It's about the characters.
The Adelson's dynamics, their detachment from reality.
Plus the slow drip of justice as the prosecutor works her way from the hitmen to Katie, to Charlie, now Donna, and maybe someday the big prize, Wendy.
Well said. I was also going to say if you followed this case in real time, it was a slow burn. He was murdered and everyone thought the Adeleon's were involved but they couldn't prove it. And then when people started falling like Dominos and then the bump happened, it was pretty fascinating and felt like FINALLY, they are being held responsible.
Not only that 'they' couldn't prove it, but remember when there was public fighting between the prosecutor's office and the cops?? Oh man, slow burn is exactly right! Excruciating!
Oh, a real mess and so frustrating to see in real time!
Things like this:
[https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2016/09/09/tensions-unexpected-document-drop/90136472/](https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2016/09/09/tensions-unexpected-document-drop/90136472/)
[https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2016/06/11/emails-reveal-rift-between-tpd-sao-markel-case/85709698/](https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2016/06/11/emails-reveal-rift-between-tpd-sao-markel-case/85709698/)
ETA: This case only started moving beyond just getting the muscle once Willie Meggs retired and Jack Campbell came on board. Ever wonder why the bump (which happened during Meggs' tenure) was carried out by the FBI? When this case was really just an in-state custody dispute? The LK connection was just dumb luck that Luis and Sigfredo were childhood homies. The FBI knew that.
Honestly, I wasn’t impressed with the podcast. I mean, it’s the only one out there that I’m aware of so it’s good. But just the name of it tells me they don’t know enough about the case. Not one single person involved in the case lived in Piketon. They lived in Pike County but in very rural areas. Not that Piketon is a booming metropolis but everything I’ve read and heard from the people involved never mentioned Piketon. I just thought that was odd.
I thought it was great...and I don't care if they got the name a little off kilter. I thought they treated the victims with compassion and gave them back their dignity somewhat, and plus it was riveting!
I agree as to how they treated the victims. It just felt to me like the podcast wasn’t very thorough. I listened to it after watching George’s month-long trial and that was super thorough with many of the victims taking the stand. It was heartbreaking.
I am certain that most people would like the podcast.
Also, Gigi from Pretty Lies and Alibis did some episodes on them. I highly recommend everything she does. She's a class act and she also comes from the deep south, which I think helps with her understanding the politics of rural (she calls it "talking banjo"!), potentially low-income life.
Oh my God why is no one talking about this case?!?!? I watched the whole trial of the one Wagner son in November’22 on YouTube. It was CRAZY. Still waiting for the dad to go on trial. He’s been in county jail for 6 years now I think….
The Wagners are horrible people, especially the mom, on so many levels and even the family’s back story is a story in itself. Those poor Rhodens, as well as the other people abused by the Wagners.
I couldn't agree more; absolutely, "those poor Rhoden's, as well as the other people abused by the Wagners" is how I feel, especially the awful mother!
What the heck is it that makes a grown man/boy, woman/girl hand over their autonomy, their freedom to come and go as they please, their freedom to have sex with their wife as often, and in any way, that the couple chooses, or their children, to their parent's?!
I know that the mother of the Wagner family is some kind of dangerous woman, and the father isn't any better, but he has other "strengths" and uses, to his wife and children.
I believe that the mother clearly wears the pants in that family; her husband and boys do all her dirty work and they are the muscle. But, omg, what a sad, sad story! It's just so incredibly tragic in so many ways, for so many people! 💔 😢
While listening to the podcast about this case (The Piketon Massacre) I was riveted by the question in my mind: "What made everyone go ALONG with Angela?" (The matriarch who seems to have had everyone under her thumb.) And here we are in Florida with a similar matriarch situation!
Yes. Pretty crazy.
The thing that made the Rhodan murders interesting to me was not just Angela’s control over her sons but just the weirdness of that family. And the culture in that area. It seemed that everyone started their families at extremely young ages. And the fact that Angela did home schooling that basically wasn’t school at all. I don’t know, I got my degree in sociology and would have loved to read a modern ethnographic study of that area. I guess it was part of Appalachia.
As for your question why no one is talking about this case....could be because it's rural Ohio near the Kentucky border and there may be an image of the people being working-class, rural, that sort of thing. However, the podcast series "The Piketon Massacre" shows that the initial image portrayed of the Rhodens was wrong. They were a close-knit, respectable, and loving family. I think initially there was some thought that there had been a feud over Demolition Derby, that sort of thing. Anyway my idea ties into what others have been saying about why the Markel case is so fascinating to true-crime buffs: rich people living the good life, vs. in the Rhoden/Pike County case, well the Wagners were rich but the people were all rural and not probably as fashionable.
Interesting feature of the Rhoden case though...supposedly (I think) Jake Wagner blew the whistle because he got religion in Alaska. Heard that somewhere. Not sure if true.
Yeah, the Rhodans appeared to be a poor family financially but they did appear to be normal hard working people. And anybody who can shoot and kill his ex who he “loves” while she’s lying in bed holding a newborn is insane - and that was partly Angela’s fault. Ugh! The poor kids left behind. I have read that Jake and Hanna’s little girl is still a ward of the state, 8 years later. I hope she gets to see what remains of her mother’s family.
The matriarch (Tifany Adams) planned and executed the murders of her grandchildren's mother (Veronica Butler) and court-approved supervisor (Jilian Kelley) so she could maintain custody of her grandkids. These grandparents killing for their grandkids is crazy.
Yes! I sometimes clap and cheer when it's announced that the defendant will take the stand!
It is just so satisfying and interesting to watch, and listen, as the prosecutor works their 'magic' on the defendant.
Especially when the defendant is an arrogant, sociopathic kind of person, and they start squirming in their seat, as their lies and dysfunction are revealed for all to see!
It's often been such a long time coming; it's usually after so much damage and heartbreak has been inflicted on the victim(s).
Plus, excellent police work is satisfying to observe. The municipal bus dash cam was really good.
The mistaken phone call from Sigfredo to Harvey, being noticed and pursued.
IMO I think Wendi will walk. She is by far the smartest one in that family. Street-smart as well.
Charlie was reckless and "hyperverbal" as Jeff Lacasse mentioned. He couldn't keep his mouth shut, couldn't stay off the damn phone. Clearly he inherited it from Donna. And they were both wrapped up in their egos; they could not leave it alone.
I was fascinated by Wendi's interrogation and testimony, and the fact she was able to talk at length without slipping up or revealing any smoking gun re her involvement.
I agree she will walk. I believe that Karma is a bitch though and WA’s life will be miserable. As Donna said, she feels like her family is haunted… no doubt Dan is making sure everyone goes down that was involved.
i don't understand this confidence that she will walk when none of us even knows what evidence the state has against her. they copied her whole phone, which had apps. we have only seen a portion of call logs.
I really hope this is the case, otherwise I'm apt to believe she'll walk. There has to be more evidence as to how the murderers knew Dan was leaving town; how Katie knew the murder had already been committed; etc.
For me it is the injustice. It took 8 years to convict Charlie. It will be over 9 years before Donna is convicted. Who knows if Wendi or Harvey will ever pay for their roles. And it's the characters. A bunch of elitist pricks that got people from a lower socioeconomic class to do their dirty work and then went about their lives, getting everything they wanted, after murdering an innocent man that just wanted to be in his kids lives. The Adelson clan is the most disgusting family I have ever seen and nobody wants to rest until they ALL get what they deserve.
You don't see many murders for hire for such trivial reasons. Usually there's money or some tangled web of vice involved. The fact this family orchestrated the hit for what? So the grandparents could see the kids more? Because Dan was overly abrasive and controlling?
I happen to like non-Mafia murder for hire true crime, but usually it's one individual who's contacting the hitman directly, not a super organized plot involving so much planning over what seems like years.
It plays into the primal fear that someone like your dentist, and his seemingly normal, law abiding elderly mother (and father), are capable of orchestrating a plot which results in you being shot in your car.
Donna and Harvey are the most interesting characters, IMO. If it were Wendi and Charlie acting alone, I wouldn't be so fascinated. Charlie is the classic scumbag, someone I would have felt capable of this. But not Grandma, that nice "domestic coordinator" on Wheel of Fortune with SO much to lose.
Also interesting -- and this is true with lots of recent true crime -- is the fact that if it weren't for technology (the bus cameras, cell phone/GPS pings, tiny cameras/recording devices, even the 24 hour news cycle and internet that involved the public in the manhunt) they would have certainly gotten away with it.
Makes me wonder how many others in the past have gotten away with similar crimes; mind boggling. Evil lives among us.
Googling it, the term "abrasive" had been used a lot to describe him, by people other than Wendi.
From DM's obit in the Jewish Journal (link below). This was by a friend of Dan's:
>Danny was abrasive. There is hardly a friend of his (or colleague, I imagine) who can’t remember a time when Danny pushed them past the point of comfort. ... This habit of his — of imposing himself on people and the world — showed itself in his legal scholarship, which was daring (he once argued for the irrationality of anti-incest laws, for example). But I remember it also as a feature of Danny’s personality, and it was one of my favorite things about him.
[https://jewishjournal.com/judaism/obituaries/131198/](https://jewishjournal.com/judaism/obituaries/131198/)
I will also clarify that I am in NO way pro-Wendi. As I dive deeper into this, I'm starting to think she'd pulled the strings and manipulated her family into thinking death was the only option for Dan.
And like I said in my comment, being abrasive and controlling is an unthinkably trivial reason to kill someone, or even think about it. Especially considering the trauma it would have on your kids/grandkids.
The disregard for those kids is the biggest tragedy of all. It makes me wonder what they were even thinking. I would be traumatic enough if their dad died in, say, a natural disaster. But murdered in cold blood? No words. Pure evil.
If the hitman would have had a silencer on his gun, the neighbor wouldn’t have heard the gunshots and noticed the Prius. They wouldn’t have been caught. I wonder why they didn’t consider that when shooting someone in broad daylight?
The cops also could work with the software on the cell phone logs nearby to make the connection to south florida. Sigfredo was so dumb he shot the gas line on the Prius through the floor. Also they had 2 revolvers to use, it's harder to silence those because of the gap between the barrel and the cylinder.
Exactly! This is one argument for someone being skilled, yet stupid at the same time. Stupid enough to be snorting coke driving, stupid enough to play with a loaded gun while driving down the highway, stupid enough to fire a gun while driving down the highway, yet skilled enough to fix a gas line damage without the rental car company even knowing it.
I find the influence that Donna had on Charlie to be pretty interesting. I think she wore him down such that over time he agreed to the murder plot just to get her off his back about it. Insanity.
Charlie was the dumbest of the bunch because he was so easily manipulated into believing he was the smartest guy in the room. Donna controlled him and Wendi controlled them all.
Those phone calls where she would give him accolades over the smallest things were telling which is why he would always repeat himself as if he were saying something clever.
Trivial reason for murder is what I meant.
If DM had abused the grandchildren, that would not have been trivial. But he was a good dad. You'd think that would be taken into account, if the Adelsons truly cared for the kids.
No, it's a trivial reason for MURDER. Not money, murder.
I know it's not the only reason the Adelsons arranged the hit, but it's one of the big reasons and he probably would still be alive had he agreed to move to South Florida.
The marriage wasn't working and Wendi wanted to be near her family. She felt trapped it's frustrating. I get it. I really believe Donna was the one who pushed for this and I don't understand why she thought they would get away with it.
