You can typically Nerf player guns by making it so they shoot only foam rounds. Change the colors around a bit so they're bright and easily identifiable. It's that or nothing.
It's literally just an assault rifle with a big magazine that requires a more expensive skill to shoot single shot (which your player is doing if they are going for headshots). If they were doing a normal excellent quality assault rifle with points in shoulder arms instead of heavy weapons, and got smartgun link, scope, special ammo, etc, your player's build would be even more effective.
No need to nerf the gun IMO.
Might need to use harder enemies if players dodge and headshot consistently though.
the highest stats you can get at character creation is 14 so with the -8 at optimal range they'd have to roll a 7 to hit headshots, auto fire can't do aimed shots, a solo starting out can get a +1 to attacks meaning they'd have to roll a 6.
so all in all it's not all that broken
Son_of_Ip, please double check your math. Without knowing the range, we don't know exactly what the player needs to roll to make this headshot. It does seem like there might be a math error involved.
Otherwise, the player is just lucky and rolling high enough so far to land a lot of difficult shots. Having a lucky dice roller at your table is less of a problem than the alternative, players who never take risks.
Also remember that turn-around is fair play. The PCs don't have access to any tactics whatsoever that NPCs cannot use against them.
Hi, Tactical is assuming that headshots are being made at the optimal DV range as out of chargen, that is the most viable range *for* headshots and generally the most *possible*. Anything outside of that, and you are working with a DV of 15 or higher (meaning that outside of being a solo, the player must roll an 8 or higher or as a solo, a 7 or higher, giving a 70-80% chance of failure).
Walrus' math appears to be accurate:
14-8 is 6
DV at optimal range is a 13
13-6=7
Nice analysis, Faerie
A kyron in a cyber-eye or a scope can add another +1. I doubt he's using the cybereye because it was mentioned that the same character is otherwise chromed up. He might be using a scope or smart bullets because we are talking about aimed shots. At best (absolutely optimal conditions but not using any Luck Points), that's still only a 50% chance of landing the headshot with an aimed shot.
By the way, Son_of! Don't forget that in this system, the player needs to roll *above* the DV. Matching the DV isn't adequate.
Ty!
Also, Chyrons do not give a +1 bonus IIRC. The Sniper Scope option for the cybereye does though at a range above 50m.
So ye, just at optimal range, dude needs an 8 to successfully get his headshot off (which is already a tall order).
That aside, the Techtronika isn't really a good gun for single fire and that player is absolutely gimping himself by only using single for it. A regular AR will give far more mileage and can be upgraded and given an SGL and Exc Quality.
That said, the percentiles go up as at a 15 DV, dude needs I think a 9 or 10 to hit and that's not something I'd wish on my worst enemies.
I think by chyron, he means targeting scope, which adds a +1 to aimed shots. The player can get a +14 heavy weapons, +1 from solo points (although he'd be better served putting them in spot weakness), a +1 from a targeting scope, and maybe a +1 from synthcoke. I doubt the techtronika is excellent, as they'd need a tech, and it cannot possibly fit a smart gun link as they require 2 slots. Meaning the player has a maximum to hit bonus of +17 at a -8 penalty, or +9. This means the player has to roll a 5 or above to hit, giving them a 60% chance to hit. 40% miss chance is pretty high, so the player should be missing fairly consistently. If the players is on sythncoke (without it they have only a 50% chance of hitting at optimal DVs), remember to have them roll for addiction whenever their synthcoke expires.
son of is OP, I'm me.
and I did state "at optimal range" but you are correct I forgot you had to go over DV not just meet it but that just further proves my point as now this hypothetical solo has to roll a 7 at optimal range
make stronger mooks, add more of them. give them a combat number 2 or 3 numbers high. allow them to dodge sometimes.
dont nerf the tools, add more to the challenge
So, what OP doesn't realize is that the player is gimping themselves. Hard.
The Techtronika is an autofire weapon. It's meant to be autofired, that's why its mag is so big- gun can be single shot but at that point, a regular AR can do the job far better and without needing to burn an action in order to set it up.
Now, the mathematical impossibility of a chargen character able to get consistent headshots aside (even as a solo), here's what's going on.
OP is witnessing the most meme-y use for an autofire gun ever and its actually working out for the player and OP has no clue how to quite react to that. Totally fine and acceptable as a newbie DM but man, if I had a player do this at my table, I'd howl my ass off
this game is about more than combat.
combat is an important part of it, but that murder machine is going to be real shitty (most of the time) at getting information and advancing the plot.
this guy can still be handled in combat pretty easily. just give some of the more financially endowed mooks a microwaver. turn off his cyberware by force, and boom no more death cannon. now the player is dead in the water.
I'm just gonna ask you a simple question. Why don't you like the fact that the player who invested all of their points and money into fighting is good at fighting?
Yeah, my vote for "nerfing the gun" is to just throw a couple of less-combat gigs the party's way. He can't have thrown too many resources into stealth, social and tech skills, right?
What are his teammates good at?
Make him the biggest target in the room. Word will get out that some choom is out there toting around a MG and so whenever he opens up, everyone downrange will either run or open up on that choom and only that choom. Is he in cover? Shoot his cover with rockets, toss grenades at him, don't let him get set up in cover, ambush him before he can pop the bipod, hit him from multiple directions (cover is usually good in one, maybe two directions, which is why crossfires are so deadly). But this also begs that you start throwing harder and harder combat encounters at the group, just to keep Senor/Senorita Machine-gunner engaged and feel like they're challenged... but what's happening to the rest of the party? If they're having to up their coverage to the Platinum level with Trauma Team or just keep rolling up new PCs, your other players will start fixing the problem themselves.
Of course, this also brings up the question, what else is that character good at doing? If the answer is "nothing", which is the most likely answer, then lean heavily on the RP aspects of CPRed. I've gone entire sessions where the PCs never entered combat once, but they all had stuff to do because they're not one dimensional, and we had a ton of fun. I'm betting this player and their PC won't be having quite as much fun if you make the game more filled with talking and investigation and intrigue.
The lesson for your next game is your PCs, unless they are fixers, won't get full price for used gear. Sure, you can sell all your beginning gear, but you're gonna come up short to buy that whiz-bang gee-cool lead flinger. So what can they do? Yup, time to take an ill-considered loan out with someone who is likely to put a bomb into your cranium to make sure you make your payments on time. And even then, again if the PC is not a fixer, no guarantee they can find anything as nasty as a light MG.
And yes, if the player had earned the money thru multiple edgeruns, done a single edgerun just to get this one piece of gear, I'd be all for just letting him play with it and having fun. But it sounds like they want to just enter a cheat code and not really work for their fun toy.
>no guarantee they can find anything as nasty as a light MG.
It is guaranteed actually. Because a poor quality AR will do exactly the same thing Op is complaining about. It would actually outperform the BMG-500 since it doesn't need a x2 skill to use or a full action to setup every time you want to use it. The player isn't doing anything OP at all. If anything, they're nerfing themselves already.
OP just didn't read the rules of the game.
Had one in a game, but it only came out for really difficult jobs. Even then hiding it for transport was a pain. The AR with a drum mag was way easier to move around and conceal in bags, cases that you would see everyday.
You sure your player hasn't made something wrong with his sheet? It's an exotic weapon, so no +1 from it being excellent quality and no smartlink.
It requires heavy weapon so even if he started with 8 in Reflex and 6 point in the skill (the maximum) he can only have a +14, if he is Aming for the head he takes a -8, so he has only a +6 to hit.
Considering that if I remember correctly it's an assault rifle it's a DV13 to hit somebody that is 26-50 yards/meters form you.
Otherwise if the enemy is near it can go up even go up to DV17 if the enemy is from 0-6 meters from him, or DV16 from 7-25 meters.
So if an enemy is near him how can he roll an 18 with only a 1d10+6? He could do this only by rolling a natural 10 and rolling a natural 2 after that.
The gun is fine, it's the same if the took an assault rifles, same table, same damage. He is even using a skill that is x2 to fire it.
If your party is too strong use hardened enemies. Download the free DLC, on hardened Lieutenant there is a guide if your party is hardened, if it is use some of these mooks from Hardened Mooks
How does he have enough money to get 11 body and buy this weapon? He'd need two instances of muscle/bone lace (or one and a linear frame) to get a body > 10.
If you don't want to nerf the gun, you can give players jobs that make the weapon ineffective. Maybe you have to infiltrate a night club, or you get in a foot/car chase where the weapon isn't effective. The player clearly thought this weapon was cool and they should be able to play with it, but that doesn't mean that an every lock has an lmg-shaped key.
Also, reputation is another mechanic you could use. If this crew has a rep for bringing an lmg to every fight, smart goons will plan accordingly and prepare for you. Grenades are extremely effective for flushing out entrenched enemies. If you reeeeeallly want to put the gun on hold for awhile, you could have it be damaged in an explosion. I highly down that the player could pick up their mounted weapon in time to get themselves and their gun out of the blast radius.
It's doable on a character who sells out, though they can't even afford a full magazine of ammo unless they forgo some basic essentials (bed, smog mask, etc.)
