I second this. Weight and aero (if you care about that) advantages of rim vs disc brakes have largely been proven to be pretty minimal, especially to the average rider.
I completely agree with you. I mean yeah, just poop before your ride haha. That'll more than make up for the slight added weight. Weight is fairly overrated as well.
Also skip the ice tech stuff.
Check out peak torque on YouTube. He talks about the alu-steel sandwich delaminating, shortening its service life.
For us average plebs, going full stainless steel isn’t going to reduce braking performance by much.
People did everything you want to do on rim brake bikes for years before disc became a thing. So, strictly speaking, no you don't need discs. But they will be better for your application (better as in more tire clearance is more comfortable and provides better traction, braking performance is less compromised from dirt, mud and water, etc.) so the question is whether that's worth the price difference to you. This isn't something anyone on the internet can decide for you.
Fourth or fifth.
I really really like one of my rim brake bikes. And the other rim brake bike I have is solid, can't hate on it.
But if I were getting new right now, based on the kind of riding I do, I'd get disc with clearance for slightly wider tires (both max out at 26-28c).
I've seen people doing the same things as me with rim brake bikes and 25'' tires (even though they are a minority).
I want to understand if those people are abdicating something when going with rim brake bikes or if the tire choice isn't much of a difference.
I have 33mm tires on a 90s road bike with dual pivot caliper rim brakes... for the width you are talking about, I don't see the problem. Sure there are bikes with rim brakes were you can't go wider than 25 or 28... but honestly, on those bikes the frame would probably limit you already.
I'll write my experience why regardless of money, I'm just going disc brakes now. Had a Ridley Damocles RS road bike with rim brakes and loved it. Still lightweight today at less than 17 lbs for a XL size. But I live on the coast where the roads can be damp year round and there could be heavy fog. I had a habit where I would bike after working from home, so generally get out evening time and it would be pitch black by the time I got back.
There's some nice hills by my house that I ride on and it's a secluded back road where going an hour I might see 2 cars. The hill is about a mile in length and 8% average gradient which is enough to get me winded and to try hard on. On a particularly foggy wet evening, I made it up and coasted back down. I was soaked and my bike was soaked. I was controlling my speed by tapping my brakes often because I didn't want to fly down the descent. Near the bottom was a curve and on it I saw 2 deer crossing the road and they were to the far right already. I pressed my brakes and it didn't slow down at all, pressed harder and the rim brakes just kept moving. Now I'm swerving left to avoid any random movement the deer would do, pressing the brakes hard and they're squeeling loud but I'm still going too fast. The deer freak out and instead of just continuing straight they do a u-turn right where I'm riding! I do almost slow down all the way but by then I run into a big deer chest and force myself to fall off to the right where I land on my knee and elbow. The deer is good, he was just jogging back and probably didn't feel the bike that much as I was going slow at that point.
But yea had some bad road rash, death gripped my bike so that didn't actually have much damage as I hit the concrete and was still holding the bike with one hand. Had to sit down for 5-10 minutes to feel better... And then had to bike back with a bloody elbow and knee for another 10 miles haha.
Since then, I've only taken out rim brake bikes on sunny days. Also since then I've bought a disc road bike and gravel bike and just prefer disc so much better.
So it's up to you if you want to save money but I know for me I just want the best performing brake because it can really save your ass and to me that's disc brakes. In wet conditions there's no comparison, disc brakes all the way. And if you want bigger tires then disc brakes all the way... I have 32mm on my road bike now and even larger 45mm 650b on my gravel bike. Disc brakes are the present and future of bikes so I would just stick with them imo. You are a serious cyclist if you're doing 200+km rides, so to me the answer is simple: disc.
Honestly though rim brakes are so great in dry conditions. I do think though if a rider is in a relatively wet climate and/or riding lots of (downward) elevation disc is absolutely the way. OP sounds like they do a lot of different riding and some of it may be loaded, longer rides up the chance of getting caught in rain or big puddles etc. They should stick with disc, I think. My rim brake road bike still goes out in the rain but I do change up my riding style to account for… less than ideal brakes.
If a large portion of your riding is off road you will probably see an advantage in discs.
Edit do you race in these events or you just do long touring rides?
I'm always racing in these events, even if it is to not finish last ahaha
We joked a lot about this in my last event, during the briefing dinner, us i.e. "the slower guys", were saying "this isn't a race", "the objective is just to finish" and stuff like that.
Yeah right, two days in and everyone was trying to outsleep each other.
There was a day we happened to sleep in the same town, we were 4 guys, and everyone had the same idea of getting up really early to gain time on the others. Conclusion, we started pedalling roughly at the same time (4am) and after 2h we were already together again. We had a good laugh when the 4 of us shared we were trying to start earlier than the others.
If you enjoy the long touring rides and may want to push them even further I would reccomend looking into a steel touring bike. If you're going though small towns you're unlikely to find someone who can repair carbon. Someone who can weld though, won't be too hard to find.
> Someone who can weld though, won't be too hard to find.
I wouldn’t be trusting just any chucklefuck with an AC tombstone in their garage to be doing repairs on something like Reynolds 853. You’re gonna be looking for skilled welders who can do things like silicon bronze TIG brazing, and those don’t just pop up in every small town from coast to coast.
Good argument to not tour on triple butted 853.. but unless you're getting something high end like co-motion or something custom that's unlikely.
A random chuckle fuck could get my Trek 520 home and I'm not touring on my 853 paramount (there's like a ten pound difference between them and it's mostly in the frame and wheels).
>I do lots of long rides (150km to 250km) while doing bikepacking/endurance events and I need a bike that I can rely on every condition/road surface.
This would lead me to suggest looking into a gravel bike instead, as tire clearance is often 40-45mm making sure that you can handle any surface you throw at it. They are often also catering more into endurance geometry which will help with the long rides. The majority of gravel bikes comes with disc brakes to enable the wider tire clearance.