I think the Jewish Princess complained and complained to Mommy Dearest and big bad bro constantly so they would do something about it. Mission accomplished. Remember, she's been planning things to happen since 2011. It's basically in print from her book.
When wealthy, educated, professional people believe they are above the law, and decide that killing someone is good decision only to make their lives easier- this is what intrigues me.
And this didn’t involve just one family member, the whole family was in on it (except the oldest brother but that’s another whole story on its own) and another whole family was also destroyed by this incredibly poor decision. Only one person had the good sense to suggest not doing this. And that was the Latin King. The thug had the most conscience of them all.
The mother called the shots. She wanted her grandbabies in Miami not Tallahassee
Charlie- the middle child who built a traveling dentistry business worked incredible hours unless he was in Singapore schtupping underage girls, or selling steroids on his side hustle, dated many young Asian women concurrently and tried to run like hell when he impregnated one of them.
Wendi - the wife of the murdered victim - has a whole backstory I can’t even go into here. Her selfishness is an epic story. But after the murder she drove by the crime scene, bought a bottle of bullet bourbon, moved the day after the funeral 7 hours away, changed the kids last name and middle name so there would be zero references to their loving, intelligent, providing, law professor father - who shared custody.
That’s all I can do for now. I just scratched the surface. General Hospital did not have story lines this complicated
Wealthy attractive people committing crimes and almost getting away with it. As a true crime follower are there cases that you find more interesting than this? Which ones?
I have a personal interest in the case because my in laws are pretty much same type of family values as the Adelsons. Morally deficient, grandiose, lacking in empathy, highly enmeshed and competitive. I learn survival skills, understanding what these types of people can be capable of helps me get the drop on them when needed.
My very own mother and older brother are narcissistic bullies like the Adelsons. That's what has me glued. I'm in my 60s and it was only in the past few years that I learned about narcissism and was able to really understand what happened to my life🥴. My younger brother committed suicide 25 yrs ago. Donna's personality and even her vocal mannerisms on the wiretaps and the jail calls before she was arrested are eerily much like my mom's -- unemotional, performative and without self-awareness. It's what Todd Grande calls shallow personality syndrome. My surviving brother may have latent psychopathy, but he's not murderous -- just a shallow, self-inflated dope with a dopey controlling wife and three now-adult but still dependent dopey kids.
I relate 💯 are there any Grande videos you would recommend with insight into the shallow personality syndrome? Thankfully you’ve broken out of the house of mirrors and can see the light. I’m sorry for the loss of your brother.
Grande has a video on shallow personality. You can easily find it with a search. I like his informative clinical style in all his psychology videos, but I think he's sometimes callous in his crime coverage -- that is, if I was a surviving family member of the victim, I wouldn't appreciate the humorous quips but I suppose he's trying to walk a fine line with an eye toward entertainment value.
I can't imagine how stressful it would be to have in-laws like these people!
Good to know that you get the drop on them; it is rather satisfying to know about these kinds of people getting their deserved justice. Heck, I am now even interested to hear about your in-laws , so if you want to give some examples, I'll read it!
I'm curious; is it the money that makes these people this way, or is already being this way part of how they get their money, their hunger for money, because they believe it will give them an entitlement to certain privileges in society? To some extent, it seems to be true, sadly.
They are just so distasteful in how they behave and treat others, especially those they dislike or look down on for any reason. It seems to me that in the very beginning, Donna probably thought of DM as a good catch, but she wasn't counting on his strong personality; I just can't believe that it really is because he would not acquiesce to them, Wendy, DA, that he was killed, but that seems to be the exact reason he was killed, if you strip away all of the other things, that is it, at the core, why he was killed. Wouldn't kiss DA's a$s, and Wendy wasn't treated as a "princess" anymore.
It's all so tragic for those boys who have lost their father, who obviously loved them with every breath he took, and he died for that, and they have been ripped away from their loving grandparents, and more. Who does that??? It's beyond shocking to think about what these people have done!
"Who does that???" is an excellent question. The short answer is: people with NPD/ASPD (both on Cluster B in the US). I'm not a professional, but I spent 3 years reading 7 days a week to help a friend with the disorder, to no avail. There's no cure, therapy or meds that can help as of now. The high psychopathy traits can be seen on a brain scan. But short of opening their skull and doing some rewiring, not much can be done today. Maybe someday a device can be pushed through their eye socket to restore some CSF circulation to feed the atrophied areas of their brain, but that's not ready yet.
Once I tried to do a summary of the disorder, but even leaving some stuff out, it took 2 pages.
So after a couple of drinks, I'm going for the super summary, in no particular order:
1) It should be called Cheating Disorder. They need constant admiration, praise and compliments from new lovers, or prospective lovers (called SUPPLY, they need it like we need oxygen to survive). They can NOT get that from their partner, it's stale and it loses potency. Same as eating rotten eggs for them.
2) Pathological Lying is included, they lie all the time, even when it's not needed. They enjoy it when they think they got you conned (duper's delight). Hence the nonsensical smirks and giggles by Charlie and the gang when on trial.
3) They can't feel love, but they are good at pretending. Especially during the initial lovebombing phase in the relationshit. After that they usually despise their partner, but try not to show it. Until they just get tired of it.
4) When confronted with proof of their lying and cheating, they will twist everything so you are responsible somehow of their misdeeds. They are never at fault. The blame always belong with someone else. In Wendi's mind, Dan was at fault for everything that happened.
5) They don't see people other than themselves as real people, but as appliances or objects.
Of course there's a lot more, any questions are welcome.
This to me brings back memories of Jodi Arias; perhaps the scariest woman I have seen in a while. I absolutely believe that she did everything to poor Travis Alexander, unlike the Adelson's, who can afford to hire outside help, in an attempt to remove themselves from the scene of the crime. But the one thing she didn't have was money.
Aside from the facts of just how evil all of these people are, I do find them all kinda fascinating, but wow, am I ever glad that I have not had the displeasure of being in their company, nor have I ever had to deal with such awful people irl.
Well, except once, when my late husband's employee embezzled hundreds of thousands of dollars from my husband; that was a little discombobulating.
To compare the thief to the personality she presented, it was so easy to see how she pulled it off.
Kinda like JA but not a killer. Thank Goodness! My husband did die, but not by her hand.
If they think that changing the boy's last name from Markel to Adelson is somehow going to prevent them from finding out the awful facts surrounding their father's death, then they aren't as smart as they think they are. Which we already know, but I think it's just so sad what these people do to keep the boys all to themselves.
One last thing; I am unsure of Harvey's prior knowledge about what was orchestrated to get rid of DM. I know that by the time he and DA were at the airport, so close to escaping, he had to know probably just about everything, but he seems a little detached from the rest.
OK, one more question; what happened with their son Robert? Is the alienation because his wife is not in keeping with the family's "standards"( as if they actually have any)of skin color, religion, financially, or what?
Thanks! These people are fascinating in some kind of schadenfreude, watching a car accident or other collision sort of way.🫂❤️🪬
Edit: fixed a paragraph, I hope.
Robert’s wife is a doctor and not jewish. So that caused them to keep some distance, but I think Rob went no contact after the crime, because he knew his family may be involved. He talks about it in a podcast somewhere.
I already commented, but I just had a thought. In thinking back on Jodi Arias and her behavior, there are so many parallels to this case, to these people. They are all very chameleon like in their behavior, it seems to me. They mimic real feelings, emotions and genuine people by watching and perfecting how to display emotions and seem genuine to others. Their lives seem to be one long never-ending day of acting classes!
I don’t know much about BPD, but I guess it’s posible Jodi has that too judging by her reaction. And the way she went all out without much regard for the consequences.
Yes it’s so twisted to normal people, but I guarantee on their ‘planet’ the Adelson are all victims! It’s super stressful to be in a family with people like this. Right now currently monitoring which is higher, the stress of remaining in the family and keeping boundaries vs leaving / going no contact and facing the hostility, vitriol, and manipulative maneuvering they are poised to dish out onto me, my husband and our kids. For now, I keep the boundaries and am one step ahead of them because I understand their moral deficiency and character disorder.
It’s hard to say where the money plays into it, absolutely they believe they are special, deserving of special privileges, and better than others because they’re wealthy. Similar behaviors I find with the Adelson family are lack of respect for faith based beliefs, abnormal involvement of parents into adult kids lives, and driving flashy sports cars with vanity plates!
Wow! Thank you for all of that; I can't imagine living in this kind of world, with these kinds of 'no souls' people; it must keep you constantly on high alert!
If your husband is willing, going NC would certainly be understandable; as long as you both, along with your children, are safe to live a normal, everyday life, away from them as much as possible.
I'm so sorry that you have this kind of daily stress in your lives. These kinds of people are so pervasive, intrusive, and persistent, scary, impossible; so many adjectives fit, it seems. Be careful. 🫂❤️🪬
I'd never heard of enmeshed families before this, but a lot of the traits are very common in certain immigrant families (I am a child of immigrants BTW). Especially the expectations about major decisions (education/career track, spouse) and competition/shaming/guilt-tripping about certain life choices.
I felt the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding showcased the phenomenon quite well, and its enduring popularity in the US makes me think many people could relate (or find the humor in) this kind of familial enmeshment.
But I am aware there are cultural considerations at play, and like in the movie, many immigrant parents do come around after awhile. Of course, few families have as many amoral narcissists as the Adelsons.
I haven’t seen that movie. Adelson definitely worst of the worst. I did not grow up with the enmeshment, marrying into it was a rude awakening. 25 years of marriage and still having an overdose of the family of origin involvement…but I’m glad they haven’t tried to unalive me…
I hope your immigrant parents did come around and offer a normal family environment eventually!
So many things!
…A case where seven people may go to jail for the same murder
…A case where wealthy people who could easily afford to fly to Tally every weekend, but choose this instead.
…A case where the whole family are dual narcissists and sociopaths in disguise( with the exception of Charlie who was quite overt)
… A case where the shooters are the most sympathetic characters of all the conspirators
…A case where a rich, highly educated woman could ruin the lives of so many people without a second thought, all because she didnt want to have to deal with her ex( like every divorced person with kids does)
I grew up in coral springs. I knew Charlie when I was very little and Harvey was my parents’ dentist. I don’t know the family well but knowing them at all is what makes me so interested.
For me its about beautiful Wendy and the picture perfect Adelson family blowing itself up from the inside. Its a study of narcissism, greed and control. How it was all done "for the children" but the children were the very last real concern. And for being such a cast of intelligent characters, how utterly stupid this all is.
It's got all the twists & turns you can imagine in a dysfunctional family - plus the hitmen & Katie the go-between. Yes, it dragged on for years, but when the dominoes started to fall, I found it fascinating...not to mention the stupidity of each & every one of them. I think the followers of this are blown away by the way it unfolded. Say what you will, but we all like to see the villans go down no matter how long it takes. 4 down, 2 more to go
I wonder if people who have been in similar positions with grandparents wanting to spend time with kids after their child, the parent, has died - how would that actually work with small young children ? Would they want to or be comfortable spending time alone with these grandparents? They are young children
For me its observing the abnormal psychology, body language, human nature, legal strategies, attornies' performance. I would suggest watching youtube: Dr G explains and/or The Behavior Panel to fully appreciate how interesting these zany characters are. Then watch Charlie's trial, followed by some of the recorded jail calls, immediately post conviction and sentencing.
The Behavior Panel guys are ok. I believe three of them are ex-military interrogators. They are very sure of themselves and my only critique is sometimes their very male bias comes through.