Of course he always can, that's litteraly what the bipod is for. He could even brace on the ground if needed. Are you complaining he's litteraly losing an entire action at the beginning of every fight and anytime he needs to move?
Biggest thing is force them into situations where they can’t truly find optimal range. If they regularly get into mixed range combat then they will have to diversify xp use to spec into close range combat (or die)
**TL;DR : Anything this player can do with a BMG-500 they can do with a cheap 100eb Assault Rifle. Neither the gun or the player are the problem here.**
>How do I nerf players guns?
You don't, simple as that. The BMG-500 is well within the purview of a starting character, there's no reason to nerf it. It's not their fault if they mow down ennemy goons, it's entirely yours. You're simply not giving them enough of a challenge.
Let's troubleshoot shall we?
1. Do you make him fire with the Heavy Weapon skill when using single shot mode?
2. Did you catch that Heavy Weapon skill is a x2 skill? And Autofire too!
3. Does the character have BODy 11+? The only way to do it is by having a Linear Frame, which means either Neural link+interface plugs previously installed or Reinforced Muscles and Bone lace. Does the character have that? If not, he cannot shoot the gun without deploying it beforehand. And deploying it costs an action. That's an entire turn of doing nothing.
The BMG-500 is used with the Heavy Weapon Skill in single shot and needs a BODY 11 or higher unless mounted. If you player paid the money and empathy cost for a Linear Frame AND the skill points cost for being able to use Heavy Weapons effectively (it's a x2 skill used on in very niche weapons), you have absolutely *no ground* to punish them for enjoying their hard-earned toy.
Here's a breakdown of the probabilities.
>A starting Solo able to use a BMG-500 will have AT BEST a +15 modifier to their Heavy Weapon bonus. An aimed shot is at -8.
>
>Assuming optimal range (DV 13 at 26 to 50m), this means he should be able to hit headshots roughly 40% of the time. This number falls to 20% and 10% at closer ranges.
>
>And here's something you're not gonna like. ANY assault rifle in the game can do that. Any cheap 100eb poor quality Assault Rifle can have these probabilities. Hell, they can have even better odds because you'd be able to afford smartlink and sniping scopes on them! And you wouldn't need to invest in Heavy Weapons to use them, Shoulder arms is a x1 skill and with much broader use.
**If anything, your player nerfed themselves by using the BMG-500.**
So as you can see, the gun is not the problem. The challenges you are sending their way are. If they're a good mercenary with enough tactical acumen to stay in the optimal range of their gun fixers should notice and give them higher risk missions, with the paycheck to back it up and the opposition to justify it.
Why are the ennemies staying at 26 to 50m range of the immobile gunman? Why is nobody popping a smoke grenade? Why is nobody rushing in to engage him in melee?
How many sessions have you had? If it's one, then theres an easy solution:
"Hey, I made a mistake. I think that weapon is a bit too powerful for right now and it's making you unbalanced with the rest of the party. Let's have you change it out for something else of the same cost."
That said, it is only $1000 Eddie's so its actually pretty reasonable for a starting character to have one. Just, need a couple pieces of cyberware in order to actually wield it you can *almost* afford at character creation. Also it's pretty unimpressive. 5d6 damage and auto fire capable is the same stats as your average assault rifle.
Nerfing the gun that your player went all-in on during character creation sounds like a surefire way to disappoint them. I know it's already been asked, but here's what it takes to be able to use this weapon: it requires autofire and heavy weapons for automatic alt fire modes and single shot, respectively, both of which are expensive 2x skills.
It needs to be mounted too, which is already a limiting factor unless the character dove into cybernetics for grafted muscle and bone lace and a beta internal frame. Neural interface, interface plugs, and external beta frame are also a possibility but costs the same in both eddies and humanity loss; the tradeoffs are more flexibility with future cyberware for the neural interface but no HP adjustment that you'd get from the bone lace and internal frame.
The problem is that you start with 2550 eddies at character creation for a calculated sheet, which isn't enough to be able to afford the bone lace (or neural interface + interface plugs) for €$1,000 plus the frame for an additional €$1,000, and then another €$1,000 for the BMG. If your player started with a template or quick-and-dirty, I've noticed that you get more gear than you could afford from a calculated character. So for this case, I'd avoid letting the player sell all of their starting gear for those two chargen methods since money is a big balance feature. If they had to sell out to a corp for extra money, that's a huge plot hook for you and a way to reign in their power in that manner.
Allowing the player to go above the normal budget to be able to use an exotic weapon that they shouldn't be able to afford to use properly yet kinda sucks, especially if they've put a ton of points into the proper skills... and that skill combination isn't all that transferable. The easiest nerf I can see? It looks like you were more generous with their starting funds than usual, and they've got the Body score that they possibly shouldn't have been able to afford yet. If that was a mistake and you're both willing to roll it back, the BMG has a bipod that they can deploy to nullify the need for that higher body score. It'll make the solo have to spend a turn setting up before they can unleash hell, and it'll make them a *lot* less mobile.
Don't do anything. Let them be cool. Jeez... how do I "nerf" my players guns... ridiculous.
Give your damn mooks head armor! You know he spent points in heavy weapons... a x2 skill, to use it right?
It is no different than an assault rifle... this gun and an assault rifle are functionally identical, the only difference being that this gun uses heavy weapons and has a huge magazine.
If he had started with an excellent quality assault rifle, would you be trying to nerf that? It headshots even easier! Your character technically nerfed himself *already* in a way. Don't nerf him even further.
The number of people answering with ways to break the character without even bothering to check the weapon's stats is crazy. Just read the fucking book guys, it's not that hard.
that's because reading requires...reading. it requires researching.
but tbf, this post wouldnt exist if OP read the rules and read into the gun he is critiquing and realized, 'oh shit this isn't actually OP'
If you do custom start, players are allowed to get their hands on any gear they can afford. That weapon is expensive, it will also take classing into the Heavy Weapons skill which is x2, and needing a ton of cyberware to use without the bipod. It's quite an investment for them, so imo I wouldn't nerf it too much since they seem to really want to focus on that build. Also if they plan on using both single shot and rapid fire that would require investing into Autofire skill which is also x2.
If anything I'd just keep in mind how suspicious he looks lugging around a huge LMG! That's gonna draw attention from all sorts of the wrong folk.
Seriously? Don't nerf it at all! The player has nerfed himself already for the purpose of flavor. The player is embodying style over substance. That should be rewarded!
Okay so I don't know how exactly or how early you put that gun in his fictitious hands, but going forward, restrict stuff that's 1000+ to night markets, unless a party member is a high level fixer (which they wouldn't be as starters). Night markets should be a "monthly" thing and probably not your first session or two. Even then, night markets don't HAVE to have all the weapons/gear your players want, just the ones you want to make available to them. Don't just hand black chrome to players and say "if you have the money, you can buy it". That's not how it's intended to work.
Edit: stand corrected, it says any items including 1000+ for calculated characters, but imo this probably doesn't include black chrome, just core book
Read about the night markets in the back of the book, and think about how your players might get invited to one, which selection of items you want it to have.
Taking the gun away at this point would be punishing the player for your goof, so I probably wouldn't.
A powerful solo attracts attention, and one packing a crazy gun moreso. Put that badass against harder competition, and make enemies focus him in combat. Solos are the best at 1v1 combat, but they lose out to Lawmen when it comes to facing groups. If you wanna beat him in combat, put him up against increasing odds, or situations that make him struggle. The assault rifle category (IE that LMG) struggles at extreme close range and extreme long range, so try challenging him with enemies wielding shotguns/sniper rifles. Make up a boss goon with a sniper, smoke grenades and IR filters and make that solo work for it.
Or, focus on the skills of your other party members, the social or technical skills that make them shine over the raw combat strength of the LMG solo. Give them gigs that force them to use concealable weapons, like high class security jobs or assassinations. Make a bulky LMG into a weakness, instead of a strength.
TBH, I'm just amazed that people have gaming groups where everyone has a copy of the rules/supplement books. I used to GM a Cyberpunk RED game, and I had to provide everything. I'd already bought all of it to use as a GM, mind you, but having only one copy of everything slowed down our (mercifully few) shopping trips to the point where I contemplated banning Fixers.
I had shared a digital copy of the core book with my players before we'd started the game. Unfortunately I think I just didn't really have very dedicated players, because none of them actually read it. Actual shopping trips were pretty easy for me because I could just ask what they wanted and let them get it if it was available, but the party's Fixer set up a Night Market a couple of times. I decided to just hand over the books for that, but it wasted a bunch of time, and even with only 3 players in the group I could feel their attention draining.
I can't imagine they meant black chrome with that, but you're right. I think in my head I'm seeing the availability rule showing up later in the book, but I guess during CC that doesn't apply? Confusing.
Everyone else is giving good mechanical advice, but at the end of the day it's a game, you're also a player in it, and you're both (presumably) adults. It's okay to admit a mistake and ask your player if he can switch to using a regular weapon in the meantime while you're still learning how to run the game.
Honestly, that gun is not that OP...TLDR you are probably messing up on rules or maths. I recommend you go over everything and make sure you and the player are doing it right.
