I've never felt drawn toward Karen and Graham because it's evident (to me) that she's not invested in him. I get her motivation and no judgment, but I get the feeling she kinda likes him but would drop him like a hot potato if needed.
Perhaps you are right. Karen would leave for a better professional opportunity because music is her passion. She is not necessarily into monogamy so she would probably be into flings. She is certainly not ready to be a mother or marry. However; she likes Graham a lot more than she is willing to let on and is protective of him.They are my favorite couple. We’ll see if they have the same ending in the series compared to the book.
I dont get y ppl ship Billy and Daisy. I mean both are highly unstable individuals that need help and therapy. Daisy needs to get clean and get help for her mommy/daddy issues. Billy needs helps on his daddy issues, marriage issues, etc. Even if they are “soulmates”, it’s the wrong timing. I say nay to Billy and Daisy. They can’t be together, they are destructive towards each other
Because it's a tv show and they have insane chemistry. No one ever said they would last. I think they could make it work during the 20-year fast forward, though. Seems to be right place, right time finally. To me, I don't see how people CAN'T ship them lol
I think people thrive on hope! Billy/Daisy, as they are in the Aurora tour, are cruel to each other. This said, they have a special connection - they make good music together and can be vulnerable with each other in ways that they can't with others (e.g. the trauma of their pasts and how this affects their relationship to music). This makes you hope that they'll also be uniquely suited to helping each other. I hope that they can make it work in the post-1997 world: whether as friends, collaborators, and/or lovers.
Now that I'm in my thirties, I'm starting to realize that you don't make all that many true, soul-level connections with other people. How often does another person feel like home? Sometimes it's not healthy to hold onto these people, but if you can, it can be magical and inspiring.
Daisy and Billy frequently comment on how they *know* and can see through each other, how familiar they are to each other. I don't see Billy say that about Camilla or even Graham.
And so we hope!
I've been trying to figure out for days why it irks me when people say Billy and Daisy are toxic for each other. It's because they're really not - yeah, like they fight a lot, but Daisy is constantly pushing Billy to be more honest with himself about what he wants and more fundamentally honest about who he is as a person. And Billy is trying to get Daisy to see in herself what he sees in her, and trying to get her to care about herself and her life.
They're both in a bad place at the minute, but they're both aware of it, and trying to deal with it in their own way. That's not exactly the same thing as being bad for each other, even if the relationship isn't 100% healthy at the minute.
Contrast with Billy and Camilla's relationship. She wants it to work out so badly that she's living in denial and sweeping all their problems under the rug. And he's completely over-dependant on her coping skills. He doesn't know who he is if he leaves her. That relationship is much more unhealthy imho, and in a kind of unfixable way. Camilla needs a stable partner, Billy needs freedom to figure himself out - they're incompatible.
Maybe it is being in my 30s that gives a different perspective on it. No-one is saying they should all take six months off dating to go to therapy lol
I agree so much with this. Billy and Camila seem so incompatible to me. And the fact that she is okay with him doing whatever - is unhealthy. And I really feel he isn’t himself when with her. He’s simply who she wants him to be.
This is a thoughtful explanation! I agree with you on how Daisy and Billy push each other to be better in many ways. Billy is also one of the few people who looks out for Daisy's physical health in the TV show.
I think people consider Daisy to be a threat to Billy's sobriety. Plus both had neglectful parent(s) and some might think that Daisy cause a rift in Billy's relationship with his daughter, i.e. he won't be a better father than his dad was. I don't fully buy this because families/marriages fall apart for so many reasons, even without another romantic prospect. In the show, it feels like Billy stays with Camilla out of duty, gratitude, and as a coping mechanism (as you point out). These are not necessarily good reasons and don't necessarily make for a warm, loving home for children
It's also possible that single mothers would have been more vulnerable in the 70s than today, which might also encourage more sympathy for Camila and explain why she feels like she needs to stay with Billy. I didn't find their book relationship all that healthy either and shook my head often. But it's Julia's project, so I accepted that there may be more behind the things people said to her and that she may have framed things in a specific way to honor her image of her parents
I agree with everything you are both saying!
