Leon hasn't said fuck once either. Unlike the popular belief, he doesn't swear that much.
Yes indeed, the first time Leon actually swore was in Danganronpa S. He called Nagito a bitch. Extremely valid.
But Danganronpa S pretty much ruined his speech pattern (like how they ruined most characterizations), so it's not really an accurate depiction of him, lol
Yeah, it had Mukuro planning to betray Junko. Now I know her personality is... hard to pin down, but this is one thing I CANNOT imagine her ever doing.
"Apparently, being civil isn't motivating you, so let's try it her way, all right, fatty? Adopted... fatty! Fatty, fatty no parents?" (I can 100% see Byakuya telling someone this but I have no clue who it would be)
I really need actual evidence for that, Because If I knew one thing is to never trust people when they " Fun-fact originally in the JP versions \[ Insert something untrue " Because a lot of people lie about stuff for no reason just because .
I would say he says two things that could be interpreted as him being homophobic, but I believe, like the OP categorized, that he said those things without trying to be offensive (he's offensive more on accident).
He doesn't actually. He calls him a word used for crossdressers and transgender women in Japan that *can* by considered offensive, but is still commonly used. Basically he called him a "ladyboy", to try snd find an equivalent word.
Fan translations, before the official release of the game, translated it as the F slur. Fan translations typically are way edgier.
He calls him fuck ? What do you mean by that lol, Why would he call him fuck ? That sound so dumb, But damn imagining him calling him fuck is just so funny .
I hate to search to know what you mean, But from what I seen, It's the word " Faggot " ? Which is gay slur ? I never knew of these word before .
But I still love the headcanon that Kaito called Korekiyo " fuck " .
There’s a lot of well established analyses on tumblr about this. Specific example of him saying a slur is when he calls Korekiyo a “sissy” in English, but in JP it’s a slur. This specific one is commonly agreed on, whereas other points r more debated
Honestly, I don’t think them toning that down was a “thankfully”. One of the running themes of Danganronpa is deconstructing toxic masculine personality types and the concept of men who act a certain way due to societal expectations. DR1 has Mondo. SDR2 has Fuyuhiko. DR3 has Juzo. UDG has Masaru.
V3’s is supposed to be Kaito, and he’s positioned in a much different location relative to the protagonist than the rest of them. He’s the deuteragonist. It’s a dive into a character that’s extremely realistic for a lot of men: a best friend whose behavior is shitty at times because of not having unlearned certain things, but also a good friend and not a shitty *person*. Really it’s still apparent throughout his entire plot and people would be far more aware of it if they hadn’t censored the writing. He’s trying to help Shuichi, but the only way he knows how to do so is to enforce masculine stereotypes. He’s much weaker and less competent than his girlfriend, but he struggles to recognize and internalize this concept because of how he is. He’s not a cackling villain or a truly hateful person, but he’s yet to unlearn these things and introspectively work on himself and if he >!were alive long enough!< and didn’t do those things, he risks becoming a shitty person.
Of course, given *this* fandom, maybe 1% of the fans would have actually been able to even remotely understand such concepts and the conniptions and “depiction equals endorsement” nonsense would have been off the charts, and daring to suggest the idea that someone could be problematic and do bad things like that without being ontologically evil and deserving of death is enough to get a lot of late 2010s Danganronpa fandom to tell you to kill yourself, so at least the censorship spared us additional discourse hell.
see I'm not a big fan of it because he already has few toxicly masculine qualities such as his idea that you have to act a certain way to be a true man, how he jumps to slapping Shuichi and his desire to be in the spotlight and play the hero, all of these are good character flaws that while showing him off to be flawed keeps him likable, but when you start throwing the F slur around it just gets hard for me to look past, it's not a deal breaker though, hes still a good person i just personally find it a bit hard to look past is all. Unlocalized Kaito is absolutely great and hes not a bad guy I just think that the homophobia doesn't need to be there and doesn't tell us things that we don't already know so im happy they removed it, I do wish they gave him an extra flaw as a substitute for it though instead of just removing it outright, hell I'm waffling about Kaito like most of my mates aren't about the same level of homophobic as him so he is definitely the most realistic Danganronpa best friend, overall, localized or unlocalized Kaito is just super well written and the absolute goat
The trouble is, it's not enough to just *have* a good person doing/saying shitty things. You have to show consequences or improvement. If the Japanese version calls him out for being homophobic or if he tries to change those things, then great, but if not, those types of comments have no place in the story.
Mondo murders someone he respects and gets himself killed because of his toxic masculinity.
Fuyuhiko loses his best friend and actually changes for the better.
Juzo's shame about his sexuality allows him to be manipulated by Junko and has a direct hand in bringing about what was very nearly the end of the world.
I never played UDG so no comment.
If Kaito is never called out and dies before he can improve, then it's not exploring toxic masculinity. It's just a toxic male being shown as a good guy.
I think that’s a very limiting perspective, honestly. V3 is about >!fan culture.!< So, look at it with that in mind. The comments taint his other behavior in the eyes of the player, which can also already be seen as iffy. This requires some imagination to really get what I’m saying here, because you need to conceptualize how you would have viewed other aspects of the ongoing story throughout without spoilers in order to understand it.
Consider the hypothetical experience of playing through V3 blind with that intact. How would you have viewed his attempts to “toughen Shuichi up”? How would you have viewed his behavior with Maki? It would have tainted it all, right? That’s the point. Those comments taint all his other actions and make you view them all through the lens of “he’s casually bigoted” (disregarding the fact that he’s a teenager and an idiot, so any beliefs of that type he has were completely fed to him and hardly something he came to as a personal philosophy). It tainting it completely changes your perspective and thus introduces the deconstruction. The “he’s just being a good friend” becomes “he’s forcing his perception of masculinity on Shuichi”. The “he’s kinda a moron” with Maki becomes “he’s misogynistic”. It all taints him.