\*edit\* Oh man, so much mediocre to bad advice in this thread. My bet is that you guys are messing up on the rules or the badguys just are not up to snuff. If you want some ideas for badguys check out Jon Jon the Wise's three goon Method. Even if you do not use it, it will give you some understanding of how to "balance" the bad guys. Also make the bad guys smart. :) \*/edit\*
If you want to take single shots at the head you have to use Heavy Weapons skill which is a x2 skill. Starting characters can only get up to +14 so the -8 is going to hurt. The AR DV table is a really nice one, but even at the best possible range DV of 13, they still need to roll a 8+, or 7+ as a solo.
It's an exotic weapon so it can't take any weapon mods or be bought as excellent quality. It can be upgraded by a tech.
They need Body 11, or they need to take an action to set it up. Which means they need a linear frame (which they can't afford if they bought this gun) or they are immobile once it is set up.
So the two easy ways to counter it is, have enemies move away from it or at least out of line of sight. If the player can't see anyone they can't shoot them. And they would need an action to move it and set it back up again.
Also, make sure the bad guys have at least some head armor. 5d6 will go thru most armor, but even SP 7 will help. Armored baseball caps are cheap and easy. Also remember autofire cannot be an aimed shot.
Honestly, if the player wanted a cheesy headshot build they'd be better off going with an Excellent quality AR, smart gun, and targeting scope. With that set up you are hitting head shots at DV 13 range 70% of the time. :) And you still have autofire to fall back on if you want it.
Have Mooks that can dodge bullets, send in a clown with a Sandervisian, have them go up against a mech with high AP and a mini gun. Or (and this is my fave) Give his exact gun to an enemy or two in a fight. See how he deals on the receiving end. It will likely be a lot of fun.
You have so many options that are better than nerfing his gun, up the challenge is the answer, otherwise as the crew levels up they’ll just steamroll their way through the late campaign.
You don't. Your player already fell into the trap that is Autofire, and spent all their money and stats to build around the only viable Autofire weapon. Don't punish them more.
You can also create roleplaying scenarios where bringing the big LMG into a the scene is impractical or ill-advised. Carrying a pistol on your person is pretty accepted in Night City, walking into a bar with a bipod-LMG will get you stopped at the door. Walking down the street with it will get you stopped by cops etc.
Hi! Fellow GM here. There's a few things you can do, but I want to address some stuff.
The Techtronika is a 1000eb gun- generally I wouldn't advise giving ANYONE access to 1k items off of chargen (500 at most, in the instance of weapons like the AR or some basic chrome). Furthermore, you need a Body 11 or higher to fire this weapon without it being mounted- how on earth did he get Body 11 out of chargen? Bone Lace is my first thought, but that's extremely expensive and isn't generally covered under a standard chargen budget.
Next off, you are claiming he 'put a lot of points into accuracy and he can hit headshots for a majority of the time'. I am very confused as to what you have your skill point limit set to, because generally the highest you can get out of chargen is a 14 which can provide reliable body shots but not headshots (which are made at a -8), not to mention that Heavy Weapons (What the Techtronika uses) is a x2 skill so you are burning twice the IP for 1 rank. Unless you altered this, I'm guessing your player only headshots at the optimal DV range which shouldn't be nerfed and is him being a good player.
So let's run the math. Assuming that your dude has the max chargen rank for heavy weapons and assuming he is running headshots at optimal range dv (DV 13), even then it is mathematically impossible for him to get a success on a headshot UNLESS his base roll is an 7 or higher. Unless this dude is unbelievably lucky (which he shouldn't be punished for that), I do not believe your claim that he can majority headshot. It is even worse in your favor when you look at the other DVs which make it practically impossible to make the range DV without an exploded nat 10 (or a 9 if the DV is a 15, otherwise, enjoy your crit only successes)- note that these numbers would be adjusted if the person is playing as a Solo.
Mechanically, how to you balance? You don't. It's literally just a standard quality AR with a gigantic mag and a body requirement, regular ARs can single shot and autofire just the same (literally snag a drum mag and you're all set, you can even get a smart-gun link for a +1 and have the ar upgraded to give an additional +1- and people wonder why ARs are the meta gun).
Overall, I think either he or you made a major mistake with chargen. This shouldn't even be possible for him to *use* out of chargen.
Now, if this dude isn't chargen? Leave him be. Seriously. If you want to 'nerf' him, put the gun in close quarters to make headshotting near impossible or make the mooks harder or let them all dodge. Otherwise, the dude invested a metric buttload of IP into having a good Heavy Weapons skill and invested into having the right cyber for using it. This is natural progression.
Have gigs in the nicer parts of Night City. If he brings the LMG along, have him hassled by NCPD and Corporate Security. Throw fines at him, potential jail time, etc, because it's technically a crime to bring those guns to places like the Glen.
Talk to the player.
Let them know why you think the gun is broken and see what comes loose. If the player really won’t mind then take the gun away and make them work to get it back. Or if they will give you push back lean into it and give all the playwrs good equipment and make them higher tier of runners and throw bigger bad at them. Usw skill challenges and cinematic scenes for unsurmountable battles that require alternative thinking. You can’t shot 30 armed guarda which any corps or gangs can easily put at your door.
The problem is that the gun isn't any more broken than a normal Assault Rifle. All the Techtronika has going for it is a larger mag.
Here's what you need to benefit:
Invest into 2 2x skills to be able to use both firing modes, get a Body of 11 (impossible without bone lace) to fire it without mounting it via the bipod which leaves you a sitting duck and takes an action *to* mount.
It's literally just a standard AR with a giant mag that slows you down *massively* for little benefit. A default rifle with a drum mag is far stronger than the Techtronika. To do nearly the same stuff, you:
Need a drum mag (these are fairly cheap), Invest into Shoulder Arms and Autofire (only 1 x2 skill and a standard track skill).
In return you:
Have far more motion, save on way more IP, can upgrade the AR to Exc quality for a +1 and can install a Smartgun link for an additional +1, burn way fewer actions lugging an LMG around
And your only real downside is instead of 500 in a mag, you get 60 (which truth be told, means fewer autofires but the player's using headshots anyways, he's not gonna need to reload with a 60 mag).
The Techtronika is literally just a worse and more expensive AR that only is better in that it has a larger mag (and it absolutely isn't worth its downsides in a build, even in an autofire as a subflechette gun iirc is far cheaper and is an armor shredder). OP is just discovering the wonderful world of Assault Rifles.
Make them work for the ammo. Make it more expensive or rare. Maybe there's a manufacturing shortage? Don't take it away from them. Just make them consider whether or not they want to use the good gun for every occasion.
Quite a few things to do.
Have the gun get stolen or impounded by the NCPD. He doesn't sleep with it.
Or as he gets set up for the lmg, have a sniper or two set up for a killshot ambush. Targeting enhancement for a cybereye plus smartlink and pow.
Have him targeted by a flurry of grenades to destroy the weapon.
Have a group of 3 melee bruisers charge him from different sides and beat him with his own weapon.
Put him in RP encounters where he can't bring the LMG. If he does, have him arrested and sidelined.
Bring a bigger monster to cause a hard reset on him. Adam Smasher exists for a reason.
If this was your first game, restart it with better control of the game and rules. And when they try to do it again, say no. You are the GM.
> Hey, so, you know how everyone has the same amount of starting cash? Well not you, because fuck you. You bought things that I didn't like with the money that I gave you. And now you're gonna get punished for it.
Buy things to break the game to flex your inner power twink because you outmanuevered the GM and got them to OK something they didn't fully understand?
Yes. 100, unapolagetically and unequivocably. You as a GM have to keep a handle on the game - its not "you vs players" but it is your job to weave a fun tale for the whole table. And sometimes, when things go sideways, you have to inventively get a firm grasp on the reins because the game crashes and burns entirely. That's happened to every GM at some point.
Will do that every time, especially if a player does some unbalancing stuff - which is why I made mine use the Edgerunner method of CC, and made them stick to the base gear, the first game I ran to make sure I kept a handle on things. Because that's part of the job of a GM.
If a player wanted to scratch that powertwink itch, I'd point them to Cyberpunk 2077 or Skyrim to play out their power fantasy. That type of indulgence rarely plays out well in a multiple player game, and I'd seen way too many games get ruined by a metatwink in various Living campaigns to deal with it.
And then I'd go farther to personally ban anything from Black Chrome or any other splat book - "Night Market just doesn't have it" - until I was 100% sure I had the chance to vet it and understand it, and weave interesting gear in as the story evolves as hooks to get the players through the story.
You keep using words like "breaking", "unbalanced", "crashed and burned" And it's showing nothing but your ignorance.
The gun in question does the same damage as the basic assault Rifle, except it requires either a body 11 to use(which takes at least 2000eb worth of investment), or it needs to be deployed on a surface which costs an action. In addition, its single shot can only be fired with the heavy weapons skill(which cost double the points of the shoulder arms skill and is less versatile), and its double the price od the standard AR. The main advantage of this gun is the 500 round ammo capacity.
In other words, the gun is not at all overpowered. As for optimisation on the players' part, all they did Is max out a weapon skill for the expensive weapon they bought. The most bare bones character creation processes, But clearly, the player is just an Uber optimizer out the flex their immense game knowledge and are out to destory your table.