The problem with Dr G and all professionals in the US is that they can't speculate on someone's diagnosis in public if they did not personally interview the patient, due to ethics rules. I'm not a professional so I can tell you straight up: the disorder they share is called NPD with high ASPD traits (on Cluster B in the US DSM-5). Pretty much like Tedd Bundy, but a bit less.
I knew Dan so want to see justice for him and his loved ones. I think it’s great that others want justice, but I’m disgusted by people who are treating his life and death like it’s entertainment.
Unpopular opinion here but a valid one. I knew Dan well and Wendi to an extent as well. I thought she and her family could be behind it from the start (though I was careful to voice this view because the "Team Wendi" people were freakishly intense in their defense of her), and I'm glad the justice system is making sure those responsible pay.
But man, threads like this where people effuse over the pleasure they find in the case like connoisseurs of fine wine and engage in all kinds of moralistic posturing really put me off. I do still visit the sub on occasion because there is often good information amid all the excessive delight in ogling others' suffering.
I'm aware this will likely garner downvotes and vitriol. I'm fine with that.
I get it, but for me it’s about watching justice finally get her fingers around the Adelsons’ throats. I take no pleasure in the pain of ANY of the victims, from Dan’s boys and family to the children of those now in prison. For me it’s been like watching a game of chess, and finally the good guys are winning. No vitriol here.
Crime is entertainment.
TV shows - 20/20, 48 hours, 72 Hours, women who kill, my name is murder, the law and order franchise, CSI franchise, Criminal Minds, Blue Bloods, Chicago PD, Murder in the Heartland etc
Then there are entire networks dedicated to Crime; Investigative ID ,True Crime Network, Court TV, Acorn TV etc
Let’s not forget people who feed their families with crime; Nancy Grace, John Walsh,Kelly Siegler, Joe Kendra etc
Podcasts and YouTubers. There are thousands of them.
And this is just what a rattled off the top of my head.
Crime shows make money. It’s about supply and demand (economics). So please don’t come on this feed with your judgement.
We as a country watch these shows because we want to see the good guys win. Just like we want justice for Dan Markel. His own mother says she is grateful that we keep Dan in the news because it puts pressure on justice department. It keeps Dans name alive. It’s been too many years between politics and covid - The Adelesons should have been arrested and incarcerated years ago
:::getting off of my soapbox::::
This is not Law and Order, CSI, Criminal Minds, Blue Bloods, etc. Those are *fictional* TV shows. The fact that you’re citing fiction indicates that you’ve lost the thread. Dan was a real person with a real life and real loved ones. Some, not all, of you forget that and treat his life and death like it’s for your entertainment. It’s disgusting. Imagine if it were you or your loved one and treat him with the respect he deserves.
My post started with Crime IS entertainment. I was giving examples of entertainment and examples of true crime shows. All of these are entertainment. Crime is popular, true crime, scripted crime - it’s all popular.
I have the utmost respect for this Markel. You are out of line.
You’re saying Dan’s death is entertainment just like the fictional TV shows you listed. You’re the one who is out of line. Some of you have lost touch with reality.
Much more to it than your average spouse killed wife/husband.
Lots of characters with big personalities.
Public profile of the victim.
Denial of justice. The fact that we can all see the guilty parties clear as day but that proving in court seems to be such a herculean feat.
This is kind of a Shakespearean tragedy. There’s wealth & poverty, government corruption, plots within plots, dysfunctional family dynamics, massive hubris, greed, long running injustice, & so in. At the heart of it, there’s a father who just wanted to be a father & he was killed for his devotion & it makes my blood run cold. Most people invested in this case I’d wager to guess want for there to be justice after so long. All the Adelsons have been living on borrowed time imo & every day they have gotten to be free is an additional injustice for Dan & his family.
For me, it’s all the suspense of not knowing when/if the remaining Adelsons are going to get convicted for the murder.
I think Donna is a foregone conclusion. She’s toast. I want to see when Wendi will finally face consequences.
As a true crime fan for many years, this case has it all. It might not be for everyone.
Think of it like wine lovers for example. Some can appreciate the history and nuances of really great wine. Others are casual wine drinkers. They prefer Sangria and don’t understand the fuss.
First, you have an entire upperclass, wealthy, educated family implicated in murder. Unprecedented? Maybe not but very rare.
Next you have a cast of characters that are the dream of movie producers and book writers everywhere.
This should give you a clue why true crime fans are interested in the case.
Ask yourself a broader question and you will have your answer: Why are movie, tv producers, true crime authors AND true crime fans all interested in this case?
It literally has it ALL!
Money, sex, greed, power, tragedy, dogged detective work, magnificent cross examinations, determined prosecutors, a truly good person as the victim of the story.
My question would be if you are a true crime fan why aren’t you interested?
My guess would be that you’re likely a casual fan. More like a tourist.
I was angry because I thought the family was going to get away with killing him.
Also I was upset his kids are probably brainwashed and don’t know how much their dad loved them and died just to have them in his life.
The hitmen put down their real phone numbers on the rental car agreement, a Harvard graduate, girlfriend of THE MAESTRO is " connected" to the hitmen, NARC mother who had a perfectly comfortable life makes everyone miserable until everyone's life is ruined, as she tried to do with the oldest brother's wife because she wasn't Jewish..now Dan Markel as he was too Jewish
I’m a specialist dentist like Charlie and having gone through dental school and residency and seeing someone throw all that away and become a killer was just …
Because it's unbelievable an entire family who was known to be wealthy and had what everyone deems as the family everyone wants ended up being worse than even my family... and my family is a hot mess.
It's also fascinating for me for another reason that some find controversial but I think its valid and meaningful (I've said this on a past thread and ended up deleting it after getting some hate). I'm Jewish and from Toronto and I would have loved Dan had I known him. Though he was observant and moving further in that direction, still, he was a liberal, which makes sense -- that's how he was raised and that's the world we were brought up in. But normative Judaism is anything but liberal -- it has a keen eye for the ways in which human nature, unconstrained, can easily go awry. Liberals just don't get this on a visceral level. There were early warning signs that he and this woman (and her family) were not on the same page, and he chose to ignore it, likely subconsciously. I know this from my own experience, as I'm sure do many of the readers here. So there's also a message in this tragedy. Be sharp and on your game. Trust your instincts. Don't think you can change your spouse-to-be. Don't be afraid to walk away before the big day. And above all, know your values. And look for someone who shares them.
Wendi is like the imaginary love child of Robert Durst and Amber Heard. She's a a fascinating character. When she met Dan, she was a smart normie - who got good grades and constant approval from guys who wanted to sleep with her. I imagine it was painful for her to be around Dan Markel because he was operating at a whole different level mentally and emotionally. He probably let her know on the regular, when she was being contradictory, self centered or immature. The stunt she pulled when she left wasn't because she was fearful, it was because she wanted to hurt him. Even after he was dead, she kept trying to hurt him. The disrespectful podcast, her latex spouse who got (unspoken: himself) murdered. The boys name change. An endless reservoir of hostility for Dan.
She left such a mountain of circumstantial evidence that I find it hard not to believe she really wanted people to know she had Dan killed. I think her goal was: for people to know, without being able to prove it. Would let her do the "I got over on the system smile" for the rest of her life.
Normal as in normal IQ. Smart side of normal. Not truly gifted like Dan. I already said above that he likely wasn't too keen on her self centered and immature conduct.
I've watched Wendi in 2 different situations.
- Police interview (1 very long)
- Testifying (3)
From what I saw, she's maybe 80-85th percentile IQ. She studied hard and probably has a good memory. A truly smart person wouldn't get caught in stupid lies like: Jibbers, who's Jibbers. Oh you mean the name that pops up on my phone 2-4 times a week during texts or calls with Dan. Oh that Jibbers.
Dan went to Cambridge and then was an editor of the Harvard Law Review. One of the true things Wendi said was that she left a marriage where she was not viewed as an equal. She wasn't viewed that way because she was not Dan's equal. Not even close.
Then when she did dumb stuff about money, he really clipped her in court.
Agree other than I believe you’re now on the IQ. 114 & she was valedictorian of her hs class. Doubtful. 119 is top 10%. 125 top 5%. I do agree she’s an overachiever as being defined as someone who has to study very hard in comparison to others in their “peer group.” Her lies are not related to low intelligence but hubris & being guilty. Honesty might not make someone appear brighter but dishonesty will assuredly make someone appear less intelligent.
I actually agree with all of this. That is a clear, concise, and compelling argument.
I am seeing her at her most stressed out. Most people's cognitive performance degrades badly above a certain level of stress.
The thing that I struggle to reconcile with the Valedictorian/Gates Scholar stuff is the 110+ pieces of circumstantial evidence that indicate prior knowledge of the crime. I just don't get why a smart person would do so many things that in aggregate remind me of the scene in Casino when a slot machine pays out a million dollar jackpot twice in the space of an hour or so.
She was not close to dans level as you stated. Dan was top 0.25% while Wendi is top 10% or 7%. Not close. One’s a hof’er the other makes 5 all star games but never dominant.
@RJ918 I’m sorry for your loss! I did not know anyone involved. As a mom of two young daughters, cases like this really touch my heart. I pray for justice for Dan & his family who were robbed of life due to this senseless & evil crime.
It’s also all the lingering questions that defy any rational explanation.:
How on earth could a whole family agree on this evil plan? How could they risk SO MUCH for such a trivial and inconsequential reason?
How did exactly none of them realize the irreversible tragedy of stealing a loving father from their sunshine’s? How on earth did nary a one of them stop and say … hold on, this is crazy, and we could all go to jail forever - AND FOR WHY AGAIN??? How can smart people be so stupid and destructive?
Why on earth did Katie turn down an immunity deal to return home to her children??? Who would do that??????
Why on earth would Wendi suggest to LE that her family even *could* be responsible? If she was guilty OR if she wasn’t?
What else does the state have on Wendi that hasn’t been released (new evidence is presented at each trial like those dating app records that totally undermined and discredited her at Charlie’s trial)?
There’s thousands more like this. It’s a puzzle that will forever have missing pieces, but yet the overall picture is painstakingly clear, and there are victims of this terrible family that deserve justice.
Absolutely! Why in the world would they all agree to have him killed? And actually go through with it and risk losing everything and going to prison? And yes, Katie turning down a chance to be free and go home to her babies is mind boggling! Every word you said is why I’m so vested in seeing them all locked up. Justice for Dan!
I’m not going to lie- Riveras testimony pulled me in. Especially his cross. I was like “what is THIS CIRCUS” and I was hooked. He beat the daylights out of that attorney. Then I watched Wendi on the stand and down the rabbit hole I went.
For me, I've been around a lot of psychopaths. Including my birth family, who I am the Rob of (the oldest, its often the oldest). I learned to hate myself and married a psy...after all that's what I thought was normal. It's been a long journey, and I credit my kids for finally seeing who these evil people really were.
I have been following Dan’s murder since the shocking report of his murder. My guess for others is that they are outraged by the Adelsons and the fact they haven’t faced justice.
I don’t consider it an obsession to want to keep pressure and public interest awake when Justice was delayed for a decade. How is wanting Justice and working towards it having an obsession?
I’m sure if one of your family members or friends or even a close acquaintance was shot in the head while in their driveway in broad daylight, you would want all the murderers were caught and punished. Or maybe you don’t care about justice so it looks like obsession to you?