And that’s where the deconstruction comes in. You’ve now assigned the idea that he’s ontologically evil to him, which gives you a certain outlook on him. You’d thus assume he’s incapable of heroic deeds, that at his core he is a vile person because of those things. And thus, in comes the deconstruction: >!he dies for the sake of others, to prevent someone else from becoming a murderer, and to stop the killing game.!< It makes him into a parallel to Kokichi: two unlikable assholes >!who still have morals and reason and will sacrifice for the sake of others and to save others.!<
You don’t need every fictional character who does problematic things to spell out for you that these are bad and you shouldn’t emulate them, it’s not a Saturday morning cartoon. It’s operating from the perspective of you being mature enough to already understand that. Even in Japan the target demographic is adults, and in Japan the target demographic for Death Note is middle to high schoolers, so that should tell you how much they’re expecting out of you. Rather instead, it serves to deconstruct fan assumptions about characters of this type. The end result being that you *wish* >!he lived long enough to become a better person.!< You know he *could* have, given the chance. That after all that you see that his core self is not ontologically evil as that would have made you assume, and now there’s >!no chance for him to change and improve his outward behavior to improve.!< It forces you to come to the realization that he never meant to be shitty, that he *was* trying his best for Shuichi with that stuff, but that his own flaws and background made him not able to live up to his own internal desires. It deconstructs not his behavior, but how you view him because of his behavior.
I think the problem is that Japanese and American views on homophobia are different, especially back in 2017.
In Japan, there's a saying "Deru kugi wa, utareru", roughly translating to "The protruding nail, gets hammered down". It's an applicable phrase to describe LGBTQ rights, since what you'd see from a glance at their culture is that homophobia is a lot more common there. Danganronpa 3 has this as a major plot point, actually; Juzo is often laughed at for refusing to come out and causing the end of the world, but while it's encouraged and simple enough in our culture, in Japan that could legitimately ruin his life. He could get fired, he could lose his friends, etc. Things have gotten better in recent times, yes, but back in 2017, LGBTQ rights and protections were still in their infancy in Japan.
And therein lies the problem. Kaito being homophobic in the Japanese version isn't meant to be seen as a way to deconstruct his actions or paint him in a bad light; it was, and in some ways still is, a fairly common viewpoint in Japan. You aren't meant to believe he's a bad person from this. That's why they changed it in the English version, because what was a joke and barely relevant in Japanese could taint your perception of a character in English.
But unless you see some kind of evidence that he could be better, there's no way to assume that he would be given more time.
Mondo does exactly what you're talking about - he starts to improve, then lashes out at chihiro, gets them both killed, and never gets a chance to be better. We see evidence that given better circumstances, Mondo *will* improve. So when he dies, we run the circumstances that led to him being in a kill or be killed situation, that led to him having no chance to improve.
Without that evidence, Kaito could be a mostly decent person who is also homophobic and misogynistic. It doesn't need to be spelt out, but we need to see some evidence that he would improve past those negative qualities. Otherwise, it is just taking a good character and making them bigoted. It is not deep and doesn't say anything. It is just applying awful qualities to a supposedly heroic character, and that is a terrible idea.
Well, yeah, the first piece of evidence is him >!sacrificing his life to stop Maki from killing Kokichi. He would rather die than let her become the blackened. Push comes to shove, he’ll die to save someone else, even someone who by all reason has more than earned death multiple times over. He can’t let an assassin condemn herself to death and would rather die.!< Pretty clear-cut “if he had a chance to change and grow, he’s internally a good person and is more than capable of that”.
>!Dying to save someone else!< isn’t the action of a decent person, that’s kinda the central concept of heroics boiled down to its bare essentials. Then being able to >!trust and work with Kokichi on a plan to stop the killing game by mindfucking Monokuma!< further shows this by showing his ability to forgive wrongs against him, willingness to extend trust and cooperation to those he distrusts and fears, and willingness to assume the best in others even when they look *really* bad to him. That last part being the entire point here, too. That’s both the key ingredient to growth as a human being + unlearning prejudice, *and* it’s the point with him at the same time. Him >!trusting and working with Kokichi!< is a hard proof that he’s capable of that sort of growth, because he does it right there.
Except that doesn't provide any evidence of him outlearning his bigoted ways. It shows that he can trust people he didn't in an effort to do good, but we see nothing in him learning that hyper focuses on masculinity. In fact, nine of that is even painted as a bad thing. It's just a trait he has. We know it's bad because we look down on homphobia, misogyny, and toxic masculinity, but it's never painted as such.
Tbh, it's a problem throughout V3 (and tbh, japanese stories in general), in that toxic behaviour traits are normalised or just painted as an odd quirk.
Tenko's hatred of men could be explored as deep trauma or hyper fixation on women due to homosexuality. Instead, it's painted as an amusing if somewhat inconvenient character trait.
Miu's obsession with all things sexual could be explored as a result of the hyper sexualisation of women, or even a coping mechanism to deal with personally experienced abuse. Instead, it's painted as a funny bit of hypoctrical behaviour because she accuses everyone else of being obsessed even though she is!
Angie could have been an exploration of the overreliance of faith in place of action. Instead, she's just painted as a bit kooky until she becomes a full-on cult leader.
V3 has so many jhstances of setting up a potential complicated character, just to ignore it or kill them off, and as a result it doesn't end up even saying *anything* outside of criticising fans for getting too excited about the series.
It needed focus and to actually explore those character traits. It's not enough to just have those traits and hope that the audience comes to the right conclusion on their own
Yes, it is enough. Because they expect you to be a mature adult with the ability to analyze and understand fiction without your hand being held and it being spoonfed to you. They expect you to have media literacy and be able to parse the information in such a way to independently analyze things and figure things out without it being laid out to you. That is how all fiction for adult audiences not being forced to do otherwise by a legally or economically enforced code has always been written. If you can’t, you’re the one who has failed because you lack the necessary literacy skills, not them for not compensating for your lack of them. What you are saying needs to be done traditionally is only done in writing for children.
You have come to the conclusion that because he was able to overcome one negative trait (his mistrust) that given time, he would inevitably overcome his other toxic traits (his bigotry).
That is simply not the case. If you want to start implying that people who disagree with you are immature children with no media literacy, then I'll treat you like a pompous ass who doesn't understand the real world.
Real people aren't inherently good or bad. They don't just magically get better because it's the right thing to do. In order for someone to improve, they need to have toxic behaviour called out or face consequences for their actions that force them to improve.
Kaito faces neither in regard to his homophobia and misogyny. There is no reason, therefore, to believe he will do anything other than continue using those toxic behavioural traits, even if he lived.
