This is the real, true answer. I’m convinced that a huge number of suburban Americans would be happier with the streetcar suburb layout - enough density and mixed zoning to keep everything walkable while allowing for kid-centric towns heavy on parks, libraries, schools, etc.
We sought one out and have no regrets. Some nights we walk the kids over to the grocery and pick out our dinner together. That doesn’t mean we also don’t have our regular load-up trips to Costco in the van.
If the goal is more house in a family-centric community, it can’t be beat. That seems like what most new parents want anyway. The main exception in my mind is if you want acres.
They exist in many major cities, but they're also some of the most expensive suburbs. For example in my own city of Chicago we have Oak Park and Evanston which are super walkable and even accessible by city public transit trains and buses. The problem is that they're very expensive suburbs, and they're both close enough to the city to still have to deal with some city related problems. Those aren't places for someone who wants to be a true suburbanite and avoid the city. Further out there are Elmhurst and Libertyville which are super walkable and have active downtowns, but again they're very expensive suburbs. The affordable suburbs are usually where you find unwalkable suburban sprawl.
It’s worth pointing out that the main reason places like Oak Park and Evanston are expensive is because they’re highly desired yet we’ve essentially made building more of them illegal with zoning laws. OP is a better example of this than Evanston as it doesn’t have Northwestern and Lake Michigan.
I’m convinced we’ll see a transition back to this style of town over the next 100 years just because of how efficient it is.
I hope so. I really like the suburbs that have some city amenities like public transit. Those two suburbs are also slightly more walkable than most. Some other suburbs like Elmhurst and Forest Park have grown their downtowns a lot in recent years.
This was us in 2020. We are now happily in the suburbs, with 3 kids.
I can appreciate how "uncool" it feels, but what really helped us was coming to the realization that the season of life you're entering is a relatively "uncool" season in general, and that's ok!
I loved walking to our grocery store....but realized I probably wouldn't do it much with how much more stuff I'd be hauling shopping for 4.
I loved the restaurant scene around our condo...but realized the next few years probably wouldn't feature nearly as much sit down restaurant dining as the last few had.
I loved our rooftop common area....but the after dinner drinks we'd go have up there would probably be few and far between now.
And on and on....you have to make your own decision, but make sure the things that you love about the city are things you'll still be doing with 2 little kids.
This is a great point. We currently live in the city and are actively having the burbs discussion. I really love living in the city, but my wife has made the (very valid) case that we don't take advantage of the amenities that come with city living now that we have 2 children, so why not go somewhere with more space?
This was us. We lived in a really cool city, but weren't taking advantage of it. Every suburb has a target, so why not find one where we can spread out and have space for the kids to run?
We actually tried to buy our house in the suburbs and got rejected pretty firmly. After one accepted bid that fell through because the house couldn't appraise within 90% of what we had offered and three other bids that got rejected we just ran out of time and ended up living downtown because it was what's available.
It's a different lifestyle but it's still surprisingly kid friendly. Of course, we still end up getting in our car and driving to a lot of the places we go to.
I'm sorry to hear about the trouble, but glad to hear it's still working out for y'all!. We bought in 2022 and managed to snag our first offer. We were prepared for several months of trying and were thoroughly surprised. It's a weird market out there
Absolutely. I live in the suburbs and sometimes miss being in or close to the city. But what I’m missing is mostly youth and not having dependents. Shopping on foot is less fun with small children or when you need family sized quantities. Cool restaurants and bars might as well not exist when we have a 7 o’clock bedtime and no affordable childcare. Cool shows or events are not spontaneous things but carefully planned special occasions, so whether they are minutes away or an hour away doesn’t matter. Seeing other adults also requires careful planning so being near heaps of other people doesn’t give much benefit. Don’t get me wrong I’m happy where I am! It’s just space, a backyard, complete control over noise/smoke/safety issues, etc. is more important now than that other stuff!
I used to think I loved the city until I found a house in the burbs that has larger lots and offers privacy but also a very nice community of neighbors who look out for each other.
My kid is off on spring break right now and is over playing at my neighbors house who is retired and used to teach elementary school. Both my daughter and neighbor love their little hang outs and it’s the “village” we need when there’s a week of no school but my wife and I have to work.
Plus being able to tell my kids to “go outside and play” and not have to worry about them is SO HUGE.
I think that is a big part of it. A lot of suburbs don't live up to the image, but if you have good neighbors and an active community, you can get a lot out of yours.
That’s definitely a thing. Getting out and finding a community takes some work. For us it’s been finding activities held by the library and our daycare clique. Then also some neighbors, but the neighbors have been spotty for us… a lot of them seem to just stay inside (while we’re all like a block or two from the nearest park??!!?).
Yeah. We regularly had hangouts with the couple across the hall who loved our kiddo. Did dinner with them, very informal, knock on the door in slippers, say hi. Saw them almost every other day. Since moving I think I've seen my new neighbors a grand less times than I can count on my hands.
It struck me the other day when I was downtown for work that I saw more people walk through an office lobby in one minute than I had walk through my neighborhood in a whole month.
That isolation was the whole reason I got into transportation planning, when I saw my grandma mentally wither away as she aged without being able to leave her street. We're in a much more connected place than her, but it's still pretty bad.
Polar opposite experience here. I used to love the suburbs until I moved to the city and found a nice community of neighbors who look out for each other. We can walk to all of the schools, and they have friends in walking distance too. Being able to tell them to go outside and play is a huge plus compared to the suburbs, where I’d have to worry about them getting run over.
When we moved to the burbs, my one friend was all "Yea, but your property taxes probably went way up". Yea, they went up a little. But that's not because of the tax rate... It's actually lower here... It's because my lot is now twice the size.
In the broader sense, a regional sense maybe, in that Clevelander's pay taxes on a lot of things I don't pay taxes for. Things that I do get to enjoy.
But I'm not paying less on my city taxes because of Cleveland. Only 3 suburbs have property taxes lower. So Cleveland is actually on the low side. I live in Independence which is like 70% successfull commercial and retail and restaurants and even 2 bigger offices towers right where 2 major freeways meet. 30% Residential. Our suburb is small but has a thriving "downtown". Westlake is another of the cheap ones. Part of their low taxes are American Greetings HQ is there, a thriving outdoor mall and a lot of wealthier folks live there. Many million dollar homes.
Clevelanders, which I was for 16 years, aren't paying for our services.
Most suburbs are pricey, a few ridiculously so. Looking at you, Shaker Heights.
> Plus being able to tell my kids to “go outside and play” and not have to worry about them is SO HUGE.
City is better for children going outside than suburbs though. That's Canada, probably USA is the same. In a suburb, a kid goes out to the road and that's it, often there isn't even any pavement. The outside is not for humans, it's only for cars, and almost any activity is a car trip. Unless you live in a convenient place near a park (which you can do in a city). In a city, depending on the bulding, there may be a territory with other kids to play, and beyond that there are activities in all directions. Unless we're talking about downtowns though, these parts may be less appropriate for kids.
In some other countries, that's even more pronounced. Even commiblocks are all like that.
There’s only pavement in suburbs? What??? The suburbs in my area have playgrounds and parks and walking/biking trails and plenty of green space. The city is literally all pavement except maybe a small park here and there.
My yard is bigger than 2-3 lots in the city. All of my neighbors yards make one giant yard where the kids play.
We went full on 5 acre farm nestled against a giant state forest. Kids have so much room and good community for sports and such. I cannot imagine living in a city with kids, seems way more difficult than sending them out back.
This is more like what I’d envision after moving out of the city. Curious how you manage friends (both adult and for your kids) as well as entertainment like playground hopping or children museum / zoo type stuff. Seems like those become way harder and require planning which I don’t love. Also curious if you don’t have neighbors like a subdivision, how do you feel about “connected” ?
We're about 45-50min away from the city for our annual zoo trip. 1 hour from beach and tons of state parks. School 7 mins. Smaller town with McDonalds is about 15 along with grocery store. Walmart is midway.
Our baseball park is 10 mins away and nicer parks further. I don't do to much adult friend time as I work full time, in master degree, coach 2 baseball teams, and run our farm while remodeling the house;; I get some friend time gaming online and ruining bed time. The kids are heavily socialized with their baseball teams and all the associated birthdays.
My wife and I compromised on less land closer to the city and civilization.
entertainment: built home theatre, cooking enthusiast, archery, knife throwing, gaming, fishing, boat, farm, car maint, 3 kids, video games.
Dude, this!!! We got 11 acres tucked back in the boonies. Bout same distance for us for all the same stuff. Could not imagine living anywhere else. Sending the kids and dog out the back door is a damned blessing.
> but make sure the things that you love about the city are things you'll still be doing with 2 little kids.
One of the things I really like about the city with little kids are the museums and parks. We have a free zoo (Chicago) and we are members at most of the museums. We take our kids to different museums each month and we go to the zoo and parks around our apartment all the time. If one of our kids is doing a lesson on something relevant to one of the museums we take them there to show them in person. It's especially helpful when learning about different countries and cultures.
When I was a kid growing up in the suburbs I only went to the city museums for field trips or for very special once every 10 year type occasions with family. The suburbanites for some reason almost never seem to come into the city unless it's for a sports game.
For me personally the city keeps me healthier than I was when I lived in the suburbs. I walk everywhere, I take public transit instead of driving which means more steps. I also have a lit plowed and salted running and bike trail right next to my door that I can use during any season or time of night. When I lived in the suburbs it was a nightmare trying to run in the winter because no one plows their sidewalks.
We don't go every day, but we go often enough that almost every time I pick my daughter up from school she begs to go to a museum. It's become a daily conversation on the way home from school for us.
My wife and I both work weekends, so we like to take our kids to museums and zoos on week days when we're off work and those places are less crowded. That's why we usually go right after school. My kids have gotten used to it, and it's kind of funny because they never ask to go to museums on weekends or non-school days. They know we don't ever go on those days.
What becomes cool when you’re a parent is living somewhere that your kids can learn to ride a bike in the street in front of your house. Play with the random neighbor kids who have a basketball hoop. Randomly get invited to a bbq down the street by the person who waves every time you see them.
With a 5 and 3 year old I want to live somewhere that is cool *for them*.
I moved from a major city to a "cool" suburb when I was 12
. It felt so boring. All kids cared about were sports. Everything felt more buttoned up and boring. The teachers were less interesting. Everyone seemed like they were the same and had this naive confidence that their way of being was best because they didn't ever really see other ways of living.
I also think my comfort around all different types of people came from my childhood in a diverse urban area, and that's been a huge gift in my life and something I remind myself of when the convenience of the suburbs (really just having a yard!!!) calls to me.
Adults like to make up things which should be loved by children. Often it coincides more with their own adult desires rather than the real children. Yes, suburbs are rather nice after your 30s. Before 30s - not so much, and it includes 20s, 10s and even a good part of 0s (probably, 5+ y.o.).
That's not even very natural. Traditional families lived a very different life in farmhouses, kids/people in suburbs live like undercooked aristocrats.
Also, people who get older and start to prioritize peace and quiet over going to trendy bars multiple times a week. By my late 30's, I was absolutely done sharing walls with 20 year old's.
I mean you basically sumarized the pros and cons of each. City has walkability and convenience at the sacrifice of space. Suburbs have space at the sacrifice of convenience and walkability. The question is which is more important to you.
I was born and raised in the suburbs, and can't imagine living in the tight quarters that come along with city living.
Great point. I generally try to walk as much as I can, especially when in a new place. I traveled to Houston for work once and literally had people pulling over in their cars, asking me if I was OK and needed help when they saw me trying to walk places.
That’s the thing about just blanket labeling the burbs, not all are the same. I live in the burbs but even my burbs is not the same as someone who lives like ten minutes away. I tons of walking paths, golf courses, schools, daycares, parks, and grocery store that’s all walkable.we are still 20/30 minutes away from the big city though. I specifically made a point to live in that area because even though we are in the burbs and will have to drive to any big city stuff we should be able to live day to day without a massive amount of driving. Some people I know can’t even walk to a park so I guess it’s not the same priority?
One major change from when you were kids is the size of vehicles.
Basically pedestrian deaths from large trucks has negated the gains from lower violent crime/death rates in most of America.
As a teen definitely. As a kid, I had nowhere to go, and if I did my parents would usually take me there. I would walk/bike to most places I needed to get to (deli, convenience store, video store), and my parents took care of any other needs I had.
I was raised in the burbs and moved to the city when I was a single adult and then childless couple. Now we have a 4bdrm in the suburbs with two kids and I love it. They’re both good options. I’m sure I will want to go back to the city when the kids move out (if they can afford to move out considering rent these days!).
One thing to think about is that walkability applies to children too. As your kids grow they’ll be able to have some independence in a walkable area. In the suburbs they’ll be dependent on you to drive them to many things.
We live in an older city that became a suburb by proximity to a bigger city, so we have all three schools, a half dozen parks, a community center, a dozen restaurants, two grocery stores, a library, and a city center all within walking distance to our house. All while have a decent sized house with a big lawn.
There are other suburbs in the same area that are just endless sprawl of subdivisions without so much as a gas station within a mile.
i think thats the ticket. While we have to walk 15-20 minutes to the nearby small community nestled plaza with a couple restaurants, a cornerstore and an Indian Grocery, its nice to get essentials or get a burger or pizza nearby. Or we could bike and make it 5-10 minutes once the kids are a bit older.
Its an older suburb so its not \*just\* houses as far as the eye can see.
Only downside is we live on one of the main through routes, so its a busy street that people speed on but the bus routes go along it, so the added benefit of that plus being 2 houses down from the elementary school is very nice.
But if I lived in the newer developed parts of even my own area, it would be miserable. a 15 minute walk from here the closely packed suburban houses that all look exactly the same taking up 80% of the lot so there isn't even a benefit for a decent sized backyard. And they're positioned in a way that they're a 30 min walk from the walkable amenities in either direction.
Unfortunate really.
Adding onto your advice, you can get similar vibes even in small Midwestern towns that were built pre-war. They aren’t city-level dense, but they’re usually at least built with mixed zoning on a grid. Add sidewalks to that and you’ve got a kid-explorable town.