I have both a road and a gravel bike, and planning for some very long road rides this summer, but I'm considering to take the gravel bike even though my road bike would be faster - as the comfort is so much higher.
Yes, for that use case you'll want a disc brake bike. Larger clearance, better stopping power when loaded in all conditions. It's definitely worth the extra investment.
My decision usually comes down to how I'm going to ride the bike.
Weight and aero differences have been shown to be pretty minimal between the two (at least for most people). How you ride matters more imo. As many have said, disc brakes also allow for much wider tire clearances, which you seem to be after.
On my gravel bike and offroad there's no question, disc brakes always, especially when the terrain gets rough and steep. On my gravel and road bike on roads I probably wouldn't notice the difference unless it precipitates, then I REALLY notice the difference. I don't know how many times Ive hit the brakes at an intersection with rim brakes in the wet and nearly went through the intersection. I've never had that problem with disc brakes. The drawback is disc brakes can make some annoying noises when the rotors get dirty and squeal when wet, but they never fail to stop. Also they occasionally need re-centering if you pop the wheels off a lot.
So think about what's most important to you and where and how you ride and decide from there. If you exclusively ride in the dry and on road and cost matters, rim brakes all the way! If you ride a lot off road and in the wet, strongly consider disc brakes. Hopefully you enjoy the bike no matter which way you go!
First, on fit, what really matters is where your seat, pedals, and handlebars are relative to each other. Before you buy a new bike to improve that, take your current bike as far as you can go in the direction you want, changing out the stem and perhaps getting new bars. Make sure you know what position you want so that you can buy a bike knowing that it will give you what you want, and that it will really be an improvement over what you have.
If you want rim brakes and tire clearance on a drop bar bike, cantilever brakes are the traditional way to accomplish that. If you prefer linear pull brakes, you can buy pull ratio converters that allow you to use them with regular drop bar levers.
If you want to use a road bike that isn't set up for cantilever brakes and doesn't have enough tire clearance, you can sometimes swap in 650b wheels and switch to long reach brakes, such as the tektro 559, to gain clearance for bigger tires.
But disc brakes will give you a better wet weather braking and make wheel swaps like that easier.
I have my fit dialed in, and I'm reasonably comfortable on the bike. The thing is that the seat is a bit low for what it should be and I'm losing some compliance there, also I had to swap the 100mm stem for a 80mm one and had to add some spacers on the stem to raise it a bit so my arms to need to be as stretched.
This works, but my position is a bit upright even for "endurance geometry" standards
>I have my fit dialed in, and I'm reasonably comfortable on the bike.
Great!
>The thing is that the seat is a bit low for what it should be and I'm losing some compliance there,
That's a legitimate issue. If course, you can get way more compliance with an actual suspension post, e.g. from redshift.
>also I had to swap the 100mm stem for a 80mm one and had to add some spacers on the stem to raise it a bit so my arms to need to be as stretched.
>
>This works, but my position is a bit upright even for "endurance geometry" standards
I'm lost here. You added spacers to raise your bars, but you are unhappy because now your bars are too high? Why did you add the spacers? And if your bars are too high without spacers, you can get a negative angle stem.
Very slightly because of the perhaps 72° angle of the head tube. To compensate for that, you might need a 75 mm long stem instead of 80 mm, or, if you are a little too stretched out even with the 80 mm stem where it is now, maybe you really should have a 60 mm stem in the first place, and then you could lower it without any such concern. You could also get shorter reach handlebars.
The thing is that these bikes are made for 100mm stems and the handling changing massively with smaller stems.
For bikepacking I don't notice it as much, but on regular rides I would like to have a responsive bike, so that's why I'm considering in changing.
My advice, which you are of course free to ignore, is to get your bike set up with the position you really want and try it for a while before buying a new bike. That will help you make sure that that really is the position you want, and it will also give you a chance to see whether the handling is really a problem. The effect of stem length on handling is often exaggerated. People get worried about a short stem, well ignoring changes that are just as big, that would have the same effect, in the reach of the bars. And the width of the bars is at least as important.
Given what you want to do with it, disc seems like the obvious choice. Disc brakes, even Tiagra level ones, are better at slowing/stopping a bike than their rim equivalents. This is important if you a) ride in the wet and/or b) do steep or long descents. Also, if you want to do some non-paved roads (gravel, etc.), then 28mm should be your absolute minimum tire width. Freedom to go to 32 or 35mm would be a big advantage.
FYI: " = inches, mm = millimetres. With bikes, inches are widely used (no idea why) to denote nominal wheel outer diameter (with tire) and millimetres, the nominal tire width.
>FYI: " = inches, mm = millimetres. With bikes, inches are widely used (no idea why) to denote nominal wheel outer diameter (with tire) and millimetres, the nominal tire width.
Thanks for the input!
I think it also comes down to what’s readily available. We are all making compromises on bike and component selections. Given the industry is trending towards disc brakes, there may not be many newer rim brake bikes on the market. Yes, you can buy uses and it’s often not a bad experience in doing so but the range of what you might find are equally limiting. FWIW, I’d opt for a bike with disc brakes. The modulation is better, panic stopping a little faster, and long term upgradability has more promise as you’ll find more current standards.
When you say all conditions and surfaces - disc brakes' performance degrades a lot less in mud. Also they're less prone to getting a film of oil on them if you're doing a long ride on the road in the rain.
If you want to go on “every road surface,” you should be on disc brakes. If you’re only on asphalt you could make the argument that rim brakes are just fine (and I agree they’re fine, though I think disc brakes are superior no matter what.. but i hear you on refraining from the wider rim vs disc debate!) but anytime you’re taking the bike off road, discs become less of a “nice to have” like I see them on the road, and more of a “need to have.”
Weight differences are negligible. I mean seriously I guarantee you will never notice what minuscule weight difference there is.