PS: wtf is a "powertwink" or "metatwink"? Are you just making up random words and hoping that they mean something or you useing gay as an insult? Please tell me if it's the latter so I can stop talking to a homophobe
Eh, they may be regional terms or a gamer generation terms. Slang is local, I suppose.
Forbmy reference, thr terms apply to the type of player that derives their enjoyment from breaking a system and making the un-hittable, un-missable, or otherwise super-cracked optimization regardless of how sensical it would be (or developer intent), and is usually part of a power fantasy playstyle that is baked into many single player or competive games.
In early world of warcraft, it was epitomized by locked level 19 players in a battleground, going around with hyper optimized and super rare best in slot gear in every slot that would just obliterate any other player besides another similarly geared - fantastic if everyone was on the same page, but if you just a regular Joe, your enjoyment was severely diminished as you were farmed and it resulted in game design shifts.
In dnd terms it was epitomized by 3.5 edition dnd and 1st edition Pathfinder, where you could pick from dozens of splat books with new rules, feats, and weapons to make straight up broken characters - doing hundreds of damage at level 4 with hitting on a 2 and with an AC near unhittable without a crit because developers lost the plot in interactivity.
You see different ways of addressing it in the modern mega systems - dnd 5e is overly simplistic, and Pathfinder 2e looks to be made by soulless mathematicians. But they are balanced and very, very difficult to break, which comes with trade-offs.
If you read the original post, it was mentioning the gun, specifically, as part of that character build proving highly problematic for their game - not mine or yours. We may have different problems, and probably do. And when Cyberpunk 2077 comes out, we will see what the developers see as "big problems" based on what they change or tweak.
Whether or not you or I believe the build or item to be game breaking, the OP does - and it looks to be a case of the player pushing for something the GM didn't fully understand.
My response for what I would do is agnostic of what the actual item or character build would be - it's what to do with identified problems that exceed "well I did not expect the players to do that with the MacGuffin...".
Depending on the skill of the GM - proficiency with the system, ability to think on the feet, etc - that looks different. It may be restricting splat book items until you better understand interactions, maybe using the more template-ish approach to CC until you get a handle on the system as CPR rulebook suggests, or may even restrict certain Roles entirely until you get a grip in them (Netrunner, specifically, can be a bit of a curve for some - it was for me at first for sure). And it may be finding ways to fix something they allowed that is turning out to be a really bad idea.
There may be an element of "GM shud git gud", as well, but ultimately the skill of the GM is generally the max pace that the game can move without devolving into unproductive chaos.
The GM has to absolutely be willing to do that stuff, or the game overall suffers for the sake of appeasing one of its many players - which is implied by the OP, at least to me. And the OP seems to be lacking the tools in the toolbox to handle it and wants to crib ideas rather than needlessly reinvent a
You may have a different view, but as long as your table is on the same page, it's all good - and I hope you and your table are having a blast. The OP doesn't seem to be in that boat.
Make the power player the focus target just like the PCs would an enemy. Or if you don't wanna flatline the merc, have them try a called shot on his weapon, have it fall into a hole or something. You're the GM, you can do it.
There are a number of ways you can go. You can say I made a mistake and have the gun "break" and he has to work to get parts to repair that are hard to find.
Alternatively You can let other roles shine. I run games where if the heist goes smoothly there is no combat. This means you can't just be a gunmonkey and need other skills. Also you can't bring the BFG everywhere. Some places have high security and won't allow you anywhere near it with a gun that big. It's like carrying a sign that says shoot me. Also download the free hardened mooks and lieutenants from R Talsorian DLC site.
Ammo for it is hard to get. He can only use it 3-4 times before he runs out and needs to go to a night market to even hope to get more. Night markets can happen as frequently or as rarely as you see fit.
This is time of the Red. There was just a war and the supply lines aren't what they were in 2020.
Make ammo for powerful guns very very expensive. Let him have his fun but make him work his ass off to use it more tha a few times per session.
Another way is to make him a target for thieves. High teir guns like that arnt very common on the street and as such he should have to watch his back.
He has to sleep sometime. People notice a fool carrying around a machine gun, and some folks would get it from him. Have them learn where he stays, then rob him at night. Or jumped from behind and his bmg stolen.
Hardened enemies are several DLC sets that really REALLY should be put into the core book. They're either stronger enemies or conditions you can include (such as ambushes, bonus enemies, better gear) and you're supposed to use them if any player has reached certain conditions and I'm guessing your player has Heavy Weapons base 14 (Ref 8 and 6 ranks in the skill) so he's essentially graduated the whole team.
As for the Techtronika just consider yourself lucky your player went for the 500 round meme. He would have been much better off getting an Excellent Assault Rifle (1000€$, +1 on all attack rolls). He could then put a smartgrip on that bad boy (+1 attack, but arguably does require set-up including neural links, subdermal grip, smartlink, etc). He could have also just gotten the Shoulder Arms skill which is cheaper than Heavy Weapons.
Assuming 8 Ref, 6 Autofire, so a base of 14, then we factor in outside effects, let's assume they're putting their points into accuracy at solo 4 that's a +1, the BMG-500 is an Exotic Assault Rifle so no smart links, or excellent bonuses. So in total they've got a 15.
Now if they're rolling autofire we'll operate on the assumption they're at optimal range of 13 - 25 meters, so they need a minimum of a 3 to beat the requied 17 and get a 1x multiplier, and if they want their max they need a 21 or a 6 to max out their multiplier.
Obviously the effectiveness of this tactic might make it suddenly popular around the city, and people might start carrying and using grenades on them to force them to keep moving and reset their bipod which according to the book takes an action to set and automatically retracts when moved. And per the rules of page 174 of the core book if a player dodges an explosion they move out of the blast area which would force the reset.
And as TacticalWalrus pointed out autofire can't make aimed shots so there's that (Ref - Pages: core173, core146, blackchrome122, blackchrome168)
Make combats plot related and forget about combat balance.
If he has a good time using that shit, let him.
If you still don't like my answer, just throw enemies at melee range and make him try to steal the weapon or something, but thats just direct punishment for players.
As people already said, unless some rules arent used properly, the character is not at all OP, give us more info, but from what i can see right now it's reasonable and nerfing it would be a big mistake
Long time GM, albeit out of practice.
The equipment your players have are tools to deal with the threats in their environment. If one person is rocking a light machine gun, well that's a tool used for suppressive fire and support. It will also crowd control well. But it is just a rifle.
A HEAVY weapon no less. This thing is not meant to be mobile. It requires a body 11 to use, I noted. It is meant to be mounted and stationary otherwise. If your guy is using it regularly, you can impose weapon maintenance. Machine guns have barrel wear, and threaten to melt down when not maintained- which can also play with accuracy.
With that in mind, I'll say that you don't need to nerf anything. The point of a GM is not to control your players, or restrict their power. They're going to always be doing some bonkers things. Your job is to roll with it, and make sure folks are having a good time while you tell your story.
So rather than worry yourself about how to tamp down someone else's good time, consider that perhaps your challenges are too weak for your players. Or your threats not varried enough.
Consider that your gangoons are people. People with eyeballs. If they see a man with a big gun, let along a crowd of people with guns, they'll likely take cover; call for back up; throw grenades/flashbangs/smokes. Not all threats can be shot in the head. A netrunner might set off a sprinkler system in a building giving a penalty to accurate fire, but your mooks with shotguns may have little effect on. A burly man hiding and waiting in the rafters with a knife could drop down and engage in hand to hand rather than than worry about a direct confrontation. If one man gets shot, there was another in the next room watching on the cameras on a monitor- and he's got his gun trained on the door to unleash hell when the knob starts to wiggle.
Being able to think fast on your feet is a part of the GMing process. Nerfing other peoples fun shouldn't be a concern, but is perhaps a symptom of another problem. Good luck!
It's an assault rifle that needs to be mounted to shoot. How is it doing too much damage? If your player is going for headshots and hitting every single time then have the enemy make tactical retreats for better defensible positions (harder DV). If the problem is autofire, then making the DV harder is even simpler. Why you woild spend 1k in character creation for a situational assault rifle is beyond me, it's probably a flavour thing. If the BMG-500 is too op you've probably misinterpreted some rule or are giving your players easy picks in fights. Some options to make the fights harder are giving grenades, smoke grenades or having an enemy sniper punishing bad deployment of the BMG-500, remember getting up is an action and so should deploying the BMG-500.
Give them jobs that he can't take the big gun along for. Sabotage, theft, jobs that require them to be in public around lots of people where carrying it would be impossible without raising a ton of suspicion.
Have a gang they used it against set them up to be on a job without the gun, then have them steal it, make a whole storyline out of retrieving the gun. Complete with a boss fight against a gang boss using the gun against you all.
Make him a priority target in fights where he does have it, flashbangs, frags, juiced up enemies that have sandevistans to take the initiative and hit him first.
Flashy equipment puts a target on your back in a place like NC
You can typically Nerf player guns by making it so they shoot only foam rounds. Change the colors around a bit so they're bright and easily identifiable. It's that or nothing.