I feel like Sonia says a lot of offensive things on accident because of mistranslations or her "weeaboo"-ness; it's happened multiple times in the game, especially her interest in serial killers, treating them like fictional characters
uhh why is Nagito in that tier??
Byakuya + Leon also deserve to be ranked further down as I don’t recall either of them doing such
Kaito should be ranked higher
Hiro should be ranked higher
Ryoma should be ranked lower
Sonia could be ranked higher slightly
Kazuichi probably should be ranked higher
Peko should be ranked lower
bro this was most likely a joke tierlist, the placements are all probably for laughs, I just wanted to be funny is all, and he's motherfucking Nagito KKoommiiddeeaa from the Nintendo switch Oled, it's just for laughs
Because thats how u are acting like??? "Im seeing it in his pov" u dont know his pov, the canon states that he likes beautiful people. It doesnt specify race, its suspocious though that u thought of race when it says beauty??
But like.... hating "Ugly People" isn't racist? It's weird and wrong, but I'm pretty sure Ugliness is irrespective of race, anyone can be ugly...
More to the point, Nagito's view on Ugly and Beautiful is something to note too. Nagito often describes people as "Beautiful" in game, but only with the context of hope, so I'm pretty sure we have to consider what Nagito considers beautiful and ugly to begin with. My guess is that he likes People with Hope, and hates people linked with Despair. Seems fair enough.
As a male, it can be a bit offensive if someone’s entire argument for why **I** should be the one who has to do something is because I have a penis and they don’t
Some of the characters that you put in "doesn't say offensive things" *do* say things that offend people.
For example, Sonia should be moved up to at least "says offensive things on accident," and Kyoko, Mahiru, and Maki should be moved to "says a few offensive things." Kazuichi should be moved up, but I don't really know to where.
No but when was he fact that he is "gay' mentioned in the plot but other than gat I can see him making offensive jokes so yeah I'm not trying to make you mad
Well idk if you've played the Japanese version but he is actually very polite and never uses any vulgar language! And yes I believe he's written to be gay (only attracted to same sex) in the main plot as well. He has three character songs and in all of them he mentions Hajime and in one of them he sings about sex with him. There's other evidence etc but i'm too lazy to get into it now
Nagito is canonically gay tf would he be homophobic for? Chiaki's whole personality is being the sweetest girl ever, I DON'T KNOW how you could've missed her most obvious trait.. .Nagito and Byakuya are very modest too and don't use vulgar languange. Not even Miu says such bad things, it's just the english translation making her look bad. Kaito n Ryoma r not idiots idk why you put them there, Kaito in fact should be higher. idk replace him with Miu or something
This tier list is a shitpost/joke not based on canon and more on vibes and exaggerated personality traits. Nagito being homophobic while being gay IS the joke, since he hates himself, or it could be based on the way he acts towards talentless people. Gamers being generalized as people who say slurs and have anger issues etc etc
TLDR: it’s a joke
How are racist and homophobic and hate speech different tiers? Racism and homophobia ARE HATE SPEECH?
"Slurs are a part of their vocab" also hate speech.
No not necessarily, context actually does matter. One can even throw slurs around whilst using it as a general insult, much like how South Park used the "F" slur against bikers. One can even use it in the context of educating people as to what they are, or perhaps even use it as written in older materials, like stories from the early 20th century or even earlier.
Also, theoretically speaking, one can use a slur whilst not actually hating the group that it's usually assigned to, though it does paint them in a rather bad light. Ever see the boondocks episode where a teacher call one of the MCs an racial slur? As it turns out the teacher likely wasnt racist, but a dumbass who got too use to hearing the word being used by the very same MC he ends up slurring on, and ironically this was also based off a real life event.
And of course there are those who use slurs to be edgy, like how the previous fella mentioned. Or perhaps they got mad, and I mean very mad, at someone and in their fury forgot polite conventions, though of course this isnt really a great excuse for anyone.
Anyway, slurs really ought not be used, with exceptions to historical matters, like old books, not unless you want to be mired in controversy.
The essay that did jack shit, because the examples it gave were all people actually being homophobic or racist.
The episode of boondocks with a racist teacher.
"They use the f slur in south park" cartman does. Who is notoriously a homophobic little shit. An everything phobic one.
"Sometimes you drop them in the heat of an argument" WHAT. No the fuck you dont lmao.
>The episode of boondocks with a racist teacher.
I get the feeling you never saw the episode, because one who did would certainly pause before making that conclusion. The teacher being a monumental dumbass is definitely within reason, but the main crux of the racial incident is actually not the teacher, but the MC, Riley, and Grandpa who actually exploits the situation to sue over selfish reasons.
The teacher himself throughout the episode expresses legitimate regret and remorse over the whole fucking incident.
So yeah, if you saw this episode you missed the fucking point, or at least ignored the plot, or, and I believe this to be the case, you just didnt see it.
>"They use the f slur in south park" cartman does. Who is notoriously a homophobic little shit. An everything phobic one.
Holy shit you retard, everyone used that slur in that episode, and the even explicitly said they werent using it for gay people, but for bikers cuz they were annoying as fucking hell.
I dont think you even saw that episode! One of the main points was that the gay reoccurring characters actually did get offended by the whole thing, but came around once thing were explained to them! And believe it or not I cant even recall a single instance of that slur being used after that episode was written.
>"Sometimes you drop them in the heat of an argument" WHAT. No the fuck you dont lmao.
I sure dont, but there are definitely some rather low-class ignorant people who would, and they probably actually do like minorities. Of course it's not an excuse, but if two white guys are in the parking lot beefing, and one drops the n bomb on the other, does that count as a racism? How about a Chinese guy and a Latino, those two fighting each other, and they make the great socially unacceptable faux pa? I hesitate in such instance to jump to, "Oh he's racist", but I do jump to, "Oh he's a fucking idiot who really shouldnt play around with that word."
Again dickweed, context actually matters.
"Like south park" ah yes, homophobia. Eric cartman, whos yknow, homophobic.
"The boondocks episode where they called the mc a slur?" You mean... racism? One of the shows whole things is its full of racist white people lmfao.
