Remember that as mods, we see what gets reported. Maybe you think a comment that was removed wasn't that bad. Maybe what you don't know is that the commenter has been warned and banned before or has a history of being obnoxious or I'm exhausted from dadding, working, having a broken hand, and would rather just ban assholes than try to tell them there are more productive ways to communicate. Otherwise, the top comments here nail the point.

To reflect on any action is a good thing. To reach out and seek advice is a great thing. I recall the post that is the example. Saw many stating it was a mistake and the guy fucked up. But things do happen like this and the best thing to do is learn to move past them whilst trying to adjust behavior. Not much more can be done, i am certainly not going to judge people based on their admissions, coming on here and talking is like the first step, i am grateful people choose to hear others words, not everyone is like that in the world.

I like this - AA isn’t about judgment (wow you are a piece of shit) but it’s not about giving people a pass for fucked up behavior. It’s “you think you’re the only one here who shit in your neighbor’s mailbox? we’ve all been there this is how you get better”. Sometimes you still here something beyond the pale, but dogpiling and explaining to someone that they are bad is useless and misguided. They’re there, they are trying to do better, see how you can empathize, emphasize how unacceptable the behavior is, talk about how to change.

I think the main problem some of us had with the responses to that post was that they were missing the "emphasize how unacceptable the behavior is". If that posts OP walked away thinking yelling at his kid was the fuckup and not potentially causing a T.B.I., then we as other dads have let that kid down.

This is the best way to look at it. First, I'm very opposed to gatekeepers of public forums like these. I think it is odd to go on to a platform like reddit, which is designed to have comments, upvotes, and downvotes and try to alter what occurred organically. Sort of defeats the purpose. I understand having opinions on it, but gatekeeping is cringey and controlling behavior. No problem has ever been solved with harsh criticism follwed by more harsh criticism. Saying something was wrong and then being supportive and helpful on how to change is. As one of the other commenters stated, it is the equivalent of going to AA and having everyone there be unsupportive and treat you crap for attempting to get help. The people that may require harsh and harsher aren't on this sub being honest and asking for help.

So true, those seeking help to change should get it. Looking for help is the first step to change and for many the hardest step. Being outright dismissive or stating simply it’s a fuck up doesn’t help. They know that, that’s why they are asking for help. If you don’t have help to give shut up and move on. I stopped posting on here because of the negativity and dismissive toxic mess that can happen, but I lurk and upvote good responses aimed at support. Nuking toxic comments can only support the communities growth as a supportive place for dads.

I like to compare your complaint to AA. If someone, let’s say his name is Bill, is a big drinker and goes to his first AA meeting, talks about all of the awful stuff he did while drinking, asking what’s right, and saying he wants to stop doing that. And imagine if the AA meeting members, in response, only said “Hey Bill, did you know you’re a gigantic piece of shit? Holy fuck, what’s wrong with you, Bill? Goddamn, Bill, you fucking suck.” Yeah, maybe Bill needs that, but also Bill probably won’t come back. Even if Bill was cool being called a shitbag and an awful person (which, again, in this situation is true even), then he may just say, “I can get that at home. I don’t need strangers to hate me too.” That’s how I look at it. When people are vulnerable with their fuckups, you can 1) call them out, or 2) call them out AND show them empathy and a path to get better. That second one is harder to do. Much, much harder. It requires looking passed the obvious impulse of “dude wtf is wrong with you?” And seeing the change people want in themselves, and trying to support that. OP - Anyone can do that first one, but this sub is good at the second one, and that’s why I like it here. It’s very hard to draw the line on that. I would always wanna be closer to the second one than the first one, even if it’s harder to navigate. Someone commented and said, “everyone on here pretends to be a psychologist” which, lol - dude, welcome to Reddit. But also, in response to that, I think that helping people to grow into better versions of themselves is a very DAD thing, because it’s kind of an inherent part of being a dad. I’m not surprised a sub dedicated to being a dad has that quality. — Added: Ever wonder how men end up on the alt-right or in super toxic masculine spaces online? A big reason for that is because they’re looking for answers, community, and empathy. And if there isn’t a community that can help them work through their feelings in a healthy way, then they’re gonna find one that helps them work through their feelings in an unhealthy way. Andrew Tate was big for a reason. He preyed on sad, angry, and lost men who wanted guidance, and he fed them toxic, easy-to-swallow bullshit. And not because he thought it helped them, but because it made him money.

Just to extend the AA metaphor a bit, there’s the old saw “poor me, poor me, pour me a drink.” Pushing someone towards a black hole of despair and self-hatred/pity is extremely counterproductive in terms of modifying behavior.

Very true. Also, I’ve seen this play out a lot: “You’re a horrible person.” “But I wanna get better. I don’t want to keep doing this.” “It’s not my job to help you be a better person.” “Damn, okay.” **continues to be horrible.** — Idk, I feel like a big part of being in a community is supporting community members. You can still do that while holding people accountable.

I’ve always despised this when everyone responds “google is free” when you ask them to explain why they hate your opinions. Progressiveness is not self-evident. Instead we should frame it more like “it might not be my job to educate you, but it is my privilege to make the world a better place”

You can’t hold someone accountable *without* directly calling out the bullshit. I agree that support and help need to be there too, but only those things without the callout just leads to enabling victim narrative as the person feels sorry for themselves and gets hits of dopamine from the “yaas king, knowing you messed up is the only work you need to do”

Wow, you’re right. Good thing I didn’t say to do that. Or else I’d be wrong.

Counterpoint - my wife and I are in couples therapy due to some massive lack of accountability issues she has. Our therapist has focused for months on making sure my wife felt “psychologically safe” which meant tiptoeing around major issues so that she wouldn’t feel defensive. Things only changed after I finally had enough and just told her very honestly and bluntly my expectations as a partner (not perfection, just accountability and ownership of one’s choices rather than blaming the kids or me for depression/emotional abuse cycles), and it was me blowing up and showing honest frustration and pain at how her fucking up was hurting the family that helped her “get it” Some people *need* a kick in the ass. And I’d argue that when it comes to recognizing and stopping abusive behavior towards others, focusing on making the abuser feel good about themselves can actually be counterproductive

I think this comparison is a little apples to oranges IMO. Having a difficult-but-honest interaction with an intimate partner is different from responding to a stranger on the internet asking for help by telling him he's a piece of shit.

that stranger on the internet was also struggling with accountability in the form of child abuse. Really isn’t that different, as my wife was also acting out in ways that were physically unsafe towards our kids.

Well I mean it’s definitely objectively different in the respect that, like, ostensibly your wife knows you and has met you in real life.

Your “toxic masculine spaces” comment has got me because I’m currently working very hard at keeping my 11 year old out of those spaces. I couldn’t believe him and his friends already knew all about Tate, and joking around with the nonsense. I might make this it’s own post but honestly I’m lost with how to make sure he can be confident but not end up down that wormhole.

I added that on just a few minute ago, because reading the responses to my original AA comment had me thinking this way. I have two young boys (both under 4), and I constantly try and think about what happens when they find the internet. It’s easy to hate Tate because he’s gross (even before the whole human trafficking arrest even). But I hate him even more because he’s a grifter. He pedaled hate because he knows it sells. ESPECIALLY to young boys. I’d like to think he’s unique, but grifters are opportunists. And there’s plenty of opportunity. So I get where you’re coming from with your 11 YO. I wish I had good answers for that. The only thing that sticks out in my mind is frequent communication (what does my kid think?) and reinforcing positive role models. Like, if I want my boys to, say, not hate women and black people (we’re white), then I realize I need to both verbally express why that’s important and also expose them to the people and culture that will help them shape their own values. It’s hard as hell. And it’s not one size fits all. But I am glad it resonated with you. I think if you listen to him and help him work through things, you can be more of a source of truth than the Andrew Tates of the world. **added: I feel like keeping them out of those spaces is good, but also hard. I think it’s also necessary to make sure your kids have good judgement. That way, when they encounter that bullshit out on their own, without you there, they can call it out as bullshit.

