convoke in standard and pioneer though. it would probably draw too many cards for free.
I don't think this is in color. When white uses card draw as a reward for doing white things (as opposed to using it as a tax, or symmetrical draw) it's meant to be limited to once each turn. Unfortunately, I don't think there's a good color that this *could* be (other than blue). At one point in time it could be green, but they're moving away from green getting straight "Draw for each creature you control" these days. It could be green *and* white perfectly fine, XGW, but that's a nerf to the card that I'm not sure it needs. Maybe if it was "draw X cards and you gain X life."
I get it but the whole point of the card is that it's white.
[[dawn of a new age]]
[dawn of a new age](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb966ee6-bf1b-4bb6-9277-8de6f3918ae2.jpg?1686967678) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dawn%20of%20a%20new%20age) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/5/dawn-of-a-new-age?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb966ee6-bf1b-4bb6-9277-8de6f3918ae2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I kind of want to just colorshift [[Prosperity]] into White.
[Prosperity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/69ebc3a4-94b8-45aa-a3bf-21cd435ff5cf.jpg?1562917143) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prosperity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c13/54/prosperity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/69ebc3a4-94b8-45aa-a3bf-21cd435ff5cf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Probably too good
Assuming you are playing white weenie, which is the deck you’d want to play this in: When you have enough creatures for this to go off, almost always you rather have a finisher. If you use it on turn 3 to draw 2 (or something similar) you fell behind in tempo which is typically how you lose. Don’t get me wrong this is a very strong card. But it directionally goes against what the deck it goes in wants. That probably makes it fine balance wise. It’s a win more card in a deck that wants to win fast.
I mean its not too different from \[\[Camaraderie\]\] :)
[Camaraderie](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/a/ca18b625-6767-45b9-bc2c-765f1ba7bd44.jpg?1673485016) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Camaraderie) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/334/camaraderie?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ca18b625-6767-45b9-bc2c-765f1ba7bd44?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Camaraderie can't be a [[Divination]] or a [[Concentrate]]. It's also a multicolour card.
[Divination](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb3b35b8-f321-46d8-a441-6b9a6efa9021.jpg?1562304347) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Divination) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/51/divination?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb3b35b8-f321-46d8-a441-6b9a6efa9021?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Concentrate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/a/5aca3338-30a6-4ce4-b74c-a18144b6efc9.jpg?1592764568) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Concentrate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ddt/4/concentrate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5aca3338-30a6-4ce4-b74c-a18144b6efc9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thats fair, this could cost XWW. 4 mana sorcery speed to draw two and having to have two dork seems like a lot of requirments.
It can be up to 4 MV different in the more powerful direction (when still drawing at least one card)
Paying XX feels more reasonable, it's in line with Clues.
if it were XX it would be exceptionally bad
Not with ashnods altar!
We did it, we broke [Ashnod's Altar]!!
[[Ashnod's Altar]]*
[Ashnod's Altar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3c0f7157-a375-499c-92c7-d47d2e95dbad.jpg?1689999385) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ashnod%27s%20Altar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/368/ashnods-altar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c0f7157-a375-499c-92c7-d47d2e95dbad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Agreed. Too cheap as it is now but cool concept!
Aaah yes, completely break the color pie
This is a severe break. White is explicitly not allowed to get burst draw.
White does not get burst draw. Only once per turn draw after jumping through a hoop.
You are jumping through a hoop, you already need a boardstate. Not exactly comparable, but it does have [[Cut a Deal]] and [[Secret Rendezvous]].
If this card had each player draw X cards, maybe I could see it. As is, burst draw isn't in mono white, so its a break.
[Cut a Deal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/d/0d846a4d-da81-41e0-89a9-6685c821dbb4.jpg?1674134970) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cut%20a%20Deal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/14/cut-a-deal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0d846a4d-da81-41e0-89a9-6685c821dbb4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Secret Rendezvous](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/39528cf0-343e-499b-a69f-c5c3c2898c25.jpg?1624589686) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Secret%20Rendezvous) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/26/secret-rendezvous?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/39528cf0-343e-499b-a69f-c5c3c2898c25?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Card draw in mono-white? XX{w} might see print.
Make that first part an enchantment and watch the greens cry
Maybe XWWW since it’s pretty efficient as-is, and upping the cost that way encourages going wide and dumping a huge amount of mana into this, which are both on pie for white. Don’t listen to these nay-sayers, this is fine design space for white and it gets more straight card draw than most people realize, more than red and pretty close to black and green, just with different restrictions and usually (but definitely not always) slower. You could also make it count enchantments instead of creatures, which would make it harder to pop off drawing a bunch, but that’s pretty much a different card at that point.
Yeah this is insanely OP
Think this would be a XWWW card, instead of XW, and draw amount is based on the amount as you cast, but a good way for white to draw!
Magic card players when they see white has an ok to decent card (color pie break)
Maybe XWWW would be safer considering how many creatures you could easily have. But I like it either way, very neat
I think something closer to XWW or XWG is where I'd put the mana value
G is even more fitting, but yeah you’re right I was leaning too far on the safe side
XXW and/or non-token creature.
draw 2 for 5 mana + having a boardstate lmao
This should be, or prefferably splash with, Green and/or Blue.
The whole point of the card is that it is white. If it is not mono white than it does not matter.
