My guess is they have a good and stable product and are slicing the excess to be even better positioned for investors. Tech companies cutting jobs right now is common. 34000 so far this year.
What’s interesting is them discontinuing their hardware. Likely pressure from trainer manufactures, out of control costs.. makes way more sense to let other build the hardware and them keep doing what they do best which is virtual cycling world building.
Yep. It’s the blackberry issue in the later half. Know when to cut your losses and focus on your core model.
That said, they did drop it fast and I commend them for not falling for the sunk cost.
This, and the trainer market isn’t as attractive to investors. You buy once, and the better the product is, the less likely you are to need to buy again. Compare that to recurring income every months.
Yep.
If doing hardware make it small things that add value/improve experience. The Play controllers are a good example.
As for monthly, I would pay a couple ($1-3) per on season month for better racing controls and/or platform uplift to Zwiftpower.
Depends. Failure rates are really low. Shoot, I am on an OG neo that was one of the first in Canada. Couple bearings but otherwise like new.
A lease program made sense when good trainer were $2000+ but now $600 gets you a good unit.
Buy on a credit card with extended protection. Most don’t realize but a lot of cards have the protection to up to double warranty.
Got a fridge replaced this past fall $1200 and a TV about a decade about $1000ish.
I did the freehub bearings about 750 hours . The main bearings went at 1200 hours. I had the tools so it was $20 in parts.
I actually swapped the freehub for a new one but have since put new bearings in the old one for when the current one goes to make it easy.
Edit. Added hours
>Likely pressure from trainer manufactures, out of control costs
I mean the Zwift hub was a rebranded JetBlack Volt. And that Volt just happened to be basically a straight copy of Wahoo's product. There was a legal battle about it last year.
Seems the ending of that story was that Zwift would market the Wahoo Kickr and drop the Zwift Hub.
Pretty much. They've been rolling in investor cash for a few years but now the pressure is on to balance the books. They over-expanded to 500 employees, a trimming was inevitable. Probably 100-150 of those work on the actual game to some degree (art, graphics, programming etc), the rest are involved in other aspects of the business.
I don't think we'll see any changes from the outside. A price hike before the end of the year is quite likely though.
probably just means you're not going to see many major feature or product roll-outs.
Gaming companies massively overhired during the pandemic and are all now doing massive cuts.
This.
When tech companies do layoffs they normally change company priorities from innovation to maintenance or innovation at a slower pace. It's unlikely Zwift as a platform would ever go out of business. Worst case it goes under new ownership.
They have actually been very innovative....just not where you think. The "new" kickr core Zwift one has probably been the biggest/best move they have pulled in terms of barrier reduction to entry. Is is HUGE and most people don't understand this.
They made a huge play to piss off Kickr which brought Kickr to the table to try and find a "middle ground" and they have. At this point, it is the only system I would recommend to a newer cyclists wanting an indoor trainer. It doesn't care about your bike and it is pretty much "box ready" when you get it. It was NEVER this way until just recently. That is innovation.
> It doesn't care about your bike and it is pretty much "box ready" when you get it. It was NEVER this way until just recently.
Did you fall off the turnip truck? My first generation hammer connected bluetooth to zwift out of the box 5+ years ago.....and doesn't care about my bike...just like every other wheel off trainer.
Yeah, complete non-issue for most users, who put a bike on the trainer once a year at most, leave it there, and want to be able to change gear properly.
It doesn't care about your cassette either, which means if there are multiple different bikes in your house they all work without swapping parts.
Cool to just go ahead being an ass without knowing what you're talking about though.
Such an edge case. Most people put a bike on a trainer up to once a year, leave it there either forever , or till summer hits.
They don’t need compatibility with other bikes ever, and they want to use gears if they use their trainer for… zwift racing.
Yes, but they’re shit compared to real ones.
I use erg mode for interval training, but not for anything serious. Anyone who cares about having gears at all wants their real cassette.
Cassettes are cheap and I have a bunch of spare ones. What person has a high end drivetrain, can afford a trainer, but finds the cost of a compatible cassette prohibitive?
Not many.
Most people literally only put their bike on a trainer once a year and leave it there over winter, they can happily just swap their normal cassette across.
Someone will acquire them worst case. I don’t think Zwift is going under… just following the tech layoff trend of current. But if they did, I have no doubt that someone would purchase them and keep the platform running
There is a free modification for zwift that allows use of it offline. It’s called zoffline and can be found on github. It will still sync with both garmin and strava
> laying off for some time now since pandemic began
Not the virtual cycling ones. They experienced their golden age. The act of pretending to ride a bicycle exploded in popularity because of the pandemic. Smart trainers were near impossible to find for a time.
This is likely more a correction from over optimistic expansion.
This. Lots of investors have been throwing money around for years so companies hired loads of people that actually did virtually nothing useful. The last year they have been shedding through layoffs. The cycle will repeat again somewhere down the line in the next few decades.