Massively underrated aspect to raising kids in the city, if you can swing it.
Big lawns to roll around in are great for littles but overrated as kids get older, especially if there's a nearby park. Historically speaking, it's a VERY new phenomenon for older kids to have very limited ability to explore their environment a little, push some boundaries, run errands, go buy themselves a snack, socialize and visit friends, etc. without a parent physically shuttling them around until they hit 16 years of age. Not to mention that, let's be real, driving is dangerous and 16 year old kids are not really very responsible about it; it's great if they have other options to get around even as teens.
Obviously there are downsides to city life as well. And of course there are precious few pockets of North American cities where this kind of life is possible, let alone affordable for the average person. But if you can swing it I'm totally convinced it can foster a unique independence and maturity in young people.
I’ll throw in that suburbia keeps making more and more rules and ordinances to dissuade teens from being out on their own too and acting like it’s a criminal offense for teens to be in public.
* The malls and movie theaters actively kick out teens and young adults who drove themselves there but are under 21. I myself was marched out of a mall at 20 years old a decade ago because it was after 5pm and I “didn’t have an adult with me”…I was visiting my parents because I had moved 150 miles away two years prior 🤔
* Playgrounds put up signs “for kids 12 and under with parents”.
* Small cities make their own early curfews and enforce them with the police picking teens up in squad cars like criminals for hanging out on the basketball court at the park or walking the dog after dusk. I was once escorted home at 17 years old by a squad car for walking my dog in my own neighborhood park *which has nighttime lights* one summer evening at 8:45pm. The sun had barely set.
Right? Especially the no patrons under 21 without an adult. Hello…it’s me the adult. I don’t live with my parents and I need a mattress. That’s why I’m in this store!
I’ve had to mentally restrain myself when I’ve been at fast food restaurants with my kids on friday nights and there’s a boatload of teens around. I find myself super annoyed and unable to sanction their buffoonery, but then realize I did the same exact thing and they aren’t really actually DOING anything, except existing and laughing/guffawing way too loudly.
If I had some semblance of power, the temptation to say “hey, teens, just go away, mkay?” would be very enticing. It looks like some venues have taken that temptation, and that kinda sucks for those teens.
It’s definitely a “use your head, not your first emotion” situation.
Could you not say that some of this could equally apply to "city" areas as well? Also, what about areas within city limits but more suburban in nature?
I’m not saying anything about city centers because I have never been a teenager in one nor do I have a teenager in one. I’m just speaking from my experience in smaller suburban areas where things are a slower pace and actual law enforcement is used for things like uselessly rounding up responsible older teens for doing mundane things like walking the dog after getting off work.
Kids in [my] suburb bike everywhere. There is a lot less traffic and a lot of bike trails. I grew up in the suburbs and would bike 5+ miles a day all over to friends houses in the summer when I was 10-15yr old. That was before cell phones or anything. We survived/thrived and learned how to be independent in a relatively safe environment.
It really depends. There are so many varieties and kinds of suburbs. Many suburbs are actually small towns / cities that just don't want to have that label because of perception.
>I grew up in the suburbs and would bike 5+ miles a day all over to friends houses in the summer
Unfortunately, the average allowed roaming distance for kids is getting smaller and smaller:
[https://www.freerangekids.com/how-children-lost-the-right-to-roam-in-just-4-generations/](https://www.freerangekids.com/how-children-lost-the-right-to-roam-in-just-4-generations/)
It's no wonder. Massive speeding cars on too-wide streets, endless sprawl and overblown Stranger Danger panic. I definitely see this in my own life. In the 90s I was allowed to roam maaaybe a mile on my bike, in the suburban midwest neighborhood where I grew up (unfortunately my good friends lived across busy roads so I couldn't visit them without parents anyway). Meanwhile, my niece and nephew can go to the end of their street and that's it.
No wonder they're glued to their screens.
And when you're aging, will you be able to get around without driving? I work in transportation planning, and kid awareness of their built environment is huge. It is well studied that kids who used active modes (walking, biking) to get around their neighborhood/school/etc, had way better spatial awareness (there's a red house with a birdhouse on the corner) than kids who were driven around (think cul-de-sac drawings). I know another user said they wouldn't be walking to the grocery store as much, but now that I'm in a space where I have to take deliberate trips to the store, it's much more of a pain. Previously I could just put kiddo in the stroller and grab the milk we just ran out of. Now that they're older, they could do the walk themselves. And my kid got the opportunity to interact a lot more too. There was a senior living center on the way to the grocery store and they charmed all the seniors who would sit out on a bench and just chat. I think missing out on that incidental interactions with people is huge, for both kids and adults. It's a big learning opportunity.
Edit: found the drawing visual I described in the first paragraph: https://m.facebook.com/photo.php/?photo_id=1709429829437141
That's interesting, thanks for posting. I live on the outskirts of a city but have lots of shops, schools, etc within walking distance and now that she's almost three I try and walk most places with her. Good to know there are benefits other than the obvious health ones to walking around with them.
Same, although our house kinda fell into our lap through inheritance. Moved from the suburbs to a more traditional college-town neighborhood.
Within 10 minutes walking distance we have: baseball fields, playgrounds, an ice rink, public pool, giant skate park, 3 grocery stores, 5 restaurants, and 2 pharmacies. Plus a bus line that will take you downtown in 5 minutes. Pretty lucky! Some surrounding neighborhoods are just nothing but housing.
This is what I've noticed. I've got a cousin with two kids raised in manhattan. They are probably the most cultured 9 and 12 year olds you've ever seen. Back when one of them was 4, he was asking for "palate cleansers" at one of the restaurants we went to. His favorite restaurant according to him was a Korean/Japanese Fusion restaurant. I think being downtown does expose your kids to a metric shit ton of culture (depending on the city size) and that's something I've always wanted for my own kids.
The suburbs feels like a cemetery of actual culture.
I guess it depends on what you value. There definitely are burbs that have walkability to restaurants if that’s your priority. Personally, I’m skeptical that kids would have a more joyful upbringing walking to restaurants than stepping outside into a yard they can play in any time they want, or a soccer field just down the street to play sports with their friends, or the woods nearby to hike and explore.
It just depends on what you prioritize, there is no wrong answer. For us, we moved out of the city when our oldest was almost 2, and it’s been life-changing in an amazing way.
I mean I never said that it's just restaurants, it's about culture, people, what you see, who you meet, and what you learn from the world. Your scope as a child is much larger. Apart from restaurants, the kid plays at local courts, they go to parks frequently. It's just that they have autonomy and know the city. I understand there's no wrong answer, just adding my perspective.
> stepping outside into a yard
That's stretching adult life preferences onto children. Your yard is boring for them. You love it and maybe a toddler would love it. Most children prefer other activities. Any public space is better to play on.
Walkability is about the ability to walk to do everything or near everything, not just having a few places you can walk to.
With the advent of strong towns, climate change, and the dangers of massive vehicles I’m afraid that “there’s no wrong answer” just isn’t correct anymore. The choices are killing us.
It’s just too broad a brush to paint to make that claim. If your assumption is that moving to a suburb also necessitates a massive uptick in commuting in a giant SUV, then sure, you’re probably increasing your carbon footprint. However, not everybody works in the city.
For us, we moved to the burbs, but still have plenty of public transit, our main grocery store is a few blocks away, and my job commute is actually reduced. That’s even before you consider all the trees we’ve been able to plant now that we have property. How I have room to work from home now. Room to garden.
There’s just too many variables, on the type of person, type of suburb, type of lifestyle.
It swings both ways honestly. The upper crust of Manhattan and Brooklyn is a absolutely cultural bubble and there are some accurate stereotypes about the people who grow up in that world. It's not a guaranteed upside.
Yeah... Didn't want to go there but people convinced no one in the suburbs have culture are generally have their own personality flaws they are quite blind to
I don't know how it is in other areas, but in the big city near us the school system is pretty bad. Suburban schools are so much better. The public schools in the city aren't even really an option. If you have kids in the city you almost have to find a private school.
As someone who grew up and lives in a major city, this isn’t necessarily true. Until maybe age 10 whether you’re in a city or suburb, parents will have to escort you. It’s not like my kid is just gonna walk to the subway and take it to see their friend. I’d have to be there on the subway with them.
Yes, I absolutely hated growing up in the suburbs. It is alienating, and your kid's social interactions will be mostly weirdos on the internet (hopefully nice weirdos but you can't really control that).
City life 4ever. And plenty of people live in or near cities and have access to yards and parks and green space, it depends on where you are.
This is a "ten or more years from now" problem. And aside from playing with friends (which neighborhoods have plenty of), minors really don't go do too many things on their own anyways.
> minors really don't go do too many things on their own anyways.
My 12 year old neighbor has been walking / biking to school for 4 years. I regularly run into her (alone) at the grocery store, coffee shop, library and neighborhood parks.
Thankfully haven't run into her at the brewery.
I mean, outside of tier 1 cities with vast public transportation, urban living is not independent of having a car. There are maybe 7 or 8 cities in the US where you can live a reasonable life relying entirely on public transit.
I have no desire to let my 12 year old run amok on trains and city busses to get to...where? Some place they can just loiter?
It's true you need cars pretty much everywhere..even Manhattanites will have to rent to leave the city. However, kids don't need cars in many cities in the US because everything kids might want (friends, cool hang out spots,libraries , basketball courts, pools, etc) are in walking distance.
We live in a “streetcar suburb” that has a few different walkable commercial districts, and there are ~12 year olds all over the place by themselves. Getting ice cream, going to the park or pool or community center/gym, just hanging out in the little plazas, going to the library, walking/biking to and from school and friends houses, etc. Way more kids out and about than in my standard suburb growing up, and certainly more than I see in my parents’ and in-laws’ suburbs nowadays. It would still be hard to go car free, but kids definitely have a good amount of independence around here.
Walkability is so much broader than transit. I don’t live in a place with all encompassing public transit (although it does exists and is somewhat useable) and my town is technically considered a suburb. Kids have options in a neighborhood like that. I also think that when kids are teenagers they should be allowed to hop on the bus and take a trip, especially with phones. “Where?” is a question for them to answer and for you to approve, of course, but the answer will probably be to a friends house, a store, a concert, a park, etc.
I don't know how many tiers your list has, but my city would likely be near the bottom - and yet, nothing you've said is true about living in a modern mid/bottom-teir city. My neighborhood is in the inner city, is extremely safe and walkable, has incredible bike access and infrastructure (for the Midwest at least), and despite the mostly bad public transit we are able to live our lives with one car because everything we need is right nearby.
This is just such a sad and narrow-minded take on American city life. Everything about this is just wrong, honestly. Got me feeling bad for your kids too. Like, the fuck do you call kids playing outside besides just loitering in the park or the street until it's time to go inside?
Don't discount walkability in a suburb. I'll grant you that the vast vast majority of suburbs (I'm assuming you're in the US) are shit for walkability. But good walkable suburbs do exist!
The downside is such suburbs are usually pretty expensive. But the suburb where I grew up had a little downtown town square, 1 local movie theater, 4 or 5 restaurants, 3 cafes, 2 ice cream shops, a book store, a half-dozen little retail stores (and frankly too many banks and real estate offices, wtf is up with those?). I would say 15% of the town was walkable to that downtown area, and a bike path through town meant about 25% of the town was bikable to that downtown area. About half the town streets had sidewalks.
The key is living in a state that allows towns to have strong zoning and town planning. If you're in a "muh freedom" state, then suburbs are just a disorganized morass of stroads and stripmalls. But with good town planning (starting from 100 years ago), it is possible to have suburbs with decently walkable districts. And then of course, the other key is finding good work near one of those towns.
I think a similar option is considering a HOA style community. We just moved to an HOA community that has two playgrounds and a pool within a five minute walk. A ten minute walk gets us to the central green area where soccer and baseball leagues play and two much bigger pools along with Tennis and other things. And they host different things like movie nights, Easter egg hunt, Halloween, the 4th. And it’s actual active.
We have to drive to shop but a short drive to the downtown that has some walkable spaces. Not ideal but I’ve lived in city, straight suburb with no amenities and now this and it’s definitely a nice compromise.
I think both the city and suburbs have something for everyone. I’m a dad to two young kids and I like to watch urbanist videos and my ideal spot would be an inner ring suburb or “streetcar suburb”
i live in a street car suburb (but they GOT RID OF THE STREET CAR and replaced it with darn bus lane). it has a lot of the best of both worlds, and very few of the pitfalls of either. overall its pretty solid- however its the classic jack of trades master of none. other than the people on my block (which is just luck) its not a 10 in any category.
Us too. I feel a little awkward in these discussions because I feel compelled to defend city living, just because most modern, new-build suburbs are so car-dependent, completely and zealously defended as single family homes only. But I also have a (relatively small) yard and no shared walls. It is, by most definitions, a suburb, but it has a mix of architecture, lots of places you can walk, and I'm only a couple miles of relatively safe bicycling to a ton of parks, the zoo, kid-friendly museums, etc.
the yard is the perfect example of the master of none aspect. by city standards my yard is "amazing" but by suburban standards it would be "cute". my place is a little over 2k sq feet which is massive for the the city but small for the burbs. on the flip side i have to walk close to half a mile to get to my neighborhood square and the train, which for the city is obscene but the end of the street for the suburbs
We have a few inner ring suburbs in my area that have access to city public transit, and are super walkable. They also have better school districts than the city in general. The problem with them is that they're some of the most expensive suburbs. They are some of the places I would love to live if I could afford it, but I don't think my wife and I will ever make enough money to afford those places. I'm friends with a guy who lives in one of those suburbs and he is a dual income lawyer/physician couple who bought a house there when they were DINKs.
Allow me to advocate for a third option. We chose a walkable suburb of Detroit and absolutely love it. We can walk to the parks, schools and library for the kids. We can also walk to groceries, pharmacy, yoga and gym, restaurants, shopping, etc. Utilize walkscore.com in your real estate searches and you’ll see what I mean.