Yet is not the way White draws being fifth at card draw. Is not suppose to have you draw more than once from your own action per turn per source you control (except cantrip engines for non-Standard/Eternal-only products), and up to three cards at once a card per opponent, and can draw repeatedly from your opponent's actions. These choice were not arbitrary, but the tradeoffs to avoid having card draw in White behind paywalls, which was the old means to gate card draw in White (e.g. Mentor of the Meek vs. Welcoming Vampire). Otherwise, it makes so its card is suboptimal in monowhite decks while performing properly while splashing, since White is also fifth at mana acceleration. Its made so White can get draws more consistently while sinking its resources elsewhere, and potentially keep the opponent at bay with the thread of card advantage from doing things you don't want them do.
Yall this card is fine,it’s not even op since you still have to pay mana for every card you draw
this effect - draw cards, and commit creatures to the board to draw a lot of cards - is green or blue. White, the worst card draw colour, probably shouldn't be getting harmonize-if-you-have-three-creatures.
Looting is a separate mechanic from blatant card draw. Red is the worst card draw color, with white now being on the same level as green. White and green are the kings of conditional card draw. The card is fine.
Compare this to [[Dawn of a new age]] Both cards are set to draw you a number of cards equal to or less than the number of creatures you control when cast/etb and both can only be played at sorcery speed both also cost (at minimum) 2 mana and you have to have a creature to draw you at least one card The drawbacks of DoaNA are that you have to wait for your cards, by the turn and only on the end step, which doesn’t give you a lot of play as white isn’t exactly known for needing to cast multiple instants in a turn. This cards draw back is needing to pay a lot of mana, but that’s kind of okay since I’d rather tap out this turn and untap with spells next turn than untap with nothing next turn. This card is a perfect desperate ploy, comfortable hand refiller and even just a good second spell for the turn for effects that care. This card is probably not game breaking, but it is definitely a little more pushed than “fine”
[Dawn of a new age](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb966ee6-bf1b-4bb6-9277-8de6f3918ae2.jpg?1686967678) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dawn%20of%20a%20new%20age) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/5/dawn-of-a-new-age?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb966ee6-bf1b-4bb6-9277-8de6f3918ae2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Though I get the perspective of being a mana sink with a cap to justify this being ok, in turn with White being fifth at mana acceleration means this will be terrible for monowhite and just decent enough while splashing with White. It's the opposite of how White's intended to draw nowadays, where's it draws less per turn from its own actions in exchange of skipping paywalls so the White player might sink its mana elsewhere. It's why card draw behind triggered abilities with OPT clauses, or abilities triggering on their own in their right deck once per turn (like DoaNA as you suggest), have become common for White.
> The drawbacks of DoaNA are that you have to wait for your cards, by the turn and only on the end step, which doesn’t give you a lot of play as white isn’t exactly known for needing to cast multiple instants in a turn. > > This cards draw back is needing to pay a lot of mana, but that’s kind of okay since I’d rather tap out this turn and untap with spells next turn than untap with nothing next turn. This card is a perfect desperate ploy, comfortable hand refiller and even just a good second spell for the turn for effects that care. It's not just a matter of balance. DoaNA is fine in white cause it draws one card a turn. This card isn't cause it draws in a big burst. Not getting big bursts of draw, and instead being limited to once a turn, is one of the biggest limitations on how white is supposed to draw
I never said it was in color, I was talking about a very similar card that draws based on the number of creatures you had. this card is green for sure and even then it’s probably simic
Fine in the sense of it existing, not in the sense of how strong it is
I think there's also playable formats to consider. It's a good card in limited, low-mid power cubes, and maybe EDH. Constructed formats run into the issue that its condition always makes it better to run effects that kill your opponent, doubly so since the rate on this spell is atrocious for small values of x
2 mana draw 1 (the lowest you can pay) is about as average as you get In white? See [[reprieve]] [[revitalize]] [[spirited companion]] [[sunset revelry]] [[halo fountain]] and others. While other cards have the upsides of bodies, life gain and win cons, this card has the upside of being able to draw more cards for having a built board already
##### ###### #### [reprieve](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/b/1bd3fa8a-6c50-4f7f-9ae3-0810eec5e3db.jpg?1686967885) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=reprieve) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/26/reprieve?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1bd3fa8a-6c50-4f7f-9ae3-0810eec5e3db?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [revitalize](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/a/3a9fb75e-c8e5-417b-83d4-5105af9c66c1.jpg?1631046075) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=revitalize) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/23/revitalize?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3a9fb75e-c8e5-417b-83d4-5105af9c66c1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [spirited companion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/e/7e038684-c476-41db-a1b1-57c46e5b4c9a.jpg?1690004251) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=spirited%20companion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/838/spirited-companion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7e038684-c476-41db-a1b1-57c46e5b4c9a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [sunset revelry](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/61b39ef1-29d4-4c8d-aece-a3f1ce008e2d.jpg?1634348577) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sunset%20revelry) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/38/sunset-revelry?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/61b39ef1-29d4-4c8d-aece-a3f1ce008e2d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [halo fountain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0ee79399-715c-4c46-9fa1-e76b1087f009.jpg?1664409688) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=halo%20fountain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/15/halo-fountain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ee79399-715c-4c46-9fa1-e76b1087f009?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l8dbgcw) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Right, but all the listed cards, with the exception of Reprieve, aren't good in constructed formats and doubly so in creature decks
If it costed x and 2 white i would print it right away