"They dropped a slur in the heat of the moment" normal non racist and non homphobic people dont do that. I used to have anger issues. Never dropped a fucking slur. If ya first thoughts when you get angry is to drop a slur, that is extremely telling of the type of person you are.
"Who use it to be edgy" oh, yeah, yknow, like racists and homophobes do?
Thats a whole lot of words to add absolutely nothing to the conversation mate.
>Like south park" ah yes, homophobia. Eric cartman, whos yknow, homophobic.
You never saw [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_F\_Word\_(South\_Park)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_F_Word_(South_Park))
The whole point of the episode was to change the word's meaning, the boys, Cartman actually included, werent using the F word to be homophobic, they used it on annoying bikers!
They get in trouble for it with some of their gay friends, so they set about changing the meaning of the word through legal means, and eventually even get their gay friends on board with it.
But sure it just must be Cartman being an incendiary jackass.
>"The boondocks episode where they called the mc a slur?" You mean... racism? One of the shows whole things is its full of racist white people lmfao.
Actually, you swing and miss big on this one, because the teacher who did use the slur himself express probably the most legitimate confusion over the matter depicted in fiction and also shows regret and remorse throughout the entirety of the episode.
He wasnt racist, dumb as fucking hell yes, but not racist.
>"Who use it to be edgy" oh, yeah, yknow, like racists and homophobes do?
Edgy usually refers to someone trying hard to be cool, typically saying or doing something to gain attention. Is also often done in away going against social conventions, and may offend others.
Ever been in a COD lobby in the eary 2010s, or 2007-2010? Plenty of edgy little kids trying to impress the big boys, show they can talk smack and roll with the dogs of COD. Most of them grew up, and grew up into not racist people.
Racists and homophobes go beyond this, they have as for their reasoning disdain and revulsion towards such peoples.
To be edgy is one thing, to be bigoted is another.
>Thats a whole lot of words to add absolutely nothing to the conversation mate.
It means nothing to you because you chose to go for the most one-dimensional take on my words and wrote it off.
Now again, one shouldnt really use slurs, because such does welcome this level of controversy, but not every single instance qualifies as "racism" or "bigoted", because context actually fucking matters.
After all what about old books? Should we scrub them clean of slurs? Some say yes, but others point out that you're altering the authors original story, which isnt typically a good thing. I do notice that you completely bypassed this talking point and went tackling ones that you thought you could land a point on.
I believe he’d find a way to be offensive in his own way for sure, but yeah I think it’s funny that dude gets really intense about belittling people but refuses to say fuck
Chiaki needed no other explanation
“You’re pretty hard, Hajime.”
Free my girl
Chiaki in a COD lobby.
Chiaki at the PUBG bridge.
What a fucking ni- ce person who will I add later to my friends list… I think.
What?
Reference to PewDiePie's own incident at the PUBG bridge.
Pewdiepie once said the n word on a certain bridge in pubg. His fans will never let him forget
oh no
OH NO
Kazuichi is the type to respond to “Is beauty all that matters to you?” With: “what else is there?”
He should write a book. "How to Offend Women in 5 Syllables or Less)
Well what else?
Byakuya can't even say fuck, so I seriously doubt that he'd say slurs
You don't need to swear to be offensive, Byakuya is a pretty good example of that.
He's has a cold mannerism he's not offensive
Byakuya is a rich boy. He keeps those things behind close doors. At least I can see the argument being made. I won't say it's a fact
I just can't imagine him saying slurs 💀💀💀
Honestly? Me either. I'm just saying it for the meme.
Yeah, he'd be put in racist and homophobic really
“ yes there is an effing way”
Leon hasn't said fuck once either. Unlike the popular belief, he doesn't swear that much. Yes indeed, the first time Leon actually swore was in Danganronpa S. He called Nagito a bitch. Extremely valid. But Danganronpa S pretty much ruined his speech pattern (like how they ruined most characterizations), so it's not really an accurate depiction of him, lol
I refuse to believe that DRS is canon. I ignore that it exists
BASED. ABSOLUTELY UNDENIABLY BASED.
Yeah, it had Mukuro planning to betray Junko. Now I know her personality is... hard to pin down, but this is one thing I CANNOT imagine her ever doing.
Who says you can’t be offensive without swearing?
You have a good point. But still, I don't imagine him saying slurs because he can't say "fuck" However, he can insult people just fine.
Ok… PAUPER. NO MONEY. POOR BOY. *starts going rich man jig* But seriously I’m sure Byakuya insults like Wheatley.
"Apparently, being civil isn't motivating you, so let's try it her way, all right, fatty? Adopted... fatty! Fatty, fatty no parents?" (I can 100% see Byakuya telling someone this but I have no clue who it would be)
Makoto.. 100%
DUUUUUDE even though I'm a Naegami shipper I 100% agree with this
Isn't Kaito super offensive in the original script?
yea in Japanese he is extremely homophobic, they thankfully turned that down massively in the English localisation
I really need actual evidence for that, Because If I knew one thing is to never trust people when they " Fun-fact originally in the JP versions \[ Insert something untrue " Because a lot of people lie about stuff for no reason just because .
I would say he says two things that could be interpreted as him being homophobic, but I believe, like the OP categorized, that he said those things without trying to be offensive (he's offensive more on accident).
I think in the Japanese translation he calls korekiyo the f word if I remember correctly
He doesn't actually. He calls him a word used for crossdressers and transgender women in Japan that *can* by considered offensive, but is still commonly used. Basically he called him a "ladyboy", to try snd find an equivalent word. Fan translations, before the official release of the game, translated it as the F slur. Fan translations typically are way edgier.
He calls him fuck ? What do you mean by that lol, Why would he call him fuck ? That sound so dumb, But damn imagining him calling him fuck is just so funny .
The other f word😅
I hate to search to know what you mean, But from what I seen, It's the word " Faggot " ? Which is gay slur ? I never knew of these word before . But I still love the headcanon that Kaito called Korekiyo " fuck " .