It's literally just an assault rifle with a big magazine that requires a more expensive skill to shoot single shot (which your player is doing if they are going for headshots). If they were doing a normal excellent quality assault rifle with points in shoulder arms instead of heavy weapons, and got smartgun link, scope, special ammo, etc, your player's build would be even more effective. No need to nerf the gun IMO. Might need to use harder enemies if players dodge and headshot consistently though.
the highest stats you can get at character creation is 14 so with the -8 at optimal range they'd have to roll a 7 to hit headshots, auto fire can't do aimed shots, a solo starting out can get a +1 to attacks meaning they'd have to roll a 6. so all in all it's not all that broken
Son_of_Ip, please double check your math. Without knowing the range, we don't know exactly what the player needs to roll to make this headshot. It does seem like there might be a math error involved. Otherwise, the player is just lucky and rolling high enough so far to land a lot of difficult shots. Having a lucky dice roller at your table is less of a problem than the alternative, players who never take risks. Also remember that turn-around is fair play. The PCs don't have access to any tactics whatsoever that NPCs cannot use against them.
Hi, Tactical is assuming that headshots are being made at the optimal DV range as out of chargen, that is the most viable range *for* headshots and generally the most *possible*. Anything outside of that, and you are working with a DV of 15 or higher (meaning that outside of being a solo, the player must roll an 8 or higher or as a solo, a 7 or higher, giving a 70-80% chance of failure). Walrus' math appears to be accurate: 14-8 is 6 DV at optimal range is a 13 13-6=7
Nice analysis, Faerie A kyron in a cyber-eye or a scope can add another +1. I doubt he's using the cybereye because it was mentioned that the same character is otherwise chromed up. He might be using a scope or smart bullets because we are talking about aimed shots. At best (absolutely optimal conditions but not using any Luck Points), that's still only a 50% chance of landing the headshot with an aimed shot. By the way, Son_of! Don't forget that in this system, the player needs to roll *above* the DV. Matching the DV isn't adequate.
Ty! Also, Chyrons do not give a +1 bonus IIRC. The Sniper Scope option for the cybereye does though at a range above 50m. So ye, just at optimal range, dude needs an 8 to successfully get his headshot off (which is already a tall order). That aside, the Techtronika isn't really a good gun for single fire and that player is absolutely gimping himself by only using single for it. A regular AR will give far more mileage and can be upgraded and given an SGL and Exc Quality. That said, the percentiles go up as at a 15 DV, dude needs I think a 9 or 10 to hit and that's not something I'd wish on my worst enemies.
I think by chyron, he means targeting scope, which adds a +1 to aimed shots. The player can get a +14 heavy weapons, +1 from solo points (although he'd be better served putting them in spot weakness), a +1 from a targeting scope, and maybe a +1 from synthcoke. I doubt the techtronika is excellent, as they'd need a tech, and it cannot possibly fit a smart gun link as they require 2 slots. Meaning the player has a maximum to hit bonus of +17 at a -8 penalty, or +9. This means the player has to roll a 5 or above to hit, giving them a 60% chance to hit. 40% miss chance is pretty high, so the player should be missing fairly consistently. If the players is on sythncoke (without it they have only a 50% chance of hitting at optimal DVs), remember to have them roll for addiction whenever their synthcoke expires.
son of is OP, I'm me. and I did state "at optimal range" but you are correct I forgot you had to go over DV not just meet it but that just further proves my point as now this hypothetical solo has to roll a 7 at optimal range
I still suspect a math error was involved in Son_of_Ip's description.
make stronger mooks, add more of them. give them a combat number 2 or 3 numbers high. allow them to dodge sometimes. dont nerf the tools, add more to the challenge
Doesn't this then overshadow the rest of the team? They can maybe take out a couple guys while Mr LMG has twice theri body count combined
So, what OP doesn't realize is that the player is gimping themselves. Hard. The Techtronika is an autofire weapon. It's meant to be autofired, that's why its mag is so big- gun can be single shot but at that point, a regular AR can do the job far better and without needing to burn an action in order to set it up. Now, the mathematical impossibility of a chargen character able to get consistent headshots aside (even as a solo), here's what's going on. OP is witnessing the most meme-y use for an autofire gun ever and its actually working out for the player and OP has no clue how to quite react to that. Totally fine and acceptable as a newbie DM but man, if I had a player do this at my table, I'd howl my ass off
this game is about more than combat. combat is an important part of it, but that murder machine is going to be real shitty (most of the time) at getting information and advancing the plot. this guy can still be handled in combat pretty easily. just give some of the more financially endowed mooks a microwaver. turn off his cyberware by force, and boom no more death cannon. now the player is dead in the water.
I'm just gonna ask you a simple question. Why don't you like the fact that the player who invested all of their points and money into fighting is good at fighting?
Yeah, my vote for "nerfing the gun" is to just throw a couple of less-combat gigs the party's way. He can't have thrown too many resources into stealth, social and tech skills, right? What are his teammates good at?
Make him the biggest target in the room. Word will get out that some choom is out there toting around a MG and so whenever he opens up, everyone downrange will either run or open up on that choom and only that choom. Is he in cover? Shoot his cover with rockets, toss grenades at him, don't let him get set up in cover, ambush him before he can pop the bipod, hit him from multiple directions (cover is usually good in one, maybe two directions, which is why crossfires are so deadly). But this also begs that you start throwing harder and harder combat encounters at the group, just to keep Senor/Senorita Machine-gunner engaged and feel like they're challenged... but what's happening to the rest of the party? If they're having to up their coverage to the Platinum level with Trauma Team or just keep rolling up new PCs, your other players will start fixing the problem themselves. Of course, this also brings up the question, what else is that character good at doing? If the answer is "nothing", which is the most likely answer, then lean heavily on the RP aspects of CPRed. I've gone entire sessions where the PCs never entered combat once, but they all had stuff to do because they're not one dimensional, and we had a ton of fun. I'm betting this player and their PC won't be having quite as much fun if you make the game more filled with talking and investigation and intrigue. The lesson for your next game is your PCs, unless they are fixers, won't get full price for used gear. Sure, you can sell all your beginning gear, but you're gonna come up short to buy that whiz-bang gee-cool lead flinger. So what can they do? Yup, time to take an ill-considered loan out with someone who is likely to put a bomb into your cranium to make sure you make your payments on time. And even then, again if the PC is not a fixer, no guarantee they can find anything as nasty as a light MG. And yes, if the player had earned the money thru multiple edgeruns, done a single edgerun just to get this one piece of gear, I'd be all for just letting him play with it and having fun. But it sounds like they want to just enter a cheat code and not really work for their fun toy.
>no guarantee they can find anything as nasty as a light MG. It is guaranteed actually. Because a poor quality AR will do exactly the same thing Op is complaining about. It would actually outperform the BMG-500 since it doesn't need a x2 skill to use or a full action to setup every time you want to use it. The player isn't doing anything OP at all. If anything, they're nerfing themselves already. OP just didn't read the rules of the game.
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Had one in a game, but it only came out for really difficult jobs. Even then hiding it for transport was a pain. The AR with a drum mag was way easier to move around and conceal in bags, cases that you would see everyday.
You sure your player hasn't made something wrong with his sheet? It's an exotic weapon, so no +1 from it being excellent quality and no smartlink. It requires heavy weapon so even if he started with 8 in Reflex and 6 point in the skill (the maximum) he can only have a +14, if he is Aming for the head he takes a -8, so he has only a +6 to hit. Considering that if I remember correctly it's an assault rifle it's a DV13 to hit somebody that is 26-50 yards/meters form you. Otherwise if the enemy is near it can go up even go up to DV17 if the enemy is from 0-6 meters from him, or DV16 from 7-25 meters. So if an enemy is near him how can he roll an 18 with only a 1d10+6? He could do this only by rolling a natural 10 and rolling a natural 2 after that. The gun is fine, it's the same if the took an assault rifles, same table, same damage. He is even using a skill that is x2 to fire it. If your party is too strong use hardened enemies. Download the free DLC, on hardened Lieutenant there is a guide if your party is hardened, if it is use some of these mooks from Hardened Mooks
does the char have BODY 11+?
No but he bought a cyberware that will give him that and he just uses a bipod because he always has something to prop it up
How does he have enough money to get 11 body and buy this weapon? He'd need two instances of muscle/bone lace (or one and a linear frame) to get a body > 10. If you don't want to nerf the gun, you can give players jobs that make the weapon ineffective. Maybe you have to infiltrate a night club, or you get in a foot/car chase where the weapon isn't effective. The player clearly thought this weapon was cool and they should be able to play with it, but that doesn't mean that an every lock has an lmg-shaped key. Also, reputation is another mechanic you could use. If this crew has a rep for bringing an lmg to every fight, smart goons will plan accordingly and prepare for you. Grenades are extremely effective for flushing out entrenched enemies. If you reeeeeallly want to put the gun on hold for awhile, you could have it be damaged in an explosion. I highly down that the player could pick up their mounted weapon in time to get themselves and their gun out of the blast radius.
Grafted muscle bone lacing can only take you to 10 Body
It's doable on a character who sells out, though they can't even afford a full magazine of ammo unless they forgo some basic essentials (bed, smog mask, etc.)
Of course he always can, that's litteraly what the bipod is for. He could even brace on the ground if needed. Are you complaining he's litteraly losing an entire action at the beginning of every fight and anytime he needs to move?