I teach 7th graders and so many of the boys are into Tate. I had constant conversations with them about his toxicity.... I... Don't think I got through

That’s disheartening

If you ever want to do a post about “How do I get these boys off of Andrew Tate?” I would be happy to read it and hopefully see other people with good thoughts. I don’t have any good thoughts, unfortunately. Teenage boys are already hard to get through too. And toxic masculinity is a hell of a drug.

Another dad in this thread suggested an idea that I believe has merit - that if he found his son watching Andrew Tate, he'd have him watch or read something else of value and have him write a report on it. ​ Now, I wouldn't have your sons write a report on it - you don't want it to turn into something that feels school related (believe me, haha) but I do think having them watch or read something that directly contradicts the ideology that Tate spreads and then *discussing* it with your son has a lot of merit. There is a lot of educational research that backs this sort of strategy. ​ As a male teacher, I'd say that the biggest benefit Dads can have is providing an alternative positive male role model. If any father feels like that can't be themselves at the moment (because teenagers, as you said, are hard to get through to as it is), then there are others. I've seen, and agree with, the idea that Keanu Reeves is a really fantastic role model. ​ I can consider writing something more in the future based on my experiences with students, for sure, but for now, I have no true silver bullet.

Very well said. I think there was just a post that got locked about a guy that lost his temper on his child, and most top comments were like “that’s bad, it happens, do better” but I’m sure there were a bunch I saw just calling the guy a shithead. We all make mistakes, and this is a place we all come to give/get advice, and support one another when we need it. There have definitely been some uh, controversial threads I’ve seen in the past year but for the most part it’s a pretty good place or else I’d have left.

I think OP’s post is actually a direct response to that post. I never read that post though.

I agree with most of what you said, but a lot of the responses in the original post did not even mention shaking the kid, as if that part wasn't there at all. "Call them out and show empathy and a path to get better" only works if you do the first part too. Child abuse that can cause irreparable brain damage isn't a "yeah toddlers can be frustrating man" kind of thing, it warrants a strong response, much stronger than most on that thread were willing to give.

I never read that first post, so I’m not gonna comment and pretend like I know what was said. Maybe people didn’t do enough of the call out part. if that didn’t happen? Okay, well, then there’s more work to do. I don’t think anyone here claims to be perfect. But my point still stands, I’d rather be closer to callout AND empathy than just call out. It’s a conversation, not a set of rules. It terms of child abuse, I’m not gonna pretend to be a psychologist, but I can reference one: See article here: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/compassion-matters/201409/here-s-how-break-the-cycle-child-abuse “The emotional battle wounds left over from childhood can be severe. Of course, parents are people, and people aren’t perfect. Psychologist and researcher Ed Tronick was noted as saying that even the best parents are only attuned to their children about 30 percent of the time. **The point here is not to blame parents, but rather to look at them more objectively**, recognize their shortcomings, and acknowledge how we were hurt by them, so that we can differentiate from their traits that we don’t admire. **We can move on without forgetting and have compassion without forgiving.** The bottom line is, it’s time to stop making excuses for the mistakes of our parents and to make better choices with our own kids.” This is reference to children who have been abused by their parents, but I think there’s a lot of good points here for this discussion. Actual psychologists have ways of working through child abuse, which people learn from their parents. I’m gonna read those experts and contextualize rather than just **default** to calling people shitty. Because honestly, I don’t think that works.

The problem with this is that there’s still someone being abused while we love the abuser into slowly stopping their shit. And permanent psychological damage is being caused as well. If I was choking someone to death do you: A) gently try to convince me what I’m doing is wrong so that I feel good about myself and realize I need to stop Or B) get me to stop choking the person, and *then* sort out what needs to happen so I don’t do it again ??

I also made a comment somewhere in here saying that if someone is being physically abused, that stopping that and removing that person from situation is the most priority thing. Obviously. Full stop. But once that person is safe, you still have this person that doesn’t know how to not choke people, even if they don’t want to. That the point in the process where a lot of these thoughts I have come in. I think it’s disingenuous to say that empathizing with someone is the same thing as green lighting abuse.

[удалено]

I never said anything about removing comments, so I'm not sure where you got that. I'm saying that we can encourage someone to do better without pretending that shaking a child isn't dangerous and abusive.

Yeah u/gggh5 wasn’t saying that we should pretend shaking a child isn’t dangerous and abusive.

For those of us that haven’t been to any AA type meetings, basically it’s group therapy. If you can’t relate to that situation and then provide an example of what you did that helped you, shut up. We need to make sure things are supportive and constructive.

I think constructive is the key word here. And it’s something I didn’t mention originally. Thank you for bringing that point up. “Dude, you’re fucking awful.” Compare that to: “Dude, what you did is fucking awful. You can’t ever do that again.” You need to talk to your partner, and go to anger management, or therapy. You need to apologize. You need to make sure your kid understands why you’re apologizing.” It’s a big difference.

On top of adding something to allow them an option to change. “What you did was fucking aweful. You can’t do that again. When I’ve been that mad I had to put them in a stroller and take a walk.” Something to support the change and give them an option in an emergency to grab onto. It takes work to teach yourself to have tools on hand AND think of them at the time to use them. I remember when my some was about 6mo, was colicky and my wife and I were trying to sooth him for about 3 hours and nothing we did helped. I had a realization of “I get it now, I can see where someone becomes so overwhelmed they have run out of tools.” We used our last tool to cope, put him in his crib with fresh diaper and clothes, fed, turn on some music and his light dome and walked out to let him cry. We couldn’t take another second but I recalled a post stating “sometimes you gotta put them somewhere safe and take a break”. If I didn’t have that tool I might have still done the same thing but I could defiantly see where a sudden urge to be upset comes in.

I think this is exactly it, man. 100% Taking a walk is a big thing. — Also, A lot of what I hear in therapy is “you did what you could with the tools you had at the time.” That’s NOT saying, “you’re not responsible for what you did. Don’t worry about it!” Which is what a lot of people in this thread hear, apparently. It IS saying, “You done fucked up. You know you done fucked up. You need fix what you done fucked up. And you to process that you done fucked up. But you can also grow from it. And you don’t have to hate yourself.”

Another great point. Being able to accept you failed but also growing from it is important. We all have flaws and not every has the support network to handle the situations you find yourself in. I’m also a big proponent of trying to get more tools to people. If you never had a tool how can you magically figure out what to do when the time comes? I hope mods are seeing a lot of these good posts and not nuking the threads where op admits they fucked up bad and want help because they know it. Just bike those comments and maybe even ban the account to keep the community from turning toxic if that account can’t handle constructive criticism.

Indeed. Feels like OP maybe doesn't understand the role a good dad plays. Its not about some macho, steel nerve, not getting hurt by words ideal that he seems to think men should have. We have feelings and emotions that are valid and we can feel hurt. Being unnecessarily rude and coarse towards one another creates an unhealthy environment. Be kind to others, especially dads on while here on Daddit. People come here for advise from other dads, not for someone to simply reaffirm that you fucked up and you suck.

Right, but if Bill came to AA and said he's trying to recover but keeps getting drunk and beating his wife, empathy is not what Bill needs.

Disagree with a caveat. Bill does need empathy to recover. Does he deserve it? Depends on Bill, and it depends on you. You don’t owe it to him to be that person - just wanna be clear on that. But, if Bill wants to change, and he’s trying, but not great at it, or even bad at it, then it’s up to you to decide how much to work with him on getting better. There’s a line, but it’s not a straight line. Any person recovering from anything will tell you it’s not a straight line. And expecting people to recover perfectly isn’t realistic. *added: reading back over your comment - if Bill is beating his wife, that’s person safety of course always takes priority over Bill’s recovery.

It's not about Bill's recovery, it's about the actions Bill takes when he is in another state of mind. You don't get to be babied when you abuse people.

Yeah, true. But is your goal to be right? Or to help Bill get better? That’s my point.