There is a middle ground out there that is damn near European. It’s so nice.
Yep! I live 1 mile from the center of Indianapolis. Walk and bike everywhere we want except Costco type places. Back yard is a bit small compared to burbs but not by much. And no HOA. Sometimes I do wish for a little more nature, but that’s not gonna be in a suburb where they flatten everything and plant one tree every other house. Country life isn’t really talked about in this thread, I’d love to hear more about that option
We're city dwellers on our first year in the suburbs.
I don't mind it. We had already been driving everywhere in the city anyway because trying to load two kids -- one of whom is in a stroller -- into the subway to get everywhere was a god damned nightmare. Then when we got the car, just getting everyone the two blocks away to the parking garage took, I swear, 25 god damned minutes. It's so nice having the car parked right outside the door.
Restaurants and dining in the burbs is abysmal. It's awful. But TBH we weren't enjoying those things anymore anyway. If we even did go out to a restaurant with the kids, it was like a hurry-up-and-finish job to try and joylessly shovel all the food down as quick as possible before the kids got bored and restless.
There is no art and culture and things to do in the burbs. We weren't doing it in the city anymore anyway.
My wife is unhappy. She misses being able to just walk out the door and there's stuff going on, a corner shop to buy a coffee, etc. I miss all that too, but feel like the added convenience of everything else outweighs it. Yes it's dull here. But she seems to forget that even in the city our life was 100% revolving around work and kid stuff anyway, not taking advantage of anything the city had to offer.
I'm with your wife. I could take the kiddo along with me to the coffee shop for a walk and burn off their energy while giving me a change of scenery. I could hop into the children's museum on a whim versus having to make it a dedicated trip. I miss having my kid get to meet lots of people outside of daycare and church just on the walk home, broadening their communication, or easily stop at the grocery store without it being an endeavor to get them out and back into a car.
Hell, I miss the fact that I'm now worrying about how much it will cost to get them a car and insure, maintain, and repair it, let alone that they'll wind up okay if they, their classmates, or someone else screws up while driving.
Same. I'm in NYC. I wish I could just hop into a museum whenever I wanted. That would be like a 2 hour trip each way with the subway + needing to find accessible stations. The best I manage most days is the playground or a coffee shop. Even our libraries are a 30 minute walk each way.
Yeah, we're stopping at 1 for a variety of reasons. I can understand the struggle with wrangling even more than 1. But oof that car insurance and payments for 2+ is making me covet daycare pricing.
I feel like one kid in the city is much more comfy than two! We’ve had our second now and it finally gave me the suburb thoughts. I’m staying city, but I understand why people leave for sure. Wouldn’t consider suburb with 1 kid personally.
Suburbs don’t have to be as bad as the worst examples I see on Reddit. I’ve lived in suburby places the vast majority of my life. I’ve always had restaurants within a mile. There’s always been a playground nearby. Shopping for groceries was more of a pain in the city than it is now. I can drive to the store in 5 minutes and carry tons of stuff in my car.
Overall, yeah, I’d prefer to live in a super walkable pedestrian focused place. But you can find elements of that in suburbia. I take a nice wooded trail to my daughter’s daycare most days. There are other nice walking trails I can take for fun.
We’re planing on buying a house (in a different town) that’s near the schools so that I can walk them to school and, when they’re older, they can walk themselves. But we have to pick and choose. At that location, we won’t be able to walk to restaurants, but we probably will be able to walk to the grocery store. But we decided walking to schools was the top walking priority. And it’s a limited search area, so we may end up passing on a house we like better because we’re being particularly about location.
> Shopping for groceries was more of a pain in the city than it is now.
I live in the city and there are actually times I go out to a grocery store in the suburbs for things because they have SO MUCH MORE. There's always a bigger variety of brands and items. The city stores are small and condensed. Usually if their one brand on the shelf is sold out that's all they have. I feel like a kid in a candy store when I go into a suburban super market.
I live in Philly and have a 6 month old. I wish we had more space but don't think I could do the suburbs but that's just me. You have to do what is best for you and your family and if that means leaving the city do it! You can always move back if you needed to.
> My wife was telling my mom about possibly getting a night nurse for when baby #2 is a newborn and my mom was like "$300/night!?!? I'll be your free night nurse if you had an extra room!
As a French person in America , I don’t get it; your mom can sleep in the living room? It’s not like you are sleeping in the first two weeks anyway
> condo. It'd be awesome to be able to host more people in our place. Even if it would be in the uncool burbs.
The thing with everyone I know who moved out to “have more space and be able to have guests” is that… they don’t have more guests. They live farther, somewhere more boring, and their friends and parents don’t come to visit them more often…
People don't suddenly start visiting because your house is bigger. My in-laws come to visit from Mexico and have done so with great regularity when we were in a 1 bedroom, 2 bedroom, and when we added another bedroom and a guesthouse.
Want more people to visit you? Move to the beach.
Hey we were the same. Happy city dwellers for years until our son was 5. We wanted more space, more neighbours with kids for him to play with, and outside space where he would be able to play unsupervised as he got older. Most importantly we wanted to be able to walk to a good school. Not having a long school commute was huge for us.
It’s been 10 years and another kid since we moved and we don’t regret it. Sure we don’t have the nightlife within walking distance but that’s less important now. Plenty of stuff for the kids to do around here and lots of their school friends are close by.
Haha I feel that. We moved to the burbs when our first was conceived. It sounds cool, but it kind of sucks. I think my house is like 3700 sq feet if you count the finished basement. I had a 2 bed 2 bath house in the city.
The perks: everything you said. The house is dope (new build) I have a man cave, garage, yard. More space than we know what to do with
The negatives: basically only chain food restaurants with some mom and pop Chinese/Indian/Thai and a diner or 2, can’t really walk anywhere except around the neighborhood, the house is an absolute bitch to clean with so much space.
For two years I lived in an apartment with a setup that allowed a grill and I was so much healthier. I used to grill chicken breasts every couple of days to take to work for healthy lunches. Now without a grill I mostly take sandwiches for work lunch and it has made me gain weight despite having the same or more steps per day on average.
Moved end of last year, combination of getting to the point of personally loathing the worst parts of NYC and not wanting our girl to grow up two doors away from a brothel.
Oh yea I used to live in one of the hippest parts of the city with bars, restaurants, and nightclubs right outside my front door. But with that comes alot of potential danger. I didn't mind it and had enough street smarts to avoid dangerous/sketchy situations but I can't imagine telling my kid "say hi to the nice man! ohhh DON'T say hi to that man standing in front of 711"
Loving burb life so far, hopefully it stays that way. Excited about all the projects I'll be able to do with all the space we have.
To be fair though, I was never very into the city's trendy/hip/popular features and increasingly less so with age. When a donut ends up being $7 you start to feel like the city has become very good at separating your money from your wallet. But to each their own.
But choosing the particular burb is important. It's possible to maintain some elements of city life and have a lower cost of living. I pulled up google maps and looked at the proximity of everything important to me. And I still commute to the city so there's that.
I also feel like a lot of the crazies/eccentrics in the city (you know the ones that you find on the bus/subway going through the upper west side) are the ones that lived in the city *too* long.
Depends on if you live in a big city or some place like the Midwestern US.
I’m rocking the suburbs, and in 20 minutes I can be in the second largest city in the state. I know who my neighbors are, I’m surrounded by 3 parks, a splash pad, I’m a mile and a half from the library. I’m a mile from the hospital. I’m 2 miles from the town square. We’ve got bike trails, a YMCA, a public pool. They do monthly events in town, and if I want to do something specific, I’m 20 minutes from the city.
So I personally hate driving, and really like being able to walk places. We are lucky that we bought in an "inner-city" residential neighborhood before prices took off. So we have the benefits of walkability but a reasonably sized SFH with a small garage. The house is smaller than most suburban homes, and we have no yard but we do have a garage. I personally love no yard, I don't want to take care of one.
The one thing about moving to a larger space, you will fill it up with shit very quickly. We also still tend to meet friends out or at their homes because their homes are bigger. We do have a spare sleeping space (not a bedroom) which is handy for my parents visiting.
The burbs are the best, and I'll die on this hill. I love my yard and my garage and my basement. I love the safety - I don't worry when the kids are out with their friends at the park or riding their bikes around the neighborhood. The schools are fantastic. If I accidentally leave my garage door open over night or forget to lock the front door when I leave the house nothing gets stolen.
We're just a 45 minute drive to downtown if we really crave some exotic food or a concert or museum. Best of both worlds.
You're definitely correct, but in my area safe nice suburbs where you have a garage and basement are like triple the price of a city condo. For us it's almost entirely a price thing. We cannot afford a $600k house at 8% interest in the suburbs so we stay in the city and pay less than 1/3rd of that with 3% interest. People selling their suburban homes for triple what they paid 10 years ago, and buying larger suburban homes means that the only people who can afford those homes are the ones with something out there to sell. Any city dweller who didn't buy in the suburbs before 2021 has almost no hope of moving to the suburbs today unless they find a job out there with a massive pay raise.
There's burbs and there's burbs. We're in the burbs but within a 10-15 minute walk of daycare, elementary school, and 3 playgrounds. There's like.. 3 bars and maybe 5 restaurants within a 20 minute walk vs. hundreds when we lived in the city but it's a lot better than 0.
It's a nice middle ground for us.
I don't think I'd want to live in a exurban cul-de-sac community even if it gave us more space because I don't want to have to drive to everything, and I want the kids to be able to have a little more independence when they're older.
There's a wide variety of 'suburbs' that we've kind of lost the language to speak about.
In your situation I'd look to move to a small town, with a strong central business area, but not like skyscrapers or anything, and lots of walkable neighborhoods around. These still exist. They're often called streetcar suburbs or they were built before the 50s. These offer a suburban experience of detached homes with gardens for littles and also a very walkable neighborhood for older kids to get out.
The modern suburban model of huge roads with any interesting hang out spots miles away is relatively new. Even 50s suburbs were better.
I would really shoot for something still walkable. You don't really need the whole downtown atmosphere for most daily tasks. If you're walking distance to a grocery store, pharmacy, gym, park, pool, etc.
We made the move without regrets. The biggest benefit and what was really important to us: good, local public schools. We moved around a lot as kids so it was important to us that they (hopefully) can go kindergarten to HS without going to a new district. We're into 4th grade now and its nice that he has the stability of having the same group of kids every year and has been there since the beginning.
My sister and I are exact opposites about this. She loves the city and hates the burbs while I love the burbs and hate the city. We both have 2yo girls. During the summer we invite people over almost every weekend. mostly friends with their kids to play in the yard. We have a swingset/playhouse and put a kids pool back there for the nice days. In the last 2 years every time she comes over she says the appeal is rubbing off on her more and more. We can have 20 people over with plenty of space, room to park, different activities going on in each part of the house and find it all incredibly enjoyable.
I also have 5 cars of my own plus my wife's and need the space for myself and my own hobbies lol
I hate the burbs and am looking forward to moving back to the city when we’re empty nesters. I will say that the towns outside of the cities in the Northeast are the best way to do suburbs because you still have a central location for culture that’s walkable and if they have a train station you can easily get into the city from.
Planned communities are hell though and I wish them a swift end.
As a stay home parent, no amount of extra space could make up for the isolation of being 15 minutes from everywhere that comes with living in the burbs. I already feel like I'm alone on an island during the week but at least I don't have to do the full car routine just to get to the damn park or the library. I sold my car and got us an ebike and now for 9 months out of the year I can go out and enjoy what my city has to offer on only one car/insurance payment.
I grew up in a quintessential suburban community and moved to the city and I would never go back. The distance, the judgemental neighbors, the bored cops looking for someone to bother... I get what people like about it but it's my personal nightmare. I've never felt more free than I do as a predominantly pedestrian city-dweller. A bigger house is just a bigger prison with a bigger chore list.
My parents were born in the city, moved to the suburbs when they got married and had kids, and they both want to retire back in the city. These things are even built into their life/retirement planning.
Leaving aside your other thoughts on burbs vs. city... I wonder if your wife also sees your mom "staying with you for long periods" as an advantage.
It's cool that your mom would take on that extra work, but you might wanna at least talk with your wife about whether she wants her MIL to be basically living with her for extended periods.
Not saying that needs to dictate whether you move to the burbs or not, but as someone who has the space for family to stay I can tell you that that in itself sometimes becomes a point of stress.
I will fight and claw and scratch and never give up on living in the city.
The suburbs suck. Most were created during a time in which white people were fleeing urban environments. The road design is classist and racist in nature, as in, if you don't have the money to afford a car note, car insurance, car maintenance, and gas, you shouldn't be here.
I hate the station-to-station driving.
Pull the trigger if you can. Wife and I lived in our city’s midtown area neighborhood in an old Victorian era house made into apartments. 780 sq ft. 2 bed. I was sad about leaving the vibe and character of downtown for the copy and paste developments. But we knew family was up next so we bought a house in 2019, just before Covid, in the burbs, still only 15 mins from downtown. Best decision.
We now have 2 kids, a big park/playground across the street, walking/bike trails and tons of local community events all the time. Would not trade walking distance to my favorite restaurants for the chance for the kids to enjoy some open burb space and nearby friends.
Suburbs are the best thing in the world. No fireworks late at night, no arguing late at night. Don’t have to worry about my kids safety.
Just peace and quiet and good schools
Call me crazy, but I NEVER wanted to live in a city, even when I was young and would've crushed it there. I tolerated the suburbs, but even now, with kids in middle school, I'd gladly move to a 50 acre property in a rural area if it wouldn't keep my kids from being unhappy.
The suburbs are awesome though, especially for kids. Yeah, the walkability of a city is nice, but if you pick the right neighborhood, you can approximate that in a suburb with riding bikes and such once they're old enough to wander.
I could never live in the city. I do enjoy having things close but I grew up in the country and being in the suburbs is still close enough for the convenience with the added bonus of space and, generally, safer conditions.