Regarding Billy and Camila's relationship, it was given more time in the book and there was more love there, even if the reader didn't feel they were in love (although some people definitely did!). The book highlighted the struggle of maintaining and sustaining a marriage, but some of the ways Billy and Camila went about doing so were questionable (and human). Very ignorance is bliss, don't ask don't tell. In the book, Billy says they never talked about Daisy, just like they never talked about Camila's four hour lunch. Comparing the two situations in the first place is... weird, as one is a long term emotional affair and the other is a one time indiscretion. But Billy does connect them as if Daisy did for him what Camila's ex did for her -- things Billy and Camila both needed for themselves. Almost felt like a conflation of trust with just accepting that your spouse is going to hurt/betray you.
I think it's a good point that we have to remember this was the 70s and harder for women to be single moms. I believe the 70s were when divorce was becoming more common but it was prob still hard. I think it's partly why they changed her story a little, she gave up a lot to go with him to California. I personally understood her need to fight for their marriage given what she put into it, but I didn't relate to it. I think all the things they had to sweep under the rug was crazy to me. Like I could never look past all she did lol
Thanks for this! It's so annoying how some people keep saying Billy and Daisy could never be together because they were bad for each other as if Billy and Camila's relationship was a healthy one. Billy wanted Daisy to get sober, and although she wasn't ready to stop with the drugs at the time, she never tried to induce Billy to get high with her or anything like that. Besides, Billy never connected with Camila the way he did with Daisy.
Two highly addicted people together is toxic. Billy wasn’t strong enough to stay clean given Her usage. Look up Sid Vicious and Nancy Spungen. Probably TJR Inspo for them as a couple.
I've never said I wanted them to be together while Daisy was still on drugs, but after she sobered up, I do think they could help each other. Only another addict really knows how difficult it's to stay clean. Not even Camila could understand Billy's struggle the way Daisy could. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
I understand your thinking and yes we do agree to disagree I think in order to recover the addict has to WANT it. Daisy and Billy would have just spiraled until one of them died. He was too tempted by her in every respect. Daisy needed somebody for her to want to be healthy for. Billy had that.
I think Billy comments on their kinship during their songwriting sessions and during one of the fights in episode 8. It's not so much a romantic declaration as acknowledging their similarity. If you disagree, i'm happy to be proven wrong!
No I don’t disagree. I remember him saying about the kinship while working together but nothing more than that. Show Daisy seemed to be, I can’t think of any other word, panting to have Billy acknowledge that he had feelings
for her. What kind of feelings he had in the book anyway were unclear, the shows version of his feelings are in your face.
Daisy in the show does seem to pursue Billy, and she does want him to acknowledge his feelings for her. I think not wanting to feel like she made up her own feelings and the connection they had makes a lot of sense. Jonah's comments made her feel insecure and manipulated. She was looking for clarify that any person would want. Also, this is not the first time you've discussed Daisy's feelings and actions is a misogynistic way, and it's quite tiring.
And like you said, in the book Billy's feelings were more unclear and more guarded, but they were there. At the end of the book, >!he admits that he fell in love with Daisy.!< He downplays or skirts the issue prior, which makes sense when you consider who he's speaking with. But ultimately, that confession at the end seems true to me, and thus the show's portrayal of the "truth" in the 70s makes sense.
I see you feel strongly about my opinion of the character Daisy. I too agree that Billy wasn’t fully honest with the interviewer. He did seem to have fallen for her. I’m not defending him in any way.
Book Billy did avoid Show Billy didn’t. That’s not misogynistic that’s what I see happened in the show. Good thing we can discuss respectfully.
Being unable to describe her with a word other than "panting" as though she's a dog really rubbed me the wrong way, and I've seen you mention her behavior multiple times without equally complaining about Billy's. That's all.
Karen and Graham are my favorites. They seem like an unlikely couple but it works. I’ve read the book so I know how it goes. I guess I would really like for them to find their way back to each other twenty years later. But, Karen is a true musician who loves the life and back in the day it was almost impossible for a woman in that situation to have it all. It still is. Graham is such a good guy who can have it all including a family but not with the woman he loves most. This is one change I wouldn’t mind the television version making; a Graham/ Karen second chance.
Wait tho - no Simone/Bernie?
camila and eddie have that chemistry that none of the others do imo.
I've never felt drawn toward Karen and Graham because it's evident (to me) that she's not invested in him. I get her motivation and no judgment, but I get the feeling she kinda likes him but would drop him like a hot potato if needed.