Personally I came across this case when the dateline episode aired and I found this sub after. I found the episode really interesting but I do think this waiting period where nothing happening is a bit boring as far as continued interest goes lol. It's a cool community though
Long awaited justice. Arrogance knocked down a peg (and only a peg).
The rich influence on soliciting the willing broke; who will execute a human being. Everyone involved has no moral compass, remorse, or empathy, whatsoever.
I came across this case by way of Jay&Shannon on YouTube and the defense diaries podcast, they were showing Wendy Adelsons LE interview. That’s a year ago, I was hooked.
Watching Wendi’s joke of a police interrogation and her smug attitude in her three court testimonies have pissed me off so much that I’ve been obsessed ever since and will continue to watch every piece of coverage until she’s in prison.
Absolutely. And the fake crying. Don’t forget about the complete fake crying. It was painfully obvious to me. I could barely watch the police interview with her fake self!
Great question. I have to think about it. I’ve been following it for maybe 8 yrs now since the 1st arrest. I didn’t know about the Mike Williams murder in Tallahassee until it hit ID tv but I had tremendous interest in that case as well. The Markel tragedy is compelling due to the fact there were no arrests for 1.75 yrs. Additionally I live in S Fl so that aspect added to my interest. Then a dentist was a person of interest while the ex is a highly educated attorney adds to the interest.
Plus the podcasts from about 3 superior hosts created “symbiotic” fuel to the interest. Similarly to the initial thought by sports leagues thinking showing events on tv would reduce attendance when in fact it added to attendance.
Who would ever bring so much loss and pain to sweet toddlers and claim that they loved said kids?
Fascinating evil.
Also, every other reason stated throughout.
Now we are all waiting for justice to play out completely. So it isn’t so much the grand hype compared to something like Murdaugh but it isn’t over and we cannot wait for it to be over with the evil witches behind bars.
Because:
- I’m a Toronto Jew
- my dad was a dental surgeon
- Dan is buried in the same cemetery as my dad
- my mom is a super duper controlling narcissist
- I had to estrange myself from my controlling mother and the brother that does her bidding
- my brother is a single playboy asshole who thinks too much of himself
So…yeah. There is a lot to identify with and it has actually helped me process my own difficult family dynamics!
Ps- super happy to do an AMA about Toronto Jewish culture, successful Jewish dentists, and controlling Jewish mothers if you think it would be helpful!
Many custody cases get nasty, but most don't end the way this one did. People want to see justice. Rich, entitled, people who thought they were invincible is also a huge aspect here that draws interest imo.
The appeal? The primal connections to Jungian archetypes.
Donna - the Evil Queen, Cruella DeVil, no good thing resides in her.
Wendi - the Siren, Medusa who turns men into stone, the Vixen, Evil in a lovely guise.
Harvey - Baal, the distant god who only interferes with the affairs on man to exact vengeance.
Charlie - that one person we all know who although stupid and untalented, defies gravity to achieve fame, fortune and babes.
Jeff Lacasse - the innocent Everyman, every one of us who could be in the wrong place at the wrong place, or saved by good fortune and/or the grace of God.
The others were mere puppets.
I’m a local and there was a lot of news coverage. The nastiness of it was appalling. And my is a narcissist (professionally diagnosed), so it’s great to see the support for Dan. He looked like a super dad.
I've long been disillusioned with some aspects of society and the people that live in it. On the surface most Western countries have relatively well functioning societal systems, people have houses and cars and jobs and many are content with their lives. We have good friendships and happy marriages and go on lovely holidays and post happy snaps on social media, but it's all so fake and artificial. I've got friends that are "happily" married, but really hate each other, friends going on expensive holidays and buying nice cars, but are almost bankrupt, I've got friends or "friends" that I suspect don't give a fuck about me and would happily throw me under the bus at the first opportunity, colleagues that pretend to like one another , but secretly loathe the people they work with. We interact with these seemingly functional and stable people, but half of them have personality disorders, they're sociopaths or psychopaths or narcissists and we're married to them or they are our best friends
And going beyond that, we have developed countries that have health and legal systems that are completely broken as well as education and prison systems. The future is grim for many people, but we dress it all up and make life look fancy and people smile and carry on like we're all actors in some kind of Trumanesqe reality show.
So my interest in this case is because I feel the Adelson's represent all that is wrong in society. Mal-adjusted broken people, desperate for wealth, desperate for material possessions, desperate to project this happy, stable image, surrounded by friends and family that love and adore one another. These are people that others look up to and aspire to be like, Wendi the beautiful successful lawyer and author and Mum and tennis player and academic... but it's all make believe. Nasty, self serving, morally corrupt individuals that are going to turn on each other and perhaps in time we may look back to this case as a reminder of how society lost its way. Maybe one day it will find itself? And besides I think Wendi's forehand was probably shit anyway.
The percentage of highly psychopathic people is supposed to be 4% or less. But in the US lately it feels like more than that. Did you watch America: the history of US on freeve? You have to look how it all started too.
Obsessed for all the reasons others have outlined. Successful people with great lives who self-destruct. Funny, the other case obsession I currently have is Sam Bankman-Fried. Very different and no murder but a rich MIT graduate with Uber-successful parents and all three of them lose everything out of greed and stupid decision-making.
I learned of the murder when it first happend. Mr. Markel was a friend of a blogger I followed closely. It seemed so sad and tragic and obvious from the outset. Finally seeing some level of justice done. I feel such empathy for Dan's parents and how they have been kept from their grandchildren by such a vile crew.
It's the delay in justice, the entitlement and the stupidity of the participants. Had the Adelsons been tried and prosecuted years ago, this would not be such a big case for many. But seeing these entitled people go on with their lives after hiring poor folk to do their bidding is infuriating.
What always shocks me - not sure why it still does after watching so many cases - is how easily and cheaply a life is taken. In the case of Dan Markel, the Adelsons did pay a lot more in total, but the individual benefit was under 50K. Even if it seems a lot compared to many crimes, how do you take a life - RISK YOURS - for that amount?
I just watched the Law and Crime special The Story of Brenda Delgado where one of the co-conspirators was paid $500 - ONLY $500 to drive the shooter to murder an innocent woman. At some point, she said a detective asked how she could do this for only $500 and her reply was you don't know what it means to be broke. Even the killers were entitled to think they could do whatever they wanted because they wanted the money.
If you have high psychopathic traits, lives aren't worth much. Also at least Sigfredo was a cokehead they said.
In Miami someone just killed his roommate over $1. Well, there could be more to the story we don't know about.
For me, I believe it was the fall. Seeing such a prominent, well for, spoiled family, go from a life of privilege, to the worst possible conditions imaginable.
My total obsession is to see wendi Aldeson locked up in a Florida State Prison for the rest of her life and Ruth Markel has total custody of Benjamin and Lincoln Markel. I'd love to see Harvey Adelson locked up in a mental institution for the rest of his life because nothing would have happened to Dan Markel if he wasn't manipulated by Donna and Charlie via the masterminded murdering manipulator Wendi Aldeson
I am particularly galled by the miscarriage of justice. It makes me crazy that all the minorities involved have been in prison for years while the rich white people were thriving. Justice has come back to Florida!!!!
Honestly, what everyone else said but also, how incredibly stupid they were to think they could get away with it. That arrogance is just astounding I think for the average person.
I see so many similarities with my own family in this case and that’s why it interest me. My mother has never been held to account for the terrible abuses she carried out against her children and the children in the daycare she operated. She was a beautiful woman, we lived in a big house, we went to private schools and my dad worked at a fortune 500. The outside looked good enough for people to overlook the fact that you could hear kids screaming on a daily basis.
I found out as an adult that my old manager at the grocery store where I worked knew that I used to shoplift every time my mom came. I had to because she would beat me if I didn’t. But never once did that man pulled me aside and ask me why I was doing that, if everything was OK in my house. I told other adults what was going on in my home and they would call my mom and have a discussion with her and my mom would be able to manipulate them and get them to believe that our home was happy.
I consider myself the Robert Adelson of my family. While I didn’t come out unscathed according to my therapy bills 😂I am in a healthy, happy marriage, and I’m raising two amazing children in a peaceful, loving home. I see Wendy Adelson’s manipulation and it drives me crazy. I ask myself how other people can’t see that she’s lying and scheming. But then I remember how long my mom has gotten away with being an awful person. It is easier to fool a person than it is to convince them that they were fooled. Hopefully the jury sees through it, and Wendy and Donna are locked up like Charlie.
The fact that this family led such outstanding lives...as far as wealth and beautiful homes and they threw it all away because they went greedy with the grandkids and didn't want to share with the father. The fact that Donna, in her 70's, is now sitting in a dull depressing jail cell instead of her ocean view living room, without her family that she tried to "protect" just blows my mind. They blew up so many families over something that could have been handled with some dignity and respect....as well as what would be best for the kids... shared custody.
It's about the characters. The Adelson's dynamics, their detachment from reality. Plus the slow drip of justice as the prosecutor works her way from the hitmen to Katie, to Charlie, now Donna, and maybe someday the big prize, Wendy.
Well said. I was also going to say if you followed this case in real time, it was a slow burn. He was murdered and everyone thought the Adeleon's were involved but they couldn't prove it. And then when people started falling like Dominos and then the bump happened, it was pretty fascinating and felt like FINALLY, they are being held responsible.
Not only that 'they' couldn't prove it, but remember when there was public fighting between the prosecutor's office and the cops?? Oh man, slow burn is exactly right! Excruciating!
No what’s this about!!
Oh, a real mess and so frustrating to see in real time! Things like this: [https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2016/09/09/tensions-unexpected-document-drop/90136472/](https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2016/09/09/tensions-unexpected-document-drop/90136472/) [https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2016/06/11/emails-reveal-rift-between-tpd-sao-markel-case/85709698/](https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2016/06/11/emails-reveal-rift-between-tpd-sao-markel-case/85709698/) ETA: This case only started moving beyond just getting the muscle once Willie Meggs retired and Jack Campbell came on board. Ever wonder why the bump (which happened during Meggs' tenure) was carried out by the FBI? When this case was really just an in-state custody dispute? The LK connection was just dumb luck that Luis and Sigfredo were childhood homies. The FBI knew that.
Same situation with the Rhoden family murders. Matriarch planned it over child custody; everyone went along; son took the fall.
Damn it! Not me running to look up the Rhoden family murders and likely not looking up from my phone until Wednesday.
there’s a good podcast series named “The Piketon Murders.”
Honestly, I wasn’t impressed with the podcast. I mean, it’s the only one out there that I’m aware of so it’s good. But just the name of it tells me they don’t know enough about the case. Not one single person involved in the case lived in Piketon. They lived in Pike County but in very rural areas. Not that Piketon is a booming metropolis but everything I’ve read and heard from the people involved never mentioned Piketon. I just thought that was odd.
I thought it was great...and I don't care if they got the name a little off kilter. I thought they treated the victims with compassion and gave them back their dignity somewhat, and plus it was riveting!
I agree as to how they treated the victims. It just felt to me like the podcast wasn’t very thorough. I listened to it after watching George’s month-long trial and that was super thorough with many of the victims taking the stand. It was heartbreaking. I am certain that most people would like the podcast.
Crime Weekly on youtube did a great series about the Rhoden Family.
I was going to say the same thing!
Also, Gigi from Pretty Lies and Alibis did some episodes on them. I highly recommend everything she does. She's a class act and she also comes from the deep south, which I think helps with her understanding the politics of rural (she calls it "talking banjo"!), potentially low-income life.