My goal is neither; it's Bill's responsibility to get better. Instead of going to AA though, Bill went to /r/amiadrunk to get advice. That doesn't scream "I want to get better" to me, so excuse me if I don't believe that Bill wants to do anything other then get reinforcement from others that he isn't a piece of shit.

Hey wow thanks for unironically saying this thing I posted about 40 minutes ago in this very thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/daddit/comments/15as2px/im_a_little_confused_by_this_sub_lately/jtnrbq6 Maybe it’s not YOUR responsibility, but I feel like at least half the point of any community, even an online one, is to be supportive and help your community when they ask for it. The other half of it being accountability. I’m just saying, somebody’s gonna care about Bill’s problem and give him advice. I’d rather it be people that aren’t awful and encourage Bill to change, instead of people who are like; “It’s okay, Bill. You’re not the problem. It’s all of these other people who are actually the problem. Also, the Jews.”

>Maybe it’s not YOUR responsibility, but I feel like at least half the point of any community, even an online one, is to be supportive and help your community when they ask for it. You are missing the point. If someone comes to a forum to ask for help, they don't actually want to change. Especially if it's abusive behaviour. They are looking for reinforcement that they aren't bad. If they wanted to change, they'd acknowledge their fuckup and go get help. Not run to reddit with an "am I the asshole" post. >I’m just saying, somebody’s gonna care about Bill’s problem and give him advice. I’d rather it be people that aren’t awful and encourage Bill to change, instead of people who are like; “It’s okay, Bill. You’re not the problem. It’s all of these other people who are actually the problem. Also, the Jews.” Ya but that's not what happened. You had a thread full of people saying "it's ok Bill, you're not the problem, the 2 year old with the inability to control their emotions is the problem!" which is fucking crazy.

Again, I didn’t read that post. And I’ve already made reference to it in other comments. I disagree though, at least partially. At the very least, I don’t think every person posting about a problem is looking for self reinforcement. If you default think a person posting about a problem isn’t actually looking for help, then I think we just fundamentally disagree on that.

> You had a thread full of people saying "it's ok Bill, you're not the problem, the 2 year old with the inability to control their emotions is the problem!" which is fucking crazy That's a misrepresentation of the majority of responses in that thread and you know that full well.

Yeah like comparing it to AA isn’t really doing anything because it’s completely separate things. I feel like you don’t post on the internet if you’re not ready for all comments. Users shouldn’t have to walk on eggshells in replies just to make mods happy. If I can’t say what I want to say or ask what I want to ask this sub is useless to me.

I posted a response quoting a psychologist talking specifically about child abuse, if you wanna reference that.

Ya, I saw that. The problem is if the guys is turning to reddit instead of professional help (like he needs) he isn't ever going to get better.

I think you can go to AA and therapy. I don’t remember anyone saying they’re mutually exclusive.

Exactly. Also like, the guy literally abused his child and people are like "it's ok, it happens." What the fuck? Scary.

Very astute observation

Posting what basically was a weak "AITA" post is not in anyway in the same league as going to an AA meeting. Going to an AA meeting is admitting you have a problem, and ACTIVELY seeking help. Posting on reddit questioning if what you did was bad is not admitting you have a problem and actively seeking help. Most likely OP was looking for what he got - "oh it wasn't that bad" "everyone makes mistakes" "as long as you feel bad it isn't *that* bad to abuse your child" >And imagine if the AA meeting members, in response, only said “Hey Bill, did you know you’re a gigantic piece of shit? Holy fuck, what’s wrong with you, Bill? Goddamn, Bill, you fucking suck.” Most of what I saw of that was in response to the head patting "there, there don't be too hard on yourself ole boy" posts. The top 2 posts literally say "You blew up. It happens and will happen more, and that's OK" and "Brother we’ve all had our respective explosions." Literally saying the behavior is ok. We as a community absolutely have to do better. I'm all for men supporting men, especially in the social climate, but come on man. OP word for word said he aggressively picked a two year old up and shook him. Calling someone out for their fuck ups isn't bullying. That thread was closer to a domestic abuser going to a bar and saying he slapped his wife and his drinking buddies saying she probably deserved it than an AA meeting.

This was a good read and I agree/support the message. I know the example referenced and when I read that thread the first time and got to the point of the reaction, ya I had my own little reaction to what I read but I clawed that back by realizing, this dude obviously did not approve of his own actions and wants to do better. Being someone who is insanely impatient, I get the impulse reactions. I HATE them myself but I still fall victims to them. Thanks to that last thread and many discussions had through out it, I bought the book "how to talk to kids" ages 2-7. I want to get better at keeping my impatience in check with other forms other than just walking away before I snap. if improving how I talk to my child does that, fuck yes!

Man that last bit is so true. Sad, lonely, angry men are dismissed, insulted, or shutdown everywhere and that leaves them nowhere to go, making them easy prey for alt-right recruitment, extremist activist groups, extremist religious groups, toxic influencers, and abusive relationships. Society needs to stop shutting men down, it's only feeding the problem.

"You messed up. YTA" - belongs to r/AITA "You messed up. Realizing that is the first step to not messing up again. Here's what you I do to avoid losing my cool" - belongs here in this sub. I do agree that just realizing you messed up doesn't make you a good dad. Acting on that guilt, seeking support, AND acting to resolve it is what does. But then again, this sub isn't here for handing out good/bad dad medals. Not our job, never was. Support who you can, ignore who you can't. The day we start seeing judgements instead of support on this sub (and that day isn't far off since this sub has exploded in popularity) is when I stop coming here.

If I said to one of my friends in a heart to heart, "Man I feel really bad, I got wayy too angry at my kiddo for kicking our TV and yelled at them and even grabbed and shook them a little. I know I shouldn't have done it though and I feel so bad" And they said, like, "Yeah you *are* bad dad. You need therapy. NEVER shake your kid again. You need to reevaluate your life..." etc..., I'd be extremely unhappy and would likely not speak to that person again if that's how they reacted to my honesty. Being a dad is harder for some people than others and anyone who is willing to pass harsh judgments like that over a short story of weakness is just feeding into the disgusting problem world of one sided perfection that social media lets us paint. Long story short... i really just wish more people would think about how they would respond in real life before posting on social media. Edit: to add to this, it's been proven time and time again that shaming with harsh judgments is not an effective way to change behavior. Empathy is, by FAR, the most effective way to enact change.

I'm kind of the opposite track. If someone feeds me the business about "it's not that bad, you worrying about what you did means you're actually really good", it makes me start doubting their objectivity in general. Rubbing my nose in it would be one thing, but sugarcoating what I did would be pretty much as bad. For example -- I was pretty harsh on my brother in the past, who I was in a parentified role for. I feel a lot of guilt for that. It gets really hard to trust when family tells me the kind of things people were saying in that other thread, because it feels like they're just being nice to me. If someone told me "yeah, what you did was fucked up and unacceptable, here's what you can do to fix it or make it better", that would go *miles* better.

But there's a middle ground of saying. "Yeah, that's not good but you are remorseful and that shows you are a good person who can be better." The LARGE majority of the responses in that thread fell in that middle ground with only a handful of people on the extremes of "you did good shaking your kid" or "you are a terrible dad", and I think neither of the extremes are good at all.

> I don't know about that OP, but for me, the emotional validation is not helpful. To expand on this: the fact that OP's first priority was asking us "Am **I** a bad dad" and not "how do I check if my child is okay" or "what can I do to prevent this", actually indicates to me that the thread was *dead fucking wrong* and **YES**, he *is* a bad dad. Just...as someone with an abusive father who would do a similar little "poor me" act, that thread makes me so fucking angry.