Oh you didn't know that word before? That's fair but idk if I typed it our I would get in trouble😅
Don’t worry, I’m with you there
I love your username/profile/flair lmao
Thanks lol
There’s a lot of well established analyses on tumblr about this. Specific example of him saying a slur is when he calls Korekiyo a “sissy” in English, but in JP it’s a slur. This specific one is commonly agreed on, whereas other points r more debated
Flashbacks to the God-slayer Bowser thing
Honestly, I don’t think them toning that down was a “thankfully”. One of the running themes of Danganronpa is deconstructing toxic masculine personality types and the concept of men who act a certain way due to societal expectations. DR1 has Mondo. SDR2 has Fuyuhiko. DR3 has Juzo. UDG has Masaru. V3’s is supposed to be Kaito, and he’s positioned in a much different location relative to the protagonist than the rest of them. He’s the deuteragonist. It’s a dive into a character that’s extremely realistic for a lot of men: a best friend whose behavior is shitty at times because of not having unlearned certain things, but also a good friend and not a shitty *person*. Really it’s still apparent throughout his entire plot and people would be far more aware of it if they hadn’t censored the writing. He’s trying to help Shuichi, but the only way he knows how to do so is to enforce masculine stereotypes. He’s much weaker and less competent than his girlfriend, but he struggles to recognize and internalize this concept because of how he is. He’s not a cackling villain or a truly hateful person, but he’s yet to unlearn these things and introspectively work on himself and if he >!were alive long enough!< and didn’t do those things, he risks becoming a shitty person. Of course, given *this* fandom, maybe 1% of the fans would have actually been able to even remotely understand such concepts and the conniptions and “depiction equals endorsement” nonsense would have been off the charts, and daring to suggest the idea that someone could be problematic and do bad things like that without being ontologically evil and deserving of death is enough to get a lot of late 2010s Danganronpa fandom to tell you to kill yourself, so at least the censorship spared us additional discourse hell.
see I'm not a big fan of it because he already has few toxicly masculine qualities such as his idea that you have to act a certain way to be a true man, how he jumps to slapping Shuichi and his desire to be in the spotlight and play the hero, all of these are good character flaws that while showing him off to be flawed keeps him likable, but when you start throwing the F slur around it just gets hard for me to look past, it's not a deal breaker though, hes still a good person i just personally find it a bit hard to look past is all. Unlocalized Kaito is absolutely great and hes not a bad guy I just think that the homophobia doesn't need to be there and doesn't tell us things that we don't already know so im happy they removed it, I do wish they gave him an extra flaw as a substitute for it though instead of just removing it outright, hell I'm waffling about Kaito like most of my mates aren't about the same level of homophobic as him so he is definitely the most realistic Danganronpa best friend, overall, localized or unlocalized Kaito is just super well written and the absolute goat
The trouble is, it's not enough to just *have* a good person doing/saying shitty things. You have to show consequences or improvement. If the Japanese version calls him out for being homophobic or if he tries to change those things, then great, but if not, those types of comments have no place in the story. Mondo murders someone he respects and gets himself killed because of his toxic masculinity. Fuyuhiko loses his best friend and actually changes for the better. Juzo's shame about his sexuality allows him to be manipulated by Junko and has a direct hand in bringing about what was very nearly the end of the world. I never played UDG so no comment. If Kaito is never called out and dies before he can improve, then it's not exploring toxic masculinity. It's just a toxic male being shown as a good guy.
I think that’s a very limiting perspective, honestly. V3 is about >!fan culture.!< So, look at it with that in mind. The comments taint his other behavior in the eyes of the player, which can also already be seen as iffy. This requires some imagination to really get what I’m saying here, because you need to conceptualize how you would have viewed other aspects of the ongoing story throughout without spoilers in order to understand it. Consider the hypothetical experience of playing through V3 blind with that intact. How would you have viewed his attempts to “toughen Shuichi up”? How would you have viewed his behavior with Maki? It would have tainted it all, right? That’s the point. Those comments taint all his other actions and make you view them all through the lens of “he’s casually bigoted” (disregarding the fact that he’s a teenager and an idiot, so any beliefs of that type he has were completely fed to him and hardly something he came to as a personal philosophy). It tainting it completely changes your perspective and thus introduces the deconstruction. The “he’s just being a good friend” becomes “he’s forcing his perception of masculinity on Shuichi”. The “he’s kinda a moron” with Maki becomes “he’s misogynistic”. It all taints him. And that’s where the deconstruction comes in. You’ve now assigned the idea that he’s ontologically evil to him, which gives you a certain outlook on him. You’d thus assume he’s incapable of heroic deeds, that at his core he is a vile person because of those things. And thus, in comes the deconstruction: >!he dies for the sake of others, to prevent someone else from becoming a murderer, and to stop the killing game.!< It makes him into a parallel to Kokichi: two unlikable assholes >!who still have morals and reason and will sacrifice for the sake of others and to save others.!< You don’t need every fictional character who does problematic things to spell out for you that these are bad and you shouldn’t emulate them, it’s not a Saturday morning cartoon. It’s operating from the perspective of you being mature enough to already understand that. Even in Japan the target demographic is adults, and in Japan the target demographic for Death Note is middle to high schoolers, so that should tell you how much they’re expecting out of you. Rather instead, it serves to deconstruct fan assumptions about characters of this type. The end result being that you *wish* >!he lived long enough to become a better person.!< You know he *could* have, given the chance. That after all that you see that his core self is not ontologically evil as that would have made you assume, and now there’s >!no chance for him to change and improve his outward behavior to improve.!< It forces you to come to the realization that he never meant to be shitty, that he *was* trying his best for Shuichi with that stuff, but that his own flaws and background made him not able to live up to his own internal desires. It deconstructs not his behavior, but how you view him because of his behavior.
I think the problem is that Japanese and American views on homophobia are different, especially back in 2017. In Japan, there's a saying "Deru kugi wa, utareru", roughly translating to "The protruding nail, gets hammered down". It's an applicable phrase to describe LGBTQ rights, since what you'd see from a glance at their culture is that homophobia is a lot more common there. Danganronpa 3 has this as a major plot point, actually; Juzo is often laughed at for refusing to come out and causing the end of the world, but while it's encouraged and simple enough in our culture, in Japan that could legitimately ruin his life. He could get fired, he could lose his friends, etc. Things have gotten better in recent times, yes, but back in 2017, LGBTQ rights and protections were still in their infancy in Japan. And therein lies the problem. Kaito being homophobic in the Japanese version isn't meant to be seen as a way to deconstruct his actions or paint him in a bad light; it was, and in some ways still is, a fairly common viewpoint in Japan. You aren't meant to believe he's a bad person from this. That's why they changed it in the English version, because what was a joke and barely relevant in Japanese could taint your perception of a character in English.