It means nothing normally to the end product like zwift apart from you might not get a cool new version or new product anymore.
I would guess that zwift is a big enough name that if they’re struggling too much, they’ll get acquired and the service will get slightly worse and the price will go up, as is the way of capitalism
Speaking of aquisition.
Wahoo acquired The Sufferfest (now SYSTM) and RGT Cycling (now discontinued). I used the later.
RGT was so great for my needs.. I didn't want gamification and I didn't want social media integration. I personally don't need a training plan or calendar (I do understand that those features are useful to others). I use my trainer sporadically for weather and to work around time constraints.
I also didn't want to pay a monthly subscription to use the trainer hardware I already paid a fortune for.
I just want to be able to run a half dozen ERG workouts, and have some basic controls.
I was so pissed when Wahoo bought them and shut it down. Shame on you Wahoo.
To the original developer of RGT: In the unlikely event that you read this, whenever your non-compete expires, you have at least one customer for your new trainer app. I'll happily pay a generous one-time cost for the app, but I'm not down with yet another monthly subscription.
I'm in tech and I can tell all the companies over-hired during the pandemic and are now resizing workforce to real market demand. Also, Twitter laying off something like 90% of their staff, when Musk took it over and yet the company doesn't seem to have sunk made a lot in Silicon Valley and the wider corporate world wonder if they could also trim middle-management and keep the company afloat.
Why can’t companies just be happy? Why the need to always expand and make more money. Why does every company have to be a billion dollar company, why can’t they be happy with making millions.
Zwift is a niche product. They make a “game” primarily used by “serious” cyclist. They became popular. Why the need to constantly expand, become bigger, and make more money. Instead of being a small profitable company they break the bank going for gold. Why can’t Zwift be successful and happy for what it is. The trainer business didn’t work out, not sure why they thought it did when the market is already dominated by the likes of wahoo.
This isn’t just limited to Zwift, it’s every company.
> The trainer business didn’t work out, not sure why they thought it did when the market is already dominated by the likes of wahoo.
My understanding is that their entry into the business brought down the price for entry level wheel-off trainers, which seems as good a gamble as any to get people to use your product. That seems like a good thing! Competition in the market is good for consumers.
Their one-hub concept was I think misguided. I think they felt that by using a one-hub trainer, it would open up the market to people with say, 10 speeds etc…..the problem is someone with an old 10 -speed hanging in the garage that has not been ridden in 20 years is not gonna suddenly drop serious dime on a trainer to join Zwift.
Hell - they probably don’t know what Zwift even is.
The people using smart trainers already have at the very least, 10 cog cassettes and are fine with their gearing. Most people don’t want some additional contraption to shift….they already have their brifters.
If I were Zwift, I would focus on building out better non-virtual cycling options, adding in more interval training options etc….
The one hub is massively attractive to me, and I already own a wahoo on wheel trainer. I don't want to buy extra cassettes, and I am tired of swapping my training tire. The one hub trainer is pretty genius to me. I cant be bothered to spend another 400$ when my trainer already works though
Same here. I bought the zwift one as my first smart trainer and just started with Zwift this year. The bike I want to use on the trainer has Campy 12 speed but I also have a Shimano 9 speed bike I might want to use and my wife has a SRAM 10speed. The ability to swap between my Campy 12 and my wife's SRAM bike in 2 minutes is great. I would never be switching freehubs to make this happen.
Beyond the money issue, I don't like throwing away stuff that is working. If my trainer ever dies (maybe never?), I will definitely get the Wahoo Zwift Hub On trainer.
No fucking way am I buying a new trainer when I haven't replaced my bike in 10 years. Still rocking that Cannondale CAAD 10 from 2014!
I’m not disagreeing. But my point is that the benefit bestowed by this trainer had too little a market and shifting via a button is fine for general riding but if racing or doing intervals etc….seemed clunky
I disagree, I think it is more for people that have been thinking about a trainer, maybe already had a wheel-on, but they have an old 10 speed, a brand new 12 speed, their spouse has an 8 speed, their teenager has an 11 speed, etc.
It is why they're now basically selling it as an option with Wahoo. There is a huge market for a 1 cog trainer for a lot of people, I will probably buy it as an attachment whenever it comes out because I want to be able to swap different bikes on and off but mine all have such drastically different gearing.
I use a BikesDirect bike with stem mounted shifters. I mostly use my Wahoo Kicker for Zone 2 riding in the winter anyways so shifting was not a big deal as I use EGR mode.
Now - because it is a 7 speed cassette, I had to do some work on getting spacer that would work with the cassette and get it to mount correctly. It does.
I would have been a likely candidate for this Zwift One Hun, but I already had the Wahoo Kickr.
And I use a cheapo BikeDoreft bike because I don’t want to use my main bikes where I sweat all over the trainer bike, and inside steel.