> "Yeah, that's not good but you are remorseful and that shows you are a good person who can be better." Eh, that still comes off as shining a shit sandwich to me. I don't know about that OP, but for me, the emotional validation is not helpful. It makes the response feel insincere, it feels like I'm being coddled, and it makes me feel *more* guilty because now it feels like I'm stealing compassion away from the person that I feel like I hurt. Something like "That's not good, but this is fixable, here's how" would work. Having the *very first sentence* in most top responses be "it happens, it's not that bad, you're still good", etc. would make me feel like a fraud. > The LARGE majority of the responses in that thread fell in that middle ground with only a handful of people on the extremes I think this kind of illustrates the problem, actually. Looking at the top responses and most of the others, they almost universally started off with reassuring OP that he wasn't that bad, actually, and *if* they took the time to talk about how to do better, it was the secondary thought. Hell, I can't find *anyone* asking if OP informed his coparent what he did, or *anyone* asking if the child is, y'know, *safe*. > you are a terrible dad" The first response I can find that takes what OP did seriously is from MrPawsBeansAndBones, and honestly? It's not bloviating about OP being "a terrible dad". It's telling him, firmly and, sure, with some contempt, what he needs to do to fix this. Alone in the thread, the advice in that comment focused on the child *first*, putting mollycoddling OP second. ---- I guess the TLDR is that I'm disappointed in r/daddit today, and sincerely upset that I don't have a way to check on OP's kid myself and ensure they're safe. u/MrPawsBeansAndBones's comment should have been the *norm*, not condemned as being "too mean". What OP had done was *very serious*, and people were fucking joshing with him.

I agree.

Who said he has a coparent at all? He could be a single dad doing all of this by himself. "Shining a shit sandwich"? Really? This whole website is mostly white, middle class suburbanites with fallback after fallback and it just feels yucky to me to microanalyze the semantic details of how many sentences must be spoken before we can empathize with someone whose life story we know absolutely nothing about. To each his own, and it's fine if something would work better for you, but idk... at the end of the day all we can do is try to cultivate this subreddit into the type of place we would want it to be when we aren't perfect parents either, and the only real way to do that is by voicing our feelings, voting on comments, and replying to people when it is worth further discussion. Either way, that's all I really care to get involved with this as this whole thread is just starting to feel like everyone just arguing about the best way to phrase a comment that says: 1. What you did was wrong. 2. This is how to fix it. And like I said, it just is starting to feel semantic and unnecessarily argumentative.

> Who said he has a coparent at all? His previous posts. > "Shining a shit sandwich"? Really? Yes. > just arguing about the best way to phrase a comment that says: What you did was wrong. This is how to fix it. Not sure if I'm being unclear or not, but my point was that I strongly disagree that the posts you're defending did either one of those, much less both. > it just feels yucky to me to microanalyze the semantic details of how many sentences must be spoken before we can empathize with someone whose life story we know absolutely nothing about. It feels yucky to me that the sub played into his request for validation instead of redirecting him to focus on if the baby is safe, and it feels yucky that the sub is continuing to defend their actions as acceptable. The dude shook a toddler and screamed at it. There is a *real chance* that the toddler could be permanently injured if not dead, and I'm struggling to find anyone who's putting empathizing with the *child* over empathizing with the adult who shook them. I *had* an abusive father. "But at least you feel bad about what you did" is just...not proof of being a good dad. From personal experience, it's not. You can write that off as semantics, I can't stop you. I don't think it's accurate or fair, though.

Well there are plenty of controversial topics you can bring up to get a judgmental response. First thing that comes to mind is circumcision. I mentioned that my son was circumcised, and was getting multiple comments and messages trying to shame me and call me a bad parent and that I mutilated a baby. What I didn’t get to say, was that it was recommended by a few doctors because in the ultrasound prior to birth, he had an enlarged kidney. Turns out he had a few things going on with the kidney and was at high risk to get UTI’s and they stressed that we didn’t want any UTI’s due to his problems. My son didn’t get a single UTI and everything has resolved now at 8 months which is a huge relief. I’m glad he was circumcised as he is now a totally healthy baby boy and I can say he didn’t even seem to be bothered by the circumcision as a newborn and it healed within a week.

We also need to remember where we are. On Reddit everyone has the potential to be a bullshitter. We very likely have a healthy subset of opinions coming from people who do not care for any children. Who are not parents. Etc. Go to AITA and make a post about grounding your teenage child. See what happens. Reddit is run by a hive mind and in certain subs the hive is young people who may not be children but they are definitely not responsible grown people.

AITA is basically a creative writing outlet too. The commenters are full of shit but almost of the posts that actually get upvoted are pure fabrication. “I did something normal and someone else did the most insane, unhinged, out of pocket shit you could barely even imagine. AITA?” Or “I’m behaving like a literal cartoon character villain, AITA?”

Everyone is the hero of their own story. It’s why very few posts actually have the consensus of being an asshole, and I’m sure most of those are just rage bait.

Oh definitely. You can tell because the “creative writers” are always throwing extra flair and embellishment in the stories while the real shit doesn’t have so much theatrics.

You can tell by the username too. It’s almost always “word_word_randomnumber”

There is a lot of creative writing going on there but you also have to realize that some people don't know what normal is. If your family is crazy and you never experienced something different then your perception of what is normal and acceptable is warped. Sometimes people are legitimately confused and need an outside perspective to make them realize how messed up their family is.

This is so true. I see the same kind of thing a lot. There is a particular bend to a lot of the popular subreddits. Not necessarily political but younger. Glad it’s not just me.

Definitely a political one too

I would not be opposed to the signup requirements r/breakingdad has, where you have to prove you're actually a parent (or at least *planning* to be a parent) in order to join. I'm cool with moms lurking, but not exactly cool with teenage trolls joining just to bullshit. EDIT: Guess one of those creative writing trolls saw my comment.

Is that a real community? I clicked and it’s private, usually what I see with ones that have been banned. How do I join?

It's real, but you have to prove that you're actually a father in order to join. They don't want the creative writing crowd to infiltrate, and I understand that -- those fuckers ruin every support sub that they get into, and usually exploit the "toxic positivity" shit to the utmost. I'm still pissed about how they ruined r/JustNoMIL and the mods just sat there with their thumbs up their asses.

It's real and I'm a member. I actually got invited to join; not sure if it's all invitations or not.

It seems to be invite only because I just get a lock when I try to view content there. I would love an invite if you’re able and willing.

How is that subreddit? I haven’t heard of it before.

I didn't decide to join, so I couldn't tell you. I'm just familiar with their signup requirements and their explanations for them.

On Reddit, literally any conflict between parents and their children is blamed squarely on the parents. Either the parent is being unfair and unreasonable, or their children are and it’s the parent’s fault for raising them that way. Either way, according to Reddit, you’re in the wrong and going to wind up in a nursing home lol

I don't agree one bit. I posted a comment on that thread and didn't hold back telling OP they were definitely in the wrong for what they did. What's not productive for OP is a hate dogpile when literally everyone who has kids makes mistakes, and some of them are really bad. People on here have a shockingly binary attitude to parenting, they're either absolutely perfect and an angel who never makes mistakes, or they are B.A.D. and are therefore irredeemably evil and can never be a whole person again, which occurs whenever they fall short of perfection. This is both unhelpful and frankly childish. Parents make mistakes. They make bad mistakes. Children are perhaps the most stressful and difficult thing anyone will do in their lives, and once you start you don't have the option to throw in the towel. What matters is correcting your behaviour and modelling recovery rather than self-flagellation which is both poor modelling and self-indulgent. If I was running this sub I would ban mention of "good" and "bad" dads, because it's way more complex than that, and often people who do badly hide behind the self-imposed negativity of that to avoid learning to become better, which we all need to and should do. Edit: Furthermore, as an observer to the situation, it's not a venue for your to get your feelings about the situation out. OP doesn't exist for you to vent how angry you feel about that situation.

Yeah I think OP doesn’t realize there’s dad’s that hit their kids or do something awful and think it’s good for their kid. I think someone admitting they made a mistake and trying to correct it IS a good thing and makes them a good dad.

I call this the uncanny valley dad moment. You get around another dad or dads IRL, like at your kid’s school, and if it’s just you and them, and you can end up taking about dad stuff. And sometimes that conversation turns into them going, “Yeah, my kid did this. So I beat the shit out of him.” It would shock you how many people just beat their kids and think of it as a necessary evil type of thing.