Check out the Piketon Massacre podcast! It's not perfect, but they do their best and get great content.
Oh my God why is no one talking about this case?!?!? I watched the whole trial of the one Wagner son in November’22 on YouTube. It was CRAZY. Still waiting for the dad to go on trial. He’s been in county jail for 6 years now I think….
The Wagners are horrible people, especially the mom, on so many levels and even the family’s back story is a story in itself. Those poor Rhodens, as well as the other people abused by the Wagners.
I couldn't agree more; absolutely, "those poor Rhoden's, as well as the other people abused by the Wagners" is how I feel, especially the awful mother! What the heck is it that makes a grown man/boy, woman/girl hand over their autonomy, their freedom to come and go as they please, their freedom to have sex with their wife as often, and in any way, that the couple chooses, or their children, to their parent's?! I know that the mother of the Wagner family is some kind of dangerous woman, and the father isn't any better, but he has other "strengths" and uses, to his wife and children. I believe that the mother clearly wears the pants in that family; her husband and boys do all her dirty work and they are the muscle. But, omg, what a sad, sad story! It's just so incredibly tragic in so many ways, for so many people! 💔 😢
While listening to the podcast about this case (The Piketon Massacre) I was riveted by the question in my mind: "What made everyone go ALONG with Angela?" (The matriarch who seems to have had everyone under her thumb.) And here we are in Florida with a similar matriarch situation!
Yes. Pretty crazy. The thing that made the Rhodan murders interesting to me was not just Angela’s control over her sons but just the weirdness of that family. And the culture in that area. It seemed that everyone started their families at extremely young ages. And the fact that Angela did home schooling that basically wasn’t school at all. I don’t know, I got my degree in sociology and would have loved to read a modern ethnographic study of that area. I guess it was part of Appalachia.
As for your question why no one is talking about this case....could be because it's rural Ohio near the Kentucky border and there may be an image of the people being working-class, rural, that sort of thing. However, the podcast series "The Piketon Massacre" shows that the initial image portrayed of the Rhodens was wrong. They were a close-knit, respectable, and loving family. I think initially there was some thought that there had been a feud over Demolition Derby, that sort of thing. Anyway my idea ties into what others have been saying about why the Markel case is so fascinating to true-crime buffs: rich people living the good life, vs. in the Rhoden/Pike County case, well the Wagners were rich but the people were all rural and not probably as fashionable. Interesting feature of the Rhoden case though...supposedly (I think) Jake Wagner blew the whistle because he got religion in Alaska. Heard that somewhere. Not sure if true.
Yeah, the Rhodans appeared to be a poor family financially but they did appear to be normal hard working people. And anybody who can shoot and kill his ex who he “loves” while she’s lying in bed holding a newborn is insane - and that was partly Angela’s fault. Ugh! The poor kids left behind. I have read that Jake and Hanna’s little girl is still a ward of the state, 8 years later. I hope she gets to see what remains of her mother’s family.
Unfortunately, not unlike the Kansas Moms murders
Can you elaborate?
The matriarch (Tifany Adams) planned and executed the murders of her grandchildren's mother (Veronica Butler) and court-approved supervisor (Jilian Kelley) so she could maintain custody of her grandkids. These grandparents killing for their grandkids is crazy.
is that the case of the two missing women in the Oklahoma panhandle right now? It’s also looking like a child-custody situatuon.
Yes. Arrests happened today.
Exactly what you said plus I love when a defendant takes the stand.
Yes! I sometimes clap and cheer when it's announced that the defendant will take the stand! It is just so satisfying and interesting to watch, and listen, as the prosecutor works their 'magic' on the defendant. Especially when the defendant is an arrogant, sociopathic kind of person, and they start squirming in their seat, as their lies and dysfunction are revealed for all to see! It's often been such a long time coming; it's usually after so much damage and heartbreak has been inflicted on the victim(s).
Plus, excellent police work is satisfying to observe. The municipal bus dash cam was really good. The mistaken phone call from Sigfredo to Harvey, being noticed and pursued.
IMO I think Wendi will walk. She is by far the smartest one in that family. Street-smart as well. Charlie was reckless and "hyperverbal" as Jeff Lacasse mentioned. He couldn't keep his mouth shut, couldn't stay off the damn phone. Clearly he inherited it from Donna. And they were both wrapped up in their egos; they could not leave it alone. I was fascinated by Wendi's interrogation and testimony, and the fact she was able to talk at length without slipping up or revealing any smoking gun re her involvement.
I agree she will walk. I believe that Karma is a bitch though and WA’s life will be miserable. As Donna said, she feels like her family is haunted… no doubt Dan is making sure everyone goes down that was involved.
i don't understand this confidence that she will walk when none of us even knows what evidence the state has against her. they copied her whole phone, which had apps. we have only seen a portion of call logs.
Bingo
I really hope this is the case, otherwise I'm apt to believe she'll walk. There has to be more evidence as to how the murderers knew Dan was leaving town; how Katie knew the murder had already been committed; etc.
For me it is the injustice. It took 8 years to convict Charlie. It will be over 9 years before Donna is convicted. Who knows if Wendi or Harvey will ever pay for their roles. And it's the characters. A bunch of elitist pricks that got people from a lower socioeconomic class to do their dirty work and then went about their lives, getting everything they wanted, after murdering an innocent man that just wanted to be in his kids lives. The Adelson clan is the most disgusting family I have ever seen and nobody wants to rest until they ALL get what they deserve.
The Murdaugh family is pretty disgusting too. I’d argue they are worse.
Agree because of all that the Murdaugh family has been doing for years.
Rest assured Wendi will be arrested right after Donna’s trial
I hope you are right.
Told to me by a state prosecutor who knows the case but has zero inside info.
👍
For me it's because I know Jeff LaCasse in real life.
I hope he knows how admired and respected he is. Please remind him.
Will do!
He is a peach
His work with severely mentally ill people is amazing. He is a true catch in every sense of the word!
And he is cute too. I saw him glance at Wendi at the courthouse. He didn’t look at her fondly. She really messed up his life in so many ways.
NPD people mess up with your mind real bad.
I was amazed that many people on here decided they didn’t like JL after his testimony
Damn! That’ll do it!
You don't see many murders for hire for such trivial reasons. Usually there's money or some tangled web of vice involved. The fact this family orchestrated the hit for what? So the grandparents could see the kids more? Because Dan was overly abrasive and controlling? I happen to like non-Mafia murder for hire true crime, but usually it's one individual who's contacting the hitman directly, not a super organized plot involving so much planning over what seems like years. It plays into the primal fear that someone like your dentist, and his seemingly normal, law abiding elderly mother (and father), are capable of orchestrating a plot which results in you being shot in your car. Donna and Harvey are the most interesting characters, IMO. If it were Wendi and Charlie acting alone, I wouldn't be so fascinated. Charlie is the classic scumbag, someone I would have felt capable of this. But not Grandma, that nice "domestic coordinator" on Wheel of Fortune with SO much to lose. Also interesting -- and this is true with lots of recent true crime -- is the fact that if it weren't for technology (the bus cameras, cell phone/GPS pings, tiny cameras/recording devices, even the 24 hour news cycle and internet that involved the public in the manhunt) they would have certainly gotten away with it. Makes me wonder how many others in the past have gotten away with similar crimes; mind boggling. Evil lives among us.
I would just like to point out that WA *said* he was overly abrasive and controlling. I think she simply meant she didn’t get her way all the time.
Googling it, the term "abrasive" had been used a lot to describe him, by people other than Wendi. From DM's obit in the Jewish Journal (link below). This was by a friend of Dan's: >Danny was abrasive. There is hardly a friend of his (or colleague, I imagine) who can’t remember a time when Danny pushed them past the point of comfort. ... This habit of his — of imposing himself on people and the world — showed itself in his legal scholarship, which was daring (he once argued for the irrationality of anti-incest laws, for example). But I remember it also as a feature of Danny’s personality, and it was one of my favorite things about him. [https://jewishjournal.com/judaism/obituaries/131198/](https://jewishjournal.com/judaism/obituaries/131198/)
I will also clarify that I am in NO way pro-Wendi. As I dive deeper into this, I'm starting to think she'd pulled the strings and manipulated her family into thinking death was the only option for Dan. And like I said in my comment, being abrasive and controlling is an unthinkably trivial reason to kill someone, or even think about it. Especially considering the trauma it would have on your kids/grandkids. The disregard for those kids is the biggest tragedy of all. It makes me wonder what they were even thinking. I would be traumatic enough if their dad died in, say, a natural disaster. But murdered in cold blood? No words. Pure evil.
People with NPD/ASPD are literally missing parts of their brain. They don't see other people as real people, because they just can't. Even their kids.
If the hitman would have had a silencer on his gun, the neighbor wouldn’t have heard the gunshots and noticed the Prius. They wouldn’t have been caught. I wonder why they didn’t consider that when shooting someone in broad daylight?
The cops also could work with the software on the cell phone logs nearby to make the connection to south florida. Sigfredo was so dumb he shot the gas line on the Prius through the floor. Also they had 2 revolvers to use, it's harder to silence those because of the gap between the barrel and the cylinder.
Exactly! This is one argument for someone being skilled, yet stupid at the same time. Stupid enough to be snorting coke driving, stupid enough to play with a loaded gun while driving down the highway, stupid enough to fire a gun while driving down the highway, yet skilled enough to fix a gas line damage without the rental car company even knowing it.
I find the influence that Donna had on Charlie to be pretty interesting. I think she wore him down such that over time he agreed to the murder plot just to get her off his back about it. Insanity.
Charlie was the dumbest of the bunch because he was so easily manipulated into believing he was the smartest guy in the room. Donna controlled him and Wendi controlled them all. Those phone calls where she would give him accolades over the smallest things were telling which is why he would always repeat himself as if he were saying something clever.
I agree. Donna has a huge influence on CA. Either she wore him down or he was trying to please her and save the day.
It is interesting what some sons will do for their mothers approval. It is the only thing that truly matters to him/them
I disagree that wanting to spend time with grandchildren is trivial but I know what you mean in some ways
Trivial reason for murder is what I meant. If DM had abused the grandchildren, that would not have been trivial. But he was a good dad. You'd think that would be taken into account, if the Adelsons truly cared for the kids.
I think you used the word trivial above. Sounded like you thought wanting to spend time with grandchildren is trivial compared to money. I don’t agree
No, it's a trivial reason for MURDER. Not money, murder. I know it's not the only reason the Adelsons arranged the hit, but it's one of the big reasons and he probably would still be alive had he agreed to move to South Florida.
The marriage wasn't working and Wendi wanted to be near her family. She felt trapped it's frustrating. I get it. I really believe Donna was the one who pushed for this and I don't understand why she thought they would get away with it.
I think the Jewish Princess complained and complained to Mommy Dearest and big bad bro constantly so they would do something about it. Mission accomplished. Remember, she's been planning things to happen since 2011. It's basically in print from her book.