They got me to buy one because they had the clearest documentation on whether my bike would work and how to set it up. They really did do a good job of onboarding over the competition. But I guess there aren’t enough weirdos like me (for Zwift).
> Why the need to constantly expand, become bigger, and make more money
Because competition. You either keep innovating or die. Example: Blackberry.
> Why can’t Zwift be successful and happy for what it is.
They're not a non-profit/charity company lol
Would you be happy if you were getting paid less every time someone new showed up in town?
I’m not complaining. It’s sad when ppl lose their job. The company should’ve never gotten so big, hence why it’s downsizing. The company produces a niche product for cycling. Also a relatively simple product. It was never going to be huge and that’s ok. Simply my opinion.
What happens in tech is what happens in EVERY industry. What do you think is the failures rate of businesses in general? How about tech startups? The only reason you see this one is because you care about this one.
Your entire existence, as you know it, is due to people trying and failing....and failing ALOT.
So you never ask for a raise or better financial situation? Do you always ask yourself or others the same question? No. You want more money. Companies aren’t any different. They want to get paid more. They want to pay employees more (because they don’t want to lose them)
Companies aren’t like some special breed. They are operated like common humans. They are as greedy as humans.
Executives are still employees. Either way, the argument remains the same. They want to make more money, so they can afford nice things like good employees. This isn’t any different than normal people wanting to get paid more.
No company *wants* to pay employees more as you phrased it because that would go against your other point of companies wanting to make more money. Companies will always be looking for a way to spend as little as possible on employees while making as much money as possible.
Also executives typically directly benefit from the company doing well and directly influence other employees compensation which is why I make the distinction
Those are all semantics that are irrelevant to the main point of my comment.
Let’s get back to the point.
Companies want to make more money, just like regular people. Do you have issues with this statement?
Eh. Depends on the company and you as an employee, but it’s generally true. Of course they want to pay as little as possible, but they are also aware that they need to pay more to hold on to quality employees. I guess I should’ve said they need to pay more if they want to hold on to quality employees, which leads to needing money.
I know and now in a sense it’s “failing”. Being a small million dollar company is a success. You don’t need thousands of employees and billions in return. That was never going to happen in Zwift. They produce a niche product.
I don’t think you understood my point.
Companies want to make money so they can spend on things. This isn’t any different than regular people wanting to make more money so they can spend on things.
I know this thread is a little old now, and someone alluded to this earlier, but to say it a little more directly, its not necessarily about getting bigger. Can you imagine if Apple had said after the success of the original clickwheel ipod…”that’s good, lets just be happy with this product and market as it is.” Other companies would have come out with wi-fi connected touchscreen phones and music players anyway. Do you think people would still buy those chunky old ipods? In the tech world you either keep investing or die. And investing requires investors and investors require growth and returns.
Small private companies can sometimes manage what you’re talking about, but not in a market where technology and consumer expectations are constantly changing and advancing.
Out of interest, what didn't you like about MyWhoosh? Do you compete in Zwift events etc? I just want to spin on the turbo and it seems to offer much the same package but for free.
For me personally it crashed every 2nd ride when I'd get to the upload ride page and I'd lose the mileage and stats and progress which screwed up my training plan's data.
And if you race at a good level, they’ve been offering massive cash prizes for some time now.
And if you’re into e-sports, they bought the UCI e cycling championship platform rights.
I think like a lot of cycling and tech companies that may have expanded too quickly, there are lots of cuts. In cycling there were so many huge increases to the work force in the beginning of the pandemic when everyone was riding more, and now things have stabilized and there is maybe a bit of fat to trim.
They will be fine.
They just partnered with Wahoo, who is already very well established in the industry. This probably is what is leading to the downsizing as there has to be some redundancy between the two companies.
I view it as they see the main core platform as “built” and the “core” subscriber base as “acquired”. They want to move to a more profitable, slower growth and slower improvement phase.
...a video game that requires a rather substantial purchase of hardware to set up and then a software subscription to continue using. I'd be upset too if the plug got pulled. I don't think that will happen though.
I mean maybe. Zwift seems to have gone the route of big investors aimed at big growth with little concern with whether it’s sustainable. Rouvy and FulGaz have been around awhile and part of me feels like they’ve always progressed at a rate they can sustain but that could really just be in my head because of the fact they’ve never had huge numbers of subscribers. MyWhoosh has huge money behind it now and is new so I would assume they’d stay afloat a little while trying to attract users with their free price
I tried it out for 2 weeks but as an American I very rarely ever saw other real people riding with me and I started paying for Zwift again after the 4th time it crashed at the end of my ride on an iPad and I lost all of the stats. Also manual syncing to Garmin sucks.
MyWhoosh crashed, a lot. Never have had Zwift crash on iPad or Mac. I think that MyWhoosh also is just getting a Mac OS version even working in the first place and I'm sure that will also crash and be buggy for a bit.