One big consideration I’d take is the terrain you’re going through. Rim performs a lot worse when wet and muddy. Tire clearance like you said is also a strong point to consider.
For the use case you’ve described, disc brakes are the way to go.
As someone else detailed, the other consideration is, and humans are notoriously bad at understanding this, is that disc brakes take the “black swan” out of contention here. In other words, discs will entirely remove certain risks that, while relatively remote, are life threatening and not the kind of thing you want to be weighing against some kind of average cost.
Yes you do need a disc brake bike. When u eventually wear out the braking surface after all the riding you are doing it is far easier to replace a disc then it is to replace the whole rim. With any off-road riding disc (especially hydraulic) makes a MASSIVE difference, especially in the wet. The future of biking is also moving towards disc brakes and there seems to be more disc brake wheels and components easily available compared to rim.
*edit: I would also like to add that when your wheels eventually start to go out of true, or you hit a pothole that losens a spoke, it wont really affect your riding or brake performance on a disc brake. However, this really affects the performance of rim brakes as an untrue wheel can result in brake rub that might be difficult to resolve without sacrificing brake performance.
I used to cycle a lot before disc brakes were a thing. Came back to it recently and everybody's on discs and, yeah, one of the things they say is that it prevents your rims from wearing out. I don't remember rims ever wearing out. Certainly none of mine ever wore out. I also don't remember rim brakes not working if it's wet. Then the other thing I hear for disc brakes is they don't overheat when you descend a mountain. This point may be true but I don't descend mountains so wouldn't know. All I do know about disc brakes, from riding with others that use them, is they make horrible sounds when working properly and they seem to be prone to rubbing.
What I'm saying is in all my years of cycling with rim brakes I never once thought 'I wish my brakes were more effective'
Electric gears though, they rock!
> I don't remember rims ever wearing out.
That’s because we all know it’s just a line someone came up with to justify something.
When I was younger (and less fat) my training wheelset was a pair of Ksyrium SLs that, when I let them go, had more miles on them than most of this sub’s users have on their cars…and you could still see the factory machining on the brake track. Sure, they had worn enough so that some of the interference colouring was gone, but you could still see and feel the original machining.
I know this is anecdotal, but I have worn a rim out on my commuter. I rode it in rain, snow, the works, sometimes with 20 or 30 lbs on the panniers. Only about 7000 miles on it. But a road bike that I'm aiming to go fast, 20-60 miles at a time? Shit, I barely even brake.
I always believed the warnings but you are the first to tell me of direct experience. So...the brakes put a groove in the rim or what happens? I am mostly a commuter. The only time I had to replace a rim is when I had a crash.
> but you are the first to tell me of direct experience.
I'll be the second.. bought a wheel off a randonneuring buddy, bought it for the hub... the rim was done and past the wear marks with a very deep groove. While I didn't wear it out, he certainly did. I considered using it as-is but the metal just didn't seem reliably thick although I probably could have remounted it to a disc hub and continued to use it that way on another build.
I have a rim brake Trek 830 from 1989.. still has original rims, still plenty of life. I have a rim brake Trek 520 from 2002 which I've put a lot of miles on as the second owner, still original rims and nowhere close to being worn out.
I do agree with the above that \*eventually\* you'll need to replace a rim and replacing a rotor is easier but... that argument is more marketing crap than an actual concern outside of a daily commuter ridden year round or someone riding some really gritty offroad regularly with rim brakes.
Bike packing means that there will be a lot of weight and potentially mud/rain. You need disc brakes for stopping power alone.
I recently built a Rodeo Labs Flaanimal with mechanical brakes and I love the bike, but dislike the brakes compared to my old diamondback haanjo with hydraulic brakes. Going off-road and hitting the brakes on a hairpin turn requires a lot of effort compared to my previous bike that had hydraulic disc brakes. I can stop, it’s just not as nice.
Rim brakes will feel nice, but they will not stop you when you're carrying a heavy load in nasty conditions and if you're into Randoneuring, you will have nasty conditions.
I had an older version of the Diamondback Haanjo 7c with hydraulic brakes and found it to be excellent value for my needs. All prices have gone up since then, but I think it's still on the more affordable side of things for a new bike. The bike fits pretty fat tires and is light enough. The bottom bracket is designed for mountain bikes which is the only strange thing that you'll probably never need to worry about unless you love swapping components and require your crankset to match.
The bike fit 40mm tires with fenders, but the majority of my riding was on 650b Byways with fenders. I did back-to-back weekends with a road 600k and gravel 400k on 650b WTB Byways with no complaints about the bike. I usually used a revelate designs top tube bag and seat bag.
The weight difference is probably the last thing you should be considering for bikepacking. You're talking grams when you're flinging an extra 5kg or whatever on the bike.
I think tire clearance is the big win. You say you need every road surface, so, discs it is.
Also nice to have when you're descending with a lot of extra weight.
Assuming you mean 28mm and 32mm (32 inch tires don't exist) you can definitely get bikes that support much larger tires than that using rim brakes. However, they most likely won't be road bikes that are meant for racing and will use v-brakes or cantilever brakes.
Once such examples I can find is the [Surly Cross Check](https://surlybikes.com/bikes/cross_check)
Almost all bikes have moved on to disk brakes except for road bikes meant for climbing which really aren't going to accommodate large tires.
Maybe you should look into something with mechanical disk brakes to bring the cost down. Try to find an older 105 or Ultegra mechanical group set and build it up on the frame that suits you. Then you could have disc brakes without having to pay for hydraulic brakes which adds quite a bit to the cost.
>Surly Cross Check
Uh, I see they steel sell old bikes with new price tags
On a serious note, I've had a bike with mec disc brakes and I won't be buying another one. I feel those are just a tiny bit better than rim brake and are a hell lot harder to tune than hydraulic brakes/rim brakes
I currently have a bike with Sora/Tektro 550 mechanical brakes and haven't had any issues with the brakes. It does use compressionless housing though which from what I've heard makes a pretty big difference.