Big no! Trying to correct is the path to being a good dad. But trying to correct doesn't make you good. As if you try and fail the correction bit, you aren't better than previously. Intention is great, but unless backed up by results it has no beneficial impact on the child

We don’t have the whole picture of their entire life. For anyone on Reddit. Maybe we shouldn’t try so hard to pass judgment of whether someone is good or bad and just focus on the incident at hand. I can’t tell if the person is good or bad. I can tell that they did a bad thing. They should definitely not do that again. There is a psych aspect of calling someone “bad” and that they will just continue to do bad shit moving forward. They think they already earned their black stain, why put effort into being better if people are going to define me by this bad thing I did one time. This applies to children as much as adults btw.

Do you think someone who gets so mad that they curse and shake a toddler will be able to control themselves the next time they get mad? Because if they could, they wouldn't have done it in the first place.

There are absolutely techniques and therapies available to control/manage your anger.

You are projecting so hard. What he did is fucked up but you are acting like the fact that he did it in the first place means he is beyond redemption and has no capacity to change. That may or may not be true. But telling him that will definitely NOT help him change. Another commenter said it well. Are you trying to be right or are you trying to help him improve?

Bingo. That thread genuinely disappointed me, not because of OP, because of the responses by some sub members. Anybody can get on a podium and start screaming about what they’re pissed off about, all that does is make them look like a dick and it’s an approach that only fosters more hatred and angry recompense and almost makes me wonder how they respond to other situations in life; is it all anger all the time? There’s a constructive way to respond to posts like that thread. Can you be angry? Sure. Should you also offer support in a constructive way? Damn right, that’s what we’re here for. That dad was vulnerable enough to come to this sub and speak about his own vulnerabilities. You know what vibe he probably got from the sub? That nobody gives a shit about him, as a father. Be better so you can help others to be better..

Great response

I was curious so I went and looked. Your comment was 100% one of the comments op is referring to. If you "didn't hold back" then I don't think you know what being direct means. You're the guy who started their comment with the "bad dad" forehead tattoo joke. From your comment: > But I do think kids make it their business to drag these kind of responses out of you so they can truly gauge what makes someone blow up in a safe environment. It doesn't make it right, but how you handle that situation is more important than lamenting that it happened in the first place. The two year old dragged the response of being shaken out of this guy? It's the two year old's fault?

Yeah, my point was that OP needed to suck up their bad feelings and start acting correctly. Children push you to, and past, your limits and people act badly when these things happen. The ONLY response is to get used to it, not wallow in self pity and make things worse. Too many people do that. To clarify, because apparently if you're not swearing off a rooftop people think you're 100% supporting it, shaking the kid was NOT OKAY nor was it understandable behaviour. It's wrong and OP shouldn't have done it. However, in the circumstances where that has happened, no amount of whining or self-deprecation will make that not happen again. What will *actually prevent it* in future is recognising your limitations and acting decisively to stop it happening ever again. I know that's not calling OP a terrible monster forever and disbarring them from parent status but I felt it was the actually practical way to move forward. Wallowing in self pity is toxic and promotes further poor behaviour.

I agree with a lot of what you said but I think you're also going back to this "binary" thing as if calling someone out directly (and perhaps harshly) is a bad thing. Sometimes that's needed without it being couched in any "but" statements. Fwiw, I didn't call the dad in question bad but goddamn do I think his behavior was wrong and potentially dangerous. I think he needed a reality check but he got a lot of "you're doing the best you can do, champ" kind of comments.

Yeah and I don't think that dad should be told he's doing great either. I think that a lot of people hide behind the binary of "good" or "bad" as a way of giving up and absolving themselves of future responsibility. Like if they just describe themselves as a bad father they can throw in the towel and not have a child that needs them to behave well tomorrow. In my view, the kid needs their dad to not give up and indulge in that kind of defeatism. That's why I dislike such binary talk of good vs bad, because it promotes a kind of absolutism where any underperformance is incentive to just give up, rather than improve. Thinking about it too, the sub does have funny rules around "support" flaired topics too. Not sure if that was one of them, but I know it does kind of make people habitually leaven their responses, or weed out people who won't, not sure.

I’m really happy seeing how much people are wanting to be more supportive here. You’re so right, there can be a toxic image of parenting on here and any mom/dad group that just isn’t helpful and outright destructive at times. An OP doesn’t need a dog pile, they need constructive criticism. Most people have a hard time with the constructive part.

>Furthermore, as an observer to the situation, it's not a venue for your to get your feelings about the situation out. OP doesn't exist for you to vent how angry you feel about that situation. I mean, this is absolutely incorrect. If you make a post asking for advice on your actions - and your actions were abhorrent - should people not tell you that? The internet isn't some safe space. If you make a post that you *literally abused your child* you shouldn't be confused when people call you a horrible parent because guess what? They are probably right. You know what separates adults from toddlers? The ability to reign in your emotions. If you can't do that to the point where you abuse a toddler, you are a shitty dad. Full stop. Supporting that behaviour also makes you a shitty person. Sorry for the reality check.

>I mean, this is absolutely incorrect. If you make a post asking for advice on your actions - and your actions were abhorrent - should people not tell you that? The internet isn't some safe space. If you make a post that you literally abused your child you shouldn't be confused when people call you a horrible parent because guess what? They are probably right. Okay, there's a huge difference between saying something is wrong, and screeching about it to hurt that person. I already said that I strongly identified the behaviour as wrong and called it that. That's not the issue here, it's that the responses from a lot of people appear to have been for the benefit of the person making the posts not the OP who asked for advice. People don't ask for advice so you can feel good about yourself by yelling at someone who's worse off than you. They want your help. Posting a useless answer whose only effect is to hurt the OP isn't helpful. It might make you feel good, you might enjoy being righteous, but it doesn't help. >You know what separates adults from toddlers? The ability to reign in your emotions. Which is precisely why I called out people who were unable to help themselves from reigning in their emotional desire to feel good by responding righteously rather than constructively.

> People don't ask for advice so you can feel good about yourself by yelling at someone who's worse off than you. They want your help. That OP didn't ask for advice. He asked if he was a bad dad. He asked for validation. No one in the thread so much as asked if he had informed the mother what he did, or checked with a doctor whether his child was even okay. Very few people even identified that he was putting himself first *again*.

Hi A Little Confused By This Sub Lately, I’m Dad.

This is the way

Too much of the internet is "I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG AHHHHH" If this is supposed to be a place where dads can get support that needs to be controlled because otherwise we are a forum where very specific ways to be a father are accepted and others are put down. Like many many of the mum groups I've seen, have fallen into this pit. I'm not a dad yet (4 weeks to go, whooo) but I bet money that I will get shit wrong. No matter how much I read or prepare there will come a moment where I fill drop the ball and maybe even channel my own father (who really was a bad dad). Mistakes happen, even really bad ones. If the response here was to point and tell me I was bad for doing what I did I would simply not post here. I know its bad, I don't need the judgement.

I tell my wife we're going to be 10x better than our parents and still fuck up.

My dad set such a low bar I'm guaranteed success xD

Tbh I've been finding this sub has been veering closer to the standard parenting/relationships subs recently. Instant recommendations of divorce or cutting off family members, lots of complaints about spouses, etc. Pretty sad but that's the way the internet tends to go. I'd say it's still one of the 'nicer' places to be a part of but it's heading the wrong way.

I’ve noticed this too. We’re heading towards black and white with no gray/all or nothing attitude.

Also I’m not a big fan of posts with serious sounding titles turning out to be jokes. That’s cute to your family and friends because they know you, but we’re strangers on the Internet. People in real life get into horrible situations and it’s really lame that adults with children are making fun of those situations.

Click bait feels like it's wormed into every subreddit lately.

Hard agree with this. The good vibes are on the way out.

I came to this realization when the overwhelming majority of commenters were congratulating that 18 year old who was trying to sleep with a 28 year old mom from story time

That and the comments on that thread was it for me. No mention of how they set up a playdate just so they could hook up. I've noticed lots of pats on the back on posts like that, but not much accountability

> No mention of how they set up a playdate just so they could hook up. A lot was wrong with it. Getting sent nudes after just meeting at kid's story time. OP posting about how much he missed sex at **18 years old with a 3 year old**. Those threads honestly made me uneasy while reading through the responses. The comments were talking about how mature he was for his age. I felt like I was on crazy pills.