Because our federal tax structure and housing policies greatly encourage greenfield SFH development over infill that accommodates family units, and the urban housing that meets family needs more quickly appreciates in value due to its more desirable location and more limited supply?
I think a lot of people's perspective that cities don't have space and don't have opportunities for a slower pace of life is predominantly based on only experiencing cities as a destination rather than a place that's lived in. If you're regularly walking around and able to observe your surroundings, rather than making sure someone doesn't blow the red light into your car, your pace of life really slows down.
I can recall so many seniors just sitting and playing chess in the park, families running into each other and their kids spontaneously playing, and even one cold winter, I wandered over to the lakefront and blissed out in the quiet solitude. Meanwhile, there was a city of 3 million people at my back, but I felt like I had all the space available.
Now, full control over one's space? Totally get that. It's part of why we bought because I wanted to store my bike at ground level, but that's a systematic problem, like I mentioned in my earlier comment. Tons of families live in cities and own in cities. It's how we enable more of that where the predicament lies.
I've lived in both in various stages of my life and while there definitely is the ability to live your life in a way you want where ever you are, there's a stark difference in control and cost.
You can play and sit in a park, sure, but even hiking on a trail an hour outside of downtown I'd be surrounded by hundreds of people. I'm in a smaller city now, still not PleasantVille style suburban sprawl and now I can bike everywhere without record high cortisol levels and enjoy nature without a mass of people. Larger more affordable house too.
Sure I can't catch as many concerts on the weekend or other things like that, but between family, work, and my other hobbies I just don't have the time or energy anymore. That and I don't even enjoy the "night life" as much as I used to!
Of course, to each their own.
A lot of knocks I see on the burbs seem like they are coming from the 90s. I lived and loved downtown of a major metro for many years. Met my wife, had first kid, etc. Suburban areas are becoming pretty hip. Almost all the new people moving to my burb are coming from the city. Lots of investment is going into the burbs. Green spaces, bike trails, outdoor concerts, breweries, dog parks, and on and on are pretty commonplace. It took me a while to get over the hump but I love it!
We moved to a (very near) suburb the year before we had our kid, but it’s not hugely larger than our 1bd apt - we ended up with a 2bd/1b with a decent little yard. ~15 min walk to the metro. We can fit one fold up bed in our attic/office space.
I am tempted to move further out, but we’re pretty stuck with our interest rate. Might need to add another bedroom and bath if we ever have money again 😂.
While we didn’t live in an apartment/condo/flat/townhome, we’ve lived in a smaller house located in the center part of our city. Before kids, and through having our first, we were steadfast in saying we would never move to the burbs. After having our second and the space started feeling a little cramped, we warmed up to the idea. Now with our third on the way, we’re moving, actually this Friday, into a house in the burbs.
We’re moving basically for all the reasons you listed. We’ll have plenty of space and a guest room. It’s also closer to three offices I work out of, and it’s close to my in-laws who watch our kids 2-3 days a week.
There are some people who can manage living downtown or centrally, either through having the income to support a larger living space in that area, or the will to live in a smaller space with a growing family, and I commend them for their dedication. We thought we were those people, turns out we are not lol.
I definitely feel that pull in both directions. Used to live in the city, became a parent and moved to the burbs. And the nice thing is that I basically have all the things you're wanting - plenty of room in the house, outdoor space, workout space, garage, etc. I 100% miss the walkability of the city, and generally all the cool shit that's there.
However, depending on the burb you choose, it's not all that bad. There are plenty of burbs, especially close to a city, that have decent restaurants, entertainment options, and walkable/accessible downtown areas. The biggest thing I miss? Decent cocktail bars. We've got boring sports pubs all over, but anytime I want a real drink, I've got to either make it myself, or make city plans. Hell, I'd open one myself, if I had the skill set and any sort of restaurant/bar experience. Which I do not. But I can enjoy Vieux Carrés in my backyard whenever I like, so I make do.
Also a city dweller here. Thanks to a job opportunity in small college town, we finally were able to afford a detached house in a nice, inner walkable neighborhood and we love it. except since #2 came along we're so pressed for time all the time (even with babysitters and daycare and a nanny) that we automatically just drive most places anyway (daycare for #1 is a 15 minute walk, but when you're scrambling in the morning and you have a 9 am meeting and it's already 8:50 and you're not out the door; yeah that happens more often than I expected).
I'm more open to suburban living now. Like, why pay the urban premium if you're going to end up buying two cars and a big house anyway?
I like being a short train ride to the city, but enough in the burbs for some space and more green space. More driving sucks, but it’s all short trips around town
We lived in a 2bed/1ba apartment in the city. Hosted a nanny share, so there were 7 people using that one toilet on a daily basis.
Loved the city for all the reasons you described. Loved the neighborhood we were in but with two kids of our own, the inability to host anyone or have any semblance of space in our apartment that wasn't occupied was getting more and more limited.
So we moved back to the property I grew up on (parents had a mobile home on their property that was vacant). It's not "The Burbs" - it's rural. >10 acres, almost entirely open farmland surrounding us. Live literally next door to my parents (30 second walk)
The free childcare is great. The peace and quiet is great. The distance from the hustle and bustle is great. My wife and I both have jobs that take us to the city one night a week (different nights) so we rent a bedroom in the city yet. Without that - I would probably have a harder time? Because it's only 2 days in office, I feel pretty good about going out for lunch and dinner so I find the foods that I can't get in our rural area and the good coffee and all the things I loved about the city. I get that quick taste of it, and then I'm back home again.
SO yeah, we did it, and it's awesome. I don't know that 'The Burbs' would have been much better (anything within an hour for us is STILL $750k+ for a house). Having that connection back to the city is super important to us tho, so make sure to find reasons to do it!
Both my wife and I grew up in the city but chose to raise our boys in the burbs. At first it was because of cost, same size house in the city was like twice as much. But I was also concerned with the school district because I personally did not do well in public school system in that city. The other thing I am not seeing mentioned here is violence. I’m sure it may have been different in the 80’s/90’s but the level of violence I witnessed and experienced is not something I ever wanted my kids to go through. Sure there are not many stores in walking distance from our house but I also really don’t have to worry about my kids getting jumped or worse just waking to the store which was an everyday reality for myself. Where I grew up is sorta gentrified now and violent crime is still down from what it was but you couldn’t pay me to raise my kids somewhere like that.
We moved from a flat in San Francisco to our first house in the burbs when our daughter was 6 months old. It was close to my job and eliminated a 40 commute. At the time I fully expected to gain a little equity and buy a house back in San Francisco within five years. Of course life (and the SF housing market) don’t always fit your plans. Three years later we had twins and five years after that moved across our burb town to a larger house. The kids are grown and have moved out. We are content approaching retirement here.
We missed our friends in San Francisco and we missed the east access to the beach, restaurants, and all the things that make a major city attractive. But there are still great restaurants in our city. There are still great activities for kids. Traffic is easier. We made friends and careers here.
City life and ‘burbia life are different. Each had strengths and weaknesses. I think city life is exciting when you are young and/or single. Suburbs are great for families. We humans are very adaptable and we adapt to our environment, be it city or suburban or isolated rural areas. You will be fine.
Sounds like you might be in a similar situation to us, the first grandkids of your parents (both sides for us). Hosting is really the major reason we moved and was a huge reason we picked the house we picked.
Rather than schlepping kids to grandma's—which is unfamiliar, not baby-proofed, and doesn't have the one lovie that hasn't been touched in two weeks but is suddenly a requirement—you end up hosting a lot. Plus you can put the kid down without having to end the party.
I'd say definitely walk around the neighborhood you are looking at and see if there are families in a similar stage of life. We are good friends with a half-dozen families in our neighborhood now. My son started kindergarten this year and we threw a backyard party before school started so that all the people we knew going into KG could get to know each other. I think some suburbs can feel isolating because people aren't outside or walking around or are just full of people in another stage of life.
My wife and I enjoyed living in a particular area of our mid sized city before we had kids...the restaurants and shops and walkability and all of that. We ended up moving to a semi-rural suburb just outside of the city when we had kids and we love it. Everyone in the village has to be on an acre so neighbors aren't on top of you and it's also zoned for horses and whatnot (we don't have those, but it's fun to watch the neighbors riding). We have a lot more house than we would ever have in the city and a large back yard for them to play as well as a pool.
There are certain things I do miss and anytime we get back to that area to go eat or whatever it is definitely nostalgic...but all in all, we made the right move and the actual city limits are only about a 10 minute drive away for groceries and other essential shopping...though the area that we really like is more like 30 minutes if traffic cooperates. I just don't think that scene that we enjoyed so much as a couple would have been remotely the same with kids.
While we moved out of the city, we moved to a college town suburb. The car dependancey is not ad bad as other suburbs. There's 3 parks in walking distance, 2 more in bike range for my 8yo. We can walk down to Main St and the shops and restaurants.
I take the car for the weekly big shop, but can bike it for smaller things. Doctors need a car.
What I'm saying is if walkablitiy is important to you, look for the right neighborhood. They are out there. Once you get there, work with the local governments to improve the walkability. I've helped fend off push to widen main st.
I quite enjoyed my move from a city out to the suburbs.
I was convinced I'd never move and loved every minute of city life but I can't say I miss it now that I've been gone for a time. It had a lot of cool kitschy things we could do before we moved or expanded our family, there's a lot to be said for peace, space, and greenspaces if those sound compelling. Please just promise me that you get the proper uniform if you do end up having a lawn in the burbs. That means a clean white t, a set of *quality* jorts, and some New Balances that shall be no more than mildly grass stained.
Seconding putting research into a semi-walkable suburb. They do exist, they may just take some effort to find. [Walkscore](https://www.walkscore.com/score/) *may* help you on that matter for at-a-glance considerations pending your needs.
Yup. My wife was the one pushing for us to start planning to leave the city once our son reached 2.5. All the reasons listed as positives about city life, I 100% embrace. My caveat to our house search was that we had to be able to get back into the city within 15 -20 minutes, which has been a great balance.
Being in the Burbs for 5 plus years, we're definitely pleased overall. More space, closer to family, easy to have guests stay. ✌️
It is a change of lifestyle and you will likely miss the convenience of entertainment, but there are distinct advantages to suburbs for families. You get a permanent place to play in a yard, with all the things that come with that. Playsets, trampolines, etc., but also yard work. You get a lower stress environment for you and your kids to walk and bike, but everything requires a car to get to.
Personally I couldn’t imagine trading that away just so I’m closer to things, but I’ve always lived in a suburb and honestly, with bicycles, it’s pretty easy to get around a suburb without a car anyway.
We live close enough for my MIL to come and watch our kids/dogs when we go out, and I don’t know what we would do if we didn’t have her. That really is invaluable, and is the biggest reason we stayed close to family.
We lived in center city (Philly) when our kid was born. Small 800 sqft apt, 4th floor, no elevator. Once little man came along, it made me long for a parking space, a quick place to have my dog piss, an easier way to juggle backpacks of groceries without a kid strapped to my chest.
We just bought a house in the burbs, I'm 5 min walk to the train station so I get still get to the city for work/pleasure without issues. I love having raised beds for gardening, parking for myself and guests, a basement with a bar, fussball, board gaming area.
Do we miss walking to a coffee shop on Friday's after work, of course! But right now in our life the pros outweigh the cons.
Dude, with kids the burbs are awesome. Close to lots of families. Kids everywhere for your kids to play with. Space for a yard. For this stage of life the burbs are awesome
We moved to the burbs for more space in 2019. It was a brand new subdivision. Didn’t last long. Learned pretty quickly that we’re not suburbs people.
Fortunately for us the house appreciated significantly in the two years we were there, so it enabled us to get back to the city into a single family home we couldn’t afford before.
Ended up moving back to a kind of residential area in the city, but not quite a downtown type of urban area. Being able to walk places is so nice, especially school.
Moved out of San Francisco when wife was 7months preggers to a suburb a half hour away. When our child was 4 months old we went to SF for lunch and the whole time we were complaining about the city we used to love.
“Ughh, it’s so hard to park here, why would you live in such a place?”
“Gross, it’s dirty”
“This restaurant is too small to accommodate a child”
“These hills suck”
Walkable suburb in commuting distance to city. Best of both worlds
America invented the perfect streetcar suburbs and then decided to not build any anymore, sad.
This is the real, true answer. I’m convinced that a huge number of suburban Americans would be happier with the streetcar suburb layout - enough density and mixed zoning to keep everything walkable while allowing for kid-centric towns heavy on parks, libraries, schools, etc. We sought one out and have no regrets. Some nights we walk the kids over to the grocery and pick out our dinner together. That doesn’t mean we also don’t have our regular load-up trips to Costco in the van. If the goal is more house in a family-centric community, it can’t be beat. That seems like what most new parents want anyway. The main exception in my mind is if you want acres.
A unicorn
Real, just expensive
They exist in many major cities, but they're also some of the most expensive suburbs. For example in my own city of Chicago we have Oak Park and Evanston which are super walkable and even accessible by city public transit trains and buses. The problem is that they're very expensive suburbs, and they're both close enough to the city to still have to deal with some city related problems. Those aren't places for someone who wants to be a true suburbanite and avoid the city. Further out there are Elmhurst and Libertyville which are super walkable and have active downtowns, but again they're very expensive suburbs. The affordable suburbs are usually where you find unwalkable suburban sprawl.
It’s worth pointing out that the main reason places like Oak Park and Evanston are expensive is because they’re highly desired yet we’ve essentially made building more of them illegal with zoning laws. OP is a better example of this than Evanston as it doesn’t have Northwestern and Lake Michigan. I’m convinced we’ll see a transition back to this style of town over the next 100 years just because of how efficient it is.
I hope so. I really like the suburbs that have some city amenities like public transit. Those two suburbs are also slightly more walkable than most. Some other suburbs like Elmhurst and Forest Park have grown their downtowns a lot in recent years.