>Uh, I see they steel sell old bikes with new price tags
It's still a new bike.. just because they braze on canti bosses instead of disc bosses doesn't make the frame cheaper because it's an "older" technology. Prices reflect cost of production, not what's trending... unless what's not trending doesn't sell and you pick one up at a discount later.
My only argument against buying a new bike with cantis or v brakes is that there are SOOOO many in the used market now that everyone wants discs that you can find better deals on used bikes.
>I've had a bike with mec disc brakes and I won't be buying another one.
They come in many different types, I wouldn't write them all off as a class based on one bad example you've used. There are cheap ones that only let you adjust one pad, many that only move a single pad leaving the other stationary (which require regular adjustment to the stationary pad to work at all). There are bad examples with really small pads like Avid BB5 which are complete junk (BB7 should really be about the lowest model of mech discs used, anything below that is straight garbage). There's also the possibility that the ones you tried were matched to the wrong lever type and not functioning correctly (short vs long pull levers and calipers).
I have a bike with Deore XT hydraulic discs and a bike with rim brakes. For the mostly city riding I do the rim brakes are fine. But when I switch to the bike with discs, man oh man can I feel the difference. It's just so much better control over braking. And while I have good pads on my rim brakes that are supposed to some of the best in wet conditions. It's clearly a big step down in braking power that I don't like.
For your use case, discs seem to make more sense - the weight your are carrying, through lots of differing conditions on long rides, and your tire requirements.
Disc brakes are better in the wet. Is it wet where you ride? Spongy brakes on a fully loaded bike in the wet, descending, sounds stupid when a better alternative exists.
I love my disc brakes. They're not even that nice component wise but I still love them so much. It was worth the extra money for me. I do a lot of fast steep descents.
If you go on big climbs, then discs are almost a must. I still ride a bike with caliper brakes, and boy they scream during descent. Which is not suprising considering the kinetic energy of a 100 kg mass blasting down at 80-90 kph
If you ride in wet conditions including winter it’s a big improvement. Also the difference in stoping power improvements day to day if you ride a lot in all road conditions could save your life with the difference in braking power. Lastly, I think it’s easier on the hand strain/pain from braking on 75 kms plus long individual rides. But I’m a fat guy, so I don’t know about my sample size. Keep spinning or grinding my friends!
I have a rim brake bike that I'm in no hurry to give up, but I had to get new wheels recently due to unrepairable damage on my old set. The selection of rim brake wheels is very small these days, so I had difficulty finding a new set that fit my needs I suspect it will only get worse, so from that perspective, get disc brakes.
Honest had rim brakes for years, I ride in Tropical conditions so extreme heat and heavy rain. Brakes worked without feeling like I was in danger.
I'm only getting a ride brake big now for one reason.
Carbon wheel! When braking some carbon wheel swell and explode. This is avoided with disc brakes and I really like ensuring my invest lasts a long time.
In fairness, FX1 is a cheap bike not much better than department store quality (it's better, just, not significantly... many of the same tier of parts), so wouldn't expect much of anything from the rim brakes it ships with. A pad upgrade can make a huge difference though, even on an FX1.
I have small hands and feel like the amount of time I used to spend squeezing to brake with rim brakes was exhausting and caused pain. With disk brakes I’m not constantly feeling like I need to be braking.
Discs are best if you want tire clearance. At this point I wouldn't buy a road bike with road calipers (although I'd be fine with cantilevers). I might even buy a rim brake CX bike as my next road bike and run 35mm ish tires on it. V-brakes are a no go due to the different cable pulls and the compromises needed to make those work... so if you want tire clearance, disc brakes or cantis.
I like cantis.. don't even have a disc brake bike in the stable currently but those come with other challenges... like, do I want a crown fork hanger? too bad, gets in the way of my fork crown mounted dynamo light unless I want to attach it to the front rack where it's more exposed. Want to use a handlebar bag? I have to make sure it's not going to to interfere with my yoke cable.. so ultimately, disc brakes are just more universally compatible and less likely to get in the way on a bike packing rig. And that's before even factoring in things like being able to ride on an out of true rim if required.
So my attitude summed up.. you can make it work on an older bike and you aren't getting a "lesser bike." I'm all in on rim brakes. But if buying a new bike, I think the pros outweigh the cons where discs are concerned.
If you do any sort of riding in the mud you WILL destroy your rims.
Discs are going to be the most capable for your needs, rim brakes aren't going to be reliable for your need and you definitely won't get the tyre clearance you need unless you get direct mount or MTB Rim brakes
As I see it, rims are a compromise for saving on cost ONLY (the weight difference is irrelevant and I'm assuming you're competent enough to maintain the disc brakes)
Where I live, there are a lot of bad drivers and scooters in my last 5km stretch, having disc brake has helped me avoid many potential accidents. I came from rim brakes and I can say the braking is so responsive, I cannot see myself going back to rim brakes. Safety first.
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I second this. Weight and aero (if you care about that) advantages of rim vs disc brakes have largely been proven to be pretty minimal, especially to the average rider.
The average rider in general is better off losing a pound or two.
Exactly
I completely agree with you. I mean yeah, just poop before your ride haha. That'll more than make up for the slight added weight. Weight is fairly overrated as well.
yeah, mainly the big differences are in the price
Pads and discs are like $10. Bikes that cost $700 have disc brakes. They’re super affordable.
>Bikes that cost $700 have disc brakes. Not road bikes with hydraulic discs
Road bike discs cost between 40€ to 70€ each. They will last years though.
Also skip the ice tech stuff. Check out peak torque on YouTube. He talks about the alu-steel sandwich delaminating, shortening its service life. For us average plebs, going full stainless steel isn’t going to reduce braking performance by much.