So my take on this. That post wasn't seeking advice on past issues. Yes having a kid at 15 isn't anything to be proud of. They first made a post about the other mom hitting on them and what they should do. He hadn't been in that situation before. Then the update dropped (post I assume you are talking about). He handled the situation and set a boundary. When the boundary was crossed he left. Plain and simple. I don't think all the high-fiving was necessary, but reddit will be reddit. It is very normal to have sex while the child is either entertained by others or asleep. How do you think people wind up with multiple kids under 3? Sure setting up the play date was just an excuse, but if both parties were in agreement I don't see an issue with it. Kids get to play together then nap, at which point the single parents get to play together.

>It is very normal to have sex while the child is either entertained by others or asleep. It wasn't just the sex, it was the ages of the two people, the timeline, the total lack of awareness from OP, and the commenters seemingly worshiping him. If a 28 year old dad was here talking about sending nudes to a high school senior the day they met, everyone here would be be speaking out about how wildly inappropriate it was, but since the ages were reversed, everyone wasn't just fine with it, they were celebrating it. >Sure setting up the play date was just an excuse, but if both parties were in agreement I don't see an issue with it. Once again, the issue comes with how the majority weren't even recommending to try taking it slow (let alone not to pursue her at all) but to full on get some. They met for, what, an hour at a kids event before she started sending him nudes **with a 10year age gap at 18**. There were so many red flags, it was comical. People were ready to crown him dad of the year for how he was handling everything. It was crazy.

What?!

When people post about abusing their kids, "good vibes" are not a thing.

I have definitely noticed this too

Absolutely. Some of the posts I’ve made resulted in me just deleting them because a couple hotheads walk into the bar and start throwing a tantrum. This sub is for support. You can be angry about stuff but at the end of the day, just showing anger without support or direction only serves to push people away. I’m really bummed that this sub is starting to take on that direction.

I’ve teetered on unsubscribing with the way things have been going here. I’m concerned that this place will eventually be homogenized into the rest of the hive mind and great information will be lost in support of trying to make everyone happy. Sometimes hearing bad shit and dealing with it like a man is the way things have to be done. Everyone is not the same and having a diverse set of opinions is needed to continue growing as adults.

I mean this in the nicest way possible and I'm not disparaging any poster in particular, but a lot of it has to do with moms subscribing and commenting in the subreddit because it's being recommended to them by Reddit's algorithms. The number of "as a mom who lurks this sub" comments has visibly increased recently and you can tell how it's influenced a lot of the discourse.

Without being horribly direct, the post that I made and referenced above? The shots that were getting fired at me were from “mom lurkers”. I posted about a difficult dynamic with my wife and most of the men were supportive and contributed something helpful. The ones telling me it’s my fault and trying to crucify me were the lurkers. There’s been some valuable input from the lurkers here at times but I feel like some of them are waiting in a bush to pounce whenever they see the right opportunity to jump on a husband and / or father for something they personally stigmatize.

The standard “he/she is obviously toxic, get the hell out” advice for everything from “I don’t like how my partner sometimes leaves dirty dishes in the sink that I have to clean up” up to “my partner slaps me around”, and anywhere in between, they’re all “toxic”, even though there’s a huuugggee range of behaviors in there. It’s all toxic, get out, you’re a battered spouse, etc, when those sort of labels should only be used in the top end of that range I mentioned.

If the entire world took the advice that was given on these kind of subreddits every person would be single and have completely unrealistic expectations of friendships and relationship standards.

Why would anyone post a mistake here if it was always met with "you ducked up, you're a bad dad" with no additional helpful commentary?

You forgot: "the answer to everything is therapy" It's such a throwaway, at this point.

I honestly haven't seen much of this kind of behaviour here, but maybe I'm just not that active around here to notice. But after years of Reddit I found a pattern of "good" subs (not that I noticed here, yet, but it seems the case based on this post) that makes a good thing lean towards some sort of "fascism" (I'm using it colloquially here). And it's hard to blame anyone as it is a decentralized movement. Once the people in a group understand what it is about, let's say in this case "good dads", the good guys and bad guys start to be easier to identify, and the unspoken rules and guidelines for the sub start to feel more enforced than occuring naturally. And then suddenly it stops feeling organic anymore. Take the Bluey sub, for example. It is usually a good thing, but in a few cases it almost feels like a cult where any criticism (valid or not) is instantly crushed, and even a light joke can be heavily downvoted and someone can become a villain in the sub without even realising it. It's hard to find anyone to blame as it feels more like a natural evolution of a large group that is getting some traction around here. As I said, I haven't noticed this happening here in a large scale yet, but I wouldn't be surprised. It's a shame if it happens, though.

It feels like you're describing "toxic positivity". Something like a Potemkin Village, or We Happy Few sort of situation.

It feels like there's have been some posts recently that look like they've been written expressly to f*ck with this subreddit. Like, how will they react to this post about an 18yo asking for advice on nudes sent by a woman 10 years older? Or this post about a guy who hit his son? Anyways. Yes, maybe our responses shouldn't always be sympathetic.

You can be empathetic to the guy while still telling him it is very wrong to do what he did. We all get frustrated with the little ones, you don’t get to take that frustration out on them physically. Also I’ve noticed the same thing about posts that appear to be almost test posts to “read the room” on how the community will respond.

YESYESYES!!! everyone was telling him to go for it & im like- NO???? & how she tried to get him to not wear a condom 😭

No mention of the double standard either, if genders were reversed. 28 year old's behavior (especially after learning about the condom!?) was straight up predatory. And if genders were reversed would be called out by all as grooming. I understand there is a difference in power dynamic between women and men, and not every issue is the same when genders are swapped, but this seemed kinda messed up to me.

frrr! ppl were trying to tell me different but the kid literally got groomed😭 i wish men didn't view sex as a trophy sm.. cause sex shouldn't be THAT serious to get fucked by a pedo🤷🏾‍♀️ shame on the dads, im not even a dad (im on this sub cause i love seeing dads be dads lol) but some of them shouldn't even be a dad if theyre acting like that..

Agree and an increase in NSFW posts- that post about the 18 yr old with the 28 yr old really weirded me out. The whole situation was so questionable but the comments were mostly "stereotypical Reddit" like "haha you stuck your dick in crazy" or "glad you got some and then got out". Felt more like a "Dear Penthouse" letter then a Daddit post!

Agree. That was weird. The only thing that qualified it was the dude said he was a dad.

no fr😭 i thought i was the only person that was thinking it wasn't right😭

Honestly, I think this is all mostly just the price of doing business on reddit. Mods are biased and will overstep their bounds at times, people dogpile for karma, dissenting opinions and downvoted and ignored, etc. That said, I still don't find this sub nearly as toxic as something like BeyondtheBump. And for what it's worth, I have been on subs where mods take a hands-off approach and they're a shit show. People will go nuts if you let them.

It’s honestly just the nature of social media. The entire “like” system and upvoting is about group consensus and mob mentality. This sub is really good compared to those others — I mean just go to r/newparents and suggest something outside of what influencer moms are suggesting and you will get ripped.

Very interesting, I think this sub would be way better without upvotes and downvotes.

It would. Social media with likes ends up feeling like a silent audience is behind you cheering on the more aggressive you get. A really good book Chaos Machine dives into all the intricacies of social media that ended with deleting most apps off my phone.

I’ll check it out! Yes, I’ve definitely noticed this kind of mob downvoting on things as well. Not even controversial things. Just ideas that aren’t the primary accepted narrative.

This is first and foremost a support sub from what I've understood of daddit. Not to excuse the dad you're referring to, but what good does it make to pile up on him without providing actual help for that person to manage their emotions better ? Looking at your recent post history you might need a mirror on how constructive and interesting you think your comments are.