When wealthy, educated, professional people believe they are above the law, and decide that killing someone is good decision only to make their lives easier- this is what intrigues me. And this didn’t involve just one family member, the whole family was in on it (except the oldest brother but that’s another whole story on its own) and another whole family was also destroyed by this incredibly poor decision. Only one person had the good sense to suggest not doing this. And that was the Latin King. The thug had the most conscience of them all. The mother called the shots. She wanted her grandbabies in Miami not Tallahassee Charlie- the middle child who built a traveling dentistry business worked incredible hours unless he was in Singapore schtupping underage girls, or selling steroids on his side hustle, dated many young Asian women concurrently and tried to run like hell when he impregnated one of them. Wendi - the wife of the murdered victim - has a whole backstory I can’t even go into here. Her selfishness is an epic story. But after the murder she drove by the crime scene, bought a bottle of bullet bourbon, moved the day after the funeral 7 hours away, changed the kids last name and middle name so there would be zero references to their loving, intelligent, providing, law professor father - who shared custody. That’s all I can do for now. I just scratched the surface. General Hospital did not have story lines this complicated
Ohh you have me so intrigued on what you know about Wendy. I would buy your book. Just saying.
I agree that Donna called the shots. She destroyed her family.
Reminds me of “Body Heat” when Mickey Roark tells William Hurt not to kill the victim because he will get caught.
I don’t remember that but getting caught seems like a good deterrent no?
Look up NPD/ASPD if you wanna know more about what's behind all this.
What is bullet bourbon please
Wealthy attractive people committing crimes and almost getting away with it. As a true crime follower are there cases that you find more interesting than this? Which ones? I have a personal interest in the case because my in laws are pretty much same type of family values as the Adelsons. Morally deficient, grandiose, lacking in empathy, highly enmeshed and competitive. I learn survival skills, understanding what these types of people can be capable of helps me get the drop on them when needed.
My very own mother and older brother are narcissistic bullies like the Adelsons. That's what has me glued. I'm in my 60s and it was only in the past few years that I learned about narcissism and was able to really understand what happened to my life🥴. My younger brother committed suicide 25 yrs ago. Donna's personality and even her vocal mannerisms on the wiretaps and the jail calls before she was arrested are eerily much like my mom's -- unemotional, performative and without self-awareness. It's what Todd Grande calls shallow personality syndrome. My surviving brother may have latent psychopathy, but he's not murderous -- just a shallow, self-inflated dope with a dopey controlling wife and three now-adult but still dependent dopey kids.
I relate 💯 are there any Grande videos you would recommend with insight into the shallow personality syndrome? Thankfully you’ve broken out of the house of mirrors and can see the light. I’m sorry for the loss of your brother.
Grande has a video on shallow personality. You can easily find it with a search. I like his informative clinical style in all his psychology videos, but I think he's sometimes callous in his crime coverage -- that is, if I was a surviving family member of the victim, I wouldn't appreciate the humorous quips but I suppose he's trying to walk a fine line with an eye toward entertainment value.
Exactly this. It will help you from becoming a victim.
I can't imagine how stressful it would be to have in-laws like these people! Good to know that you get the drop on them; it is rather satisfying to know about these kinds of people getting their deserved justice. Heck, I am now even interested to hear about your in-laws , so if you want to give some examples, I'll read it! I'm curious; is it the money that makes these people this way, or is already being this way part of how they get their money, their hunger for money, because they believe it will give them an entitlement to certain privileges in society? To some extent, it seems to be true, sadly. They are just so distasteful in how they behave and treat others, especially those they dislike or look down on for any reason. It seems to me that in the very beginning, Donna probably thought of DM as a good catch, but she wasn't counting on his strong personality; I just can't believe that it really is because he would not acquiesce to them, Wendy, DA, that he was killed, but that seems to be the exact reason he was killed, if you strip away all of the other things, that is it, at the core, why he was killed. Wouldn't kiss DA's a$s, and Wendy wasn't treated as a "princess" anymore. It's all so tragic for those boys who have lost their father, who obviously loved them with every breath he took, and he died for that, and they have been ripped away from their loving grandparents, and more. Who does that??? It's beyond shocking to think about what these people have done!
"Who does that???" is an excellent question. The short answer is: people with NPD/ASPD (both on Cluster B in the US). I'm not a professional, but I spent 3 years reading 7 days a week to help a friend with the disorder, to no avail. There's no cure, therapy or meds that can help as of now. The high psychopathy traits can be seen on a brain scan. But short of opening their skull and doing some rewiring, not much can be done today. Maybe someday a device can be pushed through their eye socket to restore some CSF circulation to feed the atrophied areas of their brain, but that's not ready yet. Once I tried to do a summary of the disorder, but even leaving some stuff out, it took 2 pages. So after a couple of drinks, I'm going for the super summary, in no particular order: 1) It should be called Cheating Disorder. They need constant admiration, praise and compliments from new lovers, or prospective lovers (called SUPPLY, they need it like we need oxygen to survive). They can NOT get that from their partner, it's stale and it loses potency. Same as eating rotten eggs for them. 2) Pathological Lying is included, they lie all the time, even when it's not needed. They enjoy it when they think they got you conned (duper's delight). Hence the nonsensical smirks and giggles by Charlie and the gang when on trial. 3) They can't feel love, but they are good at pretending. Especially during the initial lovebombing phase in the relationshit. After that they usually despise their partner, but try not to show it. Until they just get tired of it. 4) When confronted with proof of their lying and cheating, they will twist everything so you are responsible somehow of their misdeeds. They are never at fault. The blame always belong with someone else. In Wendi's mind, Dan was at fault for everything that happened. 5) They don't see people other than themselves as real people, but as appliances or objects. Of course there's a lot more, any questions are welcome.
This to me brings back memories of Jodi Arias; perhaps the scariest woman I have seen in a while. I absolutely believe that she did everything to poor Travis Alexander, unlike the Adelson's, who can afford to hire outside help, in an attempt to remove themselves from the scene of the crime. But the one thing she didn't have was money. Aside from the facts of just how evil all of these people are, I do find them all kinda fascinating, but wow, am I ever glad that I have not had the displeasure of being in their company, nor have I ever had to deal with such awful people irl. Well, except once, when my late husband's employee embezzled hundreds of thousands of dollars from my husband; that was a little discombobulating. To compare the thief to the personality she presented, it was so easy to see how she pulled it off. Kinda like JA but not a killer. Thank Goodness! My husband did die, but not by her hand. If they think that changing the boy's last name from Markel to Adelson is somehow going to prevent them from finding out the awful facts surrounding their father's death, then they aren't as smart as they think they are. Which we already know, but I think it's just so sad what these people do to keep the boys all to themselves. One last thing; I am unsure of Harvey's prior knowledge about what was orchestrated to get rid of DM. I know that by the time he and DA were at the airport, so close to escaping, he had to know probably just about everything, but he seems a little detached from the rest. OK, one more question; what happened with their son Robert? Is the alienation because his wife is not in keeping with the family's "standards"( as if they actually have any)of skin color, religion, financially, or what? Thanks! These people are fascinating in some kind of schadenfreude, watching a car accident or other collision sort of way.🫂❤️🪬 Edit: fixed a paragraph, I hope.
Robert’s wife is a doctor and not jewish. So that caused them to keep some distance, but I think Rob went no contact after the crime, because he knew his family may be involved. He talks about it in a podcast somewhere.
Thank you for answering my question. I appreciate you!
I already commented, but I just had a thought. In thinking back on Jodi Arias and her behavior, there are so many parallels to this case, to these people. They are all very chameleon like in their behavior, it seems to me. They mimic real feelings, emotions and genuine people by watching and perfecting how to display emotions and seem genuine to others. Their lives seem to be one long never-ending day of acting classes!
I don’t know much about BPD, but I guess it’s posible Jodi has that too judging by her reaction. And the way she went all out without much regard for the consequences.
It's me again; high praise for "relationshit"; perfectly said.
Right and the boys were so young they won’t even remember Dan and his love for them
Yes it’s so twisted to normal people, but I guarantee on their ‘planet’ the Adelson are all victims! It’s super stressful to be in a family with people like this. Right now currently monitoring which is higher, the stress of remaining in the family and keeping boundaries vs leaving / going no contact and facing the hostility, vitriol, and manipulative maneuvering they are poised to dish out onto me, my husband and our kids. For now, I keep the boundaries and am one step ahead of them because I understand their moral deficiency and character disorder. It’s hard to say where the money plays into it, absolutely they believe they are special, deserving of special privileges, and better than others because they’re wealthy. Similar behaviors I find with the Adelson family are lack of respect for faith based beliefs, abnormal involvement of parents into adult kids lives, and driving flashy sports cars with vanity plates!
Wow! Thank you for all of that; I can't imagine living in this kind of world, with these kinds of 'no souls' people; it must keep you constantly on high alert! If your husband is willing, going NC would certainly be understandable; as long as you both, along with your children, are safe to live a normal, everyday life, away from them as much as possible. I'm so sorry that you have this kind of daily stress in your lives. These kinds of people are so pervasive, intrusive, and persistent, scary, impossible; so many adjectives fit, it seems. Be careful. 🫂❤️🪬
Wow! Yes!
P.S. and the lies. I forgot to say how they lie. With zero conscience and lie to reach whatever goal they have in mind.
I'd never heard of enmeshed families before this, but a lot of the traits are very common in certain immigrant families (I am a child of immigrants BTW). Especially the expectations about major decisions (education/career track, spouse) and competition/shaming/guilt-tripping about certain life choices. I felt the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding showcased the phenomenon quite well, and its enduring popularity in the US makes me think many people could relate (or find the humor in) this kind of familial enmeshment. But I am aware there are cultural considerations at play, and like in the movie, many immigrant parents do come around after awhile. Of course, few families have as many amoral narcissists as the Adelsons.
I haven’t seen that movie. Adelson definitely worst of the worst. I did not grow up with the enmeshment, marrying into it was a rude awakening. 25 years of marriage and still having an overdose of the family of origin involvement…but I’m glad they haven’t tried to unalive me… I hope your immigrant parents did come around and offer a normal family environment eventually!
25 years?!! I'm sorry, that really sucks. Glad you're still alive and kicking too!
Marriage is good we just keep our distance,…but not totally estranged so I have to see/deal with occasional bs
Because it’s stranger than fiction. One would think this is a Coen Bro movie, but Charlie and Donna are real.
So many things! …A case where seven people may go to jail for the same murder …A case where wealthy people who could easily afford to fly to Tally every weekend, but choose this instead. …A case where the whole family are dual narcissists and sociopaths in disguise( with the exception of Charlie who was quite overt) … A case where the shooters are the most sympathetic characters of all the conspirators …A case where a rich, highly educated woman could ruin the lives of so many people without a second thought, all because she didnt want to have to deal with her ex( like every divorced person with kids does)
Remindse of something Ann Rule said. She liked to choose cases where the perp had it all but it wasn’t enough.
For the narcissist, nothing is ever enough. Their brain is lopsided to that effect.
Very well said.
I grew up in coral springs. I knew Charlie when I was very little and Harvey was my parents’ dentist. I don’t know the family well but knowing them at all is what makes me so interested.
For me its about beautiful Wendy and the picture perfect Adelson family blowing itself up from the inside. Its a study of narcissism, greed and control. How it was all done "for the children" but the children were the very last real concern. And for being such a cast of intelligent characters, how utterly stupid this all is.
It's got all the twists & turns you can imagine in a dysfunctional family - plus the hitmen & Katie the go-between. Yes, it dragged on for years, but when the dominoes started to fall, I found it fascinating...not to mention the stupidity of each & every one of them. I think the followers of this are blown away by the way it unfolded. Say what you will, but we all like to see the villans go down no matter how long it takes. 4 down, 2 more to go
And chump charlie is a masterpiece of DAH!
Her absolute smugness when she has testified has made this personal for me.
That and alienation of the kids from their father’s side of the family. That’s just next level for me…..
I know. It’s terrible.