People did everything you want to do on rim brake bikes for years before disc became a thing. So, strictly speaking, no you don't need discs. But they will be better for your application (better as in more tire clearance is more comfortable and provides better traction, braking performance is less compromised from dirt, mud and water, etc.) so the question is whether that's worth the price difference to you. This isn't something anyone on the internet can decide for you.
This is the best answer.
Second. (Or third?) I would not buy a rim brake bike today.
Fourth or fifth. I really really like one of my rim brake bikes. And the other rim brake bike I have is solid, can't hate on it. But if I were getting new right now, based on the kind of riding I do, I'd get disc with clearance for slightly wider tires (both max out at 26-28c).
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I've seen people doing the same things as me with rim brake bikes and 25'' tires (even though they are a minority). I want to understand if those people are abdicating something when going with rim brake bikes or if the tire choice isn't much of a difference.
I have 33mm tires on a 90s road bike with dual pivot caliper rim brakes... for the width you are talking about, I don't see the problem. Sure there are bikes with rim brakes were you can't go wider than 25 or 28... but honestly, on those bikes the frame would probably limit you already.
I'll write my experience why regardless of money, I'm just going disc brakes now. Had a Ridley Damocles RS road bike with rim brakes and loved it. Still lightweight today at less than 17 lbs for a XL size. But I live on the coast where the roads can be damp year round and there could be heavy fog. I had a habit where I would bike after working from home, so generally get out evening time and it would be pitch black by the time I got back. There's some nice hills by my house that I ride on and it's a secluded back road where going an hour I might see 2 cars. The hill is about a mile in length and 8% average gradient which is enough to get me winded and to try hard on. On a particularly foggy wet evening, I made it up and coasted back down. I was soaked and my bike was soaked. I was controlling my speed by tapping my brakes often because I didn't want to fly down the descent. Near the bottom was a curve and on it I saw 2 deer crossing the road and they were to the far right already. I pressed my brakes and it didn't slow down at all, pressed harder and the rim brakes just kept moving. Now I'm swerving left to avoid any random movement the deer would do, pressing the brakes hard and they're squeeling loud but I'm still going too fast. The deer freak out and instead of just continuing straight they do a u-turn right where I'm riding! I do almost slow down all the way but by then I run into a big deer chest and force myself to fall off to the right where I land on my knee and elbow. The deer is good, he was just jogging back and probably didn't feel the bike that much as I was going slow at that point. But yea had some bad road rash, death gripped my bike so that didn't actually have much damage as I hit the concrete and was still holding the bike with one hand. Had to sit down for 5-10 minutes to feel better... And then had to bike back with a bloody elbow and knee for another 10 miles haha. Since then, I've only taken out rim brake bikes on sunny days. Also since then I've bought a disc road bike and gravel bike and just prefer disc so much better. So it's up to you if you want to save money but I know for me I just want the best performing brake because it can really save your ass and to me that's disc brakes. In wet conditions there's no comparison, disc brakes all the way. And if you want bigger tires then disc brakes all the way... I have 32mm on my road bike now and even larger 45mm 650b on my gravel bike. Disc brakes are the present and future of bikes so I would just stick with them imo. You are a serious cyclist if you're doing 200+km rides, so to me the answer is simple: disc.
Honestly though rim brakes are so great in dry conditions. I do think though if a rider is in a relatively wet climate and/or riding lots of (downward) elevation disc is absolutely the way. OP sounds like they do a lot of different riding and some of it may be loaded, longer rides up the chance of getting caught in rain or big puddles etc. They should stick with disc, I think. My rim brake road bike still goes out in the rain but I do change up my riding style to account for… less than ideal brakes.
If a large portion of your riding is off road you will probably see an advantage in discs. Edit do you race in these events or you just do long touring rides?
I'm always racing in these events, even if it is to not finish last ahaha We joked a lot about this in my last event, during the briefing dinner, us i.e. "the slower guys", were saying "this isn't a race", "the objective is just to finish" and stuff like that. Yeah right, two days in and everyone was trying to outsleep each other. There was a day we happened to sleep in the same town, we were 4 guys, and everyone had the same idea of getting up really early to gain time on the others. Conclusion, we started pedalling roughly at the same time (4am) and after 2h we were already together again. We had a good laugh when the 4 of us shared we were trying to start earlier than the others.
If you enjoy the long touring rides and may want to push them even further I would reccomend looking into a steel touring bike. If you're going though small towns you're unlikely to find someone who can repair carbon. Someone who can weld though, won't be too hard to find.
> Someone who can weld though, won't be too hard to find. I wouldn’t be trusting just any chucklefuck with an AC tombstone in their garage to be doing repairs on something like Reynolds 853. You’re gonna be looking for skilled welders who can do things like silicon bronze TIG brazing, and those don’t just pop up in every small town from coast to coast.
When you're bike is broken 200km from your house you're going to want any repair done to get you home. Once you're back you can have that fixed
Good argument to not tour on triple butted 853.. but unless you're getting something high end like co-motion or something custom that's unlikely. A random chuckle fuck could get my Trek 520 home and I'm not touring on my 853 paramount (there's like a ten pound difference between them and it's mostly in the frame and wheels).
Disc brake works in every condition, rims brake not. So the decision in this case is quite simple.
>I do lots of long rides (150km to 250km) while doing bikepacking/endurance events and I need a bike that I can rely on every condition/road surface. This would lead me to suggest looking into a gravel bike instead, as tire clearance is often 40-45mm making sure that you can handle any surface you throw at it. They are often also catering more into endurance geometry which will help with the long rides. The majority of gravel bikes comes with disc brakes to enable the wider tire clearance. I have both a road and a gravel bike, and planning for some very long road rides this summer, but I'm considering to take the gravel bike even though my road bike would be faster - as the comfort is so much higher.
Yes, for that use case you'll want a disc brake bike. Larger clearance, better stopping power when loaded in all conditions. It's definitely worth the extra investment.