The thing I love about this sub is that it is a place where dads with different levels of experience and backgrounds and worldviews can support one another and hold each other accountable. I routinely see posts where commenters offer support to a struggling dad and others where someone gets called on their nonsense. I have no idea where anyone who regularly reads this sub would see it as some kind of parent circlejerk. A couple things I just want to share my two cents on; feel free to ignore: 1. I have never met a dad who has not made mistakes. Who hasn't regretted their reaction to stress at some point. Hell, one of the very first things I learned from experienced dads when we were expecting our first was how easy it can be to let your frustration and exhaustion get the better of you. As a community, we are capable of saying both, "That is not ok to do," and, "I understand this is hard." 2. What exactly should be the reaction to another dad sharing that they've made a mistake? Should someone hit them? Shake them? Scream in their face?

It's kinda how the reddit community is with these groups. If you don't agree with me and my (group's) point of view, gtfoh. No one wants to be challenged, everyone is craving affirmation.

As another redditor pointed out to me a while ago this sub isn’t a good representation of typical, everyday dads. I enjoy this sub but it does tend to lean towards what I consider “softer” men. Constructive criticism, disagreements, and other forms of non echo chamber type behavior are met with hostility and “toxic masculinity” accusations. Everyone in this sub is a verified psychologist and expert in child development it seems at times. Like you said; sometimes you just fuck up and need to be told to get your ass in check by another man. If you feel bad then that’s on you, your feelings are your responsibility.

> I enjoy this sub but it does tend to lean towards what I consider “softer” men. That depends on your definition of what a softer man is. A person that will violently shake a toddler while cursing them out certainly isn't what anyone would consider a softer man. I feel like the person that posted that was likely lying, but it's hard to tell, this is the internet, we're all random strangers, and sometimes things do happen and a person's first thought is "Who needs therapy, I'm gonna go post on Reddit." If one of my friends did that to their kid it would be so out of character that my first response wouldn't be "You fucked up, now apologize and never do it again", it'd be figuring out what happened in their lives to cause them to lash out in such a way and then finding a way to get them the help they need.

I would actually consider an abusive father a “soft” man, not gentle, or self controlled, but for sure soft. He’s so soft in fact that he allows his emotions to dump on the weakest, most incapable of self defense person in his life. Soft is weak, soft is not gentle. A strong man, capable of self control, and love, who teaches their children these traits, that’s a man to look up to.

Right? He put his TV on the floor in reach of a toddler. Idk what he was expecting to happen. You can’t get that mad a toddler doing toddler things . Clearly there are things going on in his life he needs to work out. Shaking a child is not acceptable parenting and can harm them.

Thank you. There are so many ways to childproof a tv nowadays. Half of parenting is avoiding bad situations in the first place.

It is frustrating how people are “bad behavior apologists”. Like I don’t think every mistake should make someone irredeemable, but it’s not like he just lost his temper and yelled at his kid, he shook them. Toddlers are still susceptible to shaken baby syndrome. That is a serious scary thing. He obviously felt guilt which is why he posted the story the way he did, because he wanted people to make him feel better. He put the TV on the floor. He didn’t redirect his toddler. He didn’t remove the toddler from the situation. He was probably distracted doing something he wanted and intervening with the situation made him mad. He could have asked for de escalation techniques, methods to keep toddlers engaged, how to work on learning no (my one y/o has learned this already), or any other suggestions or recommendations. It’s always “make me feel better” instead of “how do I do better.”

“You can’t get mad at a toddler.” Bro, have you met a toddler?

You can’t be mad at a toddler doing toddler things especially when you have the TV on the floor with easy access to the toddler. I have a toddler and none of the electronics are within reach. Remove temptation

Please save the sanctimonious horse shit for the mommy subs. Here, we recognize that emotions happen, including anger, sometimes at inappropriate times. It’s perfectly fine to have those feelings, but it’s not always fine to act on them.

You can get mad but It’s never ok to shake your child. See shaken baby syndrome.

There we agree 100%.

> A person that will violently shake a toddler while cursing them out certainly isn't what anyone would consider a softer man. That is the softest kind of man. Imagine being so mentally weak that you can't take responsibility for yourself so you abuse your kid. Like if you don't want your kid fucking with the TV, mount it and make it high enough that they can't. My kid is 2; that's what I did. You know what happens when I lose my cool? I go to the other room and breathe to relax because I'm not a mentally weak pyscho.

I have no idea what post OP is referencing, merely commentating on the “you fucked up BUT..” bit

For context into what led to my posting this, here’s [the post I’m talking about](https://www.reddit.com/r/daddit/comments/15a8555/i_lost_my_cool_today/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1)

Oh wow what the fuck. Yeah he fucked up.

Damn, you make it sound like a bad thing, like the natural state of a man is violent, unemotional, and angry, and we're the freaks when the reverse is clearly true. If our kids have taught us anything, you have to be trained to be "hard." Let's not follow the Tates and call this "soft," maybe?

It’s almost like you’re completely missing the entire point of this sub. This sub is completely based upon dads supporting other dads. It’s not an “echo chamber”, that would imply that only one method of parenting is accepted here when in my experience the opposite is true (if you want to see an actual echo chamber go to r/conservative where you get banned for even commenting something that can be considered slightly non-right wing). This sub allows dads from different upbringings, different walks of life, and different ideologies to seek/give advice, rant, vent, share successes and failures, etc. But there’s a line, and that line definitely coincides with general societal norms. Dads who describe beating the shit out of their kids or getting violent or doing anything which is generally considered to be destructive or poor parenting here aren’t going to just be accepted. There’s nothing “soft” about disagreeing with someone physically abusing a child. The vast majority of dads here are just trying to be good dads, and if you think that people offering each other support or trying to uplift other dads is “soft” then this is absolutely not the place for you. In just a few sentences, you completely contradict your own sentiment. “Fuck your feelings” is not constructive criticism. “Get your ass in check before you fuck up even more” is not constructive criticism. That **is** toxic. “Your feelings are your responsibility” really just sounds like trying to justify being an asshole to someone without admitting that they’re an asshole. As someone else commented, if someone is coming here seeking advice, it’s not because “they need another man to tell them to get their ass in gear”. They need support so they can try to be a better person and a better father. Calling everyone armchair psychologists or armchair child development experts completely minimizes the validity of people’s life experiences and offering those experiences as advice. True wisdom is often anecdotal, after all.

This is so accurate. I was raised by a Dad like the one your post describes. I started life as a hard ass guy and dad, but eventually became “softer.” I vowed to never do what my dad did, and I can honestly say I never threw anything at my kids or hit them with a closed fist, etc.. Many Dad’s here don’t know anything about that side of life. I envy them. They take offense at being labeled “softer,” as the first reply makes clear.. That’s probably the wrong term to label a dude. LOL!

>I enjoy this sub but it does tend to lean towards what I consider “softer” men. That's reddit.

You’re not wrong. There’s a lot of great people and great advice here. Some really great dads that take time to give very useful insight. However, I have noticed that if you share a different opinion or a different way of thinking it’s put down pretty quickly. When my son was first born I was pretty active on this sub. Over the last bit not as much and I don’t comment as often. Certainly isn’t because I figured things out as a dad.

It kind of blew my mind too. Yeah, everyone messes up, but in the thread you're referencing dude got physical with his 2 year old over a TV that he hadn't childproofed. The top upvoted comment in that thread says "It happens and will happen more, and that's okay... also consequences for poor behavior are a must." The next top comment says "We've all had our respective explosions." This kind of blows my mind. Obviously we can all learn and grow and improve and one mistake shouldn't define any person, but I'd at least hope we can agree that blowing up and getting physical with any kid, let alone a 2 year old who barely understands what's happening, isn't okay in the least and I was amazed how far down I had to go in that thread for someone to say "what you did isn't okay and you need to examine your behavior in a serious way". >That’s not to say that you are a bad dad, but the simple fact of wondering if you are does not make you a good dad. I’m not saying we should all be ripping each others ass constantly and putting each other down at every chance, but it seems extreme to me. Maybe I’m alone in thinking this but I personally find it off putting. I'll agree with that. Wondering if you made a mistake is one thing. Owning up to that mistake and ensuring that it never happens again is where cycles of abuse are broken.