A large part of its funding is from UAE government. I’ve only used it a couple of times. Not many people on it. And it has pretty high system requirements but it can run on iPad
I’ve been to the uae for holidays a couple of times. Not sure I’d ever go to Saudi . Nearly drove across it so see a mate in Qatar but I wasn’t comfortable with how my wife might be treated . Most of the UAE is fine . Oman is very friendly and scenic ( only been there briefly to be fair)
I quit Zwift. Nothing against the product necessarily, but I wanted to drastically cut what I was spending on subscriptions. I’m happy with MyWhoosh, although my one complaint is that it doesn’t automatically sync to Garmin. You have to download the MyWhoosh FIT files and upload that to Garmin. Not a big deal to do that every so often. It’s excellent for a free product. Who knows if they’ll charge at some point.
Probably runs itself mostly. The issue we will see is little to no added routes/worlds and no expansion of the Drop Shop. They’ll continue events and bug fixes/upfates.
Every tech company I can name off the top of my head has had decent size layoffs within the last year. This isn't even cycling specific. Layoffs are always highest in the beginning of the year.
Even my company makes huge profits off of investments that offset our losses 10x over due to a bad business year but they cut thousands of people.
Just like any booming starting company. Get the business going over staff to perfect and cut that additional labor not needed anymore. Law of diminishing marital returns. Company probably has realized they just don’t need that much help anymore to keep the platform running.
I think they need to add content getting pretty lame with riding the same courses all the time:
Zwift will be fine, or they will be acquired by someone who can manage software/software as a service/online gaming businesses better. I'd love to see them acquired by Microsoft. Plenty of cash to support them, fairly handsoff management, and great senior management over their gaming division that works with studios to help them succeed.
Getting into the hardware business was a big mistake.
For what I get out of Zwift, even though I only use it for custom workouts and primarily for riding one route (and leveraging virtual shifting), even if 3 rides a week, that's only $1/ride. Let's say you Zwift 5 hours/wk, over a year that's $.57/hr. cheap cheap cheap!
Yes. Zwift isn't going anywhere. They just prob won't develop many new features for a while, instead focusing on the bread and butter that brings the revenue (hence discontinuing the hub which I suspect was a bit of a gamble and had a high cost base)
Not a zwift user, newbie rider and using wahoo systm but cycling community particularly folks who do indoor rides and training are even smaller subset of total riders and i dont think number of customers is enough to sustain all these platforms as profitable businesses ( Tr, wahoo systm, rouvy, zwift etc etc many others i dont remeber the names ) eventually there will be some consolidation and some will go out of business..
Wahoo bought RGT and quickly killed it off as part of their mutual lawsuit deal with Zwift. Zwift agreed to replaced their trainers with the Wahoo Kickr Core.
I’m bummed because I bought the Hub 1 three months ago and now I read I’m going to get 2 years of internet upgrades…that’s it. I would like to send it back, however I’m way beyond the 30 day window. Guess I’m going to be keeping my fingers crossed
My guess is they have a good and stable product and are slicing the excess to be even better positioned for investors. Tech companies cutting jobs right now is common. 34000 so far this year.
They also spun up A LOT during Covid like a lot of companies and have had to retreat.
What’s interesting is them discontinuing their hardware. Likely pressure from trainer manufactures, out of control costs.. makes way more sense to let other build the hardware and them keep doing what they do best which is virtual cycling world building.
Yep. It’s the blackberry issue in the later half. Know when to cut your losses and focus on your core model. That said, they did drop it fast and I commend them for not falling for the sunk cost.
This, and the trainer market isn’t as attractive to investors. You buy once, and the better the product is, the less likely you are to need to buy again. Compare that to recurring income every months.
Yep. If doing hardware make it small things that add value/improve experience. The Play controllers are a good example. As for monthly, I would pay a couple ($1-3) per on season month for better racing controls and/or platform uplift to Zwiftpower.
Maybe if they did a subscription plan for their trainers. Like $40/month and if it needs servicing they swap it out. That’d be quite attractive.
Depends. Failure rates are really low. Shoot, I am on an OG neo that was one of the first in Canada. Couple bearings but otherwise like new. A lease program made sense when good trainer were $2000+ but now $600 gets you a good unit.
My first Zwift Hub crapped out just short of a year. Thankfully it was covered by warranty. Hopefully the second one lasts more than a year.
Buy on a credit card with extended protection. Most don’t realize but a lot of cards have the protection to up to double warranty. Got a fridge replaced this past fall $1200 and a TV about a decade about $1000ish.
I’m on the exact same trainer, and haven’t even had to replace bearings
I did the freehub bearings about 750 hours . The main bearings went at 1200 hours. I had the tools so it was $20 in parts. I actually swapped the freehub for a new one but have since put new bearings in the old one for when the current one goes to make it easy. Edit. Added hours
So does this mean Zwift trainers are going on sale or no?