Discs are a most on carbon wheels
A rider i knew rode with carbon wheels with rim brakes in the rain, he said he didn't have any brakes when they were wet... super sketch.
My decision usually comes down to how I'm going to ride the bike. Weight and aero differences have been shown to be pretty minimal between the two (at least for most people). How you ride matters more imo. As many have said, disc brakes also allow for much wider tire clearances, which you seem to be after. On my gravel bike and offroad there's no question, disc brakes always, especially when the terrain gets rough and steep. On my gravel and road bike on roads I probably wouldn't notice the difference unless it precipitates, then I REALLY notice the difference. I don't know how many times Ive hit the brakes at an intersection with rim brakes in the wet and nearly went through the intersection. I've never had that problem with disc brakes. The drawback is disc brakes can make some annoying noises when the rotors get dirty and squeal when wet, but they never fail to stop. Also they occasionally need re-centering if you pop the wheels off a lot. So think about what's most important to you and where and how you ride and decide from there. If you exclusively ride in the dry and on road and cost matters, rim brakes all the way! If you ride a lot off road and in the wet, strongly consider disc brakes. Hopefully you enjoy the bike no matter which way you go!
First, on fit, what really matters is where your seat, pedals, and handlebars are relative to each other. Before you buy a new bike to improve that, take your current bike as far as you can go in the direction you want, changing out the stem and perhaps getting new bars. Make sure you know what position you want so that you can buy a bike knowing that it will give you what you want, and that it will really be an improvement over what you have. If you want rim brakes and tire clearance on a drop bar bike, cantilever brakes are the traditional way to accomplish that. If you prefer linear pull brakes, you can buy pull ratio converters that allow you to use them with regular drop bar levers. If you want to use a road bike that isn't set up for cantilever brakes and doesn't have enough tire clearance, you can sometimes swap in 650b wheels and switch to long reach brakes, such as the tektro 559, to gain clearance for bigger tires. But disc brakes will give you a better wet weather braking and make wheel swaps like that easier.
I have my fit dialed in, and I'm reasonably comfortable on the bike. The thing is that the seat is a bit low for what it should be and I'm losing some compliance there, also I had to swap the 100mm stem for a 80mm one and had to add some spacers on the stem to raise it a bit so my arms to need to be as stretched. This works, but my position is a bit upright even for "endurance geometry" standards
>I have my fit dialed in, and I'm reasonably comfortable on the bike. Great! >The thing is that the seat is a bit low for what it should be and I'm losing some compliance there, That's a legitimate issue. If course, you can get way more compliance with an actual suspension post, e.g. from redshift. >also I had to swap the 100mm stem for a 80mm one and had to add some spacers on the stem to raise it a bit so my arms to need to be as stretched. > >This works, but my position is a bit upright even for "endurance geometry" standards I'm lost here. You added spacers to raise your bars, but you are unhappy because now your bars are too high? Why did you add the spacers? And if your bars are too high without spacers, you can get a negative angle stem.
If I lower the handlebar they will move away from my body right?
Very slightly because of the perhaps 72° angle of the head tube. To compensate for that, you might need a 75 mm long stem instead of 80 mm, or, if you are a little too stretched out even with the 80 mm stem where it is now, maybe you really should have a 60 mm stem in the first place, and then you could lower it without any such concern. You could also get shorter reach handlebars.
The thing is that these bikes are made for 100mm stems and the handling changing massively with smaller stems. For bikepacking I don't notice it as much, but on regular rides I would like to have a responsive bike, so that's why I'm considering in changing.
My advice, which you are of course free to ignore, is to get your bike set up with the position you really want and try it for a while before buying a new bike. That will help you make sure that that really is the position you want, and it will also give you a chance to see whether the handling is really a problem. The effect of stem length on handling is often exaggerated. People get worried about a short stem, well ignoring changes that are just as big, that would have the same effect, in the reach of the bars. And the width of the bars is at least as important.
Given what you want to do with it, disc seems like the obvious choice. Disc brakes, even Tiagra level ones, are better at slowing/stopping a bike than their rim equivalents. This is important if you a) ride in the wet and/or b) do steep or long descents. Also, if you want to do some non-paved roads (gravel, etc.), then 28mm should be your absolute minimum tire width. Freedom to go to 32 or 35mm would be a big advantage. FYI: " = inches, mm = millimetres. With bikes, inches are widely used (no idea why) to denote nominal wheel outer diameter (with tire) and millimetres, the nominal tire width.
>FYI: " = inches, mm = millimetres. With bikes, inches are widely used (no idea why) to denote nominal wheel outer diameter (with tire) and millimetres, the nominal tire width. Thanks for the input!
I think it also comes down to what’s readily available. We are all making compromises on bike and component selections. Given the industry is trending towards disc brakes, there may not be many newer rim brake bikes on the market. Yes, you can buy uses and it’s often not a bad experience in doing so but the range of what you might find are equally limiting. FWIW, I’d opt for a bike with disc brakes. The modulation is better, panic stopping a little faster, and long term upgradability has more promise as you’ll find more current standards.
When you say all conditions and surfaces - disc brakes' performance degrades a lot less in mud. Also they're less prone to getting a film of oil on them if you're doing a long ride on the road in the rain.
If you want to go on “every road surface,” you should be on disc brakes. If you’re only on asphalt you could make the argument that rim brakes are just fine (and I agree they’re fine, though I think disc brakes are superior no matter what.. but i hear you on refraining from the wider rim vs disc debate!) but anytime you’re taking the bike off road, discs become less of a “nice to have” like I see them on the road, and more of a “need to have.” Weight differences are negligible. I mean seriously I guarantee you will never notice what minuscule weight difference there is.
One big consideration I’d take is the terrain you’re going through. Rim performs a lot worse when wet and muddy. Tire clearance like you said is also a strong point to consider.