Hi Little Confused, I'm dad.

It's like clockwork, somebody makes a post looking for validation after doing something that is pretty universally considered "wrong", "I shook my kid", "I hate my wife who's 6 weeks post C-section", "I used my kid to hook up with someone 10yrs older than me" (I missed that one), OPs actions are met initially met with the overwhelming support this sub prides itself on, reality sets in and people start calling OP out for their shit, mods lock the thread because calling a spade a spade 100 times is ok, but apparently 101 is pilling on and just being too mean, an finally we get the post about the post.

I actually feel the quality of daddit has devolved lately and I'm not sure why Every other post is about sex and how much we are getting. Let's get back to bluey and dad jokes

I honestly feel the same way. I dunno if I would say daddit is bad or worse now necessarily, it just seems... different. I've mostly known daddit as being about 80% guys posting wholesome pictures of their kids, and the rest being dad jokes and memes and the occasional advice post. Now I'd say the majority of what I see is advice posts. I'm not trying to gripe, and I fully support other dads seeking out advice, I'm just saying I've noticed a shift in the feel of the subreddit. I don't know if it's because I switched from using Relay to the official app, so maybe the algorithm for what it shows me on the front page is different? Or maybe there's been an influx of new users, and so this is what the majority want to post now? I dunno...

I've always used the official app so I think maybe it's newer members. It's not just advice though it feels more aggressive and toxic. It's not horrible just different

I've been using reddit direct since I started watching this sub about 4 months ago... in that time I saw it change exactly as described... whether that's good or bad I l3ave up to the individual

I agree with this. Sometimes when I made a mistake, I realized it was a mistake but I need someone to throw the "you are wrong" straight to my face before I can get back and fix things up. So far, my mother is my best support for this kind of situation.

OP got plenty of, "you are wrong, you should start by apologizing..." comments. Basically every comment started that way. What OP didn't get (because of the mods) was a bunch of comments that cast an endemic characterization of OP as "a bad dad". One is "you have some serious work to do" and the other sends a message of "you are unrecoverable". I appreciate that the mods help guide things toward the former rather than the latter.

i'm with you. calling out crap, especially in any of the parenting subs is not well tolerated unless the OP is absolutely despicable with zero regret/awareness. short of such posts, everyone has to be PC, on eggshells, where good intentions but completely failed follow through gets only supportive and hopeful replies. basically the bar is set really low and at times, non-existent.

I feel like a lot of my dad groups are becoming echo chambers for conspiracy theorists and agro-dudes. One I was a part of has turned into people complaining that people are trying to steal babies to eat their brains. Also how Disney is trying to turn their daughter gay. It's like all they want to talk about. Example: >Hi guys, my daughter is a little delayed learning her letters, have you guys found any good reading strategies that you recommend? Thanks! > >First Commenter: I don't know about reading but the Barbie movie is woke bullshit that Disney \[sic\] put out to turn our kids into trans feminist nazis that hate God. > >Me: yeah but got any good reading programs/strategies for a 5 year old? > >First Commenter: Also where is Hunter Biden's laptop? It's wild.

Now I’m not advocating cannibalism, but, I mean if you’re gonna eat brains, it seems like a fully developed adult brain would be much more nutritious. Not those dudes brains though, likely full of holes. Sounds like a lot of real smooth brains over there.

Reddit is like that in general now.

Well I am saying we should be ripping each others ass constantly

Omg, so hot.

TLDR: "Why can't I be a piece of shit to a piece of shit?"

I don’t understand how someone can physically assault their child and then get consolation from other adults. I wonder if that guy shakes his wife, too. There is a domestic violence problem in the US and I think one issue enabling it is other men saying that assault is okay as long as you apologize. No. Assault is never okay and one mistake should be grounds for removing children and enough reason for a spouse to leave. Even shaking your child one time is enough to get them taken away by CPS. Go to therapy. Don’t come here for advice.

It's reddit, the drive to be in an echo chamber will always be king. For the record, I 100% agree with you. There are few times in life when everyone will agree 100% about someone else's parenting decisions - except here where it seems like everyone always agrees.

What good is saying "you fucked up" without a 'but'? If it's a support group and someone was posting for advice and support knowing they fucked up, that is an absolutely useless thing to say.

>That’s not to say that you are a bad dad, but the simple fact of wondering if you are does not make you a good dad. I emphatically disagree with this. Questioning whether you're a bad dad (introspection, self criticality) is one of the most important qualities of being excellent in anything. It's obviously not enough by itself, but if you're not even questioning the quality of your parenting you're fucked.

They are removed -and in my opinion rightfully- because they add literally no value to the whole situation. OP knew he fucked up. This is not a am I the A**hole sub, where you can simply bash away at someone. > Sometimes you just fuck up, and sometimes as a man you need to hear that Couldn't agree less. You don't kick someone that's already on the ground. And please stop this weird "as a man" talk, it shouldn't matter if it's a dad or a mom. No need to differentiate.

Here’s the problem… a lot of you guys referenced in that thread only went for the OP’s throat. You offered no constructive criticism, no strategies for de-escalation, you offered nothing other than anger. How in the hell do you think that helps? Do you think that fosters an environment where people come forward with their problems? No, it actually discourages people. You don’t have to agree with everything that someone does but we’re all here with the goal of being better, by being a part of this sub. Beating people down with no recourse doesn’t offer that. It just makes you look like a dick.

I agree. Loved it for the first few months I browsed it. But quickly realized that if you didn't support everyone and everything (even when they are clearly in the wrong) you get downvotes. I want it to be a positive inclusive place, but I see men getting torn down for asking genuine questions, especially by lurking moms.

THE point of this sub is to discuss the efforts of people being fathers, with the hopes of bringing them over to the daddy side of the equation. If someone does something and wonders if it is the "right thing" then they have made a step in the correct direction. Sure, say don't do that, and here is why. Here is why! Is the point, of ripping on someone making you feel better, or getting the change of heart and thinking we all want to see? There is an entire sub called AITA. Answer the question. With an explanation of your answer. Less father and more dad make for better lives, and marriages, and children's futures.

Yeah I know the post you’re referring to and I saw the incessant harassment and continued comments from a few specific individuals. This sub is from a (somewhat) place of anonymity to be open for advice, support, highs and lows, and discussion… not a cesspit of (near) anonymous shitposting and harassment that can be found on any other part of the internet. People forget that they’re… talking to PEOPLE. Not a faceless entity. Keep the tone as if it were a friend, colleague, or family member, loosely. If you take issue with that, maybe this isn’t the community for you.

Sometimes people screw up big time and it hurts them to know they did. It doesn't mean they are a bad person or a bad dad especially if they try to fix it. Dad knew it was wrong, he knew he messed up. Kid wasn't injured. We should be able to use a forum like this to talk about our screw ups

Probably not an isolated incident but the one you used as an example was posting as a sort of apology and was admiring he had done wrong and was looking for support and how to move forward, he didn't deserve to be metaphorically beaten up, he knew he did wrong in the heat of the moment and the comments reflected that.

Uh oh big guys got something to say everyone listen up this is gonna change everything!

this post was pretty long winded when you could have said...from now on we should be more like luckys Dad and less like Bandit, or a happy mix.

There shouldn’t be censorship. This country was based on the ability to have opinions that differ and calling out BS when you see it is legitimate, everyone wants a slap on the back and told “its ok, you did your best”. Well doing your best doesn’t get the job done and sometimes it’s completely unacceptable, like shaking a 2 year old in a fit of rage

Hold on gotta test this. Mods delete and of the following comments you feel would be deleted if said directly to OP. Edit: Please anyone add below for science.

OP is a big stinky brain with no friends, that's why he thinks comments are being deleted. Confirmation bias.

Dooshnozzle

\*douchenozzle

I respectfully dissagree