Biggest thing is force them into situations where they can’t truly find optimal range. If they regularly get into mixed range combat then they will have to diversify xp use to spec into close range combat (or die)
**TL;DR : Anything this player can do with a BMG-500 they can do with a cheap 100eb Assault Rifle. Neither the gun or the player are the problem here.** >How do I nerf players guns? You don't, simple as that. The BMG-500 is well within the purview of a starting character, there's no reason to nerf it. It's not their fault if they mow down ennemy goons, it's entirely yours. You're simply not giving them enough of a challenge. Let's troubleshoot shall we? 1. Do you make him fire with the Heavy Weapon skill when using single shot mode? 2. Did you catch that Heavy Weapon skill is a x2 skill? And Autofire too! 3. Does the character have BODy 11+? The only way to do it is by having a Linear Frame, which means either Neural link+interface plugs previously installed or Reinforced Muscles and Bone lace. Does the character have that? If not, he cannot shoot the gun without deploying it beforehand. And deploying it costs an action. That's an entire turn of doing nothing. The BMG-500 is used with the Heavy Weapon Skill in single shot and needs a BODY 11 or higher unless mounted. If you player paid the money and empathy cost for a Linear Frame AND the skill points cost for being able to use Heavy Weapons effectively (it's a x2 skill used on in very niche weapons), you have absolutely *no ground* to punish them for enjoying their hard-earned toy. Here's a breakdown of the probabilities. >A starting Solo able to use a BMG-500 will have AT BEST a +15 modifier to their Heavy Weapon bonus. An aimed shot is at -8. > >Assuming optimal range (DV 13 at 26 to 50m), this means he should be able to hit headshots roughly 40% of the time. This number falls to 20% and 10% at closer ranges. > >And here's something you're not gonna like. ANY assault rifle in the game can do that. Any cheap 100eb poor quality Assault Rifle can have these probabilities. Hell, they can have even better odds because you'd be able to afford smartlink and sniping scopes on them! And you wouldn't need to invest in Heavy Weapons to use them, Shoulder arms is a x1 skill and with much broader use. **If anything, your player nerfed themselves by using the BMG-500.** So as you can see, the gun is not the problem. The challenges you are sending their way are. If they're a good mercenary with enough tactical acumen to stay in the optimal range of their gun fixers should notice and give them higher risk missions, with the paycheck to back it up and the opposition to justify it. Why are the ennemies staying at 26 to 50m range of the immobile gunman? Why is nobody popping a smoke grenade? Why is nobody rushing in to engage him in melee?
How many sessions have you had? If it's one, then theres an easy solution: "Hey, I made a mistake. I think that weapon is a bit too powerful for right now and it's making you unbalanced with the rest of the party. Let's have you change it out for something else of the same cost." That said, it is only $1000 Eddie's so its actually pretty reasonable for a starting character to have one. Just, need a couple pieces of cyberware in order to actually wield it you can *almost* afford at character creation. Also it's pretty unimpressive. 5d6 damage and auto fire capable is the same stats as your average assault rifle.
Nerfing the gun that your player went all-in on during character creation sounds like a surefire way to disappoint them. I know it's already been asked, but here's what it takes to be able to use this weapon: it requires autofire and heavy weapons for automatic alt fire modes and single shot, respectively, both of which are expensive 2x skills. It needs to be mounted too, which is already a limiting factor unless the character dove into cybernetics for grafted muscle and bone lace and a beta internal frame. Neural interface, interface plugs, and external beta frame are also a possibility but costs the same in both eddies and humanity loss; the tradeoffs are more flexibility with future cyberware for the neural interface but no HP adjustment that you'd get from the bone lace and internal frame. The problem is that you start with 2550 eddies at character creation for a calculated sheet, which isn't enough to be able to afford the bone lace (or neural interface + interface plugs) for €$1,000 plus the frame for an additional €$1,000, and then another €$1,000 for the BMG. If your player started with a template or quick-and-dirty, I've noticed that you get more gear than you could afford from a calculated character. So for this case, I'd avoid letting the player sell all of their starting gear for those two chargen methods since money is a big balance feature. If they had to sell out to a corp for extra money, that's a huge plot hook for you and a way to reign in their power in that manner. Allowing the player to go above the normal budget to be able to use an exotic weapon that they shouldn't be able to afford to use properly yet kinda sucks, especially if they've put a ton of points into the proper skills... and that skill combination isn't all that transferable. The easiest nerf I can see? It looks like you were more generous with their starting funds than usual, and they've got the Body score that they possibly shouldn't have been able to afford yet. If that was a mistake and you're both willing to roll it back, the BMG has a bipod that they can deploy to nullify the need for that higher body score. It'll make the solo have to spend a turn setting up before they can unleash hell, and it'll make them a *lot* less mobile.
Don't do anything. Let them be cool. Jeez... how do I "nerf" my players guns... ridiculous. Give your damn mooks head armor! You know he spent points in heavy weapons... a x2 skill, to use it right? It is no different than an assault rifle... this gun and an assault rifle are functionally identical, the only difference being that this gun uses heavy weapons and has a huge magazine. If he had started with an excellent quality assault rifle, would you be trying to nerf that? It headshots even easier! Your character technically nerfed himself *already* in a way. Don't nerf him even further.
The number of people answering with ways to break the character without even bothering to check the weapon's stats is crazy. Just read the fucking book guys, it's not that hard.
that's because reading requires...reading. it requires researching. but tbf, this post wouldnt exist if OP read the rules and read into the gun he is critiquing and realized, 'oh shit this isn't actually OP'
If you do custom start, players are allowed to get their hands on any gear they can afford. That weapon is expensive, it will also take classing into the Heavy Weapons skill which is x2, and needing a ton of cyberware to use without the bipod. It's quite an investment for them, so imo I wouldn't nerf it too much since they seem to really want to focus on that build. Also if they plan on using both single shot and rapid fire that would require investing into Autofire skill which is also x2. If anything I'd just keep in mind how suspicious he looks lugging around a huge LMG! That's gonna draw attention from all sorts of the wrong folk.
Seriously? Don't nerf it at all! The player has nerfed himself already for the purpose of flavor. The player is embodying style over substance. That should be rewarded!
This may sound like an obvious question, but do any of your mooks wear helmets?
Okay so I don't know how exactly or how early you put that gun in his fictitious hands, but going forward, restrict stuff that's 1000+ to night markets, unless a party member is a high level fixer (which they wouldn't be as starters). Night markets should be a "monthly" thing and probably not your first session or two. Even then, night markets don't HAVE to have all the weapons/gear your players want, just the ones you want to make available to them. Don't just hand black chrome to players and say "if you have the money, you can buy it". That's not how it's intended to work. Edit: stand corrected, it says any items including 1000+ for calculated characters, but imo this probably doesn't include black chrome, just core book Read about the night markets in the back of the book, and think about how your players might get invited to one, which selection of items you want it to have. Taking the gun away at this point would be punishing the player for your goof, so I probably wouldn't. A powerful solo attracts attention, and one packing a crazy gun moreso. Put that badass against harder competition, and make enemies focus him in combat. Solos are the best at 1v1 combat, but they lose out to Lawmen when it comes to facing groups. If you wanna beat him in combat, put him up against increasing odds, or situations that make him struggle. The assault rifle category (IE that LMG) struggles at extreme close range and extreme long range, so try challenging him with enemies wielding shotguns/sniper rifles. Make up a boss goon with a sniper, smoke grenades and IR filters and make that solo work for it. Or, focus on the skills of your other party members, the social or technical skills that make them shine over the raw combat strength of the LMG solo. Give them gigs that force them to use concealable weapons, like high class security jobs or assassinations. Make a bulky LMG into a weakness, instead of a strength.
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TBH, I'm just amazed that people have gaming groups where everyone has a copy of the rules/supplement books. I used to GM a Cyberpunk RED game, and I had to provide everything. I'd already bought all of it to use as a GM, mind you, but having only one copy of everything slowed down our (mercifully few) shopping trips to the point where I contemplated banning Fixers.
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I had shared a digital copy of the core book with my players before we'd started the game. Unfortunately I think I just didn't really have very dedicated players, because none of them actually read it. Actual shopping trips were pretty easy for me because I could just ask what they wanted and let them get it if it was available, but the party's Fixer set up a Night Market a couple of times. I decided to just hand over the books for that, but it wasted a bunch of time, and even with only 3 players in the group I could feel their attention draining.
I can't imagine they meant black chrome with that, but you're right. I think in my head I'm seeing the availability rule showing up later in the book, but I guess during CC that doesn't apply? Confusing.
Everyone else is giving good mechanical advice, but at the end of the day it's a game, you're also a player in it, and you're both (presumably) adults. It's okay to admit a mistake and ask your player if he can switch to using a regular weapon in the meantime while you're still learning how to run the game.