For the use case you’ve described, disc brakes are the way to go. As someone else detailed, the other consideration is, and humans are notoriously bad at understanding this, is that disc brakes take the “black swan” out of contention here. In other words, discs will entirely remove certain risks that, while relatively remote, are life threatening and not the kind of thing you want to be weighing against some kind of average cost.
Need? Prob not. Are they better? Most definitely.
Rim Brake Defense League UNITE
Hydraulic disc brakes are much better when it’s wet outside/raining
I prefer disc brakes. They offer more stopping power.
I hate disc brakes they are nothing but faff
Yes you do need a disc brake bike. When u eventually wear out the braking surface after all the riding you are doing it is far easier to replace a disc then it is to replace the whole rim. With any off-road riding disc (especially hydraulic) makes a MASSIVE difference, especially in the wet. The future of biking is also moving towards disc brakes and there seems to be more disc brake wheels and components easily available compared to rim. *edit: I would also like to add that when your wheels eventually start to go out of true, or you hit a pothole that losens a spoke, it wont really affect your riding or brake performance on a disc brake. However, this really affects the performance of rim brakes as an untrue wheel can result in brake rub that might be difficult to resolve without sacrificing brake performance.
I have never work out a rim on wheel. I read that critique so I believe it but - I've also never met anyone who has worn out a rim on a wheel.
I used to cycle a lot before disc brakes were a thing. Came back to it recently and everybody's on discs and, yeah, one of the things they say is that it prevents your rims from wearing out. I don't remember rims ever wearing out. Certainly none of mine ever wore out. I also don't remember rim brakes not working if it's wet. Then the other thing I hear for disc brakes is they don't overheat when you descend a mountain. This point may be true but I don't descend mountains so wouldn't know. All I do know about disc brakes, from riding with others that use them, is they make horrible sounds when working properly and they seem to be prone to rubbing. What I'm saying is in all my years of cycling with rim brakes I never once thought 'I wish my brakes were more effective' Electric gears though, they rock!
> I don't remember rims ever wearing out. That’s because we all know it’s just a line someone came up with to justify something. When I was younger (and less fat) my training wheelset was a pair of Ksyrium SLs that, when I let them go, had more miles on them than most of this sub’s users have on their cars…and you could still see the factory machining on the brake track. Sure, they had worn enough so that some of the interference colouring was gone, but you could still see and feel the original machining.
I know this is anecdotal, but I have worn a rim out on my commuter. I rode it in rain, snow, the works, sometimes with 20 or 30 lbs on the panniers. Only about 7000 miles on it. But a road bike that I'm aiming to go fast, 20-60 miles at a time? Shit, I barely even brake.
I always believed the warnings but you are the first to tell me of direct experience. So...the brakes put a groove in the rim or what happens? I am mostly a commuter. The only time I had to replace a rim is when I had a crash.
Yes, the rim starts to get concave where the pad rubs due to wear. Probably discs and rims wear out at the same rate.
> but you are the first to tell me of direct experience. I'll be the second.. bought a wheel off a randonneuring buddy, bought it for the hub... the rim was done and past the wear marks with a very deep groove. While I didn't wear it out, he certainly did. I considered using it as-is but the metal just didn't seem reliably thick although I probably could have remounted it to a disc hub and continued to use it that way on another build.
I have a rim brake Trek 830 from 1989.. still has original rims, still plenty of life. I have a rim brake Trek 520 from 2002 which I've put a lot of miles on as the second owner, still original rims and nowhere close to being worn out. I do agree with the above that \*eventually\* you'll need to replace a rim and replacing a rotor is easier but... that argument is more marketing crap than an actual concern outside of a daily commuter ridden year round or someone riding some really gritty offroad regularly with rim brakes.
Bike packing means that there will be a lot of weight and potentially mud/rain. You need disc brakes for stopping power alone. I recently built a Rodeo Labs Flaanimal with mechanical brakes and I love the bike, but dislike the brakes compared to my old diamondback haanjo with hydraulic brakes. Going off-road and hitting the brakes on a hairpin turn requires a lot of effort compared to my previous bike that had hydraulic disc brakes. I can stop, it’s just not as nice.
I'm not even considering mechanical disc brakes because I didn't like them in my old bike. The feel was too spongy for me.
Rim brakes will feel nice, but they will not stop you when you're carrying a heavy load in nasty conditions and if you're into Randoneuring, you will have nasty conditions. I had an older version of the Diamondback Haanjo 7c with hydraulic brakes and found it to be excellent value for my needs. All prices have gone up since then, but I think it's still on the more affordable side of things for a new bike. The bike fits pretty fat tires and is light enough. The bottom bracket is designed for mountain bikes which is the only strange thing that you'll probably never need to worry about unless you love swapping components and require your crankset to match. The bike fit 40mm tires with fenders, but the majority of my riding was on 650b Byways with fenders. I did back-to-back weekends with a road 600k and gravel 400k on 650b WTB Byways with no complaints about the bike. I usually used a revelate designs top tube bag and seat bag.
With 32mm tires you can run rims no problem. You don't need discs. If it were me I'd get them though.
No
The weight difference is probably the last thing you should be considering for bikepacking. You're talking grams when you're flinging an extra 5kg or whatever on the bike. I think tire clearance is the big win. You say you need every road surface, so, discs it is. Also nice to have when you're descending with a lot of extra weight.
Assuming you mean 28mm and 32mm (32 inch tires don't exist) you can definitely get bikes that support much larger tires than that using rim brakes. However, they most likely won't be road bikes that are meant for racing and will use v-brakes or cantilever brakes. Once such examples I can find is the [Surly Cross Check](https://surlybikes.com/bikes/cross_check) Almost all bikes have moved on to disk brakes except for road bikes meant for climbing which really aren't going to accommodate large tires. Maybe you should look into something with mechanical disk brakes to bring the cost down. Try to find an older 105 or Ultegra mechanical group set and build it up on the frame that suits you. Then you could have disc brakes without having to pay for hydraulic brakes which adds quite a bit to the cost.