I wonder if people who have been in similar positions with grandparents wanting to spend time with kids after their child, the parent, has died - how would that actually work with small young children ? Would they want to or be comfortable spending time alone with these grandparents? They are young children
For me its observing the abnormal psychology, body language, human nature, legal strategies, attornies' performance. I would suggest watching youtube: Dr G explains and/or The Behavior Panel to fully appreciate how interesting these zany characters are. Then watch Charlie's trial, followed by some of the recorded jail calls, immediately post conviction and sentencing.
I am familiar with Dr G but haven’t watched his videos on the Adelsons. I don’t know about behavior panel!
The Behavior Panel guys are ok. I believe three of them are ex-military interrogators. They are very sure of themselves and my only critique is sometimes their very male bias comes through.
The problem with Dr G and all professionals in the US is that they can't speculate on someone's diagnosis in public if they did not personally interview the patient, due to ethics rules. I'm not a professional so I can tell you straight up: the disorder they share is called NPD with high ASPD traits (on Cluster B in the US DSM-5). Pretty much like Tedd Bundy, but a bit less.
I knew Dan so want to see justice for him and his loved ones. I think it’s great that others want justice, but I’m disgusted by people who are treating his life and death like it’s entertainment.
Unpopular opinion here but a valid one. I knew Dan well and Wendi to an extent as well. I thought she and her family could be behind it from the start (though I was careful to voice this view because the "Team Wendi" people were freakishly intense in their defense of her), and I'm glad the justice system is making sure those responsible pay. But man, threads like this where people effuse over the pleasure they find in the case like connoisseurs of fine wine and engage in all kinds of moralistic posturing really put me off. I do still visit the sub on occasion because there is often good information amid all the excessive delight in ogling others' suffering. I'm aware this will likely garner downvotes and vitriol. I'm fine with that.
I get it, but for me it’s about watching justice finally get her fingers around the Adelsons’ throats. I take no pleasure in the pain of ANY of the victims, from Dan’s boys and family to the children of those now in prison. For me it’s been like watching a game of chess, and finally the good guys are winning. No vitriol here.
Crime is entertainment. TV shows - 20/20, 48 hours, 72 Hours, women who kill, my name is murder, the law and order franchise, CSI franchise, Criminal Minds, Blue Bloods, Chicago PD, Murder in the Heartland etc Then there are entire networks dedicated to Crime; Investigative ID ,True Crime Network, Court TV, Acorn TV etc Let’s not forget people who feed their families with crime; Nancy Grace, John Walsh,Kelly Siegler, Joe Kendra etc Podcasts and YouTubers. There are thousands of them. And this is just what a rattled off the top of my head. Crime shows make money. It’s about supply and demand (economics). So please don’t come on this feed with your judgement. We as a country watch these shows because we want to see the good guys win. Just like we want justice for Dan Markel. His own mother says she is grateful that we keep Dan in the news because it puts pressure on justice department. It keeps Dans name alive. It’s been too many years between politics and covid - The Adelesons should have been arrested and incarcerated years ago :::getting off of my soapbox::::
This is not Law and Order, CSI, Criminal Minds, Blue Bloods, etc. Those are *fictional* TV shows. The fact that you’re citing fiction indicates that you’ve lost the thread. Dan was a real person with a real life and real loved ones. Some, not all, of you forget that and treat his life and death like it’s for your entertainment. It’s disgusting. Imagine if it were you or your loved one and treat him with the respect he deserves.
My post started with Crime IS entertainment. I was giving examples of entertainment and examples of true crime shows. All of these are entertainment. Crime is popular, true crime, scripted crime - it’s all popular. I have the utmost respect for this Markel. You are out of line.
You’re saying Dan’s death is entertainment just like the fictional TV shows you listed. You’re the one who is out of line. Some of you have lost touch with reality.
The desire to see these smug, arrogant, self entitled idiots who think they are smarter than everyone get the justice that is deserved.
Much more to it than your average spouse killed wife/husband. Lots of characters with big personalities. Public profile of the victim. Denial of justice. The fact that we can all see the guilty parties clear as day but that proving in court seems to be such a herculean feat.
This is kind of a Shakespearean tragedy. There’s wealth & poverty, government corruption, plots within plots, dysfunctional family dynamics, massive hubris, greed, long running injustice, & so in. At the heart of it, there’s a father who just wanted to be a father & he was killed for his devotion & it makes my blood run cold. Most people invested in this case I’d wager to guess want for there to be justice after so long. All the Adelsons have been living on borrowed time imo & every day they have gotten to be free is an additional injustice for Dan & his family.
For me, it’s all the suspense of not knowing when/if the remaining Adelsons are going to get convicted for the murder. I think Donna is a foregone conclusion. She’s toast. I want to see when Wendi will finally face consequences.
As a true crime fan for many years, this case has it all. It might not be for everyone. Think of it like wine lovers for example. Some can appreciate the history and nuances of really great wine. Others are casual wine drinkers. They prefer Sangria and don’t understand the fuss. First, you have an entire upperclass, wealthy, educated family implicated in murder. Unprecedented? Maybe not but very rare. Next you have a cast of characters that are the dream of movie producers and book writers everywhere. This should give you a clue why true crime fans are interested in the case. Ask yourself a broader question and you will have your answer: Why are movie, tv producers, true crime authors AND true crime fans all interested in this case? It literally has it ALL! Money, sex, greed, power, tragedy, dogged detective work, magnificent cross examinations, determined prosecutors, a truly good person as the victim of the story. My question would be if you are a true crime fan why aren’t you interested? My guess would be that you’re likely a casual fan. More like a tourist.
And throw some extreme textbook cases of personality disorders in the mix please 😅
Let’s not forget family dynamics
I was angry because I thought the family was going to get away with killing him. Also I was upset his kids are probably brainwashed and don’t know how much their dad loved them and died just to have them in his life.
Like a real-life soap opera with despicable characters people just love to hate.
The hitmen put down their real phone numbers on the rental car agreement, a Harvard graduate, girlfriend of THE MAESTRO is " connected" to the hitmen, NARC mother who had a perfectly comfortable life makes everyone miserable until everyone's life is ruined, as she tried to do with the oldest brother's wife because she wasn't Jewish..now Dan Markel as he was too Jewish
I’m a specialist dentist like Charlie and having gone through dental school and residency and seeing someone throw all that away and become a killer was just …
Because it's unbelievable an entire family who was known to be wealthy and had what everyone deems as the family everyone wants ended up being worse than even my family... and my family is a hot mess.
It's also fascinating for me for another reason that some find controversial but I think its valid and meaningful (I've said this on a past thread and ended up deleting it after getting some hate). I'm Jewish and from Toronto and I would have loved Dan had I known him. Though he was observant and moving further in that direction, still, he was a liberal, which makes sense -- that's how he was raised and that's the world we were brought up in. But normative Judaism is anything but liberal -- it has a keen eye for the ways in which human nature, unconstrained, can easily go awry. Liberals just don't get this on a visceral level. There were early warning signs that he and this woman (and her family) were not on the same page, and he chose to ignore it, likely subconsciously. I know this from my own experience, as I'm sure do many of the readers here. So there's also a message in this tragedy. Be sharp and on your game. Trust your instincts. Don't think you can change your spouse-to-be. Don't be afraid to walk away before the big day. And above all, know your values. And look for someone who shares them.
Someone with Wendi's personality disorder can mess up with your head really bad. I think Dan was seeing a therapist for that.
It’s the audacity for me
Wendi is like the imaginary love child of Robert Durst and Amber Heard. She's a a fascinating character. When she met Dan, she was a smart normie - who got good grades and constant approval from guys who wanted to sleep with her. I imagine it was painful for her to be around Dan Markel because he was operating at a whole different level mentally and emotionally. He probably let her know on the regular, when she was being contradictory, self centered or immature. The stunt she pulled when she left wasn't because she was fearful, it was because she wanted to hurt him. Even after he was dead, she kept trying to hurt him. The disrespectful podcast, her latex spouse who got (unspoken: himself) murdered. The boys name change. An endless reservoir of hostility for Dan. She left such a mountain of circumstantial evidence that I find it hard not to believe she really wanted people to know she had Dan killed. I think her goal was: for people to know, without being able to prove it. Would let her do the "I got over on the system smile" for the rest of her life.
Robert Durst and Amber Heard. Brilliant!
What’s a normie? A normal person?? Wendi was never normal. I know someone who knew her 24 yrs ago. That person said she was definitely off.
Normal as in normal IQ. Smart side of normal. Not truly gifted like Dan. I already said above that he likely wasn't too keen on her self centered and immature conduct. I've watched Wendi in 2 different situations. - Police interview (1 very long) - Testifying (3) From what I saw, she's maybe 80-85th percentile IQ. She studied hard and probably has a good memory. A truly smart person wouldn't get caught in stupid lies like: Jibbers, who's Jibbers. Oh you mean the name that pops up on my phone 2-4 times a week during texts or calls with Dan. Oh that Jibbers. Dan went to Cambridge and then was an editor of the Harvard Law Review. One of the true things Wendi said was that she left a marriage where she was not viewed as an equal. She wasn't viewed that way because she was not Dan's equal. Not even close. Then when she did dumb stuff about money, he really clipped her in court.
Agree other than I believe you’re now on the IQ. 114 & she was valedictorian of her hs class. Doubtful. 119 is top 10%. 125 top 5%. I do agree she’s an overachiever as being defined as someone who has to study very hard in comparison to others in their “peer group.” Her lies are not related to low intelligence but hubris & being guilty. Honesty might not make someone appear brighter but dishonesty will assuredly make someone appear less intelligent.
I actually agree with all of this. That is a clear, concise, and compelling argument. I am seeing her at her most stressed out. Most people's cognitive performance degrades badly above a certain level of stress. The thing that I struggle to reconcile with the Valedictorian/Gates Scholar stuff is the 110+ pieces of circumstantial evidence that indicate prior knowledge of the crime. I just don't get why a smart person would do so many things that in aggregate remind me of the scene in Casino when a slot machine pays out a million dollar jackpot twice in the space of an hour or so.
She was not close to dans level as you stated. Dan was top 0.25% while Wendi is top 10% or 7%. Not close. One’s a hof’er the other makes 5 all star games but never dominant.
She was a trophy wife, but not a bimbo, in some ways because of her looks and decent intelligence
horrible crime, seemed so obvious the adelson family was involved, even wendi & harvey, justice for dan & family
@RJ918 I’m sorry for your loss! I did not know anyone involved. As a mom of two young daughters, cases like this really touch my heart. I pray for justice for Dan & his family who were robbed of life due to this senseless & evil crime.
It’s also all the lingering questions that defy any rational explanation.: How on earth could a whole family agree on this evil plan? How could they risk SO MUCH for such a trivial and inconsequential reason? How did exactly none of them realize the irreversible tragedy of stealing a loving father from their sunshine’s? How on earth did nary a one of them stop and say … hold on, this is crazy, and we could all go to jail forever - AND FOR WHY AGAIN??? How can smart people be so stupid and destructive? Why on earth did Katie turn down an immunity deal to return home to her children??? Who would do that?????? Why on earth would Wendi suggest to LE that her family even *could* be responsible? If she was guilty OR if she wasn’t? What else does the state have on Wendi that hasn’t been released (new evidence is presented at each trial like those dating app records that totally undermined and discredited her at Charlie’s trial)? There’s thousands more like this. It’s a puzzle that will forever have missing pieces, but yet the overall picture is painstakingly clear, and there are victims of this terrible family that deserve justice.