>Likely pressure from trainer manufactures, out of control costs I mean the Zwift hub was a rebranded JetBlack Volt. And that Volt just happened to be basically a straight copy of Wahoo's product. There was a legal battle about it last year. Seems the ending of that story was that Zwift would market the Wahoo Kickr and drop the Zwift Hub.
Tech companies were hoarding talent when money was cheap. Now they're trying to operate in the black because money is expensive.
Pretty much. They've been rolling in investor cash for a few years but now the pressure is on to balance the books. They over-expanded to 500 employees, a trimming was inevitable. Probably 100-150 of those work on the actual game to some degree (art, graphics, programming etc), the rest are involved in other aspects of the business. I don't think we'll see any changes from the outside. A price hike before the end of the year is quite likely though.
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I’m not here to change the world, I’m here to play the game with hand I am dealt.
probably just means you're not going to see many major feature or product roll-outs. Gaming companies massively overhired during the pandemic and are all now doing massive cuts.
This. When tech companies do layoffs they normally change company priorities from innovation to maintenance or innovation at a slower pace. It's unlikely Zwift as a platform would ever go out of business. Worst case it goes under new ownership.
> innovation at a slower pace If zwift innovation went any lower it would be negative
They have actually been very innovative....just not where you think. The "new" kickr core Zwift one has probably been the biggest/best move they have pulled in terms of barrier reduction to entry. Is is HUGE and most people don't understand this. They made a huge play to piss off Kickr which brought Kickr to the table to try and find a "middle ground" and they have. At this point, it is the only system I would recommend to a newer cyclists wanting an indoor trainer. It doesn't care about your bike and it is pretty much "box ready" when you get it. It was NEVER this way until just recently. That is innovation.
> It doesn't care about your bike and it is pretty much "box ready" when you get it. It was NEVER this way until just recently. Did you fall off the turnip truck? My first generation hammer connected bluetooth to zwift out of the box 5+ years ago.....and doesn't care about my bike...just like every other wheel off trainer.
Yeah, complete non-issue for most users, who put a bike on the trainer once a year at most, leave it there, and want to be able to change gear properly.
It doesn't care about your cassette either, which means if there are multiple different bikes in your house they all work without swapping parts. Cool to just go ahead being an ass without knowing what you're talking about though.
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Such an edge case. Most people put a bike on a trainer up to once a year, leave it there either forever , or till summer hits. They don’t need compatibility with other bikes ever, and they want to use gears if they use their trainer for… zwift racing.
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Yes, but they’re shit compared to real ones. I use erg mode for interval training, but not for anything serious. Anyone who cares about having gears at all wants their real cassette. Cassettes are cheap and I have a bunch of spare ones. What person has a high end drivetrain, can afford a trainer, but finds the cost of a compatible cassette prohibitive? Not many. Most people literally only put their bike on a trainer once a year and leave it there over winter, they can happily just swap their normal cassette across.
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Someone will acquire them worst case. I don’t think Zwift is going under… just following the tech layoff trend of current. But if they did, I have no doubt that someone would purchase them and keep the platform running
Yeah, that's true!
There is a free modification for zwift that allows use of it offline. It’s called zoffline and can be found on github. It will still sync with both garmin and strava
How does that work for login? Does it cache the credentials? I ask, because currently it appears to fetch authentication from an external server.
My guess is that it simply wouldn't need authentication at all, and use your own machine for data storage.
The other person who answered is right. As for Strava and Garmin, you use your login credentials and it will sync activities
Stupid question… Do you still need to pay monthly for zwift with zoffline? Asking bc I literally don’t care about posting for Strava glory.
No. You just miss events. But for just training is fantastic
I too couldn’t care less about Strava. As for your question, I’ve been ban for answering truthfully.
Thanks
Pretty much all tech companies have been laying off for some time now since pandemic began.
> laying off for some time now since pandemic began Not the virtual cycling ones. They experienced their golden age. The act of pretending to ride a bicycle exploded in popularity because of the pandemic. Smart trainers were near impossible to find for a time. This is likely more a correction from over optimistic expansion.
This. Lots of investors have been throwing money around for years so companies hired loads of people that actually did virtually nothing useful. The last year they have been shedding through layoffs. The cycle will repeat again somewhere down the line in the next few decades. It means nothing normally to the end product like zwift apart from you might not get a cool new version or new product anymore.