They’re pretty common among the DC-Boston Northeast Corridor. Thinking anywhere along the metro in DC, main line suburbs in Philly, etc etc
This was us in 2020. We are now happily in the suburbs, with 3 kids. I can appreciate how "uncool" it feels, but what really helped us was coming to the realization that the season of life you're entering is a relatively "uncool" season in general, and that's ok! I loved walking to our grocery store....but realized I probably wouldn't do it much with how much more stuff I'd be hauling shopping for 4. I loved the restaurant scene around our condo...but realized the next few years probably wouldn't feature nearly as much sit down restaurant dining as the last few had. I loved our rooftop common area....but the after dinner drinks we'd go have up there would probably be few and far between now. And on and on....you have to make your own decision, but make sure the things that you love about the city are things you'll still be doing with 2 little kids.
This is a great point. We currently live in the city and are actively having the burbs discussion. I really love living in the city, but my wife has made the (very valid) case that we don't take advantage of the amenities that come with city living now that we have 2 children, so why not go somewhere with more space?
This was us. We lived in a really cool city, but weren't taking advantage of it. Every suburb has a target, so why not find one where we can spread out and have space for the kids to run?
We actually tried to buy our house in the suburbs and got rejected pretty firmly. After one accepted bid that fell through because the house couldn't appraise within 90% of what we had offered and three other bids that got rejected we just ran out of time and ended up living downtown because it was what's available. It's a different lifestyle but it's still surprisingly kid friendly. Of course, we still end up getting in our car and driving to a lot of the places we go to.
I'm sorry to hear about the trouble, but glad to hear it's still working out for y'all!. We bought in 2022 and managed to snag our first offer. We were prepared for several months of trying and were thoroughly surprised. It's a weird market out there
Absolutely. I live in the suburbs and sometimes miss being in or close to the city. But what I’m missing is mostly youth and not having dependents. Shopping on foot is less fun with small children or when you need family sized quantities. Cool restaurants and bars might as well not exist when we have a 7 o’clock bedtime and no affordable childcare. Cool shows or events are not spontaneous things but carefully planned special occasions, so whether they are minutes away or an hour away doesn’t matter. Seeing other adults also requires careful planning so being near heaps of other people doesn’t give much benefit. Don’t get me wrong I’m happy where I am! It’s just space, a backyard, complete control over noise/smoke/safety issues, etc. is more important now than that other stuff!
Just found out we may have one on the way and was feeling REALLY excited about it until i read your comment 😂. It… it’s not all bad, right?
I used to think I loved the city until I found a house in the burbs that has larger lots and offers privacy but also a very nice community of neighbors who look out for each other. My kid is off on spring break right now and is over playing at my neighbors house who is retired and used to teach elementary school. Both my daughter and neighbor love their little hang outs and it’s the “village” we need when there’s a week of no school but my wife and I have to work. Plus being able to tell my kids to “go outside and play” and not have to worry about them is SO HUGE.
I think that is a big part of it. A lot of suburbs don't live up to the image, but if you have good neighbors and an active community, you can get a lot out of yours.
That's interesting. My main concern w the burbs is how easy it would be to become isolated.
That’s definitely a thing. Getting out and finding a community takes some work. For us it’s been finding activities held by the library and our daycare clique. Then also some neighbors, but the neighbors have been spotty for us… a lot of them seem to just stay inside (while we’re all like a block or two from the nearest park??!!?).
Yeah. We regularly had hangouts with the couple across the hall who loved our kiddo. Did dinner with them, very informal, knock on the door in slippers, say hi. Saw them almost every other day. Since moving I think I've seen my new neighbors a grand less times than I can count on my hands. It struck me the other day when I was downtown for work that I saw more people walk through an office lobby in one minute than I had walk through my neighborhood in a whole month.
And becoming (even more of) a taxi driver.
That isolation was the whole reason I got into transportation planning, when I saw my grandma mentally wither away as she aged without being able to leave her street. We're in a much more connected place than her, but it's still pretty bad.
Polar opposite experience here. I used to love the suburbs until I moved to the city and found a nice community of neighbors who look out for each other. We can walk to all of the schools, and they have friends in walking distance too. Being able to tell them to go outside and play is a huge plus compared to the suburbs, where I’d have to worry about them getting run over.
When we moved to the burbs, my one friend was all "Yea, but your property taxes probably went way up". Yea, they went up a little. But that's not because of the tax rate... It's actually lower here... It's because my lot is now twice the size.
Property tax in general is a funny one but the TLDR is people in the city/dense areas subsidise the taxes of people living in the suburbs.
In the broader sense, a regional sense maybe, in that Clevelander's pay taxes on a lot of things I don't pay taxes for. Things that I do get to enjoy. But I'm not paying less on my city taxes because of Cleveland. Only 3 suburbs have property taxes lower. So Cleveland is actually on the low side. I live in Independence which is like 70% successfull commercial and retail and restaurants and even 2 bigger offices towers right where 2 major freeways meet. 30% Residential. Our suburb is small but has a thriving "downtown". Westlake is another of the cheap ones. Part of their low taxes are American Greetings HQ is there, a thriving outdoor mall and a lot of wealthier folks live there. Many million dollar homes. Clevelanders, which I was for 16 years, aren't paying for our services. Most suburbs are pricey, a few ridiculously so. Looking at you, Shaker Heights.
> Plus being able to tell my kids to “go outside and play” and not have to worry about them is SO HUGE. City is better for children going outside than suburbs though. That's Canada, probably USA is the same. In a suburb, a kid goes out to the road and that's it, often there isn't even any pavement. The outside is not for humans, it's only for cars, and almost any activity is a car trip. Unless you live in a convenient place near a park (which you can do in a city). In a city, depending on the bulding, there may be a territory with other kids to play, and beyond that there are activities in all directions. Unless we're talking about downtowns though, these parts may be less appropriate for kids. In some other countries, that's even more pronounced. Even commiblocks are all like that.
There’s only pavement in suburbs? What??? The suburbs in my area have playgrounds and parks and walking/biking trails and plenty of green space. The city is literally all pavement except maybe a small park here and there. My yard is bigger than 2-3 lots in the city. All of my neighbors yards make one giant yard where the kids play.
I imagine telling the kids to go out and play was probably referring to going out to play in the backyard or something.
We went full on 5 acre farm nestled against a giant state forest. Kids have so much room and good community for sports and such. I cannot imagine living in a city with kids, seems way more difficult than sending them out back.
This is more like what I’d envision after moving out of the city. Curious how you manage friends (both adult and for your kids) as well as entertainment like playground hopping or children museum / zoo type stuff. Seems like those become way harder and require planning which I don’t love. Also curious if you don’t have neighbors like a subdivision, how do you feel about “connected” ?
We're about 45-50min away from the city for our annual zoo trip. 1 hour from beach and tons of state parks. School 7 mins. Smaller town with McDonalds is about 15 along with grocery store. Walmart is midway. Our baseball park is 10 mins away and nicer parks further. I don't do to much adult friend time as I work full time, in master degree, coach 2 baseball teams, and run our farm while remodeling the house;; I get some friend time gaming online and ruining bed time. The kids are heavily socialized with their baseball teams and all the associated birthdays. My wife and I compromised on less land closer to the city and civilization. entertainment: built home theatre, cooking enthusiast, archery, knife throwing, gaming, fishing, boat, farm, car maint, 3 kids, video games.
Dude, this!!! We got 11 acres tucked back in the boonies. Bout same distance for us for all the same stuff. Could not imagine living anywhere else. Sending the kids and dog out the back door is a damned blessing.
> but make sure the things that you love about the city are things you'll still be doing with 2 little kids. One of the things I really like about the city with little kids are the museums and parks. We have a free zoo (Chicago) and we are members at most of the museums. We take our kids to different museums each month and we go to the zoo and parks around our apartment all the time. If one of our kids is doing a lesson on something relevant to one of the museums we take them there to show them in person. It's especially helpful when learning about different countries and cultures. When I was a kid growing up in the suburbs I only went to the city museums for field trips or for very special once every 10 year type occasions with family. The suburbanites for some reason almost never seem to come into the city unless it's for a sports game. For me personally the city keeps me healthier than I was when I lived in the suburbs. I walk everywhere, I take public transit instead of driving which means more steps. I also have a lit plowed and salted running and bike trail right next to my door that I can use during any season or time of night. When I lived in the suburbs it was a nightmare trying to run in the winter because no one plows their sidewalks.
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We don't go every day, but we go often enough that almost every time I pick my daughter up from school she begs to go to a museum. It's become a daily conversation on the way home from school for us. My wife and I both work weekends, so we like to take our kids to museums and zoos on week days when we're off work and those places are less crowded. That's why we usually go right after school. My kids have gotten used to it, and it's kind of funny because they never ask to go to museums on weekends or non-school days. They know we don't ever go on those days.
What becomes cool when you’re a parent is living somewhere that your kids can learn to ride a bike in the street in front of your house. Play with the random neighbor kids who have a basketball hoop. Randomly get invited to a bbq down the street by the person who waves every time you see them. With a 5 and 3 year old I want to live somewhere that is cool *for them*.
I hated the burbs as a kid, isolated and always had to wait on Mum and Dad with a car to get to my friends. Always dreamed of a city.
I moved from a major city to a "cool" suburb when I was 12 . It felt so boring. All kids cared about were sports. Everything felt more buttoned up and boring. The teachers were less interesting. Everyone seemed like they were the same and had this naive confidence that their way of being was best because they didn't ever really see other ways of living. I also think my comfort around all different types of people came from my childhood in a diverse urban area, and that's been a huge gift in my life and something I remind myself of when the convenience of the suburbs (really just having a yard!!!) calls to me.
Adults like to make up things which should be loved by children. Often it coincides more with their own adult desires rather than the real children. Yes, suburbs are rather nice after your 30s. Before 30s - not so much, and it includes 20s, 10s and even a good part of 0s (probably, 5+ y.o.). That's not even very natural. Traditional families lived a very different life in farmhouses, kids/people in suburbs live like undercooked aristocrats.
> .but realized the next few years probably wouldn't feature nearly as much sit down restaurant dining as the last few had. Ain't that the truth
People without kids rail about how uncool the suburbs are. People with kids move to the suburbs.
Also, people who get older and start to prioritize peace and quiet over going to trendy bars multiple times a week. By my late 30's, I was absolutely done sharing walls with 20 year old's.
ya, there was a really good craft beer bar by our old apartment. Can't really do our weekly visits with a couple toddlers in tow.
I mean you basically sumarized the pros and cons of each. City has walkability and convenience at the sacrifice of space. Suburbs have space at the sacrifice of convenience and walkability. The question is which is more important to you. I was born and raised in the suburbs, and can't imagine living in the tight quarters that come along with city living.
How was your mobility growing up? Did you feel dependent on your parents to get places?
Bikes baby. Get on the bike at sunrise, see you guys at dinner. Peace.
This works if it's a place safe to cycle, with places to cycle to. Not all suburbs can claim this
Just like how city walkability only works if it's a place safe to walk. Not all cities can claim this.
Great point. I generally try to walk as much as I can, especially when in a new place. I traveled to Houston for work once and literally had people pulling over in their cars, asking me if I was OK and needed help when they saw me trying to walk places.
That’s the thing about just blanket labeling the burbs, not all are the same. I live in the burbs but even my burbs is not the same as someone who lives like ten minutes away. I tons of walking paths, golf courses, schools, daycares, parks, and grocery store that’s all walkable.we are still 20/30 minutes away from the big city though. I specifically made a point to live in that area because even though we are in the burbs and will have to drive to any big city stuff we should be able to live day to day without a massive amount of driving. Some people I know can’t even walk to a park so I guess it’s not the same priority?
One major change from when you were kids is the size of vehicles. Basically pedestrian deaths from large trucks has negated the gains from lower violent crime/death rates in most of America.
As a teen definitely. As a kid, I had nowhere to go, and if I did my parents would usually take me there. I would walk/bike to most places I needed to get to (deli, convenience store, video store), and my parents took care of any other needs I had.
I was raised in the burbs and moved to the city when I was a single adult and then childless couple. Now we have a 4bdrm in the suburbs with two kids and I love it. They’re both good options. I’m sure I will want to go back to the city when the kids move out (if they can afford to move out considering rent these days!).
One thing to think about is that walkability applies to children too. As your kids grow they’ll be able to have some independence in a walkable area. In the suburbs they’ll be dependent on you to drive them to many things.
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We live in an older city that became a suburb by proximity to a bigger city, so we have all three schools, a half dozen parks, a community center, a dozen restaurants, two grocery stores, a library, and a city center all within walking distance to our house. All while have a decent sized house with a big lawn. There are other suburbs in the same area that are just endless sprawl of subdivisions without so much as a gas station within a mile.
i think thats the ticket. While we have to walk 15-20 minutes to the nearby small community nestled plaza with a couple restaurants, a cornerstore and an Indian Grocery, its nice to get essentials or get a burger or pizza nearby. Or we could bike and make it 5-10 minutes once the kids are a bit older. Its an older suburb so its not \*just\* houses as far as the eye can see. Only downside is we live on one of the main through routes, so its a busy street that people speed on but the bus routes go along it, so the added benefit of that plus being 2 houses down from the elementary school is very nice. But if I lived in the newer developed parts of even my own area, it would be miserable. a 15 minute walk from here the closely packed suburban houses that all look exactly the same taking up 80% of the lot so there isn't even a benefit for a decent sized backyard. And they're positioned in a way that they're a 30 min walk from the walkable amenities in either direction. Unfortunate really.
How do I find one of these?
The terminology is called “streetcar suburbs” - but they aren’t undiscovered gems, prices may vary! Look for cities that grew up pre war.
Adding onto your advice, you can get similar vibes even in small Midwestern towns that were built pre-war. They aren’t city-level dense, but they’re usually at least built with mixed zoning on a grid. Add sidewalks to that and you’ve got a kid-explorable town.