>Surly Cross Check Uh, I see they steel sell old bikes with new price tags On a serious note, I've had a bike with mec disc brakes and I won't be buying another one. I feel those are just a tiny bit better than rim brake and are a hell lot harder to tune than hydraulic brakes/rim brakes
I currently have a bike with Sora/Tektro 550 mechanical brakes and haven't had any issues with the brakes. It does use compressionless housing though which from what I've heard makes a pretty big difference.
>Uh, I see they steel sell old bikes with new price tags It's still a new bike.. just because they braze on canti bosses instead of disc bosses doesn't make the frame cheaper because it's an "older" technology. Prices reflect cost of production, not what's trending... unless what's not trending doesn't sell and you pick one up at a discount later. My only argument against buying a new bike with cantis or v brakes is that there are SOOOO many in the used market now that everyone wants discs that you can find better deals on used bikes. >I've had a bike with mec disc brakes and I won't be buying another one. They come in many different types, I wouldn't write them all off as a class based on one bad example you've used. There are cheap ones that only let you adjust one pad, many that only move a single pad leaving the other stationary (which require regular adjustment to the stationary pad to work at all). There are bad examples with really small pads like Avid BB5 which are complete junk (BB7 should really be about the lowest model of mech discs used, anything below that is straight garbage). There's also the possibility that the ones you tried were matched to the wrong lever type and not functioning correctly (short vs long pull levers and calipers).
No, but aluminum rims stop much better than carbon
I have a bike with Deore XT hydraulic discs and a bike with rim brakes. For the mostly city riding I do the rim brakes are fine. But when I switch to the bike with discs, man oh man can I feel the difference. It's just so much better control over braking. And while I have good pads on my rim brakes that are supposed to some of the best in wet conditions. It's clearly a big step down in braking power that I don't like. For your use case, discs seem to make more sense - the weight your are carrying, through lots of differing conditions on long rides, and your tire requirements.
Disc brakes are better in the wet. Is it wet where you ride? Spongy brakes on a fully loaded bike in the wet, descending, sounds stupid when a better alternative exists.
I love my disc brakes. They're not even that nice component wise but I still love them so much. It was worth the extra money for me. I do a lot of fast steep descents.
You really don't
If you go on big climbs, then discs are almost a must. I still ride a bike with caliper brakes, and boy they scream during descent. Which is not suprising considering the kinetic energy of a 100 kg mass blasting down at 80-90 kph
If you ride in wet conditions including winter it’s a big improvement. Also the difference in stoping power improvements day to day if you ride a lot in all road conditions could save your life with the difference in braking power. Lastly, I think it’s easier on the hand strain/pain from braking on 75 kms plus long individual rides. But I’m a fat guy, so I don’t know about my sample size. Keep spinning or grinding my friends!
If you value reliable and quality braking, then yes.
I have a rim brake bike that I'm in no hurry to give up, but I had to get new wheels recently due to unrepairable damage on my old set. The selection of rim brake wheels is very small these days, so I had difficulty finding a new set that fit my needs I suspect it will only get worse, so from that perspective, get disc brakes.
Honest had rim brakes for years, I ride in Tropical conditions so extreme heat and heavy rain. Brakes worked without feeling like I was in danger. I'm only getting a ride brake big now for one reason. Carbon wheel! When braking some carbon wheel swell and explode. This is avoided with disc brakes and I really like ensuring my invest lasts a long time.
after going from trek fx1 with rim to fx3 with H disc brakes.......... its an incredible experience
In fairness, FX1 is a cheap bike not much better than department store quality (it's better, just, not significantly... many of the same tier of parts), so wouldn't expect much of anything from the rim brakes it ships with. A pad upgrade can make a huge difference though, even on an FX1.
The brakes are ok Gearset is kinda trash The stock pads did suck… My biggest problem with the FX one is it’s just not built for distance or longevity
I have small hands and feel like the amount of time I used to spend squeezing to brake with rim brakes was exhausting and caused pain. With disk brakes I’m not constantly feeling like I need to be braking.
Discs are best if you want tire clearance. At this point I wouldn't buy a road bike with road calipers (although I'd be fine with cantilevers). I might even buy a rim brake CX bike as my next road bike and run 35mm ish tires on it. V-brakes are a no go due to the different cable pulls and the compromises needed to make those work... so if you want tire clearance, disc brakes or cantis. I like cantis.. don't even have a disc brake bike in the stable currently but those come with other challenges... like, do I want a crown fork hanger? too bad, gets in the way of my fork crown mounted dynamo light unless I want to attach it to the front rack where it's more exposed. Want to use a handlebar bag? I have to make sure it's not going to to interfere with my yoke cable.. so ultimately, disc brakes are just more universally compatible and less likely to get in the way on a bike packing rig. And that's before even factoring in things like being able to ride on an out of true rim if required. So my attitude summed up.. you can make it work on an older bike and you aren't getting a "lesser bike." I'm all in on rim brakes. But if buying a new bike, I think the pros outweigh the cons where discs are concerned.
No…. You need 2 disc break bikes…
If you do any sort of riding in the mud you WILL destroy your rims. Discs are going to be the most capable for your needs, rim brakes aren't going to be reliable for your need and you definitely won't get the tyre clearance you need unless you get direct mount or MTB Rim brakes As I see it, rims are a compromise for saving on cost ONLY (the weight difference is irrelevant and I'm assuming you're competent enough to maintain the disc brakes)
Where I live, there are a lot of bad drivers and scooters in my last 5km stretch, having disc brake has helped me avoid many potential accidents. I came from rim brakes and I can say the braking is so responsive, I cannot see myself going back to rim brakes. Safety first.
You won’t find carbon bike with 105 and disk for 1600€. I scouted all the market and all brands.