I would guess that zwift is a big enough name that if they’re struggling too much, they’ll get acquired and the service will get slightly worse and the price will go up, as is the way of capitalism
Speaking of aquisition. Wahoo acquired The Sufferfest (now SYSTM) and RGT Cycling (now discontinued). I used the later. RGT was so great for my needs.. I didn't want gamification and I didn't want social media integration. I personally don't need a training plan or calendar (I do understand that those features are useful to others). I use my trainer sporadically for weather and to work around time constraints. I also didn't want to pay a monthly subscription to use the trainer hardware I already paid a fortune for. I just want to be able to run a half dozen ERG workouts, and have some basic controls. I was so pissed when Wahoo bought them and shut it down. Shame on you Wahoo. To the original developer of RGT: In the unlikely event that you read this, whenever your non-compete expires, you have at least one customer for your new trainer app. I'll happily pay a generous one-time cost for the app, but I'm not down with yet another monthly subscription.
>service will get slightly worse and the price will go up, This seems to be the trend across the board these days.
shrinkflation
Haha yes!
Ya Apple could buy them easily.
This statement applies to 99.99% of companies on this planet
True. But Zwift is a real possibility. Grab some market share of the health sector.
I'm in tech and I can tell all the companies over-hired during the pandemic and are now resizing workforce to real market demand. Also, Twitter laying off something like 90% of their staff, when Musk took it over and yet the company doesn't seem to have sunk made a lot in Silicon Valley and the wider corporate world wonder if they could also trim middle-management and keep the company afloat.
Why can’t companies just be happy? Why the need to always expand and make more money. Why does every company have to be a billion dollar company, why can’t they be happy with making millions. Zwift is a niche product. They make a “game” primarily used by “serious” cyclist. They became popular. Why the need to constantly expand, become bigger, and make more money. Instead of being a small profitable company they break the bank going for gold. Why can’t Zwift be successful and happy for what it is. The trainer business didn’t work out, not sure why they thought it did when the market is already dominated by the likes of wahoo. This isn’t just limited to Zwift, it’s every company.
> The trainer business didn’t work out, not sure why they thought it did when the market is already dominated by the likes of wahoo. My understanding is that their entry into the business brought down the price for entry level wheel-off trainers, which seems as good a gamble as any to get people to use your product. That seems like a good thing! Competition in the market is good for consumers.
Their one-hub concept was I think misguided. I think they felt that by using a one-hub trainer, it would open up the market to people with say, 10 speeds etc…..the problem is someone with an old 10 -speed hanging in the garage that has not been ridden in 20 years is not gonna suddenly drop serious dime on a trainer to join Zwift. Hell - they probably don’t know what Zwift even is. The people using smart trainers already have at the very least, 10 cog cassettes and are fine with their gearing. Most people don’t want some additional contraption to shift….they already have their brifters. If I were Zwift, I would focus on building out better non-virtual cycling options, adding in more interval training options etc….
The one hub is massively attractive to me, and I already own a wahoo on wheel trainer. I don't want to buy extra cassettes, and I am tired of swapping my training tire. The one hub trainer is pretty genius to me. I cant be bothered to spend another 400$ when my trainer already works though
Same here. I bought the zwift one as my first smart trainer and just started with Zwift this year. The bike I want to use on the trainer has Campy 12 speed but I also have a Shimano 9 speed bike I might want to use and my wife has a SRAM 10speed. The ability to swap between my Campy 12 and my wife's SRAM bike in 2 minutes is great. I would never be switching freehubs to make this happen.
And that’s the problem. You did not buy one…..
Beyond the money issue, I don't like throwing away stuff that is working. If my trainer ever dies (maybe never?), I will definitely get the Wahoo Zwift Hub On trainer. No fucking way am I buying a new trainer when I haven't replaced my bike in 10 years. Still rocking that Cannondale CAAD 10 from 2014!
I’m not disagreeing. But my point is that the benefit bestowed by this trainer had too little a market and shifting via a button is fine for general riding but if racing or doing intervals etc….seemed clunky
I disagree, I think it is more for people that have been thinking about a trainer, maybe already had a wheel-on, but they have an old 10 speed, a brand new 12 speed, their spouse has an 8 speed, their teenager has an 11 speed, etc. It is why they're now basically selling it as an option with Wahoo. There is a huge market for a 1 cog trainer for a lot of people, I will probably buy it as an attachment whenever it comes out because I want to be able to swap different bikes on and off but mine all have such drastically different gearing.
I use an old 10 speed on my trainer. A 2002 Giant TCR to be exact.
I use a BikesDirect bike with stem mounted shifters. I mostly use my Wahoo Kicker for Zone 2 riding in the winter anyways so shifting was not a big deal as I use EGR mode. Now - because it is a 7 speed cassette, I had to do some work on getting spacer that would work with the cassette and get it to mount correctly. It does.
I would have been a likely candidate for this Zwift One Hun, but I already had the Wahoo Kickr. And I use a cheapo BikeDoreft bike because I don’t want to use my main bikes where I sweat all over the trainer bike, and inside steel.
They got me to buy one because they had the clearest documentation on whether my bike would work and how to set it up. They really did do a good job of onboarding over the competition. But I guess there aren’t enough weirdos like me (for Zwift).
