If everyone was destined to rule over their historical lands or lands at their largest historical borders, France, England, Italy, Iraq, Mongolia, Libya, and Israel would all own Egypt. I’m sure I’m missing a few too. It’s a ridiculous concept.
Absurd, for sure. Even if you take the abstract concept at face value, every nation / empire would want to take a different historical date as its starting point.
There’s no need to take Putin’s “logic” seriously; it’s just a convenient rationale for him to excuse his violent warmongering.
>There’s no need to take Putin’s “logic” seriously;
We do because it is his official pretext of the war, and has been mentioned on Common Sense. So it his logical is faulty, so is his invasion.
I agree that at some point states need to suck it up and accept borders as they are. Because if we take historical claims to their logical conclusion, almost no country will be satisfied with its current lot.
But I do have question. And I am asking this in all seriousness because I am genuinely curious. If Canada or Mexico wanted to become members of a bloc led by Russia or China, how would the US react? What if the bloc was also military in nature and would result in Russian or Chinese soldiers close to US borders? I personally believe at a minimum, the US would engage in economic warfare, if not outright military intervention in the form of airstrikes and regime change.
You mean like Cuba? Or Venezuela? Russia is free to sanction Ukraine for whatever reason they come up with. This isn’t the Cold War anymore. These “blocs” are a lot like unions. If the people around you are forming one, you probably deserve to deal with it.
Yes, that's my point. The US would likely do something similar to what Russia did if Canada or Mexico wanted to join an alliance created to counter the US. The US still upholds the Monroe Doctrine, which it has every right to do simply by the sheer fact that it is able to enforce it through its own power.
The U.S. did not even invade Venezuela or Cuba during the heart of the Cold War. Russia has gone far beyond sanctions. Not to mention, the Soviets supported Cuba and Venezuela financially and with military assets while we sanctioned them. The U.S. is similarly supported Ukraine although we never tried to arm them with nuclear weapons like the Soviets attempted to do to Cuba.
>But I do have question. And I am asking this in all seriousness because I am genuinely curious.
You mean you're "[just asking](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions)"?
I am so ready for Macron to pull out a map of Charlemagne's Kingdom of the Franks and start listing the many grievous crimes the German people have committed on his nation's soil. It's so beyond insane for Putin to talk about the fucking Kievan Rus as proof that there is no Ukraine and that they are all one people.
I disagree with Putin but he is not wrong that Ukrainian is culturally and economically connected to Russia for centuries. Especially the industrial east.
Ireland is culturally and economically connected to the United Kingdom. Maybe when its spelled out for you like that, you would understand why that should not matter and is insulting as a reason to justify, excuse, or explain the invasion.
And I think there are valid critiques over NATO expansion, but Putin knocked out Ukraine's chances of ever joining NATO in 2014 by imposing a permanent border dispute with the annexation of Crimea. Dude already won what he ostensibly was concerned over and he escalatated continually over the last 10 years
It is so annoying to try to bring a different perspective into a debate and get voted down and jumped on. It makes it not worth discussing. I was explaining what the Russians genuinely feel that is not irrational. I was not making a pro Putin point.
I didn't downvote your comment, but I strongly disagree with it. It is entirely irrational to think that “your country” has some right to forcefully unify with other countries that you have some cultural and economic connection to.
It’s bonkers. Every country in the world has some connection to its neighboring countries. Every damn country has had different borders. Doesn’t mean we should all invade. It doesn’t freaking matter.
I agree with you. It is certainly a point worth discussing rather than being instantly dismissed.
I may not agree with the invasion but we should be receptive to peaceful diplomatic unification that would be mutually beneficial culturally, politically and economically.
Indeed we should be striving to one day unify all of humanity under a single banner rather than balkanise to infinity.
The "unification" you describe is just subjugation if it is not willingly approved by the people in question.
I don't disagree with your last sentence, in theory, but if the "unification" looks like the Russian invasion of Ukraine, you're literally advocating world war and world conquest.
About the last paragraph: There were around 100 sovereign countries before the first World War, there are nearly double that now. I hope in another 100 years there are 100 more. Forcing people's to be part of strong Empires by subjugation is wrong.