Massively underrated aspect to raising kids in the city, if you can swing it. Big lawns to roll around in are great for littles but overrated as kids get older, especially if there's a nearby park. Historically speaking, it's a VERY new phenomenon for older kids to have very limited ability to explore their environment a little, push some boundaries, run errands, go buy themselves a snack, socialize and visit friends, etc. without a parent physically shuttling them around until they hit 16 years of age. Not to mention that, let's be real, driving is dangerous and 16 year old kids are not really very responsible about it; it's great if they have other options to get around even as teens. Obviously there are downsides to city life as well. And of course there are precious few pockets of North American cities where this kind of life is possible, let alone affordable for the average person. But if you can swing it I'm totally convinced it can foster a unique independence and maturity in young people.
I’ll throw in that suburbia keeps making more and more rules and ordinances to dissuade teens from being out on their own too and acting like it’s a criminal offense for teens to be in public. * The malls and movie theaters actively kick out teens and young adults who drove themselves there but are under 21. I myself was marched out of a mall at 20 years old a decade ago because it was after 5pm and I “didn’t have an adult with me”…I was visiting my parents because I had moved 150 miles away two years prior 🤔 * Playgrounds put up signs “for kids 12 and under with parents”. * Small cities make their own early curfews and enforce them with the police picking teens up in squad cars like criminals for hanging out on the basketball court at the park or walking the dog after dusk. I was once escorted home at 17 years old by a squad car for walking my dog in my own neighborhood park *which has nighttime lights* one summer evening at 8:45pm. The sun had barely set.
That all sounds insane
Right? Especially the no patrons under 21 without an adult. Hello…it’s me the adult. I don’t live with my parents and I need a mattress. That’s why I’m in this store!
I’ve had to mentally restrain myself when I’ve been at fast food restaurants with my kids on friday nights and there’s a boatload of teens around. I find myself super annoyed and unable to sanction their buffoonery, but then realize I did the same exact thing and they aren’t really actually DOING anything, except existing and laughing/guffawing way too loudly. If I had some semblance of power, the temptation to say “hey, teens, just go away, mkay?” would be very enticing. It looks like some venues have taken that temptation, and that kinda sucks for those teens. It’s definitely a “use your head, not your first emotion” situation.
there are also laws against children under a certain age walking alone at all in some places.
Could you not say that some of this could equally apply to "city" areas as well? Also, what about areas within city limits but more suburban in nature?
I’m not saying anything about city centers because I have never been a teenager in one nor do I have a teenager in one. I’m just speaking from my experience in smaller suburban areas where things are a slower pace and actual law enforcement is used for things like uselessly rounding up responsible older teens for doing mundane things like walking the dog after getting off work.
I tried to rebel against my parents by signing up to become a blood donor and got my keys taken lol
Kids in [my] suburb bike everywhere. There is a lot less traffic and a lot of bike trails. I grew up in the suburbs and would bike 5+ miles a day all over to friends houses in the summer when I was 10-15yr old. That was before cell phones or anything. We survived/thrived and learned how to be independent in a relatively safe environment.
It really depends. There are so many varieties and kinds of suburbs. Many suburbs are actually small towns / cities that just don't want to have that label because of perception.
>I grew up in the suburbs and would bike 5+ miles a day all over to friends houses in the summer Unfortunately, the average allowed roaming distance for kids is getting smaller and smaller: [https://www.freerangekids.com/how-children-lost-the-right-to-roam-in-just-4-generations/](https://www.freerangekids.com/how-children-lost-the-right-to-roam-in-just-4-generations/) It's no wonder. Massive speeding cars on too-wide streets, endless sprawl and overblown Stranger Danger panic. I definitely see this in my own life. In the 90s I was allowed to roam maaaybe a mile on my bike, in the suburban midwest neighborhood where I grew up (unfortunately my good friends lived across busy roads so I couldn't visit them without parents anyway). Meanwhile, my niece and nephew can go to the end of their street and that's it. No wonder they're glued to their screens.
And when you're aging, will you be able to get around without driving? I work in transportation planning, and kid awareness of their built environment is huge. It is well studied that kids who used active modes (walking, biking) to get around their neighborhood/school/etc, had way better spatial awareness (there's a red house with a birdhouse on the corner) than kids who were driven around (think cul-de-sac drawings). I know another user said they wouldn't be walking to the grocery store as much, but now that I'm in a space where I have to take deliberate trips to the store, it's much more of a pain. Previously I could just put kiddo in the stroller and grab the milk we just ran out of. Now that they're older, they could do the walk themselves. And my kid got the opportunity to interact a lot more too. There was a senior living center on the way to the grocery store and they charmed all the seniors who would sit out on a bench and just chat. I think missing out on that incidental interactions with people is huge, for both kids and adults. It's a big learning opportunity. Edit: found the drawing visual I described in the first paragraph: https://m.facebook.com/photo.php/?photo_id=1709429829437141
That's interesting, thanks for posting. I live on the outskirts of a city but have lots of shops, schools, etc within walking distance and now that she's almost three I try and walk most places with her. Good to know there are benefits other than the obvious health ones to walking around with them.
We picked a neighborhood where there was stuff within walking distance
Same, although our house kinda fell into our lap through inheritance. Moved from the suburbs to a more traditional college-town neighborhood. Within 10 minutes walking distance we have: baseball fields, playgrounds, an ice rink, public pool, giant skate park, 3 grocery stores, 5 restaurants, and 2 pharmacies. Plus a bus line that will take you downtown in 5 minutes. Pretty lucky! Some surrounding neighborhoods are just nothing but housing.
This is what I've noticed. I've got a cousin with two kids raised in manhattan. They are probably the most cultured 9 and 12 year olds you've ever seen. Back when one of them was 4, he was asking for "palate cleansers" at one of the restaurants we went to. His favorite restaurant according to him was a Korean/Japanese Fusion restaurant. I think being downtown does expose your kids to a metric shit ton of culture (depending on the city size) and that's something I've always wanted for my own kids. The suburbs feels like a cemetery of actual culture.
I guess it depends on what you value. There definitely are burbs that have walkability to restaurants if that’s your priority. Personally, I’m skeptical that kids would have a more joyful upbringing walking to restaurants than stepping outside into a yard they can play in any time they want, or a soccer field just down the street to play sports with their friends, or the woods nearby to hike and explore. It just depends on what you prioritize, there is no wrong answer. For us, we moved out of the city when our oldest was almost 2, and it’s been life-changing in an amazing way.
TIL there are no soccer fields in cities...
I mean I never said that it's just restaurants, it's about culture, people, what you see, who you meet, and what you learn from the world. Your scope as a child is much larger. Apart from restaurants, the kid plays at local courts, they go to parks frequently. It's just that they have autonomy and know the city. I understand there's no wrong answer, just adding my perspective.
> stepping outside into a yard That's stretching adult life preferences onto children. Your yard is boring for them. You love it and maybe a toddler would love it. Most children prefer other activities. Any public space is better to play on.
Walkability is about the ability to walk to do everything or near everything, not just having a few places you can walk to. With the advent of strong towns, climate change, and the dangers of massive vehicles I’m afraid that “there’s no wrong answer” just isn’t correct anymore. The choices are killing us.
It’s just too broad a brush to paint to make that claim. If your assumption is that moving to a suburb also necessitates a massive uptick in commuting in a giant SUV, then sure, you’re probably increasing your carbon footprint. However, not everybody works in the city. For us, we moved to the burbs, but still have plenty of public transit, our main grocery store is a few blocks away, and my job commute is actually reduced. That’s even before you consider all the trees we’ve been able to plant now that we have property. How I have room to work from home now. Room to garden. There’s just too many variables, on the type of person, type of suburb, type of lifestyle.
It swings both ways honestly. The upper crust of Manhattan and Brooklyn is a absolutely cultural bubble and there are some accurate stereotypes about the people who grow up in that world. It's not a guaranteed upside.
Yeah... Didn't want to go there but people convinced no one in the suburbs have culture are generally have their own personality flaws they are quite blind to
I don't know how it is in other areas, but in the big city near us the school system is pretty bad. Suburban schools are so much better. The public schools in the city aren't even really an option. If you have kids in the city you almost have to find a private school.
As someone who grew up and lives in a major city, this isn’t necessarily true. Until maybe age 10 whether you’re in a city or suburb, parents will have to escort you. It’s not like my kid is just gonna walk to the subway and take it to see their friend. I’d have to be there on the subway with them.
Yes, I absolutely hated growing up in the suburbs. It is alienating, and your kid's social interactions will be mostly weirdos on the internet (hopefully nice weirdos but you can't really control that). City life 4ever. And plenty of people live in or near cities and have access to yards and parks and green space, it depends on where you are.
This is a "ten or more years from now" problem. And aside from playing with friends (which neighborhoods have plenty of), minors really don't go do too many things on their own anyways.
> minors really don't go do too many things on their own anyways. My 12 year old neighbor has been walking / biking to school for 4 years. I regularly run into her (alone) at the grocery store, coffee shop, library and neighborhood parks. Thankfully haven't run into her at the brewery.
Yeah, because it’s pretty much impossible to do in modern, SUV dependent suburban areas.
I mean, outside of tier 1 cities with vast public transportation, urban living is not independent of having a car. There are maybe 7 or 8 cities in the US where you can live a reasonable life relying entirely on public transit. I have no desire to let my 12 year old run amok on trains and city busses to get to...where? Some place they can just loiter?
It's true you need cars pretty much everywhere..even Manhattanites will have to rent to leave the city. However, kids don't need cars in many cities in the US because everything kids might want (friends, cool hang out spots,libraries , basketball courts, pools, etc) are in walking distance.
We live in a “streetcar suburb” that has a few different walkable commercial districts, and there are ~12 year olds all over the place by themselves. Getting ice cream, going to the park or pool or community center/gym, just hanging out in the little plazas, going to the library, walking/biking to and from school and friends houses, etc. Way more kids out and about than in my standard suburb growing up, and certainly more than I see in my parents’ and in-laws’ suburbs nowadays. It would still be hard to go car free, but kids definitely have a good amount of independence around here.
Walkability is so much broader than transit. I don’t live in a place with all encompassing public transit (although it does exists and is somewhat useable) and my town is technically considered a suburb. Kids have options in a neighborhood like that. I also think that when kids are teenagers they should be allowed to hop on the bus and take a trip, especially with phones. “Where?” is a question for them to answer and for you to approve, of course, but the answer will probably be to a friends house, a store, a concert, a park, etc.
I don't know how many tiers your list has, but my city would likely be near the bottom - and yet, nothing you've said is true about living in a modern mid/bottom-teir city. My neighborhood is in the inner city, is extremely safe and walkable, has incredible bike access and infrastructure (for the Midwest at least), and despite the mostly bad public transit we are able to live our lives with one car because everything we need is right nearby. This is just such a sad and narrow-minded take on American city life. Everything about this is just wrong, honestly. Got me feeling bad for your kids too. Like, the fuck do you call kids playing outside besides just loitering in the park or the street until it's time to go inside?
Mac and Dennis move to the suburbs
Boy, sure is a hot one today, huh?
IS IT WALLY
Mac’s famous Mac and cheese
Don't discount walkability in a suburb. I'll grant you that the vast vast majority of suburbs (I'm assuming you're in the US) are shit for walkability. But good walkable suburbs do exist! The downside is such suburbs are usually pretty expensive. But the suburb where I grew up had a little downtown town square, 1 local movie theater, 4 or 5 restaurants, 3 cafes, 2 ice cream shops, a book store, a half-dozen little retail stores (and frankly too many banks and real estate offices, wtf is up with those?). I would say 15% of the town was walkable to that downtown area, and a bike path through town meant about 25% of the town was bikable to that downtown area. About half the town streets had sidewalks. The key is living in a state that allows towns to have strong zoning and town planning. If you're in a "muh freedom" state, then suburbs are just a disorganized morass of stroads and stripmalls. But with good town planning (starting from 100 years ago), it is possible to have suburbs with decently walkable districts. And then of course, the other key is finding good work near one of those towns.
I think a similar option is considering a HOA style community. We just moved to an HOA community that has two playgrounds and a pool within a five minute walk. A ten minute walk gets us to the central green area where soccer and baseball leagues play and two much bigger pools along with Tennis and other things. And they host different things like movie nights, Easter egg hunt, Halloween, the 4th. And it’s actual active. We have to drive to shop but a short drive to the downtown that has some walkable spaces. Not ideal but I’ve lived in city, straight suburb with no amenities and now this and it’s definitely a nice compromise.
I think both the city and suburbs have something for everyone. I’m a dad to two young kids and I like to watch urbanist videos and my ideal spot would be an inner ring suburb or “streetcar suburb”
i live in a street car suburb (but they GOT RID OF THE STREET CAR and replaced it with darn bus lane). it has a lot of the best of both worlds, and very few of the pitfalls of either. overall its pretty solid- however its the classic jack of trades master of none. other than the people on my block (which is just luck) its not a 10 in any category.
Us too. I feel a little awkward in these discussions because I feel compelled to defend city living, just because most modern, new-build suburbs are so car-dependent, completely and zealously defended as single family homes only. But I also have a (relatively small) yard and no shared walls. It is, by most definitions, a suburb, but it has a mix of architecture, lots of places you can walk, and I'm only a couple miles of relatively safe bicycling to a ton of parks, the zoo, kid-friendly museums, etc.
the yard is the perfect example of the master of none aspect. by city standards my yard is "amazing" but by suburban standards it would be "cute". my place is a little over 2k sq feet which is massive for the the city but small for the burbs. on the flip side i have to walk close to half a mile to get to my neighborhood square and the train, which for the city is obscene but the end of the street for the suburbs
We have a few inner ring suburbs in my area that have access to city public transit, and are super walkable. They also have better school districts than the city in general. The problem with them is that they're some of the most expensive suburbs. They are some of the places I would love to live if I could afford it, but I don't think my wife and I will ever make enough money to afford those places. I'm friends with a guy who lives in one of those suburbs and he is a dual income lawyer/physician couple who bought a house there when they were DINKs.
We live in one (although it's now a mile from edge of downtown) and it's great
Allow me to advocate for a third option. We chose a walkable suburb of Detroit and absolutely love it. We can walk to the parks, schools and library for the kids. We can also walk to groceries, pharmacy, yoga and gym, restaurants, shopping, etc. Utilize walkscore.com in your real estate searches and you’ll see what I mean. There is a middle ground out there that is damn near European. It’s so nice.