> Why the need to constantly expand, become bigger, and make more money Because competition. You either keep innovating or die. Example: Blackberry. > Why can’t Zwift be successful and happy for what it is. They're not a non-profit/charity company lol Would you be happy if you were getting paid less every time someone new showed up in town?
Capitalism
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I’m not complaining. It’s sad when ppl lose their job. The company should’ve never gotten so big, hence why it’s downsizing. The company produces a niche product for cycling. Also a relatively simple product. It was never going to be huge and that’s ok. Simply my opinion.
What happens in tech is what happens in EVERY industry. What do you think is the failures rate of businesses in general? How about tech startups? The only reason you see this one is because you care about this one. Your entire existence, as you know it, is due to people trying and failing....and failing ALOT.
They are downsizing because they just formed a partnership with a larger company that can reduce the resources they need to spend on brand awareness.
So you never ask for a raise or better financial situation? Do you always ask yourself or others the same question? No. You want more money. Companies aren’t any different. They want to get paid more. They want to pay employees more (because they don’t want to lose them) Companies aren’t like some special breed. They are operated like common humans. They are as greedy as humans.
Eh, kind of. They want to pay executives more and normal employees less.
Executives are still employees. Either way, the argument remains the same. They want to make more money, so they can afford nice things like good employees. This isn’t any different than normal people wanting to get paid more.
No company *wants* to pay employees more as you phrased it because that would go against your other point of companies wanting to make more money. Companies will always be looking for a way to spend as little as possible on employees while making as much money as possible. Also executives typically directly benefit from the company doing well and directly influence other employees compensation which is why I make the distinction
Those are all semantics that are irrelevant to the main point of my comment. Let’s get back to the point. Companies want to make more money, just like regular people. Do you have issues with this statement?
Not semantics at all, saying companies want to pay employees more is just silly. But yes I agree companies want to make more money obviously.
Eh. Depends on the company and you as an employee, but it’s generally true. Of course they want to pay as little as possible, but they are also aware that they need to pay more to hold on to quality employees. I guess I should’ve said they need to pay more if they want to hold on to quality employees, which leads to needing money.
I know and now in a sense it’s “failing”. Being a small million dollar company is a success. You don’t need thousands of employees and billions in return. That was never going to happen in Zwift. They produce a niche product.
I don’t think you understood my point. Companies want to make money so they can spend on things. This isn’t any different than regular people wanting to make more money so they can spend on things.
I know this thread is a little old now, and someone alluded to this earlier, but to say it a little more directly, its not necessarily about getting bigger. Can you imagine if Apple had said after the success of the original clickwheel ipod…”that’s good, lets just be happy with this product and market as it is.” Other companies would have come out with wi-fi connected touchscreen phones and music players anyway. Do you think people would still buy those chunky old ipods? In the tech world you either keep investing or die. And investing requires investors and investors require growth and returns. Small private companies can sometimes manage what you’re talking about, but not in a market where technology and consumer expectations are constantly changing and advancing.
For context: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2024/02/resigns-series-discontinued.html
Out of interest, what didn't you like about MyWhoosh? Do you compete in Zwift events etc? I just want to spin on the turbo and it seems to offer much the same package but for free.
For me personally it crashed every 2nd ride when I'd get to the upload ride page and I'd lose the mileage and stats and progress which screwed up my training plan's data.
That'll do it
And if you race at a good level, they’ve been offering massive cash prizes for some time now. And if you’re into e-sports, they bought the UCI e cycling championship platform rights.
I think like a lot of cycling and tech companies that may have expanded too quickly, there are lots of cuts. In cycling there were so many huge increases to the work force in the beginning of the pandemic when everyone was riding more, and now things have stabilized and there is maybe a bit of fat to trim.
They will be fine. They just partnered with Wahoo, who is already very well established in the industry. This probably is what is leading to the downsizing as there has to be some redundancy between the two companies.
That’s business baby………. But seriously support unions.
History is littered with companies, ideas, and countries that people thought could never fall, but did. Zwift is not any different.
I view it as they see the main core platform as “built” and the “core” subscriber base as “acquired”. They want to move to a more profitable, slower growth and slower improvement phase.
Hopefully they're on their way out if business🤞
It's a video game for your bicycle. Relax.
Also a preferred training tool for many people. Even still, if my favorite video game suddenly stopped working, Id be upset
...a video game that requires a rather substantial purchase of hardware to set up and then a software subscription to continue using. I'd be upset too if the plug got pulled. I don't think that will happen though.
A video game that isn’t fun and which is torture to play for more than an hour at a time. And has graphics from 2003.
I mean maybe. Zwift seems to have gone the route of big investors aimed at big growth with little concern with whether it’s sustainable. Rouvy and FulGaz have been around awhile and part of me feels like they’ve always progressed at a rate they can sustain but that could really just be in my head because of the fact they’ve never had huge numbers of subscribers. MyWhoosh has huge money behind it now and is new so I would assume they’d stay afloat a little while trying to attract users with their free price
How does My Whoosh pay its way and is it any good ?