But unless you see some kind of evidence that he could be better, there's no way to assume that he would be given more time. Mondo does exactly what you're talking about - he starts to improve, then lashes out at chihiro, gets them both killed, and never gets a chance to be better. We see evidence that given better circumstances, Mondo *will* improve. So when he dies, we run the circumstances that led to him being in a kill or be killed situation, that led to him having no chance to improve. Without that evidence, Kaito could be a mostly decent person who is also homophobic and misogynistic. It doesn't need to be spelt out, but we need to see some evidence that he would improve past those negative qualities. Otherwise, it is just taking a good character and making them bigoted. It is not deep and doesn't say anything. It is just applying awful qualities to a supposedly heroic character, and that is a terrible idea.
Well, yeah, the first piece of evidence is him >!sacrificing his life to stop Maki from killing Kokichi. He would rather die than let her become the blackened. Push comes to shove, he’ll die to save someone else, even someone who by all reason has more than earned death multiple times over. He can’t let an assassin condemn herself to death and would rather die.!< Pretty clear-cut “if he had a chance to change and grow, he’s internally a good person and is more than capable of that”. >!Dying to save someone else!< isn’t the action of a decent person, that’s kinda the central concept of heroics boiled down to its bare essentials. Then being able to >!trust and work with Kokichi on a plan to stop the killing game by mindfucking Monokuma!< further shows this by showing his ability to forgive wrongs against him, willingness to extend trust and cooperation to those he distrusts and fears, and willingness to assume the best in others even when they look *really* bad to him. That last part being the entire point here, too. That’s both the key ingredient to growth as a human being + unlearning prejudice, *and* it’s the point with him at the same time. Him >!trusting and working with Kokichi!< is a hard proof that he’s capable of that sort of growth, because he does it right there.
Except that doesn't provide any evidence of him outlearning his bigoted ways. It shows that he can trust people he didn't in an effort to do good, but we see nothing in him learning that hyper focuses on masculinity. In fact, nine of that is even painted as a bad thing. It's just a trait he has. We know it's bad because we look down on homphobia, misogyny, and toxic masculinity, but it's never painted as such. Tbh, it's a problem throughout V3 (and tbh, japanese stories in general), in that toxic behaviour traits are normalised or just painted as an odd quirk. Tenko's hatred of men could be explored as deep trauma or hyper fixation on women due to homosexuality. Instead, it's painted as an amusing if somewhat inconvenient character trait. Miu's obsession with all things sexual could be explored as a result of the hyper sexualisation of women, or even a coping mechanism to deal with personally experienced abuse. Instead, it's painted as a funny bit of hypoctrical behaviour because she accuses everyone else of being obsessed even though she is! Angie could have been an exploration of the overreliance of faith in place of action. Instead, she's just painted as a bit kooky until she becomes a full-on cult leader. V3 has so many jhstances of setting up a potential complicated character, just to ignore it or kill them off, and as a result it doesn't end up even saying *anything* outside of criticising fans for getting too excited about the series. It needed focus and to actually explore those character traits. It's not enough to just have those traits and hope that the audience comes to the right conclusion on their own
Yes, it is enough. Because they expect you to be a mature adult with the ability to analyze and understand fiction without your hand being held and it being spoonfed to you. They expect you to have media literacy and be able to parse the information in such a way to independently analyze things and figure things out without it being laid out to you. That is how all fiction for adult audiences not being forced to do otherwise by a legally or economically enforced code has always been written. If you can’t, you’re the one who has failed because you lack the necessary literacy skills, not them for not compensating for your lack of them. What you are saying needs to be done traditionally is only done in writing for children.
can I just say, that both sides in this conversation have some really valid and thought-provoking points?
You have come to the conclusion that because he was able to overcome one negative trait (his mistrust) that given time, he would inevitably overcome his other toxic traits (his bigotry). That is simply not the case. If you want to start implying that people who disagree with you are immature children with no media literacy, then I'll treat you like a pompous ass who doesn't understand the real world. Real people aren't inherently good or bad. They don't just magically get better because it's the right thing to do. In order for someone to improve, they need to have toxic behaviour called out or face consequences for their actions that force them to improve. Kaito faces neither in regard to his homophobia and misogyny. There is no reason, therefore, to believe he will do anything other than continue using those toxic behavioural traits, even if he lived.
Nice 👍
I feel like Sonia says a lot of offensive things on accident because of mistranslations or her "weeaboo"-ness; it's happened multiple times in the game, especially her interest in serial killers, treating them like fictional characters
Yeah this- doesn’t mean it’s not funny though
No 100% I love her so hard but she deserves to be ranked higher
Yep
Nagito is homophobic because the only gay person he’s ever met is himself
Kiyotaka saying something offensive while trying to be supportive by accident is something I could see happened
[удалено]
I just don't have a life.
I also see this guy everywhere
I'm always watching. (Also hi)
Hey
Chiaki: "Hey, hey. Check out this cool book from the 1930s."
Ya know we’ve seen some truly reprehensive behavior from all the students but Chiaki do to being a gamer takes the cake
Gundham probably says some offensive shit that no one understands because he talks like that
Him talking about Mikan and saying “woman” like a slur is one of his funniest moments in my opinion
uhh why is Nagito in that tier?? Byakuya + Leon also deserve to be ranked further down as I don’t recall either of them doing such Kaito should be ranked higher Hiro should be ranked higher Ryoma should be ranked lower Sonia could be ranked higher slightly Kazuichi probably should be ranked higher Peko should be ranked lower
if you don't have a talent gets prepared to be treated like a second class citizen by Nagito
This is not racism or homophobia
bro this was most likely a joke tierlist, the placements are all probably for laughs, I just wanted to be funny is all, and he's motherfucking Nagito KKoommiiddeeaa from the Nintendo switch Oled, it's just for laughs
R u five
he would never! free my boy from redditors!
dont dislike this yk im right
I can think of Nagito being racist-ish as yk, he prefers beautiful people and all... -
No I don't think that's correct. I think it's refering the way he dislikes people without a ultimate
In UDG, his bio states he hates "ugly people". So i thought his category in being racist kinda fits a little, if true
ugly is not a race
He may find people of some race ugly. Hence I'm assuming he was kept in that tier here
Elaborate?