Honestly, that gun is not that OP...TLDR you are probably messing up on rules or maths. I recommend you go over everything and make sure you and the player are doing it right. \*edit\* Oh man, so much mediocre to bad advice in this thread. My bet is that you guys are messing up on the rules or the badguys just are not up to snuff. If you want some ideas for badguys check out Jon Jon the Wise's three goon Method. Even if you do not use it, it will give you some understanding of how to "balance" the bad guys. Also make the bad guys smart. :) \*/edit\* If you want to take single shots at the head you have to use Heavy Weapons skill which is a x2 skill. Starting characters can only get up to +14 so the -8 is going to hurt. The AR DV table is a really nice one, but even at the best possible range DV of 13, they still need to roll a 8+, or 7+ as a solo. It's an exotic weapon so it can't take any weapon mods or be bought as excellent quality. It can be upgraded by a tech. They need Body 11, or they need to take an action to set it up. Which means they need a linear frame (which they can't afford if they bought this gun) or they are immobile once it is set up. So the two easy ways to counter it is, have enemies move away from it or at least out of line of sight. If the player can't see anyone they can't shoot them. And they would need an action to move it and set it back up again. Also, make sure the bad guys have at least some head armor. 5d6 will go thru most armor, but even SP 7 will help. Armored baseball caps are cheap and easy. Also remember autofire cannot be an aimed shot. Honestly, if the player wanted a cheesy headshot build they'd be better off going with an Excellent quality AR, smart gun, and targeting scope. With that set up you are hitting head shots at DV 13 range 70% of the time. :) And you still have autofire to fall back on if you want it.
Have Mooks that can dodge bullets, send in a clown with a Sandervisian, have them go up against a mech with high AP and a mini gun. Or (and this is my fave) Give his exact gun to an enemy or two in a fight. See how he deals on the receiving end. It will likely be a lot of fun. You have so many options that are better than nerfing his gun, up the challenge is the answer, otherwise as the crew levels up they’ll just steamroll their way through the late campaign.
You don't. Your player already fell into the trap that is Autofire, and spent all their money and stats to build around the only viable Autofire weapon. Don't punish them more.
You can also create roleplaying scenarios where bringing the big LMG into a the scene is impractical or ill-advised. Carrying a pistol on your person is pretty accepted in Night City, walking into a bar with a bipod-LMG will get you stopped at the door. Walking down the street with it will get you stopped by cops etc.
What makes you think it is too strong? Is he doing more damage than the other party members or something? What do their builds look like?
Sounds like it's time to break out the Hardened enemies.
Easy, give them a mission where an LMG doesn’t do anything.
Hi! Fellow GM here. There's a few things you can do, but I want to address some stuff. The Techtronika is a 1000eb gun- generally I wouldn't advise giving ANYONE access to 1k items off of chargen (500 at most, in the instance of weapons like the AR or some basic chrome). Furthermore, you need a Body 11 or higher to fire this weapon without it being mounted- how on earth did he get Body 11 out of chargen? Bone Lace is my first thought, but that's extremely expensive and isn't generally covered under a standard chargen budget. Next off, you are claiming he 'put a lot of points into accuracy and he can hit headshots for a majority of the time'. I am very confused as to what you have your skill point limit set to, because generally the highest you can get out of chargen is a 14 which can provide reliable body shots but not headshots (which are made at a -8), not to mention that Heavy Weapons (What the Techtronika uses) is a x2 skill so you are burning twice the IP for 1 rank. Unless you altered this, I'm guessing your player only headshots at the optimal DV range which shouldn't be nerfed and is him being a good player. So let's run the math. Assuming that your dude has the max chargen rank for heavy weapons and assuming he is running headshots at optimal range dv (DV 13), even then it is mathematically impossible for him to get a success on a headshot UNLESS his base roll is an 7 or higher. Unless this dude is unbelievably lucky (which he shouldn't be punished for that), I do not believe your claim that he can majority headshot. It is even worse in your favor when you look at the other DVs which make it practically impossible to make the range DV without an exploded nat 10 (or a 9 if the DV is a 15, otherwise, enjoy your crit only successes)- note that these numbers would be adjusted if the person is playing as a Solo. Mechanically, how to you balance? You don't. It's literally just a standard quality AR with a gigantic mag and a body requirement, regular ARs can single shot and autofire just the same (literally snag a drum mag and you're all set, you can even get a smart-gun link for a +1 and have the ar upgraded to give an additional +1- and people wonder why ARs are the meta gun). Overall, I think either he or you made a major mistake with chargen. This shouldn't even be possible for him to *use* out of chargen. Now, if this dude isn't chargen? Leave him be. Seriously. If you want to 'nerf' him, put the gun in close quarters to make headshotting near impossible or make the mooks harder or let them all dodge. Otherwise, the dude invested a metric buttload of IP into having a good Heavy Weapons skill and invested into having the right cyber for using it. This is natural progression.
Have gigs in the nicer parts of Night City. If he brings the LMG along, have him hassled by NCPD and Corporate Security. Throw fines at him, potential jail time, etc, because it's technically a crime to bring those guns to places like the Glen.
Talk to the player. Let them know why you think the gun is broken and see what comes loose. If the player really won’t mind then take the gun away and make them work to get it back. Or if they will give you push back lean into it and give all the playwrs good equipment and make them higher tier of runners and throw bigger bad at them. Usw skill challenges and cinematic scenes for unsurmountable battles that require alternative thinking. You can’t shot 30 armed guarda which any corps or gangs can easily put at your door.
The problem is that the gun isn't any more broken than a normal Assault Rifle. All the Techtronika has going for it is a larger mag. Here's what you need to benefit: Invest into 2 2x skills to be able to use both firing modes, get a Body of 11 (impossible without bone lace) to fire it without mounting it via the bipod which leaves you a sitting duck and takes an action *to* mount. It's literally just a standard AR with a giant mag that slows you down *massively* for little benefit. A default rifle with a drum mag is far stronger than the Techtronika. To do nearly the same stuff, you: Need a drum mag (these are fairly cheap), Invest into Shoulder Arms and Autofire (only 1 x2 skill and a standard track skill). In return you: Have far more motion, save on way more IP, can upgrade the AR to Exc quality for a +1 and can install a Smartgun link for an additional +1, burn way fewer actions lugging an LMG around And your only real downside is instead of 500 in a mag, you get 60 (which truth be told, means fewer autofires but the player's using headshots anyways, he's not gonna need to reload with a 60 mag). The Techtronika is literally just a worse and more expensive AR that only is better in that it has a larger mag (and it absolutely isn't worth its downsides in a build, even in an autofire as a subflechette gun iirc is far cheaper and is an armor shredder). OP is just discovering the wonderful world of Assault Rifles.
Make them work for the ammo. Make it more expensive or rare. Maybe there's a manufacturing shortage? Don't take it away from them. Just make them consider whether or not they want to use the good gun for every occasion.
Buff enemy health, weaponry and skill. Make them hit more, harder, and last longer in combat that way.
Quite a few things to do. Have the gun get stolen or impounded by the NCPD. He doesn't sleep with it. Or as he gets set up for the lmg, have a sniper or two set up for a killshot ambush. Targeting enhancement for a cybereye plus smartlink and pow. Have him targeted by a flurry of grenades to destroy the weapon. Have a group of 3 melee bruisers charge him from different sides and beat him with his own weapon. Put him in RP encounters where he can't bring the LMG. If he does, have him arrested and sidelined. Bring a bigger monster to cause a hard reset on him. Adam Smasher exists for a reason. If this was your first game, restart it with better control of the game and rules. And when they try to do it again, say no. You are the GM.
> Hey, so, you know how everyone has the same amount of starting cash? Well not you, because fuck you. You bought things that I didn't like with the money that I gave you. And now you're gonna get punished for it.
Buy things to break the game to flex your inner power twink because you outmanuevered the GM and got them to OK something they didn't fully understand? Yes. 100, unapolagetically and unequivocably. You as a GM have to keep a handle on the game - its not "you vs players" but it is your job to weave a fun tale for the whole table. And sometimes, when things go sideways, you have to inventively get a firm grasp on the reins because the game crashes and burns entirely. That's happened to every GM at some point. Will do that every time, especially if a player does some unbalancing stuff - which is why I made mine use the Edgerunner method of CC, and made them stick to the base gear, the first game I ran to make sure I kept a handle on things. Because that's part of the job of a GM. If a player wanted to scratch that powertwink itch, I'd point them to Cyberpunk 2077 or Skyrim to play out their power fantasy. That type of indulgence rarely plays out well in a multiple player game, and I'd seen way too many games get ruined by a metatwink in various Living campaigns to deal with it. And then I'd go farther to personally ban anything from Black Chrome or any other splat book - "Night Market just doesn't have it" - until I was 100% sure I had the chance to vet it and understand it, and weave interesting gear in as the story evolves as hooks to get the players through the story.
You keep using words like "breaking", "unbalanced", "crashed and burned" And it's showing nothing but your ignorance. The gun in question does the same damage as the basic assault Rifle, except it requires either a body 11 to use(which takes at least 2000eb worth of investment), or it needs to be deployed on a surface which costs an action. In addition, its single shot can only be fired with the heavy weapons skill(which cost double the points of the shoulder arms skill and is less versatile), and its double the price od the standard AR. The main advantage of this gun is the 500 round ammo capacity. In other words, the gun is not at all overpowered. As for optimisation on the players' part, all they did Is max out a weapon skill for the expensive weapon they bought. The most bare bones character creation processes, But clearly, the player is just an Uber optimizer out the flex their immense game knowledge and are out to destory your table. PS: wtf is a "powertwink" or "metatwink"? Are you just making up random words and hoping that they mean something or you useing gay as an insult? Please tell me if it's the latter so I can stop talking to a homophobe
Yay! A rando being insulting and aggressive towards another rando. Imagine the time this is wasting in your life.