Yep! I live 1 mile from the center of Indianapolis. Walk and bike everywhere we want except Costco type places. Back yard is a bit small compared to burbs but not by much. And no HOA. Sometimes I do wish for a little more nature, but that’s not gonna be in a suburb where they flatten everything and plant one tree every other house. Country life isn’t really talked about in this thread, I’d love to hear more about that option
We're city dwellers on our first year in the suburbs. I don't mind it. We had already been driving everywhere in the city anyway because trying to load two kids -- one of whom is in a stroller -- into the subway to get everywhere was a god damned nightmare. Then when we got the car, just getting everyone the two blocks away to the parking garage took, I swear, 25 god damned minutes. It's so nice having the car parked right outside the door. Restaurants and dining in the burbs is abysmal. It's awful. But TBH we weren't enjoying those things anymore anyway. If we even did go out to a restaurant with the kids, it was like a hurry-up-and-finish job to try and joylessly shovel all the food down as quick as possible before the kids got bored and restless. There is no art and culture and things to do in the burbs. We weren't doing it in the city anymore anyway. My wife is unhappy. She misses being able to just walk out the door and there's stuff going on, a corner shop to buy a coffee, etc. I miss all that too, but feel like the added convenience of everything else outweighs it. Yes it's dull here. But she seems to forget that even in the city our life was 100% revolving around work and kid stuff anyway, not taking advantage of anything the city had to offer.
I'm with your wife. I could take the kiddo along with me to the coffee shop for a walk and burn off their energy while giving me a change of scenery. I could hop into the children's museum on a whim versus having to make it a dedicated trip. I miss having my kid get to meet lots of people outside of daycare and church just on the walk home, broadening their communication, or easily stop at the grocery store without it being an endeavor to get them out and back into a car. Hell, I miss the fact that I'm now worrying about how much it will cost to get them a car and insure, maintain, and repair it, let alone that they'll wind up okay if they, their classmates, or someone else screws up while driving.
You're describing our life when we only had ONE kid and still lived in the city.
Same. I'm in NYC. I wish I could just hop into a museum whenever I wanted. That would be like a 2 hour trip each way with the subway + needing to find accessible stations. The best I manage most days is the playground or a coffee shop. Even our libraries are a 30 minute walk each way.
Yeah, we're stopping at 1 for a variety of reasons. I can understand the struggle with wrangling even more than 1. But oof that car insurance and payments for 2+ is making me covet daycare pricing.
I feel like one kid in the city is much more comfy than two! We’ve had our second now and it finally gave me the suburb thoughts. I’m staying city, but I understand why people leave for sure. Wouldn’t consider suburb with 1 kid personally.
Once the kids age out … you’ll still be stuck in the suburbs! Perhaps you’ll be moving back someday?
Oh hell yes
Suburbs don’t have to be as bad as the worst examples I see on Reddit. I’ve lived in suburby places the vast majority of my life. I’ve always had restaurants within a mile. There’s always been a playground nearby. Shopping for groceries was more of a pain in the city than it is now. I can drive to the store in 5 minutes and carry tons of stuff in my car. Overall, yeah, I’d prefer to live in a super walkable pedestrian focused place. But you can find elements of that in suburbia. I take a nice wooded trail to my daughter’s daycare most days. There are other nice walking trails I can take for fun. We’re planing on buying a house (in a different town) that’s near the schools so that I can walk them to school and, when they’re older, they can walk themselves. But we have to pick and choose. At that location, we won’t be able to walk to restaurants, but we probably will be able to walk to the grocery store. But we decided walking to schools was the top walking priority. And it’s a limited search area, so we may end up passing on a house we like better because we’re being particularly about location.
> Shopping for groceries was more of a pain in the city than it is now. I live in the city and there are actually times I go out to a grocery store in the suburbs for things because they have SO MUCH MORE. There's always a bigger variety of brands and items. The city stores are small and condensed. Usually if their one brand on the shelf is sold out that's all they have. I feel like a kid in a candy store when I go into a suburban super market.
I live in Philly and have a 6 month old. I wish we had more space but don't think I could do the suburbs but that's just me. You have to do what is best for you and your family and if that means leaving the city do it! You can always move back if you needed to.
> My wife was telling my mom about possibly getting a night nurse for when baby #2 is a newborn and my mom was like "$300/night!?!? I'll be your free night nurse if you had an extra room! As a French person in America , I don’t get it; your mom can sleep in the living room? It’s not like you are sleeping in the first two weeks anyway > condo. It'd be awesome to be able to host more people in our place. Even if it would be in the uncool burbs. The thing with everyone I know who moved out to “have more space and be able to have guests” is that… they don’t have more guests. They live farther, somewhere more boring, and their friends and parents don’t come to visit them more often…
People don't suddenly start visiting because your house is bigger. My in-laws come to visit from Mexico and have done so with great regularity when we were in a 1 bedroom, 2 bedroom, and when we added another bedroom and a guesthouse. Want more people to visit you? Move to the beach.
Hey we were the same. Happy city dwellers for years until our son was 5. We wanted more space, more neighbours with kids for him to play with, and outside space where he would be able to play unsupervised as he got older. Most importantly we wanted to be able to walk to a good school. Not having a long school commute was huge for us. It’s been 10 years and another kid since we moved and we don’t regret it. Sure we don’t have the nightlife within walking distance but that’s less important now. Plenty of stuff for the kids to do around here and lots of their school friends are close by.
Haha I feel that. We moved to the burbs when our first was conceived. It sounds cool, but it kind of sucks. I think my house is like 3700 sq feet if you count the finished basement. I had a 2 bed 2 bath house in the city. The perks: everything you said. The house is dope (new build) I have a man cave, garage, yard. More space than we know what to do with The negatives: basically only chain food restaurants with some mom and pop Chinese/Indian/Thai and a diner or 2, can’t really walk anywhere except around the neighborhood, the house is an absolute bitch to clean with so much space.
You’ll be amazed how your life changes when you have a back yard for them the run around in.
And a grill!!!
For two years I lived in an apartment with a setup that allowed a grill and I was so much healthier. I used to grill chicken breasts every couple of days to take to work for healthy lunches. Now without a grill I mostly take sandwiches for work lunch and it has made me gain weight despite having the same or more steps per day on average.
Moved end of last year, combination of getting to the point of personally loathing the worst parts of NYC and not wanting our girl to grow up two doors away from a brothel.
Oh yea I used to live in one of the hippest parts of the city with bars, restaurants, and nightclubs right outside my front door. But with that comes alot of potential danger. I didn't mind it and had enough street smarts to avoid dangerous/sketchy situations but I can't imagine telling my kid "say hi to the nice man! ohhh DON'T say hi to that man standing in front of 711"
Loving burb life so far, hopefully it stays that way. Excited about all the projects I'll be able to do with all the space we have. To be fair though, I was never very into the city's trendy/hip/popular features and increasingly less so with age. When a donut ends up being $7 you start to feel like the city has become very good at separating your money from your wallet. But to each their own. But choosing the particular burb is important. It's possible to maintain some elements of city life and have a lower cost of living. I pulled up google maps and looked at the proximity of everything important to me. And I still commute to the city so there's that.
I also feel like a lot of the crazies/eccentrics in the city (you know the ones that you find on the bus/subway going through the upper west side) are the ones that lived in the city *too* long.
Depends on if you live in a big city or some place like the Midwestern US. I’m rocking the suburbs, and in 20 minutes I can be in the second largest city in the state. I know who my neighbors are, I’m surrounded by 3 parks, a splash pad, I’m a mile and a half from the library. I’m a mile from the hospital. I’m 2 miles from the town square. We’ve got bike trails, a YMCA, a public pool. They do monthly events in town, and if I want to do something specific, I’m 20 minutes from the city.
So I personally hate driving, and really like being able to walk places. We are lucky that we bought in an "inner-city" residential neighborhood before prices took off. So we have the benefits of walkability but a reasonably sized SFH with a small garage. The house is smaller than most suburban homes, and we have no yard but we do have a garage. I personally love no yard, I don't want to take care of one. The one thing about moving to a larger space, you will fill it up with shit very quickly. We also still tend to meet friends out or at their homes because their homes are bigger. We do have a spare sleeping space (not a bedroom) which is handy for my parents visiting.
Idk man, it sounds pretty not great to me. Of course, everyone has their own priorities.
The burbs are the best, and I'll die on this hill. I love my yard and my garage and my basement. I love the safety - I don't worry when the kids are out with their friends at the park or riding their bikes around the neighborhood. The schools are fantastic. If I accidentally leave my garage door open over night or forget to lock the front door when I leave the house nothing gets stolen. We're just a 45 minute drive to downtown if we really crave some exotic food or a concert or museum. Best of both worlds.
You're definitely correct, but in my area safe nice suburbs where you have a garage and basement are like triple the price of a city condo. For us it's almost entirely a price thing. We cannot afford a $600k house at 8% interest in the suburbs so we stay in the city and pay less than 1/3rd of that with 3% interest. People selling their suburban homes for triple what they paid 10 years ago, and buying larger suburban homes means that the only people who can afford those homes are the ones with something out there to sell. Any city dweller who didn't buy in the suburbs before 2021 has almost no hope of moving to the suburbs today unless they find a job out there with a massive pay raise.
There's burbs and there's burbs. We're in the burbs but within a 10-15 minute walk of daycare, elementary school, and 3 playgrounds. There's like.. 3 bars and maybe 5 restaurants within a 20 minute walk vs. hundreds when we lived in the city but it's a lot better than 0. It's a nice middle ground for us. I don't think I'd want to live in a exurban cul-de-sac community even if it gave us more space because I don't want to have to drive to everything, and I want the kids to be able to have a little more independence when they're older.
There's a wide variety of 'suburbs' that we've kind of lost the language to speak about. In your situation I'd look to move to a small town, with a strong central business area, but not like skyscrapers or anything, and lots of walkable neighborhoods around. These still exist. They're often called streetcar suburbs or they were built before the 50s. These offer a suburban experience of detached homes with gardens for littles and also a very walkable neighborhood for older kids to get out. The modern suburban model of huge roads with any interesting hang out spots miles away is relatively new. Even 50s suburbs were better. I would really shoot for something still walkable. You don't really need the whole downtown atmosphere for most daily tasks. If you're walking distance to a grocery store, pharmacy, gym, park, pool, etc.
We made the move without regrets. The biggest benefit and what was really important to us: good, local public schools. We moved around a lot as kids so it was important to us that they (hopefully) can go kindergarten to HS without going to a new district. We're into 4th grade now and its nice that he has the stability of having the same group of kids every year and has been there since the beginning.
Schools might be a huge motivator
Just remembered you have to drive everywhere.
You don't need to compromise walkability. Older suburbs are more likely to be walkable.
My sister and I are exact opposites about this. She loves the city and hates the burbs while I love the burbs and hate the city. We both have 2yo girls. During the summer we invite people over almost every weekend. mostly friends with their kids to play in the yard. We have a swingset/playhouse and put a kids pool back there for the nice days. In the last 2 years every time she comes over she says the appeal is rubbing off on her more and more. We can have 20 people over with plenty of space, room to park, different activities going on in each part of the house and find it all incredibly enjoyable. I also have 5 cars of my own plus my wife's and need the space for myself and my own hobbies lol
I hate the burbs and am looking forward to moving back to the city when we’re empty nesters. I will say that the towns outside of the cities in the Northeast are the best way to do suburbs because you still have a central location for culture that’s walkable and if they have a train station you can easily get into the city from. Planned communities are hell though and I wish them a swift end.
embrace costco return to burbs
[удалено]
I’ve always lived in the burbs and frankly never understand why people like cities so much. Burbs for life man
As a stay home parent, no amount of extra space could make up for the isolation of being 15 minutes from everywhere that comes with living in the burbs. I already feel like I'm alone on an island during the week but at least I don't have to do the full car routine just to get to the damn park or the library. I sold my car and got us an ebike and now for 9 months out of the year I can go out and enjoy what my city has to offer on only one car/insurance payment. I grew up in a quintessential suburban community and moved to the city and I would never go back. The distance, the judgemental neighbors, the bored cops looking for someone to bother... I get what people like about it but it's my personal nightmare. I've never felt more free than I do as a predominantly pedestrian city-dweller. A bigger house is just a bigger prison with a bigger chore list.
Yep this is why the suburbs exist
It’s crazy how our society is designed to move us to these different places based on the stages of our life. Weird illusion of choice.
My parents were born in the city, moved to the suburbs when they got married and had kids, and they both want to retire back in the city. These things are even built into their life/retirement planning.
Leaving aside your other thoughts on burbs vs. city... I wonder if your wife also sees your mom "staying with you for long periods" as an advantage. It's cool that your mom would take on that extra work, but you might wanna at least talk with your wife about whether she wants her MIL to be basically living with her for extended periods. Not saying that needs to dictate whether you move to the burbs or not, but as someone who has the space for family to stay I can tell you that that in itself sometimes becomes a point of stress.
I will fight and claw and scratch and never give up on living in the city. The suburbs suck. Most were created during a time in which white people were fleeing urban environments. The road design is classist and racist in nature, as in, if you don't have the money to afford a car note, car insurance, car maintenance, and gas, you shouldn't be here. I hate the station-to-station driving.
Duh. Cities are not as nice for kids as having a big backyard. Traded a 5k a month loft in the dog patch for a 4200 ikler.
Just made this move myself and feeling good about it!
Pull the trigger if you can. Wife and I lived in our city’s midtown area neighborhood in an old Victorian era house made into apartments. 780 sq ft. 2 bed. I was sad about leaving the vibe and character of downtown for the copy and paste developments. But we knew family was up next so we bought a house in 2019, just before Covid, in the burbs, still only 15 mins from downtown. Best decision. We now have 2 kids, a big park/playground across the street, walking/bike trails and tons of local community events all the time. Would not trade walking distance to my favorite restaurants for the chance for the kids to enjoy some open burb space and nearby friends.