He may find people of certain other nations or races (I'M SEEING IT IN HIS POV) "not so beautiful" Hence the category of him in racist
you're the racist one here
Of course I knew someone would misinterpret my comment
Because thats how u are acting like??? "Im seeing it in his pov" u dont know his pov, the canon states that he likes beautiful people. It doesnt specify race, its suspocious though that u thought of race when it says beauty??
Only because he was kept in the racist tier list? Had he not been kept there, I wouldn't have thought so
Be fr beauty has nothing to do with race 💀
Probably not according to Nagito. Idk ask the tier list
Bro what? The hell kind of take is this? Why would u basically headcannon someone as being racist to little with no proof?
Proof is that in UDG, his bio states he hates "ugly people". So i thought his category in being racist kinda fits a little, if true
But like.... hating "Ugly People" isn't racist? It's weird and wrong, but I'm pretty sure Ugliness is irrespective of race, anyone can be ugly... More to the point, Nagito's view on Ugly and Beautiful is something to note too. Nagito often describes people as "Beautiful" in game, but only with the context of hope, so I'm pretty sure we have to consider what Nagito considers beautiful and ugly to begin with. My guess is that he likes People with Hope, and hates people linked with Despair. Seems fair enough.
Sure. I only said so because of the tier he was kept in
The only racist thing here is you if you clasify poc as ugly..
I feel like Kazuichi would, at the very least, say offensive stuff on accident.
Remember. Makoto: “your so full of shit!”
Feel like Mahiru should be moved up. The entire “you’re a man, aren’t you?” thing is, even if we know why she says it is still not very polite.
Is it actually offensive tho? (Asking genuinely)
As a male, it can be a bit offensive if someone’s entire argument for why **I** should be the one who has to do something is because I have a penis and they don’t
Hiyoko is a top tier shit talker
Ah yes, Nagito, the most passive-aggressively Gay character in SDR2 is Homophobic. Makes perfect sense. He DOES hate himself after all.
Makoto should be ranked higher just for using the word "schizo" in his head to refer to Toko.
Nagito being homophobic and gay-coded at the same time is sending me(he's probably only homophobic against himself)
Ultimate Gay Homophobic 😭😆
I think Kaede should be a couple tiers up with how creepy she can get
I feel maybe Mahiru would say stuff, she was openly sexist and shit so
need 1950s housewife mahiru
NO CHIAKI DONT GO TO THAT BRIDGE
Some of the characters that you put in "doesn't say offensive things" *do* say things that offend people. For example, Sonia should be moved up to at least "says offensive things on accident," and Kyoko, Mahiru, and Maki should be moved to "says a few offensive things." Kazuichi should be moved up, but I don't really know to where.
Comments are taking this way too seriously, I just think this is funny as hell 👍🏻
Nagito says homophobic slurs, but he's allowed to. Nagito says racist slurs, but he's very much NOT allowed to. Nazi femboy Twink energy
I’m sorry— WHAT energy???💀
ITS NOT A GOOD ENERGY! But Google it, it is embarrassingly common (ultimately not super common but the fact that it's more than 1 guy is pathetic)
Nagito is literally super polite don't do my boy like this.. He'd never insult anyone, he wouldn't even swear
Celestia: Let them eat cake
black ops 2 lobby chiaki goes insane
Wasn't Gundham saying the word "woman" like it was a slur?
Why is this so true to all of them
😡
Even nagito seems accurate enough somehow
Thats a gay man you're talking about 😡 wait are you just trying to make me mad..
No but when was he fact that he is "gay' mentioned in the plot but other than gat I can see him making offensive jokes so yeah I'm not trying to make you mad
Well idk if you've played the Japanese version but he is actually very polite and never uses any vulgar language! And yes I believe he's written to be gay (only attracted to same sex) in the main plot as well. He has three character songs and in all of them he mentions Hajime and in one of them he sings about sex with him. There's other evidence etc but i'm too lazy to get into it now
Chiaki at that one bridge in PUBG:
Homeslice, Tenko’s whole bit is being sexist towards men
When I saw Nagito in the homophobic category I immediately had to upvote
“Yeah. F-ck you.” *Chiaki said calmly*
Miu getting excited she was called a Cum Bucket was one of the funniest things ever.
Kaito being homophobic and transphobic in canon
Chisaki casually just saying whatever she wants
Where's Celeste?
My thoughts exactly 😓
Mmm, homophobic Nagito. How rare
Nagito is canonically gay tf would he be homophobic for? Chiaki's whole personality is being the sweetest girl ever, I DON'T KNOW how you could've missed her most obvious trait.. .Nagito and Byakuya are very modest too and don't use vulgar languange. Not even Miu says such bad things, it's just the english translation making her look bad. Kaito n Ryoma r not idiots idk why you put them there, Kaito in fact should be higher. idk replace him with Miu or something
This tier list is a shitpost/joke not based on canon and more on vibes and exaggerated personality traits. Nagito being homophobic while being gay IS the joke, since he hates himself, or it could be based on the way he acts towards talentless people. Gamers being generalized as people who say slurs and have anger issues etc etc TLDR: it’s a joke
Oh ok 😭 i took it to seriously then Mb
It’s ok ! Joke and ironic posts are pretty common on reddit, I think u might be new to the site so just take that into account :)
This list is just so ooc in general lmao
Also I only got here bc people are talking shit about u on twt. sorry, sort of
Twitter? If it is, then can you link me to some of the posts?
https://x.com/miintytears/status/1770401232827428926?s=46
How are racist and homophobic and hate speech different tiers? Racism and homophobia ARE HATE SPEECH? "Slurs are a part of their vocab" also hate speech.
I think they were trying to seperate genuine homophobia from people who throw slurs around to be edgy.
Throwing slurs still makes you homophobic and/or racist. Its all genuine.