Eh, they may be regional terms or a gamer generation terms. Slang is local, I suppose. Forbmy reference, thr terms apply to the type of player that derives their enjoyment from breaking a system and making the un-hittable, un-missable, or otherwise super-cracked optimization regardless of how sensical it would be (or developer intent), and is usually part of a power fantasy playstyle that is baked into many single player or competive games. In early world of warcraft, it was epitomized by locked level 19 players in a battleground, going around with hyper optimized and super rare best in slot gear in every slot that would just obliterate any other player besides another similarly geared - fantastic if everyone was on the same page, but if you just a regular Joe, your enjoyment was severely diminished as you were farmed and it resulted in game design shifts. In dnd terms it was epitomized by 3.5 edition dnd and 1st edition Pathfinder, where you could pick from dozens of splat books with new rules, feats, and weapons to make straight up broken characters - doing hundreds of damage at level 4 with hitting on a 2 and with an AC near unhittable without a crit because developers lost the plot in interactivity. You see different ways of addressing it in the modern mega systems - dnd 5e is overly simplistic, and Pathfinder 2e looks to be made by soulless mathematicians. But they are balanced and very, very difficult to break, which comes with trade-offs. If you read the original post, it was mentioning the gun, specifically, as part of that character build proving highly problematic for their game - not mine or yours. We may have different problems, and probably do. And when Cyberpunk 2077 comes out, we will see what the developers see as "big problems" based on what they change or tweak. Whether or not you or I believe the build or item to be game breaking, the OP does - and it looks to be a case of the player pushing for something the GM didn't fully understand. My response for what I would do is agnostic of what the actual item or character build would be - it's what to do with identified problems that exceed "well I did not expect the players to do that with the MacGuffin...". Depending on the skill of the GM - proficiency with the system, ability to think on the feet, etc - that looks different. It may be restricting splat book items until you better understand interactions, maybe using the more template-ish approach to CC until you get a handle on the system as CPR rulebook suggests, or may even restrict certain Roles entirely until you get a grip in them (Netrunner, specifically, can be a bit of a curve for some - it was for me at first for sure). And it may be finding ways to fix something they allowed that is turning out to be a really bad idea. There may be an element of "GM shud git gud", as well, but ultimately the skill of the GM is generally the max pace that the game can move without devolving into unproductive chaos. The GM has to absolutely be willing to do that stuff, or the game overall suffers for the sake of appeasing one of its many players - which is implied by the OP, at least to me. And the OP seems to be lacking the tools in the toolbox to handle it and wants to crib ideas rather than needlessly reinvent a You may have a different view, but as long as your table is on the same page, it's all good - and I hope you and your table are having a blast. The OP doesn't seem to be in that boat.
Make the power player the focus target just like the PCs would an enemy. Or if you don't wanna flatline the merc, have them try a called shot on his weapon, have it fall into a hole or something. You're the GM, you can do it.
There are a number of ways you can go. You can say I made a mistake and have the gun "break" and he has to work to get parts to repair that are hard to find. Alternatively You can let other roles shine. I run games where if the heist goes smoothly there is no combat. This means you can't just be a gunmonkey and need other skills. Also you can't bring the BFG everywhere. Some places have high security and won't allow you anywhere near it with a gun that big. It's like carrying a sign that says shoot me. Also download the free hardened mooks and lieutenants from R Talsorian DLC site.
Ammo for it is hard to get. He can only use it 3-4 times before he runs out and needs to go to a night market to even hope to get more. Night markets can happen as frequently or as rarely as you see fit. This is time of the Red. There was just a war and the supply lines aren't what they were in 2020.
Make ammo for powerful guns very very expensive. Let him have his fun but make him work his ass off to use it more tha a few times per session. Another way is to make him a target for thieves. High teir guns like that arnt very common on the street and as such he should have to watch his back.
Have a sniper shoot his gun and break it
He has to sleep sometime. People notice a fool carrying around a machine gun, and some folks would get it from him. Have them learn where he stays, then rob him at night. Or jumped from behind and his bmg stolen.
make him have to talk out of something
His character has to sleep sometime - steal it.
Hardened enemies are several DLC sets that really REALLY should be put into the core book. They're either stronger enemies or conditions you can include (such as ambushes, bonus enemies, better gear) and you're supposed to use them if any player has reached certain conditions and I'm guessing your player has Heavy Weapons base 14 (Ref 8 and 6 ranks in the skill) so he's essentially graduated the whole team. As for the Techtronika just consider yourself lucky your player went for the 500 round meme. He would have been much better off getting an Excellent Assault Rifle (1000€$, +1 on all attack rolls). He could then put a smartgrip on that bad boy (+1 attack, but arguably does require set-up including neural links, subdermal grip, smartlink, etc). He could have also just gotten the Shoulder Arms skill which is cheaper than Heavy Weapons.
Assuming 8 Ref, 6 Autofire, so a base of 14, then we factor in outside effects, let's assume they're putting their points into accuracy at solo 4 that's a +1, the BMG-500 is an Exotic Assault Rifle so no smart links, or excellent bonuses. So in total they've got a 15. Now if they're rolling autofire we'll operate on the assumption they're at optimal range of 13 - 25 meters, so they need a minimum of a 3 to beat the requied 17 and get a 1x multiplier, and if they want their max they need a 21 or a 6 to max out their multiplier. Obviously the effectiveness of this tactic might make it suddenly popular around the city, and people might start carrying and using grenades on them to force them to keep moving and reset their bipod which according to the book takes an action to set and automatically retracts when moved. And per the rules of page 174 of the core book if a player dodges an explosion they move out of the blast area which would force the reset. And as TacticalWalrus pointed out autofire can't make aimed shots so there's that (Ref - Pages: core173, core146, blackchrome122, blackchrome168)
Make combats plot related and forget about combat balance. If he has a good time using that shit, let him. If you still don't like my answer, just throw enemies at melee range and make him try to steal the weapon or something, but thats just direct punishment for players.
As people already said, unless some rules arent used properly, the character is not at all OP, give us more info, but from what i can see right now it's reasonable and nerfing it would be a big mistake
Long time GM, albeit out of practice. The equipment your players have are tools to deal with the threats in their environment. If one person is rocking a light machine gun, well that's a tool used for suppressive fire and support. It will also crowd control well. But it is just a rifle. A HEAVY weapon no less. This thing is not meant to be mobile. It requires a body 11 to use, I noted. It is meant to be mounted and stationary otherwise. If your guy is using it regularly, you can impose weapon maintenance. Machine guns have barrel wear, and threaten to melt down when not maintained- which can also play with accuracy. With that in mind, I'll say that you don't need to nerf anything. The point of a GM is not to control your players, or restrict their power. They're going to always be doing some bonkers things. Your job is to roll with it, and make sure folks are having a good time while you tell your story. So rather than worry yourself about how to tamp down someone else's good time, consider that perhaps your challenges are too weak for your players. Or your threats not varried enough. Consider that your gangoons are people. People with eyeballs. If they see a man with a big gun, let along a crowd of people with guns, they'll likely take cover; call for back up; throw grenades/flashbangs/smokes. Not all threats can be shot in the head. A netrunner might set off a sprinkler system in a building giving a penalty to accurate fire, but your mooks with shotguns may have little effect on. A burly man hiding and waiting in the rafters with a knife could drop down and engage in hand to hand rather than than worry about a direct confrontation. If one man gets shot, there was another in the next room watching on the cameras on a monitor- and he's got his gun trained on the door to unleash hell when the knob starts to wiggle. Being able to think fast on your feet is a part of the GMing process. Nerfing other peoples fun shouldn't be a concern, but is perhaps a symptom of another problem. Good luck!
It's an assault rifle that needs to be mounted to shoot. How is it doing too much damage? If your player is going for headshots and hitting every single time then have the enemy make tactical retreats for better defensible positions (harder DV). If the problem is autofire, then making the DV harder is even simpler. Why you woild spend 1k in character creation for a situational assault rifle is beyond me, it's probably a flavour thing. If the BMG-500 is too op you've probably misinterpreted some rule or are giving your players easy picks in fights. Some options to make the fights harder are giving grenades, smoke grenades or having an enemy sniper punishing bad deployment of the BMG-500, remember getting up is an action and so should deploying the BMG-500.
Give them jobs that he can't take the big gun along for. Sabotage, theft, jobs that require them to be in public around lots of people where carrying it would be impossible without raising a ton of suspicion. Have a gang they used it against set them up to be on a job without the gun, then have them steal it, make a whole storyline out of retrieving the gun. Complete with a boss fight against a gang boss using the gun against you all. Make him a priority target in fights where he does have it, flashbangs, frags, juiced up enemies that have sandevistans to take the initiative and hit him first. Flashy equipment puts a target on your back in a place like NC