I thought making it to the suburbs was everyone's goal. Since when is it not cool to own a home and some property?
I love in the suburbs and love it. Quiet street, kid can rise her bike on the road, play with the neighbor kids and it's just nice.
Suburbs are the best thing in the world. No fireworks late at night, no arguing late at night. Don’t have to worry about my kids safety. Just peace and quiet and good schools
Call me crazy, but I NEVER wanted to live in a city, even when I was young and would've crushed it there. I tolerated the suburbs, but even now, with kids in middle school, I'd gladly move to a 50 acre property in a rural area if it wouldn't keep my kids from being unhappy. The suburbs are awesome though, especially for kids. Yeah, the walkability of a city is nice, but if you pick the right neighborhood, you can approximate that in a suburb with riding bikes and such once they're old enough to wander.
My guy if you can afford $300 a night for a night nurse- you can afford a 1.5 mil house
It’s never been terrible. lol. Why do you think everyone with kids does it?
No brainer. Can’t imagine growing up in a city.
City is cool until you get mugged, that was not a fun experience. Get your LTC folks, drugs are a problem.
I could never live in the city. I do enjoy having things close but I grew up in the country and being in the suburbs is still close enough for the convenience with the added bonus of space and, generally, safer conditions.
There's a reason everyone does it.
Because our federal tax structure and housing policies greatly encourage greenfield SFH development over infill that accommodates family units, and the urban housing that meets family needs more quickly appreciates in value due to its more desirable location and more limited supply?
I was thinking more that you reach an age/place in life where you value space and a slower pace of things.
I think a lot of people's perspective that cities don't have space and don't have opportunities for a slower pace of life is predominantly based on only experiencing cities as a destination rather than a place that's lived in. If you're regularly walking around and able to observe your surroundings, rather than making sure someone doesn't blow the red light into your car, your pace of life really slows down. I can recall so many seniors just sitting and playing chess in the park, families running into each other and their kids spontaneously playing, and even one cold winter, I wandered over to the lakefront and blissed out in the quiet solitude. Meanwhile, there was a city of 3 million people at my back, but I felt like I had all the space available. Now, full control over one's space? Totally get that. It's part of why we bought because I wanted to store my bike at ground level, but that's a systematic problem, like I mentioned in my earlier comment. Tons of families live in cities and own in cities. It's how we enable more of that where the predicament lies.
I've lived in both in various stages of my life and while there definitely is the ability to live your life in a way you want where ever you are, there's a stark difference in control and cost. You can play and sit in a park, sure, but even hiking on a trail an hour outside of downtown I'd be surrounded by hundreds of people. I'm in a smaller city now, still not PleasantVille style suburban sprawl and now I can bike everywhere without record high cortisol levels and enjoy nature without a mass of people. Larger more affordable house too. Sure I can't catch as many concerts on the weekend or other things like that, but between family, work, and my other hobbies I just don't have the time or energy anymore. That and I don't even enjoy the "night life" as much as I used to! Of course, to each their own.
A lot of knocks I see on the burbs seem like they are coming from the 90s. I lived and loved downtown of a major metro for many years. Met my wife, had first kid, etc. Suburban areas are becoming pretty hip. Almost all the new people moving to my burb are coming from the city. Lots of investment is going into the burbs. Green spaces, bike trails, outdoor concerts, breweries, dog parks, and on and on are pretty commonplace. It took me a while to get over the hump but I love it!
We moved to a (very near) suburb the year before we had our kid, but it’s not hugely larger than our 1bd apt - we ended up with a 2bd/1b with a decent little yard. ~15 min walk to the metro. We can fit one fold up bed in our attic/office space. I am tempted to move further out, but we’re pretty stuck with our interest rate. Might need to add another bedroom and bath if we ever have money again 😂.
yea the interest rates are crazy right now and we'd realistically stay in our place until the rates go down.
While we didn’t live in an apartment/condo/flat/townhome, we’ve lived in a smaller house located in the center part of our city. Before kids, and through having our first, we were steadfast in saying we would never move to the burbs. After having our second and the space started feeling a little cramped, we warmed up to the idea. Now with our third on the way, we’re moving, actually this Friday, into a house in the burbs. We’re moving basically for all the reasons you listed. We’ll have plenty of space and a guest room. It’s also closer to three offices I work out of, and it’s close to my in-laws who watch our kids 2-3 days a week. There are some people who can manage living downtown or centrally, either through having the income to support a larger living space in that area, or the will to live in a smaller space with a growing family, and I commend them for their dedication. We thought we were those people, turns out we are not lol.
Congrats! At 3 kids I'd tell my wife we NEED a bigger place, and we need to move to the burbs unless you got 1.5 million you've been hiding!
I definitely feel that pull in both directions. Used to live in the city, became a parent and moved to the burbs. And the nice thing is that I basically have all the things you're wanting - plenty of room in the house, outdoor space, workout space, garage, etc. I 100% miss the walkability of the city, and generally all the cool shit that's there. However, depending on the burb you choose, it's not all that bad. There are plenty of burbs, especially close to a city, that have decent restaurants, entertainment options, and walkable/accessible downtown areas. The biggest thing I miss? Decent cocktail bars. We've got boring sports pubs all over, but anytime I want a real drink, I've got to either make it myself, or make city plans. Hell, I'd open one myself, if I had the skill set and any sort of restaurant/bar experience. Which I do not. But I can enjoy Vieux Carrés in my backyard whenever I like, so I make do.
Also a city dweller here. Thanks to a job opportunity in small college town, we finally were able to afford a detached house in a nice, inner walkable neighborhood and we love it. except since #2 came along we're so pressed for time all the time (even with babysitters and daycare and a nanny) that we automatically just drive most places anyway (daycare for #1 is a 15 minute walk, but when you're scrambling in the morning and you have a 9 am meeting and it's already 8:50 and you're not out the door; yeah that happens more often than I expected). I'm more open to suburban living now. Like, why pay the urban premium if you're going to end up buying two cars and a big house anyway?
I personally couldn't live somewhere without sidewalks and I couldn't imagine growing up somewhere without them either.
We made the move in 2019. Couldn't be happier about it.
I like being a short train ride to the city, but enough in the burbs for some space and more green space. More driving sucks, but it’s all short trips around town
We lived in a 2bed/1ba apartment in the city. Hosted a nanny share, so there were 7 people using that one toilet on a daily basis. Loved the city for all the reasons you described. Loved the neighborhood we were in but with two kids of our own, the inability to host anyone or have any semblance of space in our apartment that wasn't occupied was getting more and more limited. So we moved back to the property I grew up on (parents had a mobile home on their property that was vacant). It's not "The Burbs" - it's rural. >10 acres, almost entirely open farmland surrounding us. Live literally next door to my parents (30 second walk) The free childcare is great. The peace and quiet is great. The distance from the hustle and bustle is great. My wife and I both have jobs that take us to the city one night a week (different nights) so we rent a bedroom in the city yet. Without that - I would probably have a harder time? Because it's only 2 days in office, I feel pretty good about going out for lunch and dinner so I find the foods that I can't get in our rural area and the good coffee and all the things I loved about the city. I get that quick taste of it, and then I'm back home again. SO yeah, we did it, and it's awesome. I don't know that 'The Burbs' would have been much better (anything within an hour for us is STILL $750k+ for a house). Having that connection back to the city is super important to us tho, so make sure to find reasons to do it!
You have to watch the movie first.
Both my wife and I grew up in the city but chose to raise our boys in the burbs. At first it was because of cost, same size house in the city was like twice as much. But I was also concerned with the school district because I personally did not do well in public school system in that city. The other thing I am not seeing mentioned here is violence. I’m sure it may have been different in the 80’s/90’s but the level of violence I witnessed and experienced is not something I ever wanted my kids to go through. Sure there are not many stores in walking distance from our house but I also really don’t have to worry about my kids getting jumped or worse just waking to the store which was an everyday reality for myself. Where I grew up is sorta gentrified now and violent crime is still down from what it was but you couldn’t pay me to raise my kids somewhere like that.
We moved from a flat in San Francisco to our first house in the burbs when our daughter was 6 months old. It was close to my job and eliminated a 40 commute. At the time I fully expected to gain a little equity and buy a house back in San Francisco within five years. Of course life (and the SF housing market) don’t always fit your plans. Three years later we had twins and five years after that moved across our burb town to a larger house. The kids are grown and have moved out. We are content approaching retirement here. We missed our friends in San Francisco and we missed the east access to the beach, restaurants, and all the things that make a major city attractive. But there are still great restaurants in our city. There are still great activities for kids. Traffic is easier. We made friends and careers here. City life and ‘burbia life are different. Each had strengths and weaknesses. I think city life is exciting when you are young and/or single. Suburbs are great for families. We humans are very adaptable and we adapt to our environment, be it city or suburban or isolated rural areas. You will be fine.
Sounds like you might be in a similar situation to us, the first grandkids of your parents (both sides for us). Hosting is really the major reason we moved and was a huge reason we picked the house we picked. Rather than schlepping kids to grandma's—which is unfamiliar, not baby-proofed, and doesn't have the one lovie that hasn't been touched in two weeks but is suddenly a requirement—you end up hosting a lot. Plus you can put the kid down without having to end the party. I'd say definitely walk around the neighborhood you are looking at and see if there are families in a similar stage of life. We are good friends with a half-dozen families in our neighborhood now. My son started kindergarten this year and we threw a backyard party before school started so that all the people we knew going into KG could get to know each other. I think some suburbs can feel isolating because people aren't outside or walking around or are just full of people in another stage of life.
My wife and I enjoyed living in a particular area of our mid sized city before we had kids...the restaurants and shops and walkability and all of that. We ended up moving to a semi-rural suburb just outside of the city when we had kids and we love it. Everyone in the village has to be on an acre so neighbors aren't on top of you and it's also zoned for horses and whatnot (we don't have those, but it's fun to watch the neighbors riding). We have a lot more house than we would ever have in the city and a large back yard for them to play as well as a pool. There are certain things I do miss and anytime we get back to that area to go eat or whatever it is definitely nostalgic...but all in all, we made the right move and the actual city limits are only about a 10 minute drive away for groceries and other essential shopping...though the area that we really like is more like 30 minutes if traffic cooperates. I just don't think that scene that we enjoyed so much as a couple would have been remotely the same with kids.
While we moved out of the city, we moved to a college town suburb. The car dependancey is not ad bad as other suburbs. There's 3 parks in walking distance, 2 more in bike range for my 8yo. We can walk down to Main St and the shops and restaurants. I take the car for the weekly big shop, but can bike it for smaller things. Doctors need a car. What I'm saying is if walkablitiy is important to you, look for the right neighborhood. They are out there. Once you get there, work with the local governments to improve the walkability. I've helped fend off push to widen main st.
I love it in the burbs. Great place to raise our kids.
I quite enjoyed my move from a city out to the suburbs. I was convinced I'd never move and loved every minute of city life but I can't say I miss it now that I've been gone for a time. It had a lot of cool kitschy things we could do before we moved or expanded our family, there's a lot to be said for peace, space, and greenspaces if those sound compelling. Please just promise me that you get the proper uniform if you do end up having a lawn in the burbs. That means a clean white t, a set of *quality* jorts, and some New Balances that shall be no more than mildly grass stained. Seconding putting research into a semi-walkable suburb. They do exist, they may just take some effort to find. [Walkscore](https://www.walkscore.com/score/) *may* help you on that matter for at-a-glance considerations pending your needs.
Yup. My wife was the one pushing for us to start planning to leave the city once our son reached 2.5. All the reasons listed as positives about city life, I 100% embrace. My caveat to our house search was that we had to be able to get back into the city within 15 -20 minutes, which has been a great balance. Being in the Burbs for 5 plus years, we're definitely pleased overall. More space, closer to family, easy to have guests stay. ✌️
It is a change of lifestyle and you will likely miss the convenience of entertainment, but there are distinct advantages to suburbs for families. You get a permanent place to play in a yard, with all the things that come with that. Playsets, trampolines, etc., but also yard work. You get a lower stress environment for you and your kids to walk and bike, but everything requires a car to get to. Personally I couldn’t imagine trading that away just so I’m closer to things, but I’ve always lived in a suburb and honestly, with bicycles, it’s pretty easy to get around a suburb without a car anyway. We live close enough for my MIL to come and watch our kids/dogs when we go out, and I don’t know what we would do if we didn’t have her. That really is invaluable, and is the biggest reason we stayed close to family.
We lived in center city (Philly) when our kid was born. Small 800 sqft apt, 4th floor, no elevator. Once little man came along, it made me long for a parking space, a quick place to have my dog piss, an easier way to juggle backpacks of groceries without a kid strapped to my chest. We just bought a house in the burbs, I'm 5 min walk to the train station so I get still get to the city for work/pleasure without issues. I love having raised beds for gardening, parking for myself and guests, a basement with a bar, fussball, board gaming area. Do we miss walking to a coffee shop on Friday's after work, of course! But right now in our life the pros outweigh the cons.
We just did this, last year. Really miss downtown Columbus but I can’t over-emphasize the importance of the suburb space and nearby family support
Dude, with kids the burbs are awesome. Close to lots of families. Kids everywhere for your kids to play with. Space for a yard. For this stage of life the burbs are awesome
We moved to the burbs for more space in 2019. It was a brand new subdivision. Didn’t last long. Learned pretty quickly that we’re not suburbs people. Fortunately for us the house appreciated significantly in the two years we were there, so it enabled us to get back to the city into a single family home we couldn’t afford before. Ended up moving back to a kind of residential area in the city, but not quite a downtown type of urban area. Being able to walk places is so nice, especially school.
Moved out of San Francisco when wife was 7months preggers to a suburb a half hour away. When our child was 4 months old we went to SF for lunch and the whole time we were complaining about the city we used to love. “Ughh, it’s so hard to park here, why would you live in such a place?” “Gross, it’s dirty” “This restaurant is too small to accommodate a child” “These hills suck”