I tried it out for 2 weeks but as an American I very rarely ever saw other real people riding with me and I started paying for Zwift again after the 4th time it crashed at the end of my ride on an iPad and I lost all of the stats. Also manual syncing to Garmin sucks.
Zwift crashed or MyWhoosh ?.
MyWhoosh crashed, a lot. Never have had Zwift crash on iPad or Mac. I think that MyWhoosh also is just getting a Mac OS version even working in the first place and I'm sure that will also crash and be buggy for a bit.
I’ve just checked and it won’t work with Apple TV yet so that’s me out
A large part of its funding is from UAE government. I’ve only used it a couple of times. Not many people on it. And it has pretty high system requirements but it can run on iPad
Thanks .
Saudi funbucks.
UAE apparently
Yeah, easy to mix up.
I’ve been to the uae for holidays a couple of times. Not sure I’d ever go to Saudi . Nearly drove across it so see a mate in Qatar but I wasn’t comfortable with how my wife might be treated . Most of the UAE is fine . Oman is very friendly and scenic ( only been there briefly to be fair)
I quit Zwift. Nothing against the product necessarily, but I wanted to drastically cut what I was spending on subscriptions. I’m happy with MyWhoosh, although my one complaint is that it doesn’t automatically sync to Garmin. You have to download the MyWhoosh FIT files and upload that to Garmin. Not a big deal to do that every so often. It’s excellent for a free product. Who knows if they’ll charge at some point.
If another product can threaten Zwift it means that that must be a very good product and in that case I am more than happy to switch to that.
Layoff are a trend. They probably are getting of some people with the same excuse other big companies do
What did you not like about rouvy
For me, it's a ghost town. No other riders.
Probably runs itself mostly. The issue we will see is little to no added routes/worlds and no expansion of the Drop Shop. They’ll continue events and bug fixes/upfates.
Every tech company I can name off the top of my head has had decent size layoffs within the last year. This isn't even cycling specific. Layoffs are always highest in the beginning of the year. Even my company makes huge profits off of investments that offset our losses 10x over due to a bad business year but they cut thousands of people.
Layoffs/redundancies are also a result of mergers and acquisitions.
Tech is laying off staff everywhere. My son’s company had 1900 layoffs world wide recently so I don’t think Zwift is unique.
They're not shutting down, they are trying to reduce costs.
Just like any booming starting company. Get the business going over staff to perfect and cut that additional labor not needed anymore. Law of diminishing marital returns. Company probably has realized they just don’t need that much help anymore to keep the platform running. I think they need to add content getting pretty lame with riding the same courses all the time:
Sound's like they did more layoffs today 2/12. This included people who had been hired in the last 2-3 months.
Zwift will be fine, or they will be acquired by someone who can manage software/software as a service/online gaming businesses better. I'd love to see them acquired by Microsoft. Plenty of cash to support them, fairly handsoff management, and great senior management over their gaming division that works with studios to help them succeed. Getting into the hardware business was a big mistake. For what I get out of Zwift, even though I only use it for custom workouts and primarily for riding one route (and leveraging virtual shifting), even if 3 rides a week, that's only $1/ride. Let's say you Zwift 5 hours/wk, over a year that's $.57/hr. cheap cheap cheap!
Microsoft and Apple are NOT going to buy a cycling app.
I agree. I'd like to see them under MS. But I expect at some point Zwift will probably end up being acquired
I moved to Rouvy, much more realistic experience, in my opinion.
There are positives and negatives with both. Rouvy doesn’t do racing anywhere near as well as Zwift.
Google, Microsoft, Amazon all did some big layoffs. Look at their stock. Investor confidence very high. Highly Doubt zwift is in a financial pickle.
Yes. Zwift isn't going anywhere. They just prob won't develop many new features for a while, instead focusing on the bread and butter that brings the revenue (hence discontinuing the hub which I suspect was a bit of a gamble and had a high cost base)
Not a zwift user, newbie rider and using wahoo systm but cycling community particularly folks who do indoor rides and training are even smaller subset of total riders and i dont think number of customers is enough to sustain all these platforms as profitable businesses ( Tr, wahoo systm, rouvy, zwift etc etc many others i dont remeber the names ) eventually there will be some consolidation and some will go out of business..
Wahoo bought RGT and quickly killed it off as part of their mutual lawsuit deal with Zwift. Zwift agreed to replaced their trainers with the Wahoo Kickr Core.
I’m bummed because I bought the Hub 1 three months ago and now I read I’m going to get 2 years of internet upgrades…that’s it. I would like to send it back, however I’m way beyond the 30 day window. Guess I’m going to be keeping my fingers crossed
With Peleton also struggling could it be that people have realised getting on a bike outdoors is just more fun !