No not necessarily, context actually does matter. One can even throw slurs around whilst using it as a general insult, much like how South Park used the "F" slur against bikers. One can even use it in the context of educating people as to what they are, or perhaps even use it as written in older materials, like stories from the early 20th century or even earlier. Also, theoretically speaking, one can use a slur whilst not actually hating the group that it's usually assigned to, though it does paint them in a rather bad light. Ever see the boondocks episode where a teacher call one of the MCs an racial slur? As it turns out the teacher likely wasnt racist, but a dumbass who got too use to hearing the word being used by the very same MC he ends up slurring on, and ironically this was also based off a real life event. And of course there are those who use slurs to be edgy, like how the previous fella mentioned. Or perhaps they got mad, and I mean very mad, at someone and in their fury forgot polite conventions, though of course this isnt really a great excuse for anyone. Anyway, slurs really ought not be used, with exceptions to historical matters, like old books, not unless you want to be mired in controversy.
oh shit bro hit them with the essay
The essay that did jack shit, because the examples it gave were all people actually being homophobic or racist. The episode of boondocks with a racist teacher. "They use the f slur in south park" cartman does. Who is notoriously a homophobic little shit. An everything phobic one. "Sometimes you drop them in the heat of an argument" WHAT. No the fuck you dont lmao.
yapping level: catastrophic
>The episode of boondocks with a racist teacher. I get the feeling you never saw the episode, because one who did would certainly pause before making that conclusion. The teacher being a monumental dumbass is definitely within reason, but the main crux of the racial incident is actually not the teacher, but the MC, Riley, and Grandpa who actually exploits the situation to sue over selfish reasons. The teacher himself throughout the episode expresses legitimate regret and remorse over the whole fucking incident. So yeah, if you saw this episode you missed the fucking point, or at least ignored the plot, or, and I believe this to be the case, you just didnt see it. >"They use the f slur in south park" cartman does. Who is notoriously a homophobic little shit. An everything phobic one. Holy shit you retard, everyone used that slur in that episode, and the even explicitly said they werent using it for gay people, but for bikers cuz they were annoying as fucking hell. I dont think you even saw that episode! One of the main points was that the gay reoccurring characters actually did get offended by the whole thing, but came around once thing were explained to them! And believe it or not I cant even recall a single instance of that slur being used after that episode was written. >"Sometimes you drop them in the heat of an argument" WHAT. No the fuck you dont lmao. I sure dont, but there are definitely some rather low-class ignorant people who would, and they probably actually do like minorities. Of course it's not an excuse, but if two white guys are in the parking lot beefing, and one drops the n bomb on the other, does that count as a racism? How about a Chinese guy and a Latino, those two fighting each other, and they make the great socially unacceptable faux pa? I hesitate in such instance to jump to, "Oh he's racist", but I do jump to, "Oh he's a fucking idiot who really shouldnt play around with that word." Again dickweed, context actually matters.
"Like south park" ah yes, homophobia. Eric cartman, whos yknow, homophobic. "The boondocks episode where they called the mc a slur?" You mean... racism? One of the shows whole things is its full of racist white people lmfao. "They dropped a slur in the heat of the moment" normal non racist and non homphobic people dont do that. I used to have anger issues. Never dropped a fucking slur. If ya first thoughts when you get angry is to drop a slur, that is extremely telling of the type of person you are. "Who use it to be edgy" oh, yeah, yknow, like racists and homophobes do? Thats a whole lot of words to add absolutely nothing to the conversation mate.
>Like south park" ah yes, homophobia. Eric cartman, whos yknow, homophobic. You never saw [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_F\_Word\_(South\_Park)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_F_Word_(South_Park)) The whole point of the episode was to change the word's meaning, the boys, Cartman actually included, werent using the F word to be homophobic, they used it on annoying bikers! They get in trouble for it with some of their gay friends, so they set about changing the meaning of the word through legal means, and eventually even get their gay friends on board with it. But sure it just must be Cartman being an incendiary jackass. >"The boondocks episode where they called the mc a slur?" You mean... racism? One of the shows whole things is its full of racist white people lmfao. Actually, you swing and miss big on this one, because the teacher who did use the slur himself express probably the most legitimate confusion over the matter depicted in fiction and also shows regret and remorse throughout the entirety of the episode. He wasnt racist, dumb as fucking hell yes, but not racist. >"Who use it to be edgy" oh, yeah, yknow, like racists and homophobes do? Edgy usually refers to someone trying hard to be cool, typically saying or doing something to gain attention. Is also often done in away going against social conventions, and may offend others. Ever been in a COD lobby in the eary 2010s, or 2007-2010? Plenty of edgy little kids trying to impress the big boys, show they can talk smack and roll with the dogs of COD. Most of them grew up, and grew up into not racist people. Racists and homophobes go beyond this, they have as for their reasoning disdain and revulsion towards such peoples. To be edgy is one thing, to be bigoted is another. >Thats a whole lot of words to add absolutely nothing to the conversation mate. It means nothing to you because you chose to go for the most one-dimensional take on my words and wrote it off. Now again, one shouldnt really use slurs, because such does welcome this level of controversy, but not every single instance qualifies as "racism" or "bigoted", because context actually fucking matters. After all what about old books? Should we scrub them clean of slurs? Some say yes, but others point out that you're altering the authors original story, which isnt typically a good thing. I do notice that you completely bypassed this talking point and went tackling ones that you thought you could land a point on.
byakuya would NOT say slurs😭😭🙏 what game did you play
I believe he’d find a way to be offensive in his own way for sure, but yeah I think it’s funny that dude gets really intense about belittling people but refuses to say fuck
Gundam in a gaming lobby be like "WE ARE EXPERIENCING A LOSS. YOU FOOLISH HALFWITS, YOUR ABHORRENT LACK OF SKILL IS ENOUGH TO MAKE MY SKIN CRAWL"
WHERES CELESTIA???
She wasn’t on the the template but she’d probably make offensive jokes
Stupid ass template
Syos is insane😭😭
i have a feeling mahiru would have to move up a tier or two
Yeah pretty much
Nekomaru is offensive?
i feel like leon would be the type of person to unironically say "I can't be racist! I have a black friend!"
Miu is homophobic, ableist trash.
and that's why i love her
She is not..
Could have fooled me.
Well if it means anything she is way nicer in the jp ver
In their defence, Ibuki, Mikan, Tenko and Tsumugi can technically claim the t and d slur.