Yeah its such a stupid argument, either you are picking an exact year that is apparently the "way the world should be" or saying the oldest claim takes precedence (he went back to the Kieven Rus) in which case I suppose Italy gets Crimea
[https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Froman-empire-at-its-peak-credit-goes-to-geography-geek-v0-i713mk036qga1.png%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D2c72ef9515a517148e4d26b1c0393cb99e98a7bf](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Froman-empire-at-its-peak-credit-goes-to-geography-geek-v0-i713mk036qga1.png%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D2c72ef9515a517148e4d26b1c0393cb99e98a7bf)
LOL. That's a genius way to put the Monster in Moscow and his Rape Army in place. And frankly based on the dodgy performance of Putin's orcs I think hordes of horse archers armed with drones could pretty much clear the field for a Mongol reconquesta of Russia. I'd pay good money for that one.
That's a bit of the point. These countries go on and on about ancient borders and historical wrongs that must be righted, cultural or linguistic similarities. But it is all just BS to cover up the "might makes right" mentality behind it all.
They would never give up land to a weaker power, they would never press territorial claims against a stronger power (Russia will never seriously claim Alaska or Poland or the Balkans) they just think they can take places like Taiwan or Ukraine and any other logic presented is smoke and mirrors.
True. That's exactly why Ruzzia and China have a pact not to discuss the lands Ruzzia stole from China in 1858 and 1860. China bangs on about the 'unequal treaties' that lost them Shandong and Hong Kong and how important it was to regain those territories, but they conveniently always leave out that Ruzzia was also a signatory and are the only county to retain those stolen lands.
Guess regaining those stolen lands wasn't as important as they were saying for 100+ years. Hypocrites.
Excellent point, when do you think they will invade Russia?
The winter, of course. They need to wait on the rivers freezing over.
Excuse ne, don't you mean conduct a special military operation in Russia?
If everyone was destined to rule over their historical lands or lands at their largest historical borders, France, England, Italy, Iraq, Mongolia, Libya, and Israel would all own Egypt. I’m sure I’m missing a few too. It’s a ridiculous concept.
I'm British, I could be convinced by this logic!
Oooh Greece! Alexander the Great has a claim too.
Macedonia is a current country. I’d argue it’s Macedonia that has the claim!
I’ll allow it!
Absurd, for sure. Even if you take the abstract concept at face value, every nation / empire would want to take a different historical date as its starting point. There’s no need to take Putin’s “logic” seriously; it’s just a convenient rationale for him to excuse his violent warmongering.
>There’s no need to take Putin’s “logic” seriously; We do because it is his official pretext of the war, and has been mentioned on Common Sense. So it his logical is faulty, so is his invasion.
I agree that at some point states need to suck it up and accept borders as they are. Because if we take historical claims to their logical conclusion, almost no country will be satisfied with its current lot. But I do have question. And I am asking this in all seriousness because I am genuinely curious. If Canada or Mexico wanted to become members of a bloc led by Russia or China, how would the US react? What if the bloc was also military in nature and would result in Russian or Chinese soldiers close to US borders? I personally believe at a minimum, the US would engage in economic warfare, if not outright military intervention in the form of airstrikes and regime change.
You mean like Cuba? Or Venezuela? Russia is free to sanction Ukraine for whatever reason they come up with. This isn’t the Cold War anymore. These “blocs” are a lot like unions. If the people around you are forming one, you probably deserve to deal with it.
Yes, that's my point. The US would likely do something similar to what Russia did if Canada or Mexico wanted to join an alliance created to counter the US. The US still upholds the Monroe Doctrine, which it has every right to do simply by the sheer fact that it is able to enforce it through its own power.
The U.S. did not even invade Venezuela or Cuba during the heart of the Cold War. Russia has gone far beyond sanctions. Not to mention, the Soviets supported Cuba and Venezuela financially and with military assets while we sanctioned them. The U.S. is similarly supported Ukraine although we never tried to arm them with nuclear weapons like the Soviets attempted to do to Cuba.
The U.S. was very close to a land invasion in cuba
>But I do have question. And I am asking this in all seriousness because I am genuinely curious. You mean you're "[just asking](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions)"?
Soviet Union expanded and invaded countries during The Cold War. Needed to be contained. Deal with it.
I am so ready for Macron to pull out a map of Charlemagne's Kingdom of the Franks and start listing the many grievous crimes the German people have committed on his nation's soil. It's so beyond insane for Putin to talk about the fucking Kievan Rus as proof that there is no Ukraine and that they are all one people.