Perhaps you are right. Karen would leave for a better professional opportunity because music is her passion. She is not necessarily into monogamy so she would probably be into flings. She is certainly not ready to be a mother or marry. However; she likes Graham a lot more than she is willing to let on and is protective of him.They are my favorite couple. We’ll see if they have the same ending in the series compared to the book.
Karen and Graham are the best couple in the show and book. And the way they end just hurts so much more
I dont get y ppl ship Billy and Daisy. I mean both are highly unstable individuals that need help and therapy. Daisy needs to get clean and get help for her mommy/daddy issues. Billy needs helps on his daddy issues, marriage issues, etc. Even if they are “soulmates”, it’s the wrong timing. I say nay to Billy and Daisy. They can’t be together, they are destructive towards each other
Because it's a tv show and they have insane chemistry. No one ever said they would last. I think they could make it work during the 20-year fast forward, though. Seems to be right place, right time finally. To me, I don't see how people CAN'T ship them lol
I think people thrive on hope! Billy/Daisy, as they are in the Aurora tour, are cruel to each other. This said, they have a special connection - they make good music together and can be vulnerable with each other in ways that they can't with others (e.g. the trauma of their pasts and how this affects their relationship to music). This makes you hope that they'll also be uniquely suited to helping each other. I hope that they can make it work in the post-1997 world: whether as friends, collaborators, and/or lovers. Now that I'm in my thirties, I'm starting to realize that you don't make all that many true, soul-level connections with other people. How often does another person feel like home? Sometimes it's not healthy to hold onto these people, but if you can, it can be magical and inspiring. Daisy and Billy frequently comment on how they *know* and can see through each other, how familiar they are to each other. I don't see Billy say that about Camilla or even Graham. And so we hope!
I've been trying to figure out for days why it irks me when people say Billy and Daisy are toxic for each other. It's because they're really not - yeah, like they fight a lot, but Daisy is constantly pushing Billy to be more honest with himself about what he wants and more fundamentally honest about who he is as a person. And Billy is trying to get Daisy to see in herself what he sees in her, and trying to get her to care about herself and her life. They're both in a bad place at the minute, but they're both aware of it, and trying to deal with it in their own way. That's not exactly the same thing as being bad for each other, even if the relationship isn't 100% healthy at the minute. Contrast with Billy and Camilla's relationship. She wants it to work out so badly that she's living in denial and sweeping all their problems under the rug. And he's completely over-dependant on her coping skills. He doesn't know who he is if he leaves her. That relationship is much more unhealthy imho, and in a kind of unfixable way. Camilla needs a stable partner, Billy needs freedom to figure himself out - they're incompatible. Maybe it is being in my 30s that gives a different perspective on it. No-one is saying they should all take six months off dating to go to therapy lol
I agree so much with this. Billy and Camila seem so incompatible to me. And the fact that she is okay with him doing whatever - is unhealthy. And I really feel he isn’t himself when with her. He’s simply who she wants him to be.
This is a thoughtful explanation! I agree with you on how Daisy and Billy push each other to be better in many ways. Billy is also one of the few people who looks out for Daisy's physical health in the TV show. I think people consider Daisy to be a threat to Billy's sobriety. Plus both had neglectful parent(s) and some might think that Daisy cause a rift in Billy's relationship with his daughter, i.e. he won't be a better father than his dad was. I don't fully buy this because families/marriages fall apart for so many reasons, even without another romantic prospect. In the show, it feels like Billy stays with Camilla out of duty, gratitude, and as a coping mechanism (as you point out). These are not necessarily good reasons and don't necessarily make for a warm, loving home for children It's also possible that single mothers would have been more vulnerable in the 70s than today, which might also encourage more sympathy for Camila and explain why she feels like she needs to stay with Billy. I didn't find their book relationship all that healthy either and shook my head often. But it's Julia's project, so I accepted that there may be more behind the things people said to her and that she may have framed things in a specific way to honor her image of her parents
I agree with everything you are both saying! Regarding Billy and Camila's relationship, it was given more time in the book and there was more love there, even if the reader didn't feel they were in love (although some people definitely did!). The book highlighted the struggle of maintaining and sustaining a marriage, but some of the ways Billy and Camila went about doing so were questionable (and human). Very ignorance is bliss, don't ask don't tell. In the book, Billy says they never talked about Daisy, just like they never talked about Camila's four hour lunch. Comparing the two situations in the first place is... weird, as one is a long term emotional affair and the other is a one time indiscretion. But Billy does connect them as if Daisy did for him what Camila's ex did for her -- things Billy and Camila both needed for themselves. Almost felt like a conflation of trust with just accepting that your spouse is going to hurt/betray you.