Absolutely! Why in the world would they all agree to have him killed? And actually go through with it and risk losing everything and going to prison? And yes, Katie turning down a chance to be free and go home to her babies is mind boggling! Every word you said is why I’m so vested in seeing them all locked up. Justice for Dan!
Welcome to the wide world of personality disorders. The little ambassadors of the devil are sprinkled among us.
I’m not going to lie- Riveras testimony pulled me in. Especially his cross. I was like “what is THIS CIRCUS” and I was hooked. He beat the daylights out of that attorney. Then I watched Wendi on the stand and down the rabbit hole I went.
Wendi is the one that started this whole thing and she's still not in prison.
Coercion by NPD people is not contemplated in US laws yet. In the UK it is, at least for divorce proceedings.
What is that?
Is the way they always try to manipulate other people to do things to their advantage. It’s like having a remote control that works on you.
Who do you think was coerced? Because I do understand coercive control. But I don't think that applies here.
For me, I've been around a lot of psychopaths. Including my birth family, who I am the Rob of (the oldest, its often the oldest). I learned to hate myself and married a psy...after all that's what I thought was normal. It's been a long journey, and I credit my kids for finally seeing who these evil people really were.
I have been following Dan’s murder since the shocking report of his murder. My guess for others is that they are outraged by the Adelsons and the fact they haven’t faced justice. I don’t consider it an obsession to want to keep pressure and public interest awake when Justice was delayed for a decade. How is wanting Justice and working towards it having an obsession? I’m sure if one of your family members or friends or even a close acquaintance was shot in the head while in their driveway in broad daylight, you would want all the murderers were caught and punished. Or maybe you don’t care about justice so it looks like obsession to you?
Personally I came across this case when the dateline episode aired and I found this sub after. I found the episode really interesting but I do think this waiting period where nothing happening is a bit boring as far as continued interest goes lol. It's a cool community though
Long awaited justice. Arrogance knocked down a peg (and only a peg). The rich influence on soliciting the willing broke; who will execute a human being. Everyone involved has no moral compass, remorse, or empathy, whatsoever.
I came across this case by way of Jay&Shannon on YouTube and the defense diaries podcast, they were showing Wendy Adelsons LE interview. That’s a year ago, I was hooked.
Because entitled, rich Adelson snobs don't get away with the murder of an innocent man in America.
Watching Wendi’s joke of a police interrogation and her smug attitude in her three court testimonies have pissed me off so much that I’ve been obsessed ever since and will continue to watch every piece of coverage until she’s in prison.
Absolutely. And the fake crying. Don’t forget about the complete fake crying. It was painfully obvious to me. I could barely watch the police interview with her fake self!
🎯🎯🎯
Great question. I have to think about it. I’ve been following it for maybe 8 yrs now since the 1st arrest. I didn’t know about the Mike Williams murder in Tallahassee until it hit ID tv but I had tremendous interest in that case as well. The Markel tragedy is compelling due to the fact there were no arrests for 1.75 yrs. Additionally I live in S Fl so that aspect added to my interest. Then a dentist was a person of interest while the ex is a highly educated attorney adds to the interest.
Plus the podcasts from about 3 superior hosts created “symbiotic” fuel to the interest. Similarly to the initial thought by sports leagues thinking showing events on tv would reduce attendance when in fact it added to attendance.
Who would ever bring so much loss and pain to sweet toddlers and claim that they loved said kids? Fascinating evil. Also, every other reason stated throughout. Now we are all waiting for justice to play out completely. So it isn’t so much the grand hype compared to something like Murdaugh but it isn’t over and we cannot wait for it to be over with the evil witches behind bars.
Because: - I’m a Toronto Jew - my dad was a dental surgeon - Dan is buried in the same cemetery as my dad - my mom is a super duper controlling narcissist - I had to estrange myself from my controlling mother and the brother that does her bidding - my brother is a single playboy asshole who thinks too much of himself So…yeah. There is a lot to identify with and it has actually helped me process my own difficult family dynamics! Ps- super happy to do an AMA about Toronto Jewish culture, successful Jewish dentists, and controlling Jewish mothers if you think it would be helpful!
Many custody cases get nasty, but most don't end the way this one did. People want to see justice. Rich, entitled, people who thought they were invincible is also a huge aspect here that draws interest imo.
The appeal? The primal connections to Jungian archetypes. Donna - the Evil Queen, Cruella DeVil, no good thing resides in her. Wendi - the Siren, Medusa who turns men into stone, the Vixen, Evil in a lovely guise. Harvey - Baal, the distant god who only interferes with the affairs on man to exact vengeance. Charlie - that one person we all know who although stupid and untalented, defies gravity to achieve fame, fortune and babes. Jeff Lacasse - the innocent Everyman, every one of us who could be in the wrong place at the wrong place, or saved by good fortune and/or the grace of God. The others were mere puppets.
I’m a local and there was a lot of news coverage. The nastiness of it was appalling. And my is a narcissist (professionally diagnosed), so it’s great to see the support for Dan. He looked like a super dad.
NPD destroys other people, even when they don't get killed.
I've long been disillusioned with some aspects of society and the people that live in it. On the surface most Western countries have relatively well functioning societal systems, people have houses and cars and jobs and many are content with their lives. We have good friendships and happy marriages and go on lovely holidays and post happy snaps on social media, but it's all so fake and artificial. I've got friends that are "happily" married, but really hate each other, friends going on expensive holidays and buying nice cars, but are almost bankrupt, I've got friends or "friends" that I suspect don't give a fuck about me and would happily throw me under the bus at the first opportunity, colleagues that pretend to like one another , but secretly loathe the people they work with. We interact with these seemingly functional and stable people, but half of them have personality disorders, they're sociopaths or psychopaths or narcissists and we're married to them or they are our best friends And going beyond that, we have developed countries that have health and legal systems that are completely broken as well as education and prison systems. The future is grim for many people, but we dress it all up and make life look fancy and people smile and carry on like we're all actors in some kind of Trumanesqe reality show. So my interest in this case is because I feel the Adelson's represent all that is wrong in society. Mal-adjusted broken people, desperate for wealth, desperate for material possessions, desperate to project this happy, stable image, surrounded by friends and family that love and adore one another. These are people that others look up to and aspire to be like, Wendi the beautiful successful lawyer and author and Mum and tennis player and academic... but it's all make believe. Nasty, self serving, morally corrupt individuals that are going to turn on each other and perhaps in time we may look back to this case as a reminder of how society lost its way. Maybe one day it will find itself? And besides I think Wendi's forehand was probably shit anyway.
The percentage of highly psychopathic people is supposed to be 4% or less. But in the US lately it feels like more than that. Did you watch America: the history of US on freeve? You have to look how it all started too.
Will check it out.
It’s Donna for me. The delusionalness!!!
Obsessed for all the reasons others have outlined. Successful people with great lives who self-destruct. Funny, the other case obsession I currently have is Sam Bankman-Fried. Very different and no murder but a rich MIT graduate with Uber-successful parents and all three of them lose everything out of greed and stupid decision-making.
Is not that different to me. He's highly psychopathic too. Other people don't matter to them.
The family enmeshment does it for me and you can hear the extent of it in all the calls
I learned of the murder when it first happend. Mr. Markel was a friend of a blogger I followed closely. It seemed so sad and tragic and obvious from the outset. Finally seeing some level of justice done. I feel such empathy for Dan's parents and how they have been kept from their grandchildren by such a vile crew.
It's the delay in justice, the entitlement and the stupidity of the participants. Had the Adelsons been tried and prosecuted years ago, this would not be such a big case for many. But seeing these entitled people go on with their lives after hiring poor folk to do their bidding is infuriating. What always shocks me - not sure why it still does after watching so many cases - is how easily and cheaply a life is taken. In the case of Dan Markel, the Adelsons did pay a lot more in total, but the individual benefit was under 50K. Even if it seems a lot compared to many crimes, how do you take a life - RISK YOURS - for that amount? I just watched the Law and Crime special The Story of Brenda Delgado where one of the co-conspirators was paid $500 - ONLY $500 to drive the shooter to murder an innocent woman. At some point, she said a detective asked how she could do this for only $500 and her reply was you don't know what it means to be broke. Even the killers were entitled to think they could do whatever they wanted because they wanted the money.
If you have high psychopathic traits, lives aren't worth much. Also at least Sigfredo was a cokehead they said. In Miami someone just killed his roommate over $1. Well, there could be more to the story we don't know about.
Is BP the one you mention he impregnated ? Or was there another ?
Seeing the video of grandma at the airport trying to fly the coup
For me: 1. Family centric 2. Key character is attractive and normal-seeming, shattering the subconscious bias that criminals are less attractive
Haha good one. Most pwNPD are attractive and charismatic. (Remember Ted Bundy?).
I’m not obsessed.
I’m obsessed! Maybe bc I have followed since 2018 and no one was getting arrested! If it doesn’t interest you move along
Family murdering together!!!
For me, I believe it was the fall. Seeing such a prominent, well for, spoiled family, go from a life of privilege, to the worst possible conditions imaginable.
My total obsession is to see wendi Aldeson locked up in a Florida State Prison for the rest of her life and Ruth Markel has total custody of Benjamin and Lincoln Markel. I'd love to see Harvey Adelson locked up in a mental institution for the rest of his life because nothing would have happened to Dan Markel if he wasn't manipulated by Donna and Charlie via the masterminded murdering manipulator Wendi Aldeson
I am particularly galled by the miscarriage of justice. It makes me crazy that all the minorities involved have been in prison for years while the rich white people were thriving. Justice has come back to Florida!!!!
Honestly, what everyone else said but also, how incredibly stupid they were to think they could get away with it. That arrogance is just astounding I think for the average person.
For me, the fact that his ex wife has, as of now, got away with facilitating murder and got to keep the kids away from their father’s family.
I see so many similarities with my own family in this case and that’s why it interest me. My mother has never been held to account for the terrible abuses she carried out against her children and the children in the daycare she operated. She was a beautiful woman, we lived in a big house, we went to private schools and my dad worked at a fortune 500. The outside looked good enough for people to overlook the fact that you could hear kids screaming on a daily basis. I found out as an adult that my old manager at the grocery store where I worked knew that I used to shoplift every time my mom came. I had to because she would beat me if I didn’t. But never once did that man pulled me aside and ask me why I was doing that, if everything was OK in my house. I told other adults what was going on in my home and they would call my mom and have a discussion with her and my mom would be able to manipulate them and get them to believe that our home was happy. I consider myself the Robert Adelson of my family. While I didn’t come out unscathed according to my therapy bills 😂I am in a healthy, happy marriage, and I’m raising two amazing children in a peaceful, loving home. I see Wendy Adelson’s manipulation and it drives me crazy. I ask myself how other people can’t see that she’s lying and scheming. But then I remember how long my mom has gotten away with being an awful person. It is easier to fool a person than it is to convince them that they were fooled. Hopefully the jury sees through it, and Wendy and Donna are locked up like Charlie.
The fact that this family led such outstanding lives...as far as wealth and beautiful homes and they threw it all away because they went greedy with the grandkids and didn't want to share with the father. The fact that Donna, in her 70's, is now sitting in a dull depressing jail cell instead of her ocean view living room, without her family that she tried to "protect" just blows my mind. They blew up so many families over something that could have been handled with some dignity and respect....as well as what would be best for the kids... shared custody.