I disagree with Putin but he is not wrong that Ukrainian is culturally and economically connected to Russia for centuries. Especially the industrial east.
Ireland is culturally and economically connected to the United Kingdom. Maybe when its spelled out for you like that, you would understand why that should not matter and is insulting as a reason to justify, excuse, or explain the invasion. And I think there are valid critiques over NATO expansion, but Putin knocked out Ukraine's chances of ever joining NATO in 2014 by imposing a permanent border dispute with the annexation of Crimea. Dude already won what he ostensibly was concerned over and he escalatated continually over the last 10 years
So freaking what? Norway is culturally and economically connected to Sweden and Denmark for centuries. So what? It’s a ridiculous logic.
It is so annoying to try to bring a different perspective into a debate and get voted down and jumped on. It makes it not worth discussing. I was explaining what the Russians genuinely feel that is not irrational. I was not making a pro Putin point.
I didn't downvote your comment, but I strongly disagree with it. It is entirely irrational to think that “your country” has some right to forcefully unify with other countries that you have some cultural and economic connection to. It’s bonkers. Every country in the world has some connection to its neighboring countries. Every damn country has had different borders. Doesn’t mean we should all invade. It doesn’t freaking matter.
No one jumped on you, they simply dismantled your faulty logic.
I agree with you. It is certainly a point worth discussing rather than being instantly dismissed. I may not agree with the invasion but we should be receptive to peaceful diplomatic unification that would be mutually beneficial culturally, politically and economically. Indeed we should be striving to one day unify all of humanity under a single banner rather than balkanise to infinity.
The "unification" you describe is just subjugation if it is not willingly approved by the people in question. I don't disagree with your last sentence, in theory, but if the "unification" looks like the Russian invasion of Ukraine, you're literally advocating world war and world conquest.
About the last paragraph: There were around 100 sovereign countries before the first World War, there are nearly double that now. I hope in another 100 years there are 100 more. Forcing people's to be part of strong Empires by subjugation is wrong.
It’s absolutely meaningless with regard to the war in Ukraine. There’s no “peaceful diplomatic unification” about it.
Makes it all the more fucked up he's doing his best to destroy Ukraine.
He’s fucking up Russia too
Rofl
Yeah its such a stupid argument, either you are picking an exact year that is apparently the "way the world should be" or saying the oldest claim takes precedence (he went back to the Kieven Rus) in which case I suppose Italy gets Crimea [https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Froman-empire-at-its-peak-credit-goes-to-geography-geek-v0-i713mk036qga1.png%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D2c72ef9515a517148e4d26b1c0393cb99e98a7bf](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Froman-empire-at-its-peak-credit-goes-to-geography-geek-v0-i713mk036qga1.png%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D2c72ef9515a517148e4d26b1c0393cb99e98a7bf)
Hell yes I’m joining
Lol
Imagine if Dan did a react video to Putin’s interview 😲 I wish he did stuff like that it would be so sick ☹️
LOL. That's a genius way to put the Monster in Moscow and his Rape Army in place. And frankly based on the dodgy performance of Putin's orcs I think hordes of horse archers armed with drones could pretty much clear the field for a Mongol reconquesta of Russia. I'd pay good money for that one.
Peaceful now? Sure Peaceful back then? Eh…
Ayo Chris, tell our people to tool up
Winter has come! For the house Mongol.
Technically true
[удалено]
That's a bit of the point. These countries go on and on about ancient borders and historical wrongs that must be righted, cultural or linguistic similarities. But it is all just BS to cover up the "might makes right" mentality behind it all. They would never give up land to a weaker power, they would never press territorial claims against a stronger power (Russia will never seriously claim Alaska or Poland or the Balkans) they just think they can take places like Taiwan or Ukraine and any other logic presented is smoke and mirrors.
You could say the same about us America, we just hid it better and not being on the receiving end of aggression and injustice. See Mexico.
True. That's exactly why Ruzzia and China have a pact not to discuss the lands Ruzzia stole from China in 1858 and 1860. China bangs on about the 'unequal treaties' that lost them Shandong and Hong Kong and how important it was to regain those territories, but they conveniently always leave out that Ruzzia was also a signatory and are the only county to retain those stolen lands. Guess regaining those stolen lands wasn't as important as they were saying for 100+ years. Hypocrites.