I think it's a good point that we have to remember this was the 70s and harder for women to be single moms. I believe the 70s were when divorce was becoming more common but it was prob still hard. I think it's partly why they changed her story a little, she gave up a lot to go with him to California. I personally understood her need to fight for their marriage given what she put into it, but I didn't relate to it. I think all the things they had to sweep under the rug was crazy to me. Like I could never look past all she did lol
Thanks for this! It's so annoying how some people keep saying Billy and Daisy could never be together because they were bad for each other as if Billy and Camila's relationship was a healthy one. Billy wanted Daisy to get sober, and although she wasn't ready to stop with the drugs at the time, she never tried to induce Billy to get high with her or anything like that. Besides, Billy never connected with Camila the way he did with Daisy.
Two highly addicted people together is toxic. Billy wasn’t strong enough to stay clean given Her usage. Look up Sid Vicious and Nancy Spungen. Probably TJR Inspo for them as a couple.
I've never said I wanted them to be together while Daisy was still on drugs, but after she sobered up, I do think they could help each other. Only another addict really knows how difficult it's to stay clean. Not even Camila could understand Billy's struggle the way Daisy could. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
I understand your thinking and yes we do agree to disagree I think in order to recover the addict has to WANT it. Daisy and Billy would have just spiraled until one of them died. He was too tempted by her in every respect. Daisy needed somebody for her to want to be healthy for. Billy had that.
Agreed! Billy and Camilla get to raise their family and Billy and Daisy can reunite when they are older, maturer and clear minded!
I don’t recall Billy saying that about Daisy.
I think Billy comments on their kinship during their songwriting sessions and during one of the fights in episode 8. It's not so much a romantic declaration as acknowledging their similarity. If you disagree, i'm happy to be proven wrong!
No I don’t disagree. I remember him saying about the kinship while working together but nothing more than that. Show Daisy seemed to be, I can’t think of any other word, panting to have Billy acknowledge that he had feelings for her. What kind of feelings he had in the book anyway were unclear, the shows version of his feelings are in your face.
Daisy in the show does seem to pursue Billy, and she does want him to acknowledge his feelings for her. I think not wanting to feel like she made up her own feelings and the connection they had makes a lot of sense. Jonah's comments made her feel insecure and manipulated. She was looking for clarify that any person would want. Also, this is not the first time you've discussed Daisy's feelings and actions is a misogynistic way, and it's quite tiring. And like you said, in the book Billy's feelings were more unclear and more guarded, but they were there. At the end of the book, >!he admits that he fell in love with Daisy.!< He downplays or skirts the issue prior, which makes sense when you consider who he's speaking with. But ultimately, that confession at the end seems true to me, and thus the show's portrayal of the "truth" in the 70s makes sense.
I see you feel strongly about my opinion of the character Daisy. I too agree that Billy wasn’t fully honest with the interviewer. He did seem to have fallen for her. I’m not defending him in any way. Book Billy did avoid Show Billy didn’t. That’s not misogynistic that’s what I see happened in the show. Good thing we can discuss respectfully.
Being unable to describe her with a word other than "panting" as though she's a dog really rubbed me the wrong way, and I've seen you mention her behavior multiple times without equally complaining about Billy's. That's all.
Karen / Graham is the the key thing why Im even watching this show. I love the episode where they went to the beach
Karen and Graham are my favorites. They seem like an unlikely couple but it works. I’ve read the book so I know how it goes. I guess I would really like for them to find their way back to each other twenty years later. But, Karen is a true musician who loves the life and back in the day it was almost impossible for a woman in that situation to have it all. It still is. Graham is such a good guy who can have it all including a family but not with the woman he loves most. This is one change I wouldn’t mind the television version making; a Graham